Comments on: The myth of greed

By: John M.

John M. — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:59:40 +0000

Great clarification Ken, put much better than I could. Thanks!

By: Harris

Harris — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:57:15 +0000

While I agree that there is an aspect of self-correction in the markets, that doesn’t really excuse the Christian. The terrifying part about such corrections is that sometimes whole economies do get blasted; people lose jobs; towns their commerce. Moreover, sometimes the seeming prosperity of the market comes at longer-lasting problems such as pollution (in Michigan we are still cleaning up after the lumber and paper industry, both now gone).

These externalities give pause. And for the Christian, the impact on lives will play a role on the degree of intervention.

To bring it around, when these industrial changes come with leverage — that is, with the real possibility of significant rewards, it becomes easy to see how the reward for the investor comes at the expense of the worker (who loses the job). As a moral consideration what are we to make of this investor’s role? Is it really neutral, a matter of self-interest akin to sex (’birds do it…’ I start to hum)? Or can we tell the investor that at this point the pull of riches may not only harm him (that’s greed, for you), but others — that’s GREED, for you too.

I’m not making the sappy moral comparison (Capitalism=bad, greedy, etc), but just noting that economic decisions may have social consequences. As a Christian, we are challenged to think of the whole, not simply our little part.

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By: Ken

Ken — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:56:55 +0000

“I like capitalism fine and I love Jesus, but even tangentially implying the two are related is dangerous. Christ is above all systems of government.”

Capitalism is not a system of government. It is primarily an economic theory that describes how markets work to produce wealth through a spontaneous ordering of transactions between producers, distributers, and consumers, where each person involved in a transaction makes necessary tradeoffs with others. Because the overall complexity of its many layered transactions is beyond the ken of any individual or panel of experts, attempts to regulate the overall results tend to distort, rather than correct perceived inequalities. This is as true of governmental intrusions into the marketplace (laws that punish fraud and make contracts enforceable do not alter the marketplace, but ensure the transparency and accountability that lubricate its machinery) as it is of prvate actors trying to monopolize power and information.

Markets are self-correcting as technology changes. The fur trade, railroads, steel mills, have first dominated and then receded as producers of vast wealth. The Hudson Bay’s monopoly on beaver pelts affords little advantage today.

Capitalism as a theory is descriptive. Governments that draw on its principles as prescriptive, produce the fewest distortions in economic activity, and provide the richest environments for human flourishing and personal liberty.

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By: Thorn

Thorn — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:17:43 +0000

Greed can occur in a socialistic market just as easily. What is to stop the government officials from being so, or manipulating it to their advantage?

Greed will occur under any market. Capitalism or the freer market, weeds it out. Greed has only been rewarded and sustained by our government’s socialistic response in bailouts, in which they helped create as well.

High leverage is always motivated by greed, but if you reward it, you have taught it nothing.

There is nothing wrong with making money, or investing in something or someone, but in doing so comes risk, and in doing so comes the understanding that you may not see a return.

Government should prosecute the criminals, allow the failures to fail, and allow the successes to succeed without penalties.

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By: READER

READER — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:30:56 +0000

Exactly, Madino, since all are corrupt, it makes sense to disperse power through individual decision making in the market instead of centralizing it in a few hands through government planning

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By: madino

madino — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:07:37 +0000

@Snoke, you could use the exact same Bible verses you quoted in support of Capitalism to endorse Communism.
Sorry, but “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is not a Christian principle. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” is.
It doesn’t matter what system it is, capitalism or something else, if it involves people then it will be flawed.

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By: John M.

John M. — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:32:22 +0000

Snoke, Just because “Christ is lord of all” doesn’t mean Christ has an opinion about everything. The teachings of Christ are about as relevant to what government I live under as they are relevant to what I name my cat or what brand of toilet paper I buy. Pretending that every little detail of my life or that of my nation has some kind of cosmic significance is not biblical, it is hubris. God does not love America better than other countries.

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By: snoke

snoke — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:29:27 +0000

@John M: how can you say that Christ is “above all systems of government”? That sounds like saying that Christ has nothing to do with government, a demarcation argument. Christ is lord of all, including governments.
Here are some biblical principles for governments:
“you shall not be partial to the poor or to the rich” (Ex 23:3,Lev 19:15) One law for all, not special laws that favor the poor. Some Christians only read half these verses, about not favoring the rich.
“you shall not covet your neighbor’s property” (Ex 20:17, Deut 5:21) Rich people are allowed to have things you don’t have. The biblical basis of capitalism.
“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal?” (Acts 5:4) Private property is a right: the community of Acts was voluntary, not compelled.
“he shall not acquire for himself excessive silver and gold” (Deut 17:17) A Christian principle is “absolute power corrupts absolutely”- putting ever more power in the hands of government is a recipe for tyranny, because people are sinful. The more handouts, the more power to those doing the handing out.
“He who does not work shall not eat” (2 Thess 3:10) There should be no reward for laziness.
This sounds a lot like capitalism to me! Call it what you will, Christ is not irrelevant to government.

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By: madino

madino — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:27:58 +0000

Reader, exactly! The motivation for looking after your health is not because of self-interest or self-love but because of wanting to please and honor God through respecting what is His. For followers of Christ, taking care of yourself and family is of equal importance to caring for others (love your neighbor as yourself). A distinguishing characteristic of Christians is love for God, and love for others. If the foundation or basis of capitalism is self-interest and self-love then that is simply not consistent with following Christ.

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By: READER

READER — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:45:47 +0000

good point, John

still, as this article http://online.worldmag.com/2009/09/15/capitalism-and-greed/ points out, sex (gift from God) and economic freedom (gift from the founders) are both good things that we can use as we choose – for good or evil

Madino, I find being a capitalist Christian the most natural thing in the world – denying self does not mean taking no care for self and family
God would not be happy if you make your health an idol but He would not like you to stop brushing your teeth

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