Cruel
Since the rumor is that I don’t read the posted comments here, I will quote (with permission) an email I received from a reader. Writing initially to comment on my magazine essay “Control That Tongue,” this man went on to say:
“Now I wish you’d write something about control of the eyes. I don’t know how it affects women, but men need some inner backbone on this subject, too. And someone needs to point out for women the desperate need for modest apparel. Too low at the neck, too high at the hem (if there is one), and too tight up and down—it all cheapens the woman (“strutting her stuff,” so to speak), and makes men’s lives miserable. . . .”
It was the word “miserable” that got to me. I hadn’t heard that adjective used in connection with women’s attire in so long that I thought it wasn’t true anymore. I thought that society had evolved beyond all that Cro-Magnon stuff and now it was merely benignly pleasurable for men to see the “décolletage” that has become as common as ear buds. Reality check!
“I’m in my mid 60s, and I fight this battle every single day, and it is not fun. It’s warfare, and not only in the secular workplace. Even my dear Christian sisters in the Lord are for the most part clueless! And there’s no way to educate them that I know of, because the reaction would be to cry bondage or legalism, or worst of all, ‘What’s wrong with you, man?’ There is nothing wrong with me. I am just a man, struggling every day to keep myself pure, just as the Bible says, ‘The holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.’
“. . . I’m not sure I speak for all men in these matters. I suspect I’m describing the great majority; but it seems as if some are calloused to it, and others may have actually ‘taken their sins into their hearts’ and are living in more or less low-level lusting as a matter of course. I don’t want to get into the ditch of painting all men with the same brush, or the other ditch of excusing ungodly (mental) behavior either. My battles are my own. But having talked with other men, I know that most if not all are similarly affected. In fact, with my counseling of young men, I sometimes tell them the ‘good news’ that there’s victory; but follow it with the ‘bad news’ that it never gets easier, whatever one’s age.”
Note to my gender: We have not cared enough about men, and our guilt is great. “For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes” (Matthew 18:7). If we thought plunging necklines were harmless, a cultural fad; if we sold ourselves the notion that ubiquity made for desensitization; if we deceived ourselves into believing that the game of “entice and deny” was fun for them—let us be sure that this one man’s letter represents thousands. What was lust for thousands of years is still lust. What was cruel for thousands of years is still cruel.
A word from the Lord may suggest just what the doctor ordered:
“Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity”(1 Timothy 5:1-2).
Sanctification begins in the mind. Next time we’re standing by the water cooler, sisters, and engaged in conversation with a colleague of the male persuasion with whom we are tempted to flirt and preen, how about if we pretend that he is our brother, or father. I would not be surprised if this new mental habit proves enormously helpful in curbing the cruelty.
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back to top88 Comments to “Cruel”
I find myself in the ” living in more or less low-level lusting as a matter of course” category. It’s almost like saying “I’m not going to look at a tree”, while standing in a forest. It’s a problem for me even in Church. I feel like a tremendous hypocrite when, standing there singing a praise song (wish it were a hymn, but that’s another subject), and some shapely sister catches my eye. Who shall deliver me from this body of death? Would that I had the guts to pluck my eyes out, like the Lord suggested.
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The word “miserable” got to me, too.
I don’t think men were ever Cro-Magnon (except during the time they really were Cro-Magnon). Men are men, and as the judge once told me “the truth is men will take it where they can find it.” I know he “looked” because of the comments he used to make. He told us once that he was having trouble with a jury as a trial judge because the court reporter was garnering the attention that should have gone to the testimony. So, he hit on the idea of putting on the air conditioning hoping she would cover up. Well, she did — she wore tight-fitting sweaters. What can you do? Get another court reporter.
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Just so you know, I wear sensible shoes, longer skirts and no decolletage. I have a little self-respect.
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This blog post and the comments are getting too close (so to speak) to the Islamic obsession with covering up any visible part of a woman.
Also, reminds me of a time when I was teaching computer classes in public libraries. A blond woman with what appeared to be a very American accent was the only woman who attended a class session. She was dressed very, very modestly, though perhaps not quite enough for full purdah.
At the start, before we got into the class she solemnly informed me, “Because of my faith, it is very important that a man not touch me. I thought I should explain this before we begin.”
I solemnly assured her that I never touched students in classes I tought. And indeed, I kept my hands carefully to myself.
By the way, I know
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Since the rumor is that I don’t read the posted comments here.
I can state with great assurance that Andrée reads your comments. You will have to trust me to accept my assertion. However, I will not suggest you buy bridges from me.
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Andree’ thank you so much. I have just written on this subject for our ladies devotional. In our church I have learned there is a lot of cultural differences among the women. One particular sector dresses up alot more than others. The “dressing up” comes with very tight, lots of cleavage etc. I struggle with how to more effectively how to teach the ladies. Any suggestions?
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Andree’ I see that we can send this article to someone. May I have permission to send it to my distribution list? There are around 100 women and 2 token men?
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JILLER: Please feel free to forward the link (http://online.worldmag.com/2009/10/30/cruel/) to this article to as many people as you like.
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“And there’s no way to educate them that I know of, because the reaction would be to cry bondage or legalism, or worst of all, ‘What’s wrong with you, man?’”
There is the fine point right there. How modest do we dress and at what point do the men just have to deal with it? I use to atted a very legistic church and this point was debated until we were on the brink of burkahs (don’t think Random exaggerates here).
At a picnic with the temp over a hundred one guy started bloviating about modesty because some gals were in sleeveless shirts. No clevege, but apparently he had a hard time with shoulders and armpits. There are boob men and leg men, but who knew there were shoulder mena and ankle men and back of the neck men.
All the men, btw, ere in shorts and some shirtless, but there was never any discussion that if the men demand women to cover up they lead by example. The reason legalism and bondage come up is that is often were it goes.
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I have to agree with this gentleman’s assessment of “clueless”. The church we attended before moving about 7 years ago offered more low-riding pants, bare navels and cleavage (not to mention piercings) on any given Sunday morning than a trip to the bank or post office.
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Deet,
That kind of immodesty is wrong but always difficult to deal with at the door. Those dang sinners keep showing up at church. We have a supply of blouses, sweaters, wraps to lend women who are extremely immodest.
A friend of mine who I had never noticed dressing immodestly came to church and the “dressing up” as mentioned had her in an outfit that was revealing. Part of her heart was in the right place.
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Random,
You seem to be mocking the student who was in your class and insinuating that she may have been on the lunatic fringe or (worse) a prudish Christian. I would bet money that she was an Orthodox Jew and felt the need to tell you that because she wouldn’t even shake your hand, if offered. I know many Orthodox Jewish women and they all dress as you describe and usually say the same thing to men they meet as a courtesy to them.
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Jiller, I would tell the women that sex appeal isn’t necessarily linked to low-cut tops even when dressing up. A little “mystery” might be in order.
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As women, we really should be more considerate of our brothers in Christ and exhort our siisters in Christ to do the same. Consider – are we placing a stumbling block before our brothers in what we wear and how we interact with them? God will not hold us guiltless in this.
When we sin against our brothers in thai way, we are wounding their consciences when they are weak, and are therefore sinning against Christ.
We should not cause a hindrance to the gospel of Christ.
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I’m not quite sure how to deal with this. My husband (of twenty years) has always told me that he can appreciate a shapely woman’s beauty without lusting. (And he occasionally points out to me what he sees that is appealing, such as a full bosom or a tight butt.) He complains that I dress too modestly and wants me to wear tighter pants and shirts and show a little cleavage. One time we went with some church friends to a Baptist retreat center or something like that, in the summer, so we were all wearing swimsuits at the pool, and he was very indignant because I was told my swimsuit was not acceptable and I had to keep my T-shirt on. My suit was technically one-piece but with the midriff bare.
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Women should address what what women wear in church and men should address what men wear in church.
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Pauline, some people mistake attraction for lust. Attraction is not a sin. When that gets mixed up it’s burkah time in some minds.
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Pastor Roy,
It is good to hear from the men sometimes–without our bodies being the reason for their sins–because we really are clueless in some ways. ChippenDales notwithstanding, women can see well built man in a speedo and it real doesn’t sling us over the edge. It is mere attraction. Nothing more for most. So it is good to hear from the men as long as it doesn’t get carried away.
Moderation in all things and for all genders.
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I will never forget being in a clothes store with my then 21 year old son. When we got to the counter there was a girl that showed everything but… and she was huge. He took one look and whispered where he would meet me. I do have to say that I was shocked myself because it was so over the top. That a supervisor didn’t have her cover up is beyond me. When I got done with the transaction he said something I will never forget.
“Mom, how am I supposed to have pure thoughts when women hang everything out?” I can sympathize with your original gentlemen that calls it “miserable”.
Even though women stereotypically haven’t been as visually oriented apparently women are now getting into porn themselves when before it was men mainly. Times are a changing!
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ADIOS, I understand what you’re saying regarding church attendees. I was thinking more in line with active church members, even the wives of deacons. In my case, I knew a lot of these women or their families, many very active. It seems no one wants to address this issue with the youth either.
JILLER, I think with women, it’s more a power issue than lust, though women can and do lust (maybe it’s a lust for power
). Revealing clothing commands attention. The ol’ “shock factor”.
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I recommend a book called Every Man’s Battle by Stephen Art It addresses this very issue and what men can do to overcome being “miserable” as this guy so accurately put it for many of us men
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adios 10.30.09 AT 10:33 AM
Pastor Roy,
It is good to hear from the men sometimes–without our bodies being the reason for their sins–because we really are clueless in some ways. ChippenDales notwithstanding, women can see well built man in a speedo and it real doesn’t sling us over the edge. It is mere attraction. Nothing more for most. So it is good to hear from the men as long as it doesn’t get carried away.
Moderation in all things and for all genders.
–
The battle we had at one of the Churches I worked at was over women clothing. The Senior Ladies, who were raise the women do not wear make up or men style clothing, were upset over what some of the ladies were wearing. These ladies were not raised in such a way and were upset that the Senior Ladies question them on their clothing. Since I was the Senior Ladies Sunday School Teachers I got an ear full ever Sunday.
My wife was in charge of the Ladies Ministry at the time and they had to address the issue. The way she and some of the other ladies handle it was to talk about dressing in a nice way but not like you want to pick up a man. What she found out was the some of the ladies had no ideas that the way they were dressing was causing an issue. Other ladies, well they had an attitude who are you to tell us what to wear.
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#12 Mommy,
I can understand that what you interpret it as mocking. It was not intended as such.
At that time, I had many Muslim women attending my classes. Most were from Iran and from Iraq and places such as that.
I met several American women who told me they had married Muslim men in countries from the Middle East. I worked with an American woman who told me she had married an Iranian man, lived in Iran for a while, and was now back in the United States (with her Iranian husband). She had changed her name from an “American” name to a “Muslim” name (which was a little confusing to me). She was very competent at her volunteer work, so I figured her cultural and religious gyrations were her business, so I didn’t discuss them with her.
As I am not a religious believer, as long as people are not threatening me or causing harm or trouble for me, their religious beliefs are of not much matter to me.
In the case of the student I talked about, I guessed she was married to a Muslim. However, your hypothesis that she might have been an orthodox Jew is certainly in the realm of possibility.
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women have a need to feel beautiful and men have the ability to appreciate beauty. that’s normal. When woman’s “need” to feel attractive and men’s “appreciation” for beauty get out of hand them the problems appear. Who defines what is “too” attractive? when does appreciation for beauty cross the fine line and turn in to lust? when are people going to far or allowing to much(or to little as far as modesty goes), and when are they being too picky?
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Pastor Roy,
I can certainly sympathize with that problem. Some people thing the godly thing to do is whatever way they do it.
At my aforementioned church we had “modesty meetings” all the regular gals towed the line, but then got really peeved when all the singel guys were asking out the new gals or anyone who didn’t tow the line.
Sansend expresses the conundrum well.
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adios 10.30.09 AT 11:31 AM
Pastor Roy,
I can certainly sympathize with that problem. Some people thing the godly thing to do is whatever way they do it.
At my aforementioned church we had “modesty meetings” all the regular gals towed the line, but then got really peeved when all the singel guys were asking out the new gals or anyone who didn’t tow the line.
Sansend expresses the conundrum well.
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That the problem, women feel that the only way to get a man is to dress certain way. That is what our society teaches. Us, men, well we can be stupid animals at time. An look with our eyes and not our heart. Which cause us to miss out on some great women.
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What I find very interesting is you can have two women a black and white woman. The same sizes, and the black women weight does not seem to be an issue in getting men’s attention as a white woman weight.
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I have to agree with Adios(#9).
Modesty is certainly biblical and should be discussed with girls and young women. I think a father also can give somewhat of an eye-opener on this to a daughter.
However, we can also have men blaming women for their lust problem. That is what we see among many Muslim men. A strand of hair loose or an ankle exposed becomes the focus of lust and it is the woman’s fault.
Modesty is quite cultural. In some countries young boys grow up with topless women and it becomes common place and they no longer think a lot of it. We see the same thing in this country in businesses where some nakedness is necessary. What is modest on the beach is not in a business or church setting, etc.
Men also have to let their minds be renewed and their hearts. I don’t believe they have to live in misery.
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PASTOR ROY
That the problem, women feel that the only way to get a man is to dress certain way. That is what our society teaches. Us, men, well we can be stupid animals at time. An look with our eyes and not our heart. Which cause us to miss out on some great women.
for a simplistic point of view it would appear that the more modest women will get the more sensible guys that are not stupid animals or are tired of being that way. And they will care more about them as a person and not just for their sex appeal. And since relationships based on manly attraction have much more problems and breakups,it might not be so bad to not advertise one’s self so much.Wait for some one who see’s your true beauty and the relationship will have a much greater chance of surviving when it does come.
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Another organization wrote recently on this topic and were flooded with responses from all viewpoints–as here.
I’d like to comment on the “cruel” allegation. I wonder if Augustine’s explanation for original sin (the “lust” involved in procreation is the channel for passing Adam’s sin on to each of us) hasn’t permeated parts of society and is what is producing this guilt. But this is a complex theological aspect that may not be appropriate here. Yet I still feel that Andree’s original quoted email was from a man who is messed up theologically.
The other topic, modesty for women unrelated to how any passing man may be reacting, is always something women should be passing on to the next generation. Very few sensible people duspute that our popular culture is often going “too far”.
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I recently read of an account of a man who believed he had to live in misery over this issue. He found out he did not. He did have to change his way of thinking. He set about using God’s word to do this not realizing how much he had changed until a certain incident.
He was in a hot tub when he saw two young women approach in scanty bathing suit. Immediately, he felt a great compassion for them and began to pray for them. He was able to see them as God would have him and not as he previously had.
Though our battle with sin never ends in this life, we do not have to be miserable. That is true for both men and women.
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KI is right. some women do make it quite hard to stay pure and that is wrong, but to the pure all things are pure. Sometimes I think dude, a girl’s shoulder causes you to stumble? get a grip.
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sansend 10.30.09 AT 12:14 PM
PASTOR ROY
That the problem, women feel that the only way to get a man is to dress certain way. That is what our society teaches. Us, men, well we can be stupid animals at time. An look with our eyes and not our heart. Which cause us to miss out on some great women.
for a simplistic point of view it would appear that the more modest women will get the more sensible guys that are not stupid animals or are tired of being that way. And they will care more about them as a person and not just for their sex appeal. And since relationships based on manly attraction have much more problems and breakups,it might not be so bad to not advertise one’s self so much.Wait for some one who see’s your true beauty and the relationship will have a much greater chance of surviving when it does come.
–
I agree, the issue is educating the woman that she can be her self and she can find a great man. As for the man it is educating them that dress does not me, she is going to be a good women.
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Yep, Captain Faris, “Clueless” is not cruel.
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Pastor Roy, I’ve always felt that gals should remind gals of appropriate attire.
One thing I think would be beneficial at least for singles would be for Bible study/Sunday School to be completely separated for young men and women.
My suspicion is that folks would be far more “real” if they were in a setting where attire would not be the big issue we all know it can be.
I recently purchased a good book to help explain Why God Cares About Sex. I’m reading it for “the talk” with my 8 but soon to be 9 yr old daughter. And one point explained porn:
“Many say that such magazines help show how beautiful women are. But most men dont need convincing that women are beautiful”
This was a great book and I’m grateful to my wife for selecting it. #1 Daughter will be 9 in December and I spoze the talk will have to happen soon enough.
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What’s getting to me on this issue is the number of middle-aged Christian women I know who dress modestly themselves, but the moment the new immodest styles came “in” last year, their middle-school and high-school daughters started wearing tight, low-cut clothes showing some of their underwear. I don’t know how either mothers or fathers let this happen. (BTW, Dannah Gresh has a good book or two on modesty written for teen girls, and edited by me.)
Some months ago I was at a baby shower where a young-adult daughter of a friend wore an outfit that wasn’t very modest. I debated whether to say anything to her, since it was a setting of all women, but decided that she’d still worn it “in public,” so the next time I saw her in private I spoke to her gently about it. She not only thanked me, but she took the outfit to her mother and asked her opinion (her mother agreed with me) and decided that in the future she’d “layer” when she wore that piece. Honestly, her humble response absolutely thrilled me. We need more of both sides, I think–older women who can teach and “speak up” (gently) and younger women who are willing to listen.
And I think helping girls to understand that male response is normal, and it’s unkind to put a man in that position, is an excellent part of this.
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Sawgunner 10.30.09 AT 12:23 PM
Pastor Roy, I’ve always felt that gals should remind gals of appropriate attire.
One thing I think would be beneficial at least for singles would be for Bible study/Sunday School to be completely separated for young men and women.
My suspicion is that folks would be far more “real” if they were in a setting where attire would not be the big issue we all know it can be.
I recently purchased a good book to help explain Why God Cares About Sex. I’m reading it for “the talk” with my 8 but soon to be 9 yr old daughter. And one point explained porn:
“Many say that such magazines help show how beautiful women are. But most men dont need convincing that women are beautiful”
This was a great book and I’m grateful to my wife for selecting it. #1 Daughter will be 9 in December and I spoze the talk will have to happen soon enough
–
I think the for Bible study/Sunday School could be separated for certain issues but come togetther for others.
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I agree
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Here in Central Europe (and Europe in general) the apparel, even in the Church, is much more revealing than in the States. In all our years here in the CR, I don’t believe that I’ve ever heard any teaching on the issue. It’s quite common for guys and gals to change clothes in the same changing room of a gym for the occasion of (for example) a mixed volleyball game.
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Tychicus 10.30.09 AT 1:24 PM
Here in Central Europe (and Europe in general) the apparel, even in the Church, is much more revealing than in the States. In all our years here in the CR, I don’t believe that I’ve ever heard any teaching on the issue. It’s quite common for guys and gals to change clothes in the same changing room of a gym for the occasion of (for example) a mixed volleyball game.
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I think I would be asking the Church why are you letting my kid change clothes in the same room. I have a little issue with guys and gals to change clothes in the same changing room of a gym
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I was fired from being a youth pastor for talking about the sins of sexual behavior with teenagers. One Family out of 20 Familes.
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One Family out of 20 Familes rasied a fuss
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Was the fuss that the pastor’s standards were lower or that the family’s standards were lower?
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Pastor Roy: To clarify, such an example wasn’t connected with a local church. I was simply making the point that such a mixed changing room is quite acceptable in the society at large.
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nopm 10.30.09 AT 2:00 PM
Was the fuss that the pastor’s standards were lower or that the family’s standards were lower?
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The family felt that sex’s was an off limited subject in Church. The sad thinks about 6 years after this happen my wife ran into the two oldest girl from that family. They both were happily married. The sad part their father and mother did not come to either of their weddings nor have they seen their grand kids. Their parents disapproved of the husband Christian Faith. They told my wife I was the only one that openly talked about. Why a Christian should wait and the danger of having sex.
The Pastor that fired me, two weeks later after me being fired put me and wife in charge of the Children Church of 5 kids. When We stepped down a few years later God Bless us, and the Children Church was running around 30 Kids, with 5 people working with us. The Family that took over of the youth program, marriage fell apart a few years later an then the Pastor step down after that.
Since then the Church has struggled. An my present Pastor told me, this is what happens when a Pastor gives in to one family and not deal with problems. The Church will loses memebers.
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Tychicus 10.30.09 AT 2:07 PM
Pastor Roy: To clarify, such an example wasn’t connected with a local church. I was simply making the point that such a mixed changing room is quite acceptable in the society at large.
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sorry I took it the wrong way.
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I have to admit that this is one of those topics that is hard to define. There is some truth to the idea that you become somewhat dulled to immodest dress the more you are around it. And I don’t know that it is quite fair to say that you have been hardened to sin in this case since you no longer experience the lusts that you might have when you were only minimally exposed. And yet this obviously shouldn’t be taken to the extreme in that men should watch lots of porn movies so they no longer have an interest in such things.
There is also the weird thing that what we find acceptable on the beach we don’t find acceptable in the office. For some reason the atmosphere seems to affect our standards of what is modest or immodest. And we seem to be able to control our “appetites” in these different situations to some degree.
Some of it is also related to the attitude of the women involved. Some women don’t try to garner interest by body language/attitude and thus two women wearing the same outfit might be modest or immodest depending on their intent.
Then of course there is the actual features of the woman. Is she thin, is she cute, is she athletic, is she voluptuous, is she fat, is she all made-up, etc. All of it comes into play (as does what each man finds attractive).
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nopm – the funny think about the youth group, when he put me in charge they were running about 10 teenager, with in the 3 months we were running between 15 and 20 teenagers. The gang lived the fact I was willing to talk about issue and pointing them to God’s Word.
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Well now if you are going to talk about forbidden things to a room full of hormones then you should fully expect increased interest. (Only partially kidding. And yet the topic is appropriate for the age group, however, I think it would be wise to have several older adults of both sexes sit in on such discussions to be sure things don’t go astray — and to have a few reliable witnesses in case there is some backlash from parents.)
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nopm 10.30.09 AT 2:34 PM
Well now if you are going to talk about forbidden things to a room full of hormones then you should fully expect increased interest. (Only partially kidding. And yet the topic is appropriate for the age group, however, I think it would be wise to have several older adults of both sexes sit in on such discussions to be sure things don’t go astray — and to have a few reliable witnesses in case there is some backlash from parents.)
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The problem was with only one family. The Church Leadership after the Pastor step down. Told me that he never inform them he was dismissing me from, he told them that he just asked me to change roles. The key think is God’s Word is clear, an as I told the Pastor, if you avoid all discussion that some may disagree with. Then you can not talk about God’s Word.
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Pastor Roy,
There seems always to be one family or two who cause problems. Young people need guidance regarding clothing, and what better place to hear it is first at home, and then at church.
We attended a church about ten years ago (evening service) it was a good service – but then the pastor asked several of the teens to come forward as they were going on a ‘missions trip’ – one of the girls (maybe 17) walked forward in a pair of jeans, when she turned around the jeans were low enough in the front to show her navel, and her blouse was a few inches higher than that. We never went back. Her parents should have instructed her long ago not to dress that way, especially in church – the subject should have been addressed in the youth group as a whole, but it obviously hadn’t –
One can’t help but wonder, what the people they visited on their ‘missions trip’ thought about the way they dressed, or did it get worse when they were visiting? That isn’t much of a testimony to those who meet American Christians.
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Victoria 10.30.09 AT 3:00 PM
Pastor Roy,
There seems always to be one family or two who cause problems. Young people need guidance regarding clothing, and what better place to hear it is first at home, and then at church.
We attended a church about ten years ago (evening service) it was a good service – but then the pastor asked several of the teens to come forward as they were going on a ‘missions trip’ – one of the girls (maybe 17) walked forward in a pair of jeans, when she turned around the jeans were low enough in the front to show her navel, and her blouse was a few inches higher than that. We never went back. Her parents should have instructed her long ago not to dress that way, especially in church – the subject should have been addressed in the youth group as a whole, but it obviously hadn’t –
One can’t help but wonder, what the people they visited on their ‘missions trip’ thought about the way they dressed, or did it get worse when they were visiting? That isn’t much of a testimony to those who meet American Christians.
–
I feel that Churches are afraid to address clothing and other issue for fear of being label a legalistic Church.
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I read this book several years ago, and really appreciated it:
A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue by Wendy Shalit
Shalit is Jewish and draws on both Biblical and cultural, sociological, etc. resources in her treatment of the subject.
Here’s one review that you should find helpful:
http://www.fortifyingthefamily.com/Modesty_Revisited.html
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Pastor Roy – 52
If the church can’t address the way one dresses, than it’s no wonder they have problems speaking up about all the other sins which effect Christians, and the way they cope with lust, desire, envy, and materialism,…. to name just a few.
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Two things:
In re: post #1: it’s my opinion that there’s nothing wrong with noticing that a woman is attractive. And that includes the whole body, not just “she has a pretty face”. There is a point, however, where “noticing” becomes “dwelling upon” or “fantasizing about”. That’s when it becomes lust.
In re: modest dress: I’m here to tell you that a lustful heart will not be stopped by the absence of cleavage and short or tight-fitting clothes. Unless we’re talking full-on burka here, one can almost always get a general idea of what a woman’s body is shaped like even when she’s wearing “modest” clothes.
Does wearing modest clothes probably help? Sure. But I think many people overestimate how *much* it helps.
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I only just arrived here and can’t read all the posts.
I just want to say that it is VERY DIFFICULT to find clothes without a PLUNGING NECKLINE. Even children’s clothes have a lot of the same. I guess they are preparing them for adult clothes.
Unless you live in the North where you can wear sweaters, it’s hard to find a decent top or dress.
They even make button shirts that only button up to a certain point. They removed the top buttons. Watch out when you bend over.
And the waist on pants looks like it’s on the rise finally–as seen in Seventeen magazine. For TOO LONG the waist was so low that they finally had to make shirts extra long to meet the new waistline.
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Luckily I don’t have to find clothes for a job. I haven’t bought anything decent in a long long time.
When the temp. drops below 70 I quickly pull out my old sweaters, turtlenecks and longsleeve blouses and get a few days use out them. We don’t have that many days to wear that stuff, and I’m taking advantage of EVERY DIP IN TEMP.
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A friend and I were just discussing this yesterday. I took Baby Girl shopping a week or so ago. We went to 2 or 3 nice department stores. I was looking for something for her to wear besides jeans and a t-shirt. At best, what was available that was “dressy” woulld be described as “Catholic school girl porn attire” So if you see my child at church and she has on jeans, t-shirt, and flip flops she is not being disrespectful, this is all we can find for her to wear.
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Kim 10.30.09 AT 5:49 PM
A friend and I were just discussing this yesterday. I took Baby Girl shopping a week or so ago. We went to 2 or 3 nice department stores. I was looking for something for her to wear besides jeans and a t-shirt. At best, what was available that was “dressy” woulld be described as “Catholic school girl porn attire” So if you see my child at church and she has on jeans, t-shirt, and flip flops she is not being disrespectful, this is all we can find for her to wear.
–
Kim that is a problem
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#51
Victoria,
It seems a little extreme to leave a church over one incident. I doubt anyone would find a church they could attend — especially since we would pollute it the moment we walk in the door.
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We attended one time, we were visitors. We were already attending another church.
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News2me, I cannot find basic, simple, a-line skirts in the warmer months. They make wool ones for winter, so why not for summer?
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Lots of cute t-shirts having round necks with cap, short, three quarter or long sleeves, every inexpensive to very expensive – in all sorts of fabric weight and design.
As far as skirts and dresses, we live in Southern CA – there are lots of nice skirts for any age in many lengths, not all are short and skimpy – some are below the knee worn with either a cute ‘T’ or sweater.
Try Macy’s or some of the other department stores, and check out the web-sites for the them also. It saves time going from to one store to another, OR if you don’t live close enough.
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I’m late getting to this discussion but I have some thoughts on the subject which I hope do not duplicate some of yours.
It would appear that some female contributors to this blog, including the originator, did well in graduate courses of naïveté. God made men and women as sexual beings, the male being given the responsibility to lead, as well as to protect and exercise control over his passions. Men are excited visually, women need to be appreciated and understood before becoming sexually aroused.
Playboy magazine has some 3 million subscribers; Playgirl, 200,000 (estimated, no ABC audit figures available). Men like to ogle women more than conversely.
I do not believe that adult female churchgoers are any more likely to exhibit themselves than, say, servers in a restaurant. Women simply don’t seem to realize how easily and quickly men are tempted and what a dangerous position they put us in. (You know, “If a man lusts after a woman he has already committed adultery in his heart.”) A pastor I had once said, “What’s the difference between appreciation and lust?” Answer: About two seconds.
I may be the oldest contributor to this blog. When I step out of the shower my wife will continue brushing her hair; but when she gets out of the shower I wish I was 40 years younger again.
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#64
Good post.
Another thing I’ve pointed out and had ignored is that humans are oversexed. The world is overpopulated (yes, I know there is no formula to “prove it, but come on). Humans are “in rut” far more than we need for any practical purpose.
Yes. I love sex. Like Allan, I wish I were younger again. But if I could push a button that would reduce human sex drive by 95%, I would push it in a minute.
Whether it is evolution, as I believe, or God, tormenting us for eating a fruit, our current situation is like trying to drive a Ferrari in rush hour downtown traffic.
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Allen, so what has anyone on this blog said that is naive? You made that statement, but didn’t express what you disagree with.
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This is a really important issue. I’ll never forget when we were looking for a church, and went to one where the singer had such a short skirt, that when she stepped up onto the stage we could all see her underwear. That’s not to mention that we could already see almost all of her cleavage. It really upset us all, and although my husband looked at the floor quickly, he refused to go back to that church.
I enjoy dressing modestly, and it doesn’t have to be frumpy or expensive. I love to dress hippie one day, ethnic the next, business-like the next… casual or scruffy the next. I get most of my clothes from the thrift store, the best place to buy modest clothes. Walmart has such immodest clothes that I mostly just get socks and things like that there.
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I might as well. Has anyone noticed the anchors on Fox News? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prudish by any standards, but when cleavage is too extreme, it is beyond what is acceptable.
My grandson, 8, was glaring at the TV one day, (FOX) and pointed out to me that “that lady has some big b**bs.” Sheesh, I almost dropped my paper!. . .”That’s it son, go play.”
Oh, I wholeheartedly agreed, (but not to him). Please ladies, wear a top that keeps cleavage to a minimum, and hemlines to a cautious level; my grandson might be watching!
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contented-joy 10.30.09 AT 10:18 PM
This is a really important issue. I’ll never forget when we were looking for a church, and went to one where the singer had such a short skirt, that when she stepped up onto the stage we could all see her underwear. That’s not to mention that we could already see almost all of her cleavage. It really upset us all, and although my husband looked at the floor quickly, he refused to go back to that church.
I enjoy dressing modestly, and it doesn’t have to be frumpy or expensive. I love to dress hippie one day, ethnic the next, business-like the next… casual or scruffy the next. I get most of my clothes from the thrift store, the best place to buy modest clothes. Walmart has such immodest clothes that I mostly just get socks and things like that there.
–
I had the same issue at a Church I keep looking down and this woman husband asked me if everything was ok. I asked him, when he looks at his wife what did he see. He told me, Oh I think I may have to talk to her about the outfit and the show she is giving every one.
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I’m going to say that I don’t think it’s all the woman’s fault. From experience, I can say that it is a choice on the man’s part to sin. It is possible to not choose sin.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to consistently make that choice. I’d advise this person to understand that he is fallen, and that he is forgiven. Not a blank check to sin at will, but forgiveness for the inevitable slip. We are not saved through works.
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tjs catlover 10.31.09 AT 12:33 AM
I’m going to say that I don’t think it’s all the woman’s fault. From experience, I can say that it is a choice on the man’s part to sin. It is possible to not choose sin.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to consistently make that choice. I’d advise this person to understand that he is fallen, and that he is forgiven. Not a blank check to sin at will, but forgiveness for the inevitable slip. We are not saved through works.
-
agree us men have to work on controling outselves
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What I find interesting is that there have been, in the past, cultures that were much more sexually restrictive than 21st century America, and yet that had female modes of dress that bared *a lot* of cleavage. Take 18th century Europe (or America) for instance:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/euwb/ho_1991.6.1a,b.htm
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TE – 68
We have noticed the same thing on FOX News. In fact it seems some of the ladies are having a contest to see who can do it better – its very un-professional to dress that way. Hannity’s group is the worst -
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To Cheryl D. (66): Thank you for your question-comment. It was late last night when I wrote; I was in a hurry and didn’t explain myself adequately. The mention of naïveté had to do primarily with Mrs. Seu’s blog in which she wrote:
It was the word “miserable” that got to me. I hadn’t heard that adjective used in connection with women’s attire in so long that I thought it wasn’t true anymore. I thought that society had evolved beyond all that Cro-Magnon stuff and now it was merely benignly pleasurable for men to see the “décolletage” that has become as common as ear buds. Reality check!
The thoughts of males in regard to the female body aren’t much different, if any, from the thoughts and lusts of men thousands of years ago. (Recall King David upon seeing Bathsheba, for instance — and there are others.)
I did not mean to place any of the blame or responsibility on the woman, except that she is often ignorant of what we men look at–and think–and she does not take into account our weaknesses. Yes, we men should be able to admire the female form, draped or not, for its beauty, its proportion, its symmetry and delicacy, and it’s not the woman’s fault that we can’t. Perhaps our Maker should have given men less sex drive but I’m sure there’s an excellent reason that He didn’t. One day I’ll understand it fully.
Of course there are intentional temptresses. They know exactly what they’re doing but may be unaware of the peril to which they are exposing themselves. Once sexually aroused a man is not easily quieted until the sex act is completed.
All I’m trying to say is: Ladies, dress attractively and in style (if you are able) but conceal the bare flesh for a more fitting time.
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As far as newscast anchors dressing provocatively, the worst offenders (and I say this tongue in cheek) appear to be the gals on the Spanish news shows like Primer Impacto. And they sit with their legs crossed beneath those transparent table tops.
I watched those shows when we had decent TV reception mainly to improve my Spanish.
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For the record, Andree Seu essays normally get less than 10 posts. This many is as far as I know an historic first for her.
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Sawgunner –
We don’t watch Spanish TV – however we sure have noticed a big splash on the rest of the networks and cable news, it’s nothing to be proud of and that INCLUDES FOX NEWS.
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73 Victoria
It must be a ‘hope a lot of men watch just to see the hemlines and cleavage’ type attitude. And they must pass out peroxide in the make-up room. Have you ever seen so many blondes?
Plus, since we are ranting on Fox; it would seem to me that to entice more minorities, they would put more up front as anchors. For example; Harris Falkner. . seem pretty savvy and has good diction. . .. On FNC. .. .Charles Payne. a super guy and a lot brighter than Juan Williams. Idonno. ..
The only ones that seem to have some decorum of dress on Fox, is Megyn Kelly, Gretchen Carleson and Harris Falkner. Or, it seems to me.
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TE
I like FOX and the way they present the news – I’ve become less enamoured regarding Hannity and his girls, that isn’t news, its a shriek session with those who thought they were going to a cocktail party, but confused they found themselves at FOX –
I’m not interested in ethnic groups but the truth, this country is in a crisis we don’t have time to play minority, ethinic whatevers – this isn’t about skin color or a country it’s about what this country was founded upon – taking from those who provide jobs to weaken their ability to continue the employment of those who cast their vote for SOCIALISM.
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For the record, Andree Seu essays normally get less than 10 posts. This many is as far as I know an historic first for her.
1. Sex sells. Even on wmb.
2. I’ve set it as a goal to increase Andrée’s readership and promote the proper spelling of her name.
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R N, how do you get the accent mark over the e? I’m not sure how to do it.
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Thank you, Andree! This is one reason why Titus 2 ministry is so desperately needed in the church. This brother is right – it is not his nor the pastor’s job to confront these women. It’s other women’s responsibility. May the Lord grant us women more love for our brothers instead of this nasty attitude, “I can wear what ever I want. It’s their problem, not mine.” We ARE our brothers’ keepers.
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And may the Lord grant us men who do not blame women for their lack of renewing their minds and hearts.
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Very true, KI. However as women, we need to work on ourselves. If we don’t start with righteousness ourselves, we have no right to expect it from our brothers.
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Contented Joy (81): I’m not Random Name (obviously) but the answer to your question about the accent mark over the letter “e” isn’t hard, but the method using a Microsoft processor and an Apple machine is, I think, different. I am informed that the method using a laptop computer may also be different. For a Windows Operating System try this:
First, be sure that the numeric key pad is activated (it usually is. For a simple test press a number key from the key pad and verify that the proper number is displayed.)
Next, press and hold the Alt key while depressing, in sequence, 0233. Release the Alt key.
It may be just as easy, or simpler, even, to select and copy this character é then paste in Andrée’s name.
(Pardon me Random Name for stepping on your lines.)
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Thanks Allen Wrench – and thanks Andrée, for your thought provoking articles.
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Some biblical advice,
For men:
Since the Fall, men have always had a problem with their eyes and thoughts about women. Even in Job’s day it was a problem, so he purposely averted his eyes and controlled his thoughts. Lustful thoughts grow within men who do not control their eyes. Men who let their eyes wander and linger over scantily clad women (or images of women) invite great trouble into their lives. God sanctions sex within the confines of marriage only—keep it that way in both thought and deed.
For women:
Since the Fall, women have been acutely aware of the power of sexual attraction in their dealings with men. What a shame it is to see a woman prostitute God’s gift of her beauty to the “pawing” of men’s lust. Such a woman wastes and spoils God’s gift which should be reserved for her husband alone. She was created as a helpmate for her husband, not a sex object for every man who sees her in revealing attire. Women, for good or bad, have control over what men see. She can be either shameful or honorable—it’s up to her.
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Michael Martin, I so much appreciate your reminding us of such Good and needed advice from the Good Book. It’s easy for us to get caught up with and even compete with the world. We need to gently remind each other of what things we should think on and how attractive modesty can be. Thanks to you.
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