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'Horror film': Nigerian Christians fear for their lives after another brutal attack
Second chance?: An important debate on the future of the D.C. school voucher program begins
President Obama, as part of a final push to pass healthcare reform, will appear on Fox News Wednesday.
Settlements continue: Israel continues building in the West Bank, despite assurances 
Good morning!
On this day in 1938: The radio play “The War of the Worlds,” starring Orson Welles, aired on CBS.
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back to top309 Comments to “Whirled Views 10.30”
Good morning. Are there Christians on other planets?
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If you’d consider Rhode Island another planet, which I would completely understand, then the answer is YES.
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#2
If there is no Roger Williams alive on Rhode Island today, is there a sound in that colony?
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In regard to Joe’s challenge to me about Bible prophecy in yesterday’s Whirled Views, I predict and guarantee the next message will:
a) disappoint
b) no prove or disprove anything.
Do I need to go back and refer the specific comment numbers from yesterday, or is everybody
a) right on top of it?
b) already bored with the topic beyond belief?
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A few points to be noted:
1) At some point in their lives, most people decide: This is what is true. Once they have reached that point, they then spend most of their time and energy backing up those beliefs and refuting the beliefs of people who disagree with them.
2) In some cases, empiricism interferes with or discourages this process. For example, although some people may disagree with Newton’s laws, driving one’s automobile into a wall at over a hundred miles an hour tends to refute their argument, at least for the driver.
3) However, in most cases no such dramatic “proof” takes effect. Thus at places such as worldmagblog, people argue endlessly and no one (in general) ever changes their mind. As I’ve said, the word “proof” has very little meaning.
As a practical result, I don’t expect anyone to reply to me, Random, you have proven your point, I admit it, “fulfilled” Biblical prophesy does not “prove” the Bible is true.
Does anyone here expect me to say, Yes, Joe, you have proven your point. The Bible is True. I have no been “born again in Jesus Christ.”
Given these patterns, I am only going to invest a small amount of time in this argument.
There is a long history of discussing Bible predictions. The following web site gives an example of these discussions and proofs and counter-proofs and insults and counter-insults. I read enough for my prejudices and beliefs to withstand Joe’s arguments. I am fairly sure there is enough there for Joe to be convinced he has won his disagreement with me.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/09/100-challenge.html
Your mileage may vary.
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Too much of, “When prove comes to shove”?
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Good moring all. I have been awake since about 4 am. The cute little dog in the avatar and I have already been for our morning walk. I have rousted the Uppity Cat and the Baby Girl/Darling Daughter and we are going about our day. I have a treat scheduled for myself sometime today, I just have to find thte appointment card and figure out exactly what time it is.
I went on a listing appointment yesterday and got it!!!! Whoo hoo! Also the guy is an avid hunter. I suggested he take down animal heads and move the skins into storage. He said anyone offended by it shouldn’t look at his house. I asked which head was the dumb gazelle that he shot by the watering hole. He showed me. He also had a bearskin from hunting in Canada. I did con
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cofnvince him to move the guns out of the house. People looking could come back at a more “convenient time”. Anyway, he is selling some things at a gun show this weekend and is going to take a couple of my guns and see what he can get for them. He showed me in a pricing book what he would ask for them. I have known him for a couple of years so I am OK with this. Hopefully he will sell the Reutger (sp?) and that will carry me through the coming month.
Arcadia, if you are around today, I am on the Women’s Council of Realtor’s Education Committee (actually I am the committee) do you have any suggestions for things realtors need to know in the current market? Any one else is welcome to reply as well.
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well, I do have a question for you Kim……only because I don’t know. My question is: Why does the real estate market flucuate every few years or so? One time it’s a buyer’s market, then the trend goes towards a seller’s market. What determines that?
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#6
Before automatic transmissions and computers took over automobiles, one could sometimes start a vehicle with a dead battery by shoving the auto and popping the clutch.
It may be a sin to pop a clutch.
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Radio Ga-Ga – Queen (1983)
I’d sit alone and watch your light
My only friend through teenage nights
And everything I had to know
I heard it on my radio
You gave them all those old time stars
Through wars of worlds — invaded by Mars
You made ‘em laugh — you made ‘em cry
You made us feel like we could fly
So don’t become some background noise
A backdrop for the girls and boys
Who just don’t know or just don’t care
And just complain when you’re not there
You had your time, you had the power
You’ve yet to have your finest hour
All we hear is Radio ga ga
Radio goo goo,
Radio ga ga
All we hear is Radio ga ga
Radio blah blah
Radio what’s new?
Radio, someone still loves you!
We watch the shows — we watch the stars
On videos for hours and hours
We hardly need to use our ears
How music changes through the years
Let’s hope you never leave old friend
Like all good things on you we depend
So stick around cos we might miss you
When we grow tired of all this visual
You had your time, you had the power
You’ve yet to have your finest hour
All we hear is Radio ga ga
Radio goo goo
Radio ga ga
All we hear is Radio ga ga
Radio goo goo
Radio ga ga
All we hear is Radio ga ga
Radio blah blah
Radio what’s new?
Someone still loves you!
You had your time, you had the power
You’ve yet to have your finest hour
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Kim, from what I’ve heard, it may be easier to get the guy to remove the guns than it is to get a guy to remove the “lewd” paintings of naked women over their beds. Just what I’ve heard.
Real estate is an interesting business.
Justus, homes are generally a good deal over the long haul. Of course, if you purchased during the boom times a few years ago and have to sell now, too bad, so sad.
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Kim, are you also president of the WCRE? It’s hard to sell a house for someone who doesn’t care if it gets sold, isn’t it?
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Random Name asks if there are Christians on other planets.
Depends on the planet.
A Christian ‘on’ Jupiter (distinct surface hard to define) would have to contend with an atmosphere which is about 70% hydrogen (if my memory is correct). It would be a mistake in that atmosphere to light any Nativity candles or use gas burners when cooking the turkey for the Christmas fellowship supper.
On the other hand, for the same reason, a pagan would have to do without any Burning Man celebrations, or Aphrodite incense candles, which would cut down on their hilarity considerably.
Smoking cigars on Jupiter is also not advisable, unless you are especially equipped (Edmund Scientific catalog can possibly help you here).
Anyway, it depends on the planet.
A more INTERESTING question is whether there are any ACTUAL atheists in the universe.
My opinion is there are none, at least when the last bill comes due and there is a sort of spectral knock at the door.
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Now, Drill, you shouldn’t mock Random’s greatest fear.
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Also, Pluto is too cold, even in July. I have been there and it is quite unpleasant, what with the ceaseless biting wind whipping off the frozen methane lakes near the poles.
If you must go, take a warm jacket and a pair of gloves.
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thud
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Now Drill . . . Pluto is no longer a planet.
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There is no hope for you then Random. If you do not accept that the prophesies given by the prophets were fulfilled just as they predicted them to happen, then there is absolutely no hope for you.
Just so you know, in the book of Deuteronomy, the punishment for giving a prophesy that did not come to pass, was a death sentence.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
“You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’
“When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
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Interesting is the word for it. A sellers market is when you have one more buyer than you do houses and a buyers market is when you have one more house than you do buyers. Plain old supply and demand. Right now there are so many people putting their fingers in stirring that it is harder than usual.
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Over the past ten years or so, I’ve noticed an odd trend: Lightning bugs have become scarce while the population of ladybugs has exploded. Is there a connection? Has anyone else noticed this?
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Is it a bird? Is it a plane?
Who’s that flying down a dirt road in a cemetery in his car (on two wheels with accompanying flying gravel), with an 18 year old exotic dancer by his side, a sack of (ahem) marital aid products, and a pocket full of male enhancement pills?
Why, it’s Roland Corning, the 66 year old Republican Assistant Attorney General for South Carolina, that’s who!
Of course, he’s now been invited to retire, and has accepted that invitation. So, amend the baove to “former”.
Question: is something in the plumbing in South Carolina government buildings that makes both Republican and Democrat politicians unable to control their mouths and other body parts over which discretion should be exercised? Between the Governor “hiking the Appalachian trail”, a clown yelling “you lie!” at the President, idiots saying that “Jews are good with money”, and this cemetery Duke of Hazzard catching air with his car with a tail of plastic and pills trailing behind him like a bizarre comet – do the roads get paved and bonds get issued?
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/police-sc-state-attorney-176245.html
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Could some less linguistically challenged person follow up on this story?
http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2009/10/toppled-madagascar-president-accuses_29.html
Does World cover foreign news stories that do not involve the USA? I know that nobody else does.
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NJLawyer,
Hi.
Can you tell me anything about letting a house forclose? Our credit rating has been tops, but the sale of the house (which hasn’t happened) started to put us under, we were going in the red significantly each month.
So we missed two payments to keep from going under and to try to catch up in other areas.
Our house is priced below below what we paid. No dice. We’re trying to short sell.
Mortgage company wouldn’t even talk to us until we had enough missed payments. To be honest, it seems like a foreclosure would be a relief. But, because it was a large mortgage, we bought the house on two mortgages.
I’m embarrassed/ ashamed to admit that. It truly seemed doable at the time, then a bunch of things happened that made our undertaking a hardship. I don’t live in the house. It seems like forclosure would be a mercy..
Thanks for listening..
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I am absolutely sure Drill is not yeah. Also, he was not on the recording where the Beetles sang yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Interesting. My comment posted at 911… How appropriate!
PS to all:
TGIF! Hope we all have a great and rejuvenating weekend.
When is Halloween? I have candy, but thought it was today. I don’t recall it ever being on a Saturday.
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Here we go, there is some coverage after all, although without the French connection
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601116&sid=aUpA9P.OJNrk
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Random: See a comment I just posted on the WV 10/29 thread, re: Isaiah.
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EYG – not speaking for NJL here, but for your long term financial health, it’s better to take a loss on the house than it is to let it foreclose. Late mortgage payments are do real damage to your credit rating. Foreclosure, even worse – although I think future creditrs will be used to seeing your situation.
Can you rent it to someone responsible on a month to month basis?
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Kim, I should have directed my question to you as well.
I must say, I could probably handle seeing a couple of hunting heads, even though I find them disconcerting… But too many is disturbing to me. I’m not against guns or hunting, even though I can’t imagine doing it myself, but a house full of mounted heads sounds very unapealling. I hope he takes your advice. Of course, his home may be a hunter’s dream home. I’d fall into the ’shouldn’t be looking then’ category.
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“Pluto is no longer a planet.”
Now now… Those of us who grew up loving Pluto as a planet won’t abandon her now…. Let those foreigners think what they will. Us true believers will never give her up.
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I don’t know, STUBOB, in my part of the Midwest we have plenty of both. But the lady bug thingys are about to take over! Another example of introducing a bug for one problem only to create another bug problem!
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Michelle, while house hunting for the third straight day in Washington state: “I can’t buy a house that has lion wallpaper and no books lying around.”
The practical husband: “Let’s go bowling instead of house hunting today.”
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Thomas, there’s nothing moving in the area, and it’s not the type of house you rent. Apparently, it’s not the type of house you buy, either.
We know it’d be a huge hit. Seriously, we can’t afford to keep paying it after we moved. I know how irresponsible this sounds. We’ve been fortunate to be able to pay our bills on time throughout our lives, but it’s the house payment or everything else. One area has to suffer. We’ve tried until we were almost out of available credit to bridge the discrepancy.
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EYG, Halloween is tomorrow.
There are Lady bugs all over my car port. I need to do something before they get in the house, But I don’t like to kill them because they are so so cute in the kiddie books.
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Things are still looking good for Virginians electing McDonnell as governor and I’m wondering if 0bama can help Corzine squeak by in NJ?
Today I’ll be researching scholarships for #2 granddaughter who wants to go into nursing. Any pointers, anyone?
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Make it man,
I’m with you. Pluto is a planet, and I’m not abandoning her either. What will they come up with next?
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Tomorrow is “Reformation Day!
492 years ago tomorrow, the Protestant Reformation was born and yes, I’m counting down to the 500th anniversary in 2017! On October 31, 1517, Martin Luther bravely nailed a list of 95 propositions to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, challenging some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church at that time. He loved the church enough seek constructive reform.
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Kbells. I grew up that ladybugs are a good sign! (like butterflies are). I’d be delighted!
I love ladybugs and am thinking of hiding one in all of my paintings as a trademark. That, and a butterfly.
PS to somebody: I know Christians aren’t supposed to believe wives tales or be supersticious, but we probably all are anyways –to a certain degree.
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On that 31st of October 492 years ago, Luther began a process that did more to influence Western history than any other deed or event since Jesus’ resurrection. The Protestant Reformation represented a bold step forward in motivating people to dare to think (and read their Bibles) for themselves. Luther went on to translate the Bible into his common language. This rise in independent thinking led to the Enlightenment, and to the rise of science and technology and to other ideologies of freedom. It also expanded and refined Christendom and even helped to foster improvements in the Catholic Church as well.
The road to reform was bumpy, but the big picture (as well as many of the smaller positive details) gives us much for which to joyfully celebrate every October 31st! Don’t let all those witches, spooks, goblins and cavities blind you to the life-enhancing freedom that took root because a man courageously called his culture back to its biblical roots.
Teach your children to remember this and maybe they will give our culture a similar call!
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Halloween is always on the 31st of October no matter what day it falls on.
I heard the lightening bug thing was because of global warming–don’t shoot the messenger (same with the Pluto comment).
Never kill a ladybug. They eat aphids. I actually buy them every spring for our jacaranda tree. But trying to convince ladybugs that they belong to me is difficult. They listen about as well as teenagers.
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#19
Everyday, I say to myself, before or after I get on the treadmill, Random, dear fellow, you know you will cease to exist.
I am reading a good book at the moment, about the thinking of existential philosopher/anthropologist, Ernst Becker, (author of Denial of Death),
Transference & Trancendence, by Daniel Liechty.
Apparently, Mr. Liechty was a liberal theologian at one time. I believe this is called an oxymoron.
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EYG–have you examined the crown.org website for answers to your questions? Not to be cruel– because I, too, understand the paralyzing problem of two mortgages and tight money– but to some extent this could become a spiritual issue–are you good for your word?
Just because it is common in our society, doesn’t necessarily mean it is okay to do. I know you know that, but . . . God often uses our circumstances to stretch us in ways we don’t want to be stretched for purposes we cannot see. When our house finally sold, after a year and very dramatic drop in price, we were down to our last $1500 in savings. A very difficult year in a lot of ways.
Blessings to you.
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K BELLS, the bugs around here aren’t really lady bugs. I think they’re called Japanese Lady Beetles. Some have spots,some don’t and they’re more orange than red.
I think they were originally introduced down South to control aphids in the pecan trees. The thinking was that they couldn’t survive farther north because of the colder temps, but low and behold, they thrive quite well. Here, they hang around in the soy bean fields all summer and then when harvest (and cooler weather comes) comes, they’re everywhere, inside and out.
By the way, they bite/pinch and stink when squashed. Or if they happen to dive bomb into a halogen floor lamp and incinerate.
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Has anyone ever seen Votre Toast performed by Dmitri Hvorovstovsky? I happened upon it on You Tube and just loved it!! Would love to know what you think. You will have a reaction/response. Can’t post a link, but want to share it for kicks. I love seeing someone do something very well…excellently. This is the best all around performance of The Toreador Song I’ve ever heard. If anyone knows how, I hope you’ll post a link to make it easy for others.
I’d love to know what you all think.
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EYG, of course you will want to talk this over with an attorney and a CPA, but I would call the bank and talk to whoever it is that you have been speaking with, explain the situation, apologize, and let the house foreclose. Lenders and creditors in the future are going to see a lot of this. When they pull your credit they will be able to see you had stellar credit until such and such happened. Once the house is foreclosed and you are out from under it, go buy a new car. I KNOW this sounds stupid and I am a firm believer that the cheapest car you will ever drive is the one you are currently driving, but car companies report to the credit bureau a lot and it will build your credit up faster than anything else.
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EYG – I am very sympathetic, and I do not think you were being irresponsible. You probably made decisions based on what you knew at the time. And no one anticipated what Madoff and the credit default swaps market would do to the economy. Please don’t beat yourself up. Many people are sympathetic.
But! Get creative. Perhaps offering your empty home to a local business as an off-site meeting place, or a religious group?
Was one of your mortgages adjustable? Have you seen this: http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/02/19/faq-who-qualifies-for-housing-bailout/
Or this: http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/reports/modification_program_guidelines.pdf
CAUTION: beware of people who say they”help” you file the paperwork for a fee. You should only deal with a regulated agency or lender. Hucksters abound.
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Random – “Everyday, I say to myself, before or after I get on the treadmill, Random, dear fellow, you know you will cease to exist.”
Random, this is a serious question for you: after you say that to yourself, do you every wonder what’s the point of your life? And for that matter, life in general? Just curious.
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College Football Friday
Here it is. Pick the winners as well as the final score of the tie breaker. This week, since Arizona seems to be taking another week off, the tie breaker is USC (that’s South Carolina, in honor of Chas) at Tennessee (in honor of Anlir, wherever he is). And don’t forget the weekly ESPN Bottom Ten “pillow fight” between two of the worst teams in D-1 football. In fact, the teams this week are so bad, Mark Schlabach says, “When it’s all over, at least one of them will be disguised as a winning team.” Remember, guess the score of the tie breaker along with just the winners of the other games.
Nebraska (4-3) @ Baylor (3-4)
#25 Mississippi (5-2) @ Auburn (5-3)
#5 U So Cal (6-1) @ #10 Oregon (6-1)
#12 Penn State (7-1) @ Northwestern (5-3)
Temple (5-2) @ Navy (6-2)
Pillow Fight: Western Kentucky (0-7) @ North Texas (1-6)
Tie breaker: #22 South Carolina (6-2) @ Tennessee (3-4)
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Michelle, I’m sure it’s a spiritual problem at some level, although we entered in different circumstances than we have now. Up until two months ago our credit report showed no late payments on any bills throughout our credit history.
We have had to decide between two evils: not paying that mortgage or not paying anyone else. We were using credit to make up what we couldn’t pay while house sold. Almost completely out of available credit, we would then not be paying anybody.
I know this sounds like tsk tsk circumstances. God understands. He really does. It’s humbling and we’re dealing with t in faith although it may not immediately appear that way to the observer.
I wonder if God sometimes allows us to be where we will be misunderstood etc… I’m okay with that. I know it’s got an ending, but paying that mortgage is no longer possible for us without finding ways to get in deeper debt than were in. That kind of debt is like artificial life support to the patient who would be resting in peace if they weren’t being kept alive needlessly.
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I’ll pick the Cornhuskers over Baylor (their still smarting from last week).
Ol Miss over the Tigers
Trogans over the quackers
Joe Pa’s N-lions over Northwestern
Navy to sail past Temple
North Texsas takes the pillow fight and the other USC over the Vols (hope they show that game out here).
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EYG, that’s kind of what I’m thinking, that killing a lady bug is like killing a butterfly or a lightening bug.
When I worked at the TV Network an audio tech brought a speaker in from an outdoor venue and set it up in the studio. He didn’t know it was invested with lady bugs until they started showing up on live shows, crawling across people clothes and all over the set. Several other girls and I saved as many as we could by scooping them up sheets of paper and releasing them outside before they sprayed the studio.
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Kim and Thomas thank you for your input. My husband and I will view those links at lunch.
Thanks, folks.
Kim thanks for that car tip. We’ve never had a new one! I don’t even know what I’d buy. We wish they still made cars where you could sit next to each other, arm in arm and you could take a Sunday drive… You know, like Doris Day and Rock Hudson in Pillow Talk?
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I happen to think that busting someone’s chops about whether they are “good for their word” and suggesting that they have a spiritual issue to deal with is both absurd and mean in this economy in general, and in EYG’s situation in particular.
S/he asked for help with a problem. People here should be offering real suggestions (and prayer) instead of “tsking”.
Kim has a point about talking to the bank, but I disagree on the tactics. The bank does not want to own your house. When they do, they must pay taxes, maintenance, and watch out for vandals. It’s a liability for them, not an asset. Since you have good credit, try to rework the loans.
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I agree on the virtue of lady bugs. What about “squash bugs?” KLASKO, ever see them in your area?
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Kbells #52,
: )))
you all did a good deed
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Christians should tread lightly when discussing Bible prophecy – especially when it comes to predictions of when the second coming of Christ will be.
Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecies concerning the Messiah. There are many excellent books on this subject. However, most modern Christian predictions (interpretations) about the second coming of Christ (specifically the dates and times thereof) make our faith look ridiculous and subject Christianity to much dishonor in the secular world.
As a Christian and partial-preterist, I know our Lord will return someday. In the meantime, we should continue to carry out the Great Commission and calm down about our obsession with end times. If “dates and times” are your great passion consider another perspective: http://www.preteristarchive.com/
Grace to you. . . .
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So much activity on here today!
Deet has it right, as far as the bugs invading the Midwest. They have no natural enemies, as birds find them too disgusting in taste, so they avoid them. They have pretty much wiped out the native lady bug population around here. So, if it is not red with spots, it is not a lady bug.
FOOTBALL PICKS:
Adios- you need to give a score for the tie breaker.
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EYG, as you know I went to the brink of bankrupcy and didn’t have to go all the way over. Right now the most important thing is to get your credit cards down below half their limit. When you hit the limit or close to it and stay there is starts eroding your credit. This is part of what happened to me. No the bank doesn’t want your house and you may be able to work something out with them but as a realtor who has been involved in a couple of short sale situations, the banks aren’t real helpful. I don’t know who your mortgage is with but Countrywide and Bank of America are nightmares to deal with. Every time you call you get a different person, you have to submit all sorts of financials, write a letter, get several Broker Property Opinions, etc. The best
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Ladybugs are often crawling on the outside of my office window. Seeing their little undersides, I get a vaguely embarrassing feeling that I’m watching something I shouldn’t.
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the best one I have dealt with was Flagstar. I called, submitted my letter from my seller authorizing me to talk to the mortgage company, sent in a CMA of the house, was given a contact name and her email. We talked once or twice a week and within a month of the offer we had a closing date set. I hear horror stories from other agents. I think in the long run you can explain away a foreclosure a lot easier than you can explain away a bunch of credit debt you had to default on or file bankruptcy. I think explaining to the bank how long you have had the house on the market etc might help. Surely they know the market in the area and what is going on.
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I understand your point, Thomas, but I also was speaking from my own experience. I also recognize the times are different than they were in 2001, which is why I pointed her to crown.org.
And EYG knows I have no interest in hurting her.
But thanks for a reminder to be gentle and to pray more.
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Football picks:
Nebraska
Mississippi
Oregon
Penn State (Northwestern had a miracle comeback last week, but come on people, it was against Indiana!)
Navy
Pillow Fight: North Texas (I’m getting killed be this game every week!)
South Carolina 24, Tennessee 17 (Good luck, Chas)
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Nana – Whay are “squash bugs”?
I have only seen occasional ladybugs this past summer.
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Thank you, Thomas.
And,
I know we all mean well. I’m in one of those positions that just looks bad. It’s humbling. But at the same time, we are learning that we can’t always control what we look like. I’m also noticing that Jesus wasn’t that interested in how he was percieved, either. Were dying to it, and that’s probably pretty important to do.
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Nebraska beats Baylor
Mississippi over Auburn (Is that right KBells?)
Oregon over the other USC
Penn State over N’Western
Navy should beat Temple
Western Kentucky over N. Texas
USC 21, Tennessee 14
(Acutally that Carolina score can’t be right because it doesn’t allow for the Gamecocks to get into the red zone and have to settle for a field goal. But I’m going with it.)
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EYG, if you are really facing foreclosure and you can face up to facts, either discuss a short sale with the bank, which is a good idea, or if you are willing to walk away, there is always the possibility of deeding the property over to the bank. There’s no foreclosure, there’s no hassle with a short sale, and you can move on. It’s short and sweet. The most difficult thing you have to do now is assess your situation in as “cold” a manner as possible. Look at the numbers and decide on that. Bankruptcy stays with you for 7-10 years and has a real impact on future loans. It will always show up in a judgment search. Sometimes, and I think Kim will bear me out on this, it’s safer (and less stressful) to just take a deep breath, bite the bullet, and suck it up, as crass as that might sound.
(Can you survive bankruptcy? Yes. There are worse things that can happen to you. So head up!)
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No, Thomas, banks don’t want to be in the real estate business, but that’s what they get for all their bad nonsense — and that has nothing to do with EYG. EYG should so what is best for her and her family, and if that means deeding over the house and making it their problem, so be it.
Take this from criminal law: don’t love ‘em, don’t hate ‘em, they don’t care about you, don’t care about them.
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Sorry PeterL
24-21 South Carolina
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Nebraska (4-3)
Mississippi (It doesn’t matter, Chas, Hubby has lost all hope for anything but a miraculous spoiling of Bama’s year, which ain’t gon’ happen)
U So Cal
Penn State
Navy
North Texas
Tie breaker: South Carolina 42 @ Tennessee 35
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NJL,
Thanks.
I would looove to deed it back, but perhaps they won’t allow it?
What about 2nd mortgage?
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Holy cannolis, I agree with NJL @ 68. Next, a pig will sail over Grand Central Station on gossamer wings, singing “It Was Just One Of Those Things” in Frank Sinatra’s voice.
Deregulation, greed and fraud combined in a perfect storm to make our banking system a joke. I feel bad for EYG and others similarly situated.
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#48 Klasko
Random, this is a serious question for you: after you say that to yourself, do you every wonder what’s the point of your life? And for that matter, life in general? Just curious.
Certainly, Klasko, I wonder about those questions. I think that is why most people are not “afraid of death.” They are distressed over thinking that their life will end without there being any point to having lived.
For many people, though not all, the point becomes the little extensions of ourselves, called children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and so on.
For the last four years I have been chronicling the events and experiences of my granddaughter on my blog. I am now in the process of collecting all my writings on this topic and storing them where the mommies will be able to find them and provide her with them so she can read about what she was like when she was two and three and four and five.
Will this be important? Probably not. Also, the mommies have hundreds of photographs and notes and measurements. Random Granddaughter may be one of the most documented children in history. I can imagine her snarling, “Enough about me, already! Please let me have a life! And no, I still hate salad. I don’t care if green foods are good for me.”
I just heard on NPR about how Murbarak, President of Egypt, a country which abolished its monarchy some years ago, is maneuvering to arrange so his son can succeed him. Then, of course, there are the Kims in North Korea.
Any point to any of it? I doubt it.
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Thanks, Adios.
Scott: That’s what makes the pillow fight interesting. How do you pick a winner among losers?
My picks this week:
Baylor (Just because I don’t like Nebraska)
Auburn (Just because… Well, I’ll think of something)
SoCal (Just because of tradition)
Penn St (Just because it’s Joe Pa’s team)
Navy (Just because I like Navy)
NTex (Just because I have friends in Denton)
SoCar 42 Tenn 20 (Just because So Car is better than TN this year)
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KBells, ain’t nobody gonna score that many points. You all know that USC is the underdog against the Vols don’t you?
I would like to comment on Samuel’s #57, but I have to go to Lions. I mostly agree with him. Maybe later.
And EYG, I will pray that it works out for you.
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#45 Here is the link that I found, not very good at it but it should work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtM8k4KDUP4&mode=related&search=
My prayers are with you on the house situation.
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Random- You ask if there are Christians on other planets. If there is life somewhere else in this universe (and I have no reason to believe there is not), then God is creator of that planet as well. Therefore, there would be His worshipers on that planet.
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About ten years ago we had to stop paying the mortgage on the house we owned in NJ. We had moved to MI when my husband was called to be a pastor, and we did all the stuff the realtor said to do to make the house look good. We cut the price again and again. What we were asking was at least $10K less than we had paid – and less than we still owed (we had only been in the house about 7 years, and had only put $5000 down). We rented a house in MI the first year, then bought a house, and we couldn’t keep paying for two houses.
At first the mortgage company (not a bank) said they couldn’t help us, because we had been keeping up with the payments. And here we thought that doing all we could to keep current was a good thing! They said we couldn’t stop making payments in order to qualify for debt mitigation program, but that if we were to become three months behind on our payments we would qualify. So we stopped making payments.
I didn’t like doing it at all, but at that point there really wasn’t anything else we could do. We were accepted in the program, and as soon as the realtor found a buyer, at an even lower price, the mortgage company took that as payment and released us from obligation to pay anything more. It was on our credit report for several years, and each time we purchased a car we had to explain the whole situation to the bank, but it wasn’t a foreclosure so it wasn’t considered too bad. We had no trouble buying the house we have now (though sometimes now I wish we had, because if we’d been forced to live somewhere much cheaper, we might be in less of a mess now).
I am determined to follow Dave Ramsey’s program now, and get out of debt, and avoid it completely in the future. (Unfortunately I don’t think my husband is as committed to the idea.)
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Random,
Interesting question to ponder. Check out C.S. Lewis’s space trilogy consisting of Out of Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.
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75. Chas, my knowledge of football consist of just enough to to annoy Auburn fans and who has the prettiest colors.
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Chas
The problem with College Football is going undefeated mean nothing, due to the fact they do not play good teams out of conference and one lost teams mean nothing.
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81. See. I didn’t know that.
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KLASKO, the squash bugs also might be called flat bugs and look to me like micro-micro-micro turtles about half an inch-plus/minus, grayish brown. Here’s the best photo I’ve found similar to what we had here:
http://www.dpughphoto.com/true_bugs.htm#squashbugs
Scroll down to “Flat Bugs (familiy Aradidae, superfamily Aradoidea, infraorder Pentatomomorpha) It should be the 11th vertically, by itself, from NC.
My family gets them every year and this summer we were infested with them possibly due to my (failed) attempt to grow pumpkins
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Peter L,
Please don’t misumderstand my comment. I like that you added the ‘pillow fight’ game; I just haven’t done a good job of picking the winner!
Re: why we pick certain teams to win – I picked Navy this week because I liked how they played against Ohio State. Forget that the game was seven weeks ago.
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Nana – Aha! Stink bugs! Yeah, we got a few of them this year, but We didn’t have many. Last year, my friend in PA had an infestation on her farm. They were everywhere.
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I hear you, Scott re: the pillow fight. Now that most of the usuals have posted (where is Tychicus this week?), I can influence the guess on it: Western Kentucky has the longest losing streak in NCAA Div 1 at 15 games.
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Samuel (57), thanks.
Crown’s a good group. Our generation has had it fairly easy in terms of the economy. But these have been tough times for a lot of people and I think many Christians are re-examining their financial decisions, which is a good thing. From the number of financial help ads I’m hearing these days on Christian radio stations, you can be sure there are many within the church who are struggling.
BTW & on that note, there’s also a new study Bible out called the Stewardship Study Bible which I recently got from Amazon. Unfortunately, it’s in the NIV version, which is not my favorite translation, but it appealed to me on several levels, including its notes and articles on caring for God’s creation, financial responsibility, generosity, giving, saving, etc.
Ah, a rare day off for me today — a friend and I are heading out to “the country,” an apple-picking community in the local mountains that’s about 2 hours east of L.A. And it looks like the high temp out there today is only 53 degrees. Perfect.
Cheryl, still praying for you and your family, especially your brother, after the loss of your sister-in-law yesterday. Update us when you can.
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Someone stole my bike. I just went outside, thought it looked like a good day for a ride and it was gone. I drove around the neighborhood hoping some kid took it and was stupid enough to leave it in the yard, but no luck. It was a piece of junk and wouldn’t gear down, but it was mine.
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Nebraska
Auburn
Oregon
Penn St.
Navy
N. Texas
Tenn 23, SC 13
#3 Texas over #14 Okl. St. – ‘Horns on the way to the natl. title!
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Thomas1 #22
totally unlike DEMs who have never run their car into a body of water with their girlfriend inside (sort of like Kennedy)
and totally unlike other Reps who do the same as DEMs, but won’t leave office (we won’t mention names like Clinton)
can’t get much bigger than that
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klasko 10.30.09 AT 12:00 PM
Nana – Aha! Stink bugs! Yeah, we got a few of them this year, but We didn’t have many. Last year, my friend in PA had an infestation on her farm. They were everywhere.
-
Ask your friend in they know of Knoebels Amusement Resort
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KBells,
Sorry to hear about your bike. I had a truck stolen almost fifteen years ago and it still makes me mad to think of it (I’m trying to let go, honest!).
Having something stolen from you gives you a very helpless feeling, which then leads to other unhealthy feelings (anger, depression, etc.)
Here’s hoping you can let it go and find another bike.
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Thomas1 #22
Why do you fail to mention all the other Dems who have had affairs?
Why is it ok for a Dem to have an affair and not a Rep.?
I don’t think either should.
Didn’t Clinton say he is a Christian?
Wasn’t Kennedy a Catholic?
And so on and so forth.
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Sorry KBells! That really stinks.
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Tychicus 10.30.09 AT 12:08 PM
Nebraska
Auburn
Oregon
Penn St.
Navy
N. Texas
Tenn 23, SC 13
#3 Texas over #14 Okl. St. – ‘Horns on the way to the natl. title!
-
I am a PennSt. Fan, but to me Texas should be number one due to the teams they play.
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Adios wrote; “Halloween is always on the 31st of October no matter what day it falls on.”
Yes. And so is Reformation Day! Happy day, all!!!
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DRILL #14
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DonnaJ,
Going to Oak Glen? Should be gorgeous up there today.
And y’all commenting on Thomas1 @ 22,
I think his point was more about South Carolina than Dems or Pubs. It was just a Pub in the latest shenannigans.
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USC (So. Cal) over Oregon. It will be tough. For years, USC has rarely ever lost to any team outside the Pac 10. Oregon is in the Pac Ten and is tough this year.
I’ll also pick Nebraska (because my awesome grandmother loved the Cornhuskers).
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Well, Thomas, it is a scary occurrence but it is Halloween, after all!
A second mortgage will not work when you can’t pay the first one. No refinance either. Not gonna happen.
EYG, I can think of no reason why the bank would not accept a deed in lieu of foreclosure. It costs them about $40K to foreclose on you, so this is WAY cheaper for them. I would discuss the short sale business with them, too — first. Kim’s advice, however, that you discuss this with a lawyer and/or CPA is good advice because you can give them all your information and all the facts which can’t be done here.
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Pastor Roy @#95:
You are invited to join our little college football guessing contest. You get a digital s’more if you win. (Even if you are a Texas fan. I cannot get over what they did to my Mizzou Tigers last week!)
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News2Me – please read the comment and look for the word “Democrat”. See it there? See what it refers back to?
No party has a monopoly on this sort of thing. I just think it’s hilarious that so many people (on both sides) who are elected based on their so-called “Christian family values” wind up getting caught tooting coke or driving 90 mph out of a cemetery with a stripper on their lap at lunchtime.
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Kbells,
that’s terrible.
I had a bike stolen from off an apartment balcony a long time ago. It’s so unfair.
I’m so sorry.
Pauline,
yes. They actually do make you miss payments before they’ll work with you.
I understand how you all must have been feeling, believe me.
We don’t like to have to do this. When and If the time comes when it’s time to buy again, I will definitely think very conservatively!
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Quote EYG (#50):
“I wonder if God sometimes allows us to be where we will be misunderstood etc…”
Quote EYG (#65):
“ And,
I know we all mean well. I’m in one of those positions that just looks bad. It’s humbling. But at the same time, we are learning that we can’t always control what we look like. I’m also noticing that Jesus wasn’t that interested in how he was percieved, either. Were dying to it, and that’s probably pretty important to do.”
EYG, I have no financial advice, but I think your two statements above are right on and TRUTH. I think there are times in this walk of faith when others will not understand (even our brethren) our situations. Or even worse, they will think they understand and make a judgment. I tend to think that if we are on this journey with Christ, then, eventually, we will all find ourselves at this place of “not looking so good”. The servant is not better than his Master and our Master was misunderstood. I’m rooting for you and I know He will honor you as you seek to honor Him.
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NJLawyer, what I meant is, what about the second mortgage we already have on that place? Our loan was divided into two mortgages. What happens then in a deed in lieu of forclosure?
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Peter L 10.30.09 AT 12:37 PM
Pastor Roy @#95:
You are invited to join our little college football guessing contest. You get a digital s’more if you win. (Even if you are a Texas fan. I cannot get over what they did to my Mizzou Tigers last week!)
–
I did not know anything about it . I was born and raised a Penn St Fan
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Thomas1 #103
Sorry Thomas my bad.
It just seems like we have to continually say that Reps aren’t the only ones gone bad. I’ll be the last one to defend a bad Rep.
It would be nice if they would ALL just do the job they were sent to Washington for. They seem to have WAY TO MUCH TIME on their hands.
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What a mess!
HopeSprings,
you are right, and you know when you look bad… Only God has the big picture.
It allsounds so horrible, but at the time, it really did make sense. The school of hard knocks is a pretty good school.
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Yep, so is the school of the cross.
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You are aptly named!
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Any lady bugs that bite should be squashed. They are nasty and not your average lady bug.
EYG: We managed to hold onto our house, but were late on several payments during my husband’s layoffs. We were fortunate to not have any bills beyond house and one car or we would have lost the house also. We learned that many things are beyond our ability to fix and we must trust the Lord and just do our best. Others may judge, but he knows our hearts.
Did you try Dave Ramsey’s website?
Sorry, KBells. That stinks!
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Thank you! We all need hope, don’t we? And to be reminded of the hope we have.
I know I sure do.
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My sister and I once moved from one apartment to another. When we went to empty our little storage locker, her bike was missing. Since the lock hadn’t been cut, it was a little mysterious. I think the landlord had access, as I recall; and we were breaking our lease (after they had broken it themselves, basically–there was a sewer odor they never managed to get rid of, and the unit ended up condemned after we moved out). Anyway, she figured the landlord or manager stole it as a tiny way to get even, and she shrugged it off.
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Now, as far as lady bugs. I noticed one on my washing machine and thought I would put him/her/it outside after I got the load started. Then I couldn’t find it. Alas, it was swimming in the fabric softener dispenser. I rinsed it off and put it out in the azaleas. Don’t know if it survived.
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Adios, Yep, Oak Glen. Haven’t been there in about 10 years now, but it’s always been a favorite fall day trip. Last time I was there was with an inner city ministry I was involved with at my former Quaker church, we took several of the middle-school aged girls up there for the day with box lunches. It’s a great (and easy) getaway for us L.A.ers.
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EYG, I probably know a little more about you from emailing in the past when I was going through career moves. I do not think you are “at fault” at all. Things happen. What made financial sense 5 or 10 years ago just isn’t what is in 2009. You and your husband made the best decision you could make with the information you were given. Just as I did. I don’t think anyone here is judging you or looking down on you for being in the situation you are in. Only one person here was not supportive of me when I was going through my difficulties and accused me of whining or some such or other. I am still here and he has been banned. Not LLama for those of you keeping a banned score. Llama actually talked to me on the phone and gave me the solution I
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I later used to pay off almost all of my debt. Today I owe my usual bills (utlities, grocercies, etc) but other than that I owe 15k on my Xterra and 12k on my student loan. I have spoken with a financial planner who has advised me to do some other things first before I worry about paying them off. I also like to tell the baby girl that her first car will be a slightly used 2006 Red Xterra.
EYG we are all here for you and will continue to be supportive and pray for you. In the past two years I don’t know where I would be without the prayers and support I have received here. Chas and Random have taken on the Angel/Devil Parent role for me.
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Re my sister-in-law: Thank you all for praying for us, particularly for my brother, during this time. Thank you, Donna, for posting news of her death. I haven’t talked with my brother yet today, so I don’t know how they’re all doing today, but yesterday it was mostly relief that she was done with her suffering, and the busyness of making plans.
He did tell me one thing bittersweet. They’ve lived in their house nearly 30 years, and my sis-in-law took regular walks around the neighborhood. In her forties, she started taking bike rides, and eventually she and a neighbor, or she and my brother, would take lengthy rides (as much as 60-70 miles). As the cancer progressed, the bike rides, walks, and neighborhood walks became daily wheelchair walks. I went with them on one or two of those a day every time I visited them this summer.
After my sis-in-law died, my brother prayed and his pastor prayed, and before he even called family, he and the kids went out for a walk . . . with an empty wheelchair. My sister bawled when I told her, and said that sure had to have made the neighbors cry!
They were most worried that she’d suffocate to death, because her breathing was the difficult thing. But she never woke up yeserday morning, was in a coma all day, and her breathing simply got shallower and shallower, and then she was with Jesus. Her funeral is Sunday, her 52nd birthday. Most likely I’ll go over tomorrow and stay a couple days into next week.
Again, thank you all for your prayers. She was first diagnosed four years ago, and after minor surgery, when the cancer returned she decided to “treat” it naturally, and refused further surgery. A year and a half ago she was told that she had less than six months to live; seven months ago my brother came off the road to be with her full-time, and yesterday she graduated.
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Boy, isn’t that a combination and wouldn’t I love to put the two of them in the same room! NJLawyer told me not to be embarrassed if I did have to file bankruptcy, that is what it was there for. Cheryl, Mumsee, Donna, Victoria, and surely several dozen that I have missed have encouraged me and kept me taking the next step.
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Pauline,
Doesn’t Crown also advocate that, ethically, you still owe the mortgage company the difference between the balance you left them with and what they sold the house for and should endevor to pay that back eventually? I know that Larry Burkett did.
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funny t-shirt
LIFE IS NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST.
OH WAIT, IT IS.
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Oh Cheryl, kind of like the riderless horse. What a thing to do. It made me cry and I didn’t even know her. I am sure the neighbors have all responded. This is the south afterall. I am so glad they are having the funeral on her birthday. It can truly be a celebration of her life. We all know I am the resident “foodie” so here is a good funeral food recipe: 1 block cheddar cheese grated, one sleeve Ritz crackers crushed and 1 big can of crushed pineapple drained. Mix it all together and bake it. Sweet, salty, and cheesy—three of the major southern food groups. That is what I would bring to you if I could and we would eat it and talk about your sister in law. I still haven’t forgotten that you google mapped where my father’s funeral was to se
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try to attend. Definately one of those times in life when it was the thought that counted. I will always appreciate that effort from you. I really do wish I could do something for you and your family. Take care and we are all praying.
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Thank you, Kim. This really is a lovely community.
I remember that time in your life. It’s hard to imagine what lies on the other side of this. What a great reminder!
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You might find this interesting if you haven’t seen it:
Toomey ad ridicules Specter
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So, sorry, Cheryl.
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Cheryl, I missed Donna’s post about your sis-in-law. May God give you all great comfort.
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#120
We didn’t. Houses and their “worth” is very subjective. The fact is that they sold the house and they are done with it (long time ago now). I feel no ethical compunction to pay them the difference. The market was low. In our case, they were big enough to hold on to the house had they wanted to, and it would have doubled in price in the next few years (although, who knows what it would be worth now?)
If the house was dumped back on an individual or family, and the difference in what they got for it and what we owed had actually hurt them, then I would feel obligated to do something.
As it is, no, I really and truly don’t.
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Matt: I imagine that ad would be quite effective. It’s definitely time for Specter to move on.
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In regard to Christ on other planets, somebody suggested I read Lewis’ science fiction. I’ve read several books by Lewis, both fiction and non-fiction. I have a stack of books waiting for me to read. I am not feeling inclined at the moment to read more Lewis.
On the other hand, there is always the choice of reading less wmb and more Lewis. Decisions, decisions.
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#24
Years ago, EYG, when the market took a downturn in housing right as my husband lost his job and then had to move across country for another, we finally decided to let the bank have back our house. We’d tried to rent it out (and did for awhile, but at a significant shortfall from the mortgage), and we’d tried for over two years to sell it.
We were living in a little apartment (across country) and simply weren’t making it. We let the bank have it back, and they sold it for less than we owed. And, we were done.
We kept all our other credit pristine. We ended up buying a new house about 4 years later. We bought a house that had everything we NEEDED and just a bit of what we WANTED. Much, much smaller than our previous house. We qualified for this home without my income, so that we wouldn’t depend on it.
It was a good decision on our part. I suppose that if we could have lived for another two years, we might have sold the house (when the market bounced back) for twice what we’d bought it for, but we couldn’t and didn’t.
The bank didn’t either. They honestly didn’t lose all that much, because they’d been getting huge payments that were mostly interest. If you take the interest that you’ve paid over the years into account, you probably won’t be shorting the bank anything of their actual money.
It happens. We were good people who tried to do our best. We did bit off more than we could chew with that house, and we learned our lesson.
I disagree that you would owe anything for the shortfall of the house. I don’t even think that the bank would know what to do with such payments if you made them. It isn’t how the system works.
I understand. I’ve been there. You have my support.
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EYG,
Halloween is ALWAYS on October 31st. This means that it is on a Saturday and on a Sunday every 7 years or so.
Our credit honestly didn’t take that big of a hit, as the fact that we were allowed to buy another (brand new) house three years later shows (I’m pretty sure it was three years now, not 4). And, the market at the time wasn’t nearly as bad as it is now.
So, while I worried a bit about that at the time, it really didn’t pan out. (It took us about 3 years to earn any sort of down payment for a new house, since we lost ALL of our equity in the other house.)
If you have good credit otherwise, and it is obvious it was just a fluke and an error, we found mortgage lenders to be very understanding.
Maybe that was just our luck, or God’s hand, or who knows? But, we suffered no long term problems from giving the house back to the bank. (I’m pretty sure that’s what we did. We didn’t go through a long foreclosure process.)
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Trs #128
Well, the phone company is big enough not to miss my one measly payment, the gas and electric company is certainly big enough to not miss my monthly contribution, and Honda finance is probably more solvent than both of them put together, so definitely could do without $500 this month, BUT, these were all financial obligations that I agreed to and I owe them their due. Larry Burkett always said that even if you were legally released from debt, you weren’t morally released until you paid it in full.
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EYG, don’t let the naysayers get you down. How many times have we sinned and been forgiven? Sometimes bad things happen to good people and we have to move on and learn from them. One thing I would caution you about it that sometimes Uncle Sam sees the difference in what you owed and what you paid as taxable income. That is why I suggested you see a CPA. Most mortgage companies are forgiving the debt and will not pursue the difference. After all those taxes you paid for years and will pay for year is going to bail them out for encouraging people to take on debt that 25 or 30 years ago would have never been allowed. How is it that someone like me, working a commission only job, and single can qualify for a $300K mortgage? Bad decisions on the banks part. The
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Well, in this case, I disagree with Larry Burkett, although I generally find him pretty good.
He’s just human, after all.
It is the way it works. If the bank agrees to take back your house and sell it on a shortfall, then they have granted you “grace.” There is no reason to put your family in additional hock and make them suffer over something the bank has graced away and doesn’t ask for or want.
Reminds me of trying to continue to “pay” God for His great grace.
If they didn’t want to do it, they didn’t have to. They knew that accepting back the house meant selling it at a shortfall. They could have foreclosed. They could have sued us. They could have done a lot of things. Instead, they showed grace. We were grateful.
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The real estate market of the last 10 or so years was like the wild west and the Gold Rush. There was a whole lot of speculation going on. Hold your head up and do the best you can. You will learn from this. Now I truly understand the meaning of if I don’t have the money in the bank I can’t do X, Y, or Z. No mon, no fun.
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MATT Y. #125
Very appropriate music for that ad.
Some Republicans are chameleons.
These days it seems that more and more Reps. are RINOs.
Does that mean that the Rep. Party is not what it seems?
Maybe it’s time for a PARTY change when the Rep. Party is just more of the same.
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#134
Exactly.
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Random Name 10.30.09 AT 1:43 PM
In regard to Christ on other planets, somebody suggested I read Lewis’ science fiction. I’ve read several books by Lewis, both fiction and non-fiction. I have a stack of books waiting for me to read. I am not feeling inclined at the moment to read more Lewis.
On the other hand, there is always the choice of reading less wmb and more Lewis. Decisions, decisions.
-
read Lewis please
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I do hope Specter loses.
It would send a message.
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Pastor Roy #139
Are you a mind reader?
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And, there’s a big difference between dinging up a lot of debt in order to live high on the hog (and then going bankrupt in order to keep all the stuff you got and cheat the people you owe), and genuinely needing grace for something you couldn’t control.
The bank won’t offer it if they can’t deal with it. Simple as that.
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TRS,
That’s encouraging, and sounds like our stuation. I hope it works out. The bank has gotten a tremendous amount of interest. Really tremendous. I believe the market was really inflated when we bought the house at more than twice what the old owners paid. I don’t think we could have sold it for more than we paid, it would have created such a hardship on the new family.
I just don’t know what will happen to the second mortgage if we do that. It has been great to hear from everybody and know you’re praying. I wish it would just sell fast so this could all be over.
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My husband handled the taxes that year. I can ask him what happened with the shortfall. I remember being worried about being taxed on it as income, but I don’t remember what happened.
I do remember going to a tax lawyer who didn’t know what to do, and who told us wrong. My husband researched it, and figured out how to do it right. (He’s a smart guy.)
The tax lawyer still charged us a bundle for his “services”, and he was WRONG. sigh. But, it all got worked out. It was — gee — 14 years ago plus now?
Doesn’t mean Kim’s advice is wrong, btw, just get a tax lawyer who actually knows what he’s doing!
(Interesting fact, the idiot went on to get elected into state government. And, he wasn’t very bright. My husband ended up figuring out what to do with Internet research and by calling the IRS. This guy should NEVER have gone into government. But, isn’t that true of a lot of politicians?)
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EYG, I think TRS is wise in telling you not to worry about the future right now. Solve one problem at a time and then the future will take care of itself. You must realize that you are not the only person in this situation at this time! In the long run, banks will always want to make money, when things improve for the rest of the world they will for you, too, and the banks will want to lend you money in the future.
For now: I did not understand what you meant by the second mortgage. I would still contact the primary lender and discuss a short sale. They are in first lien position, and they often deal with the second lienholder and work something out. They essentially “forgive” a portion of the debt and write it off. I would also advise that you consult an attorney. In fact, it might be better to do that and let the attorney deal with the bank(s). I realize this incurs another bill for you, but you don’t want the banks suing you and getting some big judgment. Sometimes you have to spend a buck to get yourself out of trouble and that is money well spent, believe it or not. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Just do it. Waiting only makes it worse, and not waiting may keep you out of bankruptcy.
Whatever you do, just do it. The law is there to protect you. Consult an attorney and find out if bankruptcy might be better for your overall situation. But don’t wait!!!
And TRS is also right — don’t feel bad about this. Things happen sometimes through no fault of the people involved.
Then it’s over, and you can move on. It is what it is.
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TRS: “Interesting fact, the idiot went on to get elected into state government.”
Well, there you have it!
EYG, it is important to get a lawyer who deals in short sales. Don’t hire a litigator to do a short sale. Hire a real estate lawyer. If you were in NJ, I’d give you the name of someone great, but you’re not.
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I asked my husband. We did a “deed in lieu of foreclosure.” In addition, we DID have to declare the difference as income, but — my husband doesn’t remember now — we were also able to declare an expense/loss due to renting the house and losing income. (It was strange enough that we had to pass a phone audit from the state, but — when we explained it — they accepted it as legit.)
So, if you do a “deed in lieu of foreclosure” you will have to consider it as income. You may have enough other debt that you won’t have to pay taxes on it, or you may have to pay taxes on it. (Even so, it is better than going further into debt.)
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EYG, my stepbrother is a real estate attorney in Key West. He and I have had several conversations about this where he has been advising me to protect myself as a realtor. I am not an accountant or an attorney so my advice is to check with them and not rely on me. What I can tell you from personal experience of settling and paying off my debt is that when I got my taxes done the difference was going ot be taxable income. I had to go back and show losses to offset the gains. I am sure that CPA’s are becoming more and more familiar with these situations.
I am off to an appointment. Cannot play anymore now.
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Cheryl,
“The empty chair” – that brings tears to my eyes, but we know that in heaven there is another chair which is filled with one of HIS Saints.
LORD please comfort our sister Cheryl, her brother and children. Thank you for the life of the woman who made her husband so happy. In Jesus name AMEN
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Victoria – I know about the empty chair. Our Worship leader moved his mother in fron IN. About 8 months later is died of a heart attack. So My dear friend wife is not alone and taken care of his mother.
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#139 and #141
Why?
What part of “I have read several books by Lewis and don’t feel inclined at the moment to read more” is not comprehensible?
I appreciate the “please,” but convincing and persuasive reasons, perhaps limited to one comment box in length, would be helpful.
Speaking of reading minds, I could try to infer what you are trying to tell me, but I prefer not to.
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Cheryl, praying and thinking of you and your brother and family.
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RANDOM
Why don’t you read the “fiction” book all atheists love to hate.
The Bible has stories one never hears in Sunday School class.
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CHeryl, I echo Victoria’s post at 149. Your own post brought me to tears.
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#153
I have read the Bible.
1) I believe it is a combination of a book of myths and the best thinking about morality available at the time (thousands of years ago). I don’t believe it is the “Word of God.”
2) Why does Christianity continue to produce so many millions of additional commentaries and explanations and apologetics?
3) How did Paul become an official spokesperson for God and Jesus besides choosing himself?
And so on.
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And, yes, NJL is right. I’m just trying to tell you not to worry about it too much now. Do what you can. Put it all before God. Let Him sort it out.
We learned a lot from what happened to us. In our case, we’d purchased too big of a house that depended on both of us having big incomes to keep it up. We’d been a bit too greedy. (Not saying this is you at all. This was US.)
We learned that we didn’t need so much. When God allowed us to buy again (in a very short time, really) I think it was because we’d learned our lesson.
Our home has everything we need, and God graciously provided a number of things we simply wanted but didn’t need. But, it could probably fit in half of our previous house, and the yard certainly could.
But, we’re happy. Our credit took a hit, but it was permanently damaged. We have a nice home. We have good credit. We survived the embarrassment and the process.
You can too.
Hugs.
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Whoops!
Our credit took a hit, but it was NOT permanently damaged.
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Random Name 10.30.09 AT 3:22 PM
#153
I have read the Bible.
1) I believe it is a combination of a book of myths and the best thinking about morality available at the time (thousands of years ago). I don’t believe it is the “Word of God.”
2) Why does Christianity continue to produce so many millions of additional commentaries and explanations and apologetics?
3) How did Paul become an official spokesperson for God and Jesus besides choosing himself?
And so on.
—
why do you come to a Chritain board to post?
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Paul became an official spokesperson, because the early church accepted him as such.
It would have taken a lot of accepting too, because he had originally been persecuting them heavily.
So, to have them accept him as an apostle was a huge deal.
IMO, they did so because God chose him and accepted him.
Regardless, to discount him is silly. The fact that he was accepted by the early church (and his writings accepted as Scripture) says a lot. He didn’t get accepted in a vacuum. Those in the know at the time did it.
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TRS, this is good testimony — it is hard now and it seems to be insurmountable and beyond embarrassing, but if things are dealt with — as you did — the future is already on the mend. God is with you all the way.
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Cheryl, you and yours have been and are still in my prayers.
Re: #22: A bit from the link Thomas1 provided, changed to make the following point:
— A (Sen. Kennedy, Chris Dodd, Congressman Barney Frank) said he was on his lunch break when an officer found him with a stripper and sex toys in his sport utility vehicle Wednesday.—
That headline would create no interest. It’s only Republicans or other respectable people who are caught and would be embarrassed that create headlines. Why is that? We expect the likes of Charlie Rangle to be a crook. And his constituents will reelect him forever. It doesn’t matter that Rev. Jesse Jackson is having to pay support of a child. That is expected of people like him.
I have always been interested in the concept of a hypocrite. It is only those who are accountable to high standards who are capable of hypocrisy, and those with no standards are the first to define it.
This assistant attorney was fired. Ted Kennedy was a senator till he died. Rangle, Frank and Dodd hold important positions. Where there are standards, there will always be hypocrisy, and always someone with no standards to point it out.
I understand that it is a danger. As a SS teacher I have taught many lessons on the subject. But I have noticed that most of the noise comes from people who want to bring down someone else.
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why do you come to a Chritain board to post?
The reasons are complex.
For one thing, most humans are likely to wonder Why am I here? Is there any purpose to life? Why do I die? and so on.
Such questions are discussed quite a bit here.
Also, I find talking with people who are quite a bit different than I am, gives me different perspectives and makes things clearer than before. [Unfortunately, from your point of view, it doesn't bring me closer to your point of view most of the time.]
Also, I find myself in opposition to you on many issues; homosexuality, for example. I am fortunate that we live in a society where disagreements usually proceed by arguments, laws, ballot measures, and posting blog comments rather than with guns, bombs, knives, fists, etc. [Most of the time.]
Also, I forget who said it, but there’s a quote that goes something like keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.
However, to be fair, there are people here I’ve grown fond of and learned things from: KarenO is excellent. Cameron, well, she no longer drops by. Pauline. A couple of friends who no longer post here, but come by my blog.
In real life, I volunteer for a church but do not attend. Although they are not “liberal” they are not as “conservative” and cantankerous as the people here, so I enjoy their company but do not “dispute” with them as I do with you. Perhaps you serve as a safety valve for me in that regard.
I could go on with more of an answer, but I will be merciful.
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By LARRY MARGASAK, Associated Press Writer Larry Margasak,
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – Internal investigations into the conduct of over two dozen House members were exposed in an extraordinary, Internet-era breach involving the secretive process by which Congress polices lawmaker ethics.
Revelations of the mostly preliminary inquiries by the House Committee on Standards of Official Conduct — also known as the Ethics committee — and a panel that refers cases to it shook the chamber as lawmakers were immersed in a series of scheduled votes Thursday.
The panel announced that it was investigating two California Democrats — Reps. Maxine Waters and Laura Richardson ……
Does anyone think the people in Maxine Waters’ district care?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congress_leaked_ethics_report
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Except as one person said to me “Go away,” I wonder if you are implying that.
I will point out I have offered two simple methods by which you can have me go away. Quite peaceful. You have not taken me up on it.
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Random Name 10.30.09 AT 3:55 PM
Except as one person said to me “Go away,” I wonder if you are implying that.
I will point out I have offered two simple methods by which you can have me go away. Quite peaceful. You have not taken me up on it.
–
not at all
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I find your posts a little depressing sometimes, Random. (It is hard to read a lot of nihilism. It’s simply a very depressing point of view.) But, I still enjoy your presence here in this community and have never wished you gone.
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Pastor Roy, generally the SEC teams play tough outside opponents. But there is a law/regulation/decree or something in SC that requires that USC and Clemson play some in-state schools. Hence, USC plays SC State, The Citadel, Woffard, etc. and Clemson plays Coastal Carolina. They are also required to play each other. South Carolina opened against NC State. They would prefer to play teams that warrant TV coverage, even if they were tough.
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Mommy,
Like TRS, I am of the opinion that since the mortgage company chose to do the debt mitigation program with us, that we are released ethically as well as legally from the debt.
I would feel differently about debts that were cancelled due to bankruptcy. If a court ordered that the creditor had to settle for only a portion of what I owed, I would still feel ethically obliged to repay it when I became able to, because the creditor would not have been able to choose the lower amount to be paid as our mortgage company did.
Speaking of feeling ethically obligated to repay something – here’s one I’ve felt some struggles over. When I was in high school, I attended an independent fundamentalist church, and planned to become a missionary. When I went to Bible school, I applied for and received a $200 scholarship from the church, which was a loan if I did not go into full-time Christian work, but if I became a missionary it was a grant with no repayment expected.
For a variety of reasons I did not become a missionary – one being that when I applied for a short-term missionary program, the pastor from my church, who had started there since I went off to college, refused to write a letter of recommendation, saying he did not know me well enough (even though I made a point of making an appointment to talk with him while I was home on break so he would have a chance to get to know me). I did not think it right to decide that a different church was my home church, just so I could find a pastor willing to write the letter. I concluded that God did not want me on the mission field, at least not at that time.
Instead I became a teacher in a Christian school. At that church I had attended, being a teacher in a Christian school was considered full-time Christian service. So I considered that I had fulfilled the condition for the money to be a grant rather than a loan.
Years later, when we were getting ready to move to Michigan and boxing up our stuff, I came across a project I had done in college, telling all about my home church and its ministries. I reread the brochure on the educational assistance fund, and discovered that it didn’t say “full-time Christian service,” it said “pastor or missionary.” I was now a pastor’s wife, but I was not a pastor, and I had not become a missionary. So that meant I was still obligated to pay back the $200. As I had been putting my husband through seminary, and I was about to quit my job to move with him to another state, and we still had to pay mortgage on the house in NJ, I decided that paying back the $200 would have to wait until more immediate obligations were taken care of.
But we continued to struggle financially. My husband and I disagreed on what was worth spending money on and how much we should use credit. I’m the frugal one, but in the end I would go along with what he thought best. (I’m not good at confrontations.)
I still figured I’d pay back the $200 someday, but I figured it was a lower priority than current bills because it’s not like anyone there probably remembers me or is looking for the money. Then a few years ago I found the church on the internet. They’ve changed a bit. They changed their name – now it’s officially a Baptist church instead of just “baptistic.” They not only think KJV is the best translation, now it’s the only English translation that is acceptable, and they quote Bible verses to support their belief that God fulfilled His promise to “preserve His Word” in the KJV. I don’t agree with that position, but I’ve encountered churches like that before.
Then I started reading some materials they had regarding the seminary that they run (non-accredited, as submitting to the authority of any accreditation board would be submitting God’s Word to judgment by humans – at least that’s their position). They also teach that the earth is the center of the universe, because the Bible says so. The sun goes around the earth, along with all the stars and everything else. As for what scientists say on the matter, they have pretty much the same answers as for evolution, that they are not going to let the word of human scientists take precedence over the Word of God.
They no longer want to be considered fundamentalist either – because fundamentalism as a movement is too liberal, and conceded too much to worldly views (such as accepting heliocentrism).
So I have mixed feelings about writing a check for $200 to them. On the one hand, I did agree to the terms of the loan/grant when I accepted the money. But they are not really the same church as I attended back then. And I’m not at all keen on putting money into the hands of people teaching these things as Gospel Truth.
Any opinions?
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Chas 10.30.09 AT 4:05 PM
Pastor Roy, generally the SEC teams play tough outside opponents. But there is a law/regulation/decree or something in SC that requires that USC and Clemson play some in-state schools. Hence, USC plays SC State, The Citadel, Woffard, etc. and Clemson plays Coastal Carolina. They are also required to play each other. South Carolina opened against NC State. They would prefer to play teams that warrant TV coverage, even if they were tough.
—
All but Florida,
I wish Penn State would put ND, Pitt, and Alabama back on their schedule, I miss those games.
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Chas – went to college in cleveland, TN. I was so tired of watching SEC Games
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Victoria – they killed the babies frist, now they are going after the elderly
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Pastor Roy,
They can only kill the body, they cannot kill the soul. I hope this health bill falls flat on the floor of the Senate.
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Pastor Roy, When this abortion thing started, I said that these same people who started killing their babies will find that those who survive will think it’s ok to kill their parents.
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Chas 10.30.09 AT 4:41 PM
Pastor Roy, When this abortion thing started, I said that these same people who started killing their babies will find that those who survive will think it’s ok to kill their parents.
–
I agree, these people see Babies as a burden so they promote killing of them and they see elderly
as a burden, now they are going to promote the killing of them. The next’s on their list Christian.
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Why? we are a burden to them.
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Thomas Sowell asked a good question recently:
“Just one year ago, would you have believed that an unelected government official, not even a Cabinet member confirmed by the Senate but simply one of the many “czars” appointed by the President, could arbitrarily cut the pay of executives in private businesses by 50 percent or 90 percent?”
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Macrutabaga, from yesterday’s WV: Why is the death penalty wrong for homosexuality? Why should we not obey OT law on the subject? I think I had a similar discussion with Scott, Xion, and TRS once, on a thread called “Associating Islam with Violence” on Sep. 11th.
In short: The OT law is the context for interpretation of the New Testament. It was fulfilled by Jesus. It is completely impossible to uphold to God’s satisfaction. (See the Sermon on the Mount.) We are saved through grace, not works.
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Pauline,
I actually think you did fulfill the terms of the original agreement, better than the church did. (It seems that the new pastor could have contacted the old pastor and given you the recommendation.)
However, if you are feeling (still) after this long a time that there is a problem, then it is probably due to the Holy Spirit’s nudging.
However, the church you got the grant from really does not exist any longer.
So, if you’re feeling prompted, I would:
1) make payments as donations to another church or para-church ministry that supports what you do believe in in honor of your former church. (Hey, $5 a month would get that paid off sooner or later.)
OR
2) Save it up and then give it on to someone else as a grant toward becoming a preacher or missionary.
OR
3) Save it up or give it in payments directly to missions.
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Pastor Roy,
While the SEC does have a tough (the toughest?) in-conference schedule, they seldom play road non-conference road games on the road. Florida is the worst offender here. They *never* play non-conference road games against schools outside of their state.
At least the Big 10, Pac 10, Big 12, etc. will hit the road in September and play tough non-conference schools on the road, often doing ‘home and home’ series (E.g. Ohio State-Texas). The SEC schools don’t measure up to other conferences in this regard.
I miss those Penn State rivalries too.
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#168
You explained it in another way that I think clarifies it better.
If it were something like bankruptcy, which is completely outside of the hands of the companies getting the smaller payments, that is one thing. But, when the company itself chooses to give grace, it is good to be thankful and accept it!
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Travis Birkenstock – Big 12 have a tougher in-conference schedule this year.
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SteveG, yesterday’s WV #76: My list is not either specious. Bestiality and necrophilia are victimless. I’ve heard that people who practice bestiality claim to treat the animals with care and love. I see no reason to not believe them. And corpses are … dead. If you’re not Christian, (which I know you are, but we have plenty on this site who aren’t), why do you care?
As for pedophilia: I’ve heard psychological reports that say that it does not negatively impact the children, as long as they are shown love, and not abuse. NAMBLA actually exists, you know. They certainly don’t think they’re harming anyone. I see no reason to not believe them.
“Incest is taboo because for reproduction, the gene pool needs to be more diverse.” — Um… you do realize you just used the “reproduction” argument that is apparently so horrible when used against homosexuality?
About “taking my logic the other way,” you seem to have missed my point. I was arguing on mainly moral grounds, not US law. I’m saying that I have no arguments against any of these outside Christianity. With Christianity, God has not said that interracial marriage is wrong.
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I dunno Travis. Bama played VT on neutral ground. MSU played GT there and home. LSU played WU at WU (who beat USC), Tenn has gone to UCLA recently. Florida may be the exception rather than the rule, but so long as they continue to dominate teams like OSU in the BCS I dont think you can complain too much.
MSU probably has one of the toughest schedules in the nation. If not THE. Ole Miss, Florida, LSU, Bama, GT, Houston have been or still are top 15 teams. When you do play so many in your own conference, you gotta have a sub par team or two out of conference.
I think we mostly over preceive out of our biases.
Nearly every team plays a least a couple par or better non conference teams, and a plays crappy team or two.
I think there’s also alot more balance in football now adays since the scholarship regs changed. Teams like BYU, Utah, Boise State etc can win against hte bigger conferences, and even lesser schools in bigger conferences (like Vandy) can occasionally put up some good wins.
A new idea. Make an elite conference bracket. Top teams from every conference. Florida, USC, Bama, etc. Top 4 stay (mini playoff?), rest are replaced by a conference winner the next year. It would be like 6 bowl games a week at least.
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Plus, I’m interested in how anyone who isn’t religious is able to make distinctions between sexual behaviors.
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Thorn – Florida may be the exception rather than the rule, but so long as they continue to dominate teams like OSU in the BCS I dont think you can complain too much.
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it is ohio state, as FL is not the best team this years. But sine the BCS is control by SEC, good luck in getting FL off the top spot.
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Hi. I’m back. Am about to go for 90 minute drive with Hubby, I will read him our discussion. I appreciate all the testimonies, prayers, advice, compassion and input. Thank you.
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The day the Christians take Random up on his “offers,” is the same day he says “see, I told you the Christians are mean,” — cruel, or whatever word floats his boat. What a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is his safe bet, just like the “artist” who urinates on a picture of Christ knows he won’t get his head chopped off.
With respect to bankruptcy: the purpose of the bankruptcy law is to provide a fresh start for people who sometimes really mess up and sometimes for people who, through no real fault of their own, find themselves in financial difficulty. I think of it as our society as a whole granting “grace” to a fellow member. Do some people abuse it? Yes, but it also helps a lot of people down on their luck and there are consequences. It’s not an easy thing to go through.
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NJLawyer – what was his offers?
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Looks like Pittsburg (college footbal) has the toughest schedule for their last four games (3 of 4 opponents are ranked in the top 25).
Check me on this, but when the season is over, USC will have played against the most teams ranked in the top 25 (five in all). Their one loss so far was against an unranked team.
Florida’s schedule was not so tough, it seems, but they will likely be tested in the championship game.
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59 # TRS 10.30.09 AT 3:31 PM
Paul became an official spokesperson, because the early church accepted him as such.
In my book classified as Bible is True because the Bible says it is true
It would have taken a lot of accepting too, because he had originally been persecuting them heavily.
So, to have them accept him as an apostle was a huge deal.
Perhaps classified as “You had to be there.”
IMO, they did so because God chose him and accepted him.
Still travels to me as “And so Paul informed us.”
Regardless, to discount him is silly. The fact that he was accepted by the early church (and his writings accepted as Scripture) says a lot. He didn’t get accepted in a vacuum. Those in the know at the time did it.
See next comment
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A year or two ago, someone (who did not participate very long and whose comment I didn’t keep) said to me (I paraphrase from memory but I don’t think I am far off) something along the lines of
Random, to understand how Christians feel about homosexuality read Paul’s Chapter [whichever one where he rants about men consorting with men, I think] every night for 30 days.
I read it once or twice and then said to myself, Isn’t the kind of thing North Koreans did when they brainwashed American prisoners? [Compare Richard Condon's book and the movie based on it Manchurian Candidate]
I often wonder what I would do if subject to imprisonment, torture, Gulag and so on, including North Korean brainwashing and “re-education.” I have been fired once for sticking to principle, and I once removed a gun from the hand of an elderly man waving it in terror at a kid, but in general I don’t regard myself as a “hero”; nor do I play one on television or blog.
Anyway, it was a nice try at indoctrination, though very silly. It doesn’t work over the Internet, or at least not over the age of six. (Maybe you still have a shot at my granddaughter.)
The more pertinent point in regard to Paul is why according to “Christian doctrine” is homosexuality wrong? As many people here seem to lean toward depending on the Old Testament may not be that appropriate.
Jesus did not say, “Do not be a homosexual.” [Various sarcastic comments semi-self-censored.]
If you are going to tie it to the New Testament, where do you go…besides…Paul?
I wouldn’t buy it that homosexuality is a sin even if Jesus did say it, but you are the people saying we get our values and our direction from the Bible. As I haven’t said for a while, I am just a radical agnostic playing the seams [football slang].
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Messed up my html tags. However, you can still read what I had to say, even if I irritated you with Victoria Bold.
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Random Name – “Jesus did not say, “Do not be a homosexual.” [Various sarcastic comments semi-self-censored.]”
The reason Jesus did not speak on homosexual. The Jewish people He was speaking to knew it was wrong. So He did not have to address the issue.
Paul address the issue because the people he was speaking to where not all Jewish and did not know it was wrong.
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#188
Mickey, I am sending the bat symbol up to you in regard to first paragraph of that comment. Perhaps you could have a word with the comment poster about how she speaks of other people who post comments, as you did with me?
I am not sure saying I am just like an artist who was not properly potty trained is really appropriate. Children read this blog, so so that same person complained to me once or twice.
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Random: you answered yourself. “We get our values and direction from the Bible.”
Paul’s writings are part of the Bible.
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I’ve stopped reading Random’s ramblings and diatribes. Life is too short.
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tjs catlover 10.30.09 AT 6:52 PM
Random: you answered yourself. “We get our values and direction from the Bible.”
Paul’s writings are part of the Bible.
-
amen
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Pastor Roy, the one I remember is he wants us to agree not to post and he’ll go away.
With respect to Paul, I’ve always felt that a chap who was caught up to the seventh heaven on his way to Damascus was pretty reliable.
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tjs catlover,
For those of us who aren’t evangelical-fundamentalist Christians (or other kinds of religious conservatives) we want you to understand that each of those sexual behaviors to which you might object should be examined on their own regard and not try to “pin” them all to those of us who might think certain other sexual behaviors that the Bible prohibits like consensual homosexual acts are not immoral.
For instance, if you are dealing with brother sister incest, that has NOTHING to do with homosexuality and shouldn’t be connected with those of us who may be pro-gay. If anything it should be connected with YOU FOLKS because the Genesis tale implicitly teaches the human race was propaged by brother sister incest approved by the biblical God.
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183
TJS Catlover
SteveG, yesterday’s WV #76: My list is not either specious. Bestiality and necrophilia are victimless. I’ve heard that people who practice bestiality claim to treat the animals with care and love. I see no reason to not believe them. And corpses are … dead. If you’re not Christian, (which I know you are, but we have plenty on this site who aren’t), why do you care?
I really, really, don’t care what someone does with my body after I am dead. Really. I am only a “not that evil” nihilist while alive, but I am a REALLY REALLY REALLY indifferent nihilist after I am dead. But I am sentimental about my wife and daughter and daughter out of law and granddaughter, and they might be shocked if you have sex with my not that attractive corpse. So please don’t. No matter what another comment poster thinks about my bathroom habits (see above), I don’t believe you really want to abuse my corpse.
As for pedophilia: I’ve heard psychological reports that say that it does not negatively impact the children, as long as they are shown love, and not abuse. NAMBLA actually exists, you know. They certainly don’t think they’re harming anyone. I see no reason to not believe them.
When a high school student of mine told me that her stepfather had been regularly raping her, it was obvious to me that she was quite traumatized. I reported the situation to the sheriff, not only because it was against the law, but also because I am a sentimental old fool. It’s not that easy being a nihilist if you aren’t raised as one, as I presume Stalin, and Hitler, and Mao, and Pol Pot were. Don’t try this at home.
“Incest is taboo because for reproduction, the gene pool needs to be more diverse.” — Um… you do realize you just used the “reproduction” argument that is apparently so horrible when used against homosexuality?
This is very confused thinking. Please forgive me for being so blunt.
Incest is a bad idea because it increases the possibility of defective offspring. Homosexuality increases the possibility of no offspring, (despite my daughter and Mary Cheney, and so on.)
About “taking my logic the other way,” you seem to have missed my point. I was arguing on mainly moral grounds, not US law. I’m saying that I have no arguments against any of these outside Christianity. With Christianity, God has not said that interracial marriage is wrong.
Perhaps before your time on worldmagblog, but you might want to have a word with a gentleman who used to post comments here with the screen name Night Train. He seemed to have a problem with interracial marriage. But then he dropped his Christian beliefs, so maybe it’s alright.
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Brother-Sister incest was allowed (apparently) at the beginning, but not later.
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Random
You always bring up Christ not saying anything about homosexuality, which is a completely specious argument.
Since it had been well-said in the Old Testament, and since it was the NORM of the day, what it would have required is for Him to SAY SOMETHING FOR IT in order for the standard laws to change. He certainly had no problem reinterpreting and restating other parts of the Law, yet, He allowed the prohibition against homosexuality to stand uncontested.
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Jon,
#200
You’re not getting it. Without God, the SAME ARGUMENTS apply to these other groups as to homosexuality. It is only YOUR PERSONAL disgust with some of them that make you against them. There is no moral reason to make them wrong without God.
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Likewise, what is “pedophilia.” If it’s sex with little children, I’m not sure where the Bible specifically forbids that (other than in the more GENERAL prohibition on harm on innocent children).
If we go by the modern definition where post-pubescent teens are not permitted have consensual sex with adults, well then such relationships have long been blessed by traditional bible believing Christian churches as long as they involve one boy one girl in a marriage. Think of throughout history where biblical Christian churches married males who were 18 or over and females who were in their early teens (like Lorretta Lynn in the 1950s).
The Jewish Bar and Batmitsfah arguably implicitly endorses what the modern world would term pedophilia, where girls are adults and consenquently ready for marriage (and by logical necessity sex) at age 12, boys, 13 (coincidentially the age of puberty). This is “traditional Judeo-Christian values” 101.
The point of all this is to note simply, don’t pin the pro-gay folks with things like pedophilia or incest. There is NO necessary logical relationship between and among these things.
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TRS,
I disagee; moral arguments have been made without God. And even if we need “God” (some higher power for morality), we don’t necessarily need “the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God,” but rather simply some higher power to whom we are all accountable. In other words, Rev. Gene Robinson’s pro-gay God will suffice for the logical argument, just as your God or the Islamic God or the Jewish, non-Triune non NT God would.
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The reason Jesus did not speak on homosexual. The Jewish people He was speaking to knew it was wrong. So He did not have to address the issue.
Paul address the issue because the people he was speaking to where not all Jewish and did not know it was wrong.
Here is how you spell the word “reach.”
R E A C H
As in really a desperate one, I think. My sarcasm gland needs to be wiped off.
OK. Jesus was the Son of God. He knew he was speaking words that would be a guide for all mankind. Unless…maybe Jesus really existed, but really wasn’t anything but a man, and his words were passed on by verbal traditions (with Paul in the middle there somewhere) and eventually written down as “Gospels” and eventually became the most important and powerful religious belief the world ever saw, but only one among several such as Hinduism and Buddhism and Islamd and so on. Consult a standard survey of World Religions. Consider the following possibilities:
a) Humans can invent religions. (See list above.)
b) All religions have some truth. Very sentimental and kind of what Gandhi believed and the Unitarians and so on, but really?
c) All religions are invented, except one, which is absolutely true. The Catholic version and the Protestant version and the Orthodox version. Well, maybe not the Mormon version or the Jehovah’s Witness version, or the Seventh Day Adventist version…
d) All religions are invented (using the word “invent” very loosely, I admit).
Aren’t you glad you made such a strong and unassailable point? Remember what I said about looking for seams?
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I can’t imagine any of my Jewish friends believing that a bar mitzvah or a bat mitzvah endorses pedophilia. That is outrageous — and I’m pinning that outrage on a pro-gay folk trying to justify NAMBLA, etc. In other words, I wouldn’t let you spend two minutes with my “adopted” niece, little Miss Hannah or her brother.
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I disagree with Random on the argument against incest. Incest is wrong for two reasons (neither of which is the Bible forbids it). One, it strongly risks abuse of younger children by older family members in positions of power. And two it introduces sexual competition into families which risks destabilizing them. In other words, we don’t want aging mothers competing with their younger daughters for the sexual affections of the father.
Woody Allen was not married to Mia Farrow. Soon Yi was not her biological daughter. Woody Allen had no legal relationship with Soon-Yi. It was technically “not incest.” However, his behavior was wrong for the very reason why incest is wrong.
And all of this has nothing to do with the Bible or homosexuality.
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NJL,
I could care less WHAT YOU THINK or how you might distort my arguments.
The fact is the Jewish Bar and Bat mitsfah, if you understand ANYTHING about it, represents the tradition when children turn into adults.
In today’s world, it represents an ancient custom with no real world application; in the Ancient World, it meant something; those children were now adults, ready for read world work, marriage and childbearing.
If you can’t accept fact and logic that’s YOUR PROBLEM.
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#203
Not quite as bad a reach, but still a reach.
Sexuality is one the most difficult areas of human life. One in which most people have shame and guilt and embarrassment and ambivalence, even if they are celibate before marriage and faithful while married and so on.
One of the ways in which people deal with emotional stress is they find scapegoats.
Now some scapegoats may deserve restraint or punishment and so on. A scapegoat can be genuinely bad. Communists and Nazis, for example. But just as Freud supposedly (but probably didn’t) said, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,” sometimes a scapegoat is sometimes somebody we just pick on because it makes us feel better. Like black people back in the good old days. Then it became very uncool to pick on black people.
Let’s see…who is next in line….
Homosexuals!
Yes, that’s the ticket!
And then you take the Old Testament and Paul and you make yourself a Scapegoat sandwich.
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NJL,
And for the record I wouldn’t let you near my nieces and nephews because I strongly suspect you are Christian pedophile who turns to your religion for all of the guilt you have over what you’ve done to children.
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
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[I actually don't believe this; I wrote it to illustrate how OUTRAGEOUS NJL's comments were in 208. She owes me an apology and a retraction and should be BANNED from this website on conduct unbecoming if she does not.]
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NJLawyer – 208
I agree with you – however – the “bar mitzvah or a bat mitzvah endorses pedophilia” is used to get a rise out of whomever will engage- Not enough to post about so the UPROAR is a means for argument, no matter how outrageous or morally shocking.
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The fact that the appalling Victoria, one of the worst “Christian witnesses” on this website, agrees with NJL in 208 just digs the whole deeper.
What I said stands: The bar and batmitsfahs STANDS in principle for the proposition that girls are marriage adults at 12, boys, 13. No Jewish person in the modern era holds to this anymore. But in the Ancient World they did.
I don’t know why folks here find that — what is true — so offensive.
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TRS: Brother-Sister incest was allowed (apparently) at the beginning, but not later.
But God and God’s morality don’t change, do they? So how can it be that something was ok for a time and then become sin?
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In 214 I meant “marriageable adults.”
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And by the way, this was the best post I could find on YouTube of the Seinfeld episode, before I get smeared even more, the point I was trying to make was comically parodies in one of the episodes of Seinfeld featured in the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep2N9SHIRbs
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#208 is outrageous. Jon made an entirely true observation — that the ritual represents the transition from childhood to adulthood, that is its historical significance and always has been — and NJL accuses him of being a probable pedophile.
Of all the outrageously STUPID things NJL has said around these parts, that wins the prize. And if the powers that be here want to ban me for calling stupid what it is, so be it.
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These two don’t match up –
Many thanks SteveG.
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You’re welcome. If I disappear from here, you’ll know why.
But it had to be said. I am really tired of NJL accusing people of vile things with no justification.
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woe
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Jon, 200: I repeated a couple of times in my original post that I was making no moral judgments. What I want to know is why you think I am. You immediately equated pedophilia, etc. with “bad,” and were a tad miffed that I was drawing any comparison with homosexuality. Why? Why is it automatically a bad thing to be equated with such things?
Random, 201: What I want is immaterial. There are plenty of necrophiliacs, and I am still wondering why you have an issue with their lifestyle. (Do you?)
You high school student was the victim of both rape and pedophilia. Which one was “traumatizing?”
I have seen people and posters be attacked for daring to use the ridiculous argument that homosexuality is against nature, because it can’t produce offspring. And you turn around and say that incest is against nature because it might produce defective offspring? I thought sex was about relationships.
I remember some of Night Train. He certainly wasn’t Christian when I heard from him. I don’t care what his ideas about interracial marriage were: interracial marriage is irrelevant.
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The fact of the matter is: if I am to disregard my religion and religious arguments, yes, I will accept homosexuality. I will also accept my laundry list of other sexual lifestyles. I’m not trying to make a moral judgment about homosexuality by equating it with these: I am trying to say that your position is inconsistent.
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Jon Rowe, would you please create a YouTube link for dmitri hvorovstovsky votre toast. It’s incredible. I can’t do that on my phone…
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The fact of the matter is: if I am to disregard my religion and religious arguments, yes, I will accept homosexuality.
You are on a very slippery path.
I don’t know that Jon and I disagree, but I think his points expand the analysis of incest in a sensible way.
Random, 201: What I want is immaterial. There are plenty of necrophiliacs, and I am still wondering why you have an issue with their lifestyle. (Do you?)
Seriously, I find Necrophila disgusting. So what?
Literally, I don’t care what happens to my corpse after I die. Why should I? In general, I don’t like to harm or irritate other people. Most people get upset if bodies of people they love are disturbed, so it’s reasonable to me to discourage any corpse mutilation, but it’s more a matter of politeness than ethics or morality.
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EYG: Here is what I found:
http://tinyurl.com/yensst9
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Randon,
I gave reasons why incest was wrong; though I forgot to include why the genetic argument wasn’t valid. Systematic incest does indeed hurt the genepool. A baby born by an occasional act of incest, as I understand, has a slightly increased chance for certain health problems. However, we don’t forbid people from having children on the basis that it might pass on genetic problems. (In fact such reproductions happen all the time.)
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222,
I gave good reason why I used that term and in fact I qualified it with “what some people term” pedophilia. Arguably having sex with an underaged but pubescent teen is not pedophilia but ephebophilia.
My underlying point remains: Judeo-Christian custom held that girls were marriagable (and hence sexable) adults at 12, boys at 13. And some folks today call that pedophilia. And almost everyone TODAY (not then) agrees that 12 and 13 year olds shouldn’t be having sex.
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You high school student was the victim of both rape and pedophilia. Which one was “traumatizing?”
My definition of sexual ethics, which is not based on God, but is based on my cultural teaching and my upbringing, is:
No unwanted pain or force [no rape; no violence, no coercion]
Old enough to be responsible and make choices [no pedophilia]
Avoid unwanted consequences and side effects [avoid unwanted pregnancy and provide reasonable plan B if it happens such as marriage; encourage adoption instead of abortion; avoid STDs; don't do it in public, etc.]
By and large, this is how humans conduct themselves, but not with much reliability and consistency, whether they are religious believers or not.
I have no magic cure for the problem of human sexuality which I point out over and over and which everyone ignores over and over. Come on, folks. It’s not that difficult to realize, though it is that difficult to solve.
My granddaughter is five and very willful and very cute. I won’t be around to try and shape her as a teenage. He mommies will tell her to avoid careless sex; she may pay attention and be sensible; it’s quite likely she won’t. Your Christian-raised child or grandchild will be in the same boat as my atheist two-mommies-raised granddaughter: he or she may be sensible and self-controlled or quite likely may not. Shall I remind you of a mother called Sarah Palin and her daughter?
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NOTICE: There are two William Ayers at the top of the list -
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Jon Rowe, endorsing child marriages isn’t the same as endorsing pedophilia, but you are right that calling a person an adult at 12 or 13 is allowing early marriage. But I don’t know that we’re in a better situation now, when we don’t allow early marriage but do condone early sex!!
The age of 18 for adulthood is arbitrary. Allowing (say) a 15-year-old to marry with her father’s blessing is not pedophilia, and is not automatically wrong. That same 15-year-old having sex, and risking out-of-wedlock pregnancy, is FAR worse in what it does to culture and family relationships. I can’t really argue in favor of 15-year-olds getting married today, but I can say that a culture that encourages 15-year-olds to get married is far, far healthier than a culture that encourages them to have sex but not get married.
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Evidently the William Ayers is not the one that has been linked to Obama.
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Cheryl,
I agree with you that it would be better for a 15 year old who IS going to have a baby, have the baby when married.
I don’t agree that we necessarily condone young teens to have sex but not get married. There are age of consent laws in almost all states that will nail an adult having sex with someone under the age of 16 and there has been an upward drift in these age of consent laws over the past 50 years or so.
The problem is there are buffer zones and Romeo and Juliet laws that make it legal for two 15 year olds to have sex but not a 20 year old and a 15 year old (not that it shouldn’t be this way; but the result is a 15 year old can have legal sex with someone close to her age).
I think most of liberal do gooder types just argue they should have access to condoms because they are going to do it anyone.
For one, I don’t condone ANYONE having sex under the age of 18 but I wouldn’t throw the book at an adult who has sex with a 16 or 17 year old.
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I meant, “I think most of liberal do gooder types just argue they should have access to condoms because they are going to do it anyway.”
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And back in the day when a lot of 15 year old girls got married, it wasn’t necessarily with her father’s “blessing” but at the point of his shotgun.
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I used to be under the impression that, as Jon Rowe says, males in Bible times were considered of marriageable age at 13. But my husband told me, when he was in seminary and learning all sorts of stuff about life in Bible times, that they married a few years later. The significance of the bar mitzvah was that they were morally accountable for keeping the law. It’s sort of an “age of accountability,” prior to which as children they weren’t expected to be able to keep the law but afterward as men they were.
There was no such thing as a bat mitzvah. This is a modern innovation, to give girls the chance to have a ceremony similar to what the boys have. They married young in Bible times, but not at age 12. They wouldn’t marry until they were able to bear children – that is, when they began menstruating. And while today that might be at age 12, puberty came later back then. Probably age 14 or 15.
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#228
that was it, Jon. Thank you very much.
That is the very best performance of the Toreador song, ever. Manly, musical…fantastic! I hope some of you will watch it. It held my attention all the way through. Also, everyone is having such a great time. If any of you watch it , please share your impressions with me.
My husband and I love it!
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EYG,
It’s great stuff. While I like music from all of the “eras” of “concert” music (renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, modern) I like music from the romantic era a lot because the melodies were still very listenable (unlike many modern composers) but the composers started doing some really funky things with chords and melodies and incorporating ethnic and folk themes. I think there’s a reason why prog-rockers like Keith Emerson go to a lot of late romantic music for rock versions of so called “classical music.” That’s when concert music really started to get funky, but before it became so “out” that it didn’t resonate to an ear used to tonal melodies.
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Pauline,
Thank you for your comment, insightful as always.
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Jon Rowe, when I was a kid, I hated Opera. A movie of Mozart’s Magic Flute had me upside down in my seat with torturous boredom! Somewhere along the line, I had a dramatic change. Now I love good Opera… And this is good Opera. Carmen is my favorite.
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“Speak! speak!thou fearful guest!
Who with thy hollow breast
Still in rude in armor drest,
Comest to daunt me!
Wrapt not in Eastern balms,
But with thy fleshless palms
Stretched, as if asking alms,
Why dost thou haunt me?”
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“O world so blind! O blind all man’s contriving!
How often things fall out in ways contrary,
Through vain presumption and conceited striving!
The proud and humble both are caught unwary,
For Troilus, who now mounts up so airy,
Hath little thought of afterward descending;
But folly oft hath unexpected ending.”
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“I like a look of Agony,
Because I know it’s true –
Men do not sham Convulsion,
Nor simulate, a Throe –
The Eyes glaze once – and that is Death –
Impossible to feign
The Beads upon the Forehead
By homely Anguish strung.”
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“Derision stirs the deep abyss,
Heaven’s ominous silence over all.
Return, return, O eager Hope,
And face man’s latter fall.”
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Random: I’m not asking you what you believe, I’m asking you why you believe it. And, more specifically at the moment, why you don’t apply that belief consistently.
Why am I on a slippery path? Because all that stands between me and depravity is my religion? I’ve always admitted that, Random.
Your granddaughter is, I’m sure, very cute, but also totally irrelevant.
Jon: I’m still curious as to why I’m supposed to accept the argument that incest is bad because it muddies the gene pool. I’ve heard, (especially from liberals on the subject of homosexuality), that offspring and “plumbing” shouldn’t affect the discussion, and that sex is simply a matter of pleasure. Plus, if I were an atheist and endorsed all of this, I’d just advocate ready abortions for any children with defects.
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TJS,
If you read my argument carefully you’ll see that I REJECT the argument that incest is bad because it causes genetic defects (because we currently allow folks with all sorts of terrible genetic defects to marry and have children, and consequently likely pass on those defects to their children).
I said incest is bad because 1) it risks harm to minor children and 2) risks destabilizing an intact family with sexual competition.
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“We are ghosts of the departed,
Souls of those who once were with you.
From the realms of Chibiabos
Hither we have come to try you,
Hither we have come to warn you.”
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Megacheph, chosen to serve the State
In the halls of the legislative debate,
One day with all his credentials came
To the capitol’s door and announced his name.
The doorkeeper looked, with a comical twist
Of the face, at the eminent egoist,
And said, ‘Go away, for we settle here
All manner of questions, knotty and queer,
And we cannot have, when the speaker demands
To be told how every member stands,
A man who to all things under the sky
Assents by eternally voting “I”‘.”
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“For all to whom the power’s given
To sway or to compel,
Among themselves apportion heaven
and give her…”
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This is what I mean by ELP/late romantic music.
I’ve heard some cool stuff by Bach, Beethoven on electric/rock music instruments, but THIS genre (Ravel/Mussorgsky) sounds so much more authentic played in the prog-rock genre.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y1×04hAUT4&feature=related
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We have a sampling of Longfellow, Chaucer, Dikinson, Bierce and Melville this evening. Enigmatic yet thematic commentary for WMB residents this evening. Greetings to all.
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Jon Rowe
I find there is nothing quite like classic verse to compel the soul onward to its final destiny.
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The shutters are closed for the evening in this little cyber Hollow it doth appear.
The itinerant muse has arrived too late for an audience, tis apparent. I must find lodging for the night, then.
A good night to all.
Iambic Pentameter
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You know what’s depressing? TJS is trying to make a point. A very valid point, IMO.
But, everyone is building straw men and fighting them faster than he can possible respond.
Jon, as a college professor and someone I respect, I expected better of you.
Follow the logical argument.
Random, TJS isn’t saying he wants to do ANY of those things. He is simply pointing out that — without God — there is nothing but your own personal opinion that makes any of it right or wrong.
If you’ve ever heard the NAMBLA arguments, they claim it IS consensual and that they LOVE the child. They promote research that says it is NOT damaging to the child.
Do I believe that? Not on your life. But, THEY DO.
What makes them wrong? What makes you right?
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Random Name 10.30.09 AT 7:26 PM
The reason Jesus did not speak on homosexual. The Jewish people He was speaking to knew it was wrong. So He did not have to address the issue.
Paul address the issue because the people he was speaking to where not all Jewish and did not know it was wrong.
Here is how you spell the word “reach.”
R E A C H
As in really a desperate one, I think. My sarcasm gland needs to be wiped off.
OK. Jesus was the Son of God. He knew he was speaking words that would be a guide for all mankind. Unless…maybe Jesus really existed, but really wasn’t anything but a man, and his words were passed on by verbal traditions (with Paul in the middle there somewhere) and eventually written down as “Gospels” and eventually became the most important and powerful religious belief the world ever saw, but only one among several such as Hinduism and Buddhism and Islamd and so on. Consult a standard survey of World Religions. Consider the following possibilities:
a) Humans can invent religions. (See list above.)
b) All religions have some truth. Very sentimental and kind of what Gandhi believed and the Unitarians and so on, but really?
c) All religions are invented, except one, which is absolutely true. The Catholic version and the Protestant version and the Orthodox version. Well, maybe not the Mormon version or the Jehovah’s Witness version, or the Seventh Day Adventist version…
d) All religions are invented (using the word “invent” very loosely, I admit).
Aren’t you glad you made such a strong and unassailable point? Remember what I said about looking for seams?
—-
I just love how you asked a question someone answers your question and because it does not fit your world view it has to be wrong, Wow I was under the impression people like you were open minded people. Oh, well I guess I was wrong people like you are very closed mind people.
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Jesus did not need to speak on homosexuality. If there were a reason to change 2000 years of Jewish Law, He would have said so.
Paul spoke on homosexuality only as part of speaking about sin and other topics. In other words, it was brought up as an example (a long with a lot of other sins). He did not need to say it was a sin again (as if they didn’t know) as it was stated explicitly in the Old Testament. All the Jews did know that, and accepted the Law.
So, homosexuality came up in context in Paul’s writings.
There is no contradiction here. If Jesus had wanted to change the Law as regards homosexuality, He would have, as He did with other interpretations.
The Bible is a consistent book over 1000s of years. If God was Jesus’ father (and I believe He is), then there is no need to say, “And, you have to follow this law and that law and the other law.” What Jesus did do was point out where the people were understanding the Law incorrectly.
I’m sorry that is so hard for you to understand, Random. To me, that is as obvious as it could possibly be.
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Jon: the traditional nuclear family is a holdover from Christian thought. I thought we weren’t allowed to bring that up anymore, or so the gay activists tell me. It’s degrading to women, etc. Shame on you.
Incest is a big term, Jon, and I’m going to challenge your limited definition. Incest doesn’t have to have anything to do with children. Nor is it necessarily nonconsensual. See what I said to Random when he brought up the student who was being raped. I haven’t been including rape: that’s a different matter.
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Interestingly, no one has even mentioned to me why they oppose polygamy, polyandry, or polyamorous behavior, and those all necessarily involve only consenting adults.
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261
TJS,
You’re going to get the argument side-tracked again, because — for a short time — God permitted more than one wife in the Bible (although it NEVER, and I do mean NEVER worked out well, and it was never presented as the ideal or the desirable way to behave). So, they will argue that until the cows come home rather than your point.
Sigh.
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“Wow I was under the impression people like you were open minded people. Oh, well I guess I was wrong people like you are very closed mind people.”
Pastor Roy
As an innocent bystander to your conversation with the Jon Rowe person I would simply and humbly suggest avoiding ad hominem argumentation. It is unbecoming of sound discourse.
Iambic Pentameter
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tjs catlover 10.30.09 AT 11:51 PM
Interestingly, no one has even mentioned to me why they oppose polygamy, polyandry, or polyamorous behavior, and those all necessarily involve only consenting adults.
-
the problem those who had more then one wife, their family ended up in trouble
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TRS Sir or Madam
Biblical polygamy was the foundational relational methodology for the conception of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Women hotly contesting with one another over fertility bragging rites.
This brings up a difficult subject of course. Yet what must be squarely addressed is the fact that God interacted with and brought about His sovereign purposes with messy, sinful human beings and all of their rudeness, contentions, sexual propensities, jealousies and the likes.
Christians do a fairly good job of trying to keep their embarrassing patriarchs in the rest home.
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Iambic Pentameter 10.31.09 AT 12:03 AM
“Wow I was under the impression people like you were open minded people. Oh, well I guess I was wrong people like you are very closed mind people.”
Pastor Roy
As an innocent bystander to your conversation with the Jon Rowe person I would simply and humbly suggest avoiding ad hominem argumentation. It is unbecoming of sound discourse.
Iambic Pentameter
-
wrong person it was with Random Name .
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TRS: don’t get depressed!
I expected no solid arguments. I don’t think such exist.
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Or what they perceive to be embarrassing.
It is often my own thought that if many modern evangelicals had the opportunity, they might attempt to “clean up” the messy nature of the Old Testament families.
They do cause us to have to do a lot of explaining.
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Apologies to you Pastor Roy, for my misunderstanding of your ad hominem reference to close-mindedness. It appeared to be squarely directed at the Jon Rowe person.
Iambic Pentameter
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Iambic Pentameter 10.31.09 AT 12:12 AM
Or what they perceive to be embarrassing.
It is often my own thought that if many modern evangelicals had the opportunity, they might attempt to “clean up” the messy nature of the Old Testament families.
They do cause us to have to do a lot of explaining.
–
not at all the Old Testament families shows us the problem that happens when they do not listen to God.
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TJS
Such tearse provocation regarding your opponent’s intellect shall never yield the bountiful discourse which you covet.
This, however, is just a stranger’s observation. You of course may continue unhindered by my comments in your quest of rigorous debate.
I shall say though that ad hominem argumentation never provides ample and gracious space in which an adversary may reply.
Peter Pan lifted Hook up to his level to make the fight fair. He did not descend to his.
Iambic Pentameter
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Iambic Pentameter 10.31.09 AT 12:14 AM
Apologies to you Pastor Roy, for my misunderstanding of your ad hominem reference to close-mindedness. It appeared to be squarely directed at the Jon Rowe person.
Iambic Pentameter
-
no problem it is easy to misread people posting
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Thank you Pastor Roy for your reply.
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270: Oh, it’s not their fault. I can’t come up with an argument to refute myself either. (I usually try.) Like I said, I don’t think there is an answer. That’s why I asked in the first place. I expected that I was biased and probably overlooked something.
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TJS
The self is a mortal enemy indeed! By one turn the flesh believes it has usurped its foes only to find it doesn’t believe itself! Alas! When all seems dark, dim and all brash confidence has fled our feeble frame, ah! Then and only then do we begin to see the light of God’s wisdom. Confound the flesh. Stand, O flesh and be still! Desist from striving.
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There is an answer beyond our striving. From Eden we inherit the curse of knowing but not knowing.
In knowning evil, we loose much good, much sense. Our vision is obscured, dimmed and failing. We come to dead ends. Enigmas. Imponderable, unanswerable parables. One bite has barred many a door!
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I shall simply suggest this about polygamy.
One bite of forbidden fruit shattered man’s monogamous contentment. It turned nakedness into shame, intimacy into fear and severed full-borne, trinitarian Godhead communion from man forever in this curse-laden world, sending him into a barren, thorn-infested wilderness on a circuitous, darkened quest for elusive satisfaction amidst sweat, toil and vanity. Who wouldn’t want an extra spouse or two for the journey?
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Polygamy is, in Iambic Pentameter’s assessment, the logical result of monogamy, intercourse and intimacy being infected and interlaced with the deadly knowledge of evil and the reality of sin. It is hyper-relational inflamation of the loins caused by a darkened and twisted knowledge of oursevles and each other we were never created to contain within our persons; one which has a tendency to call evil good and good, evil.
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Iambic,
I hope you tire of your extended soliloquy soon.
“Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart.”
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“Who should withhold me?
Not fate, obedience, nor the hand of Mars
Beckoning with fiery truncheon my retire;
Not Priamus and Hecuba on knees,
Their eyes o’ergalled with recourse of tears;
Not you, my brother, with your true sword drawn,
Opposed to hinder me, should stop”
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I’m a writer. Blogs are where I practice. Input from others is always welcomed, interesting and fun.
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Cheryl:
when we don’t allow early marriage but do condone early sex!!
How do you stop early sex? Chastity belts?
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About #247 TJS Catlover
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Try again, about #247 TJS Catlover
Random: I’m not asking you what you believe, I’m asking you why you believe it. And, more specifically at the moment, why you don’t apply that belief consistently.
TJS Catlover. I answered your question. You ignored my answer. Now you are beginning to sound like yeah. I believe it because I am a product of my nurture and my heredity, as are you.
Why am I on a slippery path?
You are on a slippery path because you may be beginning to realize that by clinging to your religion so blindly you are engaging in unpleasant and needless pestering and restricting of people who are not particularly harming you or society, such as homosexuals. If homosexuality is wrong, why don’t you kill them as religious leaders once did? Because they started on a slippery slope when they gave up stoning and drowning and hanging because of their religious beliefs. Now you just hassle them, just as atheists no longer persecute Christians. They just hassle them be trying to remove “under God” from the flag salute and from our money and by trying to stop invocations from government meetings.
Once again: the “persecution” of Christians and the “persecution” of homosexuals should be linked. For example, why should Christians be allowed to proselytize in countries such as Nepal that don’t want them to?
Because all that stands between me and depravity is my religion? I’ve always admitted that, Random.
You sound as if you are tormented with guilt and self-hatred. Perhaps you should get some help in regard to that self-abuse.
Your granddaughter is, I’m sure, very cute, but also totally irrelevant.
As RG is very smart, she may or may not already know the word “irrelevant.” She probably would not like being called irrelevant. Are inconvenient fetuses irrelevant when we discuss abortion? Please watch your language.
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I like cats a little better than dogs, but I get along with dogs all right as well.
Are you familiar with the mechanics of feline sexual congress? The male member has sharp spines and causes a great deal of pain as it is withdrawn from the female. I am trying to describe this in a clinical and impersonal fashion, as a doctor might.
In any case, this sounds kinky to me. Perhaps cats should not be allowed to get married, though I am not sure one can stop cats from tomcatting.
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TRSL Random, TJS isn’t saying he wants to do ANY of those things. He is simply pointing out that — without God — there is nothing but your own personal opinion that makes any of it right or wrong.
I don’t think anybody’s really disagreed with that. Where I have a problem with TJS’s argument is the implication that without a God determining what is right and wrong, that it’s all the same. That two men who are same-sex attracted but are otherwise just like anyone, and who want to form a lifelong monogamous partnership, rear adopted children, earn livings and pay taxes and have a happy old age together, are exactly the same as the reclusive weirdo who harbors impure thoughts about dead bodies.
Even without an appeal to divinely ordained morality, there’s a very obvious difference between those two things.
I also think the appeal to “Biblical morality” is necessarily problematic, because then you have to immediately start going into contortions to explain why homosexuality is still wrong but eating shellfish is now ok, or why men in the Bible could have two or more wives with God’s approval, and yet really “Biblical morality” is one man, one woman only.
In addition, I believe it was TJS Catlover who in the 10/29 WV assured us that God’s moral laws are unchanging, and just in this thread, TRS has pointed out two examples of God’s moral laws that changed.
Bottom line is, I DO believe that what is right and wrong flows from God, but it is in at least some instances a lot harder than most conservative Christians realize or accept to figure out just what it is.
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Nebraska
Auburn
Oregon
PSU
Temple
North Texas
Vols 22, Gamecocks 13
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Random,
You’re ignoring the argument, and you’re being rude.
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Steve,
I’ve done no such thing. God has ALWAYS said homosexuality is wrong.
He has ALWAYS said that polygamy is not what He desires, although He *allowed* it in early times.
As for sibling marriage, I see no where it was allowed, but many places where it was permitted (perhaps?) near the Fall (when our bodies were closer to perfection?)
Personally, I’ve never been convinced that Adam and Eve’s kids married each other, but that is a subject for another thread.
Still, ALL OF THIS MISSES THE POINT TJS WAS MAKING. It is more straw men. It is more fighting with side issues. It continue to avoid the POINT.
“Even without an appeal to divinely ordained morality, there’s a very obvious difference between those two things.
NO THERE ISN’T, except in your own mind and by your OWN definition.
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Where I have a problem with TJS’s argument is the implication that without a God determining what is right and wrong, that it’s all the same.
******Because it IS. Show us why that is not the case. So far, Random has been pushed down to find insults where none where given (his granddaughter IS irrelevant to this discussion), and to insult TJS.
You go off on side-tracks.
Show us how and WHY they are different without God.
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TRS: I already did. If you think that someone getting self-centered jollies from a corpse or an animal is exactly the same kind of thing as two same-sex people forming a life-long union based on mutual love, respect and commitment, then I really don’t know what more I can say.
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Some people are tone deaf to music. Some of them sing loudly, believing they are in tune.
Some people are tone deaf to ethics. They tell other people what to do all the time, believing they are being ethical and loving.
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He has ALWAYS said that polygamy is not what He desires, although He *allowed* it in early times.
Actually, He never said anything about it at all. The first statement in the entire Bible that specifically implies monogamy (and even it doesn’t come right out and say it’s the standard) is Jesus’s words about “a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh.”
The laws that YHVH gives in the Pentateuch have a lot of regulations of sex and marriage, but nowhere in them does God say that a man shall have only one wife. Some of them assume that polygamy is the norm, and indeed many of the people in the Old Testament had multiple wives.
And there’s a difference between what God desires and what He decrees.
This is what I meant in #285, that it’s not always so obvious what the supposedly clear, objective moral standard is. You cannot find one clear statement in the entire Bible that polygamy is against God’s law, yet almost all Christians today insist that it is.
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Without God, it is exactly the same. And, guess what: without God, the loving, monogamous heterosexual church-going, charity-donating Christian couple is also exactly the same. There is no reason to say that necrophilia is bad. As Random says: human sexuality can’t be controlled (without God). And, (without God) there is no reason to try.
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Random: I’m beginning to sound like someone who could have been persuaded to kill homosexuals? Don’t worry: I’m not. I think I explained to you not that long ago my views on homosexuality. It is a sin: nothing more or less. I’m not going to kill people over it, and the most “pestering” I’ve ever done is repeat that it’s a sin (and only a sin) on a blog.
I don’t buy “nature” or “heredity.” I don’t have that kind of blind faith. You don’t buy the Bible. And there we go. You still ignored my question about the consistent application of your beliefs. It makes me wonder a bit why Steve is the one trying to prove that you can distinguish morally between various sexual preferences without God. He’s not even an atheist.
I get up every morning and say “TJS, you are a fallen sinner, but God has forgiven you.” You get up every morning and say “Random, you are going to die, and it won’t matter what kind of a person you are.” Who is abusing himself?
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So, if polygamy isn’t against God’s law, why does the pro-homosexual crowd always want to deny adding polygamy when they redefine marriage? Joel Mark always brings it up and they always say there’s no reason to allow it.
Not very consistent.
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#293: Then how do you suppose it came about that almost all human cultures, including those that came up apart from the Judaic culture, have managed to develop sexual customs and taboos that are not much different from what you believe is Biblical morality?
Can you think of any human cultures or religions that DON’T proscribe bestiality, incest and necrophilia?
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TJS,
If you read my argument on this thread and others carefully, you’ll see that I did concede tying things to “God” does help to make things binding in an “ought” sense, at all times, everywhere (it solves the problem of relativism). However, not everyone believes in the same revelation that you do. Some folks believe in God, not the Bible. Some believe the Bible is partially inspired (that is parts of it are the Word of God, parts are interpolations). Some add additional Holy Books (i.e., the Mormons and Muslims). Some take the biblical canon and add rules discovered from the natural law (i.e., Roman Catholics and some other non-RC Christians). Some (the Jews) believe in your first Holy Book (the OT) but that your second book (the NT) is not the Word of God. And even among evangelicals, they interpret the same words, verses and chapters to mean different things. And, reading the same Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God, they differ on moral matters of such great import that they fight (or have fought) bloody wars over the matter.
In short, if you want to connect your favorite moral issues to God to make it binding, fine. However, trying to connect your absolute morality to verse and chapter prooftexting raises more problems than it solves.
It’s a non-starter — the equivalent of spitting in the wind — in the modern society that we live in where we are not all of the same religion and where ecclessiastical authorities do not rule politics from the top down.
That’s the only potential way for your divine command theory of political morality to work; and it arguably didn’t even work when tried; it led to the persecution of minority sects and burning of heretics at the stake.
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Also Ken,
If you read my argument on this thread and others carefully, you’ll see that I did concede tying things to “God” does help to make things binding in an “ought” sense, at all times, everywhere (it solves the problem of relativism). However, not everyone believes in the same revelation that you do. Some folks believe in God, not the Bible. Some believe the Bible is partially, even if it’s most of which, inspired (that is parts of it are the Word of God, parts are interpolations). Some add additional Holy Books (i.e., the Mormons and Muslims). Some take the biblical canon and add rules discovered from the natural law (i.e., Roman Catholics and some other non-RC Christians). Some (the Jews) believe in your first Holy Book (the OT) but that your second book (the NT) is not the Word of God. And even among evangelicals, they interpret the same words, verses and chapters to mean different things. And, reading the same Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God, they differ on moral matters of such great import that they fight (or have fought) bloody wars over the matter.
We’ve discussed this matter in particular, say what you want about and disagree if you will with what Drs. Gregg Frazer and John MacArthur believe, but they are as intelligent, biblically learned, and devout evangelical-fundamental Christians as ANYONE on this site. And they, in good faith, with COMPLETE biblical knowledge of the relevant verses and chapters of scripture, believe revolution is absolutely forbidden, the moral equivalent of witchcraft. And this includes the American Revolution. And indeed, a bloody war (the American Revolution) was fought with evangelicals, believing in the same inerrant, infallible Bible on both sides but differing in their interpretations.
We could say something similar about the Civil War with Abe Lincoln — a man who though he believed in God, most certainly did NOT believe the Bible inerrant or infallible, leading the victorious side.
In short, if you want to connect your favorite moral issues to God to make it binding, fine. However, trying to connect your absolute morality to verse and chapter prooftexting raises more problems than it solves.
It’s a non-starter — the equivalent of spitting in the wind — in the modern society that we live in where we are not all of the same religion and where ecclessiastical authorities do not rule politics from the top down.
That’s the only potential way for your divine command theory of political morality to work; and it arguably didn’t even work when tried; it led to the persecution of minority sects and burning of heretics at the stake.
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Oops. Last repeat comment posted on wrong thread.
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NJLawyer,
Yes, it is inconsistent to advocate for legally redefining marriage for homosexual advocates but refusing to legally redefine it for polygamy advocates. Both groups can claim to retain the standard of consent between adults who claim to be in love. I like Jesus’ standard instead:
* “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” Matthew 19:4-6, Jesus–making it clear that from the beginning, marriage was intended to be one man and own woman (two becoming one).
Take care, NJL.
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So, if polygamy isn’t against God’s law, why does the pro-homosexual crowd always want to deny adding polygamy when they redefine marriage? Joel Mark always brings it up and they always say there’s no reason to allow it.
Not very consistent.
What is the “pro-homosexual crowd?” I believe in tolerating homosexuality if it is nor violating other reasonable legal and ethical behaviors (rape, etc., and in allowing homosexual relationships without calling it “marriage.” I have never said that homosexuality is wonderful. I have never urged people to be homosexual.
I have said that I have known people in polyamorus relationships that and I have said that legal arrangements should be tolerated for people in such (subject to exceptions above). Joel acts as if he has never heard me say this. Now you are engaging in the same behavior.
As I have said, I see this similar to toleration of Christianity.
I don’t think Christianity is true. I don’t think Christianity has demonstrated the ability to run society. I don’t advocate persecuting Christians or banning Christianity. I think Christians should be allowed to publish books and magazine and create web sites and build churches. If homosexual/polyamorous consenting adult humans are not allowed to form civil unions/domestic partnerships, non-Christian countries should be allowed to prohibit prosetylzing.
I see no more reason why a country should allow Christians to proselytize their youth than you see to allow people to form legal unions per above. Why is proselytizing a “basic right?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Perhaps you might try being friendly; perhaps I might be more inclined to take your side in your irrational and questionable expectations if you take my side with mine.
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Random: I’m beginning to sound like someone who could have been persuaded to kill homosexuals? Don’t worry: I’m not. I think I explained to you not that long ago my views on homosexuality. It is a sin: nothing more or less. I’m not going to kill people over it, and the most “pestering” I’ve ever done is repeat that it’s a sin (and only a sin) on a blog.
You don’t strike me as a person who could be persuaded to kill homosexuals. I suspect that in person you are a civil and sensible person with a lot of nonsense in your mind.
If you had a homosexual child, I suspect you would do the decent and sensible thing, though with a lot of anguish. Vicki (VS) (no longer alive) told me that she had a child living without marriage and with children. She had not rejected her child.
I suggest you read Chapter 31 of Huckleberry Finn.
Read about John Newton, a British captain who had carried slaves, had been himself a slave, and then became an abolitionist.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb050/is_4_71/ai_n28965931/
When other Puritans feared and persecuted Indians, how did Roger Williams became a Christian who “waged” and made peace with Indians? When other Puritans hung Quakers, Roger Williams criticized them intensely and invited them to live in peace.
Your instincts strike me as good ones. Your indoctrination struggles against your instincts. I suspect you realize this and struggle with this conflict much more than you are willing to admit here. But I don’t know. Perhaps you are as rigid and indoctrinated in person as you present yourself in your comments.
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#296: Which leads us back to my original post on the topic: Interesting phenomenon, no? The argument is circular, though: it makes sense because it happened. Notice, however, that as I Christian, I do have something of an answer. What do atheists have? If you notice, I am being a devil’s advocate. I have tried to make it clear that the arguments I am using (to prove the ultimate meaningless of morality, or the uselessness of discriminating between sexual lifestyles) work only without God, and are designed to show that the atheistic position is baseless and inconsistent. It’s not what I believe at all.
I’d hypothesize that all cultures in recorded history to date have been religious. Is that true? I can’t think of any atheist-dominated cultures per se. With the possible exception of recent communist states. And those didn’t and haven’t lasted long enough to truly tell, but they certainly show signs of a notable lack of any morality.
(P.S. I wish American schools would cover them in more detail, but I think I’ve heard that indigenous South American (and African?) cultures did indeed allow bestiality, necrophilia, etc.)
Of course, like I said, as a Christian, I have another answer as well. There is one objective truth, and all people are created in the image of God, and God is in ultimate control of all, so all people are still flawed bearers of His image. Atheists reject this idea out of hand. What are they left with?
(Note: To avoid confusion: I am still confused as to why atheists have morality. Without something like the Bible to ground me, I could easily overcome the pitiful dregs of conscience that humans are left with. (You know, the ones I say are due to a flawed reflection of God’s image and atheists say are “conditioning” and “heredity.”) They’re not a basis for squat: just corroboration for the Bible.)
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In the powers vested in me, I declare that TJS Catlover gets the final comment in this day’s edition of Whirled Views.
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Random – What is that power, & who gave it to you?
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Whoever it was, it didn’t work.
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304: what?
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What’s on Second. Or 307.
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Oh, that explains it.
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