A personal thanks to Mr. Hume
There is something I have to do four weeks from now that I have been afraid of. Brit Hume’s outspokenness for the gospel on Sunday has given me the courage to go ahead. It works on me like the Apostle Paul said it would. When Christians see a brother get persecuted for the gospel, this increases rather than decreases their boldness:
“I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ. Most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear” (Philippians 1:12-14).
The reason for this counterintuitive phenomenon is spiritual and not exhaustively plumbed by the human mind. Nevertheless, there are some intelligible things we can say. One is that we notice that the sky didn’t fall. I don’t mean that there weren’t ugly repercussions, or that the online chat hosted by The Washington Post’s Tom Shales did not repeatedly call for Hume’s resignation (and sound like they would prefer his beheading). I don’t mean that Mr. Hume’s email is not dripping with venom.
I just mean we find out that these things don’t kill us after all. There is life after persecution. More than that: There is life in persecution. Mr. Hume will have good and bad moments, but we all have good and bad moments, whether we speak out for Christ or not. Like C.S. Lewis wrote in A Grief Observed:
“One never meets just Cancer, or War, or Unhappiness (or Happiness). One only meets each hour or moment that comes. All manner of ups and downs. Many bad spots in our best times, many good times in our worst. One never gets the total impact of what we call ‘the thing itself.’”
God’s mercies are new every morning in any case.
This is why the rest of us are made braver. We see that persecution is survivable. We even find ourselves envying (in a righteous way—Romans 11:11) a man who has done the thing, and is free. He has faced his fears (if he had any on the drive to the studio) and so they no longer have power over him. Their bark is worse than their bite, which only the doers of God’s Word can know. Those who hold on to worldly goods and reputation are controlled by them; those who let them go end up strangely elated:
“You joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one” (Hebrews 10:34).
Good for you, Mr. Hume. You have confessed Christ before men, and now Christ will confess you before his Father (Matthew 10:32). Also, you have signaled the return of the Lord and the recreation of all things, “for the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God” (Romans 8:19). Now one more son of God has been revealed.
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back to top155 Comments to “A personal thanks to Mr. Hume”
George Stephanopoulos made a crack on GMA about this the other day — with a smile, of course — and I hope it ultimately backfires on all of them.
What it does is reinforces the feeling that Fox News is a decent organization.
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Did I miss something?
Mr Hume’s youTube link which I listened to did not strike me as any type of “personal testimony” at all. I would liken it more to a comparative religions lecture. I think his Cliff’s Notes or Reader’s Digest take on Buddhism and Christianity certainly was accurate. But it hardly constituted a testimony or witness as I understand those two terms.
The MSM is extremely gun shy about anything having to do with Christianity. It’s still a shock to hear newscaster’s discuss anything at all connected to the fundamentals of Christian belief. I dont think we’re quite the secular country they envision or hope us to be, but it goes like this: “The Pope delivered an Easter address in St Peter’s. Easter is the day Christians believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead after his crucifixion by the Romans who were occupying Palestine at that time.”
ABC back in the days of Peter Jennings had a “religion reporter” named Peggy Wehmeyer. I was happy for her to hit the big time since she’d begun her news career in WFFA Channel 8 the DFW ABC affiliate.
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What it does is reinforces the feeling that Fox News is a decent organization.
HAHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA! NJL – you’ve always made me laugh, but that was your best yet.
Also, to those of you who state that Hume is being “silenced” or that his freedom of speech is being violated, I say: piffle.
No one has said he can’t speak.
But only the fascisiti would suggest that a person publicly giving an opinion is immune from criticism of that opinion.
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THOMAS 1: I would suggest you go to the link to the Washington Post link provided. You would feel right at home posting your drivil there along with the rest of the Christian message haters.
And when you do, read all the posts. You may have your eyes open and recognize that no one on WMB has ever posted such vile statements. (Well, I will conceed a few atheist/agnostic/false christians have.)
Please, “repent lest you also likewise perish”
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 9:44 AM
What it does is reinforces the feeling that Fox News is a decent organization.
HAHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA! NJL – you’ve always made me laugh, but that was your best yet.
Also, to those of you who state that Hume is being “silenced” or that his freedom of speech is being violated, I say: piffle.
No one has said he can’t speak.
But only the fascisiti would suggest that a person publicly giving an opinion is immune from criticism of that opinion.
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thomas why so much anger towards Christian
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Thomas1
My complaint is not with criticism of Mr Hume’s opinion. The objectionable part is the awful, even uncivil, criticism of his person. It is true that the general tone is not that he “can’t speak” (be prohibited from speaking). But there certainly is a childish and even vile condemnation of his Christian comments. And there is the clear wish that he just shut up.
I believe that this sort of response is directed primarily at Christians. And that is where Andree’s comments are so very encouraging, and yes Brit Hume’s polite, caring comments were entirely appropriate and a refreshing alternative to the tabloid-like attention of the rest of the media.
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Sawgunner says,
Your comment confuses me. Who said it was a personal testimony? It was a bold public proclamation of a man’s need for Christ.
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Roger – worry about your own soul. It’s troubling enough for most of us without petty critiques of the state of others.
The tenor of the criticism is a legitimate subject for discussion. What’s so amusing is that “Christians” suggest that ANY of it is tantamount to silencing poor Mr. Hume and his microphone, which beams his views into the homes of scads of Americans.
Some Americans will agree with those views, and some will not.
It was a bold public proclamation of a man’s need for Christ.
The problem with that is that not everyone needs or wants to be told by a random stranger what they need in the way of religion.
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Has Tiger or those close to him complained?
This article reminds me of the quote, “A coward dies a thousand deaths… a soldier dies but once”.
Many things God has taught me through hardship and one of the best lessons is that you can live through some amazing things. Not only live, but live abundantly.
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 11:14 AM
Roger – worry about your own soul. It’s troubling enough for most of us without petty critiques of the state of others.
The tenor of the criticism is a legitimate subject for discussion. What’s so amusing is that “Christians” suggest that ANY of it is tantamount to silencing poor Mr. Hume and his microphone, which beams his views into the homes of scads of Americans.
Some Americans will agree with those views, and some will not.
It was a bold public proclamation of a man’s need for Christ.
The problem with that is that not everyone needs or wants to be told by a random stranger what they need in the way of religion.
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Thomas what kind of christian are you? You seem not to be one who support Jesus teaching about reaching people for God.
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I love that Lewis quote Andree. I think I’ll add it to my facebook status. Got a lot of friends who could stand to hear it, myself included.
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Thomas what kind of christian are you? You seem not to be one who support Jesus teaching about reaching people for God.
Wrong, again. We disagree about how to do that.
I could ask “What kind of a Christian are you, who thinks that rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion is a proper witness for Christ?”
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Brit Hume’s moment was indeed a glorious thing to behold. May God bless him for his bold testimony and example.
And dear sister, we will pray that the same bold spirit will rest upon you in four weeks.
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 11:53 AM
Thomas what kind of christian are you? You seem not to be one who support Jesus teaching about reaching people for God.
Wrong, again. We disagree about how to do that.
I could ask “What kind of a Christian are you, who thinks that rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion is a proper witness for Christ?”
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See this is your problem “who thinks that rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion is a proper witness for Christ?” You believe the mention of Christ is rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion”
The Christian Faith is not a religion. It is a life. You must dislike the book of Acts. The reason is shows the early Christian were very “rude and inappropriate ” The reason they were know to introduction of the topic of Christ, when people lest expected.
Again you did not answer the question what kind of christian are you?
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CHIM-PRINTS #13
Thanks for your very important reminder of what Andree’s post was really about. I will be praying too!!!
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THOMAS 1: “Repent, lest you also likewise perish.”
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roger – Thomas again is showing his lack of understand and teaching of the Christian Faith. I believe this is because of the church he goes to has reject the Word of God, so he is not getting the solided Christian teaching that he needs to grow in Christ.
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You believe the mention of Christ is rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion”
Nope. Never said that. I think it’s fine among family, friends or even casual acquaintances, not so much at work unless there’s a personal connection there.
I don’t think it’s appropriate with strangers. But you keep plugging away at it and let us know how it goes.
And to answer your question – I’m the kind of Christian who thinks that Christians who discuss Christianity with dignity and respect for the people they are addressing, are better witnesses for Christ. People who accost random strangers in public? Not so much.
And Roger, really, give it a rest already. I’m not perishing any time soon.
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Christianity with dignity and respect for the people they are addressing, are better witnesses for Christ. People who accost random strangers in public? Not so much.
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then you must have had a hard time when Jesus confronted random strangers in public.
An you must dislike the books of acts that show the early Christian confronted random strangers in public.
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Pastor Roy, I think that your are rejecting basic principles of good manners simply because you think proselytizing to random strangers isn’t rude. It’s not required of any Christian.
Here’s an idea. Why don’t you try living a good example of Christly behavior, not approaching strangers, but instead – targeting your evangelizing to people to those who are likely to have interest?
Let us know your success rate compared to the current approach. I can tell you – it’s not working on me.
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 12:26 PM
You believe the mention of Christ is rude and inappropriate introduction of the topic of religion”
Nope. Never said that. I think it’s fine among family, friends or even casual acquaintances, not so much at work unless there’s a personal connection there.
I don’t think it’s appropriate with strangers. But you keep plugging away at it and let us know how it goes.
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Your posting come across as someone who dislike Christian.
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 12:31 PM
Pastor Roy, I think that your are rejecting basic principles of good manners simply because you think proselytizing to random strangers isn’t rude. It’s not required of any Christian.
Here’s an idea. Why don’t you try living a good example of Christly behavior, not approaching strangers, but instead – targeting your evangelizing to people to those who are likely to have interest?
Let us know your success rate compared to the current approach. I can tell you – it’s not working on me.
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Awe so we are not to obey God when He tells us to speak to random strangers. So Christ, who set the example, was rejecting basic principles of good manners, simply because He was tring to proselytizing to random strangers. The early Church was rejecting basic principles of good manners, simply because They were tring to proselytizing to random strangers.
What about the OT Prophets who stood on the street calling the people to repent. That was very rude of them, for calling random strangers to repent of their sins. An we saw how that worked out for the OT Prophets, they were killed by those random strangers for preaching God’s message. We also saw what happent to those random strangers that failed to listen to the OT Prophets. They paid the price of not repenting of their sins.
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Thomas1
“Let us know your success rate compared to the current approach. I can tell you – it’s not working on me.”‘
That you know of. God’s Word is being planted in you even if as you reject those of us, who are tring to help you. Thomas I must obey God not you, as other must obey God not you or me.
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Pastor Roy, if your version of Christianity calls for persistent annoyance of the populace after being repeatedly told to stop, you can cheerfully count me out of it.
Evangelizing doesn’t rule out tailoring the message, being polite, and thoughtful in one’s approach.
For example: a person who organizes a seminar and presents a well-thought, concise presentation of Christianity to welcome attendees will get a lot more interest than a freak yelling into a megaphone or someone creepily slinking up to a stranger.
Try both and compare!
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 1:12 PM
Pastor Roy, if your version of Christianity calls for persistent annoyance of the populace after being repeatedly told to stop, you can cheerfully count me out of it.
Evangelizing doesn’t rule out tailoring the message, being polite, and thoughtful in one’s approach.
For example: a person who organizes a seminar and presents a well-thought, concise presentation of Christianity to welcome attendees will get a lot more interest than a freak yelling into a megaphone or someone creepily slinking up to a stranger.
Try both and compare!
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Wow so the OT Prophets were freak, Paul was a freak, Peter was a freak, finial Jesus was a freak for telling people to repent, when the person did not want to hear it. Thank you for enclude me with this group.
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You’re welcome.
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THOMS 1: “Repent”
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roger patno 01.07.10 AT 1:38 PM
THOMS 1: “Repent”
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you are going to have to explain what it means to repent. Remeber he comes from a Church that does not teach about sin and repenting from sin.
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Pastor Roy: I believe that Thomas is living a deceptive life. It is serious enough in my mind that I must call him/her to seriously repent. That is all I am required to do. The rest is between him/her and the God whose children he/she continues to malign.
God bless your ministry, pastor.
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roger patno 01.07.10 AT 1:52 PM
Pastor Roy: I believe that Thomas is living a deceptive life. It is serious enough in my mind that I must call him/her to seriously repent. That is all I am required to do. The rest is between him/her and the God whose children he/she continues to malign.
God bless your ministry, pastor.
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I agree with what you are saying, But people like Thomas, that has been taught a false teaching, which do not teach about repenting of sins. He has no idea what it means to repent. We use the term one way and he see it another way, the reason he does not understand it, because he was never taught what it means to repent.
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Roger: you too, madame. As far as I know, it’s not a sin to tiresomely hector people to repent when you have a lot of your own to do, but you do it a lot and it’s frankly a bit of a bore.
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Thomas: Your right, I do have to repent often. And I do, because I am not blind to my sins.
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Thomas: Repent.
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Thomas is your constant attendance on these threads, especially this type of thread could mean you are under conviction from the LORD to turn to Jesus Christ as Savior.
It appears to me that anyone who spends this much time, coming after the Believers is questioning his own heart and soul for answers. Christ died for any and all who believe and repent, …. the Cross of Christ has a place for you too.
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Here is one of Thomas freaks
“Go and proclaim these words toware the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Isreal, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger forever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD they God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORd.” Jeremiah 3:12-13
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Thomas the north were random strangers to Jeremiah, was he wrong for speak like this to them?
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Frankly, I think it is arrogant and rude of you all to talk to Thomas as if he were not a Christian. He is, and while you more conservative types may think his church teaches some false things, to sneer at it (as in post #28) and to speak as if he was no more a Christian than an avowed atheist (as in #4) is patronizing, insulting and rude.
If I were in his position, I would be too busy trying to not respond in anger to hear anything you had to say, but you are doing a marvelous job of proving him right when he argues that some approaches to evangelism are more effective than others.
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Thomas1 do you understand why and what roger, Victoria and my self are tring to help you with?
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Victoria, if anyone needs repentance around here, it’s you.
Start at the mall, why don’t you?
Pastor Roy. We have not such different concepts of repentance, but very different ones of what it means to be a good Christian. You go your way, I’ll go mine, and we’ll see who gets where in good time. I’ll spare you what I think you’ll find when you get there, being that it’s impolite to express such sentiments. I’ll thank you to do the same.
Everyone needs repentance. Not everyone needs to lecture others about how much they need to do so. Most of us have enough to worry about ourselves.
My basic point remains unrefuted and shall speak for itself.
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Thomas1 01.07.10 AT 3:04 PM
Victoria, if anyone needs repentance around here, it’s you.
Start at the mall, why don’t you?
Pastor Roy. We have not such different concepts of repentance, but very different ones of what it means to be a good Christian. You go your way, I’ll go mine, and we’ll see who gets where in good time. I’ll spare you what I think you’ll find when you get there, being that it’s impolite to express such sentiments. I’ll thank you to do the same.
Everyone needs repentance. Not everyone needs to lecture others about how much they need to do so. Most of us have enough to worry about ourselves.
My basic point remains unrefuted and shall speak for itself.
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“Go and proclaim these words toware the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Isreal, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger forever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD they God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORd.” Jeremiah 3:12-13
Thomas the north were random strangers to Jeremiah, was he wrong for speak like this to them?
Thomas1 do you understand why and what roger, Victoria and my self are tring to help you with?
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Thomas
Your mall story is silly – it’s been explained over and over again. Obviously you’re fixated on malls, and people who CHOOSE who will help them in the stores they shop in.
As usual when you can’t make your point you bring up your MALL and wail away.
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Someone who continues to mock the Word of GOD and the teachings of Christ and HIS Apostles as though the Bible is a half truth — in most cases will receive a response.
Doing a HE-HAW when you don’t agree doesn’t make for a serious consideration -
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Pastor Roy #28:
“you are going to have to explain what it means to repent. Remeber he comes from a Church that does not teach about sin and repenting from sin.”
Admittedly, I know very little about the church in question, but if memory serves me, you are speaking about the Episcopalian Church. Correct?
In the thread on Brit Hume and Fox News, the article stated that Mr. Hume was Episcopalian. Did he not preach a clear Gospel?
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This post has come a long way from the courteous, caring comments of Brit Hume; and the bold hope of Ms Seu. I am certainly not ashamed of the Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ. But, I am embarrassed by some of the callous and uncaring ways some Christians attempt to share the Good News of Jesus payment for our sin.
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Victoria, the sad part about Thomas, is he does not see, nor does he understand, he is being taught a lie and he is trained to responded the way he is responding.
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hopesprings 01.07.10 AT 3:14 PM
Pastor Roy #28:
“you are going to have to explain what it means to repent. Remeber he comes from a Church that does not teach about sin and repenting from sin.”
Admittedly, I know very little about the church in question, but if memory serves me, you are speaking about the Episcopalian Church. Correct?
In the thread on Brit Hume and Fox News, the article stated that Mr. Hume was Episcopalian. Did he not preach a clear Gospel?
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There are two Episcopalian Groups today. The frist groups has abound the Word of God, an no longer view it as being true. The second group has broken away from the first group over the issue of sin and the Word of God.
I do not know which group Mr. Hume belongs to, I do know Thomas belongs to the frist group which has abound the Word of God, an no longer view it as being true.
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Conan, I missed you at #37, but thank you. I’m off for the afternoon.
This thread stands as a testament to the fallibility of Christians.
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I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t understand “abound”.
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hopesprings 01.07.10 AT 3:24 PM
I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t understand “abound”.
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sorry abounded, missed two letters and you are not being rude. I have never seen you being rude on these boards
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Thomas1 you did not answer my question…. Since you arugement is that it was rude for Hume to mention the Christian Faith and Jesus in reference to Tiger Woods.
Here the passage
“Go and proclaim these words toware the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Isreal, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger forever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD they God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORd.” Jeremiah 3:12-13
Thomas, the north were random strangers to Jeremiah, was he wrong for speak like this to them?
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I think ‘abandoned’ is the word you’re looking for. I thought Thomas was Unitarian or UU or something like that….but maybe I’m confusing my conversations; it might be ConantheLibrarian.
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DJ 01.07.10 AT 3:35 PM
I think ‘abandoned’ is the word you’re looking for. I thought Thomas was Unitarian or UU or something like that….but maybe I’m confusing my conversations; it might be ConantheLibrarian.
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Thank you are right it should be abandoned’ My understanding Thomas is an Episcopalian , ConantheLibrarian is an Unitarian or UU, as for my self I am Pentecostal Minister, since 1994. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in Pastoral Ministry and Minor in Bible and Theology and Minor in Christian Education.
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I do not believe that suggesting a person repent from sin is uncaring or callous. If it is then Jesus was so. Luke 13:3
Not bringing the sin forward is uncaring and callous.
Are we to say “I’m OK, your OK”?
Does the Book of James no longer have meaning?
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I find it not only possible but common that we say the right things in the wrong way.
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HopeSprings:
“you are going to have to explain what it means to repent. Remeber he comes from a Church that does not teach about sin and repenting from sin.”
Admittedly, I know very little about the church in question, but if memory serves me, you are speaking about the Episcopalian Church. Correct?
In the thread on Brit Hume and Fox News, the article stated that Mr. Hume was Episcopalian. Did he not preach a clear Gospel?
ha! Good point. Well Roy?
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DJ: I think ‘abandoned’ is the word you’re looking for. I thought Thomas was Unitarian or UU or something like that….but maybe I’m confusing my conversations; it might be ConantheLibrarian.
I am UU. Thomas is Episcopalian. However, I think Thomas and I are fairly similar in what we believe, although we worship under different roofs and in different traditions. (I don’t want to presume, Thomas may disagree, but that’s my impression.)
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True, Fisherman. Unfortunate, but true. We want to share the truth, but sometimes in winning the battle, we lose the person.
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ConanTheLibrarian 01.07.10 AT 3:58 PM
HopeSprings:
“you are going to have to explain what it means to repent. Remeber he comes from a Church that does not teach about sin and repenting from sin.”
Admittedly, I know very little about the church in question, but if memory serves me, you are speaking about the Episcopalian Church. Correct?
In the thread on Brit Hume and Fox News, the article stated that Mr. Hume was Episcopalian. Did he not preach a clear Gospel?
ha! Good point. Well Roy?
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you do not read other posting very well do you.
There are two Episcopalian Groups today. The frist groups has abandoned’ the Word of God, an no longer view it as being true. The second group has broken away from the first group over the issue of sin and the Word of God.
I do not know which group Mr. Hume belongs to, I do know Thomas belongs to the frist group which has abandoned’ the Word of God, an no longer view it as being true
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hopesprings 01.07.10 AT 4:02 PM
True, Fisherman. Unfortunate, but true. We want to share the truth, but sometimes in winning the battle, we lose the person.
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Some times it looks like we are losing the person, but the seeds that were planted in the battle, may grow in that person, and he or she years later may come to Christ.
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I admire Brit Hume.
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Just how PC must we get when calling sinners to repentance?
The church in America is to often on the slippery slope to death, with so many blind leading the blind.
Many such as pastor Roy will stand before the Lord and hear “well done, good and faithful servant…”, while multitudes will shake with fear as they say; “But Lord ,Lord…”
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#57 Thanks, Conan
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“but the seeds that were planted in the battle”
We are not at war with people in our witness. We are at war with the Devil. Treating people like the enemy is not an effective way to win them.
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Andree – I don’t always understand your writing, but this was a straightforward, thoughtful piece that even I could comprehend.
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#60 Some times it looks like we are losing the person, but the seeds that were planted in the battle, may grow in that person, and he or she years later may come to Christ
As long as the truth is really spoken in love, I think that’s very accurate. It’s all too easy to let anger or pride creep in, and that can be destructive. But nothing done in true love is ever wasted. And even though we are imperfect in our presentation, God uses the humble vessel that is willing.
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How does one lose a person that is already lost?
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Fisherman, I should have used the word “argument” rather than “battle”.
Also, as far as being PC, perhaps this is the standard:
“And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph’s son?” (Lu 4:22)
“Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.” (Col 4:6)
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fisherman 01.07.10 AT 4:30 PM
“but the seeds that were planted in the battle”
We are not at war with people in our witness. We are at war with the Devil. Treating people like the enemy is not an effective way to win them.
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it is a spiritual battle, but we are in a battle and the seeds get planted in the mist of this spiritual battle
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DJ 01.07.10 AT 4:32 PM
#60 Some times it looks like we are losing the person, but the seeds that were planted in the battle, may grow in that person, and he or she years later may come to Christ
As long as the truth is really spoken in love, I think that’s very accurate. It’s all too easy to let anger or pride creep in, and that can be destructive. But nothing done in true love is ever wasted. And even though we are imperfect in our presentation, God uses the humble vessel that is willing
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many time you can be speaking or written in love about the truth, but the person hearing or reading what you have said, can not see the love in your speaking or in this case your written due to their anger or conviction of the Holy Sprit.
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#70 That’s true, Pastor Roy.
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#68: And they were the ones who in the end cried; “Crucify Him…”
And the second was spoken by a man who said; “I wish they would castrate themselves..”
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All this is going nowhere. Have a good rest of the day.
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DJ 01.07.10 AT 4:42 PM
#70 That’s true, Pastor Roy.
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This is the hardest task as a Christian in present the truth.
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roger patno 01.07.10 AT 4:43 PM
All this is going nowhere. Have a good rest of the day.
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have a great day
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Rober, surely you are not denegrating the value of Col. 4:6 and the Apostle Paul because of that translation of another verse?
I think you missed my point also. The Lord used “gracious words” which sort of implies that we are to do likewise.
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We don’t lose people, it the individual who turns against Christ, who loses Salvation – it isn’t the fault of someone who is trying to tell them about Jesus – no matter how you may view their testimony.
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Sorry for the typing error on your name, Roger.
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BUT as much a fan as I am of Britt Hume, he is not being persecuted for sharing the gospel. He is being persecuted because of Christianity or as he said the “Christian faith”. Christianity or the “Christian faith” hasn’t transformed anyone’s life. Only Jesus without religious baggage can do that! Jesus is the gospel!
As long as we box Jesus into the Christian box and wrap Him up with Christianity, we will see more and more persecution. The reaction is not against Jesus, but against Christianity or the Christian faith. Tiger Woods doesn’t need to be converted by Christianity or the Christian faith; Tiger needs Jesus…simply Jesus! There is a big difference! Christianity is hated and feared by so many; Jesus is irresistible!
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As long as we box Jesus into the Christian box and wrap Him up with Christianity, we will see more and more persecution. The reaction is not against Jesus, but against Christianity or the Christian faith.
That sounds nice, but it’s not what Jesus taught, Tim:
“No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” John 15:20
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TIM TIMMONS 01.07.10 AT 4:52 PM
BUT as much a fan as I am of Britt Hume, he is not being persecuted for sharing the gospel. He is being persecuted because of Christianity or as he said the “Christian faith”. Christianity or the “Christian faith” hasn’t transformed anyone’s life. Only Jesus without religious baggage can do that! Jesus is the gospel!
As long as we box Jesus into the Christian box and wrap Him up with Christianity, we will see more and more persecution. The reaction is not against Jesus, but against Christianity or the Christian faith. Tiger Woods doesn’t need to be converted by Christianity or the Christian faith; Tiger needs Jesus…simply Jesus! There is a big difference! Christianity is hated and feared by so many; Jesus is irresistible!
–
God’s Word saids something different then what you just posted.
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DJ 01.07.10 AT 4:59 PM
As long as we box Jesus into the Christian box and wrap Him up with Christianity, we will see more and more persecution. The reaction is not against Jesus, but against Christianity or the Christian faith.
That sounds nice, but it’s not what Jesus taught, Tim:
“No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” John 15:20
–
I was thinking about the same passage
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Pastor Roy! Please check out who Jesus was referring to when He said the world hated Him and will hate those who follow Him. He says they will throw you out of their synagogues. He’s not referring to the secular world, but the religious world will hate you, beat you and throw you out.
The religious persecution around the world is just that…religious persecution! Where Jesus has been lifted up without man-made conversion techniques employed, the persecution is not happening and the results are astounding. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims et al are following after Jesus and coming to know Him personally. He then transforms their hearts after a time of following Him, just as happened to the early disciples.
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No, Jesus is resisted by millions.
Are you the same person who was pastor of South Coast Community Church in southern CA and then left? – We attended there for a short period of time.
I’m am not surprised at your comments regarding Christianity, I don’t agree with you. Jesus is exactly what CHRISTianity is all about – whether people want to spin the label that is worn by every Born Again Believer makes no difference, Christianity is not hated by everyone.
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“If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.” John 15:19
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TIM TIMMONS 01.07.10 AT 5:08 PM
Pastor Roy! Please check out who Jesus was referring to when He said the world hated Him and will hate those who follow Him. He says they will throw you out of their synagogues. He’s not referring to the secular world, but the religious world will hate you, beat you and throw you out.
The religious persecution around the world is just that…religious persecution! Where Jesus has been lifted up without man-made conversion techniques employed, the persecution is not happening and the results are astounding. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims et al are following after Jesus and coming to know Him personally. He then transforms their hearts after a time of following Him, just as happened to the early disciples.
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Tim sorry When Jesus spoke “No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.” John 15:20
He was talking about the world. Read John chapter 1, Matthew 24, Acts,Revelation, look what Roman did to the Christian, look at 3/4 of the world where Christian are under direct attack.
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Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:12
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An this is happen now.
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Victoria – look how the Asian Countries, Mild Eastern Countries, African Countries, Eastern and Western European Countries, Canada, treat Our Brother and Sister in the Lord.
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Must come back for a moment: Thanks for the response Hopesprings.
I do not denegrate Col. 1:16 and I have the most respect for Paul and all the saints. I simply point out facts.
I also refuse to accept the fact that I point out the need for repentance as uncaring and callous.
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword…”
A sword is not pleasant to have applied to ones self.
And it cannot be made pleasant.
Also, I am famous for mis-spelling, myself.
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roger patno – God Bless you
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I appreciate what you’re saying and meaning by your comments. Three things you seem to move away from:
1. Jesus defines who the world is in John 15 and 16 and the description is of the religious who hate and persecute Jesus and His disciples. This is precisely why Jesus never fired away at the sinners in the “world”, but the religious world. Why is that?
2. To believe that Jesus is somehow owned by Christians and Christianity is to keep the people of the world from Jesus and Jesus from the people of the world. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, John, James Jude and Paul never even used the term. The Jesus movement is all about following Jesus, not a system of beliefs organized around a cultural religious system of the West.
3. And, FINALLY, what so many are not aware of is that there are millions of people today who are not from the Western, Christian cultural background, who are learning to follow Jesus just as the early disciples did. These are Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Animists and even agnostics who are now following and coming to worship Jesus as their Lord. And, in the same way the early disciples didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God at first but took some time as they followed Jesus for the Spirit of God to transform their hearts and give them that understanding, so today we are seeing this amazing phenomenon happening all over the world. They are being saved by Christianity or the Christian faith, but by Jesus. NOW that is what the Scriptures teach!
Check out a biblical delineation of this approach at http://timtimmons.blogspot.com/2007/08/christianity-isnt-way-jesus-is.html
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You know what I’ve noticed is when I lift up Jesus above Christianity or any other religious system of do’s and don’ts, I get a barrage of attacks (persecution?). Not questions or discussions, but pronouncements and remarks like “I’m not surprised that YOU would say such a thing”. Interesting….
The late Dr. Ralph Winter was enthusiastically supportive of what I’m sharing with you had knowledge of the Jesus movements throughout the world that are not called “Christian”. (Dr. Winter…founder of the US Center for World Missions)
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Got to leave for now…am off to teach a group of Christians about the pre-eminence of Jesus! That’s where the action is! Love you all….
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Tim,
I’m not familiar with this movement you speak of, nor how orthodox it is or isn’t. I can only say two things:
(1) While Christians follow Christ, not “Christianity,” Christian truth is found only in the Bible, and cannot be divorced from it. It can be divorced from various systems, but not from Scripture.
(2) While it’s wonderful if people from other religions are showing interest in Jesus, they cannot have Jesus and the other religion too. Christianity (following Jesus) is incompatible with other religions, and truth cannot have both.
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I’ve been a Christian since an early age, and NEVER have I EVER heard that Jesus is owned by anyone – it isn’t clever to say such a thing, never mind phrase it in such a way as to make it appear someone else HAS. There is no Bible student who would be foolish enough to make such a remark…. and I doubt many who are un-learned in the Word of God would think of saying something such as you have posted.
Becoming a Believer is knowing Christ Jesus and studying HIS Word. Jesus isn’t a “movement” HE is our only Salvation.
As far as “TERMS” which you pointed out –
1. No one ever used the term “Bible” as the Word of God, but millions indeed do.
2. Trinity isn’t found in the Bible but we use it to describe the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son and God the HOLY Spirit.
3. Atheism isn’t used in the Bible but we use it to define those individuals who believe there is no God.
4. Omnipotence – definition: all powerful this word is not in the Bible.
5. Omniscience – definition: all knowing, again this isn’t found in the Bible.
6. Omnipresence – definition: as being present everywhere again not found in the Bible.
Because these terms are not found in the Bible does not negate their importance or correct Biblical use. I’m pointing this out to you in an attempt to show that there are terms which ARE used.
No one can have an eternity without Believing in Jesus Christ, that is a fact. That doesn’t mean the Believer owns Christ, it means the Believer has surrendered himself to the LORD, and Believed in HIM for Salvation.
Tim Timmons, this isn’t a backward group of people that are reading your posts, many are educated, for the most part and devout Christians, they know the Word of GOD – they do not fall for the latest ‘pep’ words and phrases that have come from ‘SOME of the churches,…… they have studied as the Bible says:
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#79 – Tim Timmons wrote; “Christianity or the “Christian faith” hasn’t transformed anyone’s life. Only Jesus without religious baggage can do that! Jesus is the gospel!”
Tim, this is convoluted. Christianity and “the Christian faith” IS the belief that only Jesus can transform a life. That’s the point of classic and orthodox Christianity.
I differ strongly with the nonsesne that we can have our Jesus without Christianity or the church. This may not be you, Tim, but this fad is usually just word games for people who want to feel “spiritual” but don’t really want to practice real-life faith or religion for a real God.
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Tim has some unusual notions. He appears to eschew Christianity and religion (or “religious baggage,” as he calls it), under the pretext of holding only to the “preeminence of Jesus.” Just ask him questions like, “Who is Jesus?” and “What does it mean to follow him?” Any answer he gives will involve some sort of doctrine, in other words, the very “religious baggage” he opposes.
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Buzzy – very insightful!
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My plea is that more people do indeed embrace Christianity honestly, sincerely, genuinely and wholeheartedly. What that means is that you repent of your sins, surrender fully to Jesus Christ, accept him as Lord and Savior, let the Holy Spirit transform you and embrace the body of Christ (His church).
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Unfortunately this is true – and I do mean it’s unfortunate. Prayer is powerful, and it is the ONLY thing I suggest.
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Tim Timmons wrote; “Christianity is hated and feared by so many; Jesus is irresistible!”
Have you read the gospels, Tim? Actually, it was Jesus who was hated and feared by so many. And Christianity is often hated and feared today presicely BECAUSE it is rooted in Jesus Christ and it stands up for truth, morality and repentance like no other movement or faith on earth. That’s why it is hated.
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Your plea Joel should be everyone’s prayer for those who need Jesus Christ as Savior, who are lost and confused. Christ can reach anyone if they OPEN the DOOR to their hearts, no matter what situation they find themselves in.
GOD bless you my friend.
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Jesus was hated and opposed by civic leaders, both secular and religious. In ancient Israel, there was no real separation of synagogue and state. So it is incorrect to dichotomize Jesus’ opponents and call them only religious leaders. The Saducees were every bit as much political leaders as religious, even more so. The Pharisees were also highly civic in their role as well. In that society, they were as much civic & “secular” as they were religious.
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To Victoria – And you too, my friend.
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Tim Timmons wrote; “…when I lift up Jesus above Christianity or any other religious system of do’s and don’ts, I get a barrage of attacks (persecution?).”
Be careful, Tim. I don’t think you are being “attacked,” at least not by me. However, I must be frank and this frankness may feel like an attack. It’s not. But I think your understanding is flawed and your comments can do harm to the kingdom, for reasons I stated above.
I am 55 and have been a pastor for many years. I have come to love the Lord’s church in an unexplanable way. I am called to serve her and this does not contradict my call to serve God above all. I have also been a professor and held other leadership roles serving God’s kingdom. I studied at Fuller Seminary when Ralph Winder was there. He has made a lot of changes over the years (not always for the better either) and I presume you will too–hopefully for the better though. I offer my criticism of your comments in love and respect.
Most of all, Tim, Christianity is so much more than a system of dos and don’ts. That’s the dichotomy that you should be making–separating your understanding of Christianity from such a cheap and worldly stereotype of it.
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Tim Timmons: BUT as much a fan as I am of Britt Hume, he is not being persecuted for sharing the gospel. He is being persecuted because of Christianity or as he said the “Christian faith”.
He isn’t being persecuted, at all.
Talk to Christians in oppressive countries who have to assemble in secret and risk being imprisoned or executed. They would laugh in your face to hear you describe the reaction to Hume’s words as “being persecuted.”
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BY CHERYL D. 01.07.10 AT 8:43 PM
“I’m not familiar with this movement you speak of, nor how orthodox it is or isn’t. I can only say two things:
(1) While Christians follow Christ, not “Christianity,” Christian truth is found only in the Bible, and cannot be divorced from it. It can be divorced from various systems, but not from Scripture.
(2) While it’s wonderful if people from other religions are showing interest in Jesus, they cannot have Jesus and the other religion too. Christianity (following Jesus) is incompatible with other religions, and truth cannot have both.”
Cheryl,
Who or what group decides what is orthodox or not? (1) Paul was a follower of the Christ, but didn’t have a relationship with Jesus until Jesus apprehended him on the road to Damascus. Jesus warned the religious leadership that they were so into searching the scriptures believing they will find eternal life in the scriptures. But, Jesus says, “The scriptures speak of me and I will give you eternal life, but you don’t seek me.” It is possible to study and follow the Bible and still not be following Jesus as Jesus required. (2) Christianity is a western, cultural religious system of following Christ…nothing wrong there. However, Jesus didn’t come into the world to make the entire world Christian. He did not come into the world for Christians. He came into the world to reach the whole world…all cultures, not just the Western culture. The Syrophoenician woman had Jesus and her non-Jewish/non-Christian culture. The Roman official with the greatest faith Jesus had ever seen in Israel had Jesus and went back into his Roman culture. The demoniac had Jesus and Jesus sent him back into the Decapolis to tell his own culture what God had done for him. The woman at the well was still a cultural Samaritan and yet now has Jesus. Of course, Jesus can be followed and known and worshipped within other religious cultural backgrounds.
With the Jewish world, we accommodated them by saying Jesus will make you more complete…even make you a better Jew, so we’ll call Jews who follow Jesus Messianic Jews. Why not Messianic Muslims, etc.???
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I am not into playing a word game, but want to honestly follow Jesus and His teachings. If Jesus says something and a Bible scholar differ on something, who would you go with? Jesus made it clear who will enter the Kingdom of heaven and who will not. It’s an interesting study. Check it out. Also, Biblically speaking, being a believer isn’t enough. Demons are believers, false prophets who prophesy in Jesus’ name, cast out demons in Jesus’ name and perform miracles in His name are believers, and you are believers. So, who is right? Jesus says, “Only those who do the will of my Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven.” In the next paragraph in Matthew 7 Jesus says that if you hear Jesus’ words and practice them, you will be like a wise man who builds his house on a rock. Or, if you hear Jesus’ words and do not practice them, you will be like a man who builds his house on the sand. Doing the will of the Father seems to be following Jesus.
My greatest concern is best expressed by Paul in II Cor 11:3: “I’m afraid lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, that your minds might be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.”
I like these comments…
JESUS ALONE IS ENOUGH.
JESUS PLUS SOMETHING IS NOTHING.
JESUS PLUS NOTHING IS EVERYTHING.
I really believe Jesus meant it when He said, “Without me you can do nothing.”
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CONANTHELIBRARIAN 01.07.10 AT 10:59 PM
Tim Timmons: BUT as much a fan as I am of Britt Hume, he is not being persecuted for sharing the gospel. He is being persecuted because of Christianity or as he said the “Christian faith”.
He isn’t being persecuted, at all.
Talk to Christians in oppressive countries who have to assemble in secret and risk being imprisoned or executed. They would laugh in your face to hear you describe the reaction to Hume’s words as “being persecuted.”
Conan,
I am only using the terminology out of the many articles and news releases. Obviously, the verbal persecution is all Hume has experienced (Jesus speaks of this kind of persecution in the beatitudes). Persecution gets so much more severe around the world. My point is that if you are going to be persecuted, make sure it is for your righteousness in following Jesus as Jesus says rather than for your conversion tactics to make others Christians or rip them out of their cultures and convert them into our Western, Christian culture.
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Tim, thanks for answering my questions. No, this is not orthodox Christianity you espouse, and it isn’t what Jesus taught. One cannot be a follower of Jesus and another god too. Please do read the Gospels. Read the whole Bible, actually. Jesus said that He is the only way to God. Not Jesus plus Mohammed, Jesus plus Buddha, etc. The early Christians (and many Christians today) were willing to die for the exclusive claims of Christ. And no, it isn’t “Jesus and me,” either. The Christian is part of Christ’s body, the church. I’m sorry for whatever deception you have encountered, but it isn’t truth. Only Jesus offers truth, and it is found in His Word.
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Tim Timmons – 108
No Tim, Paul WAS NOT a follower of Christ. He persecuted anyone who was, that’s not a follower that is someone who persecutes those who follow Jesus. Tim you go on and on, but you don’t make the points. Obviously by saying Paul was a “follower of the Christ” is false – for that reason your argument fails. Paul followed Christ to persecute, not to “follow” as one would consider the kindness and love of “follow” – Tim, this group is not into ‘word games’ and so called ‘clever phrases’ –
NOTICE: If Saul/Paul found ANY, that “he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem” – this is not a man who followed Christ is a loving way, but persecuted those who followed Christ.
Tim Timmons, here we see the persecution which Saul/Paul had waged against Christ and those who were HIS followers. Saul/Paul was not a loving follower of Jesus, he persecuted anyone who dared follow HIM. Your assertion that Paul was a follower of Jesus is FALSE. You confuse the issue by saying ………
- – “Paul was a follower of the Christ, but didn’t have a relationship with Jesus until Jesus apprehended him on the road to Damascus.” – - Tim Timmons
Mixing “follower” an “relationship” …. trying to make a case either way is FALSE.
Tim Timmons – at this time Saul/Paul was not a Christian Believer or follower he had been on a mission to persecute those who WERE Christians – Can you see this, can you see that you have confused the issue of FOLLOWER and RELATIONSHIP?
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Jesus came into the world to die for man’s sins, for those who Believe upon HIM and repented of their sin. You cannot become a Believer unless you believe on Christ and are Born Again, repenting of your sin.
You post – - “He came into the world to reach the whole world…all cultures, not just the Western culture.” – -
When Tim Timmons, does the Bible say or did anyone say that Christ came just to save western culture? – at the time of Christ’s death the middle east, etc, didn’t know about western anything – certainly you should think this through before making such statements. The Bible is clear that Christ came to save man from sin, …. it doesn’t have a section of the world in mind, nor has anyone I have known ever uttered such nonsense.
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Cheryl – I didn’t see your post number 111 until just now – EXCELLENT!
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Quote Roger #90:
“Must come back for a moment: Thanks for the response Hopesprings.
I do not denegrate Col. 1:16 and I have the most respect for Paul and all the saints. I simply point out facts.
I also refuse to accept the fact that I point out the need for repentance as uncaring and callous.
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword…”
A sword is not pleasant to have applied to ones self.
And it cannot be made pleasant.
Also, I am famous for mis-spelling, myself.”
Good morning, Roger.:) I wasn’t implying that to point out a need for repentance was uncaring. Peter and Paul didn’t mince words in the Book of Acts. However, sometimes our interactions with believers (and unbelievers) could use some polishing. None of us are excluded.
And, yes, some of the best counsel I’ve received came in pretty blunt form (a smack upside the head, if you will), but usually I knew the person delivering the hard words pretty well and was convinced of their care for me.
It all takes wisdom, doesn’t it?
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Hopesprings:
“It all takes wisdom, doesn’t it?
I agree.
Blessings on your day.
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And to you, Roger!
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(1) Paul was a follower of the Christ, but didn’t have a relationship with Jesus until Jesus apprehended him on the road to Damascus. Jesus warned the religious leadership that they were so into searching the scriptures believing they will find eternal life in the scriptures. But, Jesus says, “The scriptures speak of me and I will give you eternal life, but you don’t seek me.” It is possible to study and follow the Bible and still not be following Jesus as Jesus required.
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Paul was not a follower of Christ until after the road to Damascus.
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how do you separate Jesus from Christianity, an Christianity from Jesus?
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When someone says someone is a follower of THE Christ, he does not necessarily mean the Jesus Christ of the bible.
My heart hurts for those so mixed up by following false shepherds, who mislead them.
I agree with Cheryl. Prayerfully read the whole bible. The new testament is not divorced from the old. It makes no sense without the old and the old is completed in the new. The Holy Spirit uses many things to help us know God and his son. He can use parts of the bible without the whole, but if you really want to see the big picture and understand, read it all. In some places in the world, they do not have that opportunity. We do. Take advantage of it.
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The Old Testament Messiah was referred to as “The Christ.” So yes, Paul, (while Saul) as a zealous Jew, was a follower of “The Christ.” (Though certainly ignorant of the fact that Jesus is The Christ.)
My concern with TT’s comments are his double-talk that Jesus is all we need, and then saying that we can’t get into heaven without doing the Father’s will. #109. He seems to be adding some sort of works to Jesus. Also he reminds me of those who are ultra critical of “Church”. They say they love Jesus but hate the Church. Jesus certainly loves His Church, even with all its warts.
It is true that there is much that the Evangelical Church needs to Biblically reevaluate. But it seems to me that TT is approaching some unbiblical extremes. At least, while strongly disagreeing he is very courteous. That is an example some of us could follow.
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KI 01.08.10 AT 10:37 AM
When someone says someone is a follower of THE Christ, he does not necessarily mean the Jesus Christ of the bible.
My heart hurts for those so mixed up by following false shepherds, who mislead them.
I agree with Cheryl. Prayerfully read the whole bible. The new testament is not divorced from the old. It makes no sense without the old and the old is completed in the new. The Holy Spirit uses many things to help us know God and his son. He can use parts of the bible without the whole, but if you really want to see the big picture and understand, read it all. In some places in the world, they do not have that opportunity. We do. Take advantage of it.
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My heart breaks also. It sadden me to see so many people fall into the trap of a false jesus.
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fisherman 01.08.10 AT 10:48 AM
The Old Testament Messiah was referred to as “The Christ.” So yes, Paul, (while Saul) as a zealous Jew, was a follower of “The Christ.” (Though certainly ignorant of the fact that Jesus is The Christ.)
My concern with TT’s comments are his double-talk that Jesus is all we need, and then saying that we can’t get into heaven without doing the Father’s will. #109. He seems to be adding some sort of works to Jesus. Also he reminds me of those who are ultra critical of “Church”. They say they love Jesus but hate the Church. Jesus certainly loves His Church, even with all its warts.
It is true that there is much that the Evangelical Church needs to Biblically reevaluate. But it seems to me that TT is approaching some unbiblical extremes. At least, while strongly disagreeing he is very courteous. That is an example some of us could follow.
–
I guess in a round about way Paul was following Christ, before the he meet him on that road.
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“My concern with TT’s comments are his double-talk that Jesus is all we need, and then saying that we can’t get into heaven without doing the Father’s will. #109. He seems to be adding some sort of works to Jesus. Also he reminds me of those who are ultra critical of “Church”. They say they love Jesus but hate the Church. Jesus certainly loves His Church, even with all its warts.”
fisherman
Would you call this idea that the Church is bad but I love Jesus as a trap of the devil. To stop people from going to Church, where they can hear God’s Word taught and preached, that could help the grow in Christ?
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Tim T wrote:
“JESUS ALONE IS ENOUGH.
JESUS PLUS SOMETHING IS NOTHING.
JESUS PLUS NOTHING IS EVERYTHING.”
It is wise and biblcal to put Jesus in the center of all our concerns, hopes and needs. However, to isolate Jesus from all other concerns, gifts, blessings, or needs is unhealthy. That’s not what Jesus intended. Putting Jesus first does not mean deleting everything else (or using language that sounds like you are deleting everything else).
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Tim T wrote; “Who or what group decides what is orthodox or not? (1) Paul was a follower of the Christ, but didn’t have a relationship with Jesus until Jesus apprehended him on the road to Damascus…”
As Victoria pointed out, Saul of Tarsus (later, “Paul”) was not a follower of Jesus at all prior to being apprehended by Jesus. But I would add that the Paul who had been apprehended by Jesus is the answer to your first question too. All over the Mediterrainian world as well as the NT, he was quite willing to decide what was orthodox or not for the churches he wrote and served. And he commissioned men like Timothy, Titus and many others with the same sort of authority.
Tim added: “(2) Christianity is a western, cultural religious system of following Christ…”
No, Christianity is universal. It’s not exclusively Western and it’s not just a “system” either. It is a much bigger and better blessing than you seem to realize. The harm in your thinking, Tim, is that you seem too willing to cut yourself and others off from a wonderful legacy and heritage of faith that has faithfully (but imperfectly) been carried from generation to generation to this day. This heritage teaches that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and it offers a Christ-cnetered community or family of support with common ground to stand on in the present world.
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Tim Timmons asked; “Why not Messianic Muslims, etc.”
Because Muslims do not even believe in God the Father. The notion that God had a Son makes them furious. The core Christian confession as well as the person and work of Jesus Christ is completely eliminated by Islam. Muslims also do not believe it was even Jesus who died on the cross. And there is no forgiveness of sin without the blood of Jesus Christ. Plus, Muslim follow completely different scriptures.
Intellectual honesty forbids any such perversion of Jesus’ legacy as the phrase “Messianic Muslims.”
_______________
However, being a “Messianic Muslim” would be a creative way to claim Jesus and still have four wives. You can write your own religious ticket if you claim “Jesus” but disclaim “Christianity” and our Christian heritage and tradition and replace it with the heritage or tradition of your choice.
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I’ve also wondered about the use of the term “Messianic Jew”, Joel Mark. Wouldn’t a Messianic Jew be a Christian?
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Thanks all of you who took the time to answer specific points in detail. There were so many errors I didn’t even want to get start on the specifics! Tim, I very much hope you get a chance to come back and read these–and then take what we say to Scripture and search for yourself.
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Joel it sounds like this person Tim was hurt by the Church, so he no longer believes in the Christian Church.
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Hopesprings, yes, a Messianic Jew is a Christian. But “Christian” began as a term of derision; it isn’t an essential thing to call ourselves that. I think “Messianic Jews” use that term instead for purposes of evangelism with fellow Jews. All Jews claim to be waiting for the Messiah; Messianic Jews can tell others that they have found Him, and they emphasize in the term that they are Jewish. (Many of them seem to hold to traditions that Christ has actually done away with; possibly both they and Gentile Christians would be better served to have them not separate themselves in such a way. But I think that’s the reason they do, concern for fellow Jews who haven’t claimed the Messiah.)
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hopesprings 01.08.10 AT 12:01 PM
I’ve also wondered about the use of the term “Messianic Jew”, Joel Mark. Wouldn’t a Messianic Jew be a Christian?
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Yes, but I heard a Messianic Jew speak an he spoke on the issue that no where is the Scripture does it tell the Jewish people who worship Christ. To abandon the OT Law. So the Messianic Jew, does all the special services the OT Law tell the Jewish People to celebrate.
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Hopesprings,
A “Messianic Jew” would be a Christian (or not) for all the same reasons that anyone can be a Christian (or not). Do they believe on Jesus as the Son of God? Muslims clearly and vociferously do NOT. Do they regard Jesus as the Messiah (or ‘Christ’)? Do they repent of their sins and accept the forgiveness that comes through the blood of Christ? Are they seeking first the kingdom of heaven and His righteousness? The standard is the same for all and God is the final judge. Beyond that, what label one uses becomes a matter of intellectual honesty.
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The encounter here on the blog regarding Tim Timmons is one that was very unexpected. I come to all of you here as my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus to pray for this man. I awakened several times last last thinking about this, and praying. My husband and I both, are saddened at what we read – but not surprised.
Pastor Roy wrote: – “Joel it sounds like this person Tim was hurt by the Church, so he no longer believes in the Christian Church.” – No, that isn’t what happened, but I refuse to discuss what transpired almost twenty years ago. Roy, you are a kind gentle man whom I have enjoyed getting to know. God is in control, God alone knows all about the lives of each one of us. It is with great sadness when I read some of these posts.
Again I ask, please pray – God can change hearts, HE can make things new.
Tim Timmons, I hope you do come back to this blog. There are some wonderful people here. Some are pastor’s such as Joel Mark who gave his background. There are others who are pastors as well and still others who are studied in the Word of God, and would be your friend, many have attended Bible schools and Seminary across the U.S. – it is no coincidence that you came to this blog and posted.
God bless you Tim, I really mean that -
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There are two places in the Word of God where “Christian” is used.
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Victoria, that’s true that “Christian” is only used twice. “Believer” is also only used a couple of times and “Saint” is used quite a bit.
Joel, I guess I just wonder why a different term is used that does not seem to appear in the NT? Like Cheryl said in #131, it does seem to be a separating term, but I can also understand what she meant when she said:
“But I think that’s the reason they do, concern for fellow Jews who haven’t claimed the Messiah.”
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Pastor Roy, that person’s interpretation is unfortunately faulty, if for no other reason because nowhere in the New Testament are Gentile Christians told to become Jews and follow the Jewish rituals. In fact, church councils met over that very question–like whether Gentiles had to be circumcised.
Biblically, Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are one body, with no distinction between them. So, unless this man can prove from Scripture either (1) Gentiles and Jews come to Christ in different ways and worship Him in different ways or (2) Gentile Christians are called to come under the Old Testament Law (neither of which can be done), his argument is unsound.
Unfortunately, Gentile Christians haven’t done a good job either of valuing the Jewish roots of our faith or challenging such half-truths by our Jewish brothers. This is error, and it divides the body of Christ by race (which Paul adamantly did not allow), and I think Paul might even go so far as to say it crucifies Christ all over again. (I forget the context in which he said that, but I think it was something similar to this.)
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Victoria, one more verse, though it’s a plural use of Christian, and I don’t remember the reference: The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Years ago I did a Bible study on uses of the word “Christian” and uses of the word “disciple,” calling the youth not to claim the first term without the second.
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Wouldn’t this apply?
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Ga 3:28)
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Victoria – Pastor Roy wrote: – “Joel it sounds like this person Tim was hurt by the Church, so he no longer believes in the Christian Church.” – No, that isn’t what happened, but I refuse to discuss what transpired almost twenty years ago. Roy, you are a kind gentle man whom I have enjoyed getting to know. God is in control, God alone knows all about the lives of each one of us. It is with great sadness when I read some of these posts.
–
thanks for a little bit more information, I was just going off tim posting, since I do not kow him,
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Cheryl D. 01.08.10 AT 2:37 PM
Pastor Roy, that person’s interpretation is unfortunately faulty, if for no other reason because nowhere in the New Testament are Gentile Christians told to become Jews and follow the Jewish rituals. In fact, church councils met over that very question–like whether Gentiles had to be circumcised.
–
I was just repeating what a Messianic Jew said.
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Cheryl, thank you, I did leave the verse below out.
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It looks like the differences between Tim Timmons and others here have to do with the definition of Christianity. To evangelical Christians, it is the truth about Jesus and salvation, and a way of life following Jesus. (Maybe someone else can provide a better way of saying it.)
To many (professing) Christians and to most if not all non-Christians, Christianity is a religion, including various doctrines (many of which the different branches of the religion do not agree on), institutions (churches and their traditions), rituals and practices. Evangelical Christians can argue that “cultural Christians” are not true Christians, that churches that don’t believe the Bible is true are not truly Christian churches, and that certain doctrines and practices are not part of true Christianity. But to many people, that’s just one group of Christians trying to define the religion for everyone.
Words mean what people use them to mean, and when most people use Christianity to mean a religion that includes all variants that use the name Christian, that’s what they mean when they say it and that’s what they think when they hear or read it. And I think that’s what Tim Timmons is trying to get away from. For many (possibly most) people in the non-Western world, “Christianity” is a Western religion.
There are two ways to deal with that reality. One is to try to teach people that Christianity is really about believing what Jesus taught and following Him. The other is to give up on the word Christianity, as Tim Timmons has done, and talk about believing what Jesus taught and following Him as something that does not require the Christian religion.
Either one is going to cause confusion for some people. For two thousand years, believing what Jesus taught and following Him has been known as Christianity. But along the way it has also become known as a Western religion and associated with a lot of practices which are not essential to following Jesus. Personally I would rather try to teach people what I think true Christianity is, but I think I can understand why someone like Tim Timmons might prefer to take a different approach.
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Pauline, I think you’re giving him too much credit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt initially, and asked him to clarify his meaning. (I didn’t have much reason for hope, but technically it was possible that when he said Jesus isn’t just for Christians but for other religions as well, that he was saying that those in other religions can come to Jesus, leave those false religions, and be saved. His answer to me clarified that he was not saying that.) Once he had answered me, there was no “doubt” left–he is not teaching that Jesus is the only way to God, and that people who follow other religions are in error. His teaching (or beliefs, rather–I don’t know if he’s a teacher) is thus heresy. It isn’t a matter of just defining words differently; this is error.
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Cheryl D. “Once he had answered me, there was no “doubt” left–he is not teaching that Jesus is the only way to God, and that people who follow other religions are in error. His teaching (or beliefs, rather–I don’t know if he’s a teacher) is thus heresy. It isn’t a matter of just defining words differently; this is error.”
What you said it the truth. The problem is when someone is filled with a false teaching, Like this one it is hard for them to see the truth of God’s Word.
Now I would like to point out that those of us who disagrees with tim views are all from different Christian Group. Which should put to rest this false arugement that we can not agress on any thing.
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Yes it certainly does Pastor Roy – AMEN!
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Pastor Roy, I know you didn’t say you agreed with the Messianic Jew; I was merely pointing out that he is in error. I think we have a tendency to assume Jewish believers must be “correct” because they have a Jewish background, but Paul was quick to confront such errors (in Peter and others) and I think we need to call them errors, while at the same time being eager to be corrected if the Jewish believer can correct our own misinterpretation.
I think the church has lost a lot in not having Jewish believers actually in our congregations. (In my entire life, I’ve known only a few Jewish believers. One was a Catholic, and a few were in Bible college with me, because one of our professors was a Jewish Christian and others came to the school to train under him. I cannot think of a single Jewish believer I’ve ever attended church with, and I’m talking about three different states, many churches, and many decades.) I’m not saying that’s “our fault” or “their fault”–just that it’s unfortunate, and not what Christ intended.
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Cheryl D. – I under stand. Have you ever took part of a Jewish passover meal?
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Pastor Roy, yes, I did, and really enjoyed it. Well, it wasn’t actually a “meal”; we didn’t eat anything but matzah and (for those who were brave–not me) horseradish, but it was an explanation of the Passover, with parts of it acted out, in a small group.
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Cheryl, I lived in a Jewish community in West L.A, near UCLA – numerous Jewish deli’s, I became a fan of Jewish food. Horseradish sauce is fab on prime rib – most of it isn’t hot, it’s mild, but used sparingly as you eat the prime rib, barely dipping it. Another fav is borscht soup, which is made of beets, served cold with a dollop of sour cream on top…. I love it.
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Fisherman at #121: My concern with TT’s comments are his double-talk that Jesus is all we need, and then saying that we can’t get into heaven without doing the Father’s will. #109. He seems to be adding some sort of works to Jesus.
But Jesus said: ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil-doers!” (Matthew 7:21-23.)
So how is TT wrong?
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Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue. It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand. Let every one that names the name of Christ, depart from all sin. There are others, whose religion rests in bare hearing, and it goes no further; their heads are filled with empty notions. These two sorts of hearers are represented as two builders. This parable teaches us to hear and do the sayings of the Lord Jesus: some may seem hard to flesh and blood, but they must be done. Christ is laid for a foundation, and every thing besides Christ is sand. Some build their hopes upon worldly prosperity; others upon an outward profession of religion. Upon these they venture; but they are all sand, too weak to bear such a fabric as our hopes of heaven. There is a storm coming that will try every man’s work. When God takes away the soul, where is the hope of the hypocrite? The house fell in the storm, when the builder had most need of it, and expected it would be a shelter to him. It fell when it was too late to build another. May the Lord make us wise builders for eternity. Then nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ Jesus. The multitudes were astonished at the wisdom and power of Christ’s doctrine. And this sermon, ever so often read over, is always new. Every word proves its Author to be Divine. Let us be more and more decided and earnest, making some one or other of these blessednesses and Christian graces the main subject of our thoughts, even for weeks together. Let us not rest in general and confused desires after them, whereby we grasp at all, but catch nothing. Matthew Henry
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Tim Timmons writes in post #108
The so called “we” isn’t there. Some Jews did accept Jesus, and that still is true today. Being Jewish and following the law as set down in the Old Testament and then believing in Christ after HE was born, preached, died on the Cross, rose from the dead recorded in the Gospels and spoken of throught the New Testaments is the journey which the Bible takes through the Old and New Testament.
When referring to Islam, the Qur’an and Muslims, they are a pagan religion, absolutely nothing to do with the Word of God or the LORD Jesus Christ.
You cannot be a Christian Believer in Jesus Christ and be a Muslim at the same time. Many Muslims have become Born Again Believers BUT, they do not embrace Islam after their conversion.
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