Whirled worldviews
If I believed in coincidence, I might wonder at the following circumstances, all of which occurred within 12 hours of each other:
- We watched Ben Stein’s documentary Expelled about scientists fired and blacklisted for suggesting the possibility of Intelligent Design.
- Going through some old papers (while watching the movie), I came upon one of Janie B. Cheaney’s essays in WORLD, which referred to Richard Dawkins as “perhaps the world’s most famous skeptic.” Dawkins is both heavily referenced and personally interviewed in Expelled.
- I read that WORLD’s Daniel of the Year is Intelligent Design proponent Stephen C. Meyer, a scientist also featured in the Stein documentary and author of Signature of the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design.
- First thing Tuesday morning I found three news media alerts pertaining to “Climategate,” in my in-box.
Perhaps I see the connections among these topics with particular clarity because I have been in a several-months-long debate with a person dear to me. We’ll call her Dot.
Dot used to be a believer but “lost” her faith at a secular university while studying biology. She now teaches science to eighth graders and considers her position vital to the community in which she teaches. Making sure I am crystal clear on the fact she teaches evolution, Dot now claims she is a Buddhist, yet admits not so much a disbelief in God as much as anger toward Him. Like many who eschew Christianity, she throws the typical accusations toward God: “Why is there suffering in the world?” “Why is there war?” “Why do babies die?”
Chuck Colson, in a recent Christianity Today article titled “When Atheists Believe,” offers one way to find the answer:
“I’ve been teaching students . . . to draw a grid listing the four basic questions that most people ask about life: Where did I come from? What’s my purpose? Why is there sin and suffering? Is redemption possible? Then, on the other side of the matrix, we list the various philosophies and prominent world religions. By examining how each view answers the four questions, we can determine which worldviews conform to the way things really are. This is a correspondence theory of truth—a thoroughly rational test.”
Such questions might help my friend sort her thoughts. I learned in my philosophy class at Biola University that an inconsistent worldview is a flawed worldview. Stein’s documentary shows a strong connection between Darwin’s concept of “survival of the fittest” and Hitler’s ethnic cleansing. I doubt if my friend, married to an African-American, would recognize that by embracing Darwin she unwittingly embraces Hitler’s racism or that such a dichotomy in her worldview might shed light on other inconsistencies.
This all begs the question, is modern science truly the search for factual, observable truth? Even some within the scientific field say no: “It is a worldview conflict between scientists with two competing worldviews,” said Oxford mathematics professor John Lennox. “Worldview comes first and is influencing the interpretation of science. Admitting our biases is the best way toward rational discussion, which I would welcome.”
So, as we continue to monitor the aftershocks of Climategate, I wonder if scientists and those like my friend Dot will continue their “science is objective” rhetoric, admitting evolution is—like my 7-year-old innocently answered when I asked her what evolution was—“some sort of religion.” Or will they, in word and deed, prove to us that they actually do want to discover truth, even if it—gasp!—points to a Creator.

















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back to top57 Comments to “Whirled worldviews”
(Insert obligatory comment about Planned Parenthood founder’s racist views here)
Hitler was also a vegetarian teatotaler who passed laws which outlawed game hunting in the Reich. The nazis also began an aggressive anti-smoking campaign and even required “contains caffeine” health warning paper labels around the necks of Coca Cola bottles.
One mustnt throw the baby out with the bath water!
(sarcasm now off)
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We tend to think of worldviews in terms of intellectual awareness. That certainly is an important consideration. But I believe that the real barrier to evaluating why and what people believe is spiritual. Satan blinds the eyes of the unbelieving. Of course there are some who cannot see that truth, and their arguments against it are only philosophical (intellectual).
I usually forget that my best arguments are faithful prayer and Christ-like behavior. Both of these are primarily spiritual in their origin and influence.
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I think that the answer to “Why does God let…?” or any variation thereof is deliberate overlooking the obvious answer; “Because He gave man the free will to do as he wished to do.”
Most would deny this, because it is like a sharp two-edged sword peircing their heart. (God is to blame, I’m not!)
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(1) People tend to ask the wrong questions. When 9/11 happened, the right question was not, why did God let it happen, but why didn’t God let it happen to me? (Luke 13:4 – Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them–do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?)
(2) People are prideful. With a few notable exceptions (C.S. Lewis), they cannot be reasoned into the Kingdom. Hence the old saying, A man convinced against his will, holds his original opinion still.
(3) Which brings up Fisherman’s point, if I could re-cast it: man’s problem with God is not so much intellectual as psychological: fallen man simply does not like God because God is holy.
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“Stein’s documentary shows a strong connection between Darwin’s concept of “survival of the fittest” and Hitler’s ethnic cleansing. I doubt if my friend, married to an African-American, would recognize that by embracing Darwin she unwittingly embraces Hitler’s racism or that such a dichotomy in her worldview might shed light on other inconsistencies.”
Wow have you been taken in by Mr. Stein. First, Hitler was a murderous, megalomaniac who professed to be a Christian, but who clearly was not. In Mein Kampf Hitler invokes the name of our Lord Jesus Christ nearly fifty times. He mentions Darwin – zero times. He also believed in something that has been regrettably labeled “Social Darwinism” which is about as far from Darwin’s theory of biological evolution as one can get. Darwin was not a racist (his family were abolitionists who oppossed the subjugation of people). Second, the Bible and separate creation were often invoked to support racism. There are many people today who feel that some races of humans were separately created, and therefore less worthy than some others. Thankfully your firend is not among them.
Most importantly the validity of scientific theory should not be entrusted to how it is interpretted by German dictators. As noted above, Hitler was a vegetarian and a teatotaler. Are we to associate these two things with the Nazis and racism as well?
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Mafarmerga – you’re point is well taken that “validity of scientific theory should not be entrusted to how it is interpretted by German dictators.” Indeed, this is the fallacy of consequentialism, and it is undoubtedly the weakest part of Ben Stein’s otherwise compelling film about academic and journalistic blacklisting. As a point of clarification, however, I would note that (a) one would be hard-pressed to find any scriptural support for racism, and there are passages of the Bible which forbid discrimination among persons and clarify that all humans are made in God’s image; whereas (b) the theory of evolution is entirely consistent with racism.
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Has “solon” aka Peter Leavitt come back to possess us again.
Evolution is not the cause of Nazi beliefs and not the cause of Hitler being a monster. There have been monsters who called themselves Christians. There have been monsters who called themselves Nazis. There have been Nazis who called themselves Communists. There have been monsters who called themselves atheists.
I would think that being so incoherent as many people at worldmagblog are would be painful, but apparently not.
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Of course there have been monsters who claim to be Christians. But could it be that in their being monsters they are demonstrating that they are in fact not Christians.
Is it incoherent to not be able to see something that Amy did not say, namely that “evolution is __ the cause of Nazi beliefs.”
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Buzzy I “sorta” agree with you. I believe that Jesus teaches racial equality but there are lots of places in the old testament where one is encouraged to smite others, simply because they are different. I call myself a Christian because I try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ. But the old testament? Dude there are a LOT of problems there.
Second with regards to the theory of evolution being “entirely consistent with racism.” I strongly disagree. Natural selection, by its very definition is agnostic and blind. Racism implicitly requires a BIAS against one group or another. Since natural selection claims no bias other than which organism is best suited to survive and reproduce in a given environment, it cannot be labled as “racist”.
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BTW Whether appropriate or not, I stand by my statement that the Bible WAS invoked to support racism in the U.S. The historical facts here are clear.
I do not support that position. I agree with the teachings of Christ. However it is absolutely clear that others have cloaked their racism in their faith.
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#9:
The Full Title of Darwin’s famous book: “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”
*cough*
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Not disputed. Certainly some people somewhere did so. But I got what I wanted: Thomas pointed to two verses that were apparently historically used to justify racist attitudes. No wonder I’d never seen it. Such a ridiculous interpretation would be funny if it hadn’t been actually used for something so wrong.
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The Old Testament requires thought and understanding of context, both Biblical and cultural, to fit nicely with the New. I’d be interested to hear about these “problems” you mention. I’ve looked at some before, when they’ve been brought up, and I haven’t had much trouble with them.
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mafarmerga – two things. First, I’d like to know what verses in the O.T. encourages smiting of others “simply because they are different.” I personally have never seen one. There is a difference between an order to kill so as to purge evil from the land, and an order to kill simply because of someone being different.
Second, you say evolution is agnostic and blind. While I might not have used those exact words (I would have said it is non-teleological – it does not have an end purpose, but rather describes constant adaptation to a constantly changing environment), I do agree with your essential point here. However, I think you misunderstood mine. I was not intenting to speak of “bias” for or against a group. Rather, by “racism” I had a broader definition in mind – namely, that the races are or may be different in terms of evolutionary development (something I would vehemently deny). Under that broader view of racism, I think evolution is entirely consistent with racism.
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Mafarmerga – one last thing: You said the O.T. has a lot of problems, but you also said you “agree with the teachings of Christ.” (Likewise, “I call myself a Christian because I try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ.”). If you take a fair, in-depth look at what Christ taught about the O.T., I think you’ll find he affirmed it as the Word of God.
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Odd post by Random who usually condemns Christianity for the acts of people who don’t truly follow it as is evidenced by their evil acts.
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Years ago, many scientists, on the basis of accepting Darwin’s ideas, believed that the Aborigines were the missing link between modern Caucasian man and his so-called “ape-like” ancestor.
“Specimens” of Aborigines were sought-after by museums for evolutionary research. Some scientists even encouraged people to travel to Australia to hunt down and KILL Aborigines so they could bring their skulls and skins back to museums. Thousands of Aborigines of all ages—men, women, and CHILDREN—were KILLED and used as research specimens this way.
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I wonder how many of those Aborigines “SPECIMENS” are still being used in museums today under the name of “proof” of evolution.
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Catlover writes:
“The Full Title of Darwin’s famous book: “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.” *cough*
Wow, OK you got me! Oh, except for the fact that EVERY scholar (secular or not) acknowledges that in 1859 the phrase “Favoured Races” means “successful varieties” You wouldn’t be trying to interpret things out of context would you?
With regards to passages in the OT that specifically state that people should be treated differently solely based on their nationality let’s look at some passages:
Leviticus 25:44-46
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
We are authorized to treat others badly, but not our relatives. Good to know.
Exodus 21:2-6
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
Pretty harsh treatment for a guy who simply loves his wife and family. “Family values” ca. 1000 B.C.?
Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
Wow. Glad we got that cleared up. But I’m still confused. What if they live for two days after the beating and THEN they die?
You claim to “haven’t had much trouble with them.” which leaves me wondering about your current stance on slavery. I for one do not support the institution, even if the OT condones it.
I don’t think Jesus would either!!
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Mafarmerga – you are not the first person to notice that the Bible has some “hard sayings.” Scholars have looked into these things for centuries, and I suggest that you take some time to honestly inquire into how these passages fit into the full revelation and redemptive plan of God. In the mean time, you haven’t answered my observation that, while you claim to follow Jesus’ teachings, Jesus affirmed the O.T. as the word of God. Your position seems to be N.T.-good, O.T.-bad, which does violence to the unity of Scripture and to Christ’s teachings. As for the portions you quote, they are part of the O.T. law, and here is what Jesus said about it in Matthew 5: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Buzzy,
I have indeed taken the time to “honestly inquire into how these passages fit into the full revelation and redemptive plan of God.”
I have come to the personal conclusion that much of what is written in the old testament is in stark opposition to the teachings of Christ. They are parables written by falable men that established rules of law that may have been appropriate for the time, but I see a big disconnect between what is written in the OT and the teachings of Jesus as conveyed in the NT.
It is one of many reasons that I do not susbscribe to a literal reading of the Bible. By extension it is also why I do not perceive a conflict between my faith and my understanding and acceptance of evolutionary theory (the idea that started this thread).
So before we veer completely off track into a discussion of my relative treatments of the OT vs. the NT, let’s see if we can agree that the supposed link between evolutionary theory and the rise of Hitler and the Nazis is a completely bogus claim and that Ben Stein is being inherently dishonest in making it.
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Buzzy writes:
“I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,”
How do you reconcile that statement with:
Exodus 31:12-15
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’
Would you include health care workers, police officers, soldiers, air traffic controlers in that category? Do you practice this strict obedience to this law yourself? Ever go to a restaurant on the Sabbath? Should the waiters and cooks pay for your transgressions with their lives?
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Let’s see if we can agree that the supposed link between evolutionary theory and the rise of Hitler and the Nazis is a completely bogus claim and that Ben Stein is being inherently dishonest in making it.
In post #6 I said: “Your point is well taken that ‘validity of scientific theory should not be entrusted to how it is interpretted by German dictators.’ Indeed, this is the fallacy of consequentialism, and it is undoubtedly the weakest part of Ben Stein’s otherwise compelling film about academic and journalistic blacklisting.”
I don’t think that’s the same as saying that any link between evolutionary theory and Nazi ideology is “bogus.” Stein presents some proofs that the Nazis were motivated by, or at least used, evolutionary theory to their advantage, and therefore there may be some link. Again, however, this does not mean that one can disprove evolution by showing that bad people have used it for their own purposes, any more than one can disprove the Bible by showing bad people have used it for their purposes. (I believe you made that point earlier.) Thus, unlike you, I do not pass judgment on Ben Stein’s honesty, but rather, his logic.
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So again I ask for the third time, if you really subscribe to Christ’s teachings (as you have said many times now), how can you reject the O.T. when Christ himself affirmed its truth? Or are you merely cherry-picking the teachings of Christ that conform to you existing philosophy?
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Buzzy ” are you merely cherry-picking the teachings of Christ that conform to you existing philosophy?”
In that I DO reject many of the rules of the OT (e.g. stoning of female non-virgins, owning of slaves, gang raping of wives for the sins of their husbands, etc.) even if Jesus says such rules should remain in place until “until heaven and earth disappear,” then yes, I suppose you could label my position as cherry-picking.
To ask your same question of yourself. Do you subscribe to all the laws spelled out in the OT, including the ones I have mentioned (e.g. resting on the Sabbath, death sentence for pre-marital sex)? Or are you practicing your own form of cherry picking?
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Well, you ask some good questions. I don’t do violence to the Scriptures by saying the old stuff isn’t inspired, but the new stuff is (except for the portion of new stuff that reaffirms the old stuff). I think it’s all divinely inspired, true, and infallible. That said, I am also aware of certain rules being given to the ancient Israelites that were given to them for a specific purpose that prevailed at that time in redemptive history, and that I am not living in ancient Israel, so they may not apply to me – although they are not inconsistent with the character of God because God gave them. Specifically, from what I can discern and have learned from people much smarter than me, there are at least three types of law in the O.T., ceremonial, civil (to include criminal), and moral. The moral law applies always and everywhere, because it is inherent in the character of God himself; this universal application cannot be said of the ceremonial law or ancient-Israelite civil law. The moral law is primarily contained in the Ten Commandments, although some have pointed out that Jesus specifically articulated the continuing binding nature of only nine of them, the sole exception being the Sabbath; the theory I have heard some express on that subject is that Jesus’ life inside the believer is the eternal Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews 3-4, and so, it replaces the sabbath of the ten commandmants. I am not totally convinced of this, and so I try to keep the Sabbath to be on the safe side. Of course, I may not keep it perfectly, even as I don’t keep any moral law perfectly, hence my need for Christ’s atoning blood on my behalf. Additionally, I would not take it upon myself to kill anyone who breaks the sabbath, for multiple reasons. The “kill” command isn’t in the Ten Commandments, and additionally, the N.T. says to obey the civil law of where you live — and in my state killing is illegal. This is a very involved subject, and I admit I can’t do it justice here. The main point, though, is that I don’t believe I’m cherry-picking or rejecting any part of the Bible, but rather, distinguishing among (without rejecting) the various types of O.T. commands based on their present-day applicability, rather than based on my own subjective preferences.
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#19: I was just making an observation.
Darwin himself, I understand, wasn’t very racist, but there is an entire article on Wikipedia about “scientific racism.” Good place to start looking. I’m just saying. A few people like to bring up the idea that some Christians in the 1800s used a Bible verse to “prove” that racism was acceptable, and then say that that makes God racist. So: there you go. What goes around, etc.
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Mafarmerga, Revisionist
Darwin wrote, “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”
Charles Darwin, “The Descent of Man”, 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178
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A more scholarly discussion here: http://www.discovery.org/a/9171
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Re: Slavery
1. The slavery in OT times was very different from the racial exploitation of the past few centuries, and was likely more like what we would call either indentured servitude (voluntary), or occupation – forced labor (a’la Roman empire). The Bible must be understood in the context of the culture. In no case does the Bible promote inhumane treatment of the innocent.
2. “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
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“Darwin wrote, ‘At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world.’”
An honest discussion of this is to be found here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/2009_03.html
Darwin was not perfect, by any means. But even this passage doesn’t mean what creationists insist it means. He wasn’t being prescriptive, merely predictive.
And his racism seemed to be more of a cultural racism than a biological one. He was a member of Europe’s upper class, and tended to view non-Europeans as uncivilized — “savages”.
But even if Darwin had been a virulent racist, it would have no bearing on whether evolution is true, as all the evidence of the past 150 years shows that it is.
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#30: interesting points.
#31: I heard rumored that Darwin had abolitionist leanings? I couldn’t be certain, though, if that was only liberals revising history to flatter a hero. It matters little. Whatever Darwin thought or didn’t think: evolution as an idea is separate. And very conducive to racist thought. Not a necessarily racist ideology, per se, but it’s certainly not hard to see why the advent of Darwinism didn’t signal the end of racism.
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GalapagosPete – not sure what evidence you have in mind, since you don’t say. While micro-evolution (small changes and cyclical variations within a species) certainly seems borne out by the empirical evidence, there is a dearth of evidence for macroevolution (changing from one species into an entirely different species through evolution). Care to share any with us?
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“…evolution as an idea is separate. And very conducive to racist thought.”
Really? Why do you say that? At heart, all evolutionary theory says is that random changes that cause an organism to be more successful in a given environment can and often are passed down to that organism’s descendants so that they too will be successful.
Even if you disagree with evolutionary theory, how is it conducive to racism?
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The bottom line is that it matters not what you, I, Darwin, Hitler, or Ben Stein think. The reality is that biological evolution (much as Darwin described it) continues on, heedless of mankind’s perception of it. The same is true for gravity and heliocentrism.
The only real concern is how mankind reacts to this reality of God’s work. Will we ignore it? Deny it? Try to keep others form understanding it? To do any of these things is to deny the reality of the universe and to do a disservice to mankind and to God.
Scientists push so hard against this mindset, not because we try to challenge God, but because the actions of men who reject natural law, can have such a negative effect on God’s creation.
The promotion of ignorance and denial is a poor way of expressing faith in God. This is what I feel lies at the heart of Ben Stein’s movie. He is quoted as saying “Science leads you to killing people” Has a more untrue statement EVER been uttered?
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The “promotion of ignorance and denial” is exactly what Ben Stein’s movie is all about. People who hold to evolution essentially as a religion, feel compelled to promote it no matter what the evidence shows (and again, evidence of macroevolution is sorely missing), and pretend to be experts in fields in which they have no expertise (e.g., Dawkins trying to be a philosopher). When evidence for I.D. comes along, the evolution-religionists have to do into deep denial, to the point of blacklisting. Again, that’s what Ben Stein’s movie was all about. Because the evolution-religionists don’t have good answers to Stein’s points, they resort to ad hominem abusive attacks, as is readily apparent from this blog.
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On the topic of “promoting ignorance,” I find Mafarmerga’s remarks particularly ironic. I have never heard someone who considers I.D. a possibility attempt to silence the teaching of evolution as a theory, or the teaching of the controversy. Evolutionists, on the other hand, are all about silencing any mention of I.D. and its arguments, or even teaching the controversy. They have been successful largely due to the religious fanaticism of the evolutionists, and not because the scientific arguments underlying I.D. lack merit. This leaves students totally ignorant of the real arguments and issues involved. Again … this type of promotion of ignorance (by the evolutionsts) is exactly what Stein’s movie exposes.
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The credibililty of Stein’s movie depended on the merit of the “Sternberg was blacklisted for publishing an ID article” claim. This was its main embarrassment (see part 2).
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Ms. Henry’s original post impugning scientific objectivity in general on the basis of “climategate” requires a breathlessly sweeping gesture that’s likely beyond what most who think about the subject are capable of :~)
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“The “promotion of ignorance and denial” is exactly what Ben Stein’s movie is all about. People who hold to evolution essentially as a religion,”
Faith is something that is accepted without proof. Science is just the opposite. A good scientist will change their mind tomorrow if the evidence is compelling.
“.. feel compelled to promote it no matter what the evidence shows…”
WHAT evidence? There is none for ID. There is not even a testable theory. Even ID proponents like Paul Nelson admit as much.
“(and again, evidence of macroevolution is sorely missing)…”
A canard. There is essentially no difference between micro and macro evolution. They are the same thing with an arbitrary boundry drawn for creationist-lite to seek comfort in.
“…and pretend to be experts in fields in which they have no expertise (e.g., Dawkins trying to be a philosopher).”
Or Stephen Meyer, David Berlinski, and Ben Stein pretending to be scientists.
“When evidence for I.D. comes along, the evolution-religionists have to do into deep denial, to the point of blacklisting.”
Again what evidence? The argument boils down to “We should not let the scientific community determine what is, and what is not, science. The scientifically illiterate should be left to make that determination!” Sorry, but no, we are not prepared to cede that point.
“Again, that’s what Ben Stein’s movie was all about. Because the evolution-religionists don’t have good answers to Stein’s points, they resort to ad hominem abusive attacks, as is readily apparent from this blog.”
I admit to having lost respect for Ben Stein but I have not resorted to insulting him or anyone else. I simply take exception to his atempts to promote his philosophy under guise of scientific controversy.
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But there is a legitimate scientific controversy, as illustrated by numerous books and peer-reviewed journal articles providing mathematical and scientific evidence and argumentation that design underlies the complexities of the biological structures that exist, and that they could not have devloped through merely random processes during the lifespan of this universe. What you have to realize is that evolution is a religious establishment in which people are deeply invested. As with other religious establishments throughout the centuries, it will suppress any dissent and silence opposing views in order to retain its power. That’s what we are seeing in the censoring, by the government/academic complex, of the arguments and evidence for I.D. It’s all religiously-based censorship, based on intolerance for any questioning of the reigning orthodoxy.
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Buzzy writes:
“But there is a legitimate scientific controversy, as illustrated by numerous books and peer-reviewed journal articles providing mathematical and scientific evidence and argumentation that design underlies the complexities of the biological structures that exist, and that they could not have devloped through merely random processes during the lifespan of this universe. ”
NO. There is NOT. Even if a million Ph.D.s all wrote a book expressing their doubts about biological evolution that is not in any way equal to a single piece of hard data. There simply are not “numerous…peer reviewed journal articles” that support ID creationism that contain any credible data. If there are please tell me what they are. I have read many that purport to be such but that lack any credible data, just unanswered questions. And finally NO ONE claims biological diversity to be the result of purely “random” events. Selection is very non-random. This is another canard.
“It’s all religiously-based censorship, based on intolerance for any questioning of the reigning orthodoxy. ”
No, it is not. To open the door of our science classrooms to ID creationism will require us to open the door to the flying spaghetti monster, and any other “challenge to Darwin” somebody thinks up. Certainly some Darwinian ideas have been validly challenged by the data (e.g. strict gradualism vs. punctuated equilibria) but it is data that wins the argument, not rhetoric.
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A person can win any argument if they define their own terms. It is impossible to reasonably discuss an issue without understanding each others term definitions.
Mafarmerga defines “faith” in a way that many Christians would not. (There is a great deal of evidence for our faith) And he defines “data” as “credible data”. It appears to me that this particular back and forth is dead in the water.
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It does indeed appear dead in the water. When only one side is imposing censorship (the evolutionist side), and they control all levers of power, and make absurd comparisons (e.g., mafarmerga’s spaghetti monstor) to justify their censorship, there is no room for reasonable debate left. In the end, evolution will go the way of phrenology, it’s just a matter of time. In the mean while, darkness reigns in the halls of “science.”
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And, contrary to what mafarmerga says, it is not a “canard” to observe that, under evolutionary theory all complexity is the result of purely random processes. mafarmerga says selection is also involved, but what power does natural selection have to create anything, let alone anything complex? Clearly none. While evolution says that natural selection is the mechanism by which already-existing complex organisms survive while those that are less well adapted to their environment do not, it does not place any power in selection to create complexity, which in any event would be totally illogical. So, we are left with only random mutations to go (a) from no life to life, (b) from amino acids to a fully functioning cell (as complex as that is), and (c) from a single-celled organism to an elephant. I guess it’s also possible that boulders can spontaneously roll uphill if all their molecules align just right, and if you come across writing in the sand that says “If you want to get something done, you should ask a busy person,” that the waves randomly created those letters in that sequence (far less complex than a single DNA molecule that programs the creation of a needed protein), but as a practical matter it simply ain’t gonna happen in the life span of this universe.
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For his entire life (and well after his death) many felt that Alfred Wegener was crazy for proposing the concept of continental drift. In the end it was the evidence (and by that fisherman, I mean evidence that can be independently and objectively verified) that showed Wegener to be correct and his critics to be wrong. To quote another great scientific radical “E pur si muove”
Buzzy, to compare Darwinian evolution to phrenology is just silly, but I suspect you already know that. You are just saying it to score points for anyone left following this thread.
I leave you all content in the knowledge that I still have faith in God the Creator of all while at the same time I acknowledge God’s work. I will endeavor to better understand it, rather than deny it.
When you have evidence of ID drop me a line at mafarmerga@yahoo.com
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
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You ask for evidence of I.D.? Simply look at creation. You call my comparison silly while comparing I.D. to the flying spaghetti monster. Interesting. I suppose the “good night” sign-off is an assertion that you have the last word. So be it.
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Raising the censorship flag as an explanation for intellectual impotence is the kind of approach employed by histrionic propagandists like Stein. Though the color of this flag is white, out of what is a very sincere but misguided concern, many Christians seem too eager to march beneath it. They’re still vexed by the lie (one very vocally promoted by evangelistic atheists like Dawkins) that evolution necessitates an atheistic world view. Once this falsehood is dispelled, the core motivation for Philip Johnson’s ideologically driven agenda for ID evaporates.
ID was never conceived as, and cannot sustain itself as, a scientific program. It fails up front as a scientific theory by failing to generate predictions and approaches that fruitfully inform or make sense of any coherent body of experimental observations. The best it can do is revel in fits of personal incredulity (a flagellum here, a clotting cascade there). But these hurrahs are increasingly temporary, and shouted from increasingly small bits of territory. The complexity of the bacterial flagella and elegance of clotting cascades (Behe’s irreducible outposts) have since been better explained by testable predictions about the the DNA sequences of the proteins involved, predictions based in evolutionary theory.
Instead of running up the censorship flag of surrender and calling it brave, wouldn’t it make more sense to call the enemy’s bluff? Their fundamental proposition fails, not because evolution is false, but because the assertion that evolution crowds out God is a lie. If you start out by believing that one, you’ve lost right up front.
Regards,
SG
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Nice try, but it doesn’t fly.
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Buzzy,
Simplisms such as “simply look at nature” suggest a general liking for the notion of ID that lacks a grasp of its application and examples. Your defense of ID might have more credibility if you argued with reference to its actual claims and content. Similarly, a response that addresses the content of my comments likely has a better chance at credibility than a dismissive one-liner.
Until then,
SG
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#34: Hmmm. Slavery confers an advantage, if you are strong enough to enslave in the first place.
White people were more successful in forming civilizations and colonizing.
Even looking at modern life: minorities have higher crime rates. Minorities are underrepresented amongst the rich and powerful. If you start listing the civilized nations of the world, your list won’t have much on it from places like Africa. Diseases plague Africa to this day. Native Americans largely died out. Australia has only been successful due to migration of whites there.
Applying these observations to an evolutionary worldview, I could easily conclude that minorities, at least black and Native American/Australian peoples, are not the “fittest.”
Natural selection would seem to have “spoken.” If it had been unimpeded, most of these minorities would likely either be dead or enslaved.
It could be argued, and has historically been argued, that whites are more evolved, and that non-whites are more primitive sub-species.
The idea of natural selection relies upon struggle and dominance. It is only natural for humans to have clashed in the “struggle for life.” The fittest will survive.
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#40: How exactly is evolution a testable theory?
“There is essentially no difference between micro and macro evolution. “ — !!!!!! Yes, I see that the difference between blue jays and robins is equivalent to the difference between blue jays and whales. /sarcasm.
#42: “Even if a million Ph.D.s all wrote a book expressing their doubts about biological evolution that is not in any way equal to a single piece of hard data.” –Good to know that you’d accept reasonable standards of proof. Not. Very convenient, when you can dictate the meaning of the word “data” to only include stuff you agree with.
“To open the door of our science classrooms to ID creationism will require us to open the door to the flying spaghetti monster, and any other “challenge to Darwin” somebody thinks up.” — and I’ve been accused of using a slippery slope. Feast your eyes, all ye onlookers, on a true logical fallacy.
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“How exactly is evolution a testable theory?”
Here are some examples:
Investigators studying the origins of the human clotting cascade predict that if this complex system of proteins evolved via a gene duplication of a basic protease gene, there should be similarity among the DNA sequences of those proteins. Turns out to be true. “Big deal,” IDers might say; that’s just elegant conservation of a design that works. OK.
But those investigators also predict (hypothesis) that if functional higher veretebrate components of the clotting cascade like fibrinogen evolved (theory) from a duplicated ancestral gene, there should be evidence of a non-functional fibrinogen-like sequence in the genome in lower animals. The prediction (theory) was tested and found to be correct when the sequence was found in sea cucumber DNA (an animal that doesn’t make fibrinogen). Interestingly, sea cucumbers are of a subgroup of echinoderms believed more closesly related to us phylogenetically than others. No surprise then that the fibrinogen-like precurser sequence wasn’t found in more distant relatives.
I don’t contend this constitutes overwhelming proof, but simply to show what people mean by a testable theory and how it works in everyday science. It also highlights the way in which ID is incapable of generating the same.
Regards,
SG
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@51
“It could be argued, and has historically been argued, that whites are more evolved, and that non-whites are more primitive sub-species.”
Except when you give everyone the same opportunities they all flourish without regard to “race”, so it’s clear – except to the ignorant – that evolution plays no part, only sociology. So the people who make such claims are merely being racist. This is not biology, except that perhaps those who feel the need to make these claims are unevolved.
So, what you seem to be saying is that evolution is a convenient excuse for racism. Very well, but even if true, that’s not the fault of science, it’s the fault of ignorant, pathetic people who take a concept, fail to understand it, and apply it to real-world situations. It’s hardly surprising that they make fools of themselves, and hurt a large number of people, while doing so.
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I teach middle school science in a Christian school. My degrees are in history. As I have taken science courses at the local junior college to “bone up” on my science skills I am amazed at the mathematical precision with which our world operates. It can only point to an orderly Design in the universe. It is too perfect to have happened just by chance. I am blessed to have the freedom to teach both points of view within my classroom. If I moved to teaching science in a public school, I would lose that freedom of speech (as Ben Stein so aptly pointed out) and could not challenge my students to think critically and seriously consider the the truth of the Bible and their need for Jesus.
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There is a big difference between claiming that the fundamental organization of the universe with its finely tuned initial conditions are clues to God’s “eternal power and divine nature … so that men are without excuse” and the ID strategy of staking ground on this or that purportedly irreducibly complex system as the evidence against evolution (on the mistaken grounds that if evolution is true, God is not). It’s the difference between ascribing God’s dominion and authorship of the whole shebang and consigning Him to be marooned on isolated and swiftly eroding islands.
It’s ironic and sad that charlatans like Stein and echo-prone cheerleaders like World Magazine choose to champion scientifically and philosophically impoverished approaches, whining about their lack of respect, when there are indeed Christians unabashedly professing a theistic cosmology currently occupying positions of prominence in the scientific community.
So boo-hoo to you, folks who complain that utterly unscientific agendas aren’t given credence in the classrooms of America. Consider reading up instead on the real Daniels, people like Richard G. Colling, Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne, Kieth B. Miller, Howard J. Van Till, Kenneth Miller, Donald Nield, Graeme Finlay, Peter Dodson, Simon Conway Morris, etc. There are many others, distinguished by their common lack of an expectation of credentials for crap.
And as to the original post, Ms. Henry, I find your list of “coincidences” completely unsurprising, given the tendency of echos within a hermetic environment to sound oddly familiar.
Take care,
SG
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One of my all time favorite quotes was a letter to TIME magazine (Sep 5, 2005). I reprint it below:
“As an evangelical Christian, I reject intelligent design because it is not science but bad theology. Within science, it is no crime to admit that we don’t have all the answers. Within theology, however, it is a crime to use God as an excuse for our ignorance. If we don’t understand how something came about in nature, then we ought to use the brains that God gave us to think about and work on the problem. Otherwise we turn God into a magic word to use whenever we can’t figure things out.”
David P. Graf – Chicago
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