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Centers of the battle
We know why God loves cities. We also know why God hated Sodom.
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Sunday showdown: Both parties look to sway fence-sitters for this weekend's healthcare vote
Abortion debate: Pro-lifers differ on abortion provisions found in the healthcare bill
Ken Blackwell praises Sen. Tom Coburn's warning to Democrats changing their nay votes on healthcare. 
Good morning!
On this day in 1989: Communist East Germany threw open its borders, allowing citizens to travel freely to the West.
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back to top230 Comments to “Whirled Views 11.09”
I take it that should read: “On this day in 1989:” Indeed, what a great day it was!!!
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Copy and paste and not-yet-awake error. Corrected.
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Yes, a truly great and encouraging day for celebration. I still remember how hard it was to comprehend this history-changing event of something I’d grown up with as an accepted fact before Pres. Reagan.
Ironically, 11/9/1938 was “Kristallnacht” (”Night of Glass”) because thousands of windows were broken by Nazi thugs, a campaign of terror against Jews by the Third Reich.
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Et tu Mickey?
May i ask the Lord to bless everyones lives this beautiful fall day?
“Oh,taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him!” PS. 34:8 NKJV
I would like to suggest that believers on the Lord Jesus Christ need not sink below the heavenlies when responding to uncouth bloggers.
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Good morning.
On the Internet, no one can tell if you are couth or uncouth.
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Some people are too obsessed with words such as “nihilist” and “agnostic.”
This reminds me of a discussion about the word “feminist” on wmb a few years ago. I was surprised to learn that several participants who struck me as obvious feminists were horrified by the term. The problem was the definition. I define a feminist as a woman who develops her potential as a person as far as she can, and who does not men push her around. By that definition, Sarah Palin is a feminist.
Most people here define a feminist as a sexually promiscuous leftist who supports abortion. By that definition, obviously no participant of wmb is a feminist. However, all the feminists at wmb can call themselves palens, and then there is no problem.
(Palens are different than paleos. I think.)
So…I need new words to use for “nihilist” and “agnostic.” Words without so much connotation. Any suggestions?
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On the Internet, no one can use empiricism to prove nihilism is correct. I don’t walk into walls unless there is an apparent opening. I cannot prove that I will not run into the wall as I walk through this opening, for there may be very clean glass which prevents me from walking through what I perceive to be an opening.
Even Job admitted God goes by him sometimes without Job being aware of it. Even an agnostic/nihilist should from time to time open the Bible and see that some of his experiences are not uncommon to men and women of the faith, who were sometimes commanded to march around walls, who were sent down through a wall, who were brought out from behind prison walls, who built large walls for temples or Egyptians and who rebuilt walls around Jerusalem.
Even God’s chosen people interact with walls from time to time.
But how does the nihilist know what is proper to do when one encounters a wall? How does he know that walking into one is not beneficial? Perhaps this is the way a new evolutionary species gets started. In five billion years there will be evolutionary nihilists who can walk through walls. Just like four billion years ago there were wingless lumps of clumsy tree dwelling globs who kept falling from tree branches and eventually figured out how to fly. Never mind how they got into the trees in the first place or why they bothered going back up after they’d fallen.
But walking through or into walls has a moral component to it that I find the nihilist cannot judge with any sort of accuracy.
Good morning, to you Random.
OH
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How about “nihilist” or “agnostic”?
Perhaps there is an effort afoot to define oneself by something which can avoid concrete defininitions of reality and morality.
How about “furtively evasive critic of non-existent objective morality”
or agnihilosopher.
Perhaps the creativity of the agnostic/nihilist has run out of definitions by which he may define himself or has realized there is an inherent problem with identifying oneself by an objective, concrete reality with inherent moral connotations apart from his own definitions.
I do not know. Identity without morality is an unusual predicament.
OH
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Over the weekend, wmb was discussing health care in its usual enlightening fashion.
I am fighting off a case of the the flu. I have not been kissing swine.
To stay healthy, at least for the coming week:
1. Do not read or respond to any of my comments.
2. Do read comment #103 in U.S. House passes healthcare bill thread.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
[Caution: nudging and winking may be a violation of terms and conditions.]
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Good morning all! Apparently November 9th is not too late for a hurricane. I am glad this one Hurricane Ida is late in the season. My maternal grandmother was named Ida. Lord! That was one of the meanest women ever to walk the face of the earth! This one is tracking right towards me, but is losing power the closer it gets. It is a nice cool morning this morning, low humidity. They said it will make landfall some time tonight. I think we will get a lot of rain. Baby Girl dosn’t have school. Oh Joy! Don’t you think they would be safer at school, where there mama’s could get some work done? They should go to school today and be out tomorrow. Now we will have to make up days because they already had Fall Break to use their built in Hurricane
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Regarding walls.
It was ok for the Kool Aid man to rudely crash into them and offer rounds of sugary fruit flavored beverages.
Or was it?
A wrecking ball can certainly penetrate a wall with ease. When is it ok to do so? The wrecking ball cannot judge anymore than the nihilist if it is ok to bash through a wall with people on the other side of it or not for both the wrecking ball and the nihilist have no standards of objective morality outside their ironclad natures.
The Berlin Wall came down. Certainly there were people in positions of power who would’ve wanted to see it stay up. Others wanted it to come down. It is a good thing a nihilist did not attempt to arbitrate that situation.
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Some comment posters are too obsessed with other comment posters’ comments. Simon says, “Get a grip.” Simon says, “Talk to you later, perhaps after you have posted five more comments.” Or fifty. Simon says, “Watch carefully.” Actually, Simon says, “Take care of your actual students at the school where you teach.”
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The race to the bottom continues as it is apparent the resident nihilist does not quite know what to make of one like himself.
Why should anyone obey Simon’s imperatives? By what authority does Simon command the interant poster? These are moral conundrums for the nihilist.
Students do not arrive until 8 A.M. central time.
OH
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Hurricane Days. We are staying where we are. My next door neighbors have a generator built in to their house, they told me if need be we can run an extension cord from their house to my refridgerator/freezer.
To tie this all back in, my grandmother, Ida was part German. She was a fantastic cook. Sometimes when my grandfather would get mad at her, he would go on “light housekeeping”. They wouldn’t speak for several days and he wouldn’t eat anything “that woman” cooked, so her sister who lived next door would give him the left over corn bread and he would live off of cornbread and buttermilk for several days. He always wore Duckhead Overalls. The hammer loop is what I would hold on to whenever
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I went some place with him. Where ever we went usually involved ice cream.
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Perhaps the island dweller can come to Texas for a visit and we can have coffee sometime.
The nihilist critic would delight in taking you to the Stockyards to an excellent Mexican restaraunt. They say some of the peppers can knock out a cold or flu.
Have a good one Random.
OH
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6. When worked for Catholics I was told that feminist is okay, it’s radical feminists that are bad. Seriously, they debated that at the NCCB.
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KBells
Eve.
Radical feminist or merely feminist? Considering the fruit incident, of course. What say you?
OH
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Being pro-female is good, when it crosses into anti-male, then it’s bad.
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I like to tell the Baby Girl that boys have cooties until YOU are thirty.
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At least one Democratic political strategist has gotten a blunt warning from the White House to never appear on Fox News Channel
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-fox8-2009nov08,0,507227.story
Obama Administration to media:
“Put up that wall!”
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20
Apparently they can linger into your 40’s.
OH
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Serious question concerning a serious crime:
A woman in Long Island has been arrested for murdering her neighbors’ pets. Police found several negelected animals in the house and over 20 dead pets buried in her yard.
Apparently she forced her children to help torture and kill the animals.
A detail – she lost her husband in a car accident recently, and her neighbors all pulled together with potluck suppers and donations of clothes for the children, so it’s not like she was isolated.
Clearly, obviously, this woman is mentally ill. People who engage in animal cruelty and child abuse almost always are.
The question: should she be able to raise mental illness as a defense? Or should she be punished for the crimes as though she is sane?
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You’re the lawyer with all the expertise on law code, Thomas. You might be better off answering it yourself.
Why would you care what we think, anyway? Seems you’ve got us all figured out considering your comments yesterday.
OH
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Interesting that the MSM giants were celebrating the fall of the wall when they were some of the most vociferous anti-Reagan voices of the 80s, and it was Reagan’s policies that helped bring down the wall.
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Life’s too short to be cranky.
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Thomas1 I will respond to you. Yes. Obviously the woman is mentally ill. Surely, they courts will have her examined and place her in the proper mental facility. I am an animal lover myself. I believe people who hurt animals should be punished to the full extent of the law. That being said I am most concerned about the children she had living in the home with her and the damage that has been done to them. We HUMANS get all twitterpated when we hear of an animal being abused and have rallies and raise money to prevent animal cruelty but we don’t do a thing for the HUMANS that are being tortured and abused and killed.
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Kim, CPS is placing the children with concerned relatives, so they will get proper care. The mother did a good job of fooling a lot of people for a long time. None of the neighbors knew.
Animal cruelty recently became a felony in NY State.
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Amen Thomas1!
I’m with Kbells on the feminist thing.
On the left coast an artist was commisioned to do a piece using real chunks from the Berlin Wall. He let the graffitti on the original chunks stand for themselves, but was going to bookend it with large paintings of JFK and Reagan (the beginning and end of the Cold War). He was told there was not room for both and it was assumed he would ax Reagan. He is contemplating a no show since they curators neither understand his thesis nor believe in artistic freedom.
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Just waiting around for her to get ready. She says women have more to do than men. I suppose that’s so if you count caring for the plants.
So, I stopped in to see if anything is happening.
Nothing that can’t wait. See you later.
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#21: The godfather never breaks anyone,s legs.
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Thomas1, then as I stated she should be charged to the fullest extent of the law. But I believe that child abuse should be a felony offense as well. When they charge her with animal cruelty they need to charge her with child abuse as well, and they need to prosecute her to the fullest extent.
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Have a great time Chas.
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CHAS: have a good time.
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I agree with you, Kim, but the child abuse is a little harder to prove. Here’s a link to the story: http://www.examiner.com/x-27388-Long-Island-Crime-Examiner~y2009m11d8-Pets-Found-Buried-in-LI-Womans-Yard
Also of note – the conditions were reported to the DA by an animal rescue organization called Rescue Ink. More on these great (scary-looking!) guys doing great work here: http://www.rescueink.org/
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The problem is, hasn’t animal cruelty–specifically killing animals–been linked with a higher-than-average chance of moving on to other crimes that will eventually land a kid in prison? I thought it was one of the very big warning signs that a child has serious mental problems that could escalate.
That a mother would involve her children in such behavior is about five different red flags on this family.
Very sad.
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Chas, in spite of the fear that I may come off sounding like a “sexually promiscuous leftist who supports abortion,” (I did nto realize that is how “most” people on here define feminists)let me explain. We women take longer first because we have hair on our heads. Lots of it. Men soap, shampoo and shave. Women infuse, condition and exfoliate. Then we have to dry, curl or straighten, set, spray and whine about it. Men have three pairs of shoes, black, brown, tennies (maybe slippers). Women have to match not only the shade to the outfit, but the style as well. Heels can overdress you, flats can be too casual. Men can where kackis and a button up to a picnic or a busniness meeting. These are just a few examples why men are forever “waitin on a woman.” Be glad guys that I didn’t go into plucking, waxing or different kids of moisterizers.
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College Football results
This week, Scott Robinson picks up his virtual choice of my daughter’s Chocolate Chip Cookie-Brownies or a s’more. Ha got six of the seven games correct, only missing the Oklahoma-Nebraska result.
Congrats!
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Michelle – you are correct about it being a red flag.
As for me – there is no way in heck that I’d ever let my cats outside. Between FIV, careless drivers, and crazy people, it just isn’t safe. Indoor-only cats live an average of 7 years longer than their outdoor-dwelling brethren.
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37. I once worked for a millionaire who appeared to have owned only seven shirts. Three polos for summer in different colors, three long sleeve pullovers for winter in different colors and a light blue button down that he wore with a blue blazer and tie when he needed to “dress up”. He wore all of this with the same style khakis and the same pair of shoes. His wife on the other hand dressed very nice.
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ADIOS: So that was the problem with my wife! (Not the “sexually promiscuous leftist part… of course)
But I will have to wait until I see her in heaven to apologies for the steam that always came out of my ears waiting for her to be ready.
All she would do is smile and say “poor dear”.
Loved that woman!
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You are right Thomas, they are scary looking. Perhaps we can sic them on the child abusers as well.
Michelle, I think you are thinking of the sociopathic triad, bed wetting, animal cruely and fire.
Reading about Elvira and Roger’s wife, all I can say is Chloe is destined to drive some poor man mad. I can get all the way dressed in the time it takes her to shower!
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European socialism:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8349923.stm
Step on the brake! No, step on the gas! No, turn the wheel! No, turn the key! No, pull out your gun. You will be able to load and lock slowly and deliberately.
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Peter L,
I believe I’ll try your daughter’s virtual Chocolate Chip Cookie-Brownies. They should have me in a virtual sugar coma before lunch.
Thanks!
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Actually, Kim, animal cruelty is by itself a red flag in children. Children who torture animals go on to kill animals and then to kill people; it’s a known pathological cycle, and a huge red flag. (A little boy pulling wings off a fly isn’t the same thing, BTW.)
When I was doing foster care, I got called about the possibility of taking in a ten-year-old girl. It wasn’t clear yet whether I’d get her, but I was told her name, and I started praying for her. Days later my case worker called back and said the social worker had misstated her level of issues and they were too serious for our agency: that this child had killed small animals and broken a dog’s legs, and our agency isn’t equipped to handle children with that level of problems. Nor, of course, would I myself be, and having a dog, I’d never take in a child who was deliberately cruel to them. (As it was, Misten got kicked in the face several times by kids having temper tantrums, and I’d have to put her outside for her own protection. But that wasn’t children seeking her out to hurt her on purpose, that was kids kicking her because she was concerned about them and went right up to them, close enough to be kicked by a child who was lashing out at anyone within reach.)
I was actually a bit horrified that a social worker would knowingly downplay such serious issues just to get a child placed. Even if I didn’t have a dog, no way am I (a slender, single woman) prepared to deal with a child with that magnitude of problems. I simply couldn’t have helped her, and a child with those issues needs serious help. Placing her with me would have meant not caring what happened to me or my neighbors and friends, and not caring what happened to the child either. That’s gross negligence and worse.
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Ah, it’s a new day; perhaps a day with no disrespectful insults or name-calling ? Time will tell.
Chas, have a great trip, we’ll miss you.
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You are right Cheryl, any of the 3 would be a red flag. I think bedwetting can also be a sign of sexual molestation as well.
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Robert William “Willie” Pickton (born October 24, 1949) of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia is a Canadian pig farmer and serial killer convicted of the second-degree murders of six women. He is also charged in the deaths of an additional twenty women, many of them prostitutes and drug users from Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside. In December 2007 he was sentenced to life in prison, with no possibility of parole for 25 years – the longest sentence available under Canadian law for murder.
During the trial’s first day, January 22, 2007, the Crown stated he confessed to forty-nine murders to an undercover police officer posing as a cellmate. The Crown reported that Pickton told the officer that he wanted to kill another woman to make it an even 50, and that he was caught because he was “sloppy”. [Vancouver Sun]
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Authorities say Anthony Sowell lured women into his home in a busy neighborhood, killed them — most by strangulation — and scattered their remains throughout the inside and buried some in the backyard.
Such brazenness defies logic, but experts identify a narrow subcategory of serial killers, including the 1893 Chicago Fair killer, Dr. H.H. Holmes, and Milwaukee cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer, who hunt from home.
“These types are so rare that you can’t make a summary estimation as to why or what went wrong or anything,” said Robert Keppel, a national serial-killer expert who investigated serial killer Ted Bundy in Washington state in the 1970s.
“There’s just not a whole lot of these folks running around the world,” he said.
Sowell had the perfect lair.
His home and backyard — a burial site for five victims — were shielded by an empty home to the left and the windowless brick wall of a sausage company on the right.
Anytime the stench of decaying bodies blew over the street, neighbors blamed the meat processing next door.
[Associated Press]
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Meanwhile, it’s another Indian Summer day here in Michigan. Warm temperatures. Dry. A hazy, sun in the sky. The dog (see avatar) loved the weekend; I got to rake leaves. Again.
I’m feeling mellow and thankful. A day like today reminds me that even when you know what’s coming — the winter and all — you can still be thankful now.
Back to work.
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I’m trying to get Annie Oakley the cat acclimated to using the doggie door. So I’ll hold the flap open and she’ll usually put her front 2 paws outside, her back feet remaining in. This morning’s exercise was aborted when Tess & Cowboy spotted her from their positions near the far fence and began galloping toward her. It looked like the opening scene from Bonanza.
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Obama is not going to take part in the Celebration of a great President Speech about bring down the Berlin Wall. The question is why? Obama seems to find the time to go to Europe and Nato to give speeches the brings down our Country. I believe the different between Regan and Obama is, How they see our Nation and out Past. Regan saw us as a great light shining on the hill. That stood for freedom. Obama sass that great light as evil and dividing the nations. Why is this? It goes back to who is influenced Obama. Obama was influence by people like Rev. Wright. Any one who sit’s under someone for 20 years is influenced by that person. As Minster of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I would tell Mr. Obama that he needs to reexamine what he was taught by Rev. Wright and turn back to God.
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Kim, yes, bedwetting can be such a sign, but it can also be medical. I have a friend who adopted a baby at birth, and the child at ten is still not reliably dry at night, and has within the last couple years (age eight, possibly nine) had accidents during the day, at home, with full access to a bathroom. It’s an issue that didn’t start up one day because of trauma, but that never “stopped” happening when the child was old enough to have full control of her bladder. But there was likely some alcohol and maybe drug use by the birth mother, and they don’t know what all the issues are in regards to this child. But she seems not to have a good sense of when her bladder is full.
Arson is most definitely another danger sign. I actually lived immediately across the street in Chicago from kids who were either “headed this way” or just unsupervised enough to have fun with matches when they could. (The two-year-old sometimes leaned out the open second-story window, as an example of how unsupervised the children were. The nine-year-old boy was the one in the family who did best at watching the little ones; their mother was too busy with men to watch the kids well.) Anyway, their home burned (gutted completely) twice within a few years. (And there was possibly a third fire, less destructive, sometime in there.) The first time, I heard neighborhood rumor that it was children playing with matches, and the second time, I heard that adults thought it was faulty wiring, and I thought, no, it was likely the kids again. I really didn’t know, but I wasn’t terribly excited about that house being directly across the street from mine! But I was there for ministry reasons, not for pleasure, and did have the opportunity to minister some to some of the children in that home, especially that oldest boy, so I let God “worry about” the risk, and my house never burned down.
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We’re continuing our sermon series at church on God’s law and have now spent a couple weeks on the 6th Commandment — Thou shall not murder.
As Jesus pointed out, our very words and thoughts can make us all guilty of this one. But it’s more than a “negative” command — its positive aspect is that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and to love our enemy.
In the discussion afterward, the issue came up of “feelings” — are we hypocritical if we really just can’t stand someone but then outwardly behave lovingly toward him? Not at all. We are to cater to the spirit, not the flesh.
There is a war raging within us between spirit and flesh, so it often becomes a decision that needs to be made that is contrary to my “feelings.”
We are to “put on” Christ, which I think is a wonderful way to describe it.
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Good morning, one and all. And a good morning it is! Waiting for the two inspectors. Waiting for brother. Waiting for chores to be done so the wood gatherers can head out. Then back to choir and Nimipuu class. And then out to dinner at the home of friends. Another busy day in the neighborhood. Glad the dogs are outdoor dogs.
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I’m not cranky, Thomas. I just sort of wonder if you thought what you thought about many of us yesterday on a different thread why you’d want our opinon on anything particularly, that’s really all. Not a crankiness or anything that I know of.
OH
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Folks I wrote this a while back in a debate on Peacemakers and the Beatitudes, I hope and pray you folks will be blessed by it,
From the Pastor Desk: Peacemakers and the Beatitudes
The past few days there has been a discussion on Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers.” and I have been wondering about a couple of things. Does this passage mean someone who wants to bring peace to the world through stopping wars or does it mean someone who brings the Gospel of Jesus Christ to someone that is troubled? In order to answer this question, we need to go back to the beginning of the Beatitudes to get an understanding of what Jesus was saying and then move forward. The second thing I have been wondering about is “Are the Beatitudes concerned with social issues or spiritual issues including what is in a person hear?”
Let’s start with Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for there is the kingdom of Heaven.” The key part is “Poor in Spirit” which refers to a person’s spiritual condition and the person recognizes that they are without God in their life. This does not refer to the economic class of a person but the spiritual condition in relationship to God. The person who is “poor in spirit” has the Kingdom of Heaven because they have humbled themselves to God.
Matthew 5:4 “Blessed are those who mourn”, this is the person who understands they are “poor in spirit” and responds by crying out to God for help. The ending portion of the scripture states,” For they will be comforted”, which give you an idea about God will comfort them. Some try to use this passage to refer to someone who is in mourning over some thing lost. It is not about mourning something lost in the physical realm but in the spiritual. It is the next step in someone’s relationship with God.
Matthew 5:5 “Blessed are the meek”, this is the person who after crying out to God and being comforted comes to a realization how timid they are without God in their life. The result of this is God who changes us and our desires. Now in order for this to be about a social issue, the idea of meek must be someone who is weak and unable to accomplish anything.
Matthew 5:6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness”
When God changes a person’s life, He gives the person a new desire. “Hunger and thirst for righteousness” is the new desire. What does this mean? It is a hunger and thirst for a closer relationship with God, a deeper desire to understand the Word of God and to tell others what God has done for us. I will be honest here, I do not have any idea of what this could stand for in a social issue.
Matthew 5:7 “Blessed are the merciful” Since God has shown us mercy (verses 5:3 to 5:6), we are to show mercy to others in the same way God has shown us mercy. This mercy is to be freely given without expecting anything in return. Why? God has done the same for us. He has shown us mercy even though we deserved much worse.
Matthew 5:8 “Bless are the pure in heart” Once God takes a hold of one’s heart, our desires start to change and we become pure in the eyes of God. Only God can change our heart from it evil desires to a pure heart. NO social agenda can change a man heart from its evil desire to a pure heart. Only God can do that.
This brings us to the meaning of being a peacemaker. Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God.” The peacemaker in this passage of scripture is referring to the persons who take what God has done for them and share it with those that do not have this peace. For peace to come to mankind there must be peace in one’s heart with God. Some want to take this passage of scripture and interpret peacemaker to mean as those persons who wants stop all wars and conflict through political or legal means. They have even gone so far to apply this title to non-Christians. In order to do this you must disregard Matthew 5:3 through 5:8, you must believe all of these passage deal with social groups and not spiritual progress in one’s heart.
If you believe that Matthew 5:3 to 5:8 is a progression of one’s relationship with God then this idea of a “peacemaker” is person who wants to show God’s love and peace to the person whose life is in conflict and who is “poor in spirit”. The scripture passage illustrates that a growing relationship with God is the first priority in order for the rest of what Christ said be successful One’s response will determine how one will grow and how one will share the truth of God’s mercy to a world that is in internal conflict.
Matthew 5:10-12 “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness sake for there is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
Now I will let you the reader decide about this issue of “peacemaker” and the Beatitudes. Are they about a person growing relationship with God or are they about socially agendas? Which one did Jesus mean? I can tell you for me and my studies, the scripture termed as “The Beatitudes” must be about a growing relationship with God. I would love to hear what your think about this.
May God bless you, the readers.
Pastor Roy
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Cheryl’s post reminded me of some thoughts I had this Sunday on Orphan Sunday. There was a great deal of emphasis on Foster care and adoptions of older children. We also get a lot of flack from the pro abortion folks who say we haven’t done enough. Though, I do believe there are a lot of people who could do this but who have not, but we also need to remember that not everyone is capable or qualified. When we had become discouraged about finding a baby to adopt I began to look into adopting an older child. I soon concluded that I was not the best person to try to raise a troubled fifteen year old who could over power me. I was in my mid 40’s at the time. I loved the story in World Mag about the young man adopted at fifteen who became a great football player, but these people were wealthy and able to afforded tutors and counselors. My SS teacher said one church had 165 volunteers for 150 foster children. That is great, I just hope no one gets in over their head and makes matters worse.
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Pastor Roy – I think that attempts to politicize the Bible usually end in failure.
That said, loving my neighbor as myself usually guides my voting decisions.
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A funny but serious insight to Old Hickory’s “cooties” which happened several weeks ago.
As some of you may know, OH is a bachelor who “doesn’t look” and remains “contented” in his singleness all the while petitioning my heavenly Father for one of His daughters if it be His will, etc. etc.
Last month, I’d atteneded a concert of an amazing singing choir, Gloriea Dei Cantores – singers to the glory of God. They sing church music spanning two thousand years. It’s all vocal and truly stunning. Made me cry a few times.
Anyhow, after the concert the audience had a chance to mingle with the choir members and have “cake and punch”.
So as I was enjoying my carbs, I saw one of the singers standing by herself. My heart began to pound. “I should talk to her.”
So, disobeying every fiber in my being that told me I ought not, I did. Mind you this is not a habit of mine.
The conversation went remarkably well. We hit it off and had much in common. I was sort of beaming.
Until I was informed that she, like the rest of the choir, were brothers and sisters of a Benedictine order in Massachsetts.
I had been talking to a nun.
So, OH went home a bit chopfallen and slightly embarrassed, even considering the monastic life myself.
Just thought that might give you all a chuckle at my expense today.
OH
It is all absolutely true. I promise.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 11:23 AM
Pastor Roy – I think that attempts to politicize the Bible usually end in failure.
That said, loving my neighbor as myself usually guides my voting decisions
—
But if you are voting for sin, how does the effect your relationship with Christ?
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“The question: should she be able to raise mental illness as a defense? Or should she be punished for the crimes as though she is sane?”
Thomas1, several years ago (so I can’t source the information), I read about some psychiatrists who were vehemently opposed to insanity defenses, on the grounds that the failure to face the consequences for one’s actions served no thereapeutic purpose. Although mental illness might lead to bizarre ideation, there is still a moral dimension to to actions, and accountabilty for one’s actions is a necessary ingredient for cultivating mental health.
I might dispute a blanket endorsement of their views in the case of a complete break with reality, for example if the killer genuinely believed they were operating a video game, or were fighting Genghis Khan’s hordes, but in general, I think, absent such a complete phsychotic break, one would have to be crazy
to thing insanity pleas should offer even partial absolution.
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Pastor Roy: I distinguish the difference between peacemakers and peackeepers thusly:
Peacemakeing = helping to reconcile people and the God who loved them and sent Jesus for them.
Peacekeeping = “we will have peace even if we have to kill you to have it”
One Godly, the other from satan.
I am aware that there are exceptions.
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roger patno 11.09.09 AT 11:33 AM
Pastor Roy: I distinguish the difference between peacemakers and peackeepers thusly:
Peacemakeing = helping to reconcile people and the God who loved them and sent Jesus for them.
Peacekeeping = “we will have peace even if we have to kill you to have it”
One Godly, the other from satan.
I am aware that there are exceptions
—
The problem in some churches today and some Christian today can not seprate beteen a Peacemakeing and a Peacekeeping
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OH, are you sure she wasn’t a lay sister. Some only take temporary vows and can marry. Don’t want give you false hope though.
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Too funny, OH!
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OH: A little more practice. A little more discernment. And who knows?
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How, precisely, can one “vote for sin”?
Isn’t sin, by definition, personal conduct?
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OH (#60),
Enjoyed your story; sorry about the ending.
How about those Bucks last Saturday? Looks like we’re Pasadena bound! I never realized you were a Buckeye fan until I read some of your posts from the last few days. You may have stated it earlier, but if you did, I didn’t pick up on it.
Anyway, I now know that your ‘OH’ sign-off is actually a shout-out.
IO!
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KBells
She was the real dedicated sort. Vows of celebacy, poverty and place. I’d never heard of a vow of remaining in one location for the rest of one’s life, but I suppose if you are going to be in a monastery it makes sense.
Hindsight, I would’ve liked to have had more time and delved a bit into the Reformation, but alas!
Roger. Discernment when it comes to the ladies is not my forte’. You see what happens?
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NOW THERE YOU GO SCOTT ROBINSON! Some REAL thread dialogue! Go Bucks!
But alas if they get an SEC match up, I fear we are doomed.
Tis ok about the ending. I thought that it will make for a funny story if ever I do get married.
“Honey, aren’t you glad she was a nun?”
OH
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kbells: Just as there are people not qualified to be foster parents there are those who are not qualified to be parents and who know it. And they do get pregnant. They know that if they do have a child, things are likely to go very very wrong for that child.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 11:39 AM
How, precisely, can one “vote for sin”?
Isn’t sin, by definition, personal conduct?
——
Sin is define by personal conduct,. When someone is support that sinful personal conduct for other. Is he not then support sin?
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MICKEY: On this day in 1989: Communist East Germany threw open its borders, allowing citizens to travel freely to the West.
FRANK: How providential that I just recently viewed for the first time the excellent film “The Lives of Others.” Although set in the waning days of East Germany, the story is primarily about human transformation. Highly recommended. Watch it online at http://www.youtube.com/user/TheStasi55#p/c/1BB869F6E4D4BD56
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All the potential projectiles and the gas grill are in the garage. I made a gallon of tea. I am ready for the hurricane.
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Arcadia, someone who is that sure he / she isn’t qualified to be a parent shouldn’t marry. Getting pregnant really isn’t an “accident”; it’s a major part of the purpose of sex.
Old Hickory, yes, that’s a funny story. But you know what, it still was good that you had the courage to talk with her, and communicated well. Next time the lady probably won’t be a nun (though she might be married) . . . but you’ve had “practice” and you know you can do it. (Spoken as someone who needs “practice” communicating with single members of the opposite sex. Married men I can deal with–they’re “taken,” no pressure. Single men might get the wrong idea if I’m friendly. It’s his job to make the first move, not mine, so I’m sometimes overly conscious about not flirting.)
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I just found out from my doctor that I have full-blown diabetes from the injury to my pancreas last year. For some reason, this is quite a shock to me.
Anyone else dealing with this who would like to give me some advice?
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Batten down the hatches, KIM;I’ll be thinking about you. When’s it suppose to hit, anyway?
THOMAS, sin manifests itself in more than conduct. Jesus addressed the issue of the heart in Matt. 5. Lust in the heart was the same as the act of adultery. Hatred equates to murder.
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MOMMY, does that mean you’re completely insulin dependent?
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Update on my prayer request for 3rd grader Justin who was hospitalized last week with an influenza-like illness complicated by a secondary bronchial infection. He’s still in ICU and stable. We pray God’s will that he be restored to health and that his parents and sister (7th garade) are encouraged. Thank you so much.
A beautiful and busy day again here delays commenting as much as I’d like, but keeping you all in mind.
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P.S. – The Senate IS in session today and individual senators may bring up any topic of their choosing, in addition to considering the Military Construction and Veterans Affairs Appropriations bill.
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Deet,
He said to start monitoring twice a day, eliminate sugar from my diet, and come back in for blood work in about a month. Then he’ll tell me what to do next.
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Mommy, my dad lived with diabetes the last 10 or 15 years of his life…he lied to me about when it started. He was angry he couldn’t eat the things he wanted and as much as he wanted. Follow your doctor’s advice, read up on it and try to find a sensible meal plan. I was amazed at how much my dad learned from the nutrition classes the doctor sent him to. I remember once we went out for my birthday and he ordered onion rings and peeled the batter off of them. Little things add up. You will have to experiment with artificial sweetners, some taste differently to different people. I can’t tell Splenda from real sugar, but I have a friend who says it has a bitter taste. I believe TRS has an insulin dependent child and I think Random has bee
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been told to start monitoring his blood sugar. I suggested Cinnamon tablets to him because I know someone who is taking it and says it helps with her diabetes but Random did more research and said it didn’t make a difference. Good luck
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Hurricane Ida is supposed to make landfall sometime over into Tuesday morning. It is sprinkling. I think by the time it hits land it is only going to be a tropical storm but it is bringing a lot of water with it and they are talking flooding and such. The scary part —KBELLS ARE YOU LISTENING— is when it gets further ashore and spins off tornado’s. Now THAT is the weirdest sound on earth and alwasy makes me wonder how they described the sound before trains were invented. Perhaps that is where a lot of BOOOOO WHOOOOOOOO ghost stories started.
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Thanks
Eight Recovery Principles based on the BEATITUDES
by Rick Warren
1. Realize I’m not God; I admit that I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and my life is unmanageable.
”Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor.” Matthew 5:3
2. Earnestly believe that God exists, that I matter to Him, and that He has the power to help me recover.
”Happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” Matthew 5:4
3. Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ’s care and control.
”Happy are the meek.“ Matthew 5:5
4. Openly examine and confess my faults to God, to myself and to another person whom I trust.
“Happy are the pure in heart.” Matthew 5:8
5. Voluntarily submit to any and all changes God wants to make in my life.
“Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires.” Matthew 5:6
6. Evaluate all my relationships, offer forgiveness to those who have hurt me and make amends for harm I’ve done to others when possible, except when doing so would harm them or others.
“Happy are the merciful” Matthew 5:7 “Happy are the peacemakers” Matthew 5:9
7. Reserve a daily time with God for self-examination, Bible reading, and prayer in order to know God and His work for my life and gain the power to follow His will.
8. Yield myself to be used by God to bring this good news to others, both by my example and by my words.
“Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires.”
Matthew 5:10
Pastor Roy for you post on the Beattitudes. I have been using them a lot lately…
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Roger, Obviously #6 is causing me some difficulty.
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Frank (74): I recently saw The Lives of Others as well. Excellent story, and it provides a true picture of what life was like in the former East German State.
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I just heard a report that Obama Justices department, knew about the Major who killed our troops a few months ago and did nothing about it. Has anyone else heard anything about this? If it is true, can the family remember of those who were killed bring a lawsuit against Obama for failure to protect their love ones?
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Kim – Pastor Roy for you post on the Beattitudes. I have been using them a lot lately…
—
I have been also using them.
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Hang in there with that storm, Kim. We only get earthquakes in Southern California, but the bad thing about those is there’s no real warning.
Laws that codify behavior that is sinful — such as abortion — can put people in the position of “voting for sin,” though I would not phrase it exactly that way. But when we do that, we are opening the doors and telling others that this is OK. It becomes very easy for many to be led down paths (because it’s “legal”) and become confused about the truth of whether something is right or wrong.
Just as individuals are accountable ultimately to God, so are nations.
Mommy, so sorry about the diabetes. I have an older friend from the dog park who has been diabetic for a number of years, a retired schoolteacher, and she is always joking about how her doctors tell her she’s the “perfect” diabetes patient — she attends all the educational seminars at the local hospital, is very rigid about her diet and exercise schedule (she belongs to the Y), and she never misses appointments or checkups. I think the key to diabetes is serious and consistent management, and when that’s followed it can be controlled.
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And I’d add that voting in a way that permits things such as abortion is voting in a way that is not loving your neighbor. Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on the greatest commandment of loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. That commandment is based on the 10 Commandments, which are in turn summaries of many other commandments of God.
Jesus taught, as someone rightly pointed out earlier, that sin begins within — in our attitudes and thoughts, which then become words and then actions (and then laws embraced by entire governments?). But it is all disobeying God, so our thoughts and attitudes already condemn all of us.
That’s why any study of God’s law by necessity must drive us even more to Christ as we realize how impossible it is for us to perfectly keep the law.
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72. Arcadia, that is what adoption is for. There are lot more people who are qualified and willing take a newborn baby and raise it in a loving home than there are people who can turn a child around who has lived in years of abuse and neglect.
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Kim, we have the tornado drill down and we live about a block from the siren. I remember watching a train pass once and saying to my husband, “Man, it sounds just like a tornado.”
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KIM @ 87: Yes, but I sense you are on the right path in your determination to deal with it. And that means that you will have the victory. PTL.
It would be good if we all remembered you in our daily prayers.
Blessings to you.
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Donna J – if we opted for legislation that eliminated all sin from American life, we’d live in a totalitarian state. I’m sure no one here wants that.
I’m not pro-abortion. I certainly don’t want to pay for it. But I’m also not in favor of controlling personal choices made by others, when they have to live with the consequenses of them and I don’t.
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No law can or would eliminate all sin. But all laws are based on someone’s morality.
I’m saying that we as voters — and our legislators — should be grounded and rooted in promoting ideals and laws that will bring about the common good; our laws and decisions should not become stumbling blocks, making it easier for our neighbors to fall into sin. I think our democratic nation has generally done a good job of that. Up to now. Time will tell about the future.
That said, people fall into sin no matter what the laws say.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 1:24 PM
Donna J – if we opted for legislation that eliminated all sin from American life, we’d live in a totalitarian state. I’m sure no one here wants that.
I’m not pro-abortion. I certainly don’t want to pay for it. But I’m also not in favor of controlling personal choices made by others, when they have to live with the consequenses of them and I don’t.
—-
Thomas – but as Christian we are to stand up for the Word of God, not just with our words but our actions. An one of the best actions we have in this nation (at this moment) it the act to vote on issues.
If I believe that the GLBT Community life style is a sin, why should I vote for it or vote for someone who will promote it?
If I believe that killing of the unborn is wrong and a sin, why should I vote for it or vote for someone who will promote it?
If you vote for GLBT Community life style or killing of the unborn, are you not voting against your faith?
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Question – If it is proven that the Major who killed our soldiers did it, with the purposes of support our enemies. Can he be charge with treason?
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THOMAS, no one sins in a vacuum. And “personal choices” aren’t made in a vacuum either. You say you don’t have to live with the consequences of other people’s personal choices, but you do.
There’s all sorts of examples in the headlines everyday that give ample proof that the choices people make affect the people around them. If someone decided to steal your car for a drug habit or for fun, you’d have to deal with their choice, wouldn’t you? Don’t we all bear the burden of fraud and embezzlement whether we’re talking the insurance industry, medicine or Wall Street?
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Pastor Roy, we don’t live in a theocracy, and you should be glad of that fact. You should vote your conscience, as we all should.
But rights in our society are not determined by the Bible – equal protection under the law applies to all citizens, not just Christian ones.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 1:58 PM
Pastor Roy, we don’t live in a theocracy, and you should be glad of that fact. You should vote your conscience, as we all should.
But rights in our society are not determined by the Bible – equal protection under the law applies to all citizens, not just Christian ones.
—
I am not talking about a theocracy. I am talking about a Christian being obedience to God and His Word.
So Thomas, as a Christian, who should we obey God and His Word or society views?
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Mommy,
Your doctor makes me mad. Really.
My son is an Insulin dependent diabetic, and I am a Type II diabetic.
First off, “avoiding sugar” is just bad advice. There is so much more to it.
It is about Carbohydrates, and about the fact that your body converts those to sugar just as “sugary” as sugar. Even straight protein will raise your blood sugar a very small amount.
But, you need to start to count carbs. And, yes, if your pancreas is damaged, you may well need Insulin. (Although, if it still works a little, it depends. However, I see it as likely.)
1) You really need to see an Endocrinologist. They are specialists in diabetes. Some, SOME regular doctors can handle it, but many are simply unqualified. Your doctor’s statement about just “avoiding sugar” tells me that you need to see an Endocrinologist. Really. This is important. Ask for a referral.
2) I highly recommend these Yahoo groups:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/alldiabeticinternational/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/diabetes/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Type-2-Diabetes/
The last is for Type II diabetes (which you are technically not), but it is a very good group anyway.
3) I recommend the following books:
*Diabetes for Dummies* (Please don’t be insulted!)
*Type 2 Diabetes* by Gretchen Becker (no, not everything will apply to you as you will be classified as a Type 1 or a Type 1/Type 2 mix (although you’re really something different than either), but she is a very good, comforting author.)
*The Diabetes Solution* by Richard Berstein (this one is controversial, and you are unlikely to be able to follow his advice completely — nor would your endocrinologist recommend it — but this guy has lived with Type 1 for 70 years, and is beyond healthy still. So, I found at least some of what he has to say very helpful, and definitely worth looking at things from another perspective.)
#1 though. GET AN ENDOCRINOLOGIST. You can move back to just having your regular doctor monitor you once you have enough knowledge on your own to take or leave his advice.
And, yes, you absolutely need to be monitoring your blood before and after you eat.
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I suppose Lutherans think their God is Lutheran and would therefore obey a Lutheran version of God and His Word, while Catholics would look to Rome for guidance in how best to obey a Catholic God and His Word….
The point, Pastor Roy, is that faith is a deeply personal matter that every individual must reconcile within himself. Running about asserting that you know how Jesus would want you to vote on a candidate or issue is fraught with peril.
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#57 Pastor Roy,
Thanks for that excellent post.
I have never thought of the Beatitudes as embodying a social agenda of any kind. Although, I do think that as individuals allow God to do His work in them, it will make a difference in the way we view social problems. But anyone who says the government must set up a program to feed the poor because God says “blessed are the merciful” is taking what may be a legitimate individual lesson from God to them, and trying to force feed it to everyone. Learning to be merciful will lead us to do things, perhaps even set up a soup kitchen or food pantry or a job training program, but I don’t think those lessons to be found in the Beatitudes are to be ‘enforced’ governmentally.
However, I do think some scriptures provide insight into what can make a good government. For example, I have always thought of the OT concept of jubilee as somewhat of a precursor to our concept of bankruptcy. We can see that God provided that debts should not go on forever lest all the people eventually be enslaved. And some of the proscriptions against unjust usury show that there is a just way to do business and an oppressive way. It is the role of government to provide the law/regulations that generally promote just living, (though it certainly cannot prevent all injustice—nor is it supposed to). I don’t think there is necessarily a one-to-one correspondence for all of these scriptural concepts, but they are informative. And I think they say something about the nature of God.
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And, Mommy, if you have insurance, they should be willing to pay for you to go to a dietitian who specializes in diabetic meal plans for at least a couple of training sessions.
Mind you, we only went to one, because I am the type of person who researches, researches, researches. I probably have 10 books on diabetes, and joined all the above Yahoo groups, and read about it online to boot. So, we found the drive to be unnecessary for us, since I had learned much of what I needed to know from 1) the hospital dietitian (my son was hospitalized) and 2) my own research.
But, at least one class wouldn’t hurt, and you are owed it under most plans.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 2:19 PM
I suppose Lutherans think their God is Lutheran and would therefore obey a Lutheran version of God and His Word, while Catholics would look to Rome for guidance in how best to obey a Catholic God and His Word….
The point, Pastor Roy, is that faith is a deeply personal matter that every individual must reconcile within himself. Running about asserting that you know how Jesus would want you to vote on a candidate or issue is fraught with peril.
—
So you are saying then Christian are to obey society views not God and His Word?
Thomas how do you handle the following versus of God’s Word
“Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such thinks are deserving of death, (Thomas, Paul is talking spiritual death not physical death) not only do the same BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.” Romans 1:32
Does not voting for sinful behavior fall under “BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.”
A Christian Faith is more then a “deeply personal matter “. Christian Faith effect our world views and our outward actions. (Voting in an outward action). If you believe you Christian Faith is just a “deeply personal matter “. I would encourage you to reexamine what is being taught to you in the Church you are going to. An start to reread God’s Word.
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“I’m not pro-abortion. I certainly don’t want to pay for it. But I’m also not in favor of controlling personal choices made by others, when they have to live with the consequenses of them and I don’t.”
In the case of abortion, the baby doesn’t get to live, consequences or not. All actions involve some measure of personal choice; all such choices are not immune to legal penalty. The choice to steal, or rob, or commit murder is equally personal, and often private. The significant factor is never whether a choice is personal, but whether in a civilized soicety, it is moral and should be permissible.
“equal protection under the law applies to all citizens, not just Christian ones.”
But not to children still in the womb, evidently.
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Pastor Roy, you’ve missed the point.
You seem to be under the illusion that there is only one form of Christianity. There are in fact many. Some of them view certain things in our society as sinful and some do not. In any case, I’m a lot more concerned with my own spiritual state than I am with legislating sin out of others’ way.
I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 2:37 PM
Pastor Roy, you’ve missed the point.
You seem to be under the illusion that there is only one form of Christianity. There are in fact many. Some of them view certain things in our society as sinful and some do not. In any case, I’m a lot more concerned with my own spiritual state than I am with legislating sin out of others’ way.
I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others.
—–
You seem to be under the illusion that there is only one form of Christianity. ” Please show me in God’s Word where there is other
form of Christianity?
“In any case, I’m a lot more concerned with my own spiritual state than I am with legislating sin out of others’ way.” – So God will not hold you accountability for your voting record?
“I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others. ” It is not an obsessive it is putting your Christian Faith to work. In our Nation case voting is a way we can impact our Nation.
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Thomas how do you handle the following versus of God’s Word
“Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such thinks are deserving of death, (Thomas, Paul is talking spiritual death not physical death) not only do the same BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.” Romans 1:32
Does not voting for sinful behavior fall under “BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM
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“I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others. ” It is not an obsessive it is putting your Christian Faith to work. In our Nation case voting is a way we can impact our Nation.
I wonder what you’ll do when Muslims outnumber Christians in America and start putting their Muslim Faith to work.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 2:51 PM
“I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others. ” It is not an obsessive it is putting your Christian Faith to work. In our Nation case voting is a way we can impact our Nation.
I wonder what you’ll do when Muslims outnumber Christians in America and start putting their Muslim Faith to work.
——
So you are agains Christian who are putting their Faith to work in voting?
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I think everyone should vote their conscience, and it is a civic responsibility to be well-informed on the issues.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 3:02 PM
I think everyone should vote their conscience, and it is a civic responsibility to be well-informed on the issues.
—-
Even if it goes against your Christian Faith?
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Thomas1 – I don’t think we really want to control others’ personal lives, especially since we know that one cannot truly control another.
And when we do speak out against sinful lifestyles, there is more than “trying to control” or being judgmental” involved. We know that certain choices begin to destroy a person from the inside. In the case of abortion, many post-abortive women deal with some very difficult emotional issues, probably for the rest of their lives, & often physical problems as well.
A friend of mine had an abortion almost 30 years ago. She exhibits almost all of the symptoms of post-abortive emotional disturbance (or whatever it is called) – severe over-eating issues, depression, substance abuse (though not anymore), & I forgot what else. But if anyone were to point this out to her, she would vehemently deny it had anything to do with the abortion.
And years of going to counseling on & off have not helped. I believe that is because she has not dealt with the real issue (the abortion).
My lovely niece is on her 4th boyfriend/lover since losing her virginity only about 3 years ago. None of my business, perhaps, but my heart aches for this beautiful & bright young lady who keeps giving a part of herself away to any guy she dates. (That is what is not only accepted these days, but expected.) It is very likely that this behavior will have consequences for her down the road.
I’ve heard & read stories of young people who have lived this “sleep with whomever you’re dating” lifestyle who now feel that sex has lost any meaning or feeling for them – they are emotionally numb.
So then, our concern with “morality” is not merely to get people to live “our way”, but to point out that God’s way is truly in our best interest, & following His ways can keep us from a lot of heartache & pain (emotionally & physically).
It is out of love that we sound the warning alarms, & are distressed when we see so many walking right into the storm.
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TRS,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for the information. It is a great start for me, as I have no experience with diabetes in my family. BTW, please don’t be too mad at my doctor. When he sent me the results of the bloodwork in the mail, his message was to make an appointment and see him in the office. I called him this morning to get the “cliff notes” version and it was a short conversation. He did say that it was more complciated than could be discussed over the phone and to see him in his office. He may well recommend a specialist. Thanks again!
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Thomas,
You’re failing to understand. Your morality forms your world view. You vote based on your world view. For the Christian, his or her world view is based on the Bible. It doesn’t matter if someone else interprets the Bible differently, for THAT PERSON the way they vote is informed by THEIR world view which is formed from THEIR understanding of the Bible.
A Christian votes based on his or her world view AS DOES EVERY OTHER PERSON. So, the Christian should be (unless he or she is a complete hypocrite) voting based on their moral understanding, which should be based on the Bible.
Naturally, a Muslim votes on his/her world view, as does the atheist, the Buddhist and every other person.
So, if you are a Christian, you should be voting based on your world view. And, such world view should be Biblically informed.
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Folks,
ABC just report that Major tried to contact our enemies a few months ago.
This man needs to be charged with treason? As well as murder and hate crime.
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I just got a call from the school board. There will be no school tomorrow, Tuesday, November 10. There will be no school on Wednesday November 11th in celebration of Veterans Day. Normal classes will resume on Thursday. Luckily I work from home.
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Mommy,
I will let up a bit on your doctor.
Just one of the things that we have found is that it is extremely important for you to become educated. As with anything else, there are differences of opinion on what is best, and, right now, diabetes treatment is slowly transitioning back from a “low fat, relatively high carb” diet to the more old-fashioned (but worked better) “low carb, reasonably low fat” diet.
Most diabetics will tell you that they feel better on low-carb (NOT no-carb) diets. But, the dietitians and all are only slowly catching up to this.
My son (on the advice of his endocrinologist) counts carbs and injects Insulin based on the number of carbs he plans to eat. He was given a number to shoot for in each meal. However, we chose to (generally) shoot for a lower number, because he feels better.
I also feel better on a lower carb diet.
However, this is a personal thing. IMO, you will want to start with doing whatever your doctor (preferably an endocrinologist) tells you. Then, while following that, you will want to heavily educate yourself. At that point, you may decide to tweak what you’ve been told a bit to fit YOU. (Another thing you quickly learn is that not all diabetics are created equal, and some things work for one that do not for another based on their bodies.)
For example, my son and I can eat Dreamfields pasta. It is a low carb pasta that allows SOME diabetics to eat spaghetti or macaroni and cheese in moderation (otherwise, most diabetics cannot eat pasta dishes…the carbs send their blood sugar through the roof.)
But, some people cannot eat Dreamfields pasta. It either causes them to have bowel issues, or it still sends their blood sugar high. You can only decide this by trying it!
http://www.dreamfieldsfoods.com/
I shouldn’t clog this list with too much diabetes stuff, so, if you just want to talk or ask questions, feel free to email me off list. trs2and3@yahoo.com .
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TRS @ 118: Well stated. Be encouraged.
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TRS – I understand just fine, and I agree with you.
Pastor Roy is presenting “Christians” as a monolith, and I suspect that he thinks that Christians who do not subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Bible aren’t Christian, exactly. (He’ll correct me if I’m incorrect.)
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 3:38 PM
TRS – I understand just fine, and I agree with you.
Pastor Roy is presenting “Christians” as a monolith, and I suspect that he thinks that Christians who do not subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Bible aren’t Christian, exactly. (He’ll correct me if I’m incorrect.)
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Thomas – What does God’s Word said about it?
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TRS it is my underestanding that all of us could benefit from following the diabetic guidelines. I am on my way out right now to buy a bottle of soda. Since it is a hurricane and I don’t usually buy Coke’s I thought the Baby Girl could have a treat. My back yard is alread holding water.
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Pastor Roy, I am confident that the military, FBI and every agency investigating Hasan’s rampage and his motives will do it thoroughly for a comprehensive analysis. We simply have to be patient while they do their work. Casey is already aware of the criticism of his statements on jeopardizing diversity in the army being almost worse than the lives lost. Rumors and presuppositions will be all over the media – on both sides. It will be worse if the investigation appears rushed to a forgone conclusion. Don’t you think?
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Pastor Roy, we disagree about what “God’s Word” does and does not say. Many people have similar disagreements and the response is to worship with like-minded people. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity.
I don’t recall a particualr Bible verse that requires a literal interpretation. You are far more likely to have such a verse to hand.
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Nana 11.09.09 AT 3:45 PM
Pastor Roy, I am confident that the military, FBI and every agency investigating Hasan’s rampage and his motives will do it thoroughly for a comprehensive analysis. We simply have to be patient while they do their work. Casey is already aware of the criticism of his statements on jeopardizing diversity in the army being almost worse than the lives lost. Rumors and presuppositions will be all over the media – on both sides. It will be worse if the investigation appears rushed to a forgone conclusion. Don’t you think?
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I served with Case, he is a good soldier
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So NJLawyer didn’t get banned after the dust-up with Jon Rowe a while back, but what about Jon? Has anyone seen him posting since then?
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 3:47 PM
Pastor Roy, we disagree about what “God’s Word” does and does not say. Many people have similar disagreements and the response is to worship with like-minded people. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity.
I don’t recall a particualr Bible verse that requires a literal interpretation. You are far more likely to have such a verse to hand.
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Thomas, there should not be a disagreement on God’s Word when it comes to put our Christian faith to work and what is and is not sin.
how do you handle the following versus of God’s Word
“Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such thinks are deserving of death, (Thomas, Paul is talking spiritual death not physical death) not only do the same BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.” Romans 1:32
Does not voting for sinful behavior fall under “BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM
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SteveG – I’m not sure, but I think Jon may have been banned due to his taking the Lord’s name in vain.
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Thomas, there should not be a disagreement on God’s Word when it comes to put our Christian faith to work and what is and is not sin.
But there is.
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For anyone interested, our pastor wrote a column on the world coming to an end in 2012.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/editorial/ci_13743555
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#109 Thomas1
“I just never understood the obsessive need of certain people to control the personal lives of others.”
Aren”t you for nationalized health care?
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Thomas I wrote this up in 2008, I hope this can help you
From The Pastor Desk: Our World View and The Bible
Posted 3/8/2008 3:25 PM MST on Gazette.com
From The Pastor Desk: Our World View and The Bible
Greeting in the name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I would like to take a few moments to talk about Our World View and The Bible. With this question in mind, Should our World View (or Social View) change the way we interrupt the Bible or Should the Bible change our World View (or Social View)?
Now some of you are saying what in the world is the pastor talking about? Let me explain. If you call yourself a Christian, you are saying you believe in Jesus Christ and God’s Word. So, what happens when you believe, your whole life that certain things are right and certain thinks are wrong, as you read the Bible, you find out that something you believed in or not believed in your whole life is wrong according to the Bible. What do you do? You have 2 chooses, one let your World View (or Social View) change the way you read the Bible or you let the Bible change your World View (or Social View)
For those who have permitted their World View (or Social View) to interrupt the Bible, came to this decision like this. They run out and find the Works of a Theologian, Professor, Teacher, Minster, Pastor that views the world like they due. They take the material of these people and use them to help justifies their World View (or Social View) and it helps them to reinterpret the Bible to support their views. Is this right or wrong? I will let you the readers decide.
For those who permitted the Bible (or Word of God) to change their world view, came to this decision like this. They start in prayer and picking up the Word of God, they look to see if God has always called this behavior right or wrong. They research to see how the Church through out time viewed these issues. Then, they sit down with their pastor or minister to ask if they are correctly interpreting the Word of God. From that point on they work on changing their World View to match what God’s Word says is right and wrong. Is this right or wrong? I will let you the readers decide.
From the pastor desk, may God Bless you.
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Pastor Roy I trust and believe you that Gen. Casey is a good soldier, but his statements all over the media yesterday were poorly chosen in supporting political correctness. I wouldn’t be surprised if he asks for and gets a chance to better explain what he meant. There seems to be no escaping politics as Army Chief of Staff.
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THOMAS1 #112
“I wonder what you’ll do when Muslims outnumber Christians in America and start putting their Muslim Faith to work.”
Are you really looking forward to Muslims taking over America?
Just as I’ve said to my husband, “Who will be dragged out first, Christians, Jews, other faiths, Homosexuals?”
You do know that Muslims are NOT for Homosexuality?
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 3:55 PM
Thomas, there should not be a disagreement on God’s Word when it comes to put our Christian faith to work and what is and is not sin.
But there is.
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The problem is there are some who have decided that God’s Word is not meeting the needs of society. So instead of encouraging the people to turn to God an let God change them, they have decided to change God’s Word to meet the needs of society. This is called a false teaching.
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Nana 11.09.09 AT 4:01 PM
Pastor Roy I trust and believe you that Gen. Casey is a good soldier, but his statements all over the media yesterday were poorly chosen in supporting political correctness. I wouldn’t be surprised if he asks for and gets a chance to better explain what he meant. There seems to be no escaping politics as Army Chief of Staff.
—-
That is a problem when you have a Soldier addressing media
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BOBBUCKLES #134
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This just in…A flight from New York just landed at the Pensacola Airport, Jim Cantore just got off the plane in full rain gear to report and bring the rest of you live action reports on Hurricane Ida.
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T1, even though you talk about conscience, you don’t seem to allow everyone the equal right to make up their own minds in deciding how to vote based on theirs. I can’t say it better than TRS at 118 and it’s hard for me to believe that you don’t know better. Being argumentative for its own sake is not productive and has long since detracted from any credibility you might have had.
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Pastor Roy, perhaps this will help you: http://www.dioceseny.org/pages/372-let-the-reader-understand
BobBuckles, that shows a fundamental problem with your understanding of the bill. Tee-hee and all, unless you can show but offering people choices in their health care is the same thing as forcing a woman to carry a baby to term, you’re out.
News2Me – I have discovered a name for the phenomenon exhibited by you in your comment @ 4:02. It’s called dirty debating. By ascribing a motive to my comment that isn’t there and extrapolating on it, you’ve had some fun with words. But the fact is that it adds nothing to the discussion. In addition it really makes you seem petty (which I’m sure you’re not) and not-too-swift, which I’m likewise sure you’re not.
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Nana, I have to admit that I don’t much care what you think either.
For the record, this mythical everyone whose rights of conscience I’m not allowing does not need my permission to vote for whomever they please.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 4:15 PM
Pastor Roy, perhaps this will help you: http://www.dioceseny.org/pages/372-let-the-reader-understand
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What does God’s Word say?
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 4:18 PM
Nana, I have to admit that I don’t much care what you think either.
For the record, this mythical everyone whose rights of conscience I’m not allowing does not need my permission to vote for whomever they please.
——
Thomas as a Christian we should care if our brothers and sister in the Lord has a problem with us.
“For the record, this mythical everyone whose rights of conscience I’m not allowing does not need my permission to vote for whomever they please. ”
What about God? How does He view about how we vote?
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Well, that’s your where your credibility problem lies Thomas, you’re just playing with words and not making yourself clear. You want to try that second sentence again?
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What about God? How does He view about how we vote?
We’ll all find out for sure one day, won’t we?
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Victoria – wow, I hope and pray that is the case.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 4:29 PM
What about God? How does He view about how we vote?
We’ll all find out for sure one day, won’t we?
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Thomas, we do not have to wait. God’s Word tells us how He feels about issues.
“Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such thinks are deserving of death, (Thomas, Paul is talking spiritual death not physical death) not only do the same BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.” Romans 1:32
Look at the list before this passage gives you an undertand God views on issues.
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DONNA @133: Good article by your pastor.
I am of the Pentacostal purssuasion and as a pastor/teacher, I have had to deal with the inevitable “end times” for years. I have had a number of people come to me and my wife looking for advice as what to do because the end was “just around the corner”.
Concerns such as ; “Should we get married, buy a new car, buy a house, have children and etc.” My wife and I would always advise them to live life to the fullest and leave the end in God’s hand.
So much of their concern was due to reading and listening to end time gloom and doom that we would tell them to burn those books, tapes, etc. and ignore the nonsense, while living for today and and thanking God for tomorrow.
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Some years ago I dated George1. He went on to be Mr. Naval Academy. He is the one I didn’t marry, I married George2. Anyway George1’s grandmother is first generation Staten Island Northern Italian. She is quite the opinionated one. Their son Robert just called me to see if I would be interested in listing his parents house for sale. He talked to a realtor friend of his who passed because of the difficulty of dealing with Grandma Brown. I have an appointment tomorrow to go talk to them. Grandpa Brown wants me and Grandma is still disappointed I didn’t marry her Georgie.
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roger patno – where is your headquarter base at? The reason I am just a little old Pentacostal Preacher
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NANNA @ 142 is correct.
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Pastor Roy, what flavor Pentacostal are you?
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Kim 11.09.09 AT 4:40 PM
Pastor Roy, what flavor Pentacostal are you?
Well I am going to break my gold rule as to never reveal the Church I am license through, but I feel in my Spirit it is ok
Church of God, of Cleveland, TN
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ROY: I have never been a denominational minister. Alway a non, but always under accountability to a good mix of Biblicly oriented men.
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Pastor Roy, aren’t there two versions of Church of God? My grandparents were Assembly of God on my father’s side and my mother’s side was Old Time Methodist Episcopal (meaning that one Sunday the Methodist preacher came and one Sunday the Episcopal Priest came.
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Pastor Roy: I attended a COG here in SC as a fill in preacher and a SS teacher. However I never formally joined the church.
Met many beautiful people there.
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Kim 11.09.09 AT 5:09 PM
Pastor Roy, aren’t there two versions of Church of God? My grandparents were Assembly of God on my father’s side and my mother’s side was Old Time Methodist Episcopal (meaning that one Sunday the Methodist preacher came and one Sunday the Episcopal Priest came.
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There is Church of God of Cleveland, TN and The Church of God of Prophecy, which is a Church the broke away in the early 20th Century. The Church of God of Anderson (I do believe that is the right name) but it has no relationship with the Church of God of Cleveland, TN
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roger patno 11.09.09 AT 5:13 PM
Pastor Roy: I attended a COG here in SC as a fill in preacher and a SS teacher. However I never formally joined the church.
Met many beautiful people there.
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That ok, I look at it this way we are all under one head an that is Jesus Christ.
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Roger – I, too, am of the Pentecostal persuasion.
When my first daughter was just a little thing, I was discussing the issue of the end times with a deacon of our church. I said that I felt guilty because I kinda wanted the end times to not happen too soon. I looked forward to seeing my little girl grow up & being able to do the things that mommies & their little girls do together, like tea parties & such.
The man assured me I didn’t need to feel guilty about wanting to see my daughter grow up & do mother-daughter things, because God made me to be a mother & want those things.
And I agree with your advice to those who ask how to live while awaiting the end times.
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Thomas, I don’t quite understand your terminology of “forcing a woman to carry a baby to term.” Is that sort of like forcing a mother of toddlers to let her baby live or (horrors) doing the same for a mother of teens?
A woman who is pregnant, is pregnant. She will stay pregnant until she delivers the baby alive, it dies, or she kills it (and with either of those last two possibilities, she will deliver a dead baby instead of a live baby). There’s no “forcing” in the matter. And this idea that pregnancy is some awful thing that somehow just happens to women, without their consent, and that society must be horrified about . . . well, it’s remarkably anti-child and anti-family, and it’s pretty anti-woman too. Pregnancy is a blessing from God. Women who aren’t willing to get pregnant shouldn’t get married, and they certainly shouldn’t be having sex outside of marriage.
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Karen, my sister-in-law who just died had a small granddaughter, their daughter’s first (and possibly only) child, who will be three in March. From all accounts, the single hardest thing for her about her death is not being here to watch that little girl grow up . . . and knowing she probably won’t even remember her as time goes by. Even though God was taking her home, and she had no choice in the matter, that was the hardest thing for her to reconcile. I suppose that without that little girl, she might not have fought so hard or so long.
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Cheryl D, remember, dear heart, there are some people who don’t want to be punished with a baby. They’re rejecting the God-given instinct to love and raise His children. I pity them. It was a hateful, heartbreaking spectacle to watch all the Democrat women in the House line up Saturday night decrying the anti-abortion amendement to the healthcare bill, as though the very survival of women depended on public funding to kill inconvenient babies. Words fail me.
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THOMAS1 #143
T1: “By ascribing a motive to my comment that isn’t there and extrapolating on it, you’ve had some fun with words.”
N2M: Interesting response since that is what you do a lot.
T1: “But the fact is that it adds nothing to the discussion.”
N2M: Most of your “discussion” as you call it is about belittling people.
T1: “In addition it really makes you seem petty (which I’m sure you’re not) and not-too-swift, which I’m likewise sure you’re not.”
N2M: Now if I say the same thing to you are you going to play the “I’m going to tell on you” card as you have done recently. Not only do you tell on someone, you tell them that you TOLD ON THEM? eww
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N2M, he doesn’t matter, except to himself. Roger is correct. We have to stop feeding the little guy. It is tempting, though, to try and help him by heaping coals upon his little head.
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Nana – it is the Pastor in me I see people like THOMAS1 and SteveG and want to help them so bad.
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You can be “mentally ill” and still be sane and still know the difference between right and wrong. The woman in NY should be and will prosecuted to the full extent the law allows, and I hope she gets the stiffist sentence available. My cat hopes the same thing.
Nana: “Words fail me.” They did what??!! It amazes me that anyone wants to pay for abortions considering it is so easy to get birth control. It’s time for people to grow up and accept responsibility for their actions.
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Yes, they did, NJL. A long, long snake line of indignant, anti-life, whining women embellishing their Unanimous Consent requests with gripes and crocodile tears if they couldn’t get the government to pay for abortions. I was livid – still am. I’m ashamed of them.
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Kim
What if there is a vast weather wing conspiracy to boost Weather Channel ratings? Maybe before Mr. Cantore landed, he and the crew were seeding the clouds.
I mean if there’s gonna be anyone who could manipulate the weather to suit their own purposes, it would be the Weather Channel meteorologists, would it not?
They claim their coverage of the weather is “fair and balanced” but why only the coverage of major metropolises? Where’s the voice for the little guy’s town? Local On the 8’s? Is that it? Five graphic windows and some generic wind speeds? There’s something not right about it.
What is their bias? Is weather reporting objective? Or is there some sort of deviant partisanship going on behind the scenes? Warmists and anti-warmists? Are they out there manipulating the weather to boost ratings? Get people to buy umbrellas or Eddie Bauer rain gear?
Perhaps they’re in the pocket of hurricane flag makers or the home improvement industry.
Something to think about. Weather and the media make strange bedfellows.
Be safe Kim. God’s speed, and not the wind’s, be with you.
OH
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Pastor Roy 169, I know. I understand. I’m just so disgusted with “playful”, phony intellectualizing of serious matters. I’m in a temporary slump here, I guess.
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Thank you OH, nice take on one of my favorite chanels
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Nana – I fear I fall into that category. Whether you had me in mind or not, I believe I am guilty of that nonetheless.
It is easy to get caught up in it all. The “immediate” response is addicting, whatever it is.
OH
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When I had TV, I enjoyed watching the Weather Channel and admired Mr. Cantore’s bravado.
Eyes of hurricanes keep their…er, well, eyes on him.
I can never understand why, however, some of the anchors insist on wearing hats while standing in hurricane-force winds.
What? Gonna keep the head dry, huh? Yeah. Wear a jacket and a hat. Like it.
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And holding electrical equipment in the hand while standing in water. Good stuff. Or umbrellas in 100-mile-an-hour winds. Fantastic television.
OH
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I loved it when their on-the-scene people were reporting in the middle of a blizzard two blocks from me and I passed them as I slogged my way through feet of snow to work.
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They are something, aren’t they? If you see the Weather Channel van in your neighborhood, it is a good idea to perhaps flee.
But there’s hidden camera gig!
Get van which looks like the Weather Channel, park it in some busy part of town, put on the hat and jacket and stand outside of the van looking at the sky, shaking your head and looking morosely concerned. Say things like, “We need to get Cantore out here, I’ve never seen anything quite like this” as people pass by within earshot.
That would be fun.
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Cheryl D. – I’m not pro-abortion, but I think it’s not my decision to make, since I will never be in the postion to consider one for either myself or a loved one. (Aversion to the practice, age, marital status and ability to provide for even surprise kids preclude it.)
The pro-life side’s argument is weakened severely by a dearth of answers – who pays for the unwillingly pregnant woman’s health care? Why are so many kids ageing out of the foster / adoption systems? Who will provide for and raise them?
Pro life policies would produce exactly that – life. What happens to that life seems to be of little concern to pro-life policy wonks, so long as the life is alive.
And before I get all kinds of nasty comments – I teach a class at an orphanage for older kids who are unlikely to be adopted. Fortunately, these kids are treated well and have a much better chance of being ok even if no one takes them home.
Most kids like them do not. This is not to say that they should have been murdered before they were born. But the pro-life movement HAS to address this issue before abortion is made illegal. Otherwise, it’s feeding the problem.
The fact of the matter is that if abortion is off the table, women are forced to have children that they don’t want. Ever see what happens when that goes on? Not pretty.
Nana, I suspect that there’s some blue hair singed from some coals that have be lumped upon your own dear little head.
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Thomas1
The fact of the matter is that if abortion is off the table, women are forced to have children that they don’t want. Ever see what happens when that goes on? Not pretty.
Who says the desire of the woman not to give birth is the penultimate rationale upon which we permit abortion? Women are not the authors of human life, but the bearers of it.
Your presupposition only differentiates between two types of suffering with you making the determination as to which is more beneficial.
One in the womb and one outside the womb.
You make a determination that “taking life” is qualitatively better than “permitting life”.
How do you know this?
Should Herod have been successful in taking the life of Christ when He was an infant in order to prevent Christ’s sufferings?
My father was adopted. He was the product of an illicit affair because the woman decided not to have an abortion. She and her “lover” were both married to other people at the time.
So here I am. Should I not be here? Should my paternal grandmother have aborted my father?
You tell me, Thomas. You’re the advocate.
OH
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I regret the post above. I wanted to delete the “You tell me, Thomas. You’re the advocate” before I posted.
I let my emotions get the best of me here and I admit I did not fully read all of Thomas1’s post and only responded to the bottom part of it.
I went off indignantly “cranky” this time. I’ve asked the WMB editor to remove it and I apologize for my tearse, legalistic tones.
OH
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OH,
I hope it’s not removed, I believe it to be a fine post, written from your heart, well stated and the truth.
I’ve not met one single individual, no matter what their circumstances that wishes they had never been born.
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Thomas,
If the easy availability of abortion had decreased child abuse, you might have a point. (I’d still argue that you don’t kill a child and see that as a good alternative to abusing that child.) But easy abortion (and with it loss of respect for human life) has greatly increased child abuse, so that pragmatic excuse doesn’t hold any water.
Who pays for the unwillingly pregnant woman’s care? Rather weak argument, honestly. “Unwillingly” pregnant hardly means pregnant apart from her own choices. Human beings pay for their own medical care, normally. However, when women decide to give up a baby for adoption, usually their medical care is paid for, so this really isn’t an issue. And poor women tend to have their medical care paid for by the state. But even if it is an issue, you’d never allow it in any other context: Who pays for the care of the child with diabetes or leukemia? Can we kill the child if the parent is unwilling to pay for his care? Morally diabolical argument.
And look on this blog alone and see how many Christians have done / are doing foster care and adoption. Many fewer children are aging out of foster care now that the rules have changed and mothers can no longer keep their kids in foster care for years while refusing to sign over custody. But Christians are stepping forward in large numbers to meet these needs . . . even though child abuse has increased astronomically and more difficult, older foster children end up being the result of that. I myself have done foster care, and would have adopted the children I had if it were necessary, though I am single and not in a high income bracket. (I would still be doing foster care except for the simple fact that they had more foster parents than they needed, once Tennessee rules changed to encourage children to be placed with relatives, and it wasn’t worth keeping up with the training and other obligations when I wasn’t assigned any children. I had three placements, a total of six weeks, in about three years of being qualified to take kids.)
Women are never forced to rear children they don’t want. Should they be “forced” to continue a pregnancy they don’t want, once they’re already pregnant? Absolutely, since the only alternative is killing the child. Having a baby nine months from now is the natural end result of conception. Having sex really does open the possibility of having a baby, and no, that’s not being “punished” with a baby, but being blessed with a baby. If she doesn’t want the baby, killing it isn’t a legitimate option (any more than it’s the legitimate option if she doesn’t want her toddler or her pesky husband), but giving it up for adoption is. And again, don’t bother saying on this blog that there isn’t anyone there to take that unwanted baby. There are plenty of us who have done so, and are still doing so. But even if there weren’t, a civilized society doesn’t kill its “unwanted” citizens. Nazi Germany did so, but the world condemns them for that clearly evil choice. Killing “inconvenient” or “unwanted” people is never a legitimate option, and NOTHING can change that.
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OH, no big deal. I’m used to it.
Your father was fortunate. The kids I work with are not. I teach them budgeting, personal finance and investing – things a parent should teach but never will.
I get a LOT of alumni Christmas cards. I save all of them. They’re not my kids, but if I helped even one not worry about money, I’ve accomplished… something.
Who says the desire of the woman not to give birth is the penultimate rationale upon which we permit abortion?
It’s not. But since the life and health of her baby is contingent upon her desire, should it have no place in the discussion? Forcing people to do things against their will that have physical, emotional, and monetary consequenses should have a place, I think.
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Cheryl, that’s… horrible.
Who pays for the unwillingly pregnant woman’s care? Rather weak argument, honestly. “Unwillingly” pregnant hardly means pregnant apart from her own choices. Human beings pay for their own medical care, normally.
But sometimes, it does. “Oh, you’re pregnant? I want a divorce. So’s my secretary. Not my problem.”
Of course such men can be compelled to pay child support. But really, Cheryl, I think you don’t get the concept of choices and how other people’s choices impact our own.
Women are never forced to rear children they don’t want. Should they be “forced” to continue a pregnancy they don’t want, once they’re already pregnant? Absolutely, since the only alternative is killing the child.
So, jail, forced vitamins and exercise, all ok with you?
Not me.
And again, don’t bother saying on this blog that there isn’t anyone there to take that unwanted baby. There are plenty of us who have done so, and are still doing so.
But not enough, or I’d have no students. Which is, of course, the point.
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Thomas – Which of your students do you think should have been aborted?
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No wind yet. Mostly rain. It is rather cool outside which is a good thing. Worst thing is that Baby Boy Dog doesn’t like to get his feet wet. We have been outside several times for him to take care of his bidness but he won’t.
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Thomas, those hairs on my dear little head are red. Quality of life is important. But first comes life.
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Not one, Karen O.
Straw man redux. I want to know what pro-lifers are doing to help thewm and people – LIVES – similarly situated.
It’s easy to pop into a voting booth in November and push a screen or click a lever.
It’s not so easy to make your principles reality. And since so many conservative “Christians” don’t care about lives after they’ve been born, I think my questions are legitimante.
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Nana, Miss Clairol thanks you. (I picture the film “Gilda” when I think of you, and that’s a compliment.)
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Thomas, if you don’t know you’re wrong in 190, then you’re leading a wierdly sheltered life. If it weren’t such a trite and tired complaint among pro-choicers I might give you more credit for presuming anti-abortion people don’t care about life after birth. Not so, and you should know better.
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Don’t know Gilda or Miss C. I only know wthat you’ve made up your mind and you’re sticking to it, even if you have to resort to insults for converts. OK. How’s it working for you, or your students. Do you try to convert them, too?
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Thomas: I don’t think there is a legitimate “discussion.” As Cheryl and I think OH said, pregnancy is not something we allow to happen. We have no real control over it, beyond abstinence. And, again, it’s not as if they didn’t make the choice in the first place. They have to live with the consequences of their actions. We can be sympathetic, I guess, if they’re dirt poor or something, but it’s hardly some huge indignity inflicted on women by life. Everyone lives with consequences.
You’ve heard, haven’t you, in gun safety classes, that the safety is only a mechanical device that can and will fail? So, imagine someone were to pick up every gun they run across, turn the safety on, and shoot it at themselves. One time, the safety fails. Do people bemoan the unfairness of life when they hear such a story? No, they usually think “what an idiot.” I recently heard about a case here in Oregon where such a thing happened and the state refused to call it an accident, going instead with suicide, because “nobody is that stupid.”
I think this is rather like sex and pregnancy. Contraception works even less than safeties, I think. And if you’re talking unprotected, then we can forget the safety analogy, and go instead with firing guns at yourself without first checking the safety, and simply hoping that they’re unloaded.
In other words, the whole “women have a right to control their own bodies” is total hogwash on many levels. Women have no more right to avoid the consequences of their actions than does anybody else.
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Thomas – I asked that particular question, as distasteful as it was, because your arguments seem to say that you think your students would have been better off aborted.
I do know that Christians do in fact care about the lives of the mothers & babies after the babies are born. Many (or most, I’m not sure which) crisis pregnancy centers offer help after the birth as well as before. It has already been mentioned that women giving up their babies for adoption will have their needs taken care of. And many of us have stories of families in our congregations who have helped out pregnant unwed moms.
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http://traumaadoption.org/adopt/content/aging-out-point-failure
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http://www.childrensrights.org/news-events/cr-blog/newsweek-article-highlights-plight-of-teens-aging-out-of-foster-care/
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There’s just something very wrong with playing God by stopping a natural process with abortion.
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Spoken like a woman who never was forced to give birth.
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186: I have no idea why jail or forced vitamins are at all relevant, but I think I’ll clear this up with regards to my view, anyway. I like hypothetical situations on occasion: I think they can be useful to illustrate a worldview. My favorite one that I’ve used the most on this blog is what my morals would look like if I weren’t Christian.
So, in this fantasy world where the only choices are abortion and strapping down women and forcing them to have the baby, and the decision rested with me, would I be willing to “inflict” that on women?
Absolutely. Murder is worse than inconveniencing women.
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#188
My dog is convinced of the injustice of this. No one else in the house, including the two cats, have to go outside to do their “business.” But, my poor dog has to go out in the rain, and the snow, and the ice, and the cold, and the dark and squat there.
She is NOT happy about the whole situation, and — if dogs could form some sort of “dogs’ rights” group, she’d be at the head and marching with a sign!
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Oh, really T1 199 – and you know this because……
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#199
I’ve given birth — three times. And, I’ve had some really uncomfortable pregnancies and some really uncomfortable births. I got gestational diabetes with all three. My daughter drove me crazy for the first three months (pretty literally. It’s the only time I’ve ever had severe anxiety attacks.) I could go on.
I most definitely understand the situation WAY better than you do, Thomas.
And, I believe that a woman makes a choice to have sex, and should have to keep the baby once its there. Period.
There is no “inconvenience” so great as to justify murder.
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And, I thought that was a real cheap shot at Nana (who, I believe did keep a baby and then give it up for adoption???? Am I remembering right?) Which gives her FAR more creds than you on this subject.
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And, I meant keep it in her womb. I have nothing but admiration for someone who decides to give her baby up for adoption, knowing it is the best thing for the baby.
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Yes TRS, right as usual, but that’s how they play their nasty little games. And my #1 son and his adoptive parents didn’t mind. I might be done here.
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Thomas – 199
You’re way out of line – you have made some outlandish statements but this one is mean-spirited to the core.
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Nana –
This individual knew the background – just waiting for a chance to say what they wanted.
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#207
Agreed.
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Nana – MAIL
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Thomas – Did you happen to see my earlier comment addressed to you at #116?
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Thanks TRS & Vic, I think T1 must have her own set of hang-ups that translate into a bit of sadism.
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I have a feeling this nasty potion has been simmering for a long time just waiting to spew it’s rancid brew -
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Thomas,
Do I think a pregnant woman should be strapped down and force-fed vitamins? No, I can’t imagine that being a good scenario–but it’s a rather silly suggestion, no? But then, I don’t think that a potential murderer of any sort should be handcuffed just in case he succeeds in murder. The state can certainly punish a person who succeeds, however.
I do think there might sometimes be a civil interest in locking up a person who has made serious attempts on someone else’s life. I definitely think that were abortion to be made illegal, the “doctor” who performs one should be charged with a crime (just as, ironically, a non-medical person such as the woman’s boyfriend is charged with a crime today if he attempts to kill the child, even if the mother wants him to). And yes, I even think that the mother who kills her own child in the womb can justly be charged with a crime, if abortion is illegal. I’m not actually even sure why that option is considered with such horror. In the days of slavery, slave owners often got away with killing their slaves, but I think we’d find nearly unanimous agreement today that killing one’s slave should have been considered a crime, and treated as a crime.
Though today it is socially acceptable to kill one’s own child as long as it hasn’t been born yet, there’s no adequate moral reason not to treat it as a criminal offense, assuming it is against the law. (It would not be fair, or legally permissible, to go back and try women who murdered their babies legally. But that’s a technicality. If it’s illegal, then there’s nothing moral or legal to stand in the way.) Would I insist that an anti-abortion bill had to contain such a provision, no, but I see no inherent contradiction in thinking that abortion should be illegal, and that having an abortion should be as “punishable” as any other crime.
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Honestly, though, a deeper reason that we even have such discussions as whether abortion can lower the rates of child abuse is that we have turned the meanings of manhood and womanhood on their head. In a culture in which gentlemen marry women before they take them to bed, and protect their wives and children, neither abortion nor child abuse is acceptable.
And in a culture where the ability to bear children is one of the greatest joys of womanhood, the very idea that pregnancy is such a great evil that the only viable solution is to kill the child would be unthinkable.
This discussion is only happening because we’ve completely lost our biblical moorings and are adrift in insanity.
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#180 Thomas1
“Why are so many kids ageing out of the foster / adoption systems? Who will provide for and raise them?”
My wife and I adopted three older children. Yes, there were some problems with getting older children. 12 year olds get to say yes or no to the adoptive family- two of ours got to make that choice. They had been in foster care much longer. Who in the world wants to take a child going into puberty? Didn’t Mark Twain write about raising kids with the bung hole theory? Often, social workers don’t want to place older children. People often want babies, we don’t really like babies. (Weird, huh?)
Since you work with orphans, why haven’t you taken the plunge?
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Karen O: I’m not sure, but I think Jon may have been banned due to his taking the Lord’s name in vain.
Hmm.
Anyone know for sure? Or rather, can someone who does know for sure confirm or deny?
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OK, I see in post #128 of the Whirled Views thread immediately after the ugly incident, Mickey says that “profanely taking the Lord’s name in vain will not be tolerated on this website, no matter what. It results in an automatic banning.”
I guess that does suggest Jon’s banned, although I wasn’t aware he had taken the Lord’s name in vain. And since I can’t any such post from him now, I assume it’s been removed.
Did anyone else see it? No need to repeat what he said, but can someone confirm he committed the offense? I saw Mickey’s message but didn’t connect the dots to figure out he was saying Jon was banned.
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Me neither, Steve: I can only assume he posted something that was removed before I saw it.
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Nana: just out of curiosity: is there a particular reason you refer to Thomas as female? I’d assume Thomas is a male name.
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#218
I never saw it either. I looked and had been pretty active in the thread, so I was surprised to think there had been a post like that which I missed.
I was not happy that Jon was banned.
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#199 Thomas,
You’re way out of line and owe Nana an apology. Really.
#218 Steve,
I haven’t seen Jon either, nor did I read the original offense. If he’s gone, I’m sorry for it.
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@ DJ – I had no idea about Nana’s personal circumstances and still don’t, except by implication.
@ TJS: Nana: just out of curiosity: is there a particular reason you refer to Thomas as female? I’d assume Thomas is a male name.
I’d guess a puerile attempt at humor. That, or gender-specific pronouns are the first thing to go in one’s dotage.
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TJS 220, suspicion and curiosity about her interests, writing style and biographical comments led me to reread some of her hissy-fits on other threads, especially mandated sex-ed in Britain. So, she’s either hiding behind a pseudonym, or T1 is one unusual dude.
Today’s another day the Lord has made.
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Yes, I did see Jon’s comment in which he “took the Lord’s name in vain”.
He was very angry, & unfortunately let it get the better of him.
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Thomas1 11.09.09 AT 9:24 PM
Spoken like a woman who never was forced to give birth.
—
THoma an you call yourself a Christian?
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Nana – 224
Do you remember what happened on “Whirled Views 11.7″ – Post 107? – very hurtful remark towards News2Me saying “This is something that a vulgar person does.” -
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I had no idea about Nana’s personal circumstances and still don’t, except by implication.
#223 Thomas,
But then why would you speak to her that way (199). I’ve learned that it’s usually a bad idea to do too much assuming about the people on this blog. There is an unusually rich and broad background of education and experiences reflected here. But most people can be very entreatable. I’ll bet you could make peace if you wanted to.
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227 – I do, now – plus that informative definition that came up somewhere
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DJ, you’re absolutely correct in applying this to everyone, and thanks.
227 – Today I think we got her version of Rules for Radicals on WV.
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