So, you want to date my daughter?
A letter to a young man, on the occasion of wanting to date my daughter:
Dear John,
This letter is in response to your recent attention directed toward my beloved firstborn daughter. You asked what my rules for dating are and, in reply, I tell you this: There are none.
Although the circles in which we both run are rife with heated debate over the dating vs. courtship issue, I want to assure you our goal is to stay away from pre-determined unbendable formulas leaning toward either polarity and think our standard falls somewhere near the middle. So many variables are at play in this thing called love, after all, and in this we want to be reasonable. There are, however, a few non-negotiable traits we are looking for in order for you to be considered as a potential husband for our aforementioned daughter.
First, we want you to be a God-lover. We don’t expect you to know if you are supralapsarian, infralapsarian, or lapsarian at all, but we do want someone who is avidly pursuing the face of God—wrestling, sweat pouring down your face if need be, with what it means to be a Christ-follower. If you come to us with smug pre-packaged Christianese or as a spiritual know-it-all, you can leave out the back door, where her dad and three brothers are cleaning their M-16s. Teachability doesn’t mean you have to be an unopinionated milksop, so if you want any girl of value to respect you, find that fine line and stay on the non-soppy side.
Second, we want you to be a hard worker. This does not mean you take out the kitchen trash once a week after being nagged 200 times by your mother. I mean work, hard physically crushing work: wood hauling, engine block removal, bricklaying. I want to see calloused hands and a proven work history. You’re only 19? Did you mow lawns as a boy? Put in your mom’s garden? Lay landscape timbers? Can you drive a tractor with a manual transmission? Do you change your own oil? Those who hide, busy themselves in the kitchen, whine about how hot it is, or otherwise complain while a working party is in progress might want to wife-shop someplace where they don’t mind soft hands and slackers.
Third, marriage is one situation where half plus half doesn’t equal whole. Are you a whole person? Do you even know yourself yet? Do you read? If so, what do you read? Do you have hobbies? Ambitions? Are you comfortable being alone? Do you enjoy being out in nature with nobody but you and God and an occasional squirrel? How do you get along with your parents? Have you been on a mission trip? What are your goals in life? Are you looking for my daughter to fulfill you, to “complete” you, as we 21st-century Jerry McGuire fans like to say? If so, I hope you left your baby blue Volkswagen Beetle running in the driveway.
I’m sure there are other things we would like you to have and to be, but let this suffice for now. See, it’s not about you jumping through the proper hoops in order to let us allow you to take her out for a hamburger and a movie on Friday night. It’s about you being—or becoming—the kind of man who will care for our girl for life. This is what matters to us. Of course, if you just happen to be charming, handsome, and willing to pick up your own socks, that’s just icing on the cake.

















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back to top242 Comments to “So, you want to date my daughter?”
from the sound of it your daughter may end up marring an older man(before her generation) which is generation lost or one ten yrs younger or more(genration screwed). It is a sad reality no one wants to admit to or take blame for allowing it to happen. But good luck on the search and may the Father help your daughter find what she seeks. God bless and peace always in Yeshua. Matthew
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Amy,
Too bad your daughter doesn’t know my oldest son. He is a God-wrestler, hard worker and utterly whole human being. He is currently serving the in US Navy, reading poetry and history in his off hours. He had a fantastic sense of humor, is charming and quite handsome. Not so great with the socks, however, when he is home.
Hey, but now that I think of it, what does your daughter have to recommend herself?
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“If you come to us with smug pre-packaged Christianese or as a spiritual know-it-all, you can leave out the back door, where her dad and three brothers are cleaning their M-16s.”
Interesting.
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All good stuff, though I do not know Jerry McGuire. Lots of women like that as well, waiting for this guy or looking for this guy.
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A good book on this subject by Vodie Bacchum, What He Must Be if He Wants to Marry My Daughter. (That might not be precisely the title, though it’s close.) As with all such books, I don’t agree with everything . . . but even the “what we agree / disagree with” would make an interesting discussion.
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Mark Driscol much?
I kid. Good expectations.
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Not bad. I’d enjoy getting a letter like this from a young woman’s parents – it suggests they know how to raise a daughter well.
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This letter is a good illusration of why this matter may be best left to fathers. A young man who wants to date your daughter actually DOES need to know that:
1. There ARE clear, pre-determined, unbendable rules for you, young man.
2. There are clear and painful consequences for breaking them.
3. There will be some “polarity,” so deal with it.
4. It is indeed about you jumping through the proper hoops in order to let us allow you to take her out. Here are a just few of the mandated hoops:
You will meet us first. You will open the car door for her and most any other door in her path. If you asked her out, you will pay her way. You will bring her home yourself, on time. You will not go to “R” movies, without our expressed permission. You will keep your clothes on. You will not have sex. You will answer to us and God as well. Don’t tell us you are “born again” or that you love God. Tell us what church you go ot regularly. You will attend church regularly (ours or yours).
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And Joel Mark is very correct as well.
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Love it! right on! This is an inspiration that I’m on the right track! Thank you.
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As the mother of a son I would like him to read this before he dates anyone’s daughter. And Joel Marks’ list as well.
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You know, I have never, ever been comfortable with guys opening my car door. I move quickly. I’m impatient with sitting, and I’m not helpless.
Mind you, I’m not going to get angry if a man opens it for me, but I’m about as far from expecting or wanting it as possible.
So, I have never taught my sons to do so. They open doors to buildings, but not car doors.
So, I guess they’d be out as mates, huh? Seems like a silly reason.
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what a ridiculous second requirement. so your daughter can’t marry a musician or a doctor because these never learned to change oil and drive tractors? progress is driven by those who don’t want to work too hard and find ways to work smart. that’s what gives you your current access to internet to write your non-rules
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My six-year-old opens the car door for me. He picked it up in Kindergarten.
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Joel Mark, some of my thoughts exactly, though I’m a woman! (That’s one reason I recommended the book.) A woman deserves her father’s protection in such matters, if he is alive.
Re opening car doors: My brother who lost his wife after 32 years of marriage always did so for her if it was possible. She appreciated it, and he wanted to do it. In my mind it isn’t necessary, and not necessarily even desirable (although if we’re approaching the car from my side and he goes ahead of me and lets me in, I do appreciate that). But the idea of a man continuing for a lifetime to do the romantic touches that mean something to me, and not just doing them in courtship, is a very good one.
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Taking an extra minute to see your most valuable treasure is safely in the car is not a bad thing. My husband sometimes does it for me, my dad did not do it for my mom, two of my sons do it for their wives. I have known many old men who are always there to see their loves into the car and there is the passing of a love look between them. I like it.
Changing the oil in a car can be done by a musician as well. As can lawn mowing, etc.
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In re: 8
In other words:
1. Be a gentlemen
2. stay in public
3. stay in the light.
Boys find themselves in trouble when they break those 3. Alot of trouble if they consistantly break those 3.
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Dittos and thank you, Joel Mark.
I am soon to escort my 9 and 7 yr old daughters (wow! two dates!) to a Father-Daughter dance.
I must educate myself to what lies ahead.
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There are few things the will instill loyalty in an employee than to see the boss getting dirty in the down in the trench with you. I’ve had bosses like that I’d jump off a roof for.
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Well, I married a man that does not get dirty, for the most part.
He is an engineer. His hands are not calloused. His fingernails are not dirty.
Admittedly, there are times that I wish that he did more “man” things around the house, but, I wouldn’t trade him and have been married almost 25 years.
Sometimes, I think we have to be careful about having too many rules and requirements.
I think I will stick with: You need to love God (similarly to Ms. Henry’s first requirement), and secondly, you need to love my daughter — so much that you would be willing to give up your own comfort, your own betterment, even your own life for her.
Beyond that? Have rough, dirty hands or soft, clean ones. Work outside or inside. Be who you are that my daughter loves.
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I used to worry about what guy would be good enough for my daughter. Eventually, the issue become irrelevant.
Worldmagblog is too “sissy” to post three more blog posts:
1) a letter to a girl who wants to marry my son.
2) a letter to a guy who wants to marry my son.
3) a letter to a girl who wants to marry my daughter.
I won’t bring up the animals who want to get involved, though the polyamorous groups might be worth getting a letter as well.
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The calloused hands isn’t on my “list,” either. It is on my list that he see physical things as his responsibility and not mine, but whether he changes the oil or hires someone to do it (even if I have to drive the car there myself), I frankly don’t care. I just don’t want him leaving me to choose a plumber, call him myself, be alone in the house with him when he comes, and determine myself whether he has really fixed the problem and is charging me a fair price. If my husband is a bookish sort, or a surgeon who can’t afford to hurt his hands by laying brick, or has a bad back and can’t lift 200-pound bags of concrete, I don’t really care. If he expects ME to do those physical things or oversee their getting done, then I care. And I care if he’s lazy and won’t work to earn an income. But hard manual labor isn’t necessarily proof of manliness, and it isn’t an essential proof to me.
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In my reading of this, a young man arrives at the door to date the daughter. The question is: are you man enough to work and pay for the needs of your family in whatever you do? Do you care enough about getting things done that you have learned how to accomplish basic things? Or are you a whiner who, when there is work to be done, leaves it to others.
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Keep in mind the letter is to a 19- year-old. Every teenager needs to have done some real work in his life. I would be mistrustful of one hasn’t. When he become an adult it is up to him weather he wants to do it himself or make enough money to hire someone else to do it.
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I wonder who you had in mind while writing this post. If indeed there was someone, I then wonder if you think he will meet these requirements or not.
My first order of business this summer: learning to change my car’s oil.
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If he expects ME to do those physical things or oversee their getting done, then I care. And I care if he’s lazy and won’t work to earn an income.
******Amen! LOL sister!
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#24
Sigh. My sons will not qualify then.
They don’t change oil. They haven’t held jobs. They don’t do a lot of manual labor (although they have done some serious work in Boy Scouts for volunteer service projects, on occasion.)
Yes, I guess I failed to some degree. My husband isn’t much of an example in that way, and I (as a woman) can’t be.
Still, my oldest is a National Merit Scholar and holds a 3.96 GPA and has much potential to earn money and support a family well.
So, if his poor work history so far disqualifies him from some lists, so be it.
I figure that he’s still a work in progress, even at almost 18.
My second son is more inclined to physical labor (although equally as bright as the first), so maybe we’ll hit the target better there.
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My hubbykins and I desire to fix a place for children. We desire to adopt kids, especially sibling groups so they do not have to be split up. This means my hubbykins has had to go to work away from here to get the money to hire several people to do the work. Hubbykins enjoys doing the work but he, working alone, would be one hundred twenty seven before the house was done. It makes more sense for him to go earn the money to pay for it. But we miss him. And we can see the Hand of God honoring his effort as we prepare for four more children. I do not value him less because he hires the work done. I value him because he was able to figure it out. That leaves me making decisions I do not care to make. But he trusts me to make the decisions and to delegate the decision making to others I think more qualified than I am.
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(Oh, the 3.96 is unweighted. I know a lot of schools use a new system to weight honors, AP, and college classes higher than a 4.0. We use the 4.0 system in my home school. If we didn’t, he’d have a GPA well over 4.0, as he’s taken many honors classes, an AP, and a number of college classes.)
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Again, I really think that we get into problems when we start making lists of requirements. There just isn’t anyone perfect enough to fit into a premade list.
The Bible says not to be unequally yoked. So, our primary requirement is simply that the person be a believer.
Beyond that, loving ones spouse like Christ loved the church. (Also Biblical).
And, respecting one’s spouse (for a woman, although I think it helps if a man does this too.)
If we follow these things, the rest will work out as it works out, and may even be a little different depending on the person.
Cheryl can’t respect a man who leaves her to make decisions that she feels are his responsibility. Mumsee respects her husband, even though he trusts her to make such decisions.
Whatever it requires for a woman to be able to respect her man, and a man to love his woman as Christ loved the church (even to the point of dying for her).
No other lists required. The Bible already has the requirements that will work every time.
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It is important to get children involved in work. Whether they continue in that vain or not is irrelevant, but they need to learn what work is. If they then go on to become engineers, fine, they will then have compassion for those who come and fix things. Right now, I have two children age eleven and twelve, who took a day off of school to go help a sixty five year old with some garden work he is doing for a ninety year old. The young man will be pruning the fruit trees and driving the tractor. My kids will be picking up sticks and tossing them in the trailer and then off loading it. The things they are learning today far exceed the day of school work they are missing. The fact that they have worked hard in school so they could get ahead so when these opportunities arise they can go for it is another plus in their favor. And they will hear stories. And that is priceless.
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TRS, one thing my father did was peek out through the venetian blinds in the dining room to see if the fellow opened the door.
I can say that as a girl, if a boy wasn’t able to do a lot my father could do, I didn’t think much of him; and as I got older, I expected them to have the judge’s brains and education, too. Too tall an order, I suppose.
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“..I mean work, hard physically crushing work..soft hands..”
Now why should a Christian father of a Christian software developer at Google/Microsoft, etc. recommend an interest in your daughter, if mama taught her such narrowness?
Mom needs, at a start, one computer class at the community college.
Enter the 21st c.
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NJLawyer,
I think it is sweet when a girl wants a man like her daddy.
And, it says a lot of good things about her daddy.
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Well, not to mention that when my sons have done physical labor, they are smart enough to wear work gloves.
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Glad to see so many disagree with the list. When I first read it, I thought it was heavy on the physical side and light on the mental side.
For instance:
Why wood hauling instead of wood splitting? Anyone with a strong back can haul wood; splitting it requires strength and a bit of skill.
Why not changing a tire instead of changing the oil? In all my years of driving, I’ve never had to change the oil in the middle of a trip. I can’t say the same about changing a tire. Also, engine block removal? Seems far more practical to be able to jump-start a car. At least that’s something you might use once in a while.
Perhaps I’m making too much of the parts I disagreed with. Full marks for the emphasis on being Christ-centered. I suppose everything else is negotiable.
Suggestion: ask the young man what is his favorite Bible verse and why.
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I don’t think it’s such a bad thing if a young woman knows how to change a tire or the oil either. In fact, I think a good wedding gift is a small tool box for the bride.
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How about cleaning the mice out of the air filter. I don’t like doing that so if son in law can do it for me, it would be a definite plus.
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Now, THAT is an interesting requirement: “Must be able to clean mice out of air filter!”
LOL
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Yes, I think cleaning the mice out of the air filter is a man’s job, definitely. Right up there with disposing of spiders, maintaining the house, the appliances and the cars, and all yucky jobs. Not that girls shouldn’t understand, but there is a division of labor, if you ask me. I, of course, would cook, clean and bake, do laundry, etc., though my sister has trained her son to do all that, too.
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#36
Agreed. My husband of 24 plus years can change a tire. And, he’s needed to do so.
An engine block? Not likely.
And, we’ve long since gone to having someone else change the oil. He did it once or twice when we were first married. It’s a mess. You have to find a legal way of disposing of it. And, for $30 you can get someone else to do it right and take it off your hands!
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Oh, and since we have a gas fireplace and live in the suburbs, no hauling wood OR splitting it.
I think my sons might have done it once or twice in Boy Scouts.
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I think that Amy might be the first woman whom I have read who apparently would complain about the man having soft hands from doing the dishes. Callouses do not equal character. Diligence and responsibility do. Don’t get all caught up in the whole “real men have big muscles and scars” thing. I am more impressed with a man who knows his own weakness than a man who flexes.
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My husband could have written this letter. I love it. Thank-you! We’re sending it to a young man very soon!
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Again, I have a problem with adding anything not biblical.
1) Be a believer.
2) Love your future wife as Christ loved the church.
3) Respect your future husband.
4) Honor your parents (which would include in-laws. I forgot this one before. You don’t have to OBEY them, or even agree with them, but treat them with honor and respect.)
Anything beyond that is personal taste. (Nothing wrong with personal taste, but I’d hate to define it for my daughter or my son.)
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Regarding opening the car door, my point is that it would be a starting rule for anyone dating my daughter who lives in my home. It should not imply helplessness, only respect. If a boy failed to do this, hopefully, my hypothetical daughter would kindly and gracefully tell him it is something she desires and that whe wants to be treated that way. After that, if he refused, that would be a problem. Doing it for her either naturally or upon her request would serve to actively add to the respect he needs to have for her. It would also signal to others that he is respectfully considerate of her. When she decides to tell him to stop, that is between them.
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#43
Amen! Some of the greatest guys have little muscle and no scars.
Still, I do have to admit that, as a woman, I find muscle appealing to the eye. But, fortunately for my guy, it is very low on the list of requirements.
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How does one love his future wife as Christ loved the church?
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Again, the idea of the guy being willing and able to work, is probably the core idea. And having had and kept jobs would indicate a willingness to respect authority. It is not just about being able to change the oil.
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#48
He thinks of her and her desires above his own. He considers her opinions. He wonders how he can best be a servant-leader to her. He protects her. He cares for her. He values her.
I don’t have a perfect handle on it, but his intent should be to strive toward showing her the kind of love Christ shows His church. That will require a lifetime of working out.
In a practical way? He knows she hates to go out in the dark, but she needs ingredients for something. He goes out in the dark to the store for her, because he loves her, even though he may not like to go to the store.
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TRS and I have had this discussion before, but especially as an older single, the “list” is downright essential to me. Some of it is negotiable (being able to fix things around the house is on the list–but negotiable as long as he’s willing to take responsibility for it), but much of it is not negotiable. If he wants me to work full-time outside the home and put our kids in daycare, for instance, he’s the wrong one for me. It is absolutely essential to me that I know where he stands on a wide variety of issues, including being 100% committed to no divorce.
It may not seem to matter much what version of the Bible he uses, but if he uses the Living Bible, it’s a fairly good sign he’s a spiritual babe; if he’s avidly KJV-only, he’s probably judgmental and not the right man for me. So I want to know that we’re in agreement on the fundamentals, and have discussed the peripherals enough to know we can plow together if we come under the yoke.
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Remember, this letter was to a boy interested in dating the daughter. Does he already know her interests and dislikes that well? The letter is a suggestion of how he can show his love for the daughter will be worked out in action.
A kid who shows up at the door, eyes glazed from hours of video games, demands entry and a soda pop while he waits in his pizza sauce covered tshirt and jeans, walks to the fridge and starts browsing, etc, is not going to make a good impression on the parents.
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No, but demanding that the kid be able to change oil in the car, remove an engine block, and have rough hands seems pretty shallow to me.
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Those were suggestions of proofs of a work ethic.
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Cheryl,
It really is a different ball game for the older woman and man than it is for the younger ones who will do much of the early adult growing together.
And, again, my arguments are that the only requirements a PARENT should have should be the biblical ones because the rest is PREFERENCE and should be the preferences expressed by their daughter (or their son) NOT the parents.
So, you should start with the same Biblical foundation of *requirements* and then you are perfectly within your rights to PREFER additional things in your man, so long as you don’t overlook a great guy for some really small nit-picky thing.
(And, honestly, even that would fall under your preference…it just isn’t particularly realistic. Sort of like buying a house. You have a list that starts with requirements, moves down to strong desires, and then down to “icing on the cake” stuff. So, if you get a house that has all your requirements, and most of your desires, and some of the icing, then you did pretty well.)
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#54
I have a really strong work ethic, and I can’t do any of those things.
And, again, I know how to use work gloves!
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How does one know about your work ethic?
Work gloves: I go through many pairs of work gloves each year, that does not mean my hands do not show signs of work.
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If an active drug user comes to the door and wants to date daughter, should dad say yes if the guy says he is a believer? How about if the daughter wants to be an active drug user also or thinks she can fix him?
Obviously that is a clear case but it would indicate the parents doing their part to protect the daughter from stupid.
Joel’s list is also very important, in the interest of protecting the daughter.
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And this “whole person” bit has me a bit confused. Remember, I have an almost 18 year old. And, no, I don’t recommend he marry at this point (and, since he’s never dated, I don’t think I have much to worry about yet).
Still, he’s far from a “whole person” yet. He’s a young adult who is still searching for who he will be and what he wants to do and how he wants to serve.
But, was I a “whole person” when I got married? I don’t think so.
If I were Cheryl’s age (and I am!!!) and if I were looking, I’d certainly expect a “whole person.”
But, I don’t think I’d expect that out of a 19 year old yet. I’d expect promise, and diligence, and potential, but much of that becoming a whole person takes quite some time, and, sometimes, is easiest done together as young people.
I mean, it is harder for two “whole people” stuck in their ways to merge, I think, then for two young, not-fully-formed people to grow and merge together. So, I’d be more likely to look at the path that a young person was on, rather than demanding that he already have reached his destination.
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I suppose the thing that annoys me (or is sad to me) about this blog entry is the attitude that parents often take towards potential suitors for their kids. If they act hostile and put up a front that suggests “I think that you are probably a loser and probably not worth the buckshot it will take for me to dispatch you,” they are hardly creating a setting to invite a real man in. No real man wants to enter a house looking for a wife with both guns already blazing to defend himself against the people who aren’t even his in-laws yet.
That’s not asking for a real man. In fact, more often than not, that’s asking for a sleaze-ball who will decide to circumvent the parents altogether and go after the daughter some other way.
Parents get it into their heads that the mysterious “real man” will get it into his head magically that their daughter really is as amazing as they think she is — but without getting to know her, because they won’t let him get to know her without a full background check and daddy’s boot camp. So we expect the suitor to die for our daughter before he is allowed to get to know her well enough to see if she is worth dying for. Then we are amazed that our Proverbs 31 daughter is 31 and single. It’s tragic, more than anything.
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A believer wouldn’t be an active drug user. Or, if recently converted or recently fallen, wouldn’t be looking into marrying until ready.
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#60
I agree with you. And, I have a daughter! (She’s only 10, but I don’t plan on being this kind of parent.)
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And, Hans, that is the problem that I have with the “Courtship” model. How does a guy know that he is interested enough in a girl to “court” her, if he doesn’t get to spend some time with her first without all the pressure of being “serious?”
If he has to formally ask her parents for permission to court, and jump through all the hoops before either he or she know that they are even compatible, then it seems to me that the courtship model is asking for either a lot of hurt feelings (whoops! we’re not right for each other, even though we’ve now made it public and official that we’re courting), or some bad matches (well, we’ve already made it official that we’re interested, and we’re already on the path to marriage, and we honestly don’t know much about each other.)
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Actually, they well can be. To both sentences, TRS, 61. Unless we are saying that we can judge the servant of another and determine that they are or are not believers without seeing their hearts.
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Which is why we went betrothal and not courtship. Son and daughter in law are very happily married, thank you, and moving right along in growing with each other.
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And that is the problem some have, how can you know you are compatible unless you live together? And have five babies first?
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#61
In addition, he wouldn’t be able to love her as Christ loved the church if he were asking her to do drugs or accept him doing drugs. Nor would be be showing honor to her parents.
Honestly, what is wrong with the biblical requirements? To me, they say it all: Love, honor, respect, and God in the forefront of everything.
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#66
Well, again, the Bible answers that. We don’t live together without marriage or have babies without marriage.
It isn’t necessary to create additional rules. They are already there.
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#66
i.e. We don’t fornicate to decide we’re compatible.
But, we can certainly go out for a hamburger and a coke without having to get formally betrothed.
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67,
Why? Are you saying only the sinless need apply? What if the guy likes to eat too much? Or if he wears flannel rather than polo? How do we know he would not be able to love her as Christ loves the church?
Nothing at all wrong with the biblical requirements. I am just suggesting that love, honor, and respect can be shown through actions better than through words.
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This is all very interesting, however my husband didn’t/doesn’t have ‘calloused hands’ nor did he drive a tractor (parents didn’t live on a farm, his father was a scientist) he did mow lawns as a kid and changed his own oil – no need to haul wood, his parents bought it – no need to lay brick, his parents had a lovely home which didn’t need to be built. My husband loves to read, attended college, his pursuits were not that of a laborer, but of business. My husband loves the garden and we do much of it together, but employ a gardener for cutting palms, grass and other needed garden duties once a week.
The most important thing would be a young man who IS a born again Believer who loves the LORD and loves to study the Bible – who respects his parents and others – a young man who’s reputation was not that of chasing every pretty girl he met. A young man who does not drink (under 21) or does not run in a crowd who drinks or treats women badly. A young mans friends are a good indication of just who he is, and what he expects from those he surrounds himself with.
Church attendance is most important but it does not trump being a Born Again Believer in Christ Jesus, there are a lot of so called ‘church attenders’ who aren’t Believers – SO – that is the FIRST and FOREMOST IMPORTANT prerequisite in dating – that goes for a young man or young woman- IF being a Born Again Believer is missing all the rest doesn’t matter.
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Keep in mind, friends, that this is just my own personal opinion. This list is not prescriptive, all-encompassing (see the comment in the last paragraph), nor does it indicate that I am a calloused mother with rigid impossible-to-obtain standards. To deduce that from what I intended to be a fun take on a serious subject is silly.
Please read this the way it is meant to be read instead of splitting hairs over semantics. If a soft-handed fellow wants to marry my girl, that’s up to her. But a mother can dream, can’t she?
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Mumsee,
I’m not sure where we’re miscommunicating, but I’m taking the OPPOSITE tack to that and saying that rules such as being able to change oil, remove an engine block, drive a manual tractor, and wear “flannel rather than polo” are ridiculous. They are preferences that have NOTHING to do with how able a man is to love his bride as Christ loves the church and are extra-biblical. They are PREFERENCES best left to the potential bride and groom to decide.
And, then in your second paragraph, you argue for the same subjective standards that you make fun of in your first.
Tell me HOW being able to change an engine block shows that someone is better prepared to be a good husband than wearing polo or flannel?
My husband, a very good man, cannot change an engine block, has soft hands, does not change our oil, cannot drive a tractor manually, nor fit many of these subjective requirements. Yet, he is a godly man and a good husband. So, how are these subjective PREFERENCES somehow indicative of who would make a good husband?
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I’m all for courtship, provided that we don’t invent some new system of what courtship “really” is. People seem to think that courtship is “how things used to be” and then they come up with a description of something that has never existed.
In my view, courtship includes several things that are essential.
First, the man and woman both must be serious about finding a spouse, not just casual dating. This does NOT mean that if they start dating, that they therefore want to marry one another. It means that they are both interested in pursuing a relationship towards marriage, and that marriage is in the foreseeable future for them, and is not some distant “well, one day I could see myself…” possibility.
Secondly, the parents are involved in this. That does NOT mean that the guy dates the parents first, before he is allowed to know their daughter. It means that they are involved in helping her to discern the character of the man and participate in the relationship. If he marries her, he will be marrying into her family too.
Finally, everyone involved (including the parents) have to realize that no system of courtship or dating is going to removed the risks involved. Two people are putting themselves in a vulnerable place, which means they are opening themselves to the possibility of being hurt. For the girl’s parents to expect that the first guy who comes along to court their daughter is going to be the one is just improbable. For them to think that every time it doesn’t work out that the guy is a horrible jerk is unfair. These things are difficult and take time.
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#71
Certainly. Parents can dream like anyone else.
However, if she chooses someone that doesn’t quite meet up (as my mother did my father) don’t make the couple suffer under your disapproval until they have your grandkids (as my grandmother did.)
Of course, once my parents had me (the PERFECT grandbaby…lol) then all was forgiven.
(obviously, if my dad could help make me, he must have been a great guy. lol)
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And, I suppose that, as a mother, I feel just a bit disparaged that my beautiful sons, who I love with much love and feel are great “catches,” couldn’t be considered acceptable under these requirements.
Mama bear and all, you know.
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TRS,
Okay, what I am saying is: we see somebody’s character through their actions. Amy suggests calloused hands, opening doors, etc. A person can be a cad and open doors. But he is not likely to be one if he also is capable of working hard. That does not mean that only a guy capable of doing oil changes, engine blocks, etc need apply. But a guy ought to be able to hold down a job and see to some maintainance around the place, whether it is paying somebody to change the lightbulb or doing it himself. That shows initiative and an interest in the family comfort.
I am hearing you suggest that “love my daughter” is quite enough. I am asking how you will know he actually does love your daughter and is not just using her? Or would you leave her on her own for that? Some daughters would like help with discerning and others do not and still others wish somebody had spoken up before they were left with five kids and no husband.
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TRS…don’t worry, I won’t. That’s not how we roll at the Henry house. Between the two of us we have fourteen siblings, so have lots of practice embracing less-than-ideal in-laws. Some of them are now my favs:)
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I mean, what first appeared to be less-than-ideal.
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Fair enough, Amy. I should temper my own responses with more cautious words. After all, I do agree with the general sentiment that a lot of guys these days, 19 years old or otherwise, are absolutely unfit to marry our daughters. On the other hand, I think that parents have to be very careful about the environment that they create for potential suitors, because if they create the impression of hostility, or of “guilty until proven innocent,” they are going to keep good, strong men (some even with calloused hands!) who are potential husbands out. This isn’t because the guys are wusses and don’t want to take a little heat from the parents for the sake of their daughter (who might be totally worth it), but because they don’t know your daughter in the first place, and therefore don’t think that it’s worth taking the heat to get at all near a woman whom they don’t know.
Perhaps another way of doing things is this: don’t make a big deal out of a guy wanting to take your girl out for a burger on Friday. But stay involved, be interested, and open your home to him too. Then you will actually get to know him, your daughter will feel like she can trust you (and not feel like you are chasing away every possible man who has expressed interest in her), and then save your big guns for when it gets a little closer to actual marriage. Then you can, so to speak, kill any soft-palmed, kitchen-loitering loser who thinks that they deserve to marry your daughter. But at that point, hopefully you will have already stepped intervened in the context of a relationship both with the guy and how he relates to your daughter, which proves to your daughter that you aren’t just shooting him down for kicks.
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75,
Only you have said your sons would not qualify, yet you say they have a good work ethic. How will the gaining girl know this?
And, by the way, I have a son who did not do a great deal of manual labor, did not work hard, did not have a job until after college (other than working in the college bookstore) and is fine financially.
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#78
LOL Yes, be careful! You never know when one of those in-laws is reading this blog!
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A lot of girls think they are just going out for a burger. A lot of guys don’t. A lot of guys think they are just going out for a burger. A lot of girls don’t.
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TRS, that certainly wasn’t my motive. I’m sure your boys are wonderful.
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Perhaps another way of doing things is this: don’t make a big deal out of a guy wanting to take your girl out for a burger on Friday. But stay involved, be interested, and open your home to him too. Then you will actually get to know him, your daughter will feel like she can trust you (and not feel like you are chasing away every possible man who has expressed interest in her), and then save your big guns for when it gets a little closer to actual marriage.
******I agree with this.
This, Mumsee, is how you know. You get to know the young man yourself. You invite him into your home, you invite him to family functions, you watch his behavior, listen to his words, and observe how he treats your daughter.
And, you mention his behavior (good and otherwise) to your daughter as you notice it, letting HER make the conclusions about what it means.
You don’t pick out some random requirements and assume they tell you anything about the young man. And, you don’t subject him to some sort of test (beyond the Biblical one: does he profess Christ?) before allowing your daughter to go get a burger with him.
There are myriad ways that the young man can show you his work ethic, his values, the validity of his beliefs, his care (as he get to know her) of your daughter. They will be different for each young man. And, the only way you will truly be able to evaluate him is by forming a relationship with him over time, just as your daughter is doing.
Not with some subjective list that says something completely different to me than it does to you.
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Hans, I think your approach as stated is balanced. Good, good thoughts.
Although I admit, all this hamburger talk is getting me hungry.
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Agreed, TRS, that is how one would come to know his work ethic. But meantime, daughter has fallen “in love” with the guy and it turns out he has no work ethic. He has no intention of ever doing anything more than let her work outside of the home and in while he watches tv and plays video games which she buys for him because she is sure he will change, she could not be that wrong about him!
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Amy, I am feeling slighted.
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Me too, Amy. I shall now eat a stale Valentine’s Day cookie. Let it be no blight on my model of courtship that I bought the cookie from Walmart for myself. ;-P
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Mumsy, Mumsy, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways…
Thank you for ‘getting’ me today. We should all go out to Chili’s.
Yes?
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#86
And, interviewing him with the questions above will protect your daughter from this potential heartbreak how???
There are a lot of guys out there who have a strong work ethic and still beat their spouses. There are a lot of guys out their with rough hands, who tinker on cars a lot (and even rebuild them from scratch), that I wouldn’t want within 10 miles of my daughter. There are a lot of guys who can cut wood, haul wood, and stack wood that would still leave their wives barefoot and pregnant with #5 because a new woman caught their eye.
Picking out some subjective “positive” traits that mean something to you really tells you absolutely nothing about the young man in question. It is all about relationship.
The only thing that might help in such a situation is continually reminding your daughter while growing up how she should be treated, your husband giving her a good model of how to treat his wife, and talking to her regularly and asking her questions throughout the “getting to know you” phase of the relationship (where hopefully, you are getting to know him too, and can point out some problematic behavior.)
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In other words, the only thing that I think will really help (other than lots of prayer) is rearing your daughter up to have *standards* so that she will not “fall in love” willy-nilly with some guy that is going to treat her badly.
I had standards. In fact, I was rather picky. But, I knew that I simply wouldn’t put up with anything less than respect and love, and that a guy who hit or hurt me would be out the door faster than you could blink.
I was reared to that. It wasn’t suddenly given to me at 18, nor did my parents heavily screen my dates (although they did want to meet them, and they did include my more serious gentlemen callers in family functions. My sister’s too once they got serious.)
*I* heavily screened my dates, and *I* had requirements of them because I had been brought up to have those values.
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I guess, because I never really dated anybody but Idahomike, I have nothing from which to speak. I will shut up.
Except…I was spoken to by a post person!!!! wahooo!!!!
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“hard physically crushing work: wood hauling, engine block removal, bricklaying. I want to see calloused hands and a proven work history.”
This seems like a dumb requirement. What if a kid grew up in an apartment (no yard work) and has since had white-collar jobs that don’t require manual labor?
“Those who hide, busy themselves in the kitchen, whine about how hot it is, or otherwise complain while a working party is in progress…”
I wonder: would you apply this standard to women your son wishes to marry? Or do you require the same from your present daughter?
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Ok, it is not physically possible for me to shut up on a subject in which I have a great interest and am interested in other folks’ views and how they plan to attain it.
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Two guys working on a project. Say…fence building (and I have seen these two guys). One picks up the post hole digger and sets to work. The other stands to the side holding the shovel. After a few minutes, the post hole guy says the shovel needs to be applied. The stander hands it to the digger. The worker then shovels. Soond the hole is complete. The digger lifts the post and drops it in the hole. The watcher watches. The worker then lifts the tamper and begins tamping down the dirt. The watcher comments on how hot it is outside and wipes his brow. The digger digs sixteen more holes and places the posts. The watcher hands him the shovel and the post hole digger and the tamper as he drinks from his thermos.
Now take that scenario and replace it with countless others. You get the idea. Some guys work, others stand by and watch. Workers are more productive, happier, and more trustworthy than watchers. The work may entail manual labor or it may entail mental work, same types of people involved.
Yes, anybody could be an abuser and we want our daughters to not ever get into such a place.
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If a kid grew up in an apartment and has since had only white collar jobs, he is probably not nineteen. You have just described one of my sons.
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#95
Agreed. That would be a character flaw.
But, you wouldn’t know that until you actually asked the guy to help you do something around your home and saw him do it…or not.
And, some leeway would have to be given if he’d never dug a fence pole in his life and had no idea what to do. Then, it would be the post-hold digger’s job to explain the expectations and how to fulfill them, and then see what the guy did.
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Teach-a-bility is a very important trait. Not all of us have had the chance to have done whatever it is.
My sons participate in a home school drama group. The director gives the choicest parts to those who are willing to follow direction and learn.
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Ah, but ingenuity is also good. Looking at a problem and figuring it out.
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Following directions is the most difficult thing for two of my kids in particular. Having raised themselves to the ripe old age of ten, they are not overly willing to let anybody tell them what to do. But it is important.
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Amy,
I loved it! – and accepted it in the spirit intended! You don’t need to defend it.
I really can’t see why so many took “offense” at it. I’ve known more than one father who has verbally told prospective suitors of his daughter something very similar.
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I don’t know that we were “offended” as much as in disagreement with some of the details.
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I know you’re all talking about what the fellow has to do, but I liked reading the post about a girl respecting her husband — and I think she should respect him before she even knows him. The girl has to have self-respect, too, taking care of herself before she even meets her husband. And that comes into play in your discussion about a girl getting involved with someone who is abusive. My mother had been attacked, but got away, from a boss, and she made it clear to me that if something like that happened at work, I could feel free to talk back and just walk, if necessary. If a girl is taught that no one should hit her, she’ll be able to weed out the controllers if she meets one.
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TRS, I agree with you that the parents don’t write the list. In fact, I have a disagreement with someone close to me on this very issue. She thinks it is wrong for a girl to attend college. When her oldest son was about nine, she told me that he wouldn’t be likely to marry a woman with a degree. Before he did, he’d have to see a change of heart, see that she wasn’t a feminist now. If she had a master’s, he probably wouldn’t be interested in her at all, but only if he saw serious repentance. Well, here I am thinking my college years were about the most important of my life, and I’m not a bit repentant for going (nor do I see anything to repent of), and I also think that that’s an extrabiblical standard and way outside a parent’s business! This person’s oldest son happens to be brilliant, and he may on for a great deal of higher education himself, and may prefer a wife who has at least a B.A. Will he be in sin if he does?
I do think that even a younger single needs to have some sort of “list,” however. Even when I was 20 I knew I wouldn’t consider a man who wanted me to work full-time when we had young children, or who wanted to limit our family to one or two kids, or who didn’t have a definite commitment to no divorce. These days couples can get into huge problems when one of them finds out only after marriage that one is $50,000 in debt, or that the husband expects his wife to work full-time, or when one is determined to wait many years for kids if he wants to have them at all. . . . It’s the better part of wisdom to discuss such things, either in premarital counseling or outside it.
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Cheryl, the kid was nine, which means he heard all that nonsense somewhere, probably from someone who had no education himself. A secure man wouldn’t have a problem with a woman who has an education.
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NJL, it wasn’t the kid who was saying what he’d want in a wife. His mother was saying (for him and for her other son) that as a man he will not, of course, want to marry a woman who’s such a feminist and so ungodly as to go to college, especially to get an advanced decree. (I think she basically said that if the woman has a doctorate–horrors–that probably no repentance is enough, because she will be too warped by her training to be a submissive wife.) She’s basically saying, “We’re raising our children in such a way that they will believe x, y, and z,” and assuming the children will actually accept those principles in adulthood themselves. For their daughter, especially, they’d say she would absolutely not marry a man with a particular belief, because they think that a father is his daughter’s full authority until she marries (even if she’s 52), but for their sons they’d come close to saying the same thing, except that they’d probably give their sons some latitude to reject some of the parental philosophy when they reach adulthood.
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A secure man wouldn’t have a problem with a woman who has an education.
For that manner, a secure church probably would not have a problem with a woman pastor.
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You see, I’ve always thought that a good marriage will be between two people of a comparable intelligence and education, so that they can communicate on the same level.
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Random Name, you speak of what you don’t understand (post 107). Obedience to Scripture is not “insecurity.” But, regularly scoffing at a God you don’t even believe in . . .?
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93. Boy, would I hate to work for him.
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I doubt that very many people here really believe that humans survive their physical death. The fall back position for our death dismayal is our offspring. In biology this is referred to as “sociobiology.” We want to live on through our descendants. We want them to look like us and to display our values. ["Must marry a Christian..."]
We are more complicated than ants or bees, so we will settle for “virtual” descendants as my wife and I do for our non genetically related granddaughter, and as many of you do with adoption, even going so far as to steal children from counties such as Haiti.
Let’s be honest here. How many people reading and posting comments in this topic have had children marry non Christians? How did you deal with this “betrayal.”
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111. “I doubt that very many people here really believe that humans survive their physical death.”
Keep saying it, Random. One day you may convince yourself.
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I do think that even a younger single needs to have some sort of “list,” however. Even when I was 20 I knew I wouldn’t consider a man who wanted me to work full-time when we had young children, or who wanted to limit our family to one or two kids, or who didn’t have a definite commitment to no divorce.
******I agree. I think what I’m rebelling against is the term “requirements,” as opposed to “preferences.” Yes, some preferences probably are requirements, but many of them are not.
It’s the house thing again (since most of us have bought one before.) You have your absolute requirements, your very strong preferences, your regular preferences, and your icing on the cake things. If you get ALL of of your requirements and strong preferences, many of your regular preferences, and a few of the icing on the cake things, then I think that’s pretty good and as much as anyone can expect.
But, the requirements from the PARENTS ought to only be the same as God’s requirements. The rest of the preferences, I think, ought to be the young person’s him or herself.
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#108
I agree. A man will quickly get bored with an “air head” or someone who is not similar in intelligence and education, IMO. They are meant to be partners and “equally yoked” and I think that applies to many things.
Additionally, if they do decide to homeschool their kids, does he really want someone doing that who isn’t going to have the knowledge he’d like her to have?
(Not running down people with no education here, but just saying that having a couple that’s all on the same page is a nice thing.)
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And, of course, there’s the case where the woman may:
A) Never get married
B) Marry someone who dies or divorces her
Does this mother really want her grandchildren to fall into poverty should something happen to her son??
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While I think that “courtship” models sound nice in theory, I really wonder how well they can work in practice. I’ve never asked out a women who has lived in the same city as her parents. I do believe in the meeting her parents as soon as is practical, but at some level I think they need to be able to trust the judgment of their daughter. This might not have been such a problem if I didn’t wait until grad school to have my first date.
Unfortunately I’ve yet to meet my fiancee’s parents, which bothers me a lot, but they live over seas and visa issues would prohibit my fiancee from traveling with me, and languages issues would make it really hard to do by myself. We do hope to be able to make the trip soon. Of course I have spoken on the phone with them numerous times, although language does limit our conversation quite a bit. I’ve spent more time on the phone with her brother because of that.
I do wonder if I just run in much different circles than many posting her, but among the people I know there is much much larger problem with people not dating (courting/whatever) and not giving any potential romance a chance than with people going out with people whey obviously shouldn’t be. It really seems to me that dating needs to be encouraged not discouraged.
I’ll also say that I know of two recently married couples in which in the women initially wasn’t going give their future husband a chance but changed there mind after their parents suggested they reconsider after hearing their daughter’s description of man, even through the parents hadn’t met them yet (again, living in separate cities).
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Amy, what a fabulous idea. You and your husband know your daughter better than anyone. God has given you insight into what kind of a person would be the best life-long partner for your child. This is a list that is important for YOU and your family. My parents had a list for me. I fought it all the way. According to their list, he would be a geek! I dated and almost married the wrong guys several times. When I did meet my future husband, believe it or not, I could go down my parents’ checklist and he was exactly what they had prayed for for 30 years and we have been blissfully married for 17 years now. We will not all pray for the same qualities in our future sons and daughters-in-laws but I hope that, like Amy, we are praying for those qualities that God has revealed to us as important. What a great reminder that we need to be training and developing our children to be the answer to another parent’s prayer for their child.
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Privious post: “I doubt that very many people here really believe that humans survive their physical death.”
Keep saying it, Random. One day you may convince yourself.
Keep saying what? I forgot to put in the usual little crumb:
“Nobody really knows what is in the heart of another person.”
I don’t really know what is in your heart, KBells. Perhaps you really believe you will live after you die. Which leads to the next question I often ask:
Is it better to live in the (probably) delusion that you will live if you say the right prayers and follow the correct rules and guess the correct theology to believe in if it alleviates your death dismay, or is it better to try and see the world as it is and not live in a constant worry about being saved and a constant fussing and guilt about being religiously correct and a constant clinging to dubious beliefs such as creationism and unattractive prejudices such as homo hysteria.
Not a question that can be answered. There is no meter or gauge to evaluate this.
However, not picking on you in particular, the conduct and deportment of worldmagblog in general does not convey a bunch of happy campers.
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“…I really wonder how well they can work in practice.”
It’s cause courtship is weak sauce compared to prearranged marriages. Either prearrange or dont bother.
But seriously, maybe simply asking one’s daughter what she is looking for and why she wants to date is the easiest way to helping her, and not just a parent, establish rules and safeguards, especially before they are 18 and off to college.
If they havent built an understanding of discernment by the time they are 18 and off to college…good luck.
“You see, I’ve always thought that a good marriage will be between two people of a comparable intelligence and education, so that they can communicate on the same level. ”
If one is smart enough, he could easily communicate on the lesser’s level…
Intelligence is not what is important. Wisdom is.
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If one is smart enough, he could easily communicate on the lesser’s level…
******But not happily. As someone who has been married for almost 25 years, and who has seen a lot of marriages, I’m still going to agree with TJS Catlover on this. Too much of a difference in intelligence levels, and you will never be the partners God intended you to be.
You may love each other, but he (or she) will have to go to other people to get real conversational satisfaction, and real advice.
I don’t want my husband going to anyone else for that because I’m not capable of speaking at his level. Fortunately, I generally am, and vice versa.
I do not recommend that my children marry someone either far above them or far below them in IQ and education.
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#71
♥ V ♥ I ♥ C ♥ T ♥ O ♥ R ♥ I ♥ A ♥
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I might have missed it in the 122 comments above, but has anybody mentioned the fact that if Mom and Dad have raised their daughter well, they can let her scrutinize her beaux herself?
I have talked to my son and my daugthers about their standards and about good strategies for courting members of the opposite sex. They already know, at least they say that they do, that they need a person who is following Christ and who shows them respect. They already know that they want a person who is secure, responsible, and kind. I don’t think that we will have to intervene at all, as long as they do not make any major errors at too young an age.
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119. First of all as a believer in “assurance of salvation” I don’t worry about it. I do have guilt when I hurt another person. It helps me not to do it again. I don’t understand how a person can live and keep up with the the latest fad in what is right and what is wrong. For example; intolerance seems to be the chief sin among the secular crowd, but it is acceptable if the people you are being intolerant to is intolerant. Not to long ago defiance of authority was cool, now it is racist for some reason. I just can’t keep up so I will go with tried and true.
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For example; intolerance seems to be the chief sin among the secular crowd, but it is acceptable if the people you are being intolerant to is intolerant. Not to long ago defiance of authority was cool, now it is racist for some reason. I just can’t keep up so I will go with tried and true.
I have read this statement about four times trying to make sense of it, but not having success so far. Perhaps someone can translate it into English for me?
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As a college drop out married to a business master’s guy, we must be in trouble. Somebody should have told us thirty years ago so we could prepare.
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Lol, mumsee. My hubbie and I are totally incompatible also. Only God could have put us together and kept us together.
I agree with teaching your sons and daughters well, so they will choose well. Also, in developing a great realtionship with them, so they will want your advice. And for praying, praying and praying some more, both before they make their choice and after.
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I broke the news to my hubby, he just says it is a good thing as that must mean I have not enough confidence to leave him. As though that would ever happen.
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Aye, IQ and education are not necessarily the marks of wisdom.
Communication is a social skill. And usually it requires 99% listening and about 1% talking. Quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger as James says.
I dont expect my future wife to have to be able to discuss chemical reactor design or groundwater hydrology with me. I dont even expect her to discuss baseball.
I do expect her to be able to discuss God’s Word though, but the rest is just details.
For someone who wants a hi IQ in another person, then yes it would matter. But I dont think that extends to everyone.
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As for IQ levels, I think it depends a lot on personality and interests whether that becomes an issue or not.
When I was in my mid-20’s, I was trying to lose the arrogance I had always had about being smarter than just about everyone I knew. I knew that having a high IQ didn’t make me a better person than other people (as I had grown up assuming, though if I’d really thought about it perhaps I’d have realized it wasn’t so). But it took time and effort to work that change of attitude into how I related to people.
I had recently failed miserably at my efforts to be a high school teacher, and I had taken a job at housekeeping and then as a purchasing clerk. There was a guy about my age at the company where I worked who seemed interested in me. He was a Christian (though he went to a church that, even among fundamentalist churches, had a reputation for being ultraconservative and somewhat legalistic) and he seemed like a very good person.
My first inclination was to act friendly but not actually try to be friends, because he also clearly was not in the same class intellectually. But I was trying not to be that way, and he did work hard (the kind that would give calloused hands), and would probably be a loving and faithful husband. (Besides, it wasn’t like anyone else showed an interest in dating me.)
I accepted a date with him. He came and picked me up at the home of the family I lived with (they had sort of “adopted” me), and the “brothers” sort of checked him out as they would any guy who wanted to date a sister of theirs. I suppose we went out to eat, though I don’t remember anything except riding in the car with him, a long way (I guess he liked driving, and I think maybe he wanted to point out the town his family was from or something like that). We talked, though I don’t remember any specifics.
I came home reluctantly convinced that intellect did matter to me. He might be a wonderful man, but we didn’t seem to have many topics of conversation in common. I had a Masters degree, he hadn’t gone to college. I was interested in philosophy, theology, linguistics, literature (and not just in English), cross-cultural communication, economics, music, art… I don’t remember what his interests were, but they weren’t any of those.
My husband (of twenty years) and I do have trouble finding activities we both enjoy. I like hiking, he finds vigorous walking painful due to a back injury. We both like making things, but he paints pewter figurines, while I prefer to work on a scale that doesn’t require a visor with a built-in magnifying glass. He likes movies and computer games with a lot more violence than I am comfortable with.
But we both enjoy reading, and can discuss the books we read. I enjoy helping him with preparing sermons and Bible studies. We both have an interest in science and history and of course theology, though our specific interests in those areas differ. We both enjoy word games and puzzles, though I’m better at them than he is. (We each have our own crossword puzzle books, suited to our ability level.)
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Thorn,
Told you I found her for you, but, no, you want to find her yourself….
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Mumsee,
Whod you have in mind?
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As to IQ/ intelligence: When I was a teenager, I worked at McDonald’s, and management instituted a very stupid policy that had a hole a mile wide if one was good at math. (If I can summarize, when a customer ordered something, say a Big Mac and french fries, and then took off the french fries, we got penalized for the deletion because there was technically a possibility he could have been a friend of ours, we rang up his order and gave it to him, and then when no one was looking we took most of it off the register and only charged him for a small portion of it. The problem was, the managers decided we had to keep a low average of such deductions, not a low total. So my sister and I figured out that all we had to do if that happened was to make sure that the next time someone ordered a hamburger, we rang it up as a cheeseburger and then changed it to a hamburger–a ten cent difference lowered our average, and voila we had beat the system.) The problem was that our managers didn’t seem to understand our explanation of why that method wasn’t the best way to measure it. And both of us decided that when we married, we needed someone as smart as we were, because it would be hard to voluntarily submit to a man who not only would come up with bad ideas of how to do something, but whose brain couldn’t process a straightforward explanation of why that idea didn’t work.
If we explained, he understood, and we disagreed, that would be one thing, but if he simply couldn’t understand at all, that would be frustrating. I’ve seen wives in situations where the husband wants her to do something that’s actually dangerous, and he can’t even understand the explanation of why it’s dangerous. So for me personally, part of being able to respect my husband will be knowing that he’s smarter than I am, and if I can understand something, then he can too. Also, I enjoy intellectually fulfilling conversation, and I need a man who can enjoy it too and enjoy it with his wife.
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Thorn,
I do not give out that kind of info to just anybody, whatareyathinkin????????
But, if you are seriously looking, and interested in pursuing a possibility or two, you could email me at mumsee2002 at yahoo dot com.
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Thorn,
Wisdom is a separate issue. And, interests are a separate issue. I don’t understand computer the way my husband does, nor am I an engineer.
But, when we read a book, or watch a show, or listen to a sermon, or want to explain something, the other understands or is ABLE to understand. We “spark” each other and we sharpen each other. You don’t have that in a relationship of unequally yoked (in intelligence) people.
Let’s talk about it in ten years if you make the choice to marry someone far less intelligent than you are.
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All right, since we’re on the subject of marriage, this is a good place to ask a question. I have a friend who absolutely bristles at marriage being called a “partnership” or the spouses “partners.” She says that the husband is the leader, and they are not “equals.” She says that nowhere in Scripture is the word “partner” ever used of marriage (which seems to be true, but not necessarily relevant, esp. since it’s rarely used at all, and at least one use is Paul talking to those under his leadership–not his “equals”–as having a partnership with him in the Gospel).
I told her that if “partnership” implied equality and husbands and wives are in fact not equal, then we can’t use the unequally yoked passage for marriage–by the non-partnership model, husbands and wives are supposed to be “unequally” yoked. She said she thought that a yoke sometimes included a stronger and a weaker animal–but even if that is true, this passage says NOT to be thus unequally yoked.
Anyway, any thoughts, esp. any biblical ones, on either side of this issue?
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TRS – 135 –
“But, when we read a book, or watch a show, or listen to a sermon, or want to explain something, the other understands or is ABLE to understand. We “spark” each other and we sharpen each other. You don’t have that in a relationship of unequally yoked (in intelligence) people.”
You’re exactly right.
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Cheryl D,
My impression of the yoke metaphor in Scripture is that the important thing is that both go in the same direction. Having one stronger than the other would not constitute being “unequally yoked.” But having one try to go straight and the other try to go in another direction would be a big problem.
As for using the word partners, I don’t use it myself, but not for anything to do with anything about implied equality. Growing up, I heard it only in reference to business partnerships, so I never had a reason to associate it with marriage. These days it’s often used in reference to couples who are not husband and wife (either unmarried, or same sex partners). My father-in-law spent the last few years of his life with a woman he loved very much but did not marry for financial reasons (both had been widowed, and would lose survivor’s benefits if they remarried). She called herself his wife, since they had a “blessing” ceremony at an Episcopal church, but I never referred to her that way because they weren’t legally married. But when I referred to my father-in-law’s “partner” people thought I meant a business partner.
There are aspects to marriage in which the husband and wife are equal, and aspects in which they have different roles. To me, the primary meaning of partnership has to do with a joint effort, not equality, so I have no problems with the word in that regard.
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#136
The word “helpmeet” used in Genesis is equivalent to the word “partner” and is used by God in reference to Himself when He “partners” with man on something.
This word is used of the WOMAN in reference to her relationship to the man, and yet God uses it of Himself.
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I’m very wary when I meet someone and they are unable to converse and enjoy a simple conversation based on what is going on around them…. be it in a group, church, dinner or family gathering.
When someone continually brings up their university, degrees and whatever other achievements connected to their education, I’m not impressed – Someone’s abilities are soon recognized when discussing different topics,….. but if they are unable to express themselves in a social situation, it becomes evident that all the academics in the world are of little use IF they are unable to socialize with spontaneous conversation, relevant to the occasion.
When discussing intelligence/IQ etc., – it means very little IF the individual has no social skills, is unable to get along with others, or make friends. There is nothing brilliant about focusing on ones academic ability when they are unable to function in a social situation …. be that in their profession, school, church or any other situation.
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Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers
the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
Our help [is] in the name of the LORD,
who made heaven and earth.-Psalm 124:7,8
* * * * * *
Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD:
He is their help and their shield.-Psalm 115:11
* * * * * *
And my personal favorite:
I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills,
from whence cometh my help.
My help cometh from the LORD,
which made heaven and earth. -Psalms 121:1 and 2
The highlighted words are the same word “ezer” as used in the phrase “help meet” and the “meet” portion translates as “like” or “the same as” or “like unto” or “fit” or “suitable.”
So, the woman is created as a “suitable,” “like” helper (the same kind of helper that God is to us.)
She is the man’s partner.
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#138
Pauline, when I see animals yoked together, it is not just which direction they are moving that is important. If you have one that is significantly different than the other (slower, weaker, broader, etc.) the yoke will not fit. It requires a matching pair to comfortably plow and be yoked together.
This means that a husband and wife must me — more or less — equals to pull their yoke together. The husband may make the decision of direction (following the decision of the farmer — God — who is really in control), but the team must generally be an evenly matched pair or they will plow in circles no matter how well driven.
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And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:18
help meet Strongs Hebrew –
`ezer – ay’-zer
aid:–help
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. 1 Peter 3:7
vessel Strongs Greek –
skeuos – skyoo’-os
of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively (specially, a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband):–goods, sail, stuff, vessel.
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The passage below has nothing to do with intelligence/IQ – We are to be yoked with other Believers, that would include marriage, and close friendships.
Below is an excellent description:
“It is wrong for believers to join with the wicked and profane. The word unbeliever applies to all destitute of true faith. True pastors will caution their beloved children in the gospel, not to be unequally yoked. The fatal effects of neglecting Scripture precepts as to marriages clearly appear. Instead of a help meet, the union brings a snare. Those whose cross it is to be unequally united, without their wilful fault, may expect consolation under it; but when believers enter into such unions, against the express warnings of God’s word, they must expect must distress. The caution also extends to common conversation. We should not join in friendship and acquaintance with wicked men and unbelievers. Though we cannot wholly avoid seeing and hearing, and being with such, yet we should never choose them for friends.” Matthew Henry
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Amy, don’t take this personal, ‘kay?
This post didn’t set well with me when I read it yesterday. I think it is because of a few prevailing attitudes that come across in the letter.
1) It assumes that young men are the losers who have to measure up, and who probably can’t.
2) It assumes that the young woman is a total catch, without any need for refinement and growth, herself.
3) It doesn’t allow for age and the realism of the maturation that will come after age 18. Who amongst us here has not grown up a LOT since the late teenage years? IMO, homeschoolers (which I have been for 13 years,) have such unrealistic expectations of our young people. Sure, they can be mature, but they will still have maturation that needs to take place. No matter what we think, we can’t churn out perfect people.
4) It doesn’t allow for a young woman to make up her own mind about what she considers are attractive traits. If we raise our young women well, we shouldn’t worry very much about what kind of man she will attract. She’ll choose well. It all speaks of a lack of trust.
5) The old “cleaning my gun” cliche’ is really….cliche’. Old. We conservatives should get a new line.
6) You state that there are no hoops. You actually list quite a few. Think about it.
7) I’ve known several fine young men (not my own) who have been rejected in the homeschooling “courtship” world – because they didn’t meet one of similar criteria. It’s a devastating world we create for these wonderful young guys – there really is nothing they can do to measure up to deserve “super daughter.” These young kids come into relationships with such high expectations placed upon them. Result? A lot of young women will not find spouses. A lot of young men will not be able to jump through the hoops.
My own letter would begin something like, “Dear John. Since my daughter is interested in you, I am sure you are a fine young man. I look forward to getting to know you.”
My requirements would be two-fold. Love God and be a gentleman. Should the relationship develop into marriage, the request would be: Love God, and love your wife (my daughter) more than you love your own life. The rest will fall into line.
You know, real men do all kinds of things. They aren’t easily defined. My hubby does dishes and laundry, makes our bed, brings me coffee in bed. He simply loves me, and I simply love him. We’re crazy about each other, for life.
Hollymama8 – Five sons and three daughters.
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Hollyama8: I appreciate your input and agree. I know at least one homeschooling mom who bragged to me about how many young men he’d turned down for his daughter (7)! I really wondered what was wrong with her that she had such a problem picking someone with something to offer.
As my husband said, there is no one good enough his daughters and he wasn’t good enough for their mother either. Thank God we both grew in maturity since we were first married!
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Where are the guys? Or where are those kind of guys Amy describes in her letter? I have two wonderful God fearing daughters who have been praying for God fearing guys to come along, but nothing. It seems most are too busy being grown up boys and don’t have time to grow up to be adult men.
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You make a whole lot of sense Hollymama8
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One of my relatives home-schools her children, the eldest, a son who is going to be 20 this year has been encouraged NOT TO have dates, or to single out any girl. This young man is now in his second year of college, yet he has listened to his parents and steers clear of dating, rather going out in groups. If this young man were to come into my daughters life, I would not be happy, nor would my husband. His life is very planned, he doesn’t have much give or take as part of his MO. He is a wonderful young man in many ways, but the rigidity of his attitudes are not appealing.
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#144
Yes, the analogy is primarily about both “oxen” being Christians, but I think it applies to more universal things as well.
#145
Very well put.
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#149
I’ve seen it and am trying to avoid it in my sons (who are home schooled).
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AKONE,
Amen.
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For the record: we have one boy who dates and is unmarried at nearly 30, one boy who betrothed and has been married for years, one daughter who dates and waits, and one son who dated one woman and is married. And several under fourteen and we do not let them even consider anything because we are mean parents who care nothing for them and their happiness. It is a tough world out there. Interesting that the married ones married at under 21. Though I don’t suppose it says anything.
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As I see it; young men and women would be wise to choose a Christian college. I know, there are many who will poo poo this idea for a variety of reasons, some of which are “the school doesn’t specialize in my child’s choice of profession” – that might be true, but it WILL give your child a time to be mentored by adults and those of similar values to yours. Most likely there will be far more Believers on campus than un-believers.
A young individual can always transfer to another university after two years, having the foundation of a Christian college, room-mates, and all the things that Christian education offers .. those who are still very young. 17 and 18 year olds are vulnerable, especially if this is the first time they have been away from home, making THEIR OWN RULES. If they attend a regular university they are faced immediately with drinking, sex, foul mouths and a lot of other behavior which they are not used to when they lived at home. The pressure is very difficult.
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#154
Out of 11 colleges that my son applied to, only 3 were secular (but one of those is actually rather Conservative and Christian friendly – Hillsdale). So far, he hasn’t heard from most (one college accepted him, and one wait-listed him — both Christian).
But, I am starting to hope that the Christian colleges will be his choice even if the others do accept him (with the exception of Hillsdale, I really like it). It is nice to have a “name” college, but I figure that, since he will likely go to graduate school, that a “name” college can wait until then.
I absolutely DON’T want the Christian colleges that are all about rules and are too “fundamentalist” in reputation, but he has applied to some really good Christian colleges that have good reps even in secular circles, and yet still retain good values.
Overall, I tend to agree with your assessment.
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TRS – it’s difficult at best to make a choice. We can pray that your son will attend and bloom wherever the LORD leads him.
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Sorry folks, but hollymama8 misses the point of Amy’s letter. A young man must measure up and the daughter is a catch. What young woman truly knows what to look for in a man apart from her parents guidance? And why single out homeschoolers for their expectations when the average church going parent has done little to prepare their sons for marriage?
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AKOne –
Hollymama8 didn’t miss a thing. However you are missing the fact that both young people (young woman and young man) must measure up. There are certainly a great many young girls/women who don’t measure up, and I don’t mean knowing how to cook, clean, I mean every area and that includes how she dresses and her moral behavior. Let’s stop thinking the men are the problem, and not the women. One of the disasters is the ‘womens movement’ which has shoved men in the corner, taken away their leadership role, etc., but yet the banner continues –
YOU WROTE:…. “And why single out homeschoolers for their expectations when the average church going parent has done little to prepare their sons for marriage?”
And your proof is? –
I’m a pastor’s daughter, and I can assure you that Born Again Christians DO prepare their children of either sex for marriage. I have no clue where you attend church, or how many you have been affiliated with, or Christian schools, and summer camps, HOWEVER, kids from these families do have moral values that are not shared by those on a regular basis from none-Christian homes.
Your broad sweep with the kitchen broom as in “the average church going parent has done little to prepare their sons for marriage?” isn’t true, nor does it come close to being accurate.
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#157
I disagree. As I’ve said before, *I* knew what to look for in a young man, because I’d been taught all my life by example and directly what to look for. That is a parent’s job. Not making a list for the girl, but teaching her all along how to have the right list for herself.
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Hollymama8, wonderful, wonderful post! Thank you.
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And, I also agree with Victoria that I’ve met at least as many young girls as men who don’t “measure up.” I’ve seen girls from Christian families who chase guys, some AT CHURCH who wear clothing I wouldn’t allow my daughter to wear on the beach, who have never even considered what it means to have the husband as the head of the home (and I’m pretty liberal in that area, but I still believe it!), and who speak in a very worldly way.
The idea that men are all somehow “predators” and women are all angels is a very unfortunate one.
From a mother of two sons and one daughter!
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Which is why it is difficult for those girls who wait. And for those guys who do not want to have girls chasing them all over the place. A lot of girls think that is the new norm and it is okay. And a lot of parents think that is what their child is going to do so what can you do.
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Mumsee, it may not be OK, but it IS the “new norm.” It also is the new norm (for at least the last two decades, not sure how much before that) that even in circles where men do the asking, women are expected to “choose” the man they want and then flirt with him. He is no longer expected to determine for himself who is a godly woman or a good match for him; he is supposed to wait and see who is interested in him. So . . . some women like me, who refused to play that game, are still waiting for a man proactive enough to make the choice himself. The very act of taking the initiative and making his own choice goes a long way in showing he’s a leader.
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Cheryl D … you get it! Thank you!
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Ladies,
Women have ALWAYS shown interest and encourage men subtly. Always.
The old saying (and it was old when I was a girl), is:
“A man chases a woman until SHE catches him.”
There is nothing wrong with a woman showing modest interest and helping a guy to know that pursuit is worthwhile.
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A man who pursues a woman entirely without any interest shown on her part is, in my experience, not a leader, but a controlling type, possibly even a stalker.
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Expecting a man — even one who is a good, strong man in other areas — to pursue a female without her showing any initial interest to encourage him, immediately flushes away all the more reserved, shy, sweet and sensitive guys. (Ever see any of the John Wayne movies where the big, tough dude is tongue-tied and shy around the woman he finds interesting? This is not a new thing.)
Since my sons and my husband and my brother all fall under that category, you would be missing out on some great guys.
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One of the biggest “sweet” flirts I knew was my grandma. It was how she was taught to behave around men as a young girl (in the early 1900s.)
While girls didn’t used to allow *touching* (even of dress to man’s clothes), they have always shown modest interest to encourage the young beau.
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TRS, my point is not that she doesn’t respond with interest, but that she doesn’t initiate. There’s a difference. If nothing else, it means that if a guy I wouldn’t have considered initiates, I haven’t ruled him out by focusing on someone else–I see it as his job, and not mine, to do the choosing. And I too might tend to be shy around guys I’m interested in–so why does the burden fall on me anyway if both of us are a bit introverted and he’s the man (and thus supposed to be the leader)? It doesn’t–it falls on him. We’re in a society that doesn’t make many men, but that’s still what I want. And if he initiates, and I have any interest at all, I will respond. (I’ve had men who weren’t my first choice but whose interest in me meant I considered them anyway. In one of those cases, we were heading different directions–literally–and nothing ever came of it, but his discreet interest in me was what made me even consider him.)
For what it’s worth, I’ve been told more than once that I smile more than most people do–so I may not throw myself at his feet or wink at him, but if he catches my eye and I smile at him, he should at least feel safe enough to show interest, right? If he needs more than that, he isn’t man enough for me anyway, and can move on. The key is that I don’t choose one guy to smile at MORE than I’ll smile at others. (I may have one I smile at LESS–if a guy seems unsafe to me, I will be polite but no more. I’ll speak with him, but I won’t smile at him.) But it isn’t my job as a woman to say, “I’m interested in him, and therefore I’ll smile at him, and if he’s interested too, he’ll come after me.”
In other words, if he’s interested enough to look at me, he’ll get a smile, interested enough to speak with me, I’ll talk with him. If he can’t get up enough courage even to look at me, then no, I won’t feel bad if I don’t walk up to him and start a conversation. I need a man with SOME initiative. I tried the “show him I’m interested because he’s too shy” thing when I was 20. Been there, done that. And I realized I didn’t need to go there, didn’t need a man that shy.
And yes, I know that this has kept me single, because 25-year-old men don’t usually have even that much initiative, and yes, I’m OK with that. I have a fairly strong personality, and if his isn’t stronger, strong enough to initiate at least a little, then I’m better off staying single. But now that I’m older and the men I know aren’t little boys anymore, I think my chances of finding a real man are actually greater than they are when I was in my twenties.
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In my last job, I worked with a lot of people from India. They confirmed that a lot of marriages in India are “arranged” marriages. It sounded to me as if that method works about as well or poorly as the American one of romance and courtship. This post and topic seems to try to find a strange hybrid.
To be fair to the Indians, they explained to me that “arranged” usually does not mean “forced.” It usually is just a system of putting people together who might fit certain criteria and letting them decide if it will run up the flag pole. Not that different from what this topic is talking about, really.
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#169
I have a very strong personality too. One of the things that attracted me to my husband is that he seemed to be able to handle that and be strong too.
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What a wonderful thread. Amy- loved the letter. We have one daughter and 6 sons. Our daughter was our first child to go through the teen years. DD would tell young men who wanted to date her would have to go ask her Dad first. She loved telling potential dates that her dad could hit a moving target at 300 yards! He had numerous awards for expert markesmen. She figured that any guy who wanted to date her had to have the courage to ask her Dad while he was cleaning a gun! She said that kept things very easy for her. She also wanted us to step in when some guy asked who she knew would not be appropriate wanted to date her. She would tell him we said no, using us as an excuse till she got good enough to say it herself. She ended up marrying a guy from the Christain college she went to. He was petrified to meet us after the 300 yard comment (which of course was an exaggeration) Out of respect for dh the future son in law came and asked permission. We did have concerns and we shared them and they worked on them which showed us character. Happily married for 11 years. Eldest son courted and married a wonderful woman. 2nd son dated the girl he married.
Fast forward and now 17 year old will wait till he is ready to marry. Lots of great conversations. Our concern is will there be any girls who wait and truly love the LORD.
By the way, hard work is important great work ethic is important for both.
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Jiller – - I don’t know where you live, or how those in your area treat others, but where I live that attitude, IF it were a true picture ….. would be insulting to any young man wanting to take a young woman out to dinner or a sandwich. If a son of mine were to be put to that sort of ‘movie script test’ we would advice strongly to stay away. Guns, or the idea/attitude behind that sort of scene isn’t healthy, nor should it be part of asking a young girl out.
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We joke about it around here, but I agree with Victoria if it were at all serious.
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Victoria- take a deep breath my friend it was always a joke,
nothing more.
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Jiller, if it’s only a joke, then make that plain – taking a deep breath is not the way to choose the truth when someone makes a statement as you outlined in your post.
Why don’t you tell us (while taking several deep breaths) what part of your post wasn’t a joke and which was a joke? Or did you mix it all together? LOL
That is a very precise statement, ….. if it’s just a joke -
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As a young(ish?) man considering looking for a wife I find this topic intriguing, and while it’s nice to hear a lot of mothers’ opinions I haven’t heard from any fathers yet.
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John V,
That’s because we’re all home cleaning our guns.
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Sounds good Rondu, although it’s spring so hunting season is a ways off! My bow is at the ready, though.
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RONDU,
I could not believe my eyes when I saw you JOKING about such a serious thing.
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Mumsee,
Forgive me.
I’ve had a long day, I’m tired and I’m headed for bed.
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Well, well, we have Amy on #72 and a few others who, after their remarks, have decided it’s either “silly” or a “joke” –
When things go side-ways it’s always easy to take the ‘humorous’ way out, and ‘joke’ the rest -
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Victoria,
We have discussed before that human beings often make light of serious topics to take the pressure off. I live in a heavily armed part of the world, we do not take guns lightly but we do joke about them. Not everybody does, and that is okay.
Oh, alright, Rondu, sleep well, and keep your powder dry.
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Oh Mumsee, I will remember that from now on, I promise… it’s all a big joke, … if things don’t go well, or if remarks are made and one wishes they didn’t make them, they just joke it off.
I don’t come from a background… either my family, socially, or academic and most of all Biblical which makes humor and jokes about serious matters. There is no pressure to ‘take off’ in discussing serious topics, unless of course those who make faux pas and them pass them off as a joke or humor, when it all fails is obvious. I do understand everyone’s friends rushing to the side of anyone who does this sort of thing.
So it’s all a big joke? – and “pressure” is the given reason for all the hoopla over dating?
With all the ’stories’ which are posted on this blog as serious situations, one wonders after reading a number of posts, and keeping track of the circumstances, and time frames, who’s fooling whom?
I was very interested in the response I would receive regarding my posts.
The jokes on some of the posters!
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Victoria, no insult intended, but your humor is different than some of ours . . . so if we don’t all “get” the same jokes, that’s OK. It doesn’t mean they weren’t jokes at all, and it doesn’t even mean they weren’t really funny. It just means they weren’t funny to you. It’s OK. I’m sure sometimes it works the other way too, that you’d say something funny and it doesn’t seem funny to some of the people who hear it.
As to the question of whether there are more “quality” men or quality women around these days, may I add an observation from the world of the single female (which may or may not be accurate, may or may not be universal)? It seems to me that currently we have a lot larger percentage of single Christian women who want to get married in the next two years or next five years than of men who do. Even among those men who want to get married, who are past the age of 25 or so, it seems like most of them have the attitude of “I probably want to get married someday, when I get around to it.” Meanwhile women are saying, “This man looks good; that one might be good; wonder if that other one might be interested in me?” and wait around in vain for any of them to show any interest at all (in them, but also in anyone else).
I heard on a tape tonight something about not raising our daughters correctly, because more of them are staying single longer (and this from a man who believes that the man takes the lead in a “patriarchal” way)–and I wanted to say, “You’re not talking to me, sir. Talk to the men. In my world the women are willing; it’s the men who aren’t.”
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“Let’s talk about it in ten years if you make the choice to marry someone far less intelligent than you are.”
You mean far less able to communicate. I have a friend who is a car salesman, with no college degree who is very good at what he does. He communicates quite well, and way better than I do.
He may not have my IQ or education, but he’s not stupid.
It doesnt take alot of intelligence to discuss movies/books/sermons. Most people who speak a common language can do this easily.
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Mumsee,
I’ll try and send an email to ya before i leave for Scotland thi friday.
Thanks
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I ‘get jokes’ make no mistake, …. I also ‘get it’ when people make BIG ‘faux pas’ and then try and pass them off as a humor, when in fact they were mistakes which are turned around to SAVE FACE.
Men and women are no so different – men who are believers are drawn to women that are warm, fun, speak honestly, those who have the same focus in their lives, but most of all love the LORD with all their heart.
One of the things I’ve noticed with real women and men who are serious about the people they date is this; they are looking for someone who is STRAIGT-FORWARD, who DO NOT PLAY GAMES.
The games on the blog which can be manipulated like a piece of clay aren’t the REAL DEAL -
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Post #188 should read:
“One of the things I’ve noticed with real women and men who are serious about the people they date is this; they are looking for someone who is STRAIGHT -FORWARD, who DO NOT PLAY GAMES.”
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I’m not offended by such humor usually, but I don’t particularly like it either–and it definitely can be humor, not a ‘faux pax’. It’s very common humor in the South and the mid-west. That being said, unless your daughter is wild, or brings home wild young men, I don’t see the value in it. And if the young people are wild, then there is probably more than a little threat intended–not humor.
I thouhgt JohnV’s comment in #179 was a mature response to this kind of humor. The response assumes the guns are for hunting only—and he’s already prepared–not intimidated. A good man should not have to be intimidated by a young woman’s parents. I much prefer to rely on maturity, not threats. The humor is usually a cultural thing, and not to everyone’s taste.
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Well, I am glad to hear that some folk have a sense of humor and can find humor in most things. Life would be awfully harsh without it. I am happy to report that in this area, with a high possession of firearms, we have a very much lower incidence of misuse of firearms than many areas. Though we joke about it. It is nice to have confidence that those with the guns are responsible in their useage. There are exceptions of course, but knowing that the armed responsible outweigh the irresponsible is a nice thing.
As far as the thread: our system is set up so those looking for the right reasons are far in the minority. I believe, with the do it yourself attitude, it is more difficult for serious folks to find their match. Not impossible, mind you, but more difficult. And the teaching of the day is counter to what those serious folk are expecting. Unlike days of yore when most were looking for a lifetime mate.
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Thorn, Glad to hear you are going to be able to make the trip! Enjoy! If you email, and spam does not get you, I will reply. That does not mean I have the answers, just a couple of suggestions to consider.
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BTW, Victoria, if you were to tell people, “This is something we joke about in California,” we’d believe you; we all know you know more about California than the rest of us do, and even if we didn’t find the humor funny, we’d believe you that it was regional humor. The humor in the South is a bit different, and you probably wouldn’t like it down here. That’s OK. Just give us the benefit of the doubt when we say something actually is a local joke; you don’t have to find it funny.
As to being straightforward, absolutely. It’s hard, though, because modern dating has a whole list of “games” people play. I don’t play the games, but naturally enough guys are assuming that a girl does. So things can be misread, as “that’s just a game.” It encouraged me recently when one of my female friends told me that one of the things she most likes about me is that I don’t play games–she never has to decipher “what Cheryl ‘meant’ by something,” because I meant what I said and not something else. She was encouraging me not to second-guess my choice not to play the games, because she said that’s one thing that she likes best about me–it’s easier to converse with me than with someone who isn’t as straightforward (though of course I try to be kind while being straightforward, and not bludgeon my way through with “Hey, I’m just telling the truth here!”).
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Well, I am glad to hear that some folk have a sense of humor and can find humor in most things. Life would be awfully harsh without it,
That’s the truth, Mumsee. I know I’ve laughed at some of the most awful things…sometimes because there just weren’t any tears left to cry.
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Amen, DJ, and that is the way with many of the kids we get. They fall and hurt themselves and laugh. Things happen that would have any of the rest of us in tears but they laugh. Part of our job is to help them to develop appropriate emotion. They have seen tough times and laughter helps them get through it all.
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I love it. I will be showing this to my 3 boys, ages 25,22 and 15. It will help them to see another reason that their parents are so “old fashioned”. This next generation will begin to live by standards when we expect it of them. Having all boys, I would like to point out the need for parents to screen the young girls in this same way. Many of the young girls I have come into contact with have not been taught any morals, standards and values, and are therefore not worthy of my fine young men. Get to work out there parents! This is our job.
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All the talk regarding guns, their uses, and then joking (BLUSTERING) about guns is a sham. I have countless relatives in the mid-west, ….. guns were never discussed as a joke. My father was born in Europe, he hunted a great deal, his guns were never displayed nor did he bring them out for any other reason that to get ready for a hunting trip. Many of the men in my family own guns, and again use them for hunting, they don’t talk about guns, or joke about them, NO MATTER what part of the country they live in.
The only people I have come in contact with who make boastful statements about guns are those who have little else to contribute, and enjoy making themselves important by how fully armed they are….. I’m not impressed, it’s nothing but ‘big shot’ macho talk, – - OR, it is by someone who is trying to intimidate others by their weapons, and how many they own, and how well they perceive they can use them. I stay away from blow-hearts, ….. one never knows what they might do, or why they need to blow about their ownership of weapons.
I have traveled a great deal all my life since childhood, ….. not a novice in the big city, or the countryside, …….. guns were, nor are they now, ever used in jokes to make a point. SO….. all the excuses used to support the cause have no effect on me, I don’t associate with those who VERBALLY brandish guns, or those who support others who do.
Guns aren’t a joke – one of the reasons this country has had endless discussion about weapons is the high rate of crime, the horrific mass killings in schools – no one takes the talk of guns as a mild form of entertaining humor, it’s a serious subject.
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The big reason guns are a problem in the hands of kids is because adults don’t bring them out and work with the kids on them. The kids do not learn what they really are.
Well, Victoria, apparently, there are some people you have never met. But that is okay as you would never associate with them.
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When adults make macho remarks about guns, and their use of them, they aren’t teaching anything to anyone, their doing what is defined as irresponsible behavior, making statements which could result badly.
Children can be taught how to use a gun etc., and yes, kids DO KNOW what they are, but having said that, the adults who teach the proper use of guns, need to temper their speech when discussing guns, and the intended use, it’s not a joke.
I haven’t met everyone, nor has anyone else, however I do know that responsible people don’t VERBALLY brandish guns as a joke or humor, unless of course they can’t communicate or intimidate somoeone otherwise, kids pick that behavior up very quickly.
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Oh boy.
200!
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As a young man of 17, I would caution parents against thinking of me as a piece of meat to be inspected. While I respect your love for your daughters, and agree that there should be standards to be met, I feel that I am being reduced to a manikin. Please remember that I am a human being too, and may not be an archetype of perfection. Discriminating against me based on any single external factor is foolish and ineffective. Try to be a little more open. [:
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89Daniel
I agree with you, and so would most people my husband and I know. You aren’t a piece of meat and shouldn’t be treated as such, EVEN in jest. It is just this sort of thing which leaves young men to believe they don’t measure up, and need to be tested. I wonder how many parents have reared their daughters for the same sort of test that are inflicted upon young Christian men?
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I hang out with a lot of irresponsible people. They are nice. They are hardworking, industrious, caring people. Sadly, irresponsible as well. But that is okay. I guess you could say they work hard and play hard. They enjoy life. They teach gun safety. They arrest drunk drivers and enter the homes of meth manufacturers. They put their lives on the line overseas. And they would never ever hurt somebody with word or action unless it was in defense of life. But, I don’t know if they spend much time on blogs. But there you have it. I am glad I know the people I know.
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Guns aren’t a joke – one of the reasons this country has had endless discussion about weapons is the high rate of crime, the horrific mass killings in schools
That is more true than we’d like to admit sometimes. Just this afternoon a friend informed me that there would be armed guards at their workplace tomorrow because a former employee who is suing, has made a violent threat. The guy denied it, but there will be armed guards just the same. And the government will have to pay for it because of the location.
Gun humor is best kept for friends and people who you know share that sense of humor.
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Mumsee, I’m glad I know the people I know too. In fact, I like meeting new people, even people who don’t always think like I do. Makes the world a more interesting place, don’t you think?
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89Daniel,
I don’t think she has suggested any unrealistic measurings. She wants her daughters married to men capable of providing and guiding. That does not mean they are there yet, but capable of it. They know that hard work in whatever vein is important. They know that it is important to have more in life than work. And most important, a desire to know God. Really, not such a tough list.
On the other side, I would hope the daughters are being taught to be hard workers with the ability to pursue their own interests and a desire to know God. If these two people come together with an understanding of commitment, they should do well.
The problem we are seeing is the finding. Men raised to look for women who have waited are not finding that so much, rather they are inundated with requests for dates and offers of “Stuff”. Women who are raised to wait, seem to be waiting until they get tired of waiting and then try to enter the other world or stay waiting.
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Any law abiding citizen, police officer or authority can do all you have mentioned above, and MORE, and still at the same time, control their need to brandish guns VERBALLY to intimidate another individual – that is the difference.
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DJ,
The world would be very boring if we were all alike, that is for sure. I was raised with no guns and no knowledge of guns. I was somewhat fearful of people with guns. Life has changed and I am glad to have met the people I have met and glad I did not limit the meeting with my own prejudices and perhaps even more glad that they did not limit theirs with their own prejudices of people like me!
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You are right, Victoria.
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(but I chuckled at the part about the m-16s, and 300 yards, and cleaning our guns, and hunting season: call me irresponsible)
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If men and women are really interested in marriage, they will take steps to meet young men or older, depending on their age. There are a number of good ways to meet people. Of course church is the first place, as that is where one should be.
1. Attend other churches which have interest groups, and then join in.
2. Offer your time to your local hospital – VOLUNTEER – there are all sorts of ways you can help.
3. Volunteer in other areas that might interest you. Both sexes are attracted to people who are busy, who have a life that has meaning and focus.
Don’t spend your time sitting at home reading and talking on the phone, GET OUT, do something constructive with your time, which will put you in proximity to the male/females you would like to meet.
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Or, like me, one could get a job at Circle K and marry the first long haired, smoking, drinking, leather jacket wearing, motorcycle riding ex Navy guy that came along and expressed interest.
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Well of course if you weren’t married at the moment. But that wasn’t what was meant by my post, INSTEAD you take the jokester approach – that’s more of a reflection upon your choice.
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I’m sure many of those sorts of marriages work out EVENTUALLY!
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Yep.
Actually, Victoria, that is not the jokester approach, it is fact.
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I’m sure it is – and if it works, then by all means everyone who believes it, and it works should implement it into their children’s dating education – Can’t argue with success! HOWEVER, it certainly isn’t the road I would take.
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And not the road I regularly recommend, but I have known too many young people who have tried your list and not found their mate. So there must be more to it.
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Mumsee, hilarious! Actually, if a woman trusts God to bring the right man she doesn’t need to worry about it a lot. I know a lady who was practically a recluse (didn’t even make it to church more than half the time, pretty much just went to the grocery store if she needed to) but had two boyfriends she had to decide between (and other men she was fending off). She was in her seventies, when single women far outnumber single men, but she had more men than she could handle (and I don’t mean she was sleeping with them), though she barely left the house. She had to turn down one to marry the other.
Married people often tell single women “how to meet men,” but the reality is that every married woman has a different story because every one met her husband a different way. If God has a husband lined up for me, He isn’t fretting about how He’s going to get us to finally meet, and I see no need for me to fret or rearrange my life either.
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In my situation, I had nothing to get the attention of the church goers. But my guy saw me as somebody to walk the Oregon trail with. Church goers were not looking for that. And, from what I have seen, they are still missing the boat on some really terrific women. Just as the women are missing out on some great guys.
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Maybe it doesn’t work they way they would like it to, BUT if they are volunteering they are making good use of their time. People who aren’t married have extra time to spend on weekends and after office hours on something other than staying home.
Sometimes it takes TIME. The “more to it” could also mean that it wasn’t in GOD’s plan that they marry – that would be difficult, but it might be the answer. Praying to GOD asking HIM to take away the longing for a mate which doesn’t seem to be in HIS plan would be good -
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Why do Christian men and women join so called Christian internet dating services? – I’ve always wondered why anyone would do that?
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Those are also good points. And a lot of the singles I know are reaching or have reached that point of contentment in Him.
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Mumsee, that seems to be the only true answer – I do feel for people who long for a mate and don’t find them.
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Because they feel strongly that they should be getting married (God mentions it is better to marry than to burn) and there is nobody around to fit the bill and apparently not going to be one.
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Mumsee, I still go back to ‘volunteer’ work as a way of helping others, and at the same time being able to be an example as a Believer, and perhaps meet other people as friends, not just a ‘mate looking search’ but real friends.
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That is the whole point – If there is nobody around, then they aren’t tempted to have sex, they aren’t dating anyone to begin with, they are still trying to find someone to date. Yes it is mentioned in the Bible to marry rather than burn, but look at that passage in context:
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 1 Corinthians 7:9
This is in connection to a couple who cannot contain their passion, and that would mean sexual -
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Volunteering is a great way to meet likeminded people, that is for sure. And an opportunity to serve the risen Savior at the same time!
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I posted to you above Mumsee #226, we posted at the same time.
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Ideally, we would not live in a world that pushes couples. But we do. And people are constantly trying to put people in relationships (I step into that sometimes, right or wrong, between God and me)so it stands to reason, people will be thinking of that a great deal and wanting to make sure they are not missing the direction of God.
As we all know I am quite negative on a lot of computer use but do look at it as a tool. In the past, families did the working out the plan. As I recall, a servant traveled many miles to pick up a woman for his boss, sight unseen, conversation unbegun, but God guided. Weird but it worked.
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“Why do Christian men and women join so called Christian internet dating services? – I’ve always wondered why anyone would do that?”
More options outside your general circle. Although, it has so far never worked for me. Not even a date.
I’m not sure why women on there are so picky…
But anyway, I have usually only tried a christian dating site, but recently a friend of mine just did Match.com, met a girl locally he wouldnt have otherwise, got engaged in under 2 months and is now married…go figure
So as Cheryl said, it just happens when it happens, and everyone’s story is different. It’s frustrating that way sometimes, but only Staples has the “easy button”.
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Mumsee – - you forgot to mention that we were engaged in 5 days.
Also, I hope I never have to ‘more-than verbally’ brandish a weapon. But, alas, I hope I’m up to the task if necessary.
I just wonder where you draw the line on which topics can be the subjects can be taken lightly and which ones require ‘a stone face’.
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Yes Mumsee what you post in paragraph two was the norm many years ago, but that doesn’t exist today in this country or many other countries in Europe, etc. What we concern ourselves with is, here and now –
I am very negative regarding computer dating – there will always be the those who stand and say how terrific it is since they have had success, or so they say -
I don’t always believe what I read/hear, especially on blogs from those who are not consistent with their lives, as they have posted over a period of time – often telling stories which contradict their past story and posts, sometimes recent, and sometimes a year or more ago – Having said that, I would not encourage anyone to get involved with internet dating of any kind.
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Thorn, I wish you the best. I’ve read lots of your posts, and believe you are serious in seeking a wife that would honor God.
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I would. We had a friend who was seriously looking. Could not find her. Went to Saudi Arabia (she was not there either). Went on a Christian dating site, met her, found out they were in the same state, then same city, then same church! Fortunately for all of us, God appears to have a sense of humor far greater than ours. I say, let God use the tools He chooses to use, don’t limit Him.
(did I describe you to a tee my beloved?)
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Idahomike
The internet/blogs are not always a place one can ’see’ what someone means – there are no eyes to see, or facial expressions, no body language – the only thing we can use are smiley faces, etc., which are not the best, but all we have.
I wouldn’t get involved in a subject such as this IF it were a joke, it’s not my style. I love to laugh, tease, and have fun, ( I can send you a pair of hot pink high heels, ask your wife about that nutty subject that lasted a whole week after Lynn became ill) but I don’t include really serious subjects, the Word of God. You can check out my bio below under “Meet the Regulars” that would give you some idea of who I am.
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Not to sound snobby or know-it-all, but I’ve been chided for pretending to know a little bit of something about children even though I don’t have any, and taking part in other subjects outside my presumed expertise, so since I seem to be the only single woman on this thread right now, maybe I’ll be seen as someone who can actually speak to the subject.
First off, those of you who have been married a quarter century or so, it’s a totally different world out there now. And that goes double if you married in your twenties, that the world of the forty-something single is a different universe than your own dating world when you were in your twenties thirty years ago.
Why do people try Internet dating? Two big reasons I can think of: (1) We know several people who’ve done it successfully (and, in fact, if we know anyone 30-60 who has gotten married in the last ten years, probably this is how they met), and (2) In the “real” (non-virtual) world, nearly everyone we know is married or divorced unbiblically, and the singles we know aren’t dating. In other words, the Internet is about the only place one can find singles who actually want to date. It may be unfortunate, and it requires great caution, but it is reality today. from what I understand, singles groups end up being places where singles go but don’t date each other–so that’s not an answer. (And for me, I’d rather be with a mix of people, not just singles, so if singles aren’t dating anyway, what’s the point?)
As for the question of whether one should stay home or keep a really active social life, that’s a balance too. (I volunteer, but not in ways I’m likely to meet men, and I attend events where I probably won’t . . . I don’t plan my life around meeting men.) A few months ago I edited Mary Kassian, a woman who writes on issues of godly womanhood in an ungodly culture. She made a convincing case that even a single woman should be “home-centered” and not running somewhere new every night–even with the “excuse” of trying to find a husband. Again, it seems to me that the godly woman shouldn’t think it’s wrong ever to go where there might be single men, but she shouldn’t be arranging her whole life around finding a husband–it is the man’s job to find her. But the godly woman over 40 who doesn’t flirt doesn’t exactly get asked out every week in real life.
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Wow!! All of this discussion over an article that simply and humorously was attempting to encourage young men to have high standards, morals and values. I think this article also was an encouragement for young women to set the bar higher for themselves when dating. God knows that our young people need all the encouragement they can get to set and attain higher goals for themselves. The TV does all it can to make males especially, but also females, a bumbling blob of uncontrollable hormones. I for one, am doing all I can to help my young men become great catches for all of those girls out there who are busy doing the same thing. If we parents will do our part, how or when they meet won’t really be the issue. They’ll figure out how to meet!
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Cheryl D.
I feel for you single Christian girls that cannot find much in the way of mature single Christian guys. I remember hearing (or more likely reading) about the feminizing of the Church a few years back and remember that it explained somewhat why few men (young or old) are active in many churches. The problem is that I haven’t really seen many changes to make most churches enticing to men.
I do have a friend that is now a missionary pastor in the Los Angeles area and one of the things that is a drawing for the men and boys is to go out into some rural area shooting their guns. It is a great way for some male bonding and also to teach a healthy respect for guns. And yes, Victoria, we sometimes joke about guns. (I even did the cleaning my gun gig for my son in law.) But if you try to take all of the manliness out of the men and boys, most will just drift away.
I think that part of the reason is that few women seem to be looking for the leadership qualities in a man that you describe. Many women have their idea of how the task should be done and will alienate a man who tries to lead. If a women tries to take leadership, a man will usually not oppose her. Often, though, he will not follow either and become uninvolved.
Cheryl, I see a lot of positives in the impression I get of you and your approach to life and meeting guys. I pray that God will bring you a comparable man into your life.
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Thanks, Fuzzyface.
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Be encouraged and be assured God is working in both men and women.
God raises His servants in every generation.
There are men hungry for the Word of God, and very sharp.
They’ll dig in and study and grow.
Their adventuresome, rising-to-the-challenge, ways have given rise to many a varied ministry, and many missions.
“uninvolved” with napkin folding, at the church ice-cream social, may not be their cup of tea.
“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Ro 11:4-5)
And the women?
“Hey! Those guys over there are really serious for Christ. Save me a seat!”
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A couple of other things from a dad of 3 boys and 1 girl:
- Say yes sir and yes mam, no sir and no mam. No it is not old-fashioned, it is respectful.
- Say thank you and show gratitude for even small things
- Don’t act like your anxious to get away from me
- Say only nice thigs aboutyour own family; siblings included.
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OK, I actually know the author’s daughter, and I have to jump in here and say that she actually IS a catch. It’s awfully presumptuous to assume that she might not be. That’s all.
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