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Whirled Views 01.29
Good morning.
On this day in 1845: Edgar Allan Poe’s poem “The Raven” was first published, in the New York Evening Mirror.
Welcome to our daily (except Sundays) open thread, where you, the commenters, choose the topics of conversation.
Topic: Watercooler Chatter, WorldMagBlog
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back to top428 Comments to “Whirled Views 01.29”
Semolina Pilchard
Climbing up the Eiffel tower
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna
Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe
I am the eggman
They are the eggmen
I am the Walrus
Goo goo g’ joob
(Lennon/McCartney, 1967)
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Good morning to all my cyber friends at WORLDmag. Life has been a bit scary the past few days and it occured to me that in spite of all we are going through “it is well with my soul”
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Travis- you are back!
I was just thinking yesterday that I have really missed your lyrics.
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Any discussion of “The Raven” by Poe should include “The End of the Raven” by Poe’s cat.
http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/hdogcat5.html
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TRAVIS!!!!!! As she runs, leaps and hugs him…So glad you are back.
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Did they finally discover who leaves the bottle of cognac on Poe’s grave?
I wonder how many folks know that Poe’s Baltimore citizenship is why that city’s team is now called the Ravens!??
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#5 Schwing! My you smell yummy today. Must be that Eau d’Florabama perfume you southern gals always wear…
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I had to memorize the raven and recite it when I was in grade school.
Quothe the Raven: “Nevermore”
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The Poe Toaster (from wbal.com):
“Rafael Alvarez, President of the Baltimore Poe Society tells WBAL Radio he has a theory about why the mystery admirer did not show up this year. He thinks that person died last week.
Alvarez says e-mails have been circulating for the past several hours pointing to the late David Franks of Baltimore as the Poe toaster. Franks was found dead in his Baltimore apartment last week. He has been a writer, performer and poet in Baltimore for years.
‘It fit David’s love of the prank and the practical joke. And particularly stunts that involve sort of high literary high-wire acts,’ says Alvarez.
He says that Franks also wore the same clothes daily like that of the Poe toaster and he fit the physical description. ‘David had quite the late 19th century English dandy flair for scarves, gloves, and various caps. It would not be unusual for David to don a cape if the situation called for it,’ says Alvarez.
A friend of Franks tells WBAL Radio that she too would not be surprised if he was the Poe toaster because he fit the physical description.”
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On this day in Church History:
January 29, 1499: Katherine von Bora, a German nun who married Martin Luther in 1525, is born. At their wedding, she was 26 and he was 41.
January 29, 1523: Before an audience of more than 600 people gathered at the first Zurich Disputation, Swiss reformer Ulrich Zwingli successfully defends his 67 theses. He appealed only to Scripture and rejected the authority of the pope, the sacrifice of the Mass, the invocation of saints, times and seasons of fasting, and clerical celibacy. But the city council nevertheless declared “that Master Ulrich Zwingli (may) continue to preach the Holy Gospel and the true divine Scripture as he has done until now for as long a time and to such an extent until he be instructed differently”
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Don’t know much about Poe. I not a poetry person. I did make $67 at my freelance job this week. wow. They promise it will get better once I get the hand of it.
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Who believes that Obama is serious this time about creating more jobs?
I don’t.
He suddenly has a change of direction after months of massive payoffs to campaign contributors, shutting the GOP out of debates on Health Care and repeated attempts to ram Health Care “Reform” down our throats, Looming Cap and Trade economic meltdown….and ignoring job creation- (except for some piddly efforts at creating public sector jobs….).
And now after months of ignoring the jobless, he wants us to believe that he suddenly has a heart for the millions of jobless people?
I don’t believe him. In fact, I think he’s as big a liar as ever has been in the White House.
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Jiller, thanks for your post at #2. I needed to read a post like that.
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Hey folks! Just thought I’d check in and say hello. Been a bit busy lately getting back to my serious writing. I’ll be checking in from time to time, but not as much as I used to. I’ve been missing you all and needed a fix.
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Kbells,
Poe is just as well known for his short stories. He was like the precusor to the Twilight Zone…
The Tell-Tale Heart is a great short read.
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Yes, Jiller. Keep us focused on the real reason we live.
And Monty- Your link proved to provide a chuckle.
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A little gem from Spurgeon:
“I wish, brothers and sisters, that we could all imitate “the pearl oyster”—A hurtful particle intrudes itself into its shell, and this vexes and grieves it. It cannot reject the evil, but what does it do but “cover” it with a precious substance extracted out of its own life, by which it turns the intruder into a pearl! Oh, that we could do so with the provocations we receive from our fellow Christians, so that pearls of patience, gentleness, and forgiveness might be bred within us by that which otherwise would have harmed us.”
~ Charles Spurgeon
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Thorn, oh yeah, I did like his short stories. The original Rod Serling
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KLasko, thanks for the drive by.
Now, back to Cheryl and marriage: after reading one of her last posts from yesterday wherein she says she is so analytical, I was struck by the memory that whenever I found myself in a situation of contemplating marriage, I was “so in love” that I’d cut the guy big breaks, believing “no, he’d never do that.” I think after the romance dies down a bit and we’re left with reality, things change, and I suspect that marriage is like that. You don’t really know someone until …. So, after all my years on the planet, I’ve concluded that Maya Angelou is right and it applies to everyone: when people tell you who they are, believe them.
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Jersey – been thinking a lot about you in particular lately. Finding myself wondering, “Now what would Jersey say about That?”
Been thinking the same thing about Mim, Drill and Victoria.
Kim – just wondering how you’ve been doing.
Wondering too if Mumsee is still having problems with vermin.
Donna and Cheryl, how are the pups?
Chas, How’s Elvira?
Michelle – any news on your memoir yet?
Everyone else – I’ve missed you all!
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Travis, did Lennon/McCartney make money for that?
MIM, I suspect Obama really wants to keep the turmoil going. Alinsky’s Rule #8, Keep the pressure on. Never let up.
It worked for Roosevelt, people thought he was doing something. It may not work today.
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Klasko, it’s good to see you. If you don’t mind my asking, what are you writing?
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I KLasko! I thought my post would be #14, and it turned out to be #21.
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The Tell-Tale Heart is a great short read.
So is The Murders in the Rue Morgue. You can see his influence on A. Conan Doyle’s development of the Sherlock Holmes character.
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Sawgunner,
I didn’t know that about the Ravens, but it makes sense.
Not to change the subject of Klasko and Travis’ return, but Wii has changed our lives
My mother got the whole family a Wii for Christmas and it has ruined TV time. As soon as hubby gets home the kids want a family bowling, tennis or boxing tournament. The boys find it insufferable to be beaten at boxing by their mother. Wii is a great winter-gets-dark-early distraction.
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Throw in The Cask of the Amandillado.
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The one where the guy is bricked up in the wall? Yes! One of my favorites. Don’t want to know who the Poe mystery guy was, nor do I want to know if the Mona Lisa is really daVinci. Some mysteries are not meant to be solved.
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I knew I was an atheist by the time I was ten. My wife came to a similar conclusion by the time she was fifteen.
I think most people at worldmagblog have given up trying to convert me, and have given up warning me about my soul. Even though I was an atheist most of my life, I shrank back from being a nihilist. I recoiled from facing the final logical point: there is no meaning or purpose to our existence.
This is the final “triumph” of World Magazine and worldmagblog: you convinced me that religious belief is nonsense and about the randomness and purposelessness of our existence.
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Hopesprings – I’m writing a novel. Three of them actually. The first one is about the life of the prophet Jeremiah. The second one, and the one nearest and dearest to my heart is about the life of Daniel, and the third is about the life of Ezekiel. It all began as a book about Daniel and then I discovered that I really needed to expand to include Daniel’s contempooraries and get a complete historical perspective on the exile of Judah. Lots of research and writing.
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The Fall of the House of Usher and the Black Cat are also good.
My 8th grade teacher read the Tell-Tale Heart in class though to us, and dramatized the heart beating, so that’s why its my favorite.
I had to memorize Annabel Lee though, instead of The Raven.
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Klasko!!! So glad you are stopping in. Chas, you are more of the man I would hover over making sure your coffee was just as you liked, filling your cup back up, and basically waiting on (I did this for my uncle over Christmas). I would eventually get on your last nerve and you would beg Elvera to find something else for me to do.
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My email for communicating here (and at my blog) is eman_modnar@yahoo.com. It works. I wade through the spam and read messages addressed to me and respond in a reasonably coherent and polite way.
In real (non-virtual) life I know quite a few Christians. Many are fairly conservative politically, but most of them do not seem to suffer from the hysteria about homosexuality and the fantasy of Creationism.
In talking to them, I tend to be polite and careful in what I say, and I avoid challenging their religious faith. I suspect many, if not most, are really secret nihilists, and desperately hope that they are wrong in this regard.
So once again I will ask people to email me. The usual disclaimers and promises apply. I will not disclose your screen name without your permission. I will summarize and quote without individual attribution.
Here is the question: How many of you who present yourself as a believing Christian at worldmag blog are really secret nihilists?.
You can answer publicly here. You can tell me you REALLY, REALLY believe. It may be true—no one really knows what is in another person’s heart. But I encourage those who believe something different than the public persona you present to “confess” to me if you want.
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Actually Serling was a combination of Poe and O’Henry. Since my background is in TV I sort of take some screen writers as serious literature.
Hey, Klasko.
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#6 SAWGUNNER
I read that the mysterious guest at the Poe grave was a no show; some speculation that last year was the 200th anniversary of his birth and that might have been a natural ending point.
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OK So I grew up with a book of poetry that was 101 Famous Poems 1918 edition. I can no longer do it but for much of my life I have been able to quote from memory, The Raven, Annabel Lee, and most of the Purloined Letter. I think Poe himself was a fascinating character.
The poem I hate the most though is “I think that I shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree…” You miss the whole effect because even as I typed the words I snarled my lips up.
My great grandmother loved poetry so she always quoted it to me. I never actually read the words to the Owl and the Pussycat until I was in about 6th grade, but I had known it all my life.
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While I am at it, I will once again ask the question I have not seen an answer to:
How can conservative Christians, a group which has such difficulty in showing respect to others, expect to have respect shown to them?
So those are two questions: one private and one public. As I just turned 66, and might drop dead at any time, please don’t take too long to answer either or both questions.
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kbells, there is a lady in my Wednesday night Bible study who can show you how to take that $67 to Publix and buy a whole lot. I ended up getting a pound and a half of coffee for $.99 (anyone notice there is no cents button on our computers?) The other day I got about $50 worth of groceries for $12.45. Now it has become a game for me and I am having so much fun with it.
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Hey Kim, I’m not scoffing at the $67 dollars, that’s about 11 trips to Burger King and about 22 hours of not having to nag and beg someone to eat or a year’s supply of beans and rice at Sam’s.
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Welcome back, Travis, are you here to keep us informed on lyrics again?
Hi Klasko, what vermin?
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Is ignoring someone considered a lack of respect? Or is it just being polite so you don’t say something even worse than silence?
Or is it just sheer boredom from the same ole, same ole?
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MIM, some parenting books recommend ignoring bad behavior if it is clearly an attention getting device.
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Are you ignoring me again this morning, MIM? I don’t have any rats to throw today.
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As Mumsee can probably confirm, the technique of “planned ignoring” is something they actually teach you at foster-parent training sessions. If you google planned ignoring you get lots of hits explaining what it is.
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Make It Man poses an interesting question: Is ignoring someone considered a lack of respect? Or is it just being polite so you don’t say something even worse than silence?
For a couple of weeks now, I have been routinely preached at by a fellow poster whose theology differs from my own. I’ve explained politely that we are unlikely to persuade each other of our perceived errors, then ignored future persistent posts in my direction simply because further discussion would be fruitless and because one of us being offensive was enough.
He claims that God told him to do this. I prayed that God would tell him to shut up. In His infinite wisdom, He may have. We’ll see.
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What is NOT widely know about Poe is that he wrote a fair amount of very good humorous stories, as well as his dark stuff which everyone knows about.
Specifically, off the top of my head, I remember ‘The Imp of the Perverse’ and ‘The Gold Bug’. Very funny stories.
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Thomas1,
I noticed a long while back, in my Christian walk, that believers tend to focus on a few aspects of God. It is my view that we benefit through discussion with others who share a love of God but have a different perspective, when done in a calm and loving manner. Your discussion with Roy was like seeing two folk on opposite ends of the same belief trying to get their perspective across. I appreciated it. Sorry to see it end. But can understand the frustration on both parts.
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Thomas, that reminds of a quote from the movie Ladyhawk;
I have waited almost two years for a sign from God. So when I heard the morning bells of Aquila, I knew the moment of my destiny had come. You will be my guiding angel.
Sir, the truth is I talk to God all the time, and no offense, but He never mentioned you.
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Random Name wants to know how conservative Christians can expect respect.
Hmm. The ability to make fun of oneself is universally regarded as a likeable trait, and I definitely respect people more when they do it. Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Justin Timberlake – all have publicly mocked their own carefully crafted image to great effect. Note that my CEO has left company-wide voicemails of himself singing the theme song from “The Nanny”.
They could start by laughing at themselves, and this is particularly hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZUB0kLLBUA&feature=player_embedded
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Mumsee, I’m afraid I didn’t do a very good job of conveying my viewpoint, but then, my audience was not at all receptive.
Kbells – excellent quote!
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Joe B. (#10), I see even our friend Martin Luther had a wife half his age. Guess it’s not particularly a “new” trend.
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Luke 16:27-31 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
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I also think of Vincent Price when I think of some of those Poe writings. Those suited the black and white film era.
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50. Katherine von Bora is a hero of mine. I think it was her influence that helped to elevate married life and the ideal of the wife as a spiritual partner in the Protestant movement Church. Before in the Catholic Church marriage was considered a lesser calling to the Holy Orders.
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2 Timothy 4:2-4
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
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Hopesprings (the Spurgen quote) — thank you. Spurgeon almost always speaks right to me, it’s uncanny.
Klasko, that’s quite an ambitious writing schedule you have going. Good for you.
My dogs are good. Tess would like to give Travis & Chas a swipe across the face, but as I recall they don’t like dog kisses much so I’m holding her back with all I’ve got.
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#31, Think I’ll run off with Kim. Nobody ever paid me that kind of attention. Every time Elvera hovers to refill my cup means that she wants to get rid of the rest of it.
As for Kim’s #37, I’ve said before, it’s a sport with Elvera. A couple of days ago, she said, “This (crab) soup was $2.45 a can. They had a ‘buy one, get one’, so that made it $1.23, and I had a dollar coupon, so that made it 73 cents for this can of soup.” She does that all the time.
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Might be interesting sometime to have everyone explain what they understand the gospel to be. ?
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So that’s who wrote The Cask of Amontillado! I had to read it in 9th grade, but could never remember who wrote it. I kept associating it with Sherlock Holmes, because we also had to read one of those stories about the same time, but when I thought about it I knew Holmes wasn’t in the story, since it ended with the guy walled in there. But I didn’t remember it being by Poe.
I hated the story, it gave me the creeps for weeks, every time I thought about it. The Tell-Tale Heart didn’t both me at all, it seemed like someone trying to tell a scary story and not succeeding.
In college I saw a movie based on The Pit and the Pendulum and The Fall of the House of Usher, and that just about gave me nightmares (once I finally got to sleep, which I didn’t want to do because I was sure I would have nightmares). That one took me more like months to get over. But when I eventually read the stories, I was amazed to find that they weren’t all that scary.
In grad school I had to read a book of stories by Horacio Quiroga, who greatly admired Poe and tried to emulate him. Quiroga’s stories were like The Cask of Amontillado – you knew this terrible thing was coming and you couldn’t stop it. Not as clean as being walled up, though – in one story, some mentally retarded boys were fascinated by watching the cook kill a chicken. Then they saw their little sister and had an idea…
I’m not sure which one was worse – that one, or the one where a guy was walking through the jungle, knowing how careful he had to be because of the ants – their bite would paralyze you first, then they would start eating. Of course, he trips and can’t get up in time, and here come the ants…
I have never understood how anyone could enjoy watching horror movies.
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Titus 1:8-10
Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
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It would actually be very interesting to take a sort of poll of the readers on this blog as to their particular level of anxiety or eagerness to gain the ‘respect’ of the posters known as Random Name and Thomas1.
I suspect I know the answer.
Poor, poor dears.
So, here is the poll: for any interested,
Regards gaining Random Name’s and Thomas1’s ‘respect’, are you
1)Extremely eager to gain their ‘respect’
2)Somewhat eager eager to gain their ‘respect’
3)Neither eager nor not eager to gain their ‘respect’
4)Somewhat eager not to gain their ‘respect’
5)Extremely eager not to gain their ‘respect’
6) Don’t even care about such stupidity enough to take this stupid poll
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3)
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Isn’t 3 and 6 kind of the same thing?
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Donna, I get enough swipes from my son’s spoiled dog.
We’re expecting snow to start this afternoon. Not good. I need to go to Lions. Then tomorrow, I have to attend a funeral for a fellow Lion, and another funeral Sunday for a SS clasmate.
Off to Lions now. Y’all behave, and someone answer Random’s question. I reject his basic premise, so, not me.
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I have to go too. The kid is out of school and we’re going to the Children’s science museum.
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One of the creepiest Edgar Allan Poe short stories (to me, anyway) is the “The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar”.
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Ephesians 6:11-13 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
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Kbells: Well, sort of different. If someone does not respond, I will mark them down as a #6.
That means that so far I have ONE #3 (you) and 8,345,124,014 #6’s (everyone else on the planet).
Do you think I have enough of a sample size now to use the results of the poll to produce a meaningful analysis?
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Drill, I suspect that neither you nor I will ever respect each other. Were that situation to change, I picture a 2012-style shift in the Earth’s polarity.
And for the record, Random’s question related to conservative Christians. Of your conservatism there can be no doubt. Your Christianity is not so much in evidence these days.
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Okay, the results of the poll are in:
We have one #3 (Neither eager nor not eager to gain Random Name and Thomas1’s respect).
We have 8,345,124,014 #6’s (Don’t even care about such stupidity enough to take this stupid poll)
We have two #1’s (Extremely eager to gain Random Name and Thomas1’s respect)
I will do some regression and digression analysis on these numbers, upload them through a satellite link, run them through a state-of-the-art computer cluster, parse, massage, and otherwise spindle and dilate the numbers, cross-reference them to past polling on similar subjects, and get back to everyone.
You can NEVER tell what these sorts of polls will reveal about public perceptions on important topics like this.
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drill 01.29.10 AT 11:06 AM
Okay, the results of the poll are in:
–
what poll question?
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So Thomas, what is the gospel?
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Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS
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Pastor Roy: Re my #60. Today, Random Name and Thomas1 are puzzling their noggins over what we (Christians) would have to do in order to make them respect us (Christians).
As their noggins are somewhat easily puzzled, I wanted to help them out by performing a sort of poll on how much anyone here really cares. That sort of information might be useful to them, although they are really big on using information, come to think of it.
The poll is now closed (sorry if you did not vote – I gave you and the rest of the people on the planet over two minutes to vote) and the results are being processed as we speak.
Seriously:
It is good to see you here. How are you doing?
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do people who call themselves christian and reject God’s Word as being true and promote sin fall under Matthew 7:21-23. If so should we not try to reach such a person for Christ? or Should we let that person fall victim to sin? What type of Christian or my case Pastor/Minister?
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Random 36, at Chas’ request:
A lot of people do not show me respect ( I deal with public school children from a different perspective, for example) but I am required by God to show them respect as they are image bearers. So, if some Christians you have run across are not showing others respect, I would have to say that their fellow believers are required to show them respect as image bearers and if they do not, they are sinning just as the Christians you have run across would be. Nonbelievers are not required by anything, other than outdated Judeo/Christian ethics, to show anybody respect.
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Kim: $.99 (anyone notice there is no cents button on our computers?)
That’s because computer keyboards are based on the old typewriters, where you could type the ‘c’, then backspace and type the ‘/’ over it. Now, you can get ‘¢’ by holding the ‘ALT’ key, and typing 155 on the keypad to the right of the keyboard (on a PC- I think you get the same thing by holding the apple key on a Mac). Thus, your can of coffee was 99¢.
Pauline: Quiroga is one of my favorite Latin American writers. I think it is because of all the 19th & 20th Century writers, I can understand the simple, yet morbid, language. And he gets into your mind! I also like Borges for that reason. I love the ant story. Another is the one about the man cutting his sugar cane, then accidentally falling on his machete. The rest of the story is him thinking about his family while dying. Gruesome, yet spell binding!
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drill 01.29.10 AT 11:16 AM
Pastor Roy: Re my #60. Today, Random Name and Thomas1 are puzzling their noggins over what we (Christians) would have to do in order to make them respect us (Christians).
-
1. Repent of their sins
2. Come to Christ
3. Permitt God to change their world views and feeling toward His people
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Random Name says,
That’s good, Random–I actually think that’s progress. I don’t have any thought or concern about whether or not you respect me, but I certainly have more respect for the relative consistency of your new position than I did for your prior thoroughly incoherent one. Of course none of us will convert you–only God do that. And although I can’t say whether or not that will happen with you, I can certainly see you being closer to a point where it might than you were when you still held your old position.
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Showing respect is not the same as agreeing with their views. To many times in todays world, I have seen from those who views are on the left. They Want people to show them respect and agree with their views. While at the same time they do not show other respect.
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Random I skip. Thomas1, though, I read, because he presents his argument in a way that makes me think before realizing he is wrong and going on to the next post.
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¢¢
There. I put in my two cents. (Thanks, Peter L)
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Yesterday, I had mentioned that rumors were circulating that Obama would kill the manned US space program, leaving the United States the only option of using Russian launch systems (including military missions) for manned missions once the Shuttle is retired. There is no manned capability in the pipeline for this country.
This is confirmed, for instance see
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/27/obama-budget-drop-nasa-constellation-program/
This represents the termination of the United States manned space flight capability which goes back to the Mercury and Gemini programs in the 1960’s.
Meanwhile India and China are both planning and implementing aggressive manned space flight programs.
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Thomas, You know I adore you but your snarkiness is showing. BTW is yourbeloved of the male or female variety or is that a secret that you keep?
As far as Random, You all have to realize that I am southern and by the very fact of all our in breeding we ALL have crazy relatives. Because so many of us were raised with the teachings of the “W” (That was Mississippi College for Women, where you learned such things as velvet was only to be worn from Thanksgiving through Valentines Day and no further and that a true lady did not walk and smoke at the same time. She must be seated to smoke and other usefule life information) we are taught how to deal with the crazies in our family. You just smile politely and sometimes laugh: “My, my, my, than Uncle Random is such a character. You know that crazy part of him comes from his daddy’s side. I still can’t believe his Mama married into such a family, why bless her heart. That’s what happens….”
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Random, well, I’m not sure how to answer #36.
I’m not sure I entirely agree with your premise either, but I would say that if I or others fail to show respect to others as people made in God’s image, it is because we are still plagued by sin. I am typically fast convicted of my error, however, and will seek to mend that aspect of my personality, if I belong to Christ.
Maybe I’ve missed a thread here or there, but I’m not sure I’ve seen what you’re referring to ? At least not frequently.
Sorry you’ve found us so wanting. Then again, sometimes people only see what they want to see. Y’know?
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Peter L,
Borges is my favorite. I love the way he wrote.
The rest of the Latin American writers, I read because I had to for school. Though I did enjoy La tía Julia y el escribidor.
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drill – as for Christian gaining their respect. It will not happen. God’s Word is clear. They are going to hate us because they hated Christ.
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Klasko #29: What a challenge! Have you written any earlier novels? How long have you been writing?
Donna #55: Spurgeon does have a way of getting right to the heart, doesn’t he?
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Uh, oh! Mumsee mentioned my name without accusing me of something. All that cold, fresh air getting to you? Or is it the passel of young children and the mice-capades?
De nada, Mumsee.
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For Donna J: This is the Gospel as I understand it:
http://www.dioceseny.org/pages/372-let-the-reader-understand
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Note – we’re seeing here that God answered my prayer which I referenced in comment 44.
Apparently, He said “No.”.
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Thomas (89): Wow. I’ll have to set aside some time to read through that.
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Re Poe, I knew a Lenore (now deceased) named for the Raven poem. I think his poem “The Bells” is his best poem, followed closely by “The Raven.” But if you haven’t read “The Bells,” look it up.
Hi, KLasko! Misten is doing great. I have a new housemate (like her a lot), a “new” car after my old one got totalled by a drunk driver in November, and a new grandniece (my second, making 20 nieces and nephews total so far). Nothing new published for me recently, but I’m still editing.
It’s snowing here and quite pretty, but supposed to turn to ice (1/4 to 1/2 inch, according to weather.com last night), followed by 2 to 4 inches of additional snow and an overnight low of 11. So, whoever sent Nashville their weather forecast by mistake, could you ‘fess up so we can send it back?
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Just don’t ever say the cup of coffee was .99¢ (using both the cent and the decimal point). That’s one of my pet peeves. Whenever I see it in an add, I want to buy the product, just so I can argue that the ad said it was a penny and I’m being charged a dollar.
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Donna J: If you just look at the left hand column, it’s less cluttered. The right hand column contains scriptural references as well as references to church documents (some of these may be unfamiliar to you).
But it’s a good guide to the Episcopal study and interpretation of Holy Scripture.
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1 Cor. 15:1-5:
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter and then to the twelve. …
The Apostles Creed?
Cheryl, be careful in that ice, nasty stuff. But the snow sounds beautiful. I was struck by all our snow-covered mountains on my drive to work yesterday, they were just awash in white, towering in the distance over all the port cranes and ships.
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I have appreciated using the Book of Common Prayer in my own devotions from time to time.
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Cheryl – Just don’t ever say the cup of coffee was .99¢
That reminds me of one of mine, which stems from the fact that the past tense of “read” is “read.” What I see often is people using “lead” as a past tense, when it should be “led.” Also, as a lawyer, I see “plead” used as a past tense, when it should be either “pled” or “pleaded.”
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Donna J: It has some very great, simple prayers in it. Our hymnal is beautiful also.
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The earlier versions, however.
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Also, when someone says, “I could care less,” my initial reaction is to want to ask, “Then why don’t you?”
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drill the problem with Christian want to gain the respect of non-Christian, is to many time the Christian must surrender parts of their faith or God’s Word in order to gain that respect. We see this in the case of Episcopal Church today and other groups who are willing to surrender God’s Word to meet the needs of people in sexual sin.
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Groups that are willing to surrender God’s Word to meet the needs of people in sexual sin.
if they do not repent I believe will find thems in the versus
found here
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS ”
They end up here because they are rejecting God’s Word.
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Revelation 3:14-20
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
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Thomas1:
In post 89 you give a link to a page that describes your church’s hermeneutical approach. That is not an answer to the question, “What is the Gospel, as you understand it?”
My answer, off the cuff, would be, “God Himself provided redemption for sin through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross, and through trusting in that sacrifice, we can be restored to our divine purpose and know eternal fellowship with Him, and inherit the promise of a resurrection to eternal life.”
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Ken, yes, that’s pretty much items 1 – 4 of the Diocesan link I provided.
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Ken PS – But I like your answer and concur with it.
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Ken’s right, I was looking more for the basics, the essence of what the gospel is: Christ was crucified, dead and buried, rose again on the 3rd day as an atonement for sin ……
We can all go deeper from there, obviously, but I’m convinced that a basic misunderstanding of the essential gospel as stated so clearly in Scripture is at the root of what causes such deep division among some of those who claim the name “Christian.”
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Ken – The problem I see if you do not believe in God’s Word to be true, or you believe it has error and can not be taken as face value. Then how can you believe in any part of God’s Word. What proceed do you use to determine what is God’s Word and should be applied to one life and what is not of God’s Word an you do not have to listen to.
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The Apostle’s Creed is a good summary.
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Thomas,
Point 11 of the Principles of Interpretation is what you and Roy have been doing.
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Thomas 109, amen. I’m sorry to see so many evangelical churches dismissing the creeds and confessions of the historical church.
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Mumsee – not precisely. We more seemed to be talking past each other, particularly on the issue of Biblical literalism.
Donna @ 111 – why do you suppose that is?
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Ken – people who the way I descibe in 108 come in direct conflict with
2 Timothy 3:15-17
and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
an this was what I was trying to get accross to thomas
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Ken – people who view that way I descibe in 108 come in direct conflict with
2 Timothy 3:15-17
and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
an this was what I was trying to get accross to thomas
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Kim,
It’s probably not my place, but Thomas has said before that he is married to a woman and that he is not gay.
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TRS – you are correct, and Kim – sorry, I missed your comment in my scroll-a-thon.
Not sure where I was snarky, but as you can see, I’ve been tested.
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donna j we do not dismissing the creeds and confessions of the historical church.
what we dismiss it the actions of the leadership to promote a sinful behavior that is in direct conflict with God’s Word. This why many Episcopal Church have left. They are leaving over their leadership promoting and supoorting sin.
This is also why the Christian Communtiy has reject the leadership and many of the Episcopal Church.
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Pastor Roy,
I think that in many ways (maybe even most) we two agree on the Gospel far, far more than I agree with Thomas.
However, when you start adding things one has to believe to be saved: correct doctrine, for example, I don’t agree.
Yes, I think the saved should show growth through the Holy Spirit. And, yes, I do occasionally wonder how much growth Thomas shows.
But, if we start placing all sorts of doctrinal requirements on someone to be saved, I think we’re going back to being saved by works (by ourselves) rather than by being saved by the Holy Spirit.
I think that the Bible is quite clear that we are not saved by works (although we should start showing our salvation by growing in good works).
The thief on the cross was saved without any theology at all. For all we know, he believed in pink bunnies. He simply asked Christ to take him to His kingdom, and Christ saved him.
Very simple. Too simple for many of us.
I think we’re going to find a lot of people in Heaven that we weren’t expecting.
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TRS I agree with what you are saying. The problem is when you have a Church opennly promoting of sin. An their people, are taking that idea, an are presenting as being correct an that God’s Word is wrong. An saying we have the right to reject certain passage.
What should Christian do?
Does these Churches fall under
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS ”
Revelation 3:14-20
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
are they in conflict with God’s Word as seen here ?
2 Timothy 3:15-17
and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
How should we handle such people? Do we confront them? Do we leave them alone so they can promote sin and lead more people astray?
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Thomas, no big deal, just something I missed about you. I am the Queen of Snarkiness so I can recognize it in others. Many times I am snarky and didn’t mean to be and have to go back and apologize.
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TRS – you may wonder how much growth through the Holy Spirit I’ve shown, and I can wonder the same of you, but at the end of the day we’re only responsible for our own thoughts and actions.
You must admit I’ve been remarkably patient with the harrassment I’ve encountered in this thread alone. Perhaps that is the growth that you’re referring to, as there was a time when I would not have been.
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Scott Roeder = Guilty after only 37 min of deliberation. Prosecutors are seeking a requirement that he be in jail for at least 5o years before being eligible for parole. Hope they get it. That’s some good justice.
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TRS makes a good point — my “doctrine” was pretty off the mark for a long time.
But Pastor Roy has a point as well with regard to churches that teach error. It’s been interesting to watch as these issues (which really is just one issue, the authority of Scripture) play out in so many of the mainline denominations.
As for why many evangelical churches (I’m thinking mostly of the independent varieties that almost pride themselves in breaking away from the historical churches) don’t make use of the old confessions or creeds, I’m not sure.
It’s popular to say “no creed but Christ” or “no creed but the Bible” — but you still must have a creed and confession. Either it’s a sound one (which the old ones are) or it’s one based on your own random, hit-or-miss ramblings.
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Kim – I’ll be more mindful of my snark. I think John Knowles wrote that “sarcasm is the weapon of the weak”. I don’t always agree with that statement, in fact, when I’m being sarcastic I always disagree with it.
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Random,
Being raised by an atheist I knew I was a believer in God around eight years-old. Though I didn’t meet Jesus until I was 14. I am not a nihilist.
As to respect, I know plenty of conservative Christians who are respectful. I know some who are not. I have gay friends who are respectful. I have some who are not. I know liberal unbelievers who are respectful. I know some who are not. I think it is disrespectful to stereotype a whole class of people based on personal presuppositions. I also know gay conservatives and liberal believers and agnostic moderates. You gotta love the speices, eh?
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donna j I love the creeds, I love the old hymns. When my wife an I did the bulletin for the Church. We would put in the Creeds and old hymns.
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Has anyone read the “Didache’”?
An early church document that, as an addition to, but not a replacement for the Bible, adresses and defines the teachings of the apostles.
I strongly suggest all believers do so.
AntiChrists should also.
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Buzzy @100: Also, when someone says, “I could care less,” my initial reaction is to want to ask, “Then why don’t you?”
Just what I think.
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5)Extremely eager not to gain their ‘respect’
Judge always said to wear stuff like this as a badge of honor.
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Thomas1,
I don’t think you are necessarily talking past each other, as not quite listening. He is doing what a good Pentecostal/Baptist sort would do: expressing concern for your eternal state. You are doing what a good Episcopalian would do: telling him to live and let live. But the site you cited suggests in point 11 that discussion and arguing are how we come to understanding the full meaning of Scripture. If both are saved through the work of Christ, there is nothing to be lost by trying to come to a better understanding of what the other is trying to say. And perhaps much to be gained. Just by entering into this discussion and pointing out that site, several onlookers and partial participants have peeked over. We are interested. And we are concerned for one another as family ought to be, in the family of Christ. You take a view that is not so commonly held and have taken some comments that were less than encouraging. Roy holds his beliefs strongly and desires to fill his position as an encourager and evangelist. He has also been called to task, though not so often, on this discussion. And I, for one, have indeed noticed the patience you have gained since joining us. May God continue to work in us all.
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Mynock: I believe that abortion is murder.
I believe that Roeder did not have the right to murder an abortinist.
The sentence is appropriate.
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NJLawyer,
The other day, while reading the local paper, I read about a Magistrate Judge.
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Roger Patno,
Amen.
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#119
Actually, there are some good questions there.
I think that we are held accountable for what we know.
So, perhaps, if a person KNOWS that something is wrong, and yet CHOOSES to believe it anyway (rather like judging God) or do it anyway (being directly disobedient) with rebellion in their hearts, and yet goes around saying “I’m a Christian, and this is what you should believe” (i.e. teaching heresy knowing it is heresy and thus leading others astray), then these verses would certainly apply.
But, if the person is a “baby Christian” or a sincerely confused Christian who is emphasizing parts of Scripture (love your neighbor) over other parts, but is truly is TRYING to honor God, then these verses wouldn’t apply.
I think God does look at our motivations. Are we hypocrites who are rebelling in our hearts? Or are we trying to honor Him in our hearts (even if we’re doing so wrongly)?
In Thomas’s case (forgive me, Thomas, but you and Pastor Roy have been battling this out, so your name comes easily to mind as an example), we can’t really know his heart.
However, when he’s not being snarky (which he definitely is at times), you might hear some of his heart:
He’s concerned about “loving one’s neighbor.” He worries about the poor, the downtrodden, and the mistreated. He emphasizes showing God’s love (at least to others who aren’t Conservative Christians). He cares about gays, because he sees them as being the “lepers” of our time. He worries about fairness. He wants to avoid criminalization of abortion because he cares for the women who have erred, or whose lives may be ruined (I have the worst time understanding this one, because the babies are paramount in my mind, but I try to see where he’s coming from.)
I could go on. But, I guess the point is that he holds some of what he believes because of a sincere desire to fulfill the parts of the Gospel that tell us to love our neighbor.
Now, does he go too far? Probably, in my opinion. Because, in his zeal to be love like Christ loved, he forgets that Christ still told people to repent and still expected them to follow God’s ways. And, in his zeal to help the poor, he seems to forget that at least some poor do fall under the admonition of Paul, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10
But, partly, I think, Thomas error is only the reverse of our own (those who fall on the very Conservative side of Christianity.) Sometimes, it seems as if very Conservative Christians emphasize doctrine over action. Punishment and consequences over being Christ’s hands and feet. Hell over the Good News. Condemnation over being “free in Christ.” We have a hard time seeing that God works over time in people, and that people don’t all start in the same place. We expect (it seems) immediate perfection: doctrinally and otherwise.
So, are we any less guilty? Thomas and SteveG. emphasize part of the Gospel to the detriment of the rest. But, aren’t some of us doing the same just from the opposite side?
Thankfully, it is to our own Master that we answer, and His mercies are great. (Romans 14:4)
I don’t know where the line is. Yes, we should call someone out on their improper understanding of Scripture. But, we have to be very, very careful not to judge the state of their salvation unless there is simply no question. (I try to be very careful, but I would have a hard time believing, for example, in the salvation of a Tiller, since his bloody, repetitive works condemn him in my mind. But, even then, I am very careful, because I am not his master.)
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Mumsee – that was a very cogent analysis and pleasantly delivered. You are an example to be followed.
Every good discussion has a beginning, middle and end. At the end all may not be resolved, but the parties can agree to disagree after exchanging ideas.
I’ve reached the end of my discussions with Pastor Roy. He has not. Were we in person, he would be being exceedingly rude at this point.
In a blog, it’s not too much of an effort to scroll past, but everyone else has to do it too if they are equally disinterested in Roy’s ubiquitous expressions of concern for my eternal state. I’ve asked that it stop many times; now it’s ultimately up to either him or the moderator to call it off or allow it to continue.
I, too, hold my beliefs strongly. And one of them is that the right to not engage in fruitless discussion is rather fundamental.
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I’m sorry. It seems that when I try to write something serious, I tend to write a really long treatise.
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Oh but Thomas, I would have to disagree, I think of sarcasm as a fine edged blade. Sometimes it can be to fine as to totally hit the mark and the other not even be aware a’ la Eddie Izzard.
Mumsee as usual you pinned it. I think personally I am somewhere left of Pastor Roy and right of Thomas. Thank you for your perceptiveness.
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My mother used to say, “Summarize your summary, dear!” LOL
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TRS – again, cogent analysis and pleasantly delivered, if not 100% accurate – very close.
The inability to know another’s heart or state of salvation should drive us to better understand our own and to attend to our own salvation.
If my neighbor is counseling me on a how to unclog my sink, and I look out my window and see that his own dishwasher is a volcano of soap, hot water and broken crockery erupting like Krakatoa in his own kitchen, do you know what I’d do?
Call a plumber.
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TRS I agree we must be very careful that is why I have back up my views with God’s Word and the question I have asked has been in relationship to God’s Word.
This is key for Chrisitan in dealing with false teaching. We must show the false teaching being wrong through God’s Word. An this has been shown how the present leadership of churches like Episcopal Church, which are promoting sin are in conflict with God’s Word.
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Now, if only the preborn could get a fair trial.
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Folks, my goal is to engage people for Christ, if it is causing a problem here then I will back off. What I did ,I did because of soul following the path of false teaching, that leads to destruction. this soul is not only following it but also is promoting. As Pastor it hurts me to see anyone falling for false teaching and being lead astray to destruciton.
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TRS, #134, great post.
BTW, I looked last night to see if you had an e-mail address linked with your name, because if you had, I would have e-mailed you. There was some stuff relevant to our discussions that I didn’t want to say on the blog, but which I was afraid my not saying left me looking like a know-it-all. If you wish to e-mail me (my dot editor at juno dot com), feel free.
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CCC, I think Tom Cruise is making a moving about putting the “preborn” on trial now. It’s called Minority Report 2: Fetal Attraction!
And no complaining that it’s not okay to joke about this. If you don’t want to be made fun of, your analogies should make sense!
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Quick question Roy, where exactly are you a Pastor?
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Pastor Roy,
A thought and a story:
When I was much younger, and had turned my life over to Christ again relatively recently, I believed similarly to Thomas. A pastor friend came to visit. And, he asked me a few very careful, very nice questions.
He asked, “What music do you listen to on the radio?” And, then mentioned how much he appreciated Christian music.
He asked, “What do you think about abortion?” And, after I replied that I wouldn’t do it personally, but that I wouldn’t condemn someone else for it, he said, “I wonder what God thinks about it?”
There were a few more. I don’t remember them all. But, he was so very polite about it, and so very NON-condemning. And, he made me think, long after he left.
Funny, the more I thought about it, the more I wondered. I decided to search for the Christian music station. I started listening.
I decided to pray about abortion, and — over the years — my views have completely switched. It is one of the things I believe most staunchly about.
Yet, it was all done over time, by the Holy Spirit, with just a seed planted by that pastor by asking a few questions. That’s all. No lectures. No pursuit. No follow-up even.
Another example. My MIL smoked. She smoked a lot. She got constant nagging from her family. My FIL made her go outside (from her own home!) The more people nagged her, the more firmly she planted her feet on this hill.
She later had a heart attack. It scared her to death. At that point, SHE decided to stop smoking, and she did. Cold turkey. What years of nagging couldn’t do, one scary incident did.
I guess the point is: You cannot nag or lecture someone into changing their mind. In fact, you often put them on the defensive by doing so, and cement them even MORE firmly on the wrong path.
But, a gentle question here or there. A life well-lived. A kind word. A personal testimony. These things can start a person thinking. And, while one plants the seed, another may water it, another may fertilize it, and someone altogether different might see it harvested.
Pushing to plant in hard soil and make the whole process happen right away may only serve to kill the plant.
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I do have one associated with my name, Cheryl. But, I forget to check it, because it is not my main address.
trs2and3@yahoo.com
I’ll go check it now, and reactivate it if it’s gone inactive.
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TRS,
“I guess the point is: You cannot nag or lecture someone into changing their mind. In fact, you often put them on the defensive by doing so, and cement them even MORE firmly on the wrong path.”
Hm, it’s such a shame you weren’t around to correct the apostles–and even Jesus Christ Himself. Things would have been so much better if they’d have heeded your “point.”
I mean, how absolutely gauche Christ and Peter and Paul were, eh? Of all idiotic things, Jesus had to go and get Himself killed when he could have just sat down with the Pharisees over a latte and had a sweet session of non-confrontational “sharing” of differing perspectives. It’s such a relief to know that we can follow your advice instead of the New Testament’s.
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TRS – it’s important to note that even though I lack Pastor Roy’s persistence, I feel very strongly that he’s wrong on almost every level. By being patient, providing data sources, and allowing him time to think, I hoped to persuade him.
That time has been spent posting comments with which I cannot engage. It’s not so much a case of hard soil, as it is the wrong seed.
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Mynock, It would make sense if your “precog” skills led you to understand that it’s a child in there!
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David L. – that was NOT a cogent analysis of TRS’ comment, and was NOT pleasantly delivered.
Christ and Peter and Paul are not presently blogging here. People who are human, fallible and prone to various sins are. It’s amazing to me how such people can elevate themselves to Christ’s status in their own mind, to the point where their own souls are in such a state of perfection that they assume Christ’s instructive imprimatur.
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I thought TRS was very careful and gracious in her delivery. I know there is a time for strong words and “wounds of a friend”, so to speak. But asking for and receiving God’s wisdom is always needed.
I have found that things don’t go very well when I try to play the Holy Spirit in someone else’s life. And, to me, that’s what TRS was trying to say.
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And, Pastor Roy, my above post was not directed at you.
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#36
Random,
A Christian should not expect respect.
“Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;” – 1 Peter 4:12
“If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.” – 1 Peter 4:14
Yet, a Christian is to be respectful of others.
“The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses {and escape} from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” – 2 Timothy 2:24-26
“Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;” – 1 Peter 4:15
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I love it when someome makes a really good point (#146) and then someone else comes along and, while thinking they are being very clever with their sarcasm, actually prove by demonstration how right the point is (#148).
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There seems to be a lot of hand wringing on today’s WV about whether or not Christians should be respected because we don’t give respect.
I was taught a long time ago that if you want respect you respect other people. So the people who are asking for respect need to understand that you don’t get respect just because you exist, you receive respect because you respect other people.
With as much slamming back and forth that goes on here (more violent in a non-fleshly violent sort of way than a hockey game) I would say, in my opinion, that the lack of respect you feel is because of the lack of respect you give.
If today and other day’s you don’t feel like people respect you or you don’t feel like other people have earned your respect then there is only one place you can look and that is (if you lean this way which I know one person on here doesn’t) look to the condition of your heart and ask yourself the hard questions and then secondly go have a look in the mirror and if you think the person in the mirror deserves respect then go out and respect others above yourself and then see if you receive respect back.
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Thomas1,
We are to be imitators of Christ. Pastors especially are to be guided by the example of the elders and shepherds of the New Testament church. This does not mean there is an equality of status, but if you think we can just ignore what the New Testament teaches (and you certainly do when it comes to most issues, so your hatred of the impolitic behavior of Christ Himself is hardly surprising), you’re gravely mistaken.
There is a place for all approaches. Not everyone is a pastor, but it’s hardly appropriate for a layman to presume to instruct a pastor not to act like a pastor. If someone doesn’t like the direct or blunt approach, they have no obligation to employ it, but they do have an obligation, if they are truly Christians, to defer to someone who is attempting to follow the guidance of the Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
How is it that the Holy Spirit only leads us nowadays to be “nice” and non-confrontational? That He never leads anyone to do anything that might possibly offend our pampered sensibilities? We have all become completely intolerant of direct speech when it bears a claim of truth. It’s fine if pagans want to reject speech that claims truth (due to the fact that, theoretically, no one has a monopoly on it), but for people who claim to be followers of Christ and members of His Church to be *always* so intolerant of the methods of communication employed by the Lord Himself shows how thoroughly we have become complicit with our culture’s feminization of discourse.
Try letting the Bible rather this present age shape your thoughts, and try listening to the Bible rather than judging it for a change.
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Glad to make you smile, SteveG. My point is valid, though. If you can’t ever abide hearing direct speech in the preaching of the Gospel, then you are completely unable to discern the Spirit of Christ.
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We are to be imitators of Christ.
Hmm. This is true. It’s not working out very well on this thread for many of us.
For example: …but if you think we can just ignore what the New Testament teaches (and you certainly do when it comes to most issues, so your hatred of the impolitic behavior of Christ Himself is hardly surprising)…
Not your best effort.
There is a place for all approaches. Not everyone is a pastor, but it’s hardly appropriate for a layman to presume to instruct a pastor not to act like a pastor.
Mumsee, TRS, and SteveG perhaps do not think they are being particularly pastoral themselves, but they’re doing a far better job than anyone else here, including you.
…but they do have an obligation, if they are truly Christians, to defer to someone who is attempting to follow the guidance of the Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I have no obligation to defer to anyone who I think is wrong. They, likewise, have no obligation to defer to me.
How is it that the Holy Spirit only leads us nowadays to be “nice” and non-confrontational?
Because we’ve seen that being nasty and confrontational has a poor track record, perhaps?
Try letting the Bible rather this present age shape your thoughts, and try listening to the Bible rather than judging it for a change.
And here we have the root of the problem. You presuppose that the Bible has not shaped my thoughts. You do not understand or accept the Episcopalian faith tradition (which is fine by me – I think you are most ill-suited to it, and it to you). You assume facts not in evidence. You think that the Bible is capable of both speaking for itself and analyzing itself, and that the mind God gave me should be disengaged when reading it.
I think you’re wrong, too. But I don’t need to demean you or say that you hate Christ in order to communicate that.
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I always get scared when I agree with SteveG but I too thought TRS’ well thought out response to the Pastor Roy/Thomas1 posts was very spot on. Well thought out and a very gracious response. I doubt that Pastor Roy and Thomas will ever agree and I doubt that either one will ever change their mind. Whereas I too do not agree with Thomas’ stances on a lot of positions I don’t have to stand in Thomas’ shoes and work out my faith the way he does. I have different areas that I am working out my faith in and so try and convince Thomas he is wrong and I am wrong no matter how biblically my position is it just won’t work.
Do I need to keep witnessing? Absolutely and I thought Pastor Roy’s posting of scripture in this thread was brilliant. Just post the Word of God and let people sort it out. If they don’t understand or aren’t clear in their heart how to apply Scripture to their life and are true God seekers they will find somebody well versed in scripture and work it out with them.
So TRS, it is not that you are being non-confrontational, we are all confrontational with every breath we take. It is more knowing when to press and when to hold back. When to give information and when to hold back. It is listening for the Holy Spirit’s prompting and then delivering a message knowing that you will probably never be the person who sees that message strike in a person’s heart and change it no matter how long you try.
So, I am not putting Pastor Roy down as I have immense respect for him and his efforts to post here. I am saying when you keep knocking your head on a brick wall, know when to go knocking on a different brick wall. Keep posting the Word of God Pastor, I love that approach. You just don’t have to preach it to Thomas all the time because the fact is he can’t and won’t ever receive it from you.
Same as me trying to convince Musing that Obama doesn’t walk on water. It will never happen and it just frustrates him and gets me put in posters time out.
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#87 Hopesprings – Nope. This is my first effort which is why it’s taken me years. I’ve been working on it as a writer since 2003, but I have been mulling it over in my heart for about 10 years before that since I studied and then taught Daniel in Bible study. I have picked it up and put it down several times and I have picked it up again and resigned myself to expanding it because I want it to be a historically accurate as possible. I’m exploring themes like godly friendships among men (Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego) and keeping one’s faith while completely immursed in a heathen culture, among other themes.
I have also written other shorter things, one of which was published a couple years ago in the now defunct Discipleship Journal.
I write my own devotions in my quiet time.
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IAF, well said, and thank you.
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A book has always loomed as a huge undertaking to me and I applaud you for it, Klasko. I hope you get published. I tend to limit my writing to shorter pieces and not fiction.
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GUILTY — Roeder/Tiller trial
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TRS, I e-mailed you.
Hopesprings, a book is a huge undertaking–especially a novel that requires research. I’ve published two nonfiction books, and always thought fiction would somehow be easier, but I was wrong. Fiction is harder, and all I’ve done so far (unpublished) is short books for children. I wouldn’t tackle fiction for adults, esp. something that required research. (I’ve done research for nonfiction, and enjoy it, but that’s a whole different thing.)
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Well, I, for one, think Thomas and Roy did an excellent job of presenting two very different viewpoints without going into the malarky these threads often deteriorate into. I also apprectiate Roy’s Scripture postings and do not believe he has been addressing Thomas on it in recent posts. He is putting the Word out there for us to reflect on and search our own hearts with the help of the Holy Spirit.
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I just make it up when I write.
Right now I’ve been murdering lawyers and realtors and surveyors……
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RANDOM 36
Didn’t you just have a birthday? Are you happy to be going soon?
I think it would be fitting to donate Gideon Bibles in your name. What do you think?
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David L,
All I can say is “Wow. Way to miss a point.” sigh
I would think that my posts up to this point when debating would show very conclusively that I don’t have a problem being occasionally confrontational. But, of course, there is a time and a place for that.
Yes, Thomas, I know that from your side you’re the one planting the seed and hoping it will grow.
Thanks, IAF and others. I was really surprised to read that post: #148. When I’m debating a topic, I rather expect it. Since I was trying to be really open and a peace-maker, I found it rather hurtful.
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Jersey – authors live vicariously sometimes…;-)
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Jesus was, indeed, confrontational. And His apostles certainly followed in His footsteps, even sprinting ahead at times. But He also told them to shake the dust from their feet when they were not welcomed. That does not apply in the preceding discussion (where both claim Christ) but might apply to street preachers. Go out, distribute the Word, if there are no bites, move on.
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Matthew 10:13-15 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Mark 6:10-12
Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.”
They went out and preached that people should repent.
Luke 10:10-12
But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Acts 13:50-52 But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
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Revelation 18:18-20
“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
” ‘Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.’ “
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TRS – you were both open and a peace-maker (and we know what the Beatitudes say about those). Mission accomplished. I would only counsel you to avoid letting those who do not have peace rob you of your own. It’s a lesson I learned and have been strengthened in just recently.
Your thoughtful post was very much appreciated by me and several others, and I think even those lurking who read it without comment would see its simple message as one of a truly engaged Christian.
Have a blessed Friday afternoon and weekend.
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Folks, my goal is to engage people for Christ, if it is causing a problem here then I will back off. What I did ,I did because of soul following the path of false teaching, that leads to destruction. this soul is not only following it but also is promoting. As Pastor it hurts me to see anyone falling for false teaching and being lead astray to destruciton.
Since I can not stop being a Pastor it is my calling and in my heart. I can not confront false teaching, I must then take my leave of you folks.
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Thanks Mumsee, #75. You did a better job than I would have.
That’s my ¢ Also. Seems to work!
Kim, #83. “Bless his heart”, you know what’s coming next. Like “with all due respect”. Be prepared for the punch.
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It’s really snowing here. It’s pretty.
And slippery.
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Peter L. 76
It worked. ¢
But it is very odd to “Alt. 155″ to get a cents sign. ¢
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Folks, my goal is to engage people for Christ, if it is causing a problem here then I will back off. What I did ,I did because of soul following the path of false teaching, that leads to destruction. this soul is not only following it but also is promoting. As Pastor it hurts me to see anyone falling for false teaching and being lead astray to destruciton.
Since I can not stop being a Pastor it is my calling and in my heart. Since I can not set back and left false teaching go forward and I can not confront false teaching, I must then take my leave of you folks.
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Peter L @ 128 – You’re right, Fiddler on the Roof and West Side Story are two *excellent* shows.
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“You think that the Bible is capable of both speaking for itself and analyzing itself, and that the mind God gave me should be disengaged when reading it.”
Thanks for telling me what I think, Thomas1. As usual, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
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Pastor
No one asked you to stop.
Remember that the Lord’s scripture will not return void.
Keep on pastoring as the Lord guides you.
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“Christ and Peter and Paul are not presently blogging here. People who are human, fallible and prone to various sins are. It’s amazing to me how such people can elevate themselves to Christ’s status in their own mind, to the point where their own souls are in such a state of perfection that they assume Christ’s instructive imprimatur.”
Peter echoes that we are to be Holy, because God is Holy. So you are called to be like CHrist and to live according to his example. To pursue righteousness and holiness, to be obedient unto Christ.
That does not make you perfect on earth, and expressing that concept to someone else is not elevating themselves above you or claiming perfection.
It is because we are all sinners needing Jesus, that we can talk to anyone about it.
Paul a sinner, was repeatedly confrontational, to nonbelievers and to believers…but not out of a holier than thou attitude.
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#171
Yes, and what Jesus did, and to some degree His apostles, doesn’t necessarily track with how WE should behave. Although, I don’t believe that the Disciples or Jesus were generally confrontational. They were occasionally confrontational, and usually only when put into that position where they had to be. Even so, when using Jesus or the apostles as examples, we have to be careful, because:
1) We’re not perfect (Jesus was), and we’re not God (Jesus was) and we are not the Master that the person answers to (Jesus is.)
2) God has specifically TOLD us how to behave in the Bible, and loving one’s enemy, doing good to those that hurt you, loving one’s neighbor, speaking softly and with honeyed-words, showing grace, etc. are all how we are enjoined to speak and behave.
3) I only remember the apostles being confrontational when they were dealing with the first type of person I mentioned: the one who KNEW he was wrong but went around doing wrong anyway. If you read Paul’s own words, he became “everything” to “everybody” in the hopes of saving some. Doesn’t sound like someone being intransigent and overly-confrontational. (1 Corinthians 9:22)
4) Even Jesus saved His harsh words for rare occasions. In general, He spoke kindly, ESPECIALLY to those who were lost. (He expected more out of the Pharisees, and so was harsher when confronting them, mainly because they insisted that they were righteous and didn’t need Him. The only occasion I can think of where He was even sort-of harsh with the apostles was with Peter when Peter was trying to tell Him not to go to Jerusalem to die.)
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“Yes, and what Jesus did, and to some degree His apostles, doesn’t necessarily track with how WE should behave.”
What other example is there???
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In other words, no one is asking anyone to stop speaking the Truth as they see it. In fact, that would be absolutely wrong.
But, on the other hand, nagging someone, being mean to someone, harassing someone, etc. I truly do not believe that Jesus, the Apostles, or anyone else has said that is how to behave.
If that is how you see “spreading the Gospel,” David, then I do believe you are wrong.
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As an aside, I was listening to sproul’s radio program today on the way into the office after an interview & he stressing the importance of Christians debating or even arguing (not “quarreling”) about these various issues.
Assuming both parties are Christians — and therefore both are eager to be open and faithful to God — we should not shrink back from exploring these areas of differences.
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David L. says: As usual, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
From 159: I think you’re wrong, too. But I don’t need to demean you or say that you hate Christ in order to communicate that.
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Thorn,
Please show me where the Apostles or Jesus nagged someone repeatedly with the Gospel?
Please show me where they were regularly confrontational? (John the Baptist, yeah, I will admit it. But, find me some other examples, okay?)
Please show me where the Bible says we are to force the Gospel on someone?
Please show me the verses that counter all the verses telling us to be gentle, loving, caring, meek, honey-tongued, kind, etc.?
(I think I will collect the verses that specifically tell us how to behave, and then let some of you explain to me why God didn’t really mean what He said. sigh)
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He pointed out that Paul, in fact, argued quite a lot, from what we know in reading the New Testament.
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If that is how you see “spreading the Gospel,” David, then I do believe you are wrong.
Yes, that is exactly how I see spreading the Gospel, TRS: nagging, being mean and harrassing.
I can definitely see how you could have read that from my comment.
Reading threads like this makes me realize, sadly, why the American church is in the shape it’s in.
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Buzzy @180- Yeah. I those are the only two musicals I like, I guess because of the serious plot lines and historical/cultural value.
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Thomas1,
I don’t see how telling me (wrongly) what I think is any different from demeaning me, but whatever. As long as it makes you feel superior, I guess that’s all that matters.
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I’m not superior to you in any way, David L. And I’m certainly not inferior. Not sure where you’re going with that assertion but it’s simply incorrect.
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THOMAS 151
“It’s amazing to me how such people can elevate themselves to Christ’s status in their own mind, to the point where their own souls are in such a state of perfection that they assume Christ’s instructive imprimatur.”
In your many posts of your thoughts on yourself, that is just how I perceive you to see yourself.
As much as someone claims to be Christian, how do you justify the grinding/gnashing of your teeth at every entry of Pastor Roy’s Bible verses?
And then you reply with many references to books that are used to interpret the Bible and hallowed more than the Bible itself.
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Peter L – those are the only two musicals I like, I guess because of the serious plot lines and historical/cultural value
I never really thougt about it, but most Broadway musicals don’t have those characteristics. Very interesting.
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THOMAS 188
You continually demean people.
And the fact that you don’t realize it is really sad.
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David L. #191:
“Reading threads like this makes me realize, sadly, why the American church is in the shape it’s in.”
The church in America kind of has it easy. I doubt that believers in Third World countries have time to sit at computers and wax eloquent. Maybe some do; I don’t know. But from what I do know of those places, the process of staying alive seems to take up a great deal of time. Perhaps we need a bit more suffering to realize what is of greater value.
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Paul did debate a lot. And, he certainly didn’t back down from a verbal debate when offered.
But, I don’t see him as exceptionally confrontational in a negative way. He said what he thought. But, I don’t see him chasing people down and forcing the Gospel down their throats either.
He spoke in the squares and in the temples. He might well have loved getting on sites like this and proving a point.
(On the other hand, he might have preferred just writing books and speaking in stadiums sort of like Billy Graham.)
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Christ was never sinful in the way he acted. So you cant go wrong in following it. As your right, Christ doesnt always get harsh, but he does always do is speak the truth, and the truth is more often than not what people have a hard team hearing and find confrontational
Even when done in a nice way, people knee jerk.
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@ News2Me: I’ll ignore the personal attack, since the caliber of your posts really rob them of any interest.
But this?
And then you reply with many references to books that are used to interpret the Bible and hallowed more than the Bible itself.
Who said that, and where?
And this?
As much as someone claims to be Christian, how do you justify the grinding/gnashing of your teeth at every entry of Pastor Roy’s Bible verses?
Both you and Pastor Roy lack the power to make me grind or gnash anything. It is indeed annoying when discussion devolves into a lecture, but I haven’t responded directly to Pastor Roy at all.
I think you might be projecting just a little.
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For a productive debate, it takes both sides being willing to contend (respectfully) for their points.
If one party does not wish to engage, then it probably can’t go much further.
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#202
Amen!
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This reminds ome of one of my favorite Overheard In New York entries:
Kid #1: Paper beats rock. BAM! Your rock is blowed up!
Kid #2: “Bam” doesn’t blow up, “bam” makes it spicy. Now I got a SPICY ROCK! You can’t defeat that!
–6 Train
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I received one email message to my request for response to my question. It was fine, but I have no more comment at the moment.
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Just to clear things up…
I do think Christ and the Apostles are good examples of how to behave.
However, I do think we have to be really careful not to use certain prerogatives that Christ has as Creator, God, and Master and which simply don’t belong to us — particularly when they go against His stated will on how we (His followers) are supposed to behave.
If we use the Apostles as examples, I guess what I was trying to say is that I don’t see them behaving in negative and overly-confrontational ways. They spoke Truth (which, can be confrontational to some, but that isn’t what I was speaking of).
However, I think that they spoke Truth in love, with care, and with gentle spirits. Otherwise, they were hypocrites, because that is what the Bible says to do.
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In reply to my question about respect, the issue is complicated.
For example, I have read a flood of insulting comments over the years about “liberals” and “leftists,” and so on. I have been called a “liberal,” and a “leftist,” and so on.
As I’ve said, I think it is reasonable to speak critically of Communists and Nazis as a group.
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“Please show me where they were regularly confrontational? ”
They always spoke the truth, the truth is confrontational, especially to the non believer.
Everything Christ did or said was confrontational. He came to confront sin head on.
“Please show me where the Bible says we are to force the Gospel on someone?”
Please show me where I said to force? Why are you equating confrontation with force? Those who reject the truth will always consider it to be hurtful and annoying in the least.
You can present the gospel to someone as nice as Mother Teresa was to the poor, and theyll still call you Fred PHelps.
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Random Name says: I have been called a “liberal,” and a “leftist,” and so on.
When people say that to me, I thank them. It’s so much more charming than a compliment on my tie.
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Galatians 3:1-5
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
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#208
Ah, but we’re still enjoined to spread the Gospel like Mother Theresa, and NOT like Fred Phelps.
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The definition of a “liberal” is complicated. There is no “typical” liberal. In my youth, Scoop Jackson of Washington state was conservative in regard to Communism but liberal in regard to other Democratic party issues.
For that matter, I don’t know what Christian religious belief has to do with politics such as liberal or conservative. It is difficult and time consuming to write nuanced and discriminating comments that pay attention to small differences of opinion. It is easier to paint with a broad brush and insult liberals in general. This is an example of disrespectful. It is also lazy and careless.
This is an example of expecting respect and being unwilling to give it.
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1 Corinthians 1:19-25
For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength
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Donna J,
About Luther being 41 and Katheryn being 26, My father was 20 years older than my mom. And my wife is 5 years older than me.
I am really of the opinion that age between a man and his wife really is not a big factor. What is the big factor in my mind, does a man love his wife as Christ does the Church. It is interesting to note Donna J. that Paul uses the Imperative tense in the word Agapao. That means that this was not an option for the husband. It is a divine command from God that he loves his wife as Christ loved the Church and gave him self for it.
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“Everything Christ did or said was confrontational. He came to confront sin head on.”
But, HOW did He confront the masses and individuals with their sin? That is what is being discussed here. Did He follow them around and spout verses at them? Did He call them names? Did He pursue them through the streets haranguing them?
Christ always spoke in love, except (on occasion) with the self-righteous Pharisees, and, even then, they usually “started it.”
The point is not (nor ever has been on this thread) that one shouldn’t speak the Truth. But, the point is HOW to speak the Truth and HOW to spread the Gospel.
God has told us HOW to do that, and it doesn’t involve nagging, belittling, name-calling, and so on. It just doesn’t.
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People here frequently write about “sin,” and quote from the Bible about behavior they regard as “sinful.”
I don’t believe the Bible is the “Word of God.” I don’t believe I should endorse or accept a policy based on the Bible. I don’t know if Jesus actually lived. If he did, I don’t believe he was the “Son of God.” I don’t believe he was born of a virgin. I don’t believe he rose from the dead.
Is this disrespctful?
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1 Corinthians 2:13-17 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
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The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
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I have met and interacted with people from all over the world. Some were Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and members of other sects. For the most part they were polite to me and I was polite to them. As far as I can remember, none ever threatened me in word or action.
For the most part, I did not discuss religion with them. On one occasion I did have an extended discussion with a Muslim woman from Egypt (a graduate student at the University of Washington), who told me that the characterization in the West of Islam as a hate-filled religion and a sexist religion was unfair.
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As Pastor folks the keys words
“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?”
“For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength ”
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, ”
finaily
“The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. “
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Random, I don’t think your views are disrespectful, though the fact that Christ did exist is pretty much a settled fact in recorded history.
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And, honestly, in the years that I’ve been on WMB, sometimes I’m really embarrassed to be considered a Conservative Christian. (Although, someone once told me that I’m more a Conservative-leaning Christian, and, since I’m sure I’m not as far Right as some here, that might be true.)
“Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” 1 John 4:8
The world is supposed to know Christians by their LOVE. But, you don’t see it a lot in Conservative Christian circles. You see a lot of judgment, a lot of condemnation, a lot of Pharisaical nit-picking, but not a whole lot of grace and unconditional love.
It’s a real shame. It really is. I don’t think Christ is proud of us (in general) even if our doctrine is otherwise squeaky perfect.
And, before I hear all the whining, I am NOT saying that there isn’t Truth and that we shouldn’t speak it. I very much believe in absolute Truth.
But, if you can’t speak it in love, if you can’t live in love, if you can’t share the Gospel in love, then I think you ought to question whether you know God at all. (And, I am not speaking to anyone here in particular.)
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I listened politely and skeptically. I did not argue with her.
I know there are Muslims who would kill me because I am Jewish. I know there are Muslims who are filled with hate and are terrorists.
Who are the “real” Muslims?
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news2me 01.29.10 AT 3:46 PM
Pastor
No one asked you to stop.
Remember that the Lord’s scripture will not return void.
Keep on pastoring as the Lord guides you
–
How is that for being a Pastor.
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TRS – can we clone you? We could use a lot more like you around here.
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2 Corinthians 11:1-6 (
I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
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“But, the point is HOW to speak the Truth and HOW to spread the Gospel.”
“However, I think that they spoke Truth in love, with care, and with gentle spirits. Otherwise, they were hypocrites, because that is what the Bible says to do.”
Of course it is, Christ never acted like a Phelps…but dont judge how to speak the truth or how to spread the gospel based on the responses of men.
That is where we make our mistake.
Christ spoke harsher to the Pharisees, but they were claiming in essence christianity only for the sake of distorting it to their means. It was still loving of Christ to rebuke them in such a way.
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“But we have the mind of Christ. “
How can we have the mind of Christ if we reject God’s Word? How can we have the mind of Christ if we are support sin? How can we have the mind of Christ if embrace an spread false teaching?
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#216
I don’t think it is disrespectful to say it the way you said it here.
On occasion, you definitely say it disrespectfully. But, if you say, “I don’t believe…” and just state it as a fact, then I think that is fine.
OTOH, most people no longer argue that Jesus might not have existed. It is pretty well agreed on fact that He did. (There’s as much evidence for Him as for Julius Caesar and other famous people of the time, for instance.)
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I think all religions are based on beliefs that are wishful thinking and can not be proven, and probably on a dismay at death.
I can’t prove this. It’s just an opinion. I have read comments at wmb about Muslims that sound very disrespectful to me.
I have read comments about how Muhammed’s writing represents a religion of hate. Not all Muslims are going to become Christians. Not all Christians are going to become Muslims. What is the solution besides World War V, which we seem to be in the middle of.
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2 Kings 2:23-24 (New King James Version)
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”
24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
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Deuteronomy 23:1 ESV
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
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Exodus 4:24-25 NASB
Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death. Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”
Note: Ow! And, yuck!
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Random, It is not disrespectful to believe or disbelieve anything. It may be incorrect, but not disrespectful.
If I said that I believe that you are wrong, that wouldn’t be disrespectful.
If I said you are stupid for believing that, It would be disrespectful.
Years ago, in a discussion with Ed, about miricles and scripture, Ed said that I was an idiot. I always wondered how he discovered that since all he had to go on was my stated belief. To say that in front of everybody is disrespectful.
I’m not sure what your hang up is because though your theme remains the same, I don’t recall anyone questioning your sanity or integrity.
The questioning of judgement is another thing, because it deals with subjective opinion, not inherent intelligence or physical limitations.
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Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.
Note: Well, so much for Blessed Be The Peacemakers.
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The apostles and a great many others were confrontational enough to get themself killed.
Pastor on pastor Roy.
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Judges 3:19-25 ESV
And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out.
Note: Surprise!
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#229
Evidence for existence of Jesus. I suspect that He did live, but our knowledge of that time is very unclear. I will point out again that recent events such as the murders of John Kennedy and Martin Luther King–which certainly did occur–and are the most documented and studied events of modern times–are also the most disputed and confusing events in modern history. If we have so much trouble getting to the bottom of these events, it is no wonder that there is a cloud of confusion about Jesus and the events of his time, which were written about after his death by people with various agendas and goals that are not very clear to us at this time.
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1 Samuel 18:25-27 ESV
Then Saul said, “Thus shall you say to David, ‘The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.
Note: This is before they could register at Bed Bath and Beyond.
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I started working on my taxes last night. I don’t think I ever started in January before. I always mean to, but somehow manage to keep putting it off until early April.
Be sure to check out Schedule M, which is new. I rarely read the instruction booklet except the parts I don’t understand – because most of it is the same from year to year. I really should remember to always check the section on what is new. I learned about Schedule M from a website where I was looking for commonly missed deductions. (Unfortunately I didn’t find any others.)
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Well, I just dropped back by the thread and found this little gem addressed to me (Drill) from Thomas1:
Your Christianity is not so much in evidence these days.
This puzzled me for a while – then it occurred to me that the problem we have here is definitional, i.e. as in the definition of Christianity.
Perhaps we simply have different definitions.
Thomas1 has one definition, certainly.
As an example of Thomas1’s Christianity, the other day on a ‘just for fun’ thread involving some poor lady falling into a Picasso, Thomas1 suddenly writes this encouraging Christ-like post to poor little Drill who had been innocently pontificating on the vagaries of modern art and what not, and who hardly even KNEW that Saint Thomas1 was keeping a stern and all-encompassing angelic eye on this particular thread:
Drill, you’re not really qualified to speak about art, since every single comment you post contains nothing but poisonous negativity and hate.
Get it out of your system already – pull the wings off a butterfly or shoot a songbird out of a tree or something, then get back to us.
Now, this deeply hurt my feelings – I am quite fond of songbirds (battered and baked) and butterflies (fried and sauteed), especially when he mournfully considered Thomas1’s previous numerous, hateful, often border-line obscene, and unprovoked ranting posts throughout his tenure on WMB about Southerners, conservatives, evangelicals, etc., AND his numerous (and usually unprovoked) personal attacks on posters who generally disagree with him.
(Not me, of course, as I have the lamentable habit of biting back and – sometimes – even biting first.)
And I have been wroth about Thomas1 ever since.
But then I (today) read THIS by Thomas1 (post # 121):
You must admit I’ve been remarkably patient with the harassment I’ve encountered . . . Perhaps that is the growth that you’re referring to . . .
and suddenly the tears just well up in my big soulful eyes for poor mistreated Thomas1; for not only does it seem that he have to deal with a bunch of Bible-believing Christians here on WMB, but he also has some sort of unidentified GROWTH, of all things.
So, Thomas, I just have to take back all the negative things I have ever said to you in response to all the nastiness you habitually and reflexively display toward people here on WMB; your attitude must surely and certainly has something to do with that growth, or wart, or boil, or whatever that thing is that you mention; which is more of a medical problem and therefore is not entirely or mostly (or even at all) your fault.
Speaking from my own unfortunate experience, don’t try to remove the growth or wart thing yourself using your rusty pocketknife.
Go ahead and make an appointment with a veterinarian; a vet is cheaper than a surgeon.
Plus you can go ahead and get your rabies and distemper shots at the same time, so it will save a trip later on.
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Roy’s posting on here is a lot like the verse where Jesus is looking over Jerusalem and weeping, wishing to gather them under His wings but they would not. It is his heart cry that none be lost. He expressed concern for one brother and sought to exhort that brother to look closely into the Word. He made several attempts. The brother believes he has and continues to do so. Roy then set verses out (verses which I particularly love) for the edification of the rest of us. Those actions are both an expression of love.
Thomas holds some views that seem on the surface to be quite a reach for a believer. But, when digging deeper, they often appear to be on the same foundation. He has graciously acknowledged the brother’s concern and has directed those concerned to a quick overlook of his beliefs. And asked the brother to desist.
I hope both will stay with us, continuing to offer the perspectives unique to them.
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I suspect that in the earliest days of Christianity, when for the most part Christians were much persecuted and despised, someone came up with the idea of using the word “love” as a clever and ambiguous way of responding to people who were treating them cruelly. Instead of saying, “I hate you,” (especially when the person mistreating you had a sword and you did not), you would say, “I love you,” and “Jesus loves you,” and so on.
Today, we call that “passive-agressive.” My father and mother probably should not have married. I wonder if they “had to get married” because my mother was pregnant with me. I have no evidence of this one way or another. But…
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“God has told us HOW to do that, and it doesn’t involve nagging, belittling, name-calling, and so on. It just doesn’t.”
Christ was constantly in the synagogues preaching, teaching, speaking to the truth…i bet it nagged the moneylenders quite a bit…
Do you understand my point though TRS?
“But, if you can’t speak it in love, if you can’t live in love, if you can’t share the Gospel in love, then I think you ought to question whether you know God at all. (And, I am not speaking to anyone here in particular.)”
That’s the problem, your lumping them all in a group, how is that any better? It’s worse
There may be one or two right leaning christians here who seem to speak ou tof a holier than thou attitude, but most do not.
Most speak to the truth of Christ because they know they themselves need him. To not pass that along to others, is what is unloving.
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RN @ 216: To the Christian who believes, it is disrespectful, when it is delivered in the way that you do. Day in day out with the only goal being to ridicule and smear.
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Although there was not much violence in my family (though a lot of verbal abuse), a scene from my childhood is still very vivid in my mind. I was about 9 or 10.
My parents were having a screaming match. I don’t know what about. My father slapped my mother across the face. She was small, and not very strong. She turned her face and offered him the other cheek. He slapped it.
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Pastor Roy 228,
Belief in Christ does not require belief in the Bible as we know it. Or the eunuch would not have been saved. There are things in the NASB (the true version, by the way, just kidding) which do not exactly match the KJV. We are to believe we are sinners and He is our Savior. Beyond that, we learn that salvation is through a perfect sacrifice and only God is perfect. And then God builds in us, the Truth. None of us have full understanding and as new believers we certainly didn’t. (I was going to sit at Jesus’ right hand and help Him do stuff, now I am happy with a shack on the far edge of the Kingdom.) We do have the mind of Christ but for now we see dimly.
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My thanks to Drill and Thomas for a much needed laugh. Post on!
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And Roger makes an excellent point. Speaking in a loving truthful way, gets you beheaded.
Because men will act in such ways even to that extent when they reject the truth, does not mean that we should silence or alter our message.
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Mark 13:12-13
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
1 Corinthians 15:57-58
“But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.”
2 Corinthians 1:20-22
For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 1:23-24
I call God as my witness that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth. Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm.
Galatians 5:1-3
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
Philippians 1:26-28
so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.
Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
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Thomas1,
Interesting selection of verses. What is the message you are trying to present? It is neat to read those verses as the stories that surround them flood back into my mind. Thanks for the reminders.
Reading through the OT with the kids always brings out interesting discussion. “Mom, what does …. mean?” And we talk. God is amazing in that His stories of old have such application today.
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The key words are Stand Firm.
If we are called to Stand Firm it is because they are dangerous ideas and False Teaching that are out there tring to move us from God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, God’s Word and His People.
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If, we, the Christian Values, Views and Ideas are not based on God’s Word. Then we are openning the door to have false teaching push us away from Christ of the Bible.
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We all need to rexam our value, views and ideas. Are we embracing false teaching and sin? or are our value, views and ideas based on the Word of God.
The sermon is now over God Bless an may God open all of our hearts to His True Word.
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But we don’t start with those values, views, and ideas. He meets us where we are and prunes us to be like Him, teaching and correcting through His word and through teachers like you.
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And it is the job of a pastor to step in when he sees false ideas perpetrated, to protect the flock from false teaching and wolves.
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Discipleship is the hardest thing to do. The reason is, it deals directly with our views, values and ideas. It is where Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas come into conflict with our views, values and ideas. It is where many people abounding the Christian Faith to embrace sin. If a Church or a group is teaching views, values and ideas that are found in God’s Word. Conflict will happen, when the person comes into contact with Christian, who are routed in Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas.
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In #216 I wrote:
People here frequently write about “sin,” and quote from the Bible about behavior they regard as “sinful.”
I don’t believe the Bible is the “Word of God.” I don’t believe I should endorse or accept a policy based on the Bible. I don’t know if Jesus actually lived. If he did, I don’t believe he was the “Son of God.” I don’t believe he was born of a virgin. I don’t believe he rose from the dead.
Is this disrespctful?
In #245 Roger Patno wrote:
RN @ 216: To the Christian who believes, it is disrespectful, when it is delivered in the way that you do. Day in day out with the only goal being to ridicule and smear.
I quoted these two messages in full so you can easily look at them without having to scroll. I made the last sentence of Roger’s comment bold because it implies a knowledge of my purpose and motivation in posting a comment.
This is a web site that invites people to post opinions and to participate. People are not supposed to “attack each other.” For the most part, with an occasional slip, I follow these rules.
No one knows what is in the heart of another person. People have complained to me when have speculated about their motivations for posting comments. Roger’s comment is an example of someone claiming to know my purposes and motivations.
I disagree with some of Roger’s opinions. Roger (and others here) want to have their opinions included in and maintained in law and social custom, based on their religious beliefs. In some cases I agree. In many cases I disagree.
For Roger to say my “only goal is to ridicule and smear” strikes me as disrespectful. It is difficult to hurt my feelings, but I am a bit irritated. I am a bit of a fanatic on the subject of free speech, and not impeccable in regard to my being respectful, but I would like:
1)An apology from Roger for saying he knows my reasons for posting that comment were.
2)A comment from others here saying that his comment is not respectful.
I do not expect to get an apology from Roger, though I would be pleased to be proven incorrect.
I do not expect to get a comment from anyone else indicating he should not express an opinion on my reasons or motivations. In my experience, conservative Christians tend to stick together more than they disagree and atheists and other “outliers” tend to stick together more than they disagree.
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sorry missed a word
Discipleship is the hardest thing to do. The reason is, it deals directly with our views, values and ideas. It is where Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas come into conflict with our views, values and ideas. It is where many people abounding the Christian Faith to embrace sin. If a Church or a group is teaching views, values and ideas that are NOT found in God’s Word. Conflict will happen, when the person comes into contact with Christian, who are routed in Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas.
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Thomas
Thank you for finding truly amazing Bible verses to plant a Christian seed for children who visit this blog. And your children are how old?
It must be very hard for you to focus on normal stuff in your life when it seems a day doesn’t go by but that you have referred to your favorite Bible verses (as seen in your entries above) or similar stuff that you seem to constantly think about.
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Pastor Roy,
To clarify your third sentence, which it took me a while to decipher, I think you meant to say that “many people abandon the Christian faith.”
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mumsee – God has given me a heart to teach His People, regardless if I am working with Children, Youth or Adults. Someone asked about me being a Pastor. The Church calls me the releif Pastor. I never know where I am going to be on a Sunday. The main Pstor comes up to me an say I need you to hanldy the Adult Sunday School Class an I go. I may get toward we have young adults/ teenagers I go or Children I go. He calls on Sat an say I am have to go you will have the main service. An I go.
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Pauline thank you I always get those two word mixed up.
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Another comment about “respect.”
Life involves suffering, and in the end we all die. Two ways to hep us find meaning and support are to have a companion (usually called a “spouse”) and to have children.
The conventional way to arrange this is to be married. Marriage is difficult. (Speaking as a person married for 44 years.)
For unclear reasons, some people are attracted to other people of the same sex. I don’t know why this is. No one, as far as I can tell, really knows.
Homosexuals, as these people are called, are not worse than other people
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There is nothing that indicates that they are violent or cruel or selfish any more than people in general.
Many people here do not believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry. There reasons for opposing this are, to me, dubious, and not very respectful. Nonetheless, I have long advocated, and by coincidence, my state has adoped, alternative legal arrangements, allowing adult, consenting human beings to form legal relationships that are not called “marriage.”
I think it would be respectful for Christians at worldmagblog to stop opposing this. I think it is disrespectul to keep opposing it.
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Because men will act in such ways even to that extent when they reject the truth, does not mean that we should silence or alter our message.
******And just who said we should?
Thorn, I’m not sure you’re participating in the same conversation everyone else is.
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Why should people who don’t agree with you on this issue be respectful of you?
My wife wants me to go weed the garden, as we are getting ready for spring. I will be respectful of my wife, and cruel and disrespectful, to weeds.
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Random Name,
Is it also disrespectful to say adultery is wrong?
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Mumsee has the most wisdom on this thread (although Chas is usually right up there too.)
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mumsee 01.29.10 AT 5:28 PM
But we don’t start with those values, views, and ideas. He meets us where we are and prunes us to be like Him, teaching and correcting through His word and through teachers like you.
And it is the job of a pastor to step in when he sees false ideas perpetrated, to protect the flock from false teaching and wolves—–
An it is not a fun job to do. People get very anger when you have to tell them that action or view is not correct action or view for a Christian, But it must be back up by God’s Word.
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Mumsee @ 251: Interesting selection of verses. What is the message you are trying to present?
Only this: anyone can cut and paste a Bible verse on a blog. Some are instructive, others are hilarious, and not all of them make sense out of context.
Drill, buddy? Are you okay? I’m so sorry I made you cry. Have a hanky. You’ll have plenty of time to use it soon, methinks.
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Folks, I would love everyone to thing about these questions.
What is more important Church teachings or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Histroy or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Doctrine or the Word of God?
What is more important Church pray books or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Creeds or the Word of God?
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TRS @#222: The world is supposed to know Christians by their LOVE. But, you don’t see it a lot in Conservative Christian circles. You see a lot of judgment, a lot of condemnation, a lot of Pharisaical nit-picking, but not a whole lot of grace and unconditional love.
Which is why I usually do not get involved in the extended debates, but try to type something light or on another subject.
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@ 260 – “Think of the children!!!!” has to be the funniest response to a Bible quotefest that I’ve ever read.
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Thomas1 271,
Too true. The Scripture verse must be taken in full context and with an understanding of the whole or people are often led astray. Or drag themselves astray.
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Mumsee – you are correct. In the case of Epsicopalians – and most non-evangelical Protestants – context, history, and current application are employed when studying Scripture. (WHich was the point of my link.) Catholics do this also, though they are more inclined to rely on Roman / Vatican scholarship.
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Pastor Roy,
Which is more important, a pastor’s sermon or the Word of God?
A hymn or the Word of God?
A prayer or the Word of God?
A man saying “I love you” to his wife, or the Word of God?
(In other words, I don’t see the “either/or” necessity in your list.)
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Those of you talking about the church and Christlike behavior, I recommend a book called If The Church Were Christian, by Philip Gulley. I got hold of an advance copy, but it’ll be available everywhere Feb. 2.
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The POINT which Pastor Roy is making, is imortant, too many people, churches put many things before GOD and HIS Word.
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Thomas 1, 276,
Current application would be something with which I would not agree. Words and meanings change. As people put in their 2¢, the truth is pushed to the side. It is imperative for most of us to take the word of the translators as most of us do not know the original languages. But we must be very careful that we take nothing contrary to the rest of Scripture. And that can happen when we look to the traditions of men or the common useage.
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#268
Random Name,
Is it also disrespectful to say adultery is wrong?
You are mixing apples and oranges.
Marriage is a contract, and assumes a decision based on the free will of two adult humans. For the most part, most of us (whether religious believers) or not, assume when we enter into a contract that the other person will honor that contract.
I don’t feel great obligation to tell people who break contracts, “Hey, I respect you…” I suspect you don’t either.
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Mumsee says: But we must be very careful that we take nothing contrary to the rest of Scripture. And that can happen when we look to the traditions of men or the common useage.
That’s a bit unclear. Setting one sin above another as blameworthy should probably have a basis in theology AND current reality. Too many evangelicals ignore this basic truth.
Victoria’s approach, as shown in post 279, is too simplistic. It assumes an identical translation, identical study, identical context, and a plethora of other hermeneutics which are frankly, NOT identical.
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So, Cheryl, if I say, “I don’t believe your religious beliefs are correct and I don’t feel that society should obey your religious beliefs,” I don’t think I am being disrespectful. I am simply disagreeing with you.
If I say you should not be allowed to pray in public, or if I stand next to you and make mocking remarks while you pray, then I suspect I am being disrespectful. I seldom do that while people pray.
In regard to worldmagblog, I think many people here are confused. On the one hand we are invited to participate and express our views strongly while staying within certain guidelines. On the other hand, some people get upset when those of us who are not religious believers express disagreement with their religious beliefs.
In regard to adultery, many homosexual people have committed relationships. Many homosexual people engage in unfaithful behavior. In this regard, homosexual people are similar to heterosexual people.
It would seem appropriate to be respectful of faithful heterosexual and homosexual couples and reasonable to be critical [disrespectful] of people, homosexual or heterosexual, who cheat on their partners or spouses.
I will be, perhaps, a little disrespectful. I don’t think your question to me was thought through very carefully before you posted it, though I am not offended by it and do not regard it as disrespectful of me, as I do in the comment I criticized earlier by someone else.
On the other hand, I am a little disappointed that you have not been willing to support me in regard to the issues I raised in #258. I would regard you as more respectful of me if you would join me in asking people not to speculate on my motivations and purposes. I do not see an apology by Roger Patno. I do not see anyone urging him not to speculate on my motivations and reasons for posting the comments I did.
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At one time, a while ago, I speculated on the reasons for some of NJ Lawyer’s posts and described experiences. She expressed strong unhappiness with my speculating. I have tried to avoid making such speculation. However, it is quite common for people to say to me things along the line of my participation means you [RN] really need God or are really seeking God and so on.
While I can understand why people might think that is true because I participate here, I mostly shrug it off. Nevertheless, it seems to be a double standard, and struck me strongly today.
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Random Name,
Au contraire, my question to you was extremely careful and well thought through. The Christian community, based on the Bible, sees both homosexuality and adultery as sins, and basically equivalent sins. More “significant” than other sins against covenant? Possibly not. Their consequences may be more severe than some other sins against covenant (such as defaulting on a loan and choosing not to repay it), but yes, sin is sin, and both of these are sins against the marriage covenant ordained by God; both affect family and society as well as the individuals committing the sin.
You’re willing to say that it’s OK to “disrespect” an adulterer because you agree his action is wrong. Because you don’t think (based on your own personal standards) that homosexuality is wrong, you label our disagreement with homosexuality “disrespectful.” So your own personal “sin ladder” apparently puts “disrespecting homosexuality” above “homosexuality” in badness. Tell me–why should I respect that standard, since I don’t agree with it? (You basically made it up. I didn’t make mine up.)
As to why I didn’t back you up on some earlier post, I didn’t read it. When you used to be funny and clever in your posts on this blog, I used to read them. Now I usually scroll past. When I went back to see what post you were referencing, and saw how long it was, I still didn’t read it. You may have seen that when I think someone is seriously out of line, I disagree with that person and tell them I do. I have been known to “report” some of my favorite posters to the moderator when their comments have been cruel. I can go weeks between reporting anyone; I definitely don’t do it on a daily basis. But I report “either side” when I see a clear violation. I don’t read all posts, and am perhaps not familiar with the dispute in question. When I think a post is “borderline,” or when I’ve spoken to a poster several times in the past with no results, then I simply walk away. There are some Christians on this blog whose posts I scroll past too, at least sometimes.
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Obama meets with Republicans
No teleprompter. No rules. Honest exchange.
No coverage here, so far at least. Hmm.
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Since books are being suggested (and forgive me, I know I’ve recommended this one before):
“Christianity & Liberalism” by J. Gresham Machen.
http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Liberalism-J-Gresham-Machen/dp/0802811213
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284 comments and no-one made a reference to the best rendition of the Raven as done by the Simpson’s … a true classic
I’ve been commenting here for more than I care to admit but due to multiple moves was more or less absent from June to November last year. One of the first things I noticed was the increased number of posts on WV every day and the second thing I noticed was the self-referential nature of these posts, that is, the posts were related to what had occurred within the WMB. I saw this as a sign of decline in the quality of posts.
In part, many of the posters have finally proven Random’s prediction if the agnostics or others weren’t’ here, people would pick on other Christians. Monty Python had some fun with this in Life of Brian. Doctrinal purity becomes narrower and narrower.
I’ve always said that the female posters make more sense than most of the males here. One may make conclusions about how patriarchal cultures encourage macho posturing but I will refrain.
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I originally came to today’s WV to say that restating one’s opinion does not qualify as an answer (in reference to Drill’s answers yesterday) but perhaps my expectations are too high as today’s thread demonstrates.
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Thomas 1, 282,
Yes, I thought I might jumble that as I was trying to balance six children while typing it.
Anyway, suffice it to say: ofttimes, we believers will grab onto a tiny portion of Scripture and magnify it beyond the value of the rest. And may even twist it to say something it doesn’t, in clear opposition to other Scripture. And we may do that with some sins as well. When God says sin leads to death. No greater equalizer than that. That is why it is important to search the Scriptures in its entirety not just focus on one tiny portion.
And as for traditions and current useage: traditions become habits and habits morph over time. Again, it must go back to the Scripture. And current useage, what does that mean? God’s Word is never out of date. It does not change with the times.
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John 14:6 (New International Version)
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6 (King James Version)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This is my favorite verse, in any translation. It is clear, easy to understand, and cuts to the heart of the matter. Often times we tend to question, by way of visible fruit or lacking fruit of other professed believers. It’s hard not to, and I do it as well sometimes. But in John 14:6, it is clear to me, that my opinions and judgement on the matter, are meaningless. There is but one way, thru Christ, to the Father. And it’s not for us to decide whose professions of faith are legitimate. There is but one Judge, and His decision is final. And only He knows the heart behind the profession. Sure there’s a place for Church discipline and the like, but a public forum ain’t it. I’m abit of a literalist, I think that’s the word, and pragmatic as well. I don’t mind cut and dry, black and white views on things. There’s a time to be loving, and a time for harsher methods, as Christ showed. But among those called by Him, respect should be expected, regardless of the method used.
Now I love to be snarky with people like Thomas, and disagree almost completely with his scripture interps and political views, but I won’t question his or anybody elses salvation. Not my job. I can argue with him endlessly, and sarcasticly mock his flawed positions, but musings on the state of his salvation are unacceptable. It’s disrespectful as well. We all have our struggles as believers. Praying for a brother who is struggling, even if they don’t see or acknowledge it, is more fruitful than publicly questioning whether or not someone is saved.
There’ll be mansions and shacks in Heaven. I won’t decide who my neighbors are, God will. It’s His choice who gets the shack next to mine. But like me, they’ll just be happy to be there. We shouldn’t have any problems then, as long as they keep their dog outta my yard. Sometimes it seems God has a dry sense of humor like me. I wouldn’t put it past Him to have Thomas and Roy spend eternity as neighbors. That’d be a hoot.
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Poetic justice even.
And speaking of mocking…. Well it would be way to easy here.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/01/29/obama.bcs.ap/index.html?xid=si_ncaaf
“In the letter to Sen. Orrin Hatch, obtained by The Associated Press, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote that the Justice Department is reviewing Hatch’s request and other materials to determine whether to open an investigation into whether the BCS violates antitrust laws.
“Importantly, and in addition, the administration also is exploring other options that might be available to address concerns with the college football postseason,” Weich wrote, including asking the Federal Trade Commission to review the legality of the BCS under consumer protection laws.”
Naaaa… too easy.
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#285 Cheryl:
my question to you was extremely careful and well thought through.
No, it was not. It was simply parroting prejudices that many other people parrot and backing unnecessary restrictions on people who for the most part don’t harm you in any way. As I’ve pointed out, “sin” means something I don’t like and consider more impressive if I assign it to God..
You also take safety in numbers: lots of other people think as I do, so it must be right
I am far from perfect in this regard, but to a far greater extent than you, I am willing to think for myself and not depend on lots of other people’s approval and applause to reassure me that I am correct. I am willing to read what people say at a web site of religious zealots. I am willing to talk to and respond to people as individuals. I see very little of this in you.
I am not sure why so many evangelical Christians are obsessed with homosexuality. As with abortion, you seem to be quite unable to question your beliefs and can do little more than parrot them over and over.
I doubt that there is any way to “reason” one’s way to a set of ethical standards that will withstand critical analysis by any other reasonably thoughtful person, but I think that pointing out that adultery breaks a contract does at least provide a logical basis for criticizing certain kinds of behavior. Your method of establishing a set of ethical standards is a book of myths told me so, and I really really believe it.
As I’ve suggested, religion seems to be based on a desire to overcome our death, or at least to find some meaning in our existence. Again, this can’t be proven, but there is a lot of evidence to support it.
I question my beliefs and assumptions quite a bit. Unfortunately, for the religious fanatics at this web site, my questioning does not take me closer to believing in your beliefs and values. Do you question and examine your beliefs at all, or do you just cling to them ever more tightly?
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Oh c’mon people. We’re so close to 300. Don’t make me do it myself. You have 5 minutes before I randomly post till 300. Begin.
(Jeopardy music playing)
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2 minutes remaining….
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That is an interesting scenario at the end of the first one, AJ, and I can see it. They would find they have a lot in common and enjoy learning about the other’s perspective.
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And I am typing as fast as I can.
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1 minute…..
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one more….
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300!!!!
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And as fast as the computer will let me post.
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Pushy.
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I’ve never, in all my years here, been 300. Do I like, win something, or will this just be an “attaboy”, and I go home empty handed?
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Thank you Mumsee. I know I pushed you pretty hard at the end there, but I couldn’t have done this without you.
I’d also like to thank God, and the Academy, and my fans….. and especially WMB. I couldn’t have done this without you letting me waste your bandwidth.
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You are gloating.
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About that committee. Is it still in session?
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Fan, AJ. Fan, singular. (Not even sure who it is, but I imagine you have one.)
(Sorry, couldn’t resist pricking that balloon.)
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Continuing a response to Cheryl’s silly criticism of me:
When you used to be funny and clever in your posts on this blog, I used to read them. Now I usually scroll past.
This is similar to exchanges I’ve had with Joel Mark, though I will say that you strike me as more intelligent and sensible than he is, though that is not saying much.
When I told jokes most of the time, it was a little likely going to a slightly off-color comedian. You can be a little naughty without thinking you are doing something really bad. When I write something serious that challenges your shallow belief system, you choose to scroll past. (Except you don’t, do you?)
Creationism is nonsense. I find evolution discussions at wmb tiresome, and the issues of evolution are a little more complicated than gravity, but the preponderance of evidence is that we are evolved from ancestors of primates and it is very clear that we are animals who think. It is not had to see that the hostility to evolutionary theory is probably rooted in a disgust with our “animal” [that is, primarily having to do with sex] nature, and once again, our dismay at death without meaning to our lives.
The basic argument seems to be a) we are not animals, so we won’t die and b) we are not animals, so when we wallow in lustful feelings we are experiencing “love,” and that is something different than lust, because, after all, we are not animals. However, the obsession with reproduction and increasing the population of an overpopulated worl at wmb, is in a way, the one of the most telling pieces of evidence that we are in fact animals.
Breed, breed, breed. That is what our genes tell us to do. If humans really can move beyond our “animal nature,” one of the real signs of intelligence would be to control our population growth without tyranny, without abortion, without Chinese Communist oppression. I am not holding my breath.
My wife and I had one child. Our daughter and her partner had one child. So at least we practiced what we preached in this regard.
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Ephesians 6:11-13 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
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󱃑:
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I forgot how to make a musical note so thought I would throw in a square but it did not happen. Now it just looks like Chas swearing again.
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Speaking about obsessions with reproduction, I notice some excitement about surpassing 300 comments. 300 comments in Whirld Views, each sillier than the one before it–now that is really something to be proud of! Almost as impressive as some mother who bears 10 or 12 or 15 children!
Now that really takes brains and thought!
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Cheryl D,
The committee has, indeed met. And they, after much discussion and consideration, have agreed to put your case on the docket for August 3rd of 2023. In pencil.
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Random, funny you should ask about the “examining beliefs” thing. Conan already asked this week, or last week, or sometime recently, and I believe it was on the post written just for you by Andree Seu (and which you barely dropped in on). Actually, technically he asked Ree, but several of us answered. (That thread is still sort of happening, last I checked, with just Conan and Ree contributing now.)
The short answer is yes, I have, and I’m confident that the Bible is God’s Word and that it can be trusted. Also, I don’t know if you were talking specifically to me when you said “you” as in “you see very little willingness to respond to people as individuals,” or something like that, but if you were, it suggests to me that you don’t read my posts either. I don’t know if you ever noticed, but a year or so ago when people kept saying, “That Random guy is so boring and I never read his posts,” I was one of the Christians who most regularly did. I gave up doing so only when you started being grim all the time, and predictable, and not funny or creative in your posts. But I saw you as an individual, not “an agnostic man with a lesbian daughter” or whatever. Yes, people are individuals to me, and worthy of response as individuals (or to be ignored because this individual’s posts are predictably tedious / argumentative, etc.).
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Random says,
“Continuing a response to Cheryl’s silly criticism of me:”
I don’t know what you’re whining about, but at least she didn’t say “Fan, AJ. Fan, singular. (Not even sure who it is, but I imagine you have one.)” to you. And Mumsee too. Everybody’s a critic.
Sheesh. Tough crowd. And I’m here all week folks, but I am gonna alert the doorman to watch out and make sure that heckler Cheryl doesn’t get in again.
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Folks, I would love everyone to thing about these questions.
What is more important Church teachings or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Histroy or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Doctrine or the Word of God?
What is more important Church pray books or the Word of God?
What is more important Church Creeds or the Word of God?
Folks the reason I asked that question is to many time God’s Word takes a second seat to all of the aboves. God’s Word shows us who God is. God’s Word shows us who man is. God’s Word shows us what is sin. God’s Word shows us who Christ is. God’s Word shows us who the Holy Spirit is. God’s Word shows us who the Church is. God’s Word shows us what is going to take place in the end days.
But to many time we reject God’s Word for Church teaching, History, Doctrine, books, creeds, hymns, and yes sermons. We put these above God’s Word in order to justify sin.
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All of this goes back to this
Discipleship is the hardest thing to do. The reason is, it deals directly with our views, values and ideas. It is where Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas come into conflict with our views, values and ideas. It is where many people abounding the Christian Faith to embrace sin. If a Church or a group is teaching views, values and ideas that are NOT found in God’s Word. Conflict will happen, when the person comes into contact with Christian, who are routed in Biblical /Christian Views, values and ideas.
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Cheryl,
Thank you for your response. I am glad that you see me as an individual, and that you defended me. On the other hand, I did point out that you are probably more intelligent than Joel Mark, though that field is fairly crowded.
Everyone here evaluates their own thoughts and comments, and most of us award ourselves a laurel crown and declare ourselves victors.
Nevertheless, my points remain and you have not really answered them. Homosexuals are different as a classification than adulterers for the reason I have explained, one that does not depend on a book of myths.
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Random, you say, “When I write something serious that challenges your shallow belief system, you choose to scroll past. (Except you don’t, do you?)”
Actually, your posts certainly don’t “challenge” my belief system; they merely make fun of it in shallow and predictable ways. Since you aren’t seriously interested in answers to your doubts, I rarely bother answering your questions. Since they are repetitive, I rarely bother reading them either. Is my belief system “shallow”? Definitely not. My belief system is Christianity, and you can disagree all you want, but calling it “shallow” shows that you don’t begin to understand it.
The hint that I really read you after all: Listen, Random, I even read cereal boxes I’ve already read eight times. In my work, in the past week I’ve read two 300-page books twice each, and I’ve also read several hundred pages “for pleasure.” I’m a reader. If my eyes see words, I read them. So yes, often as I scroll past posters on here, I see bits and pieces of what they say. Sometimes I even read an entire post you have written, if it is short or something in it catches my eye. Usually I don’t. That isn’t meant to offend you, it’s simply reality. (I do still pray for you, FWIW.)
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mumsee 01.29.10 AT 5:04 PM
Roy’s posting on here is a lot like the verse where Jesus is looking over Jerusalem and weeping, wishing to gather them under His wings but they would not. It is his heart cry that none be lost
–
I feel very much like that when I see people falling into sin. My heart breaks for them.
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And as for traditions and current useage: traditions become habits and habits morph over time. Again, it must go back to the Scripture. And current useage, what does that mean? God’s Word is never out of date. It does not change with the times.
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mumsee – That is the problem if you believe that God’s Word is not true, then you can change it to fit the times you are living. You can remove what God has a sin to suit society views.
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sorry I missed a word
mumsee – That is the problem if you believe that God’s Word is not true, then you can change it, to fit the times you are living. You can remove what God has Call a sin, to suit society views.
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At one time, our society was quite racist, even though race as a category is mostly nonsense. Christians were all over the map in this regard. Although racism is not extinct, we have mostly moved beyond it. Many Christians helped defeat it and for that they deserve applause and approval, but most are dishonest and self-deceptive in saying after the fact that the Christians who were racists and slave owners and what not the “real” Christians.
It is going to be a real struggle for Christians to overcome their prejudice against homosexuals, though they are making progress. It amuses me how much Christians depend on Paul who somehow appointed himself as a spokesman for God and as the person designated to speak for Jesus about the things that Jesus forgot to mention, homosexuality being one of the chief examples.
From my point of view as a skeptic, one of the most humane and intelligent Christian writers I have come across is the Catholic historian, Garry Wills. Wills likes Paul. Wills is not homo hysteric. I looked at a book on Paul by Wills; he just ignores Paul’s homo hysteria. Wills is an intelligent and sensitive writer, too smart to overlook this, so he just pretends (as far as I can tell) it doesn’t exist.
To sum up, Christianity is full of nonsense. The Garden of Eden is interesting and perceptive as a myth; it contains a lot of truth about human nature. As a metaphor—we are indeed all “fallen”; taking it as literally true is pathetically naive. I don’t care how many intelligent people believe in Christianity.
If it walks like a myth and quacks like a myth, it is a myth and a great “testament” to how deeply our knowledge of our own mortality torments us and twists our ability to think.
Do you REALLY believe that you will survive your death? REALLY, REALLY?
I doubt it very much.
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All right, Random Name, the homosexual question. According to Scripture (you call it “a book of myths,” but it came from our Creator, and I base my life on it), any sex outside of marriage is a sin. Easy for me to say, since I’m a “heterosexual,” right? Nope. I’m a single lady, so it applies to me too. And I’m a rare species, a virgin in my forties. (Not just a “technical” one, either. And, as to treating people as an individual–I may have “hinted” to that on here before, but I’ve never said it in so many words before. I’m being very frank with you.) Sex is part of a covenantal relationship between a man and a woman. Doesn’t matter if we “want” it in other circumstances, it is forbidden. It is a sin.
Of course you disagree with that. You don’t hold the Bible as revealed truth. But I’m not given an option in the matter. I have to live by it, and I have to hold it up as an actual standard that matters. But ultimately, sexual chastity isn’t going to win brownie points with God anyway, so if a person who doesn’t believe in God wants to sin sexually all over the place, it’s an offense against God and against his family and society, but it isn’t going to keep him from relationship with God. We only come to God through our relationship with Jesus, not through our sexual chastity, our honesty, our kindness to others, etc. Christians can’t get all hung up over what sorts of sins others commit. In one sense, it’s really somewhat irrelevant what sins an unbeliever commits.
But on the other hand, (1) we can’t say it isn’t sin, and (2) some sins are very damaging to the whole culture. In other words, whether a woman commits homosexual sin may not damn her any more in God’s sight than she would be damned for rejecting Christ and for any other set of sins, but society accepting the current level of sexual license is very bad for families, for culture, for children. So we can, and should, say “it’s sin,” and point out how it’s harmful to the person, her family, and society, but we shouldn’t stand around saying, “that sinner” and acting as though we ourselves are but one step away from being able to earn our own salvation by our holiness rather than that found in Christ.
And we most definitely shouldn’t stand around pointing our fingers at the sins of unbelievers and ignoring our own.
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Random Name – The key thing about homosexual is separating society view on the issue and the God’s Word view on it.
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I am going to bed, and tomorrow we will visit our daughter, her partner, and our granddaughter to celebrate my birthday, my wife’s birthday, and our granddaughter’s birthday.
My understanding is that the “girls” (as my wife and I call them) will take Random Granddaughter to attend various church services as she gets older, so she can decide for herself what she believes.
I am comfortable with this. One of the thousands of pieces of nonsense that pass across the pages of wmb each month are comments about how “my child decided to accept Jesus into his/her heart at the age of 5″ and so on.
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We are products of evolution, and one of the characterististic of our nature is that we are very slow to mature and must be raised and educated a great deal to survive and take care of ourselves.
To say that a child of 5 or 6 or 7 or so is capable of choosing their religious beliefs is indeed pathetic and ridiculous. Every time someone posts such a comment, everyone should fall on the floor with scornful laughter. If someone like SteveG says
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Pastor Roy, I indirectly responded to that question earlier, but maybe too indirectly and not making my meaning clear. So I’ll answer in plain language.
Obviously the Word of God is the more important in each pair–so obviously I don’t even understand why you’re asking the question. But ideally church history, creeds, hymns, etc. help us understand and worship; they don’t replace the Word of God, and they make no effort to do so, but they do help us understand it and they do help us worship.
On the other hand, some believers want to throw out creeds and “doctrines” and anything other than the Word of God, and that is quite simply naive. First of all, throw out church history and we’re doomed to repeat its errors. Second, that’s pretending we don’t need anybody else to come alongside us and help us interpret Scripture (which is arrogant). Third, it’s contrary to the pattern in Scripture itself (in which, for example, we are given creeds and told of times that church councils met to decide doctrine). But fourth, the word “doctrine” means teaching, and the word “theology” means the study of God–anyone who would throw out these two words is far, far too ignorant to think he can study Scripture without the help of anybody else!
So again, I don’t know why you’re asking, but that’s my own personal answer.
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If someone like SteveG says, “I have become a Christian,” as he did a while ago, that is the choice of an intelligent adult. I would be interested in what that means to him, or to some of the other intelligent ADULT Christians here, but if you depend on converting your children around the age of kindergarten, you ed up with very childish Christians.
Guess what…meet worldmagblog.
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Mumsee, thank you for letting me know about the committee. If the Lord hasn’t come back yet, and if we’re both still alive and still posting on here, don’t forget to subpoena me. And don’t forget to save the “evidence,” or the case may well be thrown out of court. (Which, of course, it should have been already.)
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Pastor Roy,
You no more about God’s word than I do. I just don’t claim to.
In any case, Jesus, who was the supposed “Son of God” didn’t bother to talk about homosexuality. So you are down to Leviticus, the crazy diet book or Paul, who appointed himself spokesman for the stuff Jesus forgot to say.
This is pathetic. I am surprised you can say it with a straight face. Go to bed. Good night. Find something useful to do besides posting incoherent comments.
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AJ, is your fan the doorman?
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Random Name, we don’t know whether Jesus ever spoke on homosexuality. We actually only have a tiny percentage of the words He uttered. But He didn’t annul the commands against it, and He did talk about sexual sin. The argument that “Jesus never mentioned it” always strikes me as one of the weakest and most bizarre possible. (He didn’t talk about bestiality or wife beating or perjury or writing bad checks either, as far as we know. That doesn’t mean He was in favor of any of those things, or didn’t think they were sins. An argument from silence is nearly always a bad argument.)
Enjoy the birthday party.
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And AJ, in case you were wondering how I got in again, I think the doorman went to the men’s room. Maybe you should scrounge up a second one so they can cover each other. But that might mean rounding up another fan . . .
Oh, yes sir, yes sir, leaving right now sir. . . .
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On the weather front, we have three or four inches of snow on the ground, the most we’ve had since I moved here at the end of spring in 2003. And my long-coated dog went halfway out, stared in disbelief that the grass is missing, and did a U-turn to come back inside. (I have a good bit of covered patio before the grass, but somehow she knew things just aren’t right out there.)
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Random: If someone like SteveG says, “I have become a Christian,” as he did a while ago, that is the choice of an intelligent adult. I would be interested in what that means to him
Actually, by the standards of most Christians here, I’m probably suspect. My theology is as liberal as Thomas’s, maybe moreso. I was and remain a Christian universalist.
In brief, what it means to me is that I believe in a God who created us (though I believe it was by evolution); I believe we are in broken relationship to God; and I believe Jesus provides the bridge for us to mend that relationship. Because I am a universalist, I believe God will get everyone across that bridge, in the long run.
I do not believe that the Bible is God’s inerrant word. It’s a very human document. I believe some of what the humans report in it, but I do not believe its words come directly from God or that everything in it is right.
By Pastor Roy’s standards, the “Christian Community” (as he defines it) doesn’t include me. I suspect a number of the other Christians here might feel the same way, though many are not willing to say it. But maybe a few can see that views are, if wrong in their opinion, not wrong enough to vote me off the island.
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You know more about God’s word than I do. I just don’t claim to
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Jesus did address when, He talk about Sodom. How the mention of the city name. The Jewish people were taught to remember their history. So when Jesus mention Sodom , they would remember why it was destroy. Also Jesus talk about it because the Jewish people knew it was wrong. Now Paul spoke about it because the Gentiles were coming to Christ an bring their false idea of sexual behavior with them. So He had to address it.
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Jesus was present from everlasting – as stated in John 1, Jesus created the world — knowing this, HE knew all things. Homosexuality was always a sin, nothings changed — READ ON
You may still ask, did Jesus create the world? – read on:
The LORD Jesus Christ made a clear statement recorded in Matthew Mark and Luke regarding the sins of Sodom and Gomorrha. In Genesis we see the sin which the men surrounding Lot’s house wanted to do to the angels.
When someone says that Jesus Christ never made mention of homosexuality they lack knowledge of the Word of God — Jesus clearly mentions the cities and the ruin which came upon them, they were all DESTROYED.
The apostles knew that homosexuality was a sin, Paul mentions it in Romans 1, Jude mentions it in Jude 1 and Peter talks about it in 2 Peter 2. The disciples knew about what was sinful – MORE IMPORTANTLY that, Jesus was vocal concerning Sodom and Gomorrha (Mark 6:11).
To infer that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality is to miss the text from the Old Testament and New Testament.
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#123 Donna J
“As for why many evangelical churches (I’m thinking mostly of the independent varieties that almost pride themselves in breaking away from the historical churches) don’t make use of the old confessions or creeds, I’m not sure.
It’s popular to say “no creed but Christ” or “no creed but the Bible” — but you still must have a creed and confession. Either it’s a sound one (which the old ones are) or it’s one based on your own random, hit-or-miss ramblings.”
I was raised in a Baptist church. We never had a creed or a confession. What have I missed? I guess it must be very important to you to have those two things.
Do any other Baptists out there think I have missed out? Do other Baptists use confessions or creeds?
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Pastor Roy said: Jesus did address when, He talk about Sodom. How the mention of the city name. The Jewish people were taught to remember their history. So when Jesus mention Sodom , they would remember why it was destroy.
And why was that?
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. — Ezekiel 16:49
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Cheryl D. “So again, I don’t know why you’re asking, but that’s my own personal answer. ”
The reason is in my debate with Thomas, I have found that he seems to have put the church teaching and history above God’s Word. Which started me thing about what else we have put about God’s Word.
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SteveG you left of a very imporant part of the versus
Ezekiel 16:46-50 (New King James Version)
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.
48 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.[a
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Victoria thank you for those passages
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Steveg, is homosexuality something that Sodom was heavily involved with” – The Scripture says they were according to Genesis.
Sodom is a city of people who are homosexual – they couldn’t wait to accost the the angles staying in Lot’s house, they surrounded the house just like hungry wild animals.
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Pastor Roy – you are welcome my friend.
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So what does that next verse mean, Pastor? “Committed abomination… ” under the Old Testament, that could mean eating shellfish or wearing mixed fibers. It’s very vague as Ezekiel uses it.
Even the story in Genesis is not clearly about homosexuality, although it very definitely is about wanton sexual license and rape. That the attempted rape we’re told about was same-sex might or might not have had anything to do with it.
And this is a story in which the “righteous man,” Lot, would have given his virginal daughters to the mob to be gang-raped instead, if it would have spared the visitors. This is not really a model of morality that we should be taking as normative for our own time.
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Victoria – what people do not understand today is the Jewish people were training about their history. So when Jesus mention the City. It would have trigger in their memory why it was destroyed,.
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Steveg
it is clearly evident as to why Sodom was destroyed – “sexual sin” – “homosexual activities” – that should clear up any misconception.
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SteveG – I am at home so I am able to debate thing a little more freely then when I am at work.
abomination issue, again for a Jewish person “eating shellfish or wearing mixed fibers” did not come into play until Moses. So the Abomination is sexual sins.
The idea of the same sex rape is a new idea being applied to scripture. homosexual was an issue in Sodom. The custom of Sodom was for the men to have sex with all visitors. This is why Lot try to escorted then Angel into his home before the men found out they were in town. Lot was consider “righteous man,” but he had his flaws. which was his down fall.
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SteveG – By Pastor Roy’s standards, the “Christian Community” (as he defines it) doesn’t include me. I suspect a number of the other Christians here might feel the same way, though many are not willing to say it. But maybe a few can see that views are, if wrong in their opinion, not wrong enough to vote me off the island.
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if my understand us correct you came to Christ in the past fews years?
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Pastor Roy 01.30.10 AT 1:54 AM
SteveG – By Pastor Roy’s standards, the “Christian Community” (as he defines it) doesn’t include me. I suspect a number of the other Christians here might feel the same way, though many are not willing to say it. But maybe a few can see that views are, if wrong in their opinion, not wrong enough to vote me off the island.
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if my understand you correctly you came to Christ in the past fews years?
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When you mention Sodom in regards to FOOD, you might read Ezekiel over carefully – ABOMINATIONS, WHOREDOM, FORNICATION, HARLOT, LEWDNESS are all part of this this chapter regarding Sodom –
Sodom is mentioned in 46, 48, 49, 53, 55, 56
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Sodom and Gomorrah Rediscovered
At the south end of the beautiful, yet barren Dead Sea area, there is a mountain known as Mt. Sodom. It is adjacent to this area that the city of Sodom was located. The Bible indicates that there were more than just the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that were destroyed that day. So far, at least 5 cities have been discovered that were turned to ash and have sulfur balls strewn throughout them. The location of each of these was found by scrutinizing satellite maps of the area, locating geometric shapes, particularly square or rectangular areas. Visits to each location, with the subsequent finding of a city turned to ash and many sulfur balls (brimstone in the King James version of the Bible), provided confirmation.
http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm
The site above is most interesting, as it shows the devastation of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The world doesn’t want proof that homosexuality is a sin, that GOD punished and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah …. the world wants freedom from sin, the right to live whatever way they choose to suit their needs, even if it means twisting the Word of GOD.
In the same way Satan wanted to be equal with GOD Almighty, he wanted to dominate what was never his, he wanted to make his own rules and dominian over the universe and equality with GOD – man is no different he who fights with GOD making his own rules, changing the Word of GOD will be no better off than Satan himself, there is no other rule but that of the GOD Almighty.
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Oh, Victoria!
You left out the part about Lot offering up his virgin daughters as a sexxxxy treat for the men of Sodom. Why’d you do that?
And you left out your own titilatting speculation of who might be gay at the local cheesy mall, in order for you to deprive them of income! Why’d you do that?
Could it be, Victoria, that there are issues about this for you?
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Pastor Roy: abomination issue, again for a Jewish person “eating shellfish or wearing mixed fibers” did not come into play until Moses. So the Abomination is sexual sins.
How do you draw that conclusion? It’s true that the word ‘abomination’ wasn’t used for dietary laws etc. until Leviticus, but it also hadn’t been used for sexual sin by the time we reach the story of Sodom and Gomorroah. In context, I think it’s more likely to refer to idolatry than to anything else.
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#352: Yep, a long long list of sins in there. And not a one of them is homosexuality.
#349: The custom of Sodom was for the men to have sex with all visitors.
Where do you get that? The Bible doesn’t say so.
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They were knocking on the door looking for the angels, and as I recall it was suggested to give them the women instead. They were looking to rape them.
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HRW: It would seem that you define ‘opinions’ as the facts marshalled or presented by others to counter your own opinions (or more precisely the malarkey planted in the unquestioning, undiscerning soil of your brain by a generation of lying politicos who are themselves responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people through their blind faith in a failed idealogy – a torch you now so proudly – and stupidly – carry forward).
On ‘what is a Christian’: Perhaps one of our ‘Christian’ posters who picks and chooses what part of Christ they want to accept, like a slovenly, elbowing patron at a buffet line in a 3rd class diner, might want to now quote their leit motif from Satan’s discourse in Paradise Lost. . . for our edification, you know.
Thomas1 got a good start on that the other day with his use of the Invictus poem as his governing principle, which is lifted straight from that source.
CherylD: You cannot argue with Random Name to any positive effect. He is a broken record and is unable to step back and view himself – or his actions here and probably elsewhere – objectively. He constantly suscribes motives to others – usually using contempt and scorn – the very thing he constantly accuses others of doing, over and over and over again, in a sort of dismal background drone.
The inward-turning ego that denies the reality of the external world (the larger REAL world) becomes a closed and inpenetrable system, a sort of geometric point in space, endlessly repeating a self-focused mantra, over and over and over.
I really do not know what his motives are for posting here, except that it may give him a sort of temporary channel out of his ego to vent rage and hatred toward the Universe – and the Gifts – he has rejected; that rage and hatred will eventually, however, accumulate and consume him from the inside out until nothing but an ash is left.
The only thing that can save Random Name is for the shell of that geometric point of his ego to be cracked wide open by a force or power greater than anything in the ken of man.
I believe that is possible.
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339 (Bob): The Bible is our one and only infallible authority as Christians.
But my sense is that by jettisoning the historic creeds and confessions, some churches — mainly those newer ones that operate independently and are somewhat disconnected — can begin to drift.
(Not all — many churches and denominations faithfully preach and teach the gospel without using such tools. And obviously some historic denominations that have kept the creeds and confessions have drifted nevertheless from what the Bible plainly teaches, as we’ve all seen; in that case, the creeds and confessions have become part of a “dead orthodoxy.”)
The creeds and confessions of the historic church are wonderful teaching tools that sum up the faith and keep us grounded. I just find it interesting that so many Christians have not been exposed to some of those historic documents the church has used for hundreds of years. The church has used them from generation to genera