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Oral Roberts dies at 91
Numerous obituaries – kind, unkind, and charitably critical – will be written about Oral Roberts, who died today at the age of 91.
Oral Roberts, a pioneer in televangelism who founded a multimillion-dollar ministry and a university that bears his name, died Tuesday. He was 91.
Roberts was a pioneer who broadcast his spirit-filled revivals on television, a new frontier for religion when he started in the 1950s. He was also a forerunner of the controversial “prosperity gospel” that has come to dominate televangelism. The evangelist’s “Seed-Faith” theology held that those who give to God will get things in return.
Roberts overcame tuberculosis at age 17, when his brother carried him to a revival meeting where a healing evangelist was praying for the sick. Roberts said he was healed of the illness and of his youthful stuttering. He said that it was then that he heard God tell him he should build a university based on the Lord’s authority and the Holy Spirit.
I would love to read some first-hand accounts of your experience with the ministry of Oral Roberts. Did you attend ORU? Watch the televangelism programs? Donate money? Read one of his books?
If so, what are you thinking as you read of his passing?
back to top148 Comments to “Oral Roberts dies at 91”
I attended an ORU basketball game (they were actually very good, once) against CU (Colorado). That’s my ‘in’ to this thread.
But I’m more motivated to note that Oral Roberts gained infamy for, among other things, claiming that God would call him home if he did not raise something-million dollars from his listeners/viewers within X amount of time. How absurd.
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My mother used to watch his TV show. I was repelled by all the religious TV shows she watched (700 club, Kathryn Kuhlman). They were all about emotion, as far as I could tell. I don’t get very emotional, and I don’t like shows (or churches) that seem to link faith with emotional displays.
His passing doesn’t mean much to me. I had no idea whether he was still alive or not.
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I did not know he was the forerunner of the controversial “prosperity gospel”. I am concern about this teaching.
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I returned to the Church through Christian Television, though not Roberts, then ended up making a living in Christian Television for 19 year, though not with Roberts. Christian Television has great potential for good and bad. I wanted out but I have had trouble letting go.
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I hope God is an African American woman.
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Well guess what, Thomas, we don’t get to choose God. He is who He is.
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Thomas1 12.15.09 AT 6:41 PM
I hope God is an African American woman.
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sorry but again God’s Word tell us, He is the father, a male, why else did Jesus start the Lord Prayer with Our Father.
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5. I’ve heard he’s a Jewish Carpenter.
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#1: Apparently, God called him home.
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Well, maybe God will at least be a forensic CPA with a specialty in auditing. I’ve heard the books at Oral Roberts University were so cooked they were crispy.
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God is Spirit. John 4:24
He will manifest Himself as He wishes.
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In regards to the million dollars, Oral was raising money for the medical school and was falling a bit short in the endeavor. So, Oral went public and said that God had told him that He would call him home if a million dollars wasn’t raised. A single contributor donated the money and I think he was not even an Oral Roberts follower.
Johnny Carson’s joke at the time was that God spoke to Oral again and said “Bad news buddy, the check bounced”
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The man is dead. Let him rest, and search your own hearts.
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No comment. I wouldn’t want to speak ill of the dead, even if others already are.
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When a public figure dies, it is a time to look at their legacy. This is particularly true when the person makes their living via religious education and ministry.
It’s also a time for some reflection. I have a pretty good idea about what God’s opinion is of racism. It’s in what Christ called the greatest commandment.
I also think that the Christ who lived a very simple life and tossed the money changers out of the Temple would be peeved about a “prosperity gospel”.
By comparison, when Mother Teresa passed away, there wasn’t any criticism of her at all.
This is not a coincidence.
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Scott, your link doesn’t work.
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Yes, I agree with Peter L and won’t comment on Roberts.
But will comment on Pastor Roy’s comment. PR, you need to read your Bible in its whole context. God is both male and female. He, not being dead, I can speak for Him.
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“By comparison, when Mother Teresa passed away, there wasn’t any criticism of her at all.”
You must have not watched the funeral on the same Network I did.
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Adios, get ready for a lecture on “God’s Word” and how Pastor Roy has a lock on it.
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@18 – KBells, there was the usual Catholic-baiting. But generally, people who criticize someone who accomplished what she did are probably underachievers themselves.
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His name brings three distinct memories to mind:
1) A child’s book on heaven his wife wrote. I don’t remember the book that much, but I remember the illustrations – it was a literal rendering of Revelation and it is the way I’ve always pictured heaven in my head ever since.
2) My high school didn’t have a facility large enough to accommodate our entire class, so we rented the Mabee Center to host our graduation ceremony. I also attended I don’t know how many other events in that center.
3) My aunt spent a large percentage of her last two years in the Oral Roberts Cancer Center. I think of her when I hear his name.
I never considered Oral Roberts to be a strong spiritual leader – just one of those guys on TV everyone made fun of for all the obvious reasons. I’m feeling pretty neutral about it all today.
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The commentators I saw criticized Mother Theresa for the usual stuff; doing it just to proselytize, being pro-life, believing in the sanctity of marriage, that sort of thing.
What did Roberts do that was Racist?
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8 – if he is, then we’d all better convert to Judaism.
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@ 22 KBells – Interracial dating was banned at Oral Roberts University until very recently. Too recently.
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I won’t comment either, but I did find myself reminded by how much grace we all need in this life.
Whether it’s racism or greed or infidelity or any host of other sins God’s Word talks about — and remember, according to Jesus, we’ve violated God’s commands even if it isn’t manifested outwardly, if it’s within our hearts only — we all need to seek and pray for God’s mercy every day.
We all need His grace for our thoughts, words, deeds and motives.
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24 – More recently than at BJU?
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Thomas, he repented of that and changed it. Are we not obligated to forgive when a brother changes.
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“Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints” Ps. 116:15
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Thomas, he repented of that and changed it. Are we not obligated to forgive when a brother changes.
We are indeed. We can, in that context, question what took him so long.
The concept that certain people are superior to others based merely on their skin color was rejected by intellectuals before the Civil War. The idea that this belief persisted for over a century after that among our country’s troglodytes deserves a long, hard looking at.
Bianca – I’m not sure about that. I think BJU might have been later still.
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Yeah, too bad he wasn’t one of them.
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Oops crossposted again. That was for 28
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“The idea that this belief persisted for over a century after that among our country’s troglodytes deserves a long, hard looking at.”
Why? Let’s be grateful and move forward. Maybe it took so long because people know that if you admit you are wrong, others will throw it up to you for the rest of your life.
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Bianca=God. Who’d a thunk it.
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I’m with Peter L in #14. I have some un-nice things I could say about the man. My thoughts and prayers are with his family.
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Why? Let’s be grateful and move forward. Maybe it took so long because people know that if you admit you are wrong, others will throw it up to you for the rest of your life.
Um, no. When you admit you are wrong, you show character, integrity and intellect. This is particularly true of racist behavior. Moving forward is impossible without it.
Being grateful without addressing the underlying issues is self serving to the vulgar racist class of people who harmed others for so long, just because they could.
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“When you admit you are wrong, you show character, integrity and intellect.”
Then why did you choose to bring up his racist past rather than these qualities.
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Kbells – I suppose because it took tons of condemnation from his own flock to bring this about, and I therefore doubt his sincerity.
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There’s no biblical proscription against ’speaking ill of the dead.’ Water rolls downhill. Birds fly south. This man did a lot of harm in the name of the Gospel. And God is to be praised in all things.
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There’s no biblical proscription against ’speaking ill of the dead.’
There’s no Biblical proscription aganst a lot of things. We reject them anyway.
Do I think this clown’s record should be sanitized? No way. But he’s dead and his family may be reading this.
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37. So if he were sincere there is nothing he could do to gain your forgiveness because he waited too long?
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@ 40. No. But I truly would want to know what took him so long.
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41. Better late than never. I’ve seen racists change.
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#6
Well guess what, Thomas, we don’t get to choose God. He is who He is.
Unfortunately, you don’t know what God is [whether God be He, She, It, or They] any more than the rest of us.
It is very generous of you to appoint yourself as the person who does.
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“@ 40. No. But I truly would want to know what took him so long.”
He has an appointment with God, not you.
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My sympathy to his family.
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He preached once at Bel Air Presbyterian Church–which I attended back in the dark ages of college. I didn’t know who he was that day and felt uncomfortable with the man and his message. Nothing has made me change my opinion since.
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Memory eternal.
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Bianca, we can’t possibly say whether Roberts was saved or not. We can’t say that about anyone for that is the ultimate judgement that only God can make.
And when looking at someone else’s faults, flaws, warped doctrine or sins (for in all of us, those can be many), I still come back to Jesus’ story about the two men praying in the temple. One was proud that he was not like the other man, who simply prayed for God’s mercy, unable to even look up toward heaven.
I don’t know anything about Roberts’ heart or true faith; I do know I disagreed with him often and yes, I cringed at some of his (frankly) oddball proclamations. I didn’t follow his career and really know very little beyond the public dust-ups that he seemed to cause.
But did he know the Lord at the end of his life? At the point of death, the person is left to God. And I think we all should be careful about wanting to see someone punished eternally. Because we all deserve that, don’t you know.
There but for the grace of God go any of us.
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You know, it’s funny, but I think the longer I’m a Christian (and the older I get), the more I realize how incredibly frail we are, how it is only by God’s grace that we are carried any distance in living a godly life at all.
I continue to strive for obedience and holiness. God calls us to do our part in that and it is a serious undertaking. But more and more I am so acutely aware of how far short I fall from God’s standards.
I was not a “fan” of Roberts in the least. I have never had a warm feeling toward the whole “televangelist” culture (I’ve managed to basically avoid it mostly). Roberts may — or may not — have had a genuine faith, I don’t know. If there are some among us misleading believers and vulnerable people, we should be speaking out in warning. But once they’re gone, they are in God’s hands, not mine. And I just can’t know the whole story about any individual and his or her relationship with God.
So I sure wouldn’t proclaim with a human haughtiness that Roberts is surely NOT in heaven now (I hope that he is). Nor would I dare wish him God’s justice rather than mercy for what I may have perceived to be his “worse” sins in this life.
I think when we meet God face to face, it will be an experience where we will fall on our faces, quite similar to the one recorded in Isaiah 6 — “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips ; and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
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Adios, #17, actually, more accurately, God is not “both” male and female; He is neither male nor female. However, Jesus was and is male, and God presents Himself to us almost completely in male terms. So it is proper to use “He” of God and improper to use any other pronoun.
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As a kid I often watched the television program. I almost went to ORU, but they informed me too late that I was to receive financial aid. Other than the suspect theology (which I did not suspect at the time), it was a good school. I do not know what it is like now, but the graduates that I have met seem quite well educated.
One thing that I always appreciated about Oral Roberts was that even though he believed in the possibility of miraculous healing, he also advised people to make use of medical science as a gift of God. The original concept for his medical center was that it would combine faith and medical science–something I wholeheartedly endorse.
If he was a bit off-track or even in error, can we be humble to admit that we are all in some regard? At this moment, Roberts is learning where he was right and where he was wrong, but mostly he is basking in the presence of the Savior that he loved and served–however imperfectly we might think he did so.
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Condolences to his family.
Donna 48,49: Very well said.
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Do I think this clown’s record should be sanitized? No way. But he’s dead and his family may be reading this.
This “clown’s” record? You realize the family may be reading this, right?
I spoke to what the man actually did. It’s on the public record. You called him a clown.
Nice one.
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I think the term used in this post regarding the tenor of some of the obituaries we will read is a fair approach: One of being “charitably critical.”
We can be critical, but as Christians we should also be charitable, for “we all stumble in many ways,” as James puts it.
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His family was well aware of his clown status:
In addition to claiming that God spoke directly to him every day, this multimillionaire scam artist also performed faked healings for hundreds of thousands of deluded saps who promptly handed over their meager life savings. In 1987 he told a worldwide television audience that unless they sent him $8M immediately, God would “call him home.” The money arrived shortly. Plus an extra $1.1M. Later that same year his son (and eventual successor) claimed that he’d seen his father raise a child from the dead. More millions arrived shortly. In 1998 a whistleblower was forced off Oral Roberts University’s board of regents after he revealed that its founder led a lavish Beverly Hills lifestyle, including owning a $17M mansion there.</i.
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All that’s missing is a Mini Cooper spewing Beck, Coulter, Haggard, Dobson, O’Reilly, and Hannity.
Plus an oogah horn:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61_rPgitFmc&feature=player_embedded
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THOMAS 1: To paraphrase; “Out of the abundance of (your) heart, (your) mouth speaks.”
Do you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ?
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#13 Dittos to what Roger said.
He faces a judge bigger than any sniping done here on WMB
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Roger: Yes, I do.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.
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No. 60: I will have to take your word for it.
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Roger, I suppose you will. Can you watch the video of Roberts at 57 without cracking up? That’s a test.
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While I don’t think God is an African American woman, I don’t think He is a Jewish carpenter any longer either.
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I’m really disappointed in some of the comments on this thread. Apparently many on here have never read or heard OR’s testimony of salvation.
He started out in the Pentecostal camp and then transferred his ordination to the Mehodist church. And although he had his theological pecadillos, he certainly fell in the mainstream of evangelicalism.
He is a large target primarily because of the scope of his ministry. There are many preachers of the Gospel and followers of Christ who have similar beliefs and will go unnoticed.
I remember the words of Jesus that we will be judged by the same standard we are judging with.
I am grateful that I serve a God who will not judge my entire life on a few “ignorant” or “misinformed” comments that I have made, often with a sincere heart.
Based on what I have read by commenters on WMB, few of us would escape such a judgment.
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I am grateful that I serve a God who will not judge my entire life on a few “ignorant” or “misinformed” comments that I have made, often with a sincere heart.
When you run a school that has a policy of banning interracial dating, you’re not guilty of making a few “ignorant” or “misinformed” comments. The person who implements such a policy is evil.
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Thomas1; You purport to know what is in the man’s heart of which only God knows the full measure.
OR did not believe in the segregation of the races for a long time,having come to an understanding of his erroneous views. People’s minds and hearts have the capacity to change given the right circumstances, evidence and arguments.
My comment stands. OR will not be judged by the errors in his life, but rather by his grasp of faith in God’s redeeming love through Christ’s sacrifice for our sins on the Cross.
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Thank you Metanoia, I also found some comments disappointing, and a few disgusting. I wonder if some Believers need to feel better about themselves by judging and insulting others with whom they’ve disagreed.
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His family was well aware of his clown status
Really? So you’re saying they could read newspapers like other grown-ups? I’m confused by your admonition to me in 39–why did you caution me about his family possibly reading this thread?
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Metanoia – well, that makes me no worse than the class of people on WMB who think mainline Protestants aren’t “real” Christians.
OR may have backed off the racism after it became publicly unacceptable. Many of his supporters didn’t.
And there’s no record of him trying to counteract the effects of his prior beliefs and actions.
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Metanoia / Nana,
This man did lots of harm to many people’s lives. That’s a true fact whether he’s alive or dead. The fact that he’s now dead does not make that fact any less true, nor does his death somehow mean he can or should no longer be criticized. There’s nothing magical about death that somehow imparts respectability onto a person.
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MacRutabaga: While your statement may be true, often it is not what is said, but how it is said.
A period of decency and respect for the deceased and his family is in order. I feel this way whether it is the death of OR, Michael Jackson, or Ted Kennedy.
For everything there is a season, a time to mourn and a time to criticize. But even when we criticize, it can ve done with decency and respect.
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That’s not the dispute for me, Macrutabaga. Remember, there are others who gleefully criticize Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, every Pope, James Dobson and Mother Theresa – there’s no end to the list. Only God can knows our hearts and judges our salvation.
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Metanoia – Amen!
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We lived in Fort Worth, Texas, from ‘82 to ‘93. My mom taught in Christian schools, so wherever she got a job we kids had to go. For most of our time there we went to a school run by an Assemblies of God church (even though we were Baptists ourselves).
Being situated in that whole charismatic part of the spectrum, our school sent groups of kids up to ORU every year to participate in some nation-wide Christian schools competitions. So in the early ’90s I went up there a couple of times.
I remember pretty vividly those huge praying hands and the tall prayer tower with gold and the dormitories where we stayed. Once we passed through the TV studio. Mainly what I remember was the way they enforced all their rules and always threatened to punish you by having you wake up at 6 a.m. and run until you were sick. I remember hearing people kind of mockingly refer to the time OR said God would call him home and I remember thinking that was a bit “charismatic.” The whole experience was kind of otherworldly. But other than this I have no real connection to, or interest in, his ministry.
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Wow.
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Peter L. said,
You just did.
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My mom is authentically sad about OR’s passing. She was healed of polio at one of his crusades in the 1950s, which is also when she was saved. Between her reaction and that of Billy Graham (who called him a friend), I have been humbly reminded that God uses even very flawed vessels. My mom held to her belief that OR was an instrument of God, even though as she would later say with the prosperity teaching and the whole “give me money or I’ll die” fiasco, “He was so good back then, before he got messed up.”
My life verse is 2 Cor. 4:7 “We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power might be shown to be of God and not ourselves.” Am I glad God uses flawed vessels? Absolutely! As OR reminds me, the depth of his flaws reveals the depth of God’s ability even more, as we are surprised God could use yes, even him. Just as He has used some more theologically sound ministers who fell into moral compromise.
Should we strive for better? Of course. We want doctrinal soundness and moral purity, combined. But let’s not have the pride to think that if we have those two, we will necessarily be “better”. We are still an earthen vessel, and anything that gets done through us is of Him and not ourselves. He’ll make sure that someway, somehow, we know that.
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RJEDWAR,
Thank you, well said. And I would add, based on your mom’s comment “before he got messed up”, we all ought to be aware that we can become messed up quite easily. It is important to keep our eyes on God and not be distracted by the things of this world and the whisperings of the people. I do not know this guy or his teaching, but he claimed Christ and opened people’s eyes toward Him.
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Nice comment rjedwar.
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Thank you, RJEDWAR, for a good observation (77).
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Isn’t it nice to have so many gudges in the Body of Christ? But I think I will wait and let the Judge judge me!
Matt. 7:1-5
Is it alright if I have a concern for some of us on this thread?
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I can only imagine the comments that would be made about King David if we were to asses his life here today. Fortunately we have God’s testimony which is radically different than ours. I’m glad God thinks accurately about me, and I don’t have to live with the sting of less informed critics.
While there are many people I am critical of, I’m glad God knows the truth.
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Thomas1,
“All that’s missing is a Mini Cooper spewing Beck, Coulter, Haggard, Dobson, O’Reilly, and Hannity.
Plus an oogah horn:”
What do you have against Beck, Coulter, Haggard, Dobson, O’Reilly, and Hannity? I thought this was a discussion of a preacher. None of them are. Mini Cooper? Oogah horn?
Ya know, O’Reilly might classify you as a PINHEAD!
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Thomas1 12.15.09 AT 6:57 PM
Well, maybe God will at least be a forensic CPA with a specialty in auditing. I’ve heard the books at Oral Roberts University were so cooked they were crispy.
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his son was cooking the books not him get you facts right. I know you hate him for believing in God’s Word
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RRBAR – O’Reilly is too busy leaving dirty phone messages for staffers about falafels to classify me as anything.
Pastor Roy, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. And I didn’t know him, so can’t hate him. I do hate racism, though.
Do you?
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adios 12.15.09 AT 7:15 PM
Yes, I agree with Peter L and won’t comment on Roberts.
But will comment on Pastor Roy’s comment. PR, you need to read your Bible in its whole context. God is both male and female. He, not being dead, I can speak for Him.
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Sorry God’s Word is clear Jesus describe God as father. An God is not both male and female, no where is He described as being female. I know the far left want to do this but God’s Word never describe God as female.
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Thomas1 12.16.09 AT 10:39 AM
RRBAR – O’Reilly is too busy leaving dirty phone messages for staffers about falafels to classify me as anything.
Pastor Roy, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. And I didn’t know him, so can’t hate him. I do hate racism, though.
Do you?
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Did he repent of this sin?
Your problem is you hate any Christian that believe in God’s Word.
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Pastor Roy,
I think Cheryl D. said it better than I did, when she said God is neither male nor female. And that he reveals Himself as Father is without question. And that I refer to Him as ‘Him’ follows not only that, but the limited gender options of the English language.
In Genesis 1:27 it says, “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female He created them.” The feminine is just as much the image of God as the male. We should read the Word for what it says, not what we may be afraid the far left, whoever they are, would do with it
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rjedwar, 77, good comments.
If God didn’t use flawed vessels, he’d have no vessels at all to use.
It is God’s faithfulness that we must rely upon and cling to in the end, not ours — which even among the “best” and most obedient of believers is flawed and falls way, way short.
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Did he repent of this sin?
I don’t know. The evidence is scant.
Your problem is you hate any Christian that believe in God’s Word.
Too preposterous for words.
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Pastor Roy brings up repentance, and that’s what we can never see in another human being. It is between that person and God.
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Pastor Roy (#87), I don’t believe this for a minute and this statement is quite a stretch.
Also, the “prosperity gospel” was around long before Mr. Roberts was. The Apostle Paul warned of equating gain with godliness in 1 Ti. 6:5. There is nothing new under the sun.
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donna j 12.16.09 AT 11:03 AM
Pastor Roy brings up repentance, and that’s what we can never see in another human being. It is between that person and God.
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agree but with repentance given time there is an outward change also.
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Thomas1
Do I think this clown’s record should be sanitized?
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Wow so much for asking God for Forgiveness.
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adios 12.16.09 AT 10:57 AM
Pastor Roy,
I think Cheryl D. said it better than I did, when she said God is neither male nor female. And that he reveals Himself as Father is without question. And that I refer to Him as ‘Him’ follows not only that, but the limited gender options of the English language.
In Genesis 1:27 it says, “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female He created them.” The feminine is just as much the image of God as the male. We should read the Word for what it says, not what we may be afraid the far left, whoever they are, would do with it
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God is neither male nor female is different in saying God is both male and female. God is present as being a male, the father. He is not presented as a female or mother.
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hopesprings 12.16.09 AT 11:07 AM
Pastor Roy (#87), I don’t believe this for a minute and this statement is quite a stretch.
Also, the “prosperity gospel” was around long before Mr. Roberts was. The Apostle Paul warned of equating gain with godliness in 1 Ti. 6:5. There is nothing new under the sun.
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Hopesprings if you mean this statement
“Your problem is you hate any Christian that believe in God’s Word. ” Thomas does hate and dislike any Christian that believe in God’s Word to be true. He is very open about his feeling on the issue of Christian standing against sin.
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Quote from Nana #67:
“Thank you Metanoia, I also found some comments disappointing, and a few disgusting. I wonder if some Believers need to feel better about themselves by judging and insulting others with whom they’ve disagreed.”
Nana, this statement is true, but is also somewhat common to most/all of the threads here (and most of us have been guilty at one time or another). There are ways to disagree while being civil and gracious. Personal insults, capital letters, and one-up-manship don’t have to be part of the equation. Most of us are brethren which is a much higher bond than our political affiliations and varied opinions.
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Pastor Roy, you’re right with repentance does come change. I suppose I’m just saying that since none of us here seem to have been personal friends of Roberts (let alone have the ability to see the secret things between a person and God), that we simply are not in a position to pass judgement so quickly and easily (and harshly, I might add).
I hadn’t heard anything about him in years, I have no idea where his heart or faith stood. Does anyone here really know? That’s why so many of these comments from fellow Christians here bother me.
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Pastor Roy,
Except in Proverbs, Isaiah, Matthew . . .
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Thomas does hate and dislike any Christian that believe in God’s Word to be true. He is very open about his feeling on the issue of Christian standing against sin.
To hate anyone, I would have to care first.
I do not care about your version of “God’s Word”, any more than I care about a KKK screed or Glenn Beck’s Christmas Sweater drivel.
Suggesting otherwise is nonsensical. As for “standing against sin”, right-wing Christians have proven to be quite selective in this regard, rendering them mostly laughable.
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donna j 12.16.09 AT 11:21 AM
Pastor Roy, you’re right with repentance does come change. I suppose I’m just saying that since none of us here seem to have been personal friends of Roberts (let alone have the ability to see the secret things between a person and God), that we simply are not in a position to pass judgement so quickly and easily (and harshly, I might add).
I hadn’t heard anything about him in years, I have no idea where his heart or faith stood. Does anyone here really know? That’s why so many of these comments from fellow Christians here bother me.
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I did not know he was still alive.
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adios 12.16.09 AT 11:23 AM
Pastor Roy,
Except in Proverbs, Isaiah, Matthew . . .
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where?
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“And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deut. 18:21-22)
Whether or not Oral Roberts was a truly of the fold of God or not, I do not know. God certainly knows. However, the man has misreprested God and His Scriptures for a long, long time. He has encouraged many to follow in his steps of taking advantage of the sick, the poor, and the desperate. In the name of “refusing to be judgmental” too many believers have thrown away anything that even resembles discernment, thereby paving the way for many charlatans, even more perverted in their teaching, to take the place of Roberts. Pay attention to what the Scriptures actually say and quit looking for something else that will tickle your ears.
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donna j “That’s why so many of these comments from fellow Christians here bother me.”
The only teaching that I was bother with was the “prosperity gospel’
I did not know anything about his view on inter racaily dating issue. I believe God used him in many ways to expand the Kindgom of God.
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Justsaying — Discernment is crucial and we should always be sending out warnings about those who are misrepresenting God and His World. I believe that happened frequently in Roberts’ case on more than a few occasions.
My beef was with folks here who seem so sure that he was not a Christian and were rather gleefully hoping he’d now endure harsh punishment.
Knowing how flagrant my own sins are before God, I shudder at such a lack of seeing our own sin for what it is as well. I wish for grace, not justice.
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Well spoken DONNA J.
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donna j
“My beef was with folks here who seem so sure that he was not a Christian and were rather gleefully hoping he’d now endure harsh punishment. ”
these same people who are saying this, get upset when a Christian points out that their world view is in conflict with God. an taht they are supporting or promoting sin. they themselves have no problem casing judgment here.
Could we call this a double standard?
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I agree with those who say that God is neither male nor female. I also agree with those who say that since both male and female are made in the image of God, there is in some sense both kinds of characteristics in Him. My husband tells me, from his seminary studies, that when Adam is created he is referred to as man as in mankind, not as man as in male. Then when God ripped away his side (that is what my husband says is the best rendering of the verse that is commonly translated as saying God took a rib from his side, because the original does not mention ribs), is the first time reference is made to male and female.
So my husband’s interpretation – which makes sense to me – is that Adam was initially, like God, neither male nor female, and then he was sort of “split” into the two distinctive genders.
As far as the masculine pronouns and words such as Father, that is the best approximation our language can come up with. Except for God, all persons we know of are either male or female (I know there are also some people with genetic accidents that make them hard to classify, but languages developed how to speak of people and of God long before we understood genetics). Feminine metaphors are sometimes used of God, but something about the masculine imagery is considered more appropriate when it comes to nouns and pronouns.
The question is, what is it that makes it more appropriate? Personally I would not say that God is male, because male is a biological term, and is used of God anthropomorphically, just as we speak of God’s eyes, and arm, and finger. But given the limitations of our human language, the male terms best express something about God’s power, sovereignty, etc. that have always been connotations of the words referring to males more than females.
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Interesting, Pauline. I hadn’t heard that about Adam and man/kind before.
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The Hebrew word “adam” is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the human race as a whole.
See here:
http://www.baylyblog.com/2005/03/in_eves_fall_we.html
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Even though Pauline #108 is graciously Biblical and reasonable the DEFINITIVE and AUTHORITATIVE answer has arrived. This is really an issue that is worth a fight. The world is waiting and watching.
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To not be misunderstood. #108 = gracious, reasonable. #110= DEFINITIVE and AUTHORITATIVE.
worth a fight = sarcasm. World waiting and watching = should be sobering.
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Yes the world watches, they watch the great CHANGE within the churches who have chosen to follow the world. Women who want to be just like men. Ever since women began the liberated womens movement we’ve observed lots of changes, most of them have not benefited the family – children have suffered, men have stood by and allowed it to happen. The GLASS CEILING is just that, you can’t see it but you know it’s there – do you suppose GOD has given us the inner sense to KNOW that we are the weaker ones? – but defy HIM when we choose to lead, especially in the church? –
Then we can bring the female/male homosexual pastor’s into the mix – …….
Every inch a man gives to make a woman no different than a man is a step against what the Bible teaches.
As we’ve witnessed the changing of some denominations, allowing women to be ordained pastor’s – This is not taught in Scripture, but is an attempt to change what the Bible says.
The Bible says:
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:18
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Genesis 3:16
GOD was/is a man – that’s hard for some to bear, but it doesn’t change the fact that Jesus referred to the Father as HIM, not her.
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Victoria – amen
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Pastor Roy,
Thank you my friend –
The world has changed, some of the churches today resemble or are part of the 7 churches in Revelation, they haven’t followed GOD’s Word but instead made un-Biblical changes to benefit themselves – perhaps we should call it ‘freedom from GOD’s HOLY Word’ ? – how much more evil will prevail before the coming of our LORD?
A good study of the seven churches would benefit many a denomination, church, home Bible study and every one individually.
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Victoria 12.16.09 AT 4:56 PM
Pastor Roy,
Thank you my friend –
The world has changed, some of the churches today resemble or are part of the 7 churches in Revelation, they haven’t followed GOD’s Word but instead made un-Biblical changes to benefit themselves – perhaps we should call it ‘freedom from GOD’s HOLY Word’ ? – how much more evil will prevail before the coming of our LORD?
A good study of the seven churches would benefit many a denomination, church, home Bible study and every one individually.
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the sad part is many people today no longer understand these passage or matthew 24,
they are afraid of these studies. the reason once you open these studies and start to look at the world in a different way.
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My memories of Oral Roberts are something like – why stay inside and watch a televangelist when I could be out playing football or hunting?
Regarding the feminization of the church, our Sunday school teacher had ranted about it one morning. That afternoon, my reading for the day included Mat 23:37, where Jesus says:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!”
I couldn’t resist calling the Sunday school teacher at home and pointing out that apparently Jesus does have this feminine side. We had a good laugh together over it.
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Pauline, I don’t know where your husband went to seminary or who this professor was who taught it, but I seriously doubt the idea of Adam not being male until he was “split.” For one thing, one verse makes very clear that God didn’t think it was good for man to be alone, and He’d make a helper that suited him. That verse alone strongly indicates a male needing a female. The whole passage reads like that, actually, but I think that verse makes the clearest case for male being made first, and then female being made to correspond to and help him. (BTW, I had a fairly strong feminist involved in some of my own Bible college training, and I think if there was any validity to this sort of thing, the feminists would be using it everywhere. I suspect this is more just one person’s opinion or even speculation.)
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Cheryl D.,
I don’t know Hebrew myself, but I can tell from an interlinear Bible that when it says it is not good for man to be alone, the word for man is “adam” which is used to refer to humans generally, not the word “ish” which means male. It does not refer to male and female (”ish” and “isha”) until five verses later.
I’m not particularly familiar with feminism (either the older type that simply wanted to expand women’s educational and vocational opportunities, or the newer radical type), but a google search easily turned up examples of feminists using that exact argument.
That doesn’t either add to or detract from the argument’s validity, in my opinion. But it does show that it is far from one professor’s opinion.
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God is not male, but he is masculine, and He uses language, which He created, and an incarnation, which He chose, to demonstrate his nature. Masculinity and femininity are a deep mystery, one that we, in our puritanical, androgynous, sexually nervous age, are frantic to obliterate. CS Lewis’s space trilogy contains interesting observations about the cosmic meaning of masculinity and femininity, especially in Perelandra and That Hideous Strength. Male and female in the Bible are shown as complementary, not “equal,” ie, interchangeable.
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Pauline, I didn’t think about this till later yesterday (and this site hasn’t been letting me log in consistently), but there is actually a decisive scriptural argument against that interpretation: Paul says that man was made first, then woman. He doesn’t say humanity was made first then split in half; he’s very clearly talking about men and women.
No, the feminists using something wouldn’t be proof that something isn’t true (though it would make the argument suspect, because their exegesis on male/female stuff is highly questionable, and Genesis is one they work on hard); my point was that I’d heard a lot of feminist arguments during a few years of my life (I was the only non-feminist at several Thanksgiving gatherings, stuff like that) and I’d never heard this argument, and it was the kind of argument they would have tried to use. But apparently some do so, as you found.
But regardless, Paul shows that this argument doesn’t work. (It didn’t really make sense anyway–would Adam have been created without sex organs initially? We simply aren’t “neuter”; we are male and female. Even the animals he was naming were male and female.) I do think this is a feminist argument of some sort, trying to get around the fact that man was created first and that the Bible treats that as a significant fact.
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male Strongs Greek
zakar – zaw-kawr’
from ‘zakar’ properly, remembered, i.e. a male (of man or animals, as being the most noteworthy sex):–X him, male, man (child, -kind).
female Strongs Greek
nqebah – nek-ay-baw’
from ‘naqab’ (5344); female (from the sexual form):–female.
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Wow. What vitriol towards Oral. Even as an ORU grad (class of ‘78) I cannot and won’t try to defend the worst of Oral’s theology, nor the truly goofy things he said. I didn’t fully understand it when I was a student, and now that I do, I could not agree with some of the things he said and did.
Yet, I can also see the good that has come from his most lasting and important legacy, ORU, and the many godly people who went through ORU, many of whom do not share his views on prosperity, and might have a more nuanced view of healing. I have many friends and acquaintances who are faithfully and sacrificially serving the Lord today in all parts of the world because of this man’s vision. I can honestly say ORU was a very positive formative influence in my life and work, and unfortunately, Oral will always be remembered mostly for the controversial things, especially by people uninformed on “the rest of the story.”
However, I must correct a falsehood that has appeared in this thread. Oral was not in any form or fashion a racist, and I’m not sure where that accusation is coming from. ORU is one of the most integrated campuses you’ll find, and it was even when I was in school. In fact, in the 1950s, when Oral had integrated seating at his crusades (when some evangelists still had segregated seating), the KKK protested, and someone actually took a potshot at the tent where the crusade was held. There has never been a ban on interracial dating at ORU. I saw black/white couples holding hands on campus in 1974, and no one tried to stop them.
See this story for a more nuanced view on Oral:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/decemberweb-only/151-34.0.html
and the obit in the LA Times for evidence of his efforts at promoting racial harmony:
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-oral-roberts16-2009dec16,0,1919150,full.story
Here’s the key paragraph from that story:
The minister was controversial for other reasons as well. In the days of segregation, Roberts, like Graham, insisted that black and white worshipers sit together, a progressive policy he said brought him death threats. “We didn’t think of being ahead of our time,” Roberts recalled.
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BSULLYOK #124,
Thanks, we needed that! Unfortunately many will not read this later post. It will be interesting to see if those calling OR a racist will apologize.
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bsullyok the idea came from our Bible Believing Chirstian hater Thomas. He hates any thing that is Christian, Please pray for him
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Bsullyok- 124
Thank you for the INFO regarding “racism” and Oral Roberts – It’s too bad this rumor was brought forth.
GOD bless you.
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Cheryl, Pauline,
Genesis 2:18 says, “. . . I will make him an help meet for him.”
Both “him”s are masculine singular in Hebrew.
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Pastor Roy, why do you keep saying that Thomas1 hates all Christians and the Bible? None of his comments indicate that – he disagrees with you for sure, but repeatedly saying he is full of hate is inappropriate and inaccurate, and does nothing to help your arguments.
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Lia 12.17.09 AT 3:11 PM
Pastor Roy, why do you keep saying that Thomas1 hates all Christians and the Bible? None of his comments indicate that – he disagrees with you for sure, but repeatedly saying he is full of hate is inappropriate and inaccurate, and does nothing to help your arguments.
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He attack’s God’s Word that calls gay life stly sin.
He attack’s Christian who believe the gay life stlye is a sin.
He attack’s Christian Christian Church and groups that believe the gay life stlye is a sin.
He attack’s people and Church from His on Church that have left their groups over his group embracing of sin.
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Disagreeing with something doesn’t mean you hate it. I disagree with my husband on certain views and ideas, and by debating with him, I guess you’d say I was ‘attacking’ those things. That doesn’t mean I hate him, or those dissenting opinions.
You ‘attack’ the literature and groups of people who call the gay life style NOT a sin – does that mean you hate them?
I think it’s wrong of you to keep saying Thomas1 hates all these things and people and I think you should just debate him instead.
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Lia 12.17.09 AT 4:12 PM
Disagreeing with something doesn’t mean you hate it. I disagree with my husband on certain views and ideas, and by debating with him, I guess you’d say I was ‘attacking’ those things. That doesn’t mean I hate him, or those dissenting opinions.
You ‘attack’ the literature and groups of people who call the gay life style NOT a sin – does that mean you hate them?
I think it’s wrong of you to keep saying Thomas1 hates all these things and people and I think you should just debate him instead.
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Lia, I have debated him, but when someone start to resort to hateful posting not just to me but other also. An takes joy is attack Christian and trying to paint them as being evil. An When it comes to God’s Word. It become clear this person does hate all that is of God.
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Lia I hope this help you understand why I said what I said.
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Lia – He is right now on another site trying to paint any Christian who stands in his way (he calls us Christian Right) wanting to kill all gay people.
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#128 “Genesis 2:18 says, “. . . I will make him an help meet for him.”
Both “him”s are masculine singular in Hebrew.”
John Denney,
What is the Hebrew word that is translated “him” in this verse? When I look at the interlinear (as I explained, I do not know Hebrew), I see only three words for the whole phrase that is translated “I will make him an help meet for him” in English. One word has the basic meaning of make, the next has the basic meaning of help, and the third is the one that is translated “meet” or “suitable” or “corresponding” or a similar word, depending on your translation. The other words are necessary to make the sentence work in English.
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To clarify my last sentence in #135, what I meant is that the other words in the English translation (”I will”, “him an”, “for him”) are needed to make the sentence work in English.
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Pauline,
Yes, the phrase is just three words, but Hebrew uses prefixes and suffixes to modify the root words. In that verse the Hebrew word for “make” has a hyphen and the Hebrew letters lamed and va appended. The lamed is a prefix meaning “for” and the va is a suffix meaning “him”.
The last word in the verse is spelled kaph, nun, gimel, daleth, va. The kaph is a prefix meaning “as” or “like”. The va is again a suffix that means “him”.
An interesting point germane to this topic is the use of the Hebrew word “ezer” (help). Obviously Eve is feminine, but all other uses of that noun in the Old Testament refer to God Himself, as in Psa 33:20 “Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he [is] our help and our shield.”
The idea even carries into the New Testament: the Holy Spirit is called “The Helper”.
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John Denney,
Thanks for the explanation.
I’m really not trying to make a big deal of this – I don’t have a problem with God revealing Himself as masculine. But the linguistic aspects fascinate me. Does Hebrew have any neuter forms? In other words, would it even have been possible to express the idea of God making a helper for a human being without specifying masculine or feminine?
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Lia: Thomas IS a Christian, actually. Pastor Roy is unable to accept that not all Christians agree with him. Pastor Roy seems to believe that only his interpretation of the Bible is correct, and anyone who has a different view is denying “the Word of God.” When all Thomas is really doing is denying Pastor Roy’s self-appointed position as possessor of the only right idea.
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Actually, Thomas1 demonstrates no evidence whatsoever that he is a Christian, other than wanting to be called one for some unknown reason.
Both by his beliefs and by his attitudes he consistently shows that he is a scoffer and an enemy of the Word of God. He denies the fundamentals of our Faith, always sides with atheists, mockers and others who don’t claim to be Christians in debates on this blog, and in his rhetoric shows that he has a deep-seated malice toward traditional Christian beliefs.
This is not a matter of different “interpretations” of the Bible. This is a question of the rotten, fly-infested fruit brought forth by Thomas1 every time he posts a comment on this site.
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David L. 12.18.09 AT 9:02 AM
Actually, Thomas1 demonstrates no evidence whatsoever that he is a Christian, other than wanting to be called one for some unknown reason.
Both by his beliefs and by his attitudes he consistently shows that he is a scoffer and an enemy of the Word of God. He denies the fundamentals of our Faith, always sides with atheists, mockers and others who don’t claim to be Christians in debates on this blog, and in his rhetoric shows that he has a deep-seated malice toward traditional Christian beliefs.
This is not a matter of different “interpretations” of the Bible. This is a question of the rotten, fly-infested fruit brought forth by Thomas1 every time he posts a comment on this site.
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Agree
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ConanTheLibrarian 12.17.09 AT 11:06 PM
Lia: Thomas IS a Christian, actually. Pastor Roy is unable to accept that not all Christians agree with him. Pastor Roy seems to believe that only his interpretation of the Bible is correct, and anyone who has a different view is denying “the Word of God.” When all Thomas is really doing is denying Pastor Roy’s self-appointed position as possessor of the only right idea.
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like David posted Thomas has a problem with God’s Word. It is not my interpretation of the Bible versus his interpretation of the Bible. It is what God’s Word says.
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Pauline,
Hebrew has no neuter gender.
My experience has been that the King James version is a very literal translation. However, I’m baffled at this:
Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
It? “It” is the Passover lamb! The Hebrew is “him”, not “it”, since there is no neuter. And it’s not like it could be a male OR female lamb – just a few verses prior it explicitly says it MUST be a male!
Some translations even say “them”, since there are obviously thousands of lambs, one for each household. But the Hebrew is “him” – masculine singular, because it is a foreshadowing of The Lamb Who’s blood will save us from the wrath of God just as the blood on the doorposts saved the firstborn within the house. (BTW, it didn’t matter whether or not the house was occupied by Israelites or not. All that was checked for was the presence of the blood.)
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–David L is correct in his assessment. One has only to look back upon the many posts that Thomas1 has made.
Thank you David for making it plain. GOD bless you.
–Pastor Roy, let it go – there are those who have not read many of the posts, hence they don’t understand what has transpired. God bless you.
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The only people who have any right to determine if Thomas1 is a Christian are himself and God. I will say this, though. If he wasn’t one, do you honestly think that constantly refraining that he hates you as a response to everything he says could possibly change that? And David L’s comment about Thomas1’s words being rotten fly-infested fruit is uncharitable, childish, boorish and uncivil. Christians don’t have a jihad, and those with different beliefs than you are not your ‘enemy’. I shudder to think of David L actually trying to evangelize with such a offensive manner.
Pastor Roy, I realize you’re not trying to offend Thomas1 – but wouldn’t it be better to either address what he says, or just ignore his comments? There’s no point in continuously saying he hates people as a response.
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Lia -Pastor Roy, I realize you’re not trying to offend Thomas1 – but wouldn’t it be better to either address what he says, or just ignore his comments? There’s no point in continuously saying he hates people as a response.
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understand
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Thanks Pastor Roy! Hooray for Christmas spirit! : )
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Lia it is hard sometime not to be stait forward with some people
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