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On this day in 1881: The Earp brothers faced off against the Clanton-McLaury gang in the shootout at the OK Corral in Tombstone, Ariz.
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back to top96 Comments to “Whirled Views 10.26”
Good morning everyone. Hope you have a wonderful day. Today the guy I showed the house to is going to make an offer. Hopefully the bank will take it. It is a foreclosure. I have lots of phone calls to make today seeing who else I can talk into purchasing a house. Any house. Maybe today we can avoid a shoot out at World Magazine Blog…
As I talk to people in various walks of life they are all scared of this economy and the direction I country is headed. I personally used to roll my eyes when my father would start telling me what was going to happen in the future to our country now I am realizing he had a lot of foresight. Our rights and freedoms are slowly being eroded away and as Random sometimes says wer
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we are the frogs in the pot of water and it is slowly starting to feel warm. We are all complacent and happy in our warm water, not shivering too much. Anyway, enough of my moreseness…time to look to the future of paying bills, take the Darling Daughter to school and get busy.
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KIM: The history of the rise and fall of great nations is repeating itself.
“Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots; but we will remember the name of the Lord our God.” Ps. 20:7
May the Lord’s abundant glory shine upon everyone’s day.
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Kim post 1,
good luck with the house!
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Any fans of old TV Westerns? Remember the Life and Legend of Wyatt Earp, from ‘55-’61, starring Hugh O’brien?
Life and Times of Wyatt Earp
I’ll tell you a story a real true life story
A tale of the Western frontier.
The West, it was lawless,
but one man was flawless
and his is the story you’ll hear.
Wyatt Earp, Wyatt Earp,
Brave courageous and bold.
Long live his fame and long life his glory
and long may his story be told.
Well he cleaned up the country
The old wild west country
He made law and order prevail.
And none can deny it
The legend of Wyatt
Forever will live on the trail.
Wyatt Earp, Wyatt Earp,
Brave courageous and bold.
Long live his fame and long life his glory
and long may his story be told.
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China is in its ascendancy again. It holds our debt. No society survives this much in debt. And I don’t just mean money debt either.
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Like Cheryl D, I did not see the movies on JonRowe’s list except for Annie Hall, which I didn’t like. Woody Allen’s movies are boring to me. I did work with a lawyer who used to claim that he was one of the people Animal House was based on.
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I’m praying for sweet AnnieO. She has no idea how close she is…
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From The Bad Idea File, a Wall Street Journal article suggests decriminalizing insider trading. The thesis seems to be that everyone is doing it, it’s impossible to police anyway, and actually would produce a more efficient market.
To which I say, baloney.
Get the whole thing here; http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704224004574489324091790350.html#mod=todays_us_nonsub_weekendjournal
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Good Morning Folks. I hope everyone had a restful productive weekend.
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Kim, did you send the problem you mentioned Friday back into left field?
Now, go sell a house.
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#7 in a series of meditations on Staring at the Sun, a book by existentialist shrink Irvin D. Yalom.
Dr. Yalom quotes John Gardner, author of Grendal, “Everything fades; alternatives exclude.”
In terms of the last part of the aphorism, Yalom comments that when we are young and at the height of our powers, we want to accomplish everything and consume everything. Men often want to be with every woman. Women want to have a multitude of babies.
However, by trying to do everything, we serve nothing well. A good relationship generally requires excluding other partners and concentrating on the one we have, though even with the best possible effort many people have to try more than once to establish a good relationship. Certainly, it is possible to be a good parent to more than one child, but having a multitude of children often means neglect and unfairness to some of them.
Life demands choices and exclusions. Religious believers imagine a God who encompasses everything and a Heaven where there is time enough to learn everything and accomplish everything and experience everything. We dry and somber atheists figure we just have to deal with the fact we can’t have it all, so I will finish today’s meditation with the words of the Loving Spoonful musical group:
Did You Ever Have to Make Up Your Mind?
Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Pick up on one and leave the other one behind
It’s not often easy, and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Did you ever have to finally decide?
Say yes to one and let the other one ride
There’s so many changes, and tears you must hide
Did you ever have to finally decide?
Sometimes there’s one with deep blue eyes, cute as a bunny
With hair down to here, and plenty of money
And just when you think she’s that one in the world
Your heart gets stolen by some mousy little girl
And then you know you better make up your mind
Pick up on one and leave the other one behind
It’s not often easy, and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Sometimes you really dig a girl the moment you kiss her
And then you get distracted by her older sister
When in walks her father and takes you in line
And says “Better go home, son, and make up your mind.”
Then you bet you’d better finally decide!
And say yes to one and let the other one ride
There’s so many changes, and tears you must hide
Did you ever have to finally decide?
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Now there’s something Thomas1 and I can agree on — insider trading. Talk about the rich getting richer. I cannot tell you how this was drummed into our heads in law school, how bad insider trading is. If anything, they should track it better.
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I tried to send the problem back into left field but it emailed me Saturday night through facebook, telling me I could have anythingthing I wanted…I have chosen to ignore it and hope it goes away for another year.
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We spent the weekend in Colorado Springs, sitting around a wood stove telling stories with dear friends. Very relaxing, very entertaining (with three writers and two naval officers how could the stories not be terrific?), very encouraging (all long-time, as in 35+ years, Christians) and emotionally satisfying.
We had to return because of jobs and teenage girls, but I had fleeting moments of wistfulness–surely the snow would thicken and we’d have a snow day stuck in the woods?
We attended a very large church yesterday and I was very disappointed the pastor, the son of a Lutheran “high church” pastor whom he described as “one of the coolest guys around,” felt it necessary to take hits at the Lutheran Church. It made it difficult for me to listen to the valuable truth he shared about raising children in his teaching. The hip, cynical tone, I thought, undercut his message.
It also bothered me to see an armed guard standing in the lobby, but our friends explained that in Colorado Springs–where at least one church shooting took place–the guard was an unfortunately necessary need.
Only two narrow doors in and out–I thought that a safety hazard, too, but then wondered if I was being too curmudgeonly critical after the sermon.
All of this is to say, I’m wondering if cynicism is sin. For a variety of reasons I tend toward the cynical–but I wonder if I’m feeding a root of bitterness when I head in that direction. We should have discussed this idea more over the weekend with friends I trust–but what do you folks think?
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Michelle: I’ve been bothered as well hearing some believers routinely dismiss or outright put down “denominations.” I realize it was (and is in some circles) popular to say you belong to no denomination, but these mega church affiliations are, in fact, denominations — and ones that aren’t often run very well at that.
The older I get, the more I come to see the wisdom, for example, in the Presbyterian denomination in which I’ve been a member: high educational standards for its leaders, a group of elders who together make decisions (not just the pastor) and holding to the historic creeds and confessions of the Christian church.
So much of contemporary Christianity lives in a vacuum, as if they’d invented it all.
Anyway, glad to hear you had such an enjoyable time away, it sounds wonderful.
NJLawyer, thanks for the prayers for AnnieO — she must have been around some very nice dogs at some point. Mine are nice, but they are so not used to being this close to an actual cat that you can almost see them fighting not to do what might come natural! I’m still separating everyone when I’m not around to watch, of course.
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Kim, I hope that house sells. And I hear you regarding your new-found appreciation for your dad’s longer-range perspective on things.
I’m concerned as well about where we are headed, but realize that nations come and go, always have, always will until the end of time. Most likely, the U.S. ultimately will be no different. And with that realization, I say a strong “amen” to Roger’s verse posted above:
“Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots; but we will remember the name of the Lord our God.” Ps. 20:7
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I think it would be good if we who believe, would be careful of the tendancy to be critical of the critical. I Cor. 13 comes to mind.
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Cynical Michelle,
Depends on your definition. If you are exercising distrust of human nature, makes sense because that is what human nature warrants. If you are being captious, sounds like a sin. This from one who tends toward cynical thinking.
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Michelle, I think that pastor’s attitude has no place in a pulpit. Undercutting his message with cynicism and trying to sound “hip” probably affected more people than only you. I hope he heard from a member of the congregation he’s accountable to. Sometimes it’s hard not to have “roast pastor” for sunday dinner, but in discussing sermon points in a more civil manner than delivered can be like walking on eggs as cynicism breeds more cynicism.
The chicken & egg question is, which comes first – bitterness or cynicism? In thinking about what’s sinful, I wonder if it’s a matter of degree and could go on with a lot of “ifs” on that. Good question.
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From the SF Chronicle, via Drudge.
Authorities say a 37-year-old Los Angeles man has been arrested on suspicion of murder for the death of an unborn child believed to be his.
You can find the link on Drudge.
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#18 Wise words Roger.
I’m off for a week (or almost a week) to Tennessee. While I’m gone I hope Kim sells the house, Mumsee catches a dozen mice, and Chas finishes that hilareous book. Chas your quotes have made me so homesick, I’m sure it will take the whole week away to cure it.
Be well all.
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Godspeed, DJ!
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Bitterness! Oh no, not again!
I got in trouble for talking about bitterness on the “Understanding the ‘Worship Wars’ ” thread this weekend.
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Wait a minute.
It’s Monday already, isn’t it? I guess that’s just sinking in. Sigh. Time to put on the coffee and get the dogs out ….
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Have any of you ever had anyone in your church dance down an aisle during the worship/song service?
What was/would be the reaction from the rest of the congregation?
What did/would you think?
Did/would someone try to stop the dancing person?
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Donna – Have a good day.
Kim – Sell that house! (Prayed for ya.)
Everyone else – Have a blessed day that brings you even closer to God.
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Karen: I think it would be seen as self-indulgence. Public worship is a corporate act, one that is engaged in together as a body. If one individual breaks out and starts “doing his own thing,” this would be rightly seen as a disruption.
All eyes would be on that person. Not on God.
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Friends,
Check out my blogs where I uncover a letter where John Adams terms Christianity the most bloody religion that ever existed.
As he wrote to here to F. A. VANDERKEMP, 27 December, 1816:
Christianity, you will say, was a fresh revelation. I will not deny this. As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed? How has it happened that all the fine arts, architecture, painting, sculpture, statuary, music, poetry, and oratory, have been prostituted, from the creation of the world, to the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?
Strangely enough, Adams considered himself a “Christian,” albeit one who categorically rejected original sin, the trinity, incarnation, atonement, eternal damnation and infallibility of the Bible.
There is also a tendency for Christian Nationalists, when confronted with quotes like this, to punt and blame it all on Roman Catholicism. And while indeed, Adams was virtually an anti-Roman Catholic bigot, he was clear that he had a problem with the whole system of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity in general. He blames the Roman Catholic Church for creating what he saw as the false doctrine of the Trinity. He likewise thought the Bible itself was an errant and corrupted book.
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College Football Results:
Chas is the winner going away this week, as he got all but the tie breaker correct. Everyone else missed at least one non-tie breaker game.
So, Chas, here are two digital s’mores. Make sure Elvera gets one!
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KarenO : Have any of you ever had anyone in your church dance down an aisle during the worship/song service? What was/would be the reaction from the rest of the congregation?
DonnaJ: Karen: I think it would be seen as self-indulgence.
Interestingly, there’s documentation of exactly that: 2 Samuel 6:16: “As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.”
But David didn’t care: v. 21 – 22: “…I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this….”
For calling the worship of God “undignified,” Michal suffered some indignity of her own: v.23: “ And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.”
I bailed out of the Worship Wars thread early, but I suspect this passage came up. If nothing else, it should make us cautious as we criticize the ways other people worship, lest we be found caring more for dignity than the worship of God.
A woman once danced down the aisle at our church (PCA, no less). We were walking forward to give donations for a special cause. The woman, a Nigerian, was overjoyed at the privilege of giving and couldn’t just walk. We all shared her joy. I never heard a critical word.
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When hubby and I started dating he was a member of a CEC church and I often attended with him. I liked the people and didn’t have too much trouble with the doctrine, but a lot of the members were ex-Baptist and would make snide remarks about the Baptist Church. Sometimes I wanted to say, “You know some of us are still Baptist and quiet happy about it.” But I kept my mouth shut until I got him married up and tricked into coming to church with me.
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Peter, thanks. I really should also get an ‘attaboy because both the Boilermakers and Gamecocks also won. Though they were both ugly games.
The Purdue/Illinois game was one of the ugliest big-time games I’ve ever seen. There were some good runs, but that was because of poor tackeling. The tackeling made the runners look good on both sides.
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“Have any of you ever had anyone in your church dance down an aisle during the worship/song service? What was/would be the reaction from the rest of the congregation?”
Some of my family are pentecostal where that is not only acceptable but encouraged.
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I’m still holding out for the Angels.
I know that’s a different sport altogether.
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KBells — or even mandatory? I remember attending a Pentecostal service once and feeling genuinely left out for not shouting our & flailing around a bit!
Sorry, but it was all a bit too chaotic & individualistic for me to hear the gospel being preached.
(And on a more serious note, I had a friend at the time, a new Christian, who attended that church and came under very intense pressure to “learn” how to speak in tongues so she could rise to the next more spiritual level of faith. She left shortly thereafter.)
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While a child, I have attended Pentacostal services where people danced in the aisles. At FBCH, I doubt that anyone would interrupt, but a person dancing in the aisles would draw attention to him/herself. In our church, some few do lift hands in praise. I don’t, but don’t care if others do.
Dancing in the aisles would definitely interrupt the service. It would likely be more acceptable in the contemporary (stand and clap) service.
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Based on that quote, Jon Rowe, John Adams seems to lack discernment and introspection. It’s odd but he doesn’t have an understanding of human nature, at least not from that quote, and to say that Christianity breeds violence — well, one can only conclude that he didn’t have a lot of comprehension when reading the New Testament. Christ did not teach violence. He recognized it for what it is. John Adams doesn’t seem to have had that same ability. But, then again, he probably leaned to much on his own understanding.
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Dancing in the aisles:
We have had that but generally with the Nigerian portion of the body. It was not distracting so much as it was a reminder of the joy we should all have in the Lord. Listening to them sing praises was another. Allowing for physical expression of joy is a good thing. However, allowing emotion to lead your belief can quickly bring you into messes as was recently brought up with the killing of children in exorcism attempts. All things, including expressions of joy, must be done with order and self control.
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NJLawyer post 6,
I believe your “and not justm oney debt” is critical.
China also has a strangle hold on big chunks of our manufacturing and as a consequence, on our intellectual property.
Now it can be said that any country with 1/4 or so of the worlds population will have a dominate impact on the world economy.
But we need to think carefully how we retain “the economic high ground” where rather than financial sector, my suspicion is that this is key portions of our actual manufacturing sector.
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I was in Tombstone on Friday; could not be there today. The line between law enforcement and murder was very fine in Tombstone. The legend vs the facts of Wyatt and company have been well documented.
Bob Boze Bell at True West magazine offers a reading list:
http://www.truewestmagazine.com/stories/o_k_corral_fight/1336/
Enjoy!
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Concerning danceing in aisle, and other expressive worship. The non biblical “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” might be good advice. I am a conservative Anglo-Saxon Charismatic (if there is such a critter). I would not even consider offending the brethren in a Southern Baptist Church, but let me loose in an AME Zion or Pentacostal Church and I can get right with it. Even at 76.
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Musing, “not just money debt” doesn’t refer to China’s manufacturing or anything economic. It refers to the debt we are in spiritually.
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I wish the chinese would modify their adoption laws. Come get a Chinese baby and you also get to take home a portion of their debt instruments which they hold from Uncle Sam.
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NJL,
I actually partially agree with you. In reading their letters, Adams and Jefferson often come off as full of themselves at times.
I’m not trying to appeal to their authority when I reproduce quotes like this. I’m just laying out what they believed in. Too many Christian Nationalists appeal to the FFs’ authority as though if they said, it’s almost the Gospel truth. Much of what the key FFs believed in is not consistent with orthodox Christianity. That’s all I’m trying to show.
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NJLawyer post 43,
and how do you manage the spiritual acocunts?
What is the transactional unit of value?
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On Dancing in the aisles…
1. You all know I identify myself among the Frozen Chosen.
2. My father was raised Assembly of God.
I went to an Assembly of God church camp when I was 12 or 14. At one of the church services they had a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It really un-nerved me and I wasn’t sure what to think. A friend’s father was an Assembly of God Minister. After the service was over he found me and explained some of what I saw was real and some was phony. Only God knew. I was OK with that answer and as his wife used to say: She liked a little frosting on her cake. I attend a Friday service where they play “Chrisian Rock” and people dance and sway and raise their hands, and clap. I am not comfortable doing it, but they are and I am in their church
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church. Every now and then I find myself tapping my foot or swaying just a little, but all out dancing? No.
Is it OK for anyone else to do? Sure.
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Don’t grin, Musing! Deal with spirituality, not measurements. This is just the sort of thing that you do all the time that DonnaJ is calling you on in the teen thread.
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Okay, Jon Rowe, one more time: ” the FFs’ authority ”
These two characters are NOT the only FFs, okay?!
That quote doesn’t just show that John Adams was full of himself; it shows a distinct lack of understanding about the New Testament, human nature and history itself. If that quote was all I knew about John Adams, I’d think he was an idiot. Perhaps this is why in the play 1776 he admitted he was obnoxious and disliked. Well, talking that that in reality makes him sound positively ignorant.
Thank God there were other FFs.
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NJL,
There were more than just 2 FFs who thought like Jefferson and J. Adams did.
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But this cynic would love to be in (my) church and have someone dance up the aisles in joy. Especially, if they were older than four or five–the ages of most of our dancers.
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Jon Rowe, there were a lot of delegates to the Constitutional Convention. They overwhelmingly did not view Christianity the way your faves did. I realize this does not comport with your agenda, that you don’t like to be reminded of it, that you hope people will forget about the others, not to mention the people themselves. I get it.
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“But we need to think carefully how we retain “the economic high ground” where rather than financial sector, my suspicion is that this is key portions of our actual manufacturing sector.”
Now I just wish our glorious administration and congress would figure this out. Instead of funneling all that money into the banks, where they’ve just been sitting on it, they should have figured out how to lower taxes (gasp!) on the manufacturing sector…. and encourage startups and manufacturers to come back to our shores.
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The other stupid thing our administartion has been doing is to create new government programs. How is that generating wealth? How is that creating productive jobs?
Short answer is that it isn’t.
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Here’s a case in point…
Local guy used to manufacture custom shutters right here in town. Had a shop and spray booth, took orders from far and wide. Finally realized it was a whole lot cheaper, and less liability to custom order them from a Chinese outfit. He shut down his plant and his storefront, and gets his custom made shutters in less than two weeks.
When China can buy the wood from us, shipt it over there, make the product and ship it back for less than we can make it here… Then something is bad wrong. It’s not all just cheap labor either.
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NJL,
Again you engage in the genetic fallacy when you accuse me of having an “agenda.” The fact is you don’t have a clue what the overwhelming majority of FFs believed in and have not studied the record in as much detail as I have.
If Jefferson, Franklin and J. Adams’ views were so different than the others, then why were they asked to write the Declaration of Independence?
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Saw a letter to the editor in this morning’s paper from a senior citizen who doesn’t understand why this president would send her a $250 check, but she’s going to use it to get a subscription to Fox News network.
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NJL,
But you are right in a sense that I should post more on the other Founding Fathers who were not Christians. For instance, G. Morris. This an excerpt from a paper Gregg Frazer did on Morris where he discusses Morris’ immoral sex life:
There is another factor separating Morris from Christianity, or at least highly inconsistent with Christian faith – Morris’s immoral conduct. As to reputation, when he was nominated to be minister to France, Roger Sherman said of Morris that “with regard to moral character I consider him an irreligious and profane man.” James Monroe said: “Upon the grounds of character he was twice refused as a member of the Treasury Board.” Though he publicly defended his appointment of Morris, George Washington wrote to Morris about his “imprudence of conversation and conduct” and asked him to display “more caution and prudence” and “more circumspection.” A few years later, Monroe referred to Morris as “a man without morality.” Of course, this could have simply been a matter of political partisanship or personality conflict, but, in Morris’s case, the reputation was well-earned. Morris once threatened to kill a man if he spoke disrespectfully of him, and he frequently got “very drunk” while in France. His most conspicuous moral problems concerned women, however.
Morris had numerous illicit affairs with married and unmarried women and, by his own admission, was constantly trying to initate new ones. One of his earliest dalliances may have cost him one of his legs. One account of the loss of the leg, which is reported as fact by most biographers, is that it happened as a result of a cart accident. There is a good chance that this was merely a cover story, however. There is reason to believe that Morris lost his leg jumping from a window to escape a jealous husband. John Jay joked about it in a letter of consolation to Morris and Lord Palmerston testified that Morris told him the whole story at breakfast a decade later. There is also circumstantial evidence surrounding the woman involved which lends credence. Morris denied the story in a letter to Jay, but not very convincingly. If true, the unfortunate event did not dissuade Morris from similar activity in the future. In fact, he used the curiosity afforded by his one-legged status to attract and seduce other women.
Morris’s diary entries during his time in France are filled with sexual escapades. He had an ongoing affair with Madame de Flahaut for more than three years. She and Morris were eventually so “wanton and flagrant” that they engaged in intercourse “in the passage … at the harpsichord … downstairs … the doors are all open,” and in a coach with the coachman staring straight ahead. They became so shameless that they engaged in intercourse inside a convent and even tried to conceive a child while she denied her husband conjugal rights. Morris’s diary contains at least eighteen references to their sexual liaisons, but Morris claimed that they had made love “several hundred” times. In addition to Madame de Flahaut, Morris reported having affairs with Madame Simon, an unnamed “damsel,” Madame de Lita, Madame de Crayen, Miss Matthiesen and her “young sister,” Miss Gehrt, and Mrs. Perez Morton. According to the diary entries, he tried to seduce – or thought of doing so – Madame de Flahaut’s niece, Lady Webster, the “daughter of a Frenchman,” Madame Foucault, the daughter of his landlord, Madame de Nadaillac, Madame de Fontana, and even Dolley Madison! Everyone except Jesus sins, but the extent, duration, and brazenness of Morris’s immoral conduct must call into serious question the idea that he was a Christian. Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit.
For more see this post when I guest blogged for Ed Brayton’s Scienceblog:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/gouverneur_morris_sex_life.php
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“I’m not trying to appeal to their authority when I reproduce quotes like this. I’m just laying out what they believed in. Too many Christian Nationalists appeal to the FFs’ authority as though if they said, it’s almost the Gospel truth. Much of what the key FFs believed in is not consistent with orthodox Christianity. That’s all I’m trying to show.”
Again you engage in the genetic fallacy when you accuse me of having an “agenda.”
Sounds like an agenda to me. Most bloggers have “agendas,” that is to say some specific set of principles that are important enough to them that they will return to them frequently in order to accomplish something, even if it is only to oppose misinformation. There is nothing wrong with having an agenda. If you don’t stand for anything , you’ll likely fall for something. It does you no credit to articulate such an agenda in one post and then deny in a subsequent one that you have any agenda at all.
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No Ken,
It’s the term “agenda” that I properly object to. I have a thesis and I defend it. Everyone who believes in something has this. The term “agenda” is a pejorative and is intended to dismiss the accuracy of the information that I reproduce.
It would be like me being confronted with an argument for the accuracy of the Bible’s text in historical terms and me just writing it off and saying, you have an “agenda” to prove the Bible is true because you believe it’s true.
It’s the genetic fallacy that seeks to poison the well — the source of the information — as tainted (with “agenda” or whatever) to avoid the substance of the argument.
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Saying one has an agenda implies a party has a certain motivation to defend one’s list of things to be implemented, regardless of the facts.
Defending a thesis does not. But neither does it mutually exclude having an agenda….
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Re my sister-in-law, news last night was that she’d probably die overnight. As of this morning, she’s still with us. All of her children are with her, including one son on fall break this week, and the prayer is that she would go today, and gently.
My brother said sometimes she was lucid last night and sometimes she wasn’t. He asked her once, “Did you hear me say ‘I love you’?” and she asked, “Which time?”
As hard as this trial has been, it is a blessing to watch my brother take his wedding vows seriously, and love in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, and till death.
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Not saying whether or not you have an agenda Jon, just making a point.
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Cheryl,
I’m asking God to help all of you in this very difficult time. It’s hard watching a loved one die.
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Cheryl, I pray for you and your family. I’ve awakened in the night thought of your brother and sister in law and you and prayed. Last night I remember looking at the clock it was 4:53AM PST. GOD bless and comfort you all.
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NJlawyer post 49,
I bleive you entered spiritualityinto the disucssion as a debt issue.
But if I have no way to measure, how does one establish that there is a debt?
I believe you were correct that it is not monetary debt which is of interest.
But if you insist on a spirituality debt, then it is fair of me to ask for the units of trasnacton.
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Re dancing in church:
I doubt I would notice someone dancing in the aisle unless it happened to be nearby. During the singing part of worship (about the first twenty minutes, with a brief break to take the offering), the lights are turned down so you don’t see much of the rest of the congregation (we worship in a room built as an auditorium, which can also be used for stage productions). I often sing with my eyes closed so I can concentrate on the words/ideas rather than the people leading worship on the stage.
I do remember one time seeing someone dancing, not in an aisle per se but in the open area between the front row of seats and the stage. In the dim light all I could tell was that it was a teenager, not one I recognized, but then I don’t know all of them. I’m pretty sure no one was bothered, and more likely most people rejoiced to see it. I would guess that those who raise hands in worship are in the minority (a few decades ago this was a very traditional Baptist church), but there are enough that it is thought of as quite normal.
Our young people love dancing while they praise God. We have a woman who used to coach competitive show choirs until she had kids and became a stay-at-home mom. She started leading the children’s song time (which takes place after the morning worship service, while adults meet in small groups), teaching them some simple choreography to fit the mood and words of the songs. She had them all lead the congregation in worship for Mother’s Day one year, and people loved it so much that it’s become a regular thing twice a year, at Christmas and Mother’s Day. Last year she picked some of them (including my older son) for a travelling song & dance team that occasionally leads worship at other churches.
My younger son joined her non-travelling song & dance team last year, which he loved even though he had trouble remembering all the moves and sometimes got very frustrated. The teens who help teach the children are very patient with him, and most of the other children are also. During Sunday worship, he usually reads or plays with a stuffed animal most of the time (though he apparently is listening, as he has occasionally responded when the pastor asks a question of the congregation). But sometimes during the singing time, he gets up and starts dancing in place next to me, especially if it’s a song he knows from kids worship.
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Cheryl – I have prayed that God will take your SIL Home as easily & gently as possible.
My MIL just sort of faded away into a coma & then into eternity. Not a bad way to go. I hope it is so for your SIL.
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Donna – The Pentecostal churches I’ve attended (both Assemblies of God) have been more on the conservative side. We may get exuberant in our worship, but not in an “in your face” kind of way. And both the churches I’ve known personally have accepted that there are enthusiastic worshipers & those that are quiet in worship.
Though the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues” is taught about from time to time, & people are encouraged to seek more of Jesus (not the gifts themselves, but the Giver of the gifts), I haven’t heard of anyone being pressured about it.
And besides, “speaking in tongues” – or any of the other gifts – are given in God’s timing, & these gifts aren’t something that can be “learned”. I’m so sorry your friend had such a bad experience.
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To follow up on what Donna wrote & what I wrote in response…
I’ve heard stories of Pentecostal or charismatic churches that can seem to get out of control, but I’ve also heard of churches so staid that one would get “dirty looks” if one’s hands were raised in praise.
We humans do have the tendency to go to extremes, don’t we?
I was also thinking about how each church is their own branch of a family (the family of God).
Families differ in how they do things, how noisy they are or how formal or informal at holidays & such. Churches are like that, too.
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Instead of disagreeing honorably with dissenting Republicans, leftists and Democrats have tried to portray 30 Republican senators as if they supported rape.
Democrat Senator Al Franken drew up a so-called “anti-rape” amendment to the Senate defense appropriations bill to prevent the Pentagon from contracting with companies that require employees to resolve disputes over sexual assault and discrimination through arbitration rather than through the courts.
Senator Jeff Sessions explained that the Senate shouldn’t be in the business of regulating contracts. Also, the amendment was overbroad and might not be enforceable. Other better legislative alternatives were advocated, but no one who voted “nay” was voting in support of rape (as many Democrats have suggested, and as KWatson also suggested on a previous thread).
The White House seems to agree with Sessions. This is from a Defense Department letter:
“It may be more effective to seek a statutory prohibition of all such arrangements in any business transaction entered into within the jurisdiction of the United States, if these arrangements are deemed to pose an unacceptable method of recourse.”
[Kathlene Parker wrote an op-ed on this today and I picked up some of her queotes]
But it’s too entertaining to insist that Republicans, instead of objecting to a potentially bad law, are in favor of women being raped.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit ruled last month in Jones’s favor, agreeing that the alleged gang rape wasn’t related to her employment and that she, therefore, wasn’t bound by the company’s arbitration agreement.
Good! Now (to Demcorats in general) stop demonizing Republicans!
Actually, they have won a lot so far by demonizing Republicans unjustly so I don’t expect them to stop.
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Jon Rowe clearly has an agenda, which is why he only (and constantly) features a particular and peculiar side to John Adams and seems to be shocked and upset when evidence is offered that portray Adams differently from how Jon Rowe wants Adams to be portrayed. The whole business of isolating quotes from personal letters out of context is typical of agenda-driven people.
Jon Rowe wrote; “If Jefferson, Franklin and J. Adams’ views were so different than the others, then why were they asked to write the Declaration of Independence?”
Huh? First, this is not evidence of anything either way.
Second, of course they had different views… AND similar views too! Imagine that! In some cases, they had different views than they themselves had at earlier ages. They were free thinkers and they did not require perfectly similar views to participate in the writing of the Declaration.
Actually, they were all far more respectful toward Christianity than Jon Rowe tries to suggest, repeatedly.
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#72
Yes. I was reared in an Assembly of God. And, while many did raise hands and some spoke in tongues, it was very orderly. It was most definitely conservative leaning in all aspects.
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John Adams, on the general principles of Christianity:
“The general principles, on which the Fathers Atchieved [sic] Independence, were…the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: and the general Principles of English and American Liberty…Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.” Adams, June 28, 1813.
The quote above comports also with Adam’s quote below:
“One great advantage of the Christian Religion is that it brings the great Principle of the Law of Nature and Nations, Love your Neighbor as yourself and do to others as you would that others should do to you,–to the Knowledge, Belief and Veneration of the whole people.” From the diary of John Adams on August 14, 1796 (Quoted from Sydney Ahlstrum’s book, ‘A Religious History of the American People’). Adams was clearly referring to the “Christian religion” as the source that brings that great principle of law and love to the “whole people.”)
Here’s John Adams, from his March 23, 1798 national Fasting and Prayer proclamation:
“As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist, nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity are a loud call to repentance and reformation;”"
And this was not just a personal private letter.
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Would that all mankind be like your brother and his family and siblings The Lord comfort you all at this very sorrowful time.
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Cheryl D: Praying for you all.
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No Joel,
You are the one who plucks Adams’ quotes from context — the same two — the first one of which (the “general principles” quote) you learned from me.
I have clearly again and again shown that Adams praises what he agreed with in the Christian religion (Jesus’ moral teachings, and the parts of the Bible that he agreed with) but bitterly criticizes, rejects and mocks those parts of Christianity with which he doesn’t agree. And they are original sin, trinity, incarnation, atonement, eternal damnation and parts of the Bible.
And the million dollar question I pose and you haven’t been able to properly address is “what is Christianity without original sin, trinity, incarnation, atonement, eternal damnation and infalliblity of the Bible.” If the answer is, as some would put it here, “it’s not Christianity but some ‘other’ theological system,” then John Adams was not a Christian and didn’t praise what you (meaning “you evangelicals in general who support that proposition”) understand as “Christianity.” So when John Adams talks up the “Christian” religion, he’s talking up some “other” theological system, not what evangelicals understand to be “Christianity.”
You just resent the fact that I bore what you see as “bad news” that John Adams called himself a unitarian. Classic case of shooting the messenger because you don’t like the message.
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Here is the rest of the John Adams “general principles of Christianity” quote:
And elsewhere in that very letter Adams explains exactly what he meant by “general principles of Christianity.”
Who composed that Army of fine young Fellows that was then before my Eyes? There were among them, Roman Catholicks, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anababtists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists; and “Protestans qui ne croyent rien ["Protestants who believe nothing"].” Very few however of several of these Species. Nevertheless all Educated in the general Principles of Christianity: and the general Principles of English and American Liberty.
You got that not just theological unitarians (Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians) and Universalists but “Deists and Atheists” and “Protestants who believe in nothing” are united under Adams’ general principles of Christianity.
How could a Deist or even an “atheist” be “united” with the orthodox on ANY Christian principles? The answer is simple. According to Adams, being a Christian meant being a good person. If an atheist was a good person, he was a “Christian.” As he put it:
“I believe with Justin Martyr, that all good men are Christians, and I believe there have been, and are, good men in all nations, sincere and conscientious.”
– John Adams to Samuel Miller, July 8, 1820.
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I’ve visited various amusement parks during my life, and at times shot a various kinds of moving targets (with indifferent success), as well as a real rabbits and real squirrels (with occasional success), but after reading #79, I am envisioning an amusement park where visitors get to shoot messengers because they don’t like the message.
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TRS – Thanks for sharing that. The stereotype of Pentecostals is that we’re all overly-emotional kooks.
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Did anyone read the ARTICLE written by an IRANIAN in USA Weekend, Sunday’s newspaper?
“President OBAMA has a legion of fans (in Iran) who tout the catchy slogan ‘Oo-Ba-Mast,’ which means ‘he’s with us’ in Persian.”
median age in Tehran is 27
and she compares Tehran with Manhattan (no camels or tanks)
by R. Fathieh (she was raised in the US)
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This isn’t just a question for Joel; this is a question for any takers: “What is Christianity without original sin, trinity, incarnation, atonement, eternal damnation and infalliblity of the Bible?” Because the answer is, whatever we call, that was America’s Founding political theology. Gregg Frazer terms it “theistic rationalism.” Others term it “unitarianism.” My friend and co-blogger Tom Van Dyke suggests such a system could be termed “Judeo-Christianity.” But I know most orthodox Christians, when they say “Judeo-Christianity” as opposed to just “Christianity” don’t have a clear definition they work with.
Like Dennis Praeger, I value clarity over debate for the sake of debate.
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I don’t mean to pile on Joel Mark, but Gregg Frazer just sent me this note responding to Joel’s thoughts on the Bible and rebellion.
Joel Mark has conflated and confused a number of different terms and activities. He is quite right that Scripture does not mandate a sweeping ban on “dissent” – but quite wrong in suggesting that it does not ban “rebellion.” The initial problem, of course, is the suggestion that the two are the same thing or even in the same category.
By definition, “dissent” is disagreement; a “difference of opinion.” “Rebellion” is “open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance or resistance to an established government.”
In the American situation, King George had no problem with “dissent” – but he fought a war to put down “rebellion.” On the other side, wonders why the Americans went to the expense and insecurity of rebellion if they could achieve the same by dissent. If they’re the same, they would have the same result, right? We have different words for them because they’re quite different. The U.S. Constitution says that the writ of habeas corpus may be suspended in times of “rebellion.” We continually have people expressing dissent (picketing, Tea Parties, etc.) – does anyone suggest that habeas corpus should be perpetually suspended? Did Lincoln send the Union army into the South when the southerners expressed dissent or to put down rebellion when they took violent action against Sumter?
How, exactly, is obeying an order from pharaoh “rebellion?” In Exodus 12:31, pharaoh commanded Moses to take the people and leave. Moses obeyed that order. There was no rebellion whatsoever. What swords were drawn? Who organized a rebellious army? Which verse talks of an Israelite army fighting its way out of Egypt? For that matter, what did Moses do besides speak the word of God to pharaoh and throw down his staff? God handled whatever coercion was necessary – as He always does when He wants a ruler’s authority over a people to end. The only One Who took action against pharaoh was God – and God outranked pharaoh in authority.
David was the king – Absalom’s false claim did not change that. David is identified as the king throughout the account. So, David did not rebel against authority – he defended his authority against rebellion.
JESUS NEVER REBELLED against ANY authority. He rebuked them and warned them and chided them – but he never attempted to overthrow them or even challenged their authority. If He had, they would have had REAL charges to bring against Him at his “trial” – instead of paying men to lie. Joel Mark’s statement is curious: he says that Jesus rebelled and then says that they killed him “unjustly” for it. If he were a rebel, His execution would have been just!
Peter and the apostles did, indeed, refuse to stop preaching the gospel – that’s “disobedience,” not rebellion. Disobedience targets a law; rebellion targets the authority behind law. We may have to disobey a law if it requires us to disobey God (Acts 5:29); but we are never to resist authority (Rom. 13:2).
To be in subjection is to recognize the legitimacy of the authority over you (it is legit whether or not you recognize it); to obey is to do what they say in a specific instance. One can disobey a particular command (because it requires disobedience to God) and yet remain in subjection by maintaining respect for the authority behind the law. It usually means taking the punishment (Daniel, Shadrach et al, the apostles).
Re Mao, Stalin, Hitler, et al: the emperor when Paul told the Romans to be in subjection to authority without exception – was NERO! He was so bad a ruler that a branch of theology says that he was THE ANTICHRIST. We are, of course, free to care and to act on that concern – but we are not free to disobey God in doing so. The most powerful action we could take is to PRAY to the sovereign God of the universe. Unless you know someone stronger? (Isaiah 14:26-27)
Unbelievers may well be critical of Christians refusing to take actions of which they approve, but God does not. Many first century Christians were martyred for that very reason; and Daniel went into the lion’s den; Shadrach et al went into the furnace. Our testimony to unbelievers is, in fact, tied up in our faithful subjection to authority, according to I Peter 2:12-15. We must not disobey God in order to gain the approval of unbelievers. We may certainly “rise in the name of earthly justice” in various ways – but rebelling against authority is not one of them.
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We all need to become vegetarian. Copied from Drudge.
“People will need to turn vegetarian if the world is to conquer climate change, according to a leading authority on global warming.
In an interview with The Times, Lord Stern of Brentford said: “Meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gases. It puts enormous pressure on the world’s resources. A vegetarian diet is better.”
Direct emissions of methane from cows and pigs is a significant source of greenhouse gases. Methane is 23 times more powerful than carbon dioxide as a global warming gas.
Lord Stern, the author of the influential 2006 Stern Review on the cost of tackling global warming, said that a successful deal at the Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen in December would lead to soaring costs for meat and other foods that generate large quantities of greenhouse gases.”
My home in Hendersonvill will become beach front property.
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KBELLS #34 “DANCING”
re dancing down the isles
I have a sister-in-law that said she does that. We talked about it while she was visiting us and I told her how I felt about it. She may feel innocent about it and her heart is in the right place, but she needs to look at the bigger picture. (She is Pentacostal.) I said I felt it was distracting and the focus would be on her.
One is always given the reference to David dancing. Personally, I don’t think that is a good reference. According to some he was naked. Hmmm… (Adam and Eve were given coverings when they were escorted out of the garden.)
I guess if everyone were doing it, then it would be ok?
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News2me – From what I understand, David wasn’t technically naked, but had taken off his kingly apparel. Maybe he was in his skivvies? Not sure.
My thought about the dancing is that if it is done “in the Spirit” & is accepted in a particular church, then it’s fine. In a church that would frown upon such a thing, best not to do it.
But then I’m also wondering…What if we’re in a church that doesn’t do that sort of thing, but we feel strongly that the Holy Spirit is leading us to break out & dance for joy down the aisle? Maybe that joy would be contagious!
I have to tell you, though, if the Holy Spirit wanted me to do such a thing, He’d really have to strongly urge me, cuz I’d be quite reluctant to be the only one!
I do dance-in-place during worship service.
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The thing is, we really cannot tell what is going on in another’s spirit, whether or not they are being led by the Spirit or merely being fleshly.
Two women could dance up & down the aisle of a church – one could be sincerely following the leading of the Holy Spirit, the other could merely be doing it of her flesh.
Even two men standing worshiping quietly can be an example of the same thing. One could be quietly communing with his Lord, while the other is holding on to his so-called dignity while the Holy Spirit is urging him to raise his hands in a sacrifice of praise to Him.
We just don’t know. So I think the best thing is to “assume” another is acting from faith, until we learn any differently.
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NEWS2Me,
Remember that God seemed to be on David’s side and not Michal’s when she rebuked him for dancing. That in itself suggests he wasn’t naked, but also that whatever indignity he showed was appropriate before God.
I’m not a dancer and don’t like rowdy music. And I find “worship dance” a little weird, to be honest; I don’t see any possible way for it to add to worship to have a choreographed team moving their bodies in front of the congregation while we watch. I’ve seen it done inappropriately (with young women wearing too little clothing), but even done appropriately, I don’t quite see the point of watching someone else dance and calling it worship. (At least with a soloist or choir, ideally I can follow along with the music they’re singing, though even then, I prefer to sing along out loud.)
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#89
We just don’t know. So I think the best thing is to “assume” another is acting from faith, until we learn any differently.
One of the many things I love about Karen: putting the best possible interpretation on ambiguous situations.
I wouldn’t hire you to check credit applications, but I regard you as a “race to the top” winner every day at a place where few even make the effort.
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Well, now, naked dancing in church is a whole other topic I’d say.
Cheryl, praying for you. Tough hours. I’m so glad her children and husband are there with her.
I caught Tess tonight trying to raid Annie’s food bowl which is set up high on a table in her room, after knocking over her scratching post to get there. Heathen dogs.
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Donna (ans everyone else), thank you for praying.
My dog isn’t quite so heathen, but here’s her “bad deed” for the day. She’s good about not attempting to eat my food, and long ago learned to ignore me when I eat at the table. (She had to lie down through quite a few meals before she learned that.) If I eat anywhere else, she doesn’t try to get it, but she’s quite likely to come close and sniff appreciatively. (Hmm, something sure smells good in here. I wonder if there’s any chance I’ll be offered any of it?) When she does that, I make her lie down.
Anyway, today I was eating lunch on a TV tray / table in the den, and it occurred to me it was unlikely, but not impossible, that she’d decide to sample it. So before I left the room for a couple of minutes, I made Misten lie down. When I came back, she wasn’t lying down where I left her. She was in fact lying down (good dog), but several feet from where I’d had her lie down, and right at the base of the TV table. There was no evidence she’d touched the food, but it was still naughty. She tried to act innocent and tell me she thought she could guard the food better if she was closer to it, but I moved her back to where she was supposed to be and made her lie down during my whole meal instead of releasing her when I came in. I’ve got to admit, though, that in spite of being naughty, it was funny; and it did actually show self-control–she was tempted and moved closer, but she was submissive enough to lie down instead of partaking of what she knew wasn’t hers.
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Mean mommy.
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Mean mommy, good dog!
I also ignore my dogs when eating and they know not to beg or even hang around me. Stalking the cat’s food is another story, though I am going to be more careful about shutting the door to Annie’s room when she’s munching away.
Annie was lying up in the open window of the living room last night, she loved gazing out into the night. I’ll have to allow her out sometime (not until after Halloween), but I will really worry about her.
(And little does she know she could get out now if she wanted — she just needs to figure out the doggie door, which I don’t think she knows really exists yet.)
But if she’s going to be a mouser, she’ll need to be out some; I have a break-away cat collar on order and still need to get a reflective tag. She’s been microchipped at the shelter and I’m now the registered owner.
She was rubbing up against Cowboy again this morning as Cowboy was lying in the door to the hallway … I think we’re definitely over the hump and if they were going to slaughter her in the night they would have done so by now.
Hopefully she’ll be comfortable enough to hang out in the backyard a good part of her outdoor time.
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I’m posting a couple new pics of her later today (noonish?) on the pets blog if you’re interested. She’s discovered sitting in the window is her favorite hang-out:
http://www.insidesocal.com/pets
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