The bishops actually had envoys on Capital Hill urging representatives to vote for Stupak.

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Drill: There is no ‘double standard’, except in your own mind, or rhetoric, more than likely.

Yes, there is.

We just spent 200 posts with you unwilling to say that women who procure an abortion should be subjected to the same legal process that all murderers are. If there were no double standard, you would not hesitate to say that the woman who procures an abortion should be tried with whatever the DA thinks he can prove.

Then if the woman’s defense can establish insanity, she should be treated accordingly (committed to a facility for the criminally insane). If the woman’s defense can establish that she didn’t really know what she was doing, she would be treated accordingly (convicted of manslaughter and sent to jail for 5 years or so).

You were unwilling to affirm that. You instead said that the mother who hires a professional to murder her unborn baby is “generally not criminal” but is “a secondary victim” whom you and all “right-minded people” had “no great interest” in prosecuting.

That, Drill, is a double standard.

You see, you have one standard for murderers, and another standard for women who procure abortions. Your standard is something like this: only repeat offenders should be prosecuted. The rest should be seen as mentally unstable victims. You do not hold that standard for women who hire assassins to kill their husbands, do you? Does everybody get one dead husband for free, then after that they have to go to court and explain themselves to a jury?

And I talk about this not just to embarrass you. It’s a wide spread double standard. Sarah Palin, the poster-girl of the religious Right, is even more egregiously illogical:

And, um, if you’re asking, though, kind of foundationally here, should anyone end up in jail for having an … abortion, absolutely not. That’s nothing I would ever support.

So you, like most pro-lifers, call abortion murder, but you are unwilling to treat it as such. What should we make of that?

Or am I wrong? Will you here affirm that women who procure abortions should be subjected to exactly the same judicial process as women who hire assassins to kill their husbands? If that judicial process finds them of unsound mind or unaware of their crime, then they get off with their lighter sentence. And if it doesn’t, these women get life, or death, according to the judicial process of their state.

Will you affirm that?

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That may be how Drill wants our criminal system to work, but that’s not how it works, nor how Americans want it to work. Our prisons are full of the severely ill, ignorant, and deprived. We imprison people because we are mad at them and want to damage them. We say it’s for our protection, and we continue to harvest new generations of criminals. We imprison people unnecessarily and have no interest in treatment.

I’d be all in favor of allowing Drill to write criminal laws against abortion provided he applied the same procedures to all crimes. I’d like trials to be less about what lawbreakers do and more about their mental handicaps, neurosis, fears, ignorance, conditioning, and limitations. Anyone who steals anything other than a pack of hamburger meat must be severely mentally ill. Anyone who punches you in the face must be emotionally damaged and needy of help. Anyone who defrauds the treasury must be a candidate for intensive psycho-dynamic therapy. Etc.

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There is no ‘double standard’, except in your own mind, or rhetoric, more than likely.

Abortion is murder and it needs to be stopped in its tracks.

There are Absolutes; your fear and terror of that fact is justified. Your denying it is not.

A decent person does not stop to review the ‘complexities’ of the situation when they see someone being murdered in front of their eyes.

They stop the murder.

What part of that position that I hold needs a ‘logical’ defense to satisfy a moral relativist such as yourself?

Finally:

Given the anonymity of the internet, For all I know, you could be a faithfully pro-life person very cleverly posting as a pro-abort in order to demonstrate the deviltry (and the moral/spiritual absurdity) behind the pro-abort position and the idea of the relativity of killing children.

And for all you know, I am a pro-abort posting in order to attempt to paint pro-lifers as ‘inflexible’ and ‘unwilling to see the complexity of the issues, the gray areas, blah, blah, blah’ and ‘verbally abusive’ because clinically accurate language is used to describe abortion and the link is made directly back to abortion supporters and enablers.

Whatever. Grow up – you defend the murder of children and I call you on it for what it is.

And that simply makes you livid.

Well, great.

Maybe that is the first step on the road back to a sense of humanity, and a moral clarity on the black and white question of whether or not the butchering of children is acceptable.

One can always hope.

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You don’t care to explain or justify your double standard. You deny complexity even as you treat abortion differently than other murders (the very definition of complexity — that it requires differential treatment). You just post every so often with EVIL BABY KILLING ENABLER GUILTY NAZI.

Alright. I’ll deal with that. And you deal with this:

You hold a position that you cannot or will not logically defend.

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The arbitrary, deliberate killing of a human being should not be a matter of an individual’s choice. Arbitrary killing is immoral, and should be immoral by anyone’s standards. Though they would deny it, I think many abortion supporters know this intuitively. It shows in the way abortion clinics are shielded from the kind of regulations hospitals have, and women in clinics are not given full disclosure about what is actually happening in the procedures.

All that being said, I still supported Obama in the election. We’re in tremendous economic crisis, and I thought he could stabilize the economy faster and with less trauma to those most vulnerable in such a crisis. That’s good for all of us. Also, I have not seen a credible challenge to the idea that the unborn fare better in a good economy, since there are fewer abortions in a good economy. So, I hope Obama is successful in turning the economy around soon. I couldn’t support him over the long haul for many other reasons.

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But please leave off with the implied notion that abortion is just another issue, like how much to raise property taxes or whether we should change immigration laws or even nationalize health care, etc. and that ‘decent’ people can argue about the complexity of the morality of killing children, as you regularly do.

A politican who supports abortion is rotten to the core, regardless of their stance on any other ‘issue’ – and anyone who knowingly supports that politican, including you or anyone else, likewise.

I will admit guilt, however, that I am indeed offensive toward your affirming ‘position’ on the murder of children – and whatever toxic motives that brew inside you which inspires that unsupportable position.

Deal with it.

Or don’t.

Your culture lets you sugar-coat your support of abortion and even calls it good.

I won’t.

And that is your problem, should you choose to make asinine remarks (complexity) about the ‘topic’ of abortion.

Supporting evil is your choice, not mine.

But calling you out (and others like you) on it is what I do and what I am required to do.

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Drill: JJF makes an incredibly long complex post which totally (and, as usual, purposely) misrepresents what was said on this thread.

I quoted you directly.

And yet again, your post does not in the least address my argument — that our hesitancy to prosecute women as murderers belies an inability to treat abortion as murder. And, yet again, you instead asserts secret motives that supposedly direct my posts.

Drill: There is nothing complex about abortion.

Then why do you want to treat aborting women differently than you would treat other murderers? Other murderers would have their day in court. The courts would decide if they are mentally fit, if they were aware of what they did, and punish them accordingly.

Drill, you are regularly personally offensive. You go out of your way to do it. I have not treated you that way. I haven’t seen anyone else on this thread treat you that way. Are you unable to discuss a topic without resorting again and again to insults and claims about how the evil motives you invent for your opponents means you don’t have to bother answering their arguments?

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And so the debate began in the Garden: surely you will not die, for when you do THIS, this and that will happen and that will not happen – it is so much more complicated than just ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, you see, and that tyrannical Creator who gave you breath does not want you to understand the wonders and entertaining complexities of these sorts of questions and that, really, there is no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil – just varying shades of endlessly debatable gray, you know!

Bleah.

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I suppose, following his Messiah, he might even say it is ‘above his paygrade’.

JJF makes an incredibly long complex post which totally (and, as usual, purposely) misrepresents what was said on this thread.

The question regards the guilt and treatment of the secondary victim in an abortion (the mother – who also is the accomplice to the murder) has been answered NUMBERS of times, quite adequately, by a number of posters on this thread. JJF lies when he says it was not.

I refused to be diverted by this red herring from the central focus which is on the absolute complicity of those who like JJF support, enable and celebrate via their actions and deeds (as well as their words) in the genocide of abortion. Again, JJF lies to us, to himself (perhaps) and to the author of Life about this ONLY critical point.

JJF and others like him are the exact equivalent of the facilitaters and supporters of the Holocaust in Germany 70 years ago. He knows it and does not have the basic integrity to admit it and move on.

There is nothing complex about abortion.

There is nothing complex about evil.

And there is nothing complex about JJF and the other supporters of abortion in this country..

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