Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Bring Christmas to a child in need!
The Senate votes along party lines to move healthcare reform down the field to the formal debate stage. 
Click to Print
Include Comments
“The crucifix creates discrimination”
Despite an argument from the Italian government that the crucifix is a national symbol of culture, history, identity, tolerance, and secularism, Europe’s court of human rights ruled today that displaying the religious symbol in Italian public schools violates religious and education freedoms and could disturb non-Christian or atheist students. The Italian government plans to appeal immediately, and the Roman Catholic Church was not happy with the ruling, with the Italian Bishop’s Conference issuing a statement: “The multiple significance of the crucifix, which is not just a religious symbol but a cultural sign, has been either ignored or overlooked.”
The court stopped short of ordering the removal of crucifixes but did fine the Italian government €5,000 ($7,390), payable to Soile Lautsi, who brought forth the case after her children’s school refused eight years ago to remove crucifixes from classrooms.
“We believe the ruling is a positive signal from Europe to Italy, which seems to increasingly lose its secularism,” Lautsi’s husband, Massimo Albertin told the ANSA news agency. “The crucifix creates discrimination.”
back to top29 Comments to ““The crucifix creates discrimination””
wow, Talk about no longer having control of your nation
Report comment to moderator
I’m with the EU court on this one. The crucifix is not a “cultural sign”. Or, if it is, that’s certainly not a good thing, or a legal argument I care to support.
Report comment to moderator
The crucifix is a “cultural sign,” but then so are all religious symbols! That fact alone doesn’t rob them of their principal purpose as emblems of the imposition of a sectarian religion in the public square.
Take ‘em down!
Report comment to moderator
wow, we see the anti-christian posting here. The Cross is evil to some.
Report comment to moderator
My point is that I can’t behind the Italian govt’s reasoning here, that the cross is “secular enough” that they should be able to display it in all the public schools. If that is, in fact, true, then it’s certainly not cause for celebration.
Report comment to moderator
…could disturb non-Christian or atheist students.
Quite a legal standard to tell another nation what to do. Will they order Turkey to remove the crescent moon from all public buildings if it “could disturb” Christians? This is a sign that pluralism can only last so long; eventually one faction gains control and forces conformity. So it must always be in a society based on relativism – because nature loathes a vacuum, it will end in dictatorship.
Report comment to moderator
BY buddyglass 11.03.09 AT 1:01 PM
My point is that I can’t behind the Italian govt’s reasoning here, that the cross is “secular enough” that they should be able to display it in all the public schools. If that is, in fact, true, then it’s certainly not cause for celebration
–
The issue is again Courts taken control of Govt. an telling them the Cross is evil.
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy 11.03.09 AT 1:07 PM
…could disturb non-Christian or atheist students.
Quite a legal standard to tell another nation what to do. Will they order Turkey to remove the crescent moon from all public buildings if it “could disturb” Christians? This is a sign that pluralism can only last so long; eventually one faction gains control and forces conformity. So it must always be in a society based on relativism – because nature loathes a vacuum, it will end in dictatorship.
-
They can not do that it would be an offense to the Muslim and EU does not want to offend the Muslim. Christian Faith that is another story.
Report comment to moderator
Pastor Roy – you could just put the person’s screen name and post number, instead of the full content of the post you’re responding to. Just a suggestion.
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy -
thanks I just like to put the posting I am respond to up, the reason to try an cut down on any confusion.
Report comment to moderator
Give the non-Christian students vouchers to attend a privately funded atheist school.
Problem solved!
Next!!
Report comment to moderator
Roy #7:
The courts didn’t “take control”. EU member states voluntarily submitted themselves to the EU court’s authority.
And they didn’t say the cross is evil. They said it may be offensive to people who aren’t Christians and that, as such, the Italian can’t force public school students to view it.
Report comment to moderator
buddyglass – that is the problem with these nation and I believe it can be used by the Anti-Christ when he comes to power to take control of these nations.
Report comment to moderator
But of course the crucifix causes discrimination. Christians are discriminated against world wide, even to the point of having wives and daughters raped and murdered, husbands and sons murdered, property destroyed, and made to run for their very lives.
MARANATHA!
Report comment to moderator
Spinoza
Do you think people should not be allowed to wear a cross where you can see it?
Do you think that churches who display a cross outside should remove them?
Report comment to moderator
#13:
It’s no more a problem than U.S. states ceding authority to the federal government. Or U.S. counties ceding control to states. Or U.S. municipalities ceding authority to counties. Ad infinitum.
Presumably a country can still leave the EU if they so choose. Or be booted. They just lose the economic bonuses of free trade, etc.
Report comment to moderator
buddyglass 11.03.09 AT 5:26 PM
#13:
It’s no more a problem than U.S. states ceding authority to the federal government. Or U.S. counties ceding control to states. Or U.S. municipalities ceding authority to counties. Ad infinitum.
Presumably a country can still leave the EU if they so choose. Or be booted. They just lose the economic bonuses of free trade, etc.
–
The EU can tell the Countries, they must change their laws to meet the EU standard.
An if you think about God’s Word, it tells us the Anti- Christ will rise to power and take control of the Nations. Well if all the Nations are separated that would be hard. But if other Nations start to form their own version of the EU. Then it would be very easy to combines all of these nations EU types of governments into one.
Report comment to moderator
#4 You miss the point – the cross is an emblem of one particular religion. States ought not – according to ethical principles and our constitution – establish a particular religion at the expense of others or none.
“An if you think about God’s Word, it tells us the Anti- Christ will rise to power and take control of the Nations.”
And it was supposed to happen thousands of years ago – it didn’t – get over it!
Report comment to moderator
Spinoza -And it was supposed to happen thousands of years ago – it didn’t – get over it
–
sorry wrong again on this
Report comment to moderator
#17:
The EU can make judgments like that, yes. Because it’s a voluntary union. If want in then you play by their rules. If you don’t want to play by their rules, well, that’s your prerogative, but you won’t enjoy the theoretical benefits of being an EU member state. At least that’s how I understand it. If that’s accurate, then I have zero problem with it.
As for the anti-christ, if it is prophesied that he’ll take control of the nations, then it’s going to happen EU or no EU. One-world government or no one-world government. So I’m not especially concerned on that account.
Report comment to moderator
BuddyGlass # 12: “And they didn’t say the cross is evil. They said it may be offensive to people who aren’t Christians and that, as such, the Italian can’t force public school students to view it.”
According to your summary of the ruling, the court’s order seems a wee bit nit-picky. Has this court taken a stroll through any Italian city recently? Crosses, crucifixes, and religious symbols adorn nearly every building over 100 years old. If the Italians can’t force public school students to view crucifixes displayed in the schools, why can they force the entire population to view them displayed in the streets? It seems a bit, well, legalistic to say that displayed inside a building, the symbol is offensive ;however, protruding from the tallest spire in Rome, the symbol is cultural.
(clarification: I don’t know where you stand on this ruling, just discussing the summary of it that you posted.)
General comment: it doesn’t pay to sue in Europe. All she gets in 5000 euros?? If I remember correctly, that’s not even half of the minimum salary for a year’s work in France (the SMIC.) She was trying to make a statement, but I’m not quite sure what she accomplished in the country of the Roman Catholic Church.
Report comment to moderator
While renaissance images of the Madonna and child might fall correctly into the category of “Italian Culture”, I don’t think that it can be said that the crucifix itself has any unique Italian meaning, and if that meaning alluded to is to enforce the idea that Italy is a “Catholic Country” then the court is most likely correct to say it is creating discrimination.
Report comment to moderator
But of course the crucifix causes discrimination. Christians are discriminated against world wide, even to the point of having wives and daughters raped and murdered, husbands and sons murdered, property destroyed, and made to run for their very lives.
During the history of Christianity, Christians have been persecuted and Christians have persecuted.
I think Christians should be allowed to wear crosses and display crosses. I don’t know that government institutions should be displaying religious symbols and slogans.
As I’ve said, I think persecution or lack thereof of Christians and of homosexuals should be linked together. At the moment in the United States, neither group is much persecuted, though both groups engage in considerable whining. However, homosexuals’ status in society seems to be on the rise and Christians’ status in society seems to be on the wane.
Under my proposal, we will balance these out. However, as always, the devil is in the details.
Report comment to moderator
Random, are you sure that “whining” is the term you would like to use to describe the gay rights movement? What about asking for social security benefits is a “whine”?!
Report comment to moderator
The only reason people around the world get such a bellache over a crucifix or a cross, is that they have to aknowledge personal accountability for themselves, and their eternal desitination is determined by it.
1 Corinthians 1:18 says: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
end of story
Report comment to moderator
Mynock: I think Random has a point about the whining. I’m not going to pretend that I haven’t seen Christians do it too.
Social Security benefits? Educate me: what are these benefits? Why do gays not have them? And why do they merit “huge controversy” status?
Report comment to moderator
Whining, whingeing, kvetching…apparently we Jews have a monopoly on terms for loud and persistent complaining.
If a member of a married couple dies, the other gets some benefits. I have set up my pension from working for a library so that my wife gets full payments if I die first. I made a trade off in that our current benefits are lower, but it is a choice we have to make.
My daughter and her partner can not get the same kind of benefit. Our granddaughter’s sperm donor and his partner (a stable and long-time couple) do not have the opportunity to have similar arrangements. I think both those couples should have a similar opportunity. You don’t. We are enemies in this regard. Civil and non violent enemies, I presume, but opponents none the less. In five minutes the first election results should be coming in for Washington state. I hope you will be losing, though I don’t take it for granted that you will be. If you are, I look forward to your whining.
Report comment to moderator
#21:
If the issue is that these schools are in ancient buildings with “built-in” crucifixes, then I’m sympathetic to the Italian govt’s situation in that it would be costly to relocate them just to avoid the presence of religious imagery. In that case I’d support leaving the schools alone.
However, that’s not what I understood the ruling to be about. It sounded like the Italians were hanging up crucifixes in totally modern facilities “just because”.
Report comment to moderator
The crucifix is undeniably a clear symbol denoting Christianity. That said, I think it’s a valid question as to whether it belongs in the classroom. My company makes durable home consumer products, and darn good ones, but I don’t want to put crosses on all of them because our business is making stuff, not evangelizing. That’s my responsibility as an individual within the framework of the organization.
I applaud the Church’s stance on this but disagree with their reasoning. Rather than arguing that the crucifix has multiple significances, they should come right out and say “The crucifix is about Jesus, we’re the Catholic Church, and by golly, we think all you people need Jesus”. They should take the rock-basic position from which all others can deviate. That’s what they’re there for.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!