A conscientious objector in the Christmas wars
It’s Christmastime, the season for urgent cries from Christian groups who want to defend the holiday from the forces of secularism.
Typical is the press release I got from the American Family Association threatening a boycott of Old Navy, Gap, and Banana Republic because their holiday advertising wasn’t sufficiently Christmas-y. When Gap officials said they had advertisements in the works that were Christmas oriented, the AFA took credit and suspended the boycott.
“As a gesture of our ‘good will to men,’ we have decided to suspend our boycott of Gap and its divisions until we see the content of this new commercial,” said Bryan Fischer, the AFA’s director of issues analysis. “We firmly believe that Gap is responding to an enormous amount of pressure from the AFA network. We’re happy that they’re apparently keeping Christ and Christmas in the Christmas season.”
I consider myself a “fellow warrior” with some of these folk. By that I mean that we agree on many things, and I would normally join them in their “culture war” fights. But on this one, please allow me to offer a dissenting view to the prevailing “Jesus is the reason for the season” mentality.
First of all, Jesus is most certainly not the reason for the orgiastic spending spree modern Christmas has become. I certainly think anyone should be able to say “Merry Christmas” if he or she wants to. But given what this holiday has become, there’s a part of me—a big part of me—that wants to keep the Jesus I worship as far away from this commercial debauchery as possible.
Secondly, there are the words themselves. “Christmas” is derived from “Christ’s Mass,” an expression first recorded in the 11th century. “Holiday” is a word derived from “holy day,” an expression that likely has an even more ancient, and no less religious, derivation. Indeed, the phrase “Merry Christmas” was unknown until the 16th century, and it connoted the idea of a Christmas that was—shall we say—festive. In other words, “Merry Christmas” may have been a medieval euphemism for “bottoms-up.”
These historical associations may have been why the Puritans banned Christmas. In fact, it is ironic that many of the defenders of Christmas, who often venerate our Founding Fathers, forget that one of the deciding battles of the Revolutionary War took place when George Washington forced his troops across the Delaware River on Christmas night 1776. He attacked Hessian troops at Trenton, routing them in a battle that lasted only an hour. The myth spread that the Hessian troops were unprepared for the battle because they were drunk from their celebration of Christmas. It’s likely that this story is not strictly true, but it caught on because of the American and Puritan disdain for the celebration of Christmas.
My third reason for sitting out the Christmas wars is simply the overall shrillness of the conversation. Several years ago, Tampa pastor Paula White—who has since found herself under investigation by Sen. Charles Grassley and the Senate Finance Committee—initiated the “To Hell With Happy Holidays” campaign, an attempt to stamp out the phrase “Happy Holidays.” It seems ironic in the extreme that anyone would think it shows the love of Christ by saying “To hell with Happy Holidays.” But these are the depths to which many have fallen.
With all these reasons not to engage in the Christmas wars, why do Christian groups insist on this campaign year after year? I think the answer to that question may be, alas, crass commercialism. A 2006 story from the Religion News Service reported that the American Family Association sold more than 500,000 buttons and 125,000 bumper stickers bearing the slogan “Merry Christmas: It’s Worth Saving.” The Alliance Defense Fund sold about 20,000 “Christmas Packs” that same year. The packs, available for a suggested $29 donation, included a three-page legal memo and two lapel pins.
The bottom line here is, well, the bottom line: The Christmas wars are a financial windfall for the organizations that whip up this frenzy. The Christmas wars have become, ironically, the ultimate commercialization of Christmas.
I’m not saying that there are times when we Christians shouldn’t stand up for our rights, but when we fire all our weapons in such a meaningless skirmish, we alienate potential allies, and we have no ammunition for the battles that matter.
Huge challenges face our culture and the Christian church: abortion, pornography, same-sex marriage. These are battles worth fighting, battles we must win, battles with too few warriors in the fight. And we’re wasting our time with “Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays”? Our priorities are badly out of whack.
So when it comes to the culture war over holiday greetings, count me as a conscientious objector. I’m not a pacifist. It’s just that I’ve got more important battles to fight.
Editor’s Note: Portions of this commentary were adapted from Warren’s book A Lover’s Quarrel With The Evangelical Church.














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back to top119 Comments to “A conscientious objector in the Christmas wars”
Yup. Bah humbug.
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Amen! The last thing we need is more people saying things they don’t really mean. Forced ascent is the domain of others at war with the world.
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Hi Warren,
How providential that I just finished reading this piece over at the LewRockwell.com weblog:
First Signs of the Yule Tide: “War on Christmas” Hysteria
But you’ve even taken it a step further than Mr. McMaken has in pointing out the crass commercialization of “War on Christmas”!
Props and “Amen”!
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Excellent points Mr. Smith. Thanks.
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“The Christmas wars are a financial windfall for the organizations that whip up this frenzy.”
A very telling remark. The love of money is the root of all evil, and we are letting it manipulate us.
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Thank you! I’ve realized recently the validity of this point, for all the reasons you’ve just articulated so clearly… this isn’t one of those essential battles…
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Amen and Amen to this! If you “war” on anything you are constantly looking for a fight, even where there is none.
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Nicely said Warren. I agree with that from a religious perspective. However, my objection is more about the ridiculous double standard of political correctness, which opposes the mention of anything Christian.
It turns the 1st amendment on its head, by protecting sensitive ears from hearing anything they don’t like, rather than protecting the rights of people to say things which may be deemed offensive, esp. Christian speech the most offensive words of all.
The 1st amendment is being used to restrict speech, when its intention was the exact opposite, to allow more speech.
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I agree that the commercialism of this holiday has undermined the true meaning of our Savior’s birth. I find that if I want to celebrate Christmas I don’t go to Wal-Mart, or Old Navy or any other retail outlets. I go to Bread for the World, Heifer International, and Habitat for Humanity and give them my money, I give cards telling the recipient that a donation to one or more of these institutions has been given in lieu of a material gift. I still give some small and thoughtful gifts to my family members as well and of course some toys to my grandson. I find I my friends and family response is very positive and I really feel very happy myself. I think this type of giving is more in the nature of what Jesus wants us to do. Fighting over “Merry Christmas” wastes time and energy. If that is what you feel like saying, just say it, smile and move on. The person on the receiving end will make of it what they will, and perhaps it will brighten their day. Find peace in the season of peace and good will to those in need.
MERRY CHRISTMAS! Blessing of peace and joy to each and every one of you.
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Several people seem to be missing a very important point. It has not been called the “War on Christmas” because Christians and others have attaacked the private and public institutions banning Christmas. It’s called that because those institutions are banning Christmas in the first place. In other words, this is not a “war” that Christians started.
This is about customers telling businesses what their preferences are. “We want Christmas trees, not Winter Holiday trees. And it’s okay to wish us a Merry Christmas. We’ll even return the greeting.”
It’s about a heartwarming American tradition that, as pointed out in the editorial, has its darker side. Doesn’t everything? The best parts of Christmas, as a generic American tradition, are the spirit of giving and the reuniting of families. That’s worth preserving, and it’s worth fighting for.
In the context of the public arena, iit’s about upholding the First Amendment. It’s about citizens being allowed to practice their religion freely and to exercise free speech.
I think the part about the AFA selling buttons and other paraphernalia is unfair. Like every private organization I can think of , they sell trinkets as a way to raise funds. They also happen to believe what is promoted by the trinkets. I don’t fault them too much, and unless you want to claim that that they are lying about the incidents they report, you should go easier on them.
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#10
I agree with Kyle.
And, I like Christmas…a lot.
I’m really sorry for those who can only see its commercialization and its trouble and all. That’s not the way I see it at all.
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I agree with Kyle, especially his comments regarding the First Amendment. No one goes after Muslims for Eid or Jews for their high holy days in September/October. They do try to suppress the word Christmas and our use of that word, because it has Christ in it. And that does have an affect on the free exercise clause.
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This is great. Mr. Smith explains his aloofness from the “Christmas Wars” and his disdain for the tactics of those hayseeds in the AFA. He has “more important battles to fight,” dontcha know. Call me a cynic, but I think Smith may be trying to carve out a niche as a guy who can spank the Church for its own good. Such a writer could potentially sell to accusing liberals and introspective conservatives alike.
There’s no crass commercialism in selling books, is there?
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This is about as funny as the sex comments in the previous thread.
Here we have a group that holds conservative free enterprise ideology as a kind of idolatry. I am not a socialist or ant-free enterprise, but I don’t worship it.
The same group complains when free enterprise markets sexuality and when it commercializes Christmas.
Left hand meet right hand. Or is it right hand meet right hand?
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I’ve tried to ignore it, but I’m afraid I like Christmas too.
I’m sorry, but it’s a meaningful, fun and beautiful time of year. I don’t buy many gifts (and the ones I do are modest). I decorate some, but not very elaborately. Others in my neighborhood do all that much better than I do, and I love looking at all the lights and trees in the windows as I walk the dogs at night.
I especially look forward to Christmas Eve services and a time to remember Christ’s first advent as we contemplate & anticipate His second.
Has Christmas been commercialized? Sure, but that is the downside of a free market sometimes. No economic system is perfect. But I’ll take ours over the dreary socialist model any day.
I’m tired also of the “war,” however, and too often it becomes whiny on our side I’m afraid. But I do think there was a valid point to the objections. And really — isn’t it just plain silly to call a Christmas tree a “holiday” tree? Even some of my very secular friends agree.
I think our point’s been made.
So let’s enjoy, celebrate and reclaim the holiday in our culture.
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NJLawyer: I agree with Kyle, especially his comments regarding the First Amendment. No one goes after Muslims for Eid or Jews for their high holy days in September/October.
Maybe — no, certainly — that is because the Jews and Muslims are not insisting that everyone must share their celebration and whining about persecution when some object.
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Mr. Smith, I’m afraid that in your pursuit of “fighting more important battles,” you, as many other Christians of the past 60 years (who, may I note, have helped America into the predicament that it has found itself as pertaining to Christianity and its influences gradually taken out of various areas of this great country) have pulled out of the smaller battles. Your points are well taken about the history of Merry Christmas and the Christmas season, but in our country and present day, Christmas celebrated by Christians is not celebrated because of the mass origin or “bottom’s up” origin. We want to celebrate Christmas as a time to remember our precious Saviour coming to this world and cringe whenever the secular world wants to remove any form that would remind people of Christ during this season. Please, please, do not assume that AFA or any other Christian association is selling their Christmas items because they have found a way to make tons of money at this season. That is such a judgmental attitude. I kindly ask, “Have you called them — Don or Tim Wildmon — and asked them about it to find out what their thinking or heart attitude is on this topic? Jumping to conclusions about another brother/brothers’ motive is not kind, loving, good, meek, etc. Please forgive me if you have talked with them and came to that conclusion. May we, as true believers, not tear each other apart. Remember: the unsaved look at how we treat one another especially in areas that are not of doctrinal necessities. Thank you.
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#16: I’ll remember that next time I walk past a Holiday Candlestick. Oh, wait: it’s not related to Christianity, so we can still call it a Menorah.
Seriously, who ever asked everyone to participate in Christmas?
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In 57 years I can’t remember insisting or remember anyone else insisting that non-Christians participate in Christmas, Conan. It isn’t done. Why don’t you take that nonsense to the stores. And if they’re honest, they’ll tell you point blank that for them it’s about making money.
And if you think others don’t whine, think again. Their whining is why we’ve had all the court cases, why we can’t put up creches, why we can’t call a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree, etc. Yeah, they whine, and they whine because the don’t really believe in the free exercise clause. And from your post, I glean you don’t either.
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And I have to tell you, Conan, reading your post has inspired me to decorate and decorate and decorate! I’m going to have some fun, you old Scrooge!
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No? Then why do some Christians get into a lather when a store cashier wishes them “Happy Holidays” instead of a Merry Christmas?
There are at least four holidays in the latter part of December — Christmas, Hanukkah and Solstice are religious, Kwanzaa is cultural — and retailers have a good business reason not to alienate part of their customer base.
NJLawyer, you won’t outdo my decorations. We celebrate Christmas in our house, to the hilt. We just don’t go around looking for reasons to be offended when we see others who don’t.
And that Christmas Tree was a pagan symbol long before Christians stole … er, adopted… it. That didn’t happen until the 19th century. Happy Solstice!
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NJLawyer, also, what do you mean “we can’t put up creches, why we can’t call a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree?” Who is stopping you from doing either of those?
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Well said (and well timed) Warren! A much needed prick for Christians who have gotten sloppy with their good intentions. I’m posting a paragraph of this on my blog on Monday (thebreadline.wordpress.com). yours by divine mercy, pdb
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Am I to suppose that no one has stopped to think about why Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25?
Indeed it is unlikely that Jesus was born in the winter season of the Northern hemisphere if the narratives we have been provided are to be given credence.
Which perhaps opens the question of precedence for this celebration at this time and who is trying to deflect who from what celebrations.
In short, I suggest Mr Smith is calling it just about right.
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You know what I mean, Conan! You know exactly what I mean! The secularists whine and distort the Constitution through lawsuits. They have no tolerance — they expect it, but they don’t have it. Not going any further on this. Whining is whining, and to say there has been no whining on the part of “non-Christians” is a lie, plain and simple. When I was a kid, there was nobody forcing anybody to participate in Christmas and we didn’t have to put up with all this nonsense.
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NJLawyer post 25,
no the secularists only take up law suits (and prevail) when Christians try to have the government push their Christianity for them.
There is no one who is keeping any Christian from personally celebrating Christmas pretty much in any way they wish.
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I agree with #26. Complaints from American Christians about what they are not “allowed” to do usually (maybe always) turn out to mean, we can’t co-opt government land or invoke government endorsement of our religion above other religions, or we’d like private businesses to indulge our preferences to the exclusion of their other customers.
So have a Merry Christmas, NJLawyer, but don’t whine so much.
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I like Christmas trees, lights, snow, feel good made for tv Christmas movies, gathering with family, Carols of all kinds, special Christmas food, Currier and Ives, etc. etc. However, I really don’t look at any of these things as especially pertaining to the birth of Christ (except some of the Carols).
I don’t have a problem if I’m wished “Happy Holidays” because I don’t think it’s a big deal to the Lord either. I don’t take it as an attack against Christianity per se, but rather that stores want to be more inclusive to make more sales.
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Hopesprings, I feel pretty much the same regarding “happy holidays.” Not a big deal for me, unless it becomes something that’s forced — I guess I just wish we were all more relaxed & tolerant with one another and not threatened or agitated by the public expression of a religious faith that we may not personally share. It is a season celebrating the Good News, a season of goodwill — and Christians should relay that spirit to all.
One of my favorite carols (hard to name one) is Joy to the World. Rejoice.
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I don’t mind “Happy Holidays” except when it is done purposefully to be PC. And, don’t tell me it isn’t. Many stores have MANDATED that their employees say it in order to not offend the 5% or so of non-Christmas celebrators.
I stand in line with Christmas ornaments, Christmas cards, Christmas lights, and a Christmas tree, and then I’m greeted with “Happy Holidays” because management has decided that the other greeting is “non-PC.”
Tell me…if someone co-opts my holiday because they like it (and I know that a number that do so. I even knew a semi-orthodox Jewish family who celebrated it, because they liked it), then they can’t take offense over the name. It is what it is.
I am not (nor is anyone else) buying a “winter” tree, or a “holiday wreath” or “holiday” cards with an angel and nativity scene all over them. That’s just silly, and changes the language to mean…nothing.
If I’m in line with no Christmas stuff and not wearing any Christmas stuff, go ahead and be inclusive and say, “Happy Holidays.” But, when 95% plus of your customers are celebrating Christmas, and when you’re making all your money selling Christmas things and Christmas presents, then don’t try to pretend that my holiday is equal with a small number of solstice celebrators, or the MINOR Jewish holiday of Chanukah.
I have no problem with you saying, “Happy New Year” to people in October celebrating the Jewish New Year (which IS a big deal to them), but don’t pretend that you’re selling a Christmas wreath to Buddhists.
And, if you are, it is still MY HOLIDAY that they are enjoying, and so they certainly shouldn’t be offended by hearing “Merry Christmas.”
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TRS post 30,
but I suggest Christians coopted a pagan holiday. Indeed most of what we consider as Christian celebrations (trees, fires. wrapping of presents, etc.) are indeed not Christian at all.
I always find it amusing when Christians complain that their holiday has been coopted, given the history of Christian coopting of this season for Christian purposes.
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The early Christians did co-opt in many ways — but it was an outgrowth of their new understanding that all the earth, and everything in it, belonged to God.
… Including some of the cultural rituals which they infused with new meaning in the light of the coming of Christ and the gospel — that was meant, after all, to be shared with all people in every nation across the entire world.
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Donna J post 32,
which is why I find it appropriate to consider this a holiday season which should be open to all who choose to celebrate in the way they choose.
And if Christians want to incorporate pagan traditions into their celebrations that is a good thing and if non-Christians want to incorporate these traditions into their celebrations that is also a good thing.
And at the end of the day we can all enjoy this holiday season.
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Donna J post 32,
P.S. although just perhaps there was an attempt by the early church fathers to try to work around the rather “exciting” aspects of the Saturnalia!
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So lets consider what happens if we turn our considerations of Christmas inside out.
The solstice comes on Dec 22 of every year, and the solstice has been since far before written history a celebration of new beginnings. Christmas is set on Dec 25, primarily because the Roman’s had their calendar mucked up.
We have no direct knowledge of when Christ was actually born: the narratives are not specific on this point, but it most plausibly was not in the winter if we are to accept the basic thread of the narratives.
Having said this, however, it leaves the question of when to celebrate Christ’s birth, and from a Christian perspective, what better time than at a traditional time of new beginnings?
And viewed in this manner, then much as I sense being expressed by Donna J, perhaps it means that all of us Christians or not can share in this holiday of new beginnings?
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CNN has been running various clips and stories about the Hajj this week. They explained the religious meaning of the Hajj and some of the rituals. Even the fact that it was raining on the holiday faithful in Saudi Arabia was considered significant news.
Has any news organization ever explained the meaning of Christmas?
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Musing, you lecture us with the same well worn arguments about the origins of Christmas every year. There is nothing new here.
It isn’t the war on Christmas that is the problem. It is the war on Christianity and the war on the freedom of religion that is the problem.
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xion post 36,
I suggest many times. There are many mass media activities and sometimes complete issues on Christmas. There are any number of educational materials on the web and on the TV which discuss this.
It is amusing when Christians accuse society of ignoring them: one thing which our society does not do is ignore Christians: it is embedded in some way in much of everything we do.
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xion post 37,
of course if Christians didn’t reintroduce the well work and much discussed arguments
then perhaps the discussion would change.
There is no war on Christianity.
It is a more interesting question on how history in general is treating fundamentalism, but fundamentalist Christianity is but one type of Christianity and they may comprise perhaps 1/3 of all Christians.
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It’s easy to dismiss the “War on Christmas” as a war on Christianity… but then you have to assume that God is not interested in history as well as the mixture involved in celebrating the holiday. What does the Bible say about mixture?
I think that we need to pay more attention to what’s challenging us and why… rather than just dismiss any clashes of conscience. If anyone doubts the commercialism of Christmas, just go to your local mall on Black Friday or a local church Christmas Bazaar. If there’s a time when there’s moneychangers are in the Temple of God that time is Christmas. Kudos, Mr. Smith. I agree with what you have to say, but I think we all should take a closer look at why these controversies are arising. Does anything happen without the involvement of God? Understandably many Christians assume an attack on Christmas is an attack on Christ. But is it? Have you asked HIM or are have you become bogged down by the traditions of man?
There is a reason that the materialism, commercialism and controversies are challenging us in this hour.
I believe that we (Christians) are being forced to confront the mixture involved in Christmas.
From its inception in 336 AD, Christmas has been a concoction of pre-existing pagan winter revels mixed with Christian subject matter. Even the term “Christmas” speaks of the bi-polar nature of the holiday. When people in America say “Christmas,” they are either talking about (1) the religious events surrounding Jesus’ birth, or (2) the secular stuff that predated Jesus Christ’s birth that was involved in celebrating the Winter Solstice (i.e. midwinter). The stuff most Christians love about Christmas: the lights, the evergreen decorations, the food, the music, the chance to get together with family and friends, and the special feeling of warmth that the season brings was assimilated into the Church in the 4th century. Translation: For the first 300 years of the Christian Church there was no Christmas.
If you’d like to learn more, please check out my book on Amazon: “Santa-tizing: What’s wrong with Christmas and how to clean it up” (www.santa-tizing.com). Having researched everything Christmas for over 10 years, I can guarantee that you will be intrigued and enlightened… and glad you did. Many historians stop investigating Christmas when they hit the Middle Ages. SANTA-TIZING traces Christmas all the way back to its origins in Babylon. Sure Christmas was not called “Christ mass” until the 11th century, but its winter celebration rituals can be traced back to Nimrod’s Tower of Babel.
Come walk on the revelatory side in an examination of America’s most loved holiday. Come and don’t forget your noggin, because critical thinking as well as discernment will be required.
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Santa-tizing, in your sentence “The stuff most Christians love about Christmas: the lights, the evergreen decorations, the food, the music, the chance to get together with family and friends, and the special feeling of warmth that the season brings was assimilated into the Church in the 4th century,” you list NOTHING that is controversial for Christians to include in their celebrations, with the possible exception of evergreen decorations, and in fact nothing that Christians don’t include in every celebration except lights and evergreens. In other words, while I mostly agree with the writer of this essay, I can’t agree that the celebration of a family holiday such as this one described is less than Christian.
And I’m nearly positive we have no record of celebrations at the tower of Babel, seeing that it was destroyed and languages confused at that time.
I don’t see a celebration of Jesus’ birth as biblically necessary. I think even for most Christians it’s mostly a chance to have a party and get together with family and friends. I think fighting over what unbelievers do with it is silly, even hypocritical (although I also think it’s stupid to pretend that all December holidays are culturally equivalent–obviously Christmas is the biggest holiday of the year, certainly the biggest of the month, for the vast majority of Americans). But I don’t think we can say it’s wrong to get together with family and friends, with decorations and friends and music, and give presents.
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I open presents on the day after Christmas, and save Christmas day to thank God for his Perfect Gift.
Whenever my dad opens presents he says: “The true meaning of Christmas” In a good joking voice!
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It’s articles like this that make me continue making World my homepage and worthy of my limited time. Thank you- I feel like I belonged with William Bradford’s community, when religious freedom was a privilege not taken for granted… and God’s Glory was the essence of our days.
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ps- having just read your thoughts
musing- there IS a war on christianity- I fight it daily in the teacher’s ed dept. at our local university. I appreciate the historical perspectives offered on christmas and am so glad this holiday does not define my faith- as it once had- being once “religious”, but the spirit has set me free from such traditional bondage.
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Who amongst you wants to hear “Oh, Little Town of Bethlehem” over the muzak from Nov. 1 through Dec. 24?
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Diedre post 43,
do you fight a war which asserts that Jesus did not live (the extreme version)? Are you fighting a war in which the classic Christian philosophy dating back to the early years of the 1st millenium are no longer taught?
Of course not. Christianity is a key component of our entire our entire culture.
And arguments about a war on Christianity would seem highly over played.
There is a war on rigid fundamentalism, not just of Christianity but of all religions: strict fundamentalism is facing a tough challenge in an evidence based world.
So unless you can be more specific, I suggest that the best I can respond to your post is:
1) Christianity is not under real attack
2) fundamentalism as a whole is failing, not just Christian fundamentalism
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Warren says,
“So when it comes to the culture war over holiday greetings, count me as a conscientious objector. I’m not a pacifist. It’s just that I’ve got more important battles to fight.”
Which battles? Warren explains,
“Huge challenges face our culture and the Christian church: abortion, pornography, same-sex marriage. These are battles worth fighting, battles we must win, battles with too few warriors in the fight.”
So its all about sex? I don’t read anywhere in the Bible that Christians are to march around condemning non-believers as part of some culture war.
Jesus spent his time preaching the truth about himself. He explained the world’s need for a Savior and how he would accomplish that. The mission of the church is to preach Christ, his birth, his life, his death and his resurrection. The gospel is good news, not the condemnation of culture and politics.
The entire OT is dedicated to foretelling of the coming Messiah (Gal 3:24). A virgin would conceive (Isaiah 7:14) and God would be manifest in the flesh as a babe (Isaiah 9:6) in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). He would be rejected (Isaiah 53) and crucified (Psalm 22) on Mt. Moriah (Gen 22:2) and save his people from their sins (Isaiah 12:2).
The real war is not a war on some overindulgent holiday. The real war is on Christ himself, whose name is synonymous with cursing. The world minimizes the greatest miracles in history: the Incarnation and the Resurrection, with a jolly old man and bunny rabbits.
Christians should be boldly proclaiming the true meaning of the Incarnation. This is far more important than waging a culture war, wagging a bony finger of condemnation at unbelievers for sexual sins.
“The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined … For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:2,6
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xion post 46,
but I suggest that no where in the Bible does it suggest that Jesus was born on December 25th.
By choosing what was a bad estimate of the solstice as the early Christian designation of Christmas, the early Christians also implicitly and explicitly established an environment where they would have to share this holiday with others (in many cases others were there first).
The issue I suggest is the sometimes near frantic insistence on the part of some Christians that this is their holiday. It is not, and by their choice of date they also must accept that they must share it.
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George Washington’s birthday is about the birth of George Washington regardless of the day it is celebrated on.
Christmas is about the birth of Christ. The rest is noise.
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2
“And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” Luke 2
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#44 Scroop,
OK. I confess. I do like to hear Christmas carols over the loudspeaker as I shop—even if it’s just muzak. But it would surely be much nicer if they didn’t start until two or three weeks before Christmas.
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Musing,
You couldn’t be more clueless about what the discussion is about if you tried.
It doesn’t matter that Christ was likely born in October, or that Christians took pagan customs and Christianized them. Or any of that (of which I probably know more than you do anyway.)
The point is that it IS a Christian holiday now and has been for a LONG time, and that retailers are selling 95% of what they sell because of Christmas (not because of some generic “holiday”) and they are forcing different words because of some “PC” idea of what is offensive.
If you (as a very, very, very Liberal Christian by any definition) or the semi-Orthodox Jewish family or the neighborhood Buddhist want to celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas…more power to you! I don’t care!
But, don’t try to tell me that you’re celebrating something else. Something “generic.” And, don’t be offended by hearing “Merry Christmas.”
Again, I’m not buying a “winter wreath” or “winter cards.” I’m buying a Christmas wreath and Christmas cards. So, celebrate or don’t, but call things what they are.
95% plus of Americans (NOT JUST “CONSERVATIVES”) celebrate Christmas. So, call it what it is.
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Okay, I looked it up.
96% of Americans celebrate Christmas. That is a VAST majority, not a “fundamentalist” minority.
So, call the holiday what it is. Stop trying to not “offend” the 4% (most of whom wouldn’t be offended anyway) while stepping all over the 96%.
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I appreciate what Cheryl D says. I agree that it’s not wrong to get together with family and friends, give presents, etc. These practices in and of themselves are not bad or wrong. BTW – One of my favorite things to do is to give gifts! I am just raising the issue of thinking about why we do the things we do and what’s behind these practices. Deception needs two things to exist: (1) ignorance and (2) obstinance. I just hope and pray that the Church is not too rigid to examine her deeds to see whether they are right and good in God’s eyes (not our own).
When I said: The stuff most Christians love about Christmas (the lights, the evergreen decorations, the food, the music, the chance to get together with family and friends, and the special feeling of warmth that the season brings) was assimilated into the Church in the 4th century, I was merely pointing out the root of these practices originated well before Christians even thought of celebrating Jesus’ birth. Do Christians get together with family and friends for special occasions? Of course, we do. But least we make an erroneous assumption please consider the extreme example that even alcoholics use the chance to get together as an excuse to justify what they do, because it’s a God-given drive common to man.
As for being “nearly positive we have no record of celebrations at the tower of Babel.” I wouldn’t be too quick to make this assumption. There are historical records about the Tower of Babel preserved by Hebraic scholars as well as others. That’s why when a Jewish person says that Christmas is Babylonian; they actually know what they are talking about. Here’s one example from their records that I have in my book SANTA-TIZING: “The year of the dispersion of the seventy nations from the Tower of Babel has been recorded to be 340 years after the Flood. As mentioned earlier, Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth were all still alive at this time; and Abraham was 48-years old.”
The very name by which Christmas is also known – Yule – or Yule-day or Yuletide Season – is literally linked to its Babylonian origins. In the ancient Chaldean language of Babylon, the word “Yule” is the name for an infant or little child. Throughout antiquity, all sun gods’ birthdays were celebrated on the ancient winter solstice – Dec. 25th – before the Roman shift in time. The first recorded sun god was Babylonian Tammuz – the son of Nimrod (the guy who led the rebellion at the Tower of Babel) and Semiramis (the Babylonian Queen of Heaven).
I can go on and on, but this comment is getting long and my time is getting short. Suffice it to say that far and wide, in the realms of ancient paganism, the birth of the son of the Babylonian Queen of Heaven (and Nimrod) was celebrated at the time of midwinter. Take for example how the 25th of December was called “Yule-day” by pagan Anglo-Saxons long before they came in contact with Christianity. Remnants of this ancient root are still evident in the Nordic people of Norway and Sweden. They declare “God Jul” (pronounced good yewl or good yeul) when they say the equivalent to “Merry Christmas.”
Robin Main
http://www.santa-tizing.com
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xion post 48,
did Americans appropriate another holiday to celebrate George Washington’s birthday on?
by contrast the record appears to show that Christians deliberately chose the solstice (or its Roman approximation) for Christmas.
As a minimum, Christians must now share it with all traditions which celebrate the solstice: Christmas is not “theirs”.
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TRS post 50,
now when you say:
“The point is that it IS a Christian holiday now and has been for a LONG time”
it has also been the holiday traditions for many others for much longer.
And again, by choosing the solstice for Christmas, as noted above, Christians now as a minimum must share it.
But we are seeing the proprietary perspective of some Christians regarding Christmas showing through very nicely.
Which I suggest does mean I have understood the discussion so far.
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TRS post 51,
95% of Americans celebrate Christmas as the druid holiday celebrating the solstice: fires, evergreen trees, lights, mistletoe, presents etc.
The number who celebrate it as the 4th century Christians did is, I suggest, very small.
But again we see the misunderstanding of some Christians in the belief that this is “their” holiday.
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I am truly amused at those who seem to be concerned when I suggest that Christians must share this holiday.
How Christians can hope to really lay claim to the solstice as “their” holiday is beyond me, but we have seen this clearly demonstrated in this discussion.
And amusingly, that the term Christmas has supplanted the solstice or yule tide itself demonstrates just how deeply Christianity is embedded in our society and how little Christianity per se is under attack.
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Good piece. It’s rare that I read a WMB post that I mostly agree with, but this is one of them.
Personally I’d add same-sex marriage to the list of “culture war” battles believers shouldn’t be participating in, but that’s my one point of disagreement.
I’d add, though, that anyone who agrees with Warren should devote some thought to whether organizations like the AFA (given their efforts on the “Christmas issue”) are really a “good thing” and worthy support. I happen to think they’re not.
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Christmas is not “theirs”.
Musing,
That’s funny. Days are not ‘owned’, but Christmas (Christ day) is when most Christians chose to celebrate Christ’s birth in the tradition of their fathers, which for most of us includes family visits, gifts, feasts, trees and lights. If your tradition is different knock yourself out–just don’t get burned dancing around the yule log.
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Christmas does belong to Christians. But Hannukkah belongs to Jews, Solstice and Saturnalia belong to neopagand, and Kwanzaa belongs to African-Americans and has cultural significance, though not religious. And as they are all celebrated in the same general time period, wishing “Happy Holidays” to someone when you’re not sure which of those they celebrate is appropriate.
Some Christians are apparently so insecure that they don’t want to have to be reminded that not everyone shares their faith. The posts in this thread, and other pieces I’ve read elsewhere, all sound like a childish tantrum. You’re grabbing all the winter holidays and yelling “MINE!” when anyone else comes looking for them.
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When I was a teen-ager, my mom invited me to come to their office Christmas party. This was up on Wilshire Blvd. in L.A. in the mid or late 1960s.
Anyway, she told me where to park and she was to meet me at the parking lot. My mom met me and at the same time the parking attendant came up to give me my ticket. He said, “Merry Christmas,” and I replied “Merry Christmas” in kind.
We took a few steps away when my mom grabbed me by my arm, chastising me because she said the man was Jewish. Well, how did I know??
Anyway, he didn’t seem offended but I also tend to say “happy holidays” these days if it’s not clear what the person I’m speaking to celebrates this time of year.
I still remember a Christian co-worker years ago who asked our managing editor (who was very openly and religiously Jewish) if his family had gotten their tree yet.
He came out of that office bright red, SO embarrassed. But our editor laughed, took it in good stride.
Still, my mom’s reaction so many years ago seemed a bit over the top to me, both then and now. I’m just saying we need to loosen up a bit, not be so quick to be offended (or to think we’re offending).
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DJ post 58,
excellent observation that days are not “owned”. From whence I suggest the rest follows and TRS and xion may perhaps be considered over reaching.
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So perhaps to nail this discussion down.
Victoria quite insightfully enjoined us in an earlier discussion to separate those aspects of Christianity which were enjoined by God from those which were the traditions of man.
It may be at times difficult to separate these two concepts.
In the case of Christmas, however, this is easy: the record makes it clear that Christmas is only the tradition of man.
Indeed several leaders in the early church as Christmas was being adopted were concerned about whether celebrating birthdays at all was biblically supported. And certainly effectively none of our present Christmas traditions are biblically inspired nor date from even the adoption of Christmas by Christianity in the fourth century (there may be one or perhaps two traditions which do come down from the fourth century).
So by all means we Christians can and arguably should celebrate Christmas.
But it is a mistake to consider:
1) that Christmas is “ours”
2) that the celebration is biblically or Christian inspired
3) that what we now think of as celebrating Christmas even in a Christian sense is anything other than a relatively recent set of human derived traditions.
And in insisting on the “Christmas wars” we are not celebrating Christianity: we are actually merely indulging our apparent obsessive need to participate in the culture wars.
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DJ post 58,
and the continuing lament about Christians not focusing on Christ’s birth at Christmas???
No, the culture has now adopted Christmas as the name for the season, and Christians should take heart that their name has now been culturally accepted: indeed it shows that there is no war against Christianity.
But having seen their name adopted to the season, Christians must still admit that this season is not “theirs”.
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DJ post 58,
and the continuing lament about Christians not focusing on Christ’s birth at Christmas???
No, the culture has now adopted Christmas as the name for the season, and Christians should take heart that their name has now been culturally accepted: indeed it shows that there is no war against Christianity.
But having seen their name adopted to the season, Christians must still admit that this season is not “theirs”.
Indeed, consider the term “xeroxing”, and Xerox does have a legal right to this word.
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and the continuing lament about Christians not focusing on Christ’s birth at Christmas???
Musing,
That is a lament by and for Christians, I think. It’s appropriate enough as a religious matter.
But I do agree with TRS in #50 when she says “it is a Christian holiday” in the sense that most people celebrate it with Christian elements and have for many, many years. A few other groups celebrating their holidays at the same time is not problematic to me. What is problematic is the enforced public pretense that Christmas doesn’t have distinctly Christian elements for the vast majority of the people.
And it is also inappropriate to try to force the majority to publically acknowledge every small minority in their celebration. Let each celebrate as they choose. Being in a minority group means that your cultural celebrations will necessarily be less known and not celebrated by most people, but that does not stop anyone from celebrating. Each community should decide what to put on their own public green based on the predominate celebrations of their own local populations. For some this mean public greens filled with Menorahs or Kwanzaa decorations or Santas or crèches. But the size and number of these should be determined locally—not by judicial fiat.
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DJ post 66,
which of course leads to my comments earlier aobut Christians celebrating Christmas in the traditional 4th century model.
So what of the celebration as Christians typically celebrate Christmas today is in the tradition of the fourth century when Christmas was first formally established as a Christian feast day?
By comparison, what are the traditions imported from the various solstice and yule celebratons?
And your answer?
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Let’s remember that many of the clerks & cashiers & waitresses who wish us “Happy Holidays” would probably rather say “Merry Christmas”, but have been ordered not to. So don’t take it out on them if you don’t like it.
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Ha! Musing, I am but a simple Christian. I can’t trace my linage back to the fourth century. I just know how my father and father’s father celebrated. There were always gifts and feasts and music and firelight and often trees from the surrounding woods—even if the feasts and gifts were simple. And Christmas has always been a time of celebrating the Savior’s birth in my memory, and in theirs. And the judicial injunctions used so frequently to keep tangible representations of that birth off public greens is a factual indication that those representations are generally (legally?) considered religious/Christian.
You might be interested to know that there are Christians who don’t put up trees because they consider them to be of pagan origin. I think yesterday’s WV has a post from one.
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Karen, you are right. So if one of them says ‘Happy Holidays’ I can smile and say ‘Merry Christmas’.
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DJ post 59,
then I will make it simple for you.
Traditional Christmas celebrations as specfied by the church included:
1) going to mass (there were 3)
2) performing no servile labor
Two other traditons which were present were:
a) singing carols
b) probably (unclear) eating
Christmas trees, fires in the fireplace (yule logs), presents, cards (and we can continue) are all solstice traditions.
NOw you suggest:
” just know how my father and father’s father celebrated. ”
which of course means then that you would appear to have no knowledge of what the original Christmas traditions are or what the non-Christian overlays might be.
Indeed I suggest that you are actually in the main celebrating the solstice with a veneer of Christianity overlayed on top.
And you would appear to then be supporting my observations that Christmas is in fact a mengae of multiple traditions, but that the Christian name, Christmas, has now been applied to these in the main non-Christian celebrations.
Also, you appeared to have confirmed my observaton that Christmas is a man made tradition, not a biblically invoked celebration.
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which of course means then that you would appear to have no knowledge of what the original Christmas traditions are or what the non-Christian overlays might be.
No, I don’t have a lot of knowledge of 4th century traditions. And I’m not generally concerned about ‘overlays’ that have no real meaning today. Cultural traditions come and go over time, but the scripture is a real stabilizing element in Christianity throughout all those cultural and traditional changes. Those older traditions can be interesting though; I should probably take the time to know more.
BTW, I don’t see any Biblical requirement to formally celebrate the birth of Christ.
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Also, I would suspect that such traditions became increasingly more subject to the interpretation of local churches and congregations after Luther.
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Musing, I agree with you that Christmas is not “a biblically invoked celebration”. It seems that the Lord was more concerned with us remembering His death and resurrection (which should, really, be a daily thing). I don’t see any biblical injunction to remember specific days per se.
However, I tend to view the celebration of Christmas as more of a cultural thing and have no problems with many of the traditions since I don’t necessarily equate them with Christ. Many of the carols sung are very biblical and honoring to Him, though.
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DJ post 72,
so then you would seem ot be in a positon to accept my characterizations of the celebration and where the components came from.
And you are correct as I noted earlier there is no biblical requirement to celebrate the birth of Christ: indeed celebrating Christmas is arguably un-Biblical (it was indeed so argued int he fourth century).
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DJ post 73,
further confirming that Christmas is a human tradition and that the Christmas celebration as practised has little to do with Biblcal Christianity.
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Hopespring post 74,
well and correcty stated.
which of course means that arguing that the traditions around the yule tide are being appropriated for non-Christian uses is indeed an empty argument.
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Musing,
As I said before, the problem is the enforced public pretense that Christmas doesn’t have distinctly Christian elements for the vast majority of the people. And the court’s interference in the local community’s wish to display appropriate representations of the celebration of the local residents in the form of the creche or other symbols. These judicial interferences in local celebrations are the real problem.
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DJ post 72,
no, it is this attempt by some to insist that Christmas must reflect Christian aspects which I suggest is the issue.
Now the courts interference comes directly from the first amendment: the state can not favor any religion.
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I find it reasonable that Christmas reflect something of the person for which the day is named….His birth perhaps. And it does. The continued denial of that fact is somewhat of a mystery to me.
And muzzling the vast majority of the population in their own public square could only be considered a support of the first amendment from a very Orwellian viewpoint, I think. Unfortunately we seem to have plenty of those on the bench.
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musing – “Now the courts interference comes directly from the first amendment: the state can not favor any religion. ”
No it is the far left judges reading into the first amendment something that is not there.
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DJ post 80,
reasonable to you perhaps, but apparenlty not to eh layering of non-Christian traditons on the celebration.
At this point Christmas is the european cultural name for the solstice period.
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No court ruling has ever infringed the right of people to put up Christian Christmas symbols, even public ones. If you want to put a creche in your church yard or your front lawn, in full view of the public, you are more than welcome to.
But that isn’t good enough, is it? Until the government can provide taxpayer-supported property and official endorsement of Christianity, some will continue to complain about imaginary oppression.
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Pastor Roy post 81,
but of course the constitution appoints the courts as arbiter of the interpretation of the constitution, not you.
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musing 11.30.09 AT 12:47 PM
Pastor Roy post 81,
but of course the constitution appoints the courts as arbiter of the interpretation of the constitution, not you
–
but the the courts do not have the write to rewrite the interpretation of the constitution
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Pastro Roy post 85,
actually that is what interpret means.
If it were written so as to not require interpretation, it would not go to the courts.:-)
What you appear to be really saying is that the courts have no right to disagree with you.
But you are not the courts, and I am sensing perhaps a weakness in your constitutional arugments now as well.
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musing – What you appear to be really saying is that the courts have no right to disagree with you
–
not at all when the courts ruling and views go against the constitution, they are wrong.
“But you are not the courts, and I am sensing perhaps a weakness in your constitutional arugments now as well”
The Courst are not god even if the left want them to be.
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Pastor Roy post 87,
but of course you are not God either.
Nor do you have the constitutional authority to interpret the constitution.
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“Nor do you have the constitutional authority to interpret the constitution” – wow so now we the people of this Nation do not have the right or the authority to interpret the constitution.
Since when?
“musing 11.30.09 AT 1:11 PM
Pastor Roy post 87,
but of course you are not God either.”
never said I was. But you and the left treat the far left Judges ruling as they came down from God him self
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Pastor Roy post 89,
Marbury vs. madison is usually the standard reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison
Based onthis it does not look to me like your interpretation ahs any legal standing, but perhaps I am in error.
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Pastor Roy post 89,
no actually we find the judicial findings to be the law as interpreted by the constitutionally instituted authority.
Perhaps you do not? Are you above the law?
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musing 11.30.09 AT 1:40 PM
Pastor Roy post 89,
no actually we find the judicial findings to be the law as interpreted by the constitutionally instituted authority.
Perhaps you do not? Are you above the law?
–
no one is above law even you far left judges that are reading into the constitution things that are not there in order to make laws.
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musing 11.30.09 AT 1:36 PM
Pastor Roy post 89,
Marbury vs. madison is usually the standard reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison
Based onthis it does not look to me like your interpretation ahs any legal standing, but perhaps I am in error.
—
an the courts got it wrong, which is nothing new for far left judges
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Pastor Roy post 92,
when you say:
“no one is above law ”
I reply, ah good, so you would seemingly then accept the legal right of courts to interpret the constitution.
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Pastor Roy post 93,
no by definition from the positon of legal validity, the supreme court got it right.
Now if you disagree, that is fine, but your recourse is then to appeal to the courts to change it.
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musing 11.30.09 AT 1:52 PM
Pastor Roy post 92,
when you say:
“no one is above law ”
I reply, ah good, so you would seemingly then accept the legal right of courts to interpret the constitution.
–
legal right yes not to rewrite it to fit their world views
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Pastor Roy post 93,
or you can push for a constitutional amendment to make your position the constituionally valid one.
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Pastor Roy post 96,
but they are not rewriting any laws.
there is controversy over the meaning and they adjudicate, just as they are constitutionally empowered to do.
that you disagree with their decision has no legal imp[act what so evr.
And you must either accept their legal positon as the state of the law, or you are aruging that you are above the law.
You can try to change the constituio or ask for a rehearing, but in the interim, the court findings are the law.
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“Pastor Roy post 96,
but they are not rewriting any laws.”
YEAH SURE
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Pastor Roy post 99,
if you disagree, then it woul dseem that we need to dig deeper into specifics if we are to move the discussion forward.
I believe this is in your shop, since you appear to be asserting thast the judiciary is rewriting rather than interpreting the laws.
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#55
Musing, you’re so far from understanding the conversation that I can’t even begin to address it.
I’m glad that Pastor Roy feels it’s worth his time to try and help you, but I’m afraid that he’s unlikely to make much headway.
Good luck, Pastor Roy.
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At this point Christmas is the european cultural name for the solstice period.
#82 Musing
We’ll have to agree to disagree I guess. That’s your view of Christmas, and as a matter of practice it’s a very minority view here in America. If you asked what the celebration of Christmas is about, the birth of Christ would be mentioned by most people. I doubt most people think of winter solstice at all on December 25th. But for those of you who do, I wish you much joy and many blessings in the coming season.
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That should have been a smiley face, not a laughing face.
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DJ post 103,
actually no, I base that statement on the complaints of Christians that Christmas has lost its religious meaning.
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TRS post 102,
since Pastor Roy seems unable to provide evidence for his claims, my sense is that perhaps it is Pastor Roy who does not understand the discussion.
For example, he does not seem to be able to demonstrate that the courts are rewriting laws, nor does he appear to accept that by law the court interpretation of the consittution is the legal status of the law (c.f. his challenge of Marbury vs. Madison).
One may disagree with the result, but the result is the law unless Congress intervenes as required to over turn the courts rulings OR the court hears a similar or the same case and changes its ruling.
The lack of understanding of our court systems by some conservatives would appear to be quite high.
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#101: How is Musing wrong? Is it not true that there are several religious holidays being celebrated in the latter part of December? Is it not true that merchants have a reasonable desire to not alienate some of their customers to indulge the childish insecurity of others (those who think they’re being insulted if they are wished a generic happy holidays rather than having their specific holiday named?)
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#104 I base that statement on the complaints of Christians that Christmas has lost its religious meaning.
Musing,
Oh. Well that’s an easy one: I’m afraid you’re basing your statement on a misunderstanding. The Christians who make that complaint are not happy about having to ’share’ the holiday with differing traditions since they may feel it dilutes the sacred aspects of the celebration. And many Christians dislike seeing the excesses that do sometimes accompany holidays—such as overeating, overspending, and yes, some even protest the trees. But the very fact that the public must contend with judicial fiats forcibly removing their crèches from the public greens is a proof of the Christian meaning inherent in the holiday for most people.
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DJ post 107,
when you say:
“The Christians who make that complaint are not happy about having to ’share’ the holiday with differing traditions since they may feel it dilutes the sacred aspects of the celebration.”
I believe you are echoing my points. Remember one of these differing traditions is celebration of the solstice as [articularly occurs i NOrthern Europe.
When you say:
“But the very fact that the public must contend with judicial fiats forcibly removing their crèches from the public greens is a proof of the Christian meaning inherent in the holiday for most people.”
I suggest rather it demonstrates that certain Christians seem to be intent on making a battle out of Christmas. See Warren Smith’s comments which started this discussion.
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If you already know that your creche isn’t legally allowed on the public green, and put it there anyway knowing you’re going to have to remove it, you’re basically trying to create something to be outraged about.
That’s not really the Christmas spirit now, is it?
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Conan,
You must know that creches were put there in the first place because it was the public tradition to do so. Only recently have judicial activists have been successful in removing them—by legal force. That’s not “creating something to be outraged about”.
Like I said before, each community should decide what to put on their own public green based on the predominate celebrations of their own local populations. For some this means public greens filled with Menorahs or Kwanzaa decorations or Santas or crèches. But the size and number of these should be determined locally—not by judicial fiat.(#66)
Little by litte communities are loosing their rights of self determination. This is just another example of it.
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conanthe librarian post 109,
perhaps it depends on what you mean by the Chrismas spirit?
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DJ: The First Amendment to our Constitution, and two centuries of judicial interpretation of it, have established the principle that the government should show neither favortism nor hostility to any specific religion.
In practice, that means there should be no creches, or menorahs, or pagan symbols, on the public green — but there should be no restriction on their display on private property, fully visible from the public green.
Communities do have majorities, but they also have minorities, and those minorities are just as American and just as entitled to not have the public green used to denigrate their religion as you are.
Why are some Christians so insecure that you think you’re somehow being wronged if you can’t harness the government to endorse your beliefs?
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musing 12.01.09 AT 8:36 AM
TRS post 102,
since Pastor Roy seems unable to provide evidence for his claims, my sense is that perhaps it is Pastor Roy who does not understand the discussion
–
you have a state Supreme court ordering the state to write a law in order to give the GLBT certain rights.
just because someone does not answer your question to your liken does not mean they do not understand the discussion,
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Pastor Roy post 112,
actualy not requiring that they pass a law, but rather if they do not pass a law, then specific civil liberty procedures will be in effect.
This is what happened in Massachusetts.
I agree that if you do not answer my question it does not mean you do not understand the discussion. If you do answer my question and respond with a rehash of “its the way it is, because it is the way it is” without evidence, then I suggest you are open to being argued that you do not understand the discussion.
You appear in your posts to have a very cavalier attitude towards evidence: just because you say it is true does not make it true, nor does it mean that others have to agree with you if it is an opinion.
And to compound this approach with arguments about God’s word and eternal juidgement is, I suggest, a bit over the top.
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I think the point here is that this issue is more of a distraction and a hollow win if we get the GAP to say Merry Christmas instead of Season’s Greetings.
Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis has a great cartoon about this. It shows two castles – Christianity and Secularism. The Secularists send up balloons like “Gay rights” and “no prayer in school” while blasting away at the foundation – the sufficiency of Scripture. Christians in the cartoons are too busy shooting the balloons and celebrating when one “pops” than to protecting the foundation.
These issues are a distraction and make Christians look just as small and petty as people think they are. We do have greater battles to fight and that is the eternal soul of every person.
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I am a Conservative Christian, probably more so than most of those on this blog. That said, I do not care whether the store clerk says “Marry Christmas”, “Happy Holidays” or “Thank you for shopping here”. Most of them are not sincere but are told what to say to customers. As long as they sound polite and not rude, they can say “Get out of the next customer’s way” for all I care.
As Musing hinted way back toward the top of this thread, Christmas is celebrated in December as a replacement for Saturnalia, and drunken orgy celebrated in Roman times, honoring the sun god Saturn. The Roman Catholic “church”, after gaining political control of the empire, had to make the celebration “christian”, since “Christianity” was the state religion. If Jesus had been born in December, the shepherds would not have been watching their flocks by night out in the fields. It gets awfully cold in Israel, even though it is a desert. No, in December the shepherds kept the flocks in the stables and stayed indoors themselves, like the rest of us do when it is cold out.
So, AFA, find something more important to complain about, like the retailers stealing the joy of the season in the first place, making us feel guilty if we don’t buy the right present for our family and friends.
Anyone want gift ideas? Check out this list.
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The energy expended in battles over how our culture should regard and respect Christmas is oddly asymmetric to what goes into Easter/Resurrection Day. As someone wiser than I put it, “Take away the stories of Jesus’s birth, and you lose only two chapters of Matthew and two of Luke. Take away the resurrection, and you lose the entire New Testament and most of the second-century fathers as well.” I’m not a Plymouth Brethren type, but this does seem like an odd battle considering the emphasis of our gospel.
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SG,
Perhaps we’re just quarrelsome. I stirred the pot yesterday, but I’m not jumping in the brew today….well maybe just one toe– You do have a point about Christmas vs Easter. But one reason there is so little debate over it may be that the church has already embraced the Easter bunny, so what’s to argue about. Many churches have Easter egg hunts. I’m not saying that’s a good thing or bad; but that’s the way it is.
Peter,
I tried to comment, lost it and re-wrote. So you might have one or two or no comments from me.
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Christians should stop purchasing items that are extraneous at best. Treat this as an extended President’s day sale event and observe the holiday much like Thanksgiving, except have our focus on Christ and remembering James 1:27, “This is pure and undefiled religion, to visit widows and orphans in the their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
By observing the largess of Christmas, I don’t think we are doing a good job of keeping ourselves unstained.
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