Dissolving urban youth para-church ministries
Do para-church urban youth ministries need to be dissolved and collapsed into neighborhood churches? Do we need urban ministry-minded Christians placing more efforts into teaching in inner-city public schools in order to truly serve the city? I think this may be the way forward. For those Christians with a calling to serve the needs of inner-city youth, teaching in the public schools may be the best place to have the greatest impact outside of the direct work of local churches. The para-church model is out of a 1950s playbook and may not be best use of human and financial capital to meet emerging needs.
For example, nearly 23 percent of all young American black men ages 16 to 24 who have dropped out of high school are in jail, prison, or a juvenile justice institution, according to a new report titled “Consequences of Dropping Out of High School” from the Center for Labor Markets at Northeastern University. There is no urban youth ministry that has the capacity to put much of dent in this alarming trend. These students need academic discipleship in addition to spiritual formation.
The para-church model for helping black and Latino males has expired and does not have the full scope of influence that missionally minded teachers could have being in a school setting working directly with local churches. Teachers have the advantage of being with students most of the day for about nine months out of the year. No urban youth worker could come close to that many “contact” hours. If the minds of urban youth are not being cultivated, we aren’t really helping them become makers of culture here and now.
As public school teachers, administrators, and coaches, urban-minded missional Christians wouldn’t have to raise support either. Moreover, until America begins to re-think our public school system disaster for black and Latino males we will have to work with the current system. As such, the public schools need a cadre of missional Christian teachers, thousands of them, who understand that forming human dignity is spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional.
We must remember two things about the black male graduation crisis: (1) it is not reduced to the nation’s largest cities—South Carolina, Wyoming, Michigan, Louisiana, and Georgia have among the lowest rates of black male graduates in country; and (2) this has much to do with the break down of the family, which is the unique reparative work of the church. Urban para-church ministry is neither designed nor equipped to meet the holistic needs of families.
Having said that, I know many people can offer countless lists of exceptions and personal stories about urban ministry “X” that helped kid and/or family “Y.” Those are great. I’m not saying that current ministries do not help a few. We should celebrate and honor that good work. However, in 2007, 16 percent of persons between 16 and 24 years of age (nearly 6.2 million people) were high school dropouts. Among these dropouts, 60.1 percent were men, 18.8 percent were black, and 30.1 percent were Hispanic. Only churches and teachers have access to this many students and their families.




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back to top76 Comments to “Dissolving urban youth para-church ministries”
And how would this be done when the tools for such effective work have been removed?
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WOW!
We have tended to see only Bible teaching type activities as “ministry.” We need to see our lives as ministry and recognize the high calling of God to be public school teachers, health care workers, construction workers, policemen, etc. We need to see our vocation as a mission field. In the church we need to train, support, and honor all work done in the name of Jesus. No matter where we work there are people who need to see and hear God graciously and powerfully drawing them to Himself.
Praise God for faithful pastors in all sorts of levels, but, we must prepare and unleash the millions of ministers in our churches.
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Fisherman,
Agreed, but how is that done when the schools do not tolerate speaking of the One for Whom we work? The actions of love should, of course, be there. But what about the words of love?
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I believe that most schools allow a teacher or worker to answer any question asked by a student. A life graciously lived for Jesus will most usually speak so loudly that confrontational, “proselytizing” words (the sort usually objected to) are not necessary. One of the problems is that our words are often not preceded and matched by our actions of love. I think that the responses of the “opponents” on these web posts illustrate that they don’t believe they have seen our actions of love and simply respond accordingly.
To act with genuine love is unnatural, very difficult, and too often not quickly rewarded. But it is what Jesus demonstrated, commanded, and empowers.
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The actions of love should point to Christ. But in a world of negativity and self indulgence, Christ also used words to point people to the Father.
When my kids have brought up God in class, they were told they could not mention Him. If a child asks a teacher why she is so kind, you are saying she is allowed to say it is because of God?
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If they are doing God’s Work let leave them be.
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Yes, I think most school teachers would be allowed to say that.
At some point it may be appropriate to stand up to an unfair or illegal situation. (Paul appealed to Rome) But, most often I believe our most effective action is to make sure that we are gracious and loving in our behavior. That is the lesson we need to be modeling before our children. How many hard-hearted parents have been led to Jesus by the sincere faith of their children.
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Well, if that is the case, sure, teachers and those called should be involved in that area. I also know that the school our church runs, small as it is, gets the kids kicked out of the public school so there is definitely a ministry opportunity there as well.
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Mumsee,
I did a double-take when I read your comment the first time, then went back and re-read it and figured out what you meant. You’re saying the school gets the kids (who have been) kicked out of the public school. The first time, I read it as saying that they get them kicked out of the public school (so that they can have them as students).
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Thank you for clarifying for me, Pauline, you got it right. My communication skills, what they are, are struggling with a weather front.
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Lol, I was wondering what kind of school that church had!
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St. Francise of Assissi said; “Preach the gospel, use words if you have to.”
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This amounts to a call to pay Christians a mission stipend to go to work in inner city schools. If the average public school teacher earns $45,000, which is difficult to live on in many cities, then churches could pay them another $10,000 on the side to enter into such a radical endeavor. I think it is a grand idea, but one best handled quietly among friends. When the teachers unions get together we don’t need that political flak.
Perhaps the first thing we can do is to thank those who are already engaged in this great mission by providing them, and their classrooms, generous gifts. Do you know a teacher working in the inner city on purpose in order to reach those youth? Give them your library, or some portion of it. Write them a nice fat check for Christmas. Fix their car for free. Visit and guest teach their class sometime.
Similar arguments are being made for outreach to international students (the world is coming to us!) in universities. If you want to reach urban youth, do try to get them to come to you, go to them!!!
Nathanael Snow
ndsnow@gmail.com
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I don’t think this article actually shows that urban youth para-church ministries are outdated. It says that, but the reasoning mentioned is:
1) Young black males aren’t graduating and are going to jail
2) Teachers have more hours with students
3) Churches need to take care of families better
None of those tells me that urban youth para-church ministries are outdated – it simply identifies problems and other important areas of ministry.
Being a teacher in an inner-city school IS NOT a replacement for a ministry. Yes, you can be missional in that vocation – but it does different work. Both are needed – not replacing one with the other. It is incredibly difficult to address spiritual needs in a secular classroom setting. Teachers cannot replace youth ministry workers.
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Also – churches do not have access to the same students para-church youth ministries have. The Young Life program in my city reaches unchurched youth in a way it is very difficult for me to, as a youth leader within my local church. I appreciate and encourage the work that they are doing.
All 3 avenues are important – missional teachers to educate youth and live out the Gospel in day to day life, Churches (and youth minstries within those churches) to meet the hoistic needs of youth and their families, and also para-church youth ministry workers to reach out to those who lack connection with a church in the area. It should feed into local churches, but it provides an important aspect of youth ministry.
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I think this is a great idea. Maybe I can save up enough to retire early and go teach at a public school. Stand and Deliver, I say!
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SEANMT – very appropriate comments.
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Seanmt,
You are exactly right. This article says that urban para-church ministries don’t work and the evidence is these statistics. Then we are told not to mention merely individual persons or ministies. My husband teaches fouth grade in Compton, CA. One of my best friends is the head of a very successful para-church organization (academic discipleship)in Santa Ana, CA. But apparently Bradley doesn’t want to hear about it, casue they are not an army yet.
Excuse me Mr. Bradley, but what are you doing about it? Are your boots on the ground or do you just write about it?
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SeanMT – I agree.
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Paying someone #10,000 on the side? – That isn’t honest is it? Or have you found a way to pay someone a salary and not report it, as required by the IRS.
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I’ve asked the EXACT same question on other threads in regards to these types of threads.
Compton is a tough area, your husband has his hands full. GOD bless him
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SHOULD READ:
“I’ve asked the EXACT same question on other threads in regards to these types of subjects.”
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I had to look up “para church”. Boy, things get so complicated, don’t they?
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I have a family friend who does Intervarsity staff work at Adelphi and a few other colleges in NY you’ve probably never heard of.
She frequently sends out nice newsletter updates. She loves her students and they seem like a nice enough bunch. But..
you can’t help but notice that the big happy huddle of smiling faces is largely female and African American. The young men are there but normally not more than one or two.
And remember, this parachurch ministry is at an in-residence university and thus it targets a narrow sliver of the demographic Bradley alluded to above.
At my not so little Louisiana church (ELBChurch dot org) we have a huge number of school district employees. They are unabashed Christians who actually DO view their roles as ministry (albeit without words). I dont know how many students will ever claim that Mr or Mrs X had a great influence on them one way or another, but if the opp presents itself these folks will make it clearly known what guides their actions.
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#20 I know a man who lacks any ordination or formal seminary training. He has a steady pool of supporters who underwrite his ministry. His wife has a job. He does too but I’m pretty sure the wife is the major breadwinner
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SAWGUNNER…. Good stories… God so uniquely calls us to serve Him. We need to welcome, honor, and seek, more and more blooming (ministering) where we are planted.
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While raising the money would be a challenge, it seems to me that it would be appropriate to help Christians get into positions of influence in public schools, and many other places God calls them. There are Christians in many places in the world who are financially (and prayerfully) supported to work in “secular” jobs in order to “minister” to the people around them. We call them missionaries when it is in a foreign country. Here we could call them teachers, crisis pregnancy workers, coaches, etc.
I think all that Mr Bradley is saying is that we need to seek to do whatever it takes to effectively minister to the people around us even if it is different than we have been doing; especially when we realize that what we have been doing is missing some real needs.
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Victoria #20, #27,
I am not afraid of Muslims proselytizing, nor of Mormons, or JW’s, or Satanists, etc. I am most afraid of Hannah Montana, or for the demographic in question ‘Lil “Cute and Harmless Adolescent Rapper of the Week.”
I remember 10 years ago comparing Brittany Spears with Marylin Manson, and being much more frightened by Spears.
We should not be afraid of open dissemination of various theologies and philosophies within the schools. If your kids are vulnerable, who’s fault is that??? I don’t expect anything more than free daycare from the public schools (which both of my daughters attend) and if they happen to learn anything else while they are there I count it as extra. Their education is my responsibility. Period, end.
As for supporting good teachers “on the side,” it does not cost anything to hand someone money. You are allowed to give as much as you like to whomever you like.
After 8 years of ministry teaching in the inner city myself, I can tell you, were it not from gifts such as these from the people of God, we never would have made it. Bradley is on to a good idea. Find a teacher who is missional in her work and support her in whatever way you desire, my ideas are just suggestions.
Nathanael Snow
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Jurisnaturalist – 29
Read Adios post #18 again. I agree with her.
Para-church ministries work, the reason I know this is because I’ve seen them work. I’m a pastor’s daughter, and I know from where I speak – you cannot do in a public school system what you can do in a para-church ministry – one is governed by the law of separation of church and state and the other isn’t.
You will never convince me that giving a public school teacher “$10,000 on the side” versus a ministry which is referred to as para-church will be more successful.
I’m not going to get into it with a debate about what cult practice is more dangerous, …. anything that is not totally Bible based is not going to spread the Gospel, so…….. making mention of all the groups you have above are of no importance.
Churches and Christians have been giving money for many years to inner-city ‘EVERYTHING’ I don’t see the change. It isn’t money that’s needed but those in the inner-city who are Believers to start taking charge and responsibility for what is going on. It isn’t a library that’s needed but a willingness and determination to change that which has been lacking for 60 plus years. Stop looking for an excuse and get busy with the people who know what is right, who are Believers and spread the Gospel.
Jurisnaturalist, you’re banking on financial funds to make a difference when it is clear that has never made the change you’re looking for. This isn’t about money, it is about those who live in the inner-city taking charge of their lives and that of their children.
When our forefathers came to this country they had only what they brought with them from the old country, and it was very little. They worked hard, they didn’t sit back waiting to see who would support their problems, they knew they would have to solve them all by themselves, ….. that’s what YOU and those in the inner-city need to do, work and solve it. The government has given so much tax dollars and the church has done a great deal. Now that isn’t to say the church won’t continue to help, but you need to teach people to HELP THEMSELVES.
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ParaChurch ministries have been effective, at doing what they are designed to do. All Mr Bradley is saying is that he is seeing needs around him that the established parachurch ministries are neither designed nor effective to meet.
Also, I think I remember that Mr Bradley has been personally involved in meeting the needs of some specific young men.
Thank God that there are people who have burdens, abilities, and resources different from mine. Lord bring them together to maximize their impact. And, help them not be discouraged by detractors.
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Fisherman – 31
YOU WROTE:… “Thank God that there are people who have burdens, abilities, and resources different from mine. Lord bring them together to maximize their impact. And, help them not be discouraged by detractors.”
Thank GOD that everyone is doing what the LORD has called them to do, and that means Para-church ministries as well. Those who have begun these great works and those who work with any and all people.
Bradley wrote:….. “The para-church model for helping black and Latino males has expired and does not have the full scope of influence that missionally minded teachers could have being in a school setting working directly with local churches.
Detractors …. there are many who do not support para-church ministries. They speak for their specific area, but again I would remind everyone that people are called by GOD to work as HE designs, NOT to break down the work of the para-church ministry – it is a vital ministry in the inner-city.
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I don’t think Mr Bradley is breaking down the work of the parachurch ministries. He is simply saying that he believes there are needs that teachers can meet more effectively.
I will, however, challenge the parachurch ministry in general. First, I believe that many parachurch ministries have done wonderful things for the Kingdom of God. But, I believe that they have a serious flaw in that I’m not sure it is Biblically defensable to have ministries independent (not under the authority) of a local church. Jesus said He will build His “Church”. I am sure that people who start independent ministries have good intentions. But I believe they can easily miss out on the benefits of being accountable to a local church.
I personally support some parachurch missionaries so I am not an opponent. I simply believe that the local church is the organism that God has ordained to carry out His Great Commission; and It could be much more multifacited than it is.
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We are accountable to GOD for what we do for others.
No where in the New Testament is it addressed that individuals are not to spread the Gospel, help the poor and needy, or anything else UNLESS it’s under the umbrella of the local church. I’ve heard this story before, and it doesn’t hold up under the light of the Gospel.
I started a group up north to help ANYONE who needed food, clothing, a place to stay – I also had connections with a local doctor to help with those who needed it. I contacted the local police department and they OK’d my information to be placed in their station. I had a 24 hour answering service and about 12 volunteers. Souls were saved, food was furnished for mothers who couldn’t feed their children, medical help was granted for those in need, homes were furnished for those who had no where to go, comfort and counseling were given to each and every person.
NOW ……. I remember very well one of the remarks which was made by an asst. pastor’s wife (50 plus years old) “I think these sorts of programs should be under the church” …. did she help or organize such a group? – NO
I asked one of the deaconess if we might have some of the food from the church pantry for those in need ….. her answer: “that food is for our church members when they need it” – so much for helping those outside the church. The food we gave out was paid for by our volunteers.
We checked the requests carefully. We went so far as to go to the homes, and check the kitchen, …. you would be surprised how many shelves are EMPTY – lost jobs, hungry kids, single moms between jobs.
We went to a wonderful church, they preached the Gospel, but like most all churches cannot see how desperate some are.
We attend a church now which does SEE, and understand, however that wouldn’t stop me from starting another group if the LORD led me in that direction.
When I started that group, I felt the direct leading of the LORD, it couldn’t have come together so well with everyone pitching in if it wasn’t of HIM.
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This doesn’t seem to me to have to be a choice of one or the other.
If one is called to be involved in a para-church ministry – or any other kind of ministry – then do what you’re called to do.
And if a Christian teacher is called to teach & minister (as God supplies the opportunities) in the public schools, then that is what she/he should do.
I know some Christians working in the public schools, & they tell wonderful stories of how God opens doors of opportunity for them to share their faith with individual students or fellow teachers.
No so-called law of separation of church & state is going to stand in God’s way. He will make a way.
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Victoria, I am sure that the ministry you described was used by God to truly bless many people. I am sure that your desire to minister was and is genuine. However, simply because you felt led and things came together well does not mean that it was what God wanted. Lots of sincere people misinterpret the will of God.
I’m NOT saying that your group was against God’s will. I am simply saying that I believe God established the church with Godly leaders to guide the carrying out of the Great Commission. Certainly there are church leaders who are not following the Lord. But that does not invalidate His pattern. Just as certainly there are people in churches who believe that they do not need to be submissive to the church leaders. Attitudes of independence have resulted in much disunity and hindered witness in the church. Failures in the church are not good reason to change God’s pattern for building His Kingdom.
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Again Fisherman, you are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but if you want to base it upon Scripture, then you would need to prove that one should conduct their ministry under the umbrella of their church.
Fisherman, I know when the HOLY Spirit is leading me and when I am making my own way. You must have a different experience to have made the statement above because it’s not correct, nor is it true. One of the women called on the line one day, she said she was dying, going blind and would be dead in a year. I was shocked, …. asked a lot of questions and asked one of the women to go to the hospital to see her. She had diabetes, she was half blind – that day after my friend told her about Christ she became a Christian she was thrilled. She was brought back to her apartment, did the best she could – to make great story shorter, I became friends with her mother,…. my friend died at age 35. I talked with her mother on the phone often. One day she too wanted to become a Christian, she wanted Salvation. She repented of her sins and came to know the LORD.
That is but one story of a mother and daughter who were lost and found Christ as their Savior. That’s the HOLY Spirit working in the lives of those who are willing to be led.
So when you tell me — “However, simply because you felt led and things came together well does not mean that it was what God wanted.” — you will have to deal with that yourself, because I KNOW that I was led by GOD.
Doing nothing and expecting your church to stand in the gap for every single need in your community isn’t going to accomplish anything. Finding a need and praying about what you can do about it, and then following the LORD is exactly what should be done.
Too many elders and church leaders want to control the flock instead of letting those who see a need, have the resources to handle it, know that the LORD is leading GO FOR IT – instead they would like to have a number of meetings, decide who should run it, etc. The church has many members, everyone isn’t the arm, leg, foot, etc., we do what we are called to do.
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Fisherman, I would caution you not to hinder the work of the HOLY Spirit – you are wrong about me, …. I wonder how many others you have tried to throw a wet blanket on, just because your church isn’t in charge. Many times people spend their own money to accomplish the work they are called to do, it has nothing to do with going to the church and asking for funds -
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Victoria, I said about you: “I am sure that the ministry you described was used by God to truly bless many people. I am sure that your desire to minister was and is genuine.”
and then you said: “you are wrong about me,”
You demonstrate over and over again that you hear and see only what you want to see and hear. But of course you are always right.
The only “wet blanket” I have tried to throw is the suggestion that we should seek to live Biblically, the very thing you claim to want. However you do seem to interpret Heb 13:17 “Obey your leaders and submit to them….” rather liberally. I have not suggested any sort of dictatorship as you imply. I have only said that orderly accountability to the Head of the Church is the way God leads His Kingdom. Simply because God permits and uses things contrary to His declared will does not make those things normative.
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You see Fishermen, you leave out your last sentence which in post number #39 is deceptive, add it and this is what you get:
“However, simply because you felt led and things came together well does not mean that it was what God wanted.”
You may think this is clever, but I don’t – it’s wrong!
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Victoria,
You won’t even receive a compliment unless it acknowledges your absolute correctness.
You won’t even consider the possibility that some of your ideas might need modifying.
You take simple observations as personal attacks.
I’m sorry we cannot communicate better.
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Fisherman,
You didn’t quote yourself, you left out what changed your entire comment…. and for this you write #41 which is nothing but POOR ME!
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I wasn’t looking for a compliment. I depended on the HOLY Spirit’s leading. It’s not a matter of my being correct.
I don’t need to modify the HOLY Spirit’s leading. It is not for you to judge what that organization did, as there were conversions to Salvation in Jesus Christ, people were fed, comforted and homes were found for those who were finding life very difficult. You don’t modify pain and suffering, you step in and help those who aren’t able to help themselves.
Fisherman, you weren’t there, you didn’t see the need, you didn’t see the suffering, so there is nothing to modify, except your perception of what you didn’t see.
What have you done besides find fault with those who are led to start a para-church ministry, ministries which have not asked for money from you?
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The real point of my posts on this blog have not been about your ministry; though you take it as such and thus miss entirely what I have tried to say. I have no doubt about the good results of the specific ministry you describe. You obviously responded to needs you saw in the ways you believed God was leading you. That is GOOD. That is exactly what I understand Mr Bradley to be proposing should happen in ministry to inner city youth.
I simply interjected, with no malice toward parachurch ministries, that I believe the Bible teaches that the local church should be the body to whom all ministries should be accountable.
You, of all people, should be concerned about following the Bible. You got upset when I suggested that it is possible for people, including you and I, to feel led contrary to what God actually wants. i.e.: The very first thing the followers of Christ did after He left the earth was to pray and sincerely feel led to elect an Apostle to replace Judas. Did they accurately perceive the will of God? I believe not. Were they awful people because of it? Of course not. Does it render improper everything else they did? Certainly not. BUT, it DOES illustrate the point that we easily misunderstand God’s will, even with great sincerity. AND, it is always appropriate to ask ourselves, and others, if what we are believing and doing is actually What God wants?
So, my reading of the NT suggests that God has ordained the local church as the body to whom we are accountable for our ministries. If I have an idea for ministry I should submit to my church leaders for counsel regarding that ministry. That no more implies dictatorship on the part of leaders than it implies rebellion on the part of members. It only says that God confirms His directions in an orderly way, and has safeguards against our natural tendency to do things our way rather than His.
If a person (or group) cannot get support from their church leaders I see three options:
1. Get help modifying your idea so that they can support it.
2. Find another church that can support you.
3. Go off on your own disregarding the counsel of a local church.
I see great danger in #3.
These comments are not a condemnation of either you in particular or parachurch ministries in general. They are simply observations that I believe are worth considering.
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I hope that those who see a need such as the one I was involved, and the LORD leads them to care for those in need – will go forth and do it, gathering others who believe they can offer their time and service to the needy.
Those who profess to be Christians involved in para-church minstry are not to be confused with Judas replacement, that analogy isn’t applicable to helping others in need.
The HOLY Spirit lives in every single Christian Believer, – we are all called in different ways to serve, it’s not always under the umbrella of the local church.
Find a passage of Scripture that says one should not help others or form a group of like minded others to gather together, UNLESS it is under the jurisdiction of their local church.
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I can see why you are reluctant to submit to local church leadership. You don’t consider Heb 13:17 to be describing your accountability to local church leaders. You seem to paraphrase it: “Obey your leaders and submit to them … unless you feel the Holy Spirit telling you to do otherwise.”
Do you not agree that it is possible for Christians to sincerely misunderstand the leading the of Holy Spirit?
The NT letters were written to local churches, local church members, and local church leaders.
Where does the Bible say that Christ is the Head of non-church ministries? Isn’t He the Head of the Church and by extension of all His people through the church?
I too hope that Christians get involved in the needs they see around them; with the counsel and cooperation of their local church. I see this not as a restriction but as an enhancement.
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Victoria – Sounds like a wonderful ministry. Is it still going on?
I agree with you that the leaders of a church don’t & can’t do everything that needs to be done. But I do think that one starting a ministry, or getting involved with a ministry that is not connected with one’s own church, needs the blessing & perhaps counsel of their pastor, to be under the pastor’s “spiritual covering”, so to speak.
Do you agree with this, or do you think one can do so without that blessing & “covering”?
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Below is just a sample of para-church organizations which have been bringing the Gospel to the world – that includes young people. These organization cut across denominations to help with difficult problems, including the poor outside of the church.
Ahletes in Action – Fellowship of Christian Athletes – Focus on the Family – Young Life – Youth for Christ – Mission Africa – Bible Study Fellowship – L’Abri –
GOD bless those who step out in faith, Believing the HOLY Spirit’s leading in their quest to serve the LORD.
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There are hundreds of groups who are not well known, men and women who have started Bible studies in the communities within their own homes. They did so as the HOLY Spirit led them.
One might not know of those who gather food and clothing for those in need, or who open their homes on a regular basis for 6 or so male or female’s to live because they need help, not just financial but spiritual guidance. If GOD calls you to fill a need, you have the direction from the MASTER, you don’t have to get permission from anyone else.
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Karen,
As I stated above “If GOD calls you to fill a need, you have the direction from the MASTER, you don’t have to get permission from anyone else.”
GOD bless you
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I agree that the list of ministries in #48 is a list of good ministries. I don’t know what relationship they have to a local church. But, a list does not prove that independence from a local church is God’s will. One could make a long long list of groups that claim to be Christ’s Church. That long list does not prove their validity. The question is: is a particular group Biblical? That is all I have been asking. To simply answer “the Holy Spirit confirms it”, is an inadequate answer. The Holy Spirit certainly is involved, but there is the additional factor of the objective truths of the Bible. I want the Word to be the judge of my feelings rather than my feelings being the judge of the Word.
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Now you put words in my mouth? I have not made that comment, you have used quote marks to indicate that is what I have posted, when in fact that is not the truth. You made that up to make a point which you don’t have.
You haven’t asked if the group is Biblical, but of course they are – you’ve only made mention that it must be under the auspices/leadership of the local church –
As a pastor’s daughter I have observed a few negative individuals who found fault with everything except their own ideas. They want to govern everything within the church, not only their own role, but that of everyone else – sometimes these people are determined to lead the pastor.
Fisherman I wish you the best, however this conversation is finished. The reason is, your negativity serves no useful purpose and you tried in vain to put words in my mouth.
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Victoria,
You are correct that you did not say exactly “the Holy Spirit confirms it.”
You have said:
#34 “I felt the direct leading of the LORD,”
#37 “I know when the HOLY Spirit is leading me and when I am making my own way.”
#43 “I depended on the HOLY Spirit’s leading.”
“I don’t need to modify the HOLY Spirit’s leading.”
#48 ‘”Believing the HOLY Spirit’s leading
#49 “They did so as the HOLY Spirit led them.”
There is nothing wrong with depending on the Holy Spirit, unless one is unwilling to check the leading by the Word.
I think you are known as one who turns to the Word on nearly every thread. That is why I have been surprised that you have not discussed what the Bible says on this topic.
Good Evening.
God bless you with Himself.
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Fisherman,
You have lost the meaning of “HOLY Spirit” – The HOLY Spirit lives within each of us, and guides us – there a thousands of parachurch ministries which have dotted the globe, to FIRST spread the Gospel and help others –
The pastor of ones church is not the HOLY Spirit, he is but a leader, one to be honored, but not that above the HOLY Spirit.
I’m still waiting for your passage of Scripture which clearly defines the fact we should not have para-church ministry unless we check with the church. Where is it Fisherman, I’m waiting. Hebrews 13:17 doesn’t do it – try telling that to the groups I mentioned above, OR I can give you another 20 or 30 to choose from.
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I described the whole NT as a mandate for the local church. You got me on the verse that prohibits parachurch ministries. But neither can I find a verse that advocates ministries independent of local church leadership. Can you show me a situation in the NT where a ministry is outside the supervision of a local church?
To what does Heb 13:17 apply? In what sort of situations are we to be obedient and submissive to church leaders? If ministry options are not included what is?
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Fisherman
You haven’t the proof to determine those in para-church ministry to receive approval from the church.
I don’t need proof, there isn’t any. You are the one who layed down the gauntlet, …..and you cannot find a passage of Scripture.
Pray Fisherman for those who are led by the HOLY Spirit and follow HIS leading, pray that they will do what they are led to do, STOP trying to chide them for not checking with the church first before preaching the Gospel, helping the poor, feeding the hungry or doing WHATEVER they are led to do. Pitch in, help and stop hindering the work of the HOLY Spirit.
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You claim I am hindering the work of the Holy Spirit because I want to check what what people believe is the Holy Spirit’s leading by referring to the Bible and local church leaders.
By the way I suspect that the majority of parachurch ministries have a great deal of counsel and significant accountability to local churches. It is an attitude of independence which I believe is unBiblical.
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Fisherman
Believe what you will. GOD knows those who have stepped out in faith, …. believing the HOLY Spirit as leader. It’s not up to you as to their accountability to local churches, it is their dependability towards the LORD.
Check out the para-church organizations – you can’t check those who are scattered throughout the land/world who don’t ask for funds but contribute their own. The interesting thing, YOU CANNOT CHECK THEM OUT, they are hidden in GOD’s knowledge, they are HIS, the giving is between the giver and the LORD. It’s not for you to know.
Instead of being a ‘checker’ why not ask what you can do to help?
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What if I believe the Holy Spirit wants me to be a checker?
Is there a verse that says I should not be a checker?
Actually I am both a checker and a helper.
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Fisherman
There a lot of people who wear the badge of “CHECKER’ the problem is, they don’t don’t spread the Word, they try and do GOD’s job because they think they can do it better, they are “checkers’ you know, everyone has met them in the churches.
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Victoria,
You are interpreting “checker” all negative. You are correct that judgmental nit pickers are in the church. But, is there no good purpose for checking? Are we supposed to merely accept what we ourselves or other people claim to be of the Lord, or by the Spirit’s leading?
I think Paul was a checker and encouraged us to be checkers, though he used different words like test and try.
Rom 12:2 “…by testing you may discern what is the will of God…”
2Cor 13:5 “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. ?Test yourselves.”
1Thess 5:21 “Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise ?prophecies, 21 but ?test everything; hold fast what is good.”
And John
1Jn 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but ?test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for ?many ?false prophets ?have gone out into the world.”
Rev 2:2
The Bible is our primary checker, tester, judge, scale, standard, or whatever other word you wish to use. And each of these can be abused, and in need of being held accountable for misuse.
All I have done is suggest that we ask if ministries which are independent from the council and oversight of local church leaders are Biblical.
You have responded that the Holy Spirit confirms them and the Bible does not specifically prohibit them, so yes they are.
I ask where does the Bible prescribe or confirm independent ministries?
And you say I am a checker trying to do better than God.
It is interesting that on other threads you often quote many passages of scripture to make your point. Yet here you have not used the Bible in your argument.
Again, I support (financially, philosophically, and physically) some parachurch missionaries and ministries. I have simply said that I believe they are most Biblical when they accountable to local church leaders.
How is that so bad?
You have said that there is no need for some ministries to be accountable to local church leaders.
I believe there is danger in that position.
When God doesn’t find people to do what He wants the best way, He graciously uses other ways. But those other ways do not become the norm.
When God hasn’t found men willing to fulfill the leadership roles in family, and church He has graciously and powerfully used Godly women to fill those leadership roles. But those exceptions do not become the norm.
When God wants ministry done and a local church is not willing to do it, He may find other ways to accomplish it. But it does not become the prescribed way God wants it done.
This is way too long.
Enjoy the Lord today.
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I strongly believe in following the leading of the Holy Spirit. I also firmly believe that God has given us “checkpoints” to help us determine whether or not we have really heard from the Spirit.
Of course, the Holy Spirit will never lead someone to do something contrary to God’s word.
Often, He uses circumstances to help confirm His leading.
And God also uses human counsel to confirm His leading.
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There is no passage of Scripture, that’s the whole point. The passage in Hebrews doesn’t address parachurch ministry.
I’m beginning to see a jealous seed in some of the Believers who don’t like parachurch ministry – I think it’s because they cannot direct, govern and lead the way, most likely becaue they weren’t called to do so.
The HOLY Spirit guides the one chosen.
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What passage in Scripture does address parachurch ministry?
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None -
Are we to help those less fortunate, hungry, poor, sick, in pain and sorrow? We are not told to check with our church first to gather together like minded Believers to do the job.
Parachurch ministries have come about by need, which many walk by everyday doing nothing to alleviate that which they see.
In helping others through these groups, we can spread the Gospel, we don’t need permission to do this.
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This is a wonderful passage, it might help answer the question.
We can help the poor anytime we wish – Jesus didn’t say one word about checking with the the church.
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So now the Good Samaritan is a parachurch ministry?
I’ve never suggested that loving our neighbor is something that requires church leader oversight.
You really can’t find a scripture that addresses parachurch ministry? And yet you stridently support it?
If Heb 13:17 does not address ministry accountability, what does it address. In what areas are Christians to be obedient and submissive to church leaders? Surely it must apply to something,
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The verse quoted earlier is not the “Good Samaritan” verse, but one that encompasses the poor – that would mean needing a place to sleep, food, a coat, medicine, help of any kind –
We are FREE to help any time, JESUS said so –
We are to spread the Gospel, what better way than to help those in need -
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So Mk 14:7 addresses parachurch ministry?
If Heb 13:17 does not address ministry accountability, what does it address. In what areas are Christians to be obedient and submissive to church leaders? Surely it must apply to something,
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Fisherman,
Yes Mark 14:7 is an excellent illustration. Jesus would not have said ….. “you can help them any time you want.” ……. if HE had not meant it.
There is no reason to continue trying to make Hebrews 13:17 fit your mold against para-church minstry- it’s doesn’t work.
Many people who have started para-church ministries have looked upon the needy and have organized in such a way so that they can distribute, and help those in need, and still others may not have the funds, but they are willing to help as well. The HOLY Spirit opens the heart and mind of people of HIS choosing to do these tasks.
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Fisherman,
You’re having a hard time with people not coming to you (if you are an elder or pastor) or the church and asking for their blessing upon that which the HOLY Spirit has directed.
There is no greater blessing than to be moved by the HOLY Spirit to do what HE has put upon the Believers heart – It is with great joy that the Believer follow the Spirit of GOD.
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OK, If Heb 13:17 does not address ministry accountability, what does it address. In what areas are Christians to be obedient and submissive to church leaders? Surely it must apply to something,
The verse certainly does not require christians to ask permission of church leaders before they lovingly care for others. But it must apply to something. To what does it apply?
Why can’t you just answer the question?
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Fisherman,
I am not debating what your verse is:…. I am telling you it does not have anything to do with para-church ministry –
You have tried very hard to make that passage of Scripture mean something it doesn’t – You can’t let it go, but that doesn’t change the fact it doesn’t fit.
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Victoria,
OK. If doesn’t fit parachurch ministry, what does it fit?
For what must you obey and submit to your church leaders?
If you cannot answer it this time I will assume that you believe it does not apply to anything and you submit only to the Lord or the Holy Spirit.
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Fisherman, don’t twist my words or thoughts, that is an old trick, one I haven’t heard for a long time.
It doesn’t have anything to do with para-church ministry -
We aren’t going to agree, so it’s much better to agree to disagree.
Have a nice week Fisherman
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Victoria,
Agreed.
I have pressed the issue because I believe independence (”I’d rather do it my way”) is a real problem in the American church. By the way, independence is my problem too.
I long to see a church named “The Dependent Baptist Church of Communityville.” We cannot imagine what would happen in our families, our communities, our states, our nation and our world if we really were submissive to God in every dimension of our lives.
I have not meant to offend you Victoria. I am sincerely ignorant of all of your life except what I read here.
I honestly believe that you genuinely and deeply love our Lord Jesus. I believe that you say and do what you believe. I believe that you care deeply about sharing the Good News of Jesus in word and action.
I would only encourage you to reevaluate what the Bible says about the local church. I believe that Jesus loves His Church (His followers – with all our imperfections) more than anything in the world.
Good Evening, Victoria.
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