Christianity is Jewish
I realize there are various and valid explanations for how Christianity ended up—at least on the surface—bearing so little resemblance to its Jewish roots. Nonetheless, I sometimes wonder why, for example, Christian children aren’t taught more about what Jesus’ life as a Jewish boy would have been like. That’s part of the reason I so enjoyed Anne Rice’s book Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt. It was historical fiction, carefully researched, which painted a picture of Jesus as a child, deeply immersed in Jewish life.
I’ve just read another book of historical fiction set in first century Judea that sheds further light on the Jewish life and customs Jesus would have experienced. Witness, by E. G. Lewis, tells the story of a young shepherdess named Rivkah, whose life intersects with Jesus, or Yeshua, as he would have been called.
With her widowed father, Rivkah lives in Bethlehem. When lambing season begins, she and Abba, as she calls her father, along with the other shepherds, spend their nights in the field guarding their sheep. As the first watch of the night begins, the men chant Ma’ariv, or evening prayers. Rivkah is awakened by what she thinks is a falling star. “Struck dumb with fright, we sat like statues, our faces turned to the sky. What at first appeared to be a falling star gradually took shape. The light came from the creature at the center of it.” Fear gave way to peace upon hearing the creature’s words: “Do not be afraid.” Rivkah and the other shepherds listen as the angel tells them about the Savior whom they will find “wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.”
We don’t think too much about what those shepherds experienced. But we know they went to seek out the babe, as the angel had told them. As Witness tells it, the shepherds go into town and find Yosef. “The hand of the Most High urged us to leave our flocks and come to Bethlehem,” they tell him. “We came without understanding why.”
They didn’t need to understand why. Worship and prayer were an integral part of their daily lives, as Witness makes abundantly clear. So they knew the hand of God when it was shown to them.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top209 Comments to “Christianity is Jewish”
“Christianity is Jewish”?
—-
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (Joh 17:5)
The Son of God was Jewish “before the world was”?
Report comment to moderator
Maybe Abraham was Jewish??
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Ga 3:28)
Report comment to moderator
“And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Ga 3:29)
(addendum vs.)
Report comment to moderator
Everyone here is Jewish, except me. Of course, if I had been born in Germany a century and a half ago, as the Ikenbergs were, the question would not have been up to me to decide.
I am glad that Ann Rice is on the case of telling us about Jesus. She is an expert on myth. Also, the myths of 2,000 years ago are so yesterday, so it is time to revanpt them.
Finally, we really know very little about Jesus. Did he really exist? [Pause inserted for everyone here to spout the usual stuff about how many people testified in front of Palestinian notaries that they met him after he rose from the dead.] What did he really say? How did Paul come to speak for him?
Report comment to moderator
The Ikenbergs were the Jewish parents of my childhood best friend, Danny. Born in Germany, they got out while the going was good. They told my parents, “A lot of Jews in Germany admired Hitler. They thought the only thing wrong with him was that he kept saying bad things about the Jews. Otherwise, he was great.”
Report comment to moderator
Ow Random,
That kind of stings, doesn’t it?
Report comment to moderator
random,
So why the potential for Hilter to do evil?
You, as an atheist, would surely defend “his”, “chemical-onlyism”.
Correct?
Was it bad blood chemistry? Sodium, calcium, hemoglobin? Bad coffee?
You can’t have it both ways.
What is wrong WITHIN the souls of men, including atheists?
“For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me].” (Ac 26:21)
:-O
Report comment to moderator
I’m not sure that the Apostle Paul would agree with Ms. Segelstein’s title.
Report comment to moderator
The author is partly right. Christianity is a mishmash of the ancient Jewish legends of the coming military messiah who would defeat the Jews’ enemies and reign as king, and the myths of the dying and resurrecting sun god, borrowed from Greek, Egyptian, and other cultures.
Was Jesus of Nazareth an actual historical person? Almost certainly not. The paucity of evidence for his existence is nothing less than astonishing.
Report comment to moderator
It depends on how you look at it. Jesus was indeed Jewish, but his fellow Jews failed to recognize who he was and move on along with him. But that’s what happens when you focus on the past and not the future.
Report comment to moderator
Anne Rice writes about the life of God the Son when she doesn’t have a clue as to what she’s talking about, its not in the Word of God – If God wanted us to KNOW more about HIS Son HE would have seen to it that we would have the information-
This is a classic example of how ‘traditions’ – ‘false teaching’ etc start – its a bad seed that germinates – Satan puts anything in the place of the real JESUS CHRIST – it’s a counterfeit, and much of the world is hungry for anything that tickles their ears, even if they KNOW down in their heart and soul its heresy.
If Believers can read this tripe, call it entertainment, whatever you like, they will read anything, and excuse the reasons.
Another portion of Scripture:
Report comment to moderator
I don’t read Anne Rice. I think there’s something wrong with her.
Report comment to moderator
NJL – I agree. She takes off on Christ’s life with false stories -
Report comment to moderator
Categorical difference: Jews don’t believe that humans are born evil.
Report comment to moderator
mcdivitt,
AFTER you become a NEW CREATION in Christ, your Biblical commentary will begin to rise above zero value.
Read “The Two Babylons” by Hislop for an intro on Babylonian and Egyptian nonsense.
Of course, the Bible is infallible.
He who inspired, preserved.
Just because a fallen-sinner historian-ite needed a topic to make himself popular at the community college, doesn’t mean he has anything of value to contribute.
God doesn’t need the permission of historian-ites, or high priests, to provide HIS Living Word…
“Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.” (Lu 3:2)
And remember, Rabbinical criticism of the NT is, as usual, N/A.
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
Do the Jews believe that the book of Genesis is part of God’s infallible revelation?
Report comment to moderator
mcdivitt,
AFTER you become a NEW CREATION in Christ, your Biblical commentary will begin to rise above zero value.
Sorry, 2Cents, you’re a little late for that party. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and everything. Spent more than half my life as a “new creation in Christ”, so no worries there.
I read Two Babylons a long, long time ago. I accepted Hislop’s view that Roman Catholicism was shot through with pagan symbolism and imagery and even doctrine, but protestantism was free of paganism.
As I came to find out, that’s hardly the case. It’s not just Catholicism that’s bound up with paganism, it’s the entire gospel story. (Most of the OT, too.) The Jesus story is a legend, a myth, a fairy tale. There’s no reason to believe that the character known as Jesus of Nazareth ever actually existed.
Let me ask you, 2Cents – suppose you’d been talking to someone about their need to accept Christ as their personal savior. And they asked you what contemporary, or even near contemporary, historical evidence there is to back up the New Testament stories of Jesus.
What sources would you point him to?
Report comment to moderator
Or are you one of those Bahnsen/Van Til “presuppositional” types who believes that the only proof we need that the bible is the inspired word of god is the bible’s statement that it’s the inspired word of god?
Report comment to moderator
Spent more than half my life as a “new creation in Christ”?
-mcdi
That confirms you didn’t.
God has providentially preserved His Word perfect in the Bible. It is thus sacred and infallible and final authority.
“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (Jas 1:25)
Always disregard Bible critical information created by the antichrists and sin defenders. It’s all worthless.
Never doubt the infallible Bible.
We know..
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” (1Jo 5:20)
Report comment to moderator
mcdivitt,
The final authority on the infallible Bible, is the Bible.
Welcome to final authority!
(You can also tell that to the Supreme Court folks when you see them. They’ll appreciate that.
)
Report comment to moderator
Report comment to moderator
Evidently, there are some who have never heard of the historian Josephus who wrote about Jesus. My, but our education is lacking.
Report comment to moderator
#16 – Some do, but Genesis doesn’t require a doctrine of original sin, and most Jews consider it a sectarian corruption.
Report comment to moderator
Josephus? LOL Yeah, never heard of him! Why do so many Christians feel the need to accuse people they disagree with of all sorts of things while knowing nothing about them?
Even many evangelical Christian scholars admit that the passage about Jesus being the Christ in Josephus is a poor forgery.
Report comment to moderator
Genesis is just as mythological/allegorical as the gospels.
Report comment to moderator
Like Pharoah, you have 1 correct choice, Mcdivitt…
….compliance.
:-O
Report comment to moderator
The Pharaoh/Exodus story is just a myth, too, 2Cents. Never happened.
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
Of course, Jews need to become new creations in Christ.
All NT commentary on Genesis is infallible.
(in a hurry..gotta go..later)
Report comment to moderator
Thanks for the dialogue everyone!
Report comment to moderator
#11: Anne Rice isn’t adding to God’s commands, or adding to the prophecy in Revelation. Those verses don’t apply.
#1: Yes, Christianity is basically the fulfillment of Judaism. As for Christianity being “Jewish”, that depends on how you interpret “Jewish”. The word derives from the Latin for “Judean”, which in turn derives from the Hebrew/Aramaic or for the same thing. So in the sense that the cradle of God’s new covenant happens to be Judea, Christianity is indeed “Jewish”.
Report comment to moderator
Buddyglass –
Report comment to moderator
Here is an excerpt from Christ the LORD: out of Egypt –
Jesus miracles did not begin until he turned the water into wine, this is documented in the Word of God.
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. John 2:11
Report comment to moderator
Jeremiah was a Jewish prophet. He wrote, “The heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?” That verse is part of the Jewish, Old Testament canon. Thus, Judaism does have a doctrine of original sin.
Report comment to moderator
She’s not adding to the words of scripture, unless she’s claiming that her FICTIONAL book is actually FACT.
As for Cana, I’m not sure I’d interpret that as strictly as you do. The word translated “miracles” there is translated “signs” elsewhere in John. Its conceivable that Jesus did other miraculous things that were not intended to be “signs”. This is possibly supported by the fact that John use a different word (s?meion) than what is used elsewhere in the Gospels for “miracle” or “act of power” (dynamis).
Report comment to moderator
There’s no doubt Jesus was Jewish, and that knowing about first-century Jewish culture is an aid to understanding the New Testament, particularly the Gospels. Some other interesting historical fiction in this respect is published by Lamplighter Publishing Co., such as Titus: A Comrade of the Cross, or The Cross Triumphant. If you go to their site, you can click on the “Historical” tab at the left, and then click on the “1st Century A.D.” banner. Or just click here:
http://www.lamplighterpublishing.com/products.asp?dept=64
Report comment to moderator
Buddyglass
She takes liberties with Scripture that are not given to any of us. That which is written in the New Testament, those miracles by Christ are so wonderful, it is heresy to make up miracles that never happened.
No she didn’t say it was “fact” – she plays with the life of Christ, believing that what she writes is worthwhile, when in fact it’s a sham. Pretending its Biblically themed, based, etc., its all the same thing, it never happened, but there are people who can’t take the Word of God as it is, —– but decide to fictionalize the Bible —
Report comment to moderator
Still, Ben Hur was a wonderful book & movie, don’t you think?
Report comment to moderator
I read the first volume of Anne Rice’s fictional biography of Jesus, and found parts of it interesting, but a lot of it is based on Catholic mythology (Mary’s potential virginity, Jesus bringing clay birds to life), and I found the whole thing disconcerting (like having Jesus begin to realize who He really was). I have no interest in reading the rest of it.
As to the book Witness profiled above, I haven’t read it, but why, if it was trying to be historically accurate, did it focus on a little girl shepherd? Wasn’t that more commonly a boy’s job, and wouldn’t it make it easier for us to picture things the way they really happened to have the child be a boy?
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, I don’t think it’s “heresy” to imagine other things Jesus might have done in His lifetime that aren’t recorded, if you treat them as fiction and not as fact. I’m made a bit uncomfortable by it, but I think “heresy” is too strong a word. (It isn’t heresy to paint a picture of Jesus, even though we don’t know what He looked like–it’s pretty much the same thing.)
Report comment to moderator
Well, I see some of us didn’t take ancient history in school and are proud of it. Josephus was an historian who wrote about the crucifixion.
Report comment to moderator
LOL
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt’s is a nervous laugh.
Report comment to moderator
Has anyone read a miracle that Jesus performed from Anne Rice’s book? – It would appear the real deal in the Bible isn’t ‘good enough’ a fictional miracle might entertain OR sell books ?
Lets take it another step, there must be good reason for the early life of Christ to be omitted from the New Testament — If GOD had wanted us to know HE would have included it HIS Word, but HE left it out-
FABLES – the world loves fiction, that’s why people read it, even to the point of making up stories about Christ our LORD which are false…. all in the name of ‘FICTION’ -
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt’s is a nervous laugh.
LOLOLOL!
Report comment to moderator
I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded, he never existed!
Report comment to moderator
It seems as more posts appear, we the sock puppet back AGAIN!
Report comment to moderator
Sock puppet?
Wow, Victoria! You really think I’m Marcia Segelstein using a fake name?
Incredible.
Report comment to moderator
Lets take it another step, there must be good reason for the early life of Christ to be omitted from the New Testament — If GOD had wanted us to know HE would have included it HIS Word, but HE left it out-
A fairly standard type of argument at worldmagblog.
Whatever happened (in myth or in historical fact) is the way God meant it to happen. Whatever did not happen is what God meant not to happen.
This is a decline from the world being the “best of all possible worlds.” Now we have “fallen” to the only of all possible world.
Drill obviously read a lot of science fiction, perhaps more than I did. But I will have to stand in here and point out that one possibility that all possible worlds exist in various dimensions.
Report comment to moderator
Marcia certainly touched some nerves today. In case we’re tallying votes, I’m with Victoria. Scripture doesn’t need dramatic enhancement fed by speculation.
But I do I wonder why the idea of a historical Jesus bothers the atheists so much?
Report comment to moderator
Especially, I might add, when they think that parrallel universes “could” exist.
Report comment to moderator
Even the Apostles tell us Jesus did too many things for them to write them all down. Why can’t we speculate about what it was he did? I read “Witness” and it made First Century Life come alive for me. It’s less about Jesus and more about the people he influenced. It’s the first in the “Seeds of Christianity Series,” and I look forward to the others. The author tells us that events in the book are historically accurate, if fictionalized to make them readable. His support for them is covered in “Author’s Notes” in the back — almost as interesting as the novel.
Report comment to moderator
Had to answer Cheryl D’s comment about why not make the heroine of “Witness” a shepherd boy. Here’s a quote from “Witness” with Rivkah’s answer: “There is no such thing as a shepherdess,” Gavriel hollared. (new para) I shook my fist at him. “Did an unclean spirit turn you into a goy?” He glared at me for calling him a gentile, not that I cared. “What about Laban’s daughters, Leah and Rachel? Have you never heard of Jethro’s seven daughters, of Zipporah the shepherdess and wife of Moshe?” end quote. Rivkah’s father did not have sons. And, when would a little boy sneak into a stable in Bethlehem and ask Mary to hold the baby Jesus? Rivkah does. Their lifelong friendship plays a pivotal role in the story. It’s a must read!
Report comment to moderator
Even the Apostles tell us Jesus did too many things for them to write them all down.
LOL! That’s not exactly how the bible puts it.
What it actually says is And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written
Which is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous.
Report comment to moderator
Fictional books about Christ are a distortion of truth.
As you can see we cannot “ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS” those who do will be found a liar – of course one can say, thinking they are slipping out of liar-shp that they are just making ‘fiction’ to be published, money to be made – all to the cause of entertaining those who delight in tale’s –
Has anyone bothered to look at this book, and see ALL the false-hoods which are contrary to Scripture – is that what Believers do, look for false teaching as fictional entertainment?
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, do you read a lot of Jack Chick comics?
Report comment to moderator
Below is a link to part of the book – you can read it for yourself – then, if you know the Word of GOD, see if this matches up. If you don’t know the Bible, then you won’t know the difference –
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/excerpts/2005-11-01-christ-the-lord_x.htm
Report comment to moderator
Victoria (#56),
I looked at it. In my opinion it is tripe!
Report comment to moderator
Rondu –
I agree it is, but there are a lot of people who love ‘tripe’ and believe it enhances their life, or at least entertains them.
There are people who want to fictionalize what Jesus life might have been like, they make a mockery when they play that fictional game. I believe that if God had wanted us to know anymore than is in HIS Word HE would have told us.
Report comment to moderator
Literally, I’m laughing out loud.
Report comment to moderator
#33 Buzzy argues incorrectly that because of Jeremiah 17:9, Judaism therefore teaches a doctrine of original sin.
The doctrine requires more than “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [sick]: who can know it?”
Further, the first historical exponent of a doctrine of original sin was St. Augustine. Christianity is the only religion that teaches it. Jews don’t, because only God knows the motives behind human conduct and can detect thoughts and feelings in order to make such a judgement. Who can know? Only God. He searches and tests each person individually, Jeremiah goes on to say. God requites each person for his or her conduct. The judgement isn’t pre-ordained.
Jeremiah was addressing the moral condition of the people of Judah, not all people at all times. Besides, Ezekiel rejects the concept of inherited, native guilt.
Judaism teaches that people sin because they’re imperfect, not because they’re inherently sinful. “Imperfect” is a distinct concept from “evil.”
This doesn’t disprove original sin, it only means that Christianity is not Jewish in this regard. Except during Yom Kippur, about the only role Jews give to sin is as a filler between the letters bles and g. In other words, Judaism teaches that to search one’s conscience and make amends is a worth-while and not at all futile moral exercise. A person can be naturally righteous as a healthy, well-watered tree (Jeremiah says).
Report comment to moderator
McDivitt denies that Jesus ever lived yet writes the year 2010 on his checks. Go figure!
Is Christianity Jewish? Well, it depends on how one defines the terms. I think it would be more accurate to say that God’s people consist of believers with a variety of backgrounds including Jewish.
On the other hand the Westernization of Christianity saddens me, but it shouldn’t since Christianity transcends culture. I wish we called Jesus by his actual name and the same goes for all of the saints. But the early church had no problem with the Hellenization, so neither should I.
Report comment to moderator
Regarding the question of fiction, there seem to be several layers here. The first is whether fiction itself can ever be edifying. I’d say definitely yes; others on here would probably say no (and thus their answers to the subsequent questions are predetermined and possibly irrelevant).
The second question is whether one can ever write fiction on sacred subjects, and again I’d answer yes. In fact, in a sense we do it every time we imagine something Scripture doesn’t directly tell us. In this sense, Victoria did it herself with me a few weeks ago, when she was speculating about the possibility that Adam and Eve could have had children in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. Since the Bible doesn’t tell us that, it’s speculating, and more or less “fiction.” But anytime a person writes a children’s story about Noah, or an imaginary tale about life in Eden, that is fiction. It needs to be done with care, but I know no reason to say it’s wrong, as long as we make clear that it’s not strictly following the Bible text. People in the Bible were just people, and fair subjects for fiction.
The third question is whether one can write fiction that somehow involves the life of Christ. Examples of this genre that most of us would approve include Ben Hur and The Chronicles of Narnia. So most of us would say, “Maybe–but be careful.” The real question then, for most of us, is whether Anne Rice was careful enough with her subject matter, and here I think most of us would say probably not. But I don’t think she meant to be irreverent–she meant to lift up Christ–and the difference in opinion on whether it was “appropriate” probably largely stems from a different theological tradition. Catholicism simply allows a lot more leeway on such things than Protestantism does, for better or for worse.
Report comment to moderator
An argument can be made that if one is going to believe tripe, one should stick to the original, pure stuff.
Report comment to moderator
#7
You can’t have it both ways.
Why not?
Half the time, the conservative Christians here argue that one can “prove” the Bible is true by various trivial and silly arguments (some figures in the Bible have been confirmed by historical evidence, etc.)
Half the time, they argue that truth can be determined by non-empirical methods–beauty of a sunset or a butterfly, emotions such as love, etc.
That is just as much an example of “having it both ways,” as anything you accuse me of.
Report comment to moderator
#6
That kind of stings, doesn’t it?
Not particularly. More difficult for me is having been raised to believe that the founding of modern Israel is a heroic story and that the Arabs and Palestinians were unremittingly wicked, I have come more to regard the founding of Israel as a sad blunder and that everyone in the Middle East — the most religious of areas in the world — is not only unremittingly wicked but also unremittingly stupid.
If the Arabs and the Iranians pooled their oil with the Jews’ brains and cunning [this is a dreadfully racist statement and you may flame me to your hearts' content] the Middle East could easily conquer the world.
Be glad. Be very, very glad, that they are so dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.
Report comment to moderator
#6
That kind of stings, doesn’t it?
Not particularly. More difficult for me is having been raised to believe that the founding of modern Israel is a heroic story and that the Arabs and Palestinians were unremittingly wicked, I have come more to regard the founding of Israel as a sad blunder and that everyone in the Middle East — the most religious of areas in the world — is not only unremittingly wicked but also unremittingly stupid.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry about the double post. Another sign of Alzheimer’s seizing control of my brain. I will post, post, post my way into dementia. Good night.
Report comment to moderator
My comments were in connection to the time-line – I did not write a book with a fictional purpose to make money from. Your attempt at exoneration for fictional writing regarding God the Son is not correct, nor is it reasonable. I don’t fictionalize anything in the Word of GOD.
My post above #68 should have specified that the following paragrpah was written by Cheryl:
Report comment to moderator
REGARDING POST #68:
The following is my answer to Cheryl’s comment:
Report comment to moderator
#22 NJLAWYER
Apollonius – ca. 15?–ca. 100? AD
Appian – c. 95 – c. 165
Arrian – ca. 86 – 160
Auls Gellius – ca. 125 AD—after 180 AD
Columella – AD 4 – ca. AD 70
Epictetus -AD 55–AD 135
Damis – AD 55–AD 135
Dio Chrysostom – ca. 40–ca. 120
Dion Pruseus – ca. 40–ca. 120
Favorinus – ca. 80–160 AD
Florus Lucius –
Hermogones – AD 161-180
Italicus – AD 25 – 101
Justus of Tiberius – 2nd half of first century
Juvenal – late 1st and early 2nd century
Lucanus – November 3, 39 AD – April 30, 65 AD
Lucian – c. A.D. 125 – after A.D. 180
Martial – March 1, between 38 and 41 AD – between 102 and 104 AD
Paterculus – c. 19 BC – c. 31 AD
Quintilian – ca. 35 – ca. 100
Quintius Curtius – middle of 1st century
Persius – middle of 1st century
Petronius – ca. 27–66 AD
Phaedrus – c. 15 BC – c. AD 50
Philo-Judaeus – 20 BCE – 50 CE
Phlegon – 2nd century AD
Pliny the Elder – 23 CE – August 25, 79
Pliny the Younger – 61 AD – ca. 112 AD
Plutarch -c. 46 – 120 AD
Pompon Mela – 1st century
Ptolemy – c. AD 90 – c. 168
Seneca – ca. 54 BC – ca. 39 AD
Statius – ca. 45-ca. 96 AD
Suetonius – ca. 69/75 – after 130
Tacitus -AD 56 – AD 117
Theon of Smyran – ca. 70–ca. 135
Valerius Flaccus – died AD 90
Valerius Maximus – first century
A short list of authors (astronomers, philosophers, lawyers, poets, historians, mathematicians) at the time of Christ who either make no mention of Christ or the miracles he performed or the 3 hours of darkness during the crucifixion. That would have caught an astronomers attention. Seems all of it would have hit the “news” of its day.
Josephus minimal statement stands alone and his entry is suspect.
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (…) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
– Matthew 27:45, 27:51-54
Report comment to moderator
Exminister – 72
Your list proves nothing – not a single thing.
There are 30 times more so called scholars in recent history who see nothing, they aren’t able to understand the Bible or who GOD is, or what HIS Son did according to HIS Will – that is nothing but little man’s inability to grasp the majesty and power of Almighty GOD – no one expects those who’s eyes have been covered to see –
The prophecies in the OT which came to pass in the New Testament, are proof of the Bible. Today there have been many prophecies which have come to pass in the past decades – what you have brought forth is flimsy and has nothing to do with the creator of the universe, the heavens, and the LORD’S gift to any man who believes on Christ as Savior.
Report comment to moderator
#73 Victoria.
No surprise there. You got a bible harness on.
Bible prophecies are pretty weak.
Either they happened at the same time as the author wrote them or backfilled them to fit history or if they were future references they are on the obvious side. No brilliance is required. There is the Daniel one about knowledge increasing and men running to and fro. Every subsequent generation could identify with them. Nothing outstanding. This is a major point. If every generation can identify with the prophecy then it is not truly a prophecy.
Also Christians have endlessly coming up with text showing that this or that happened because of it. An honest scholar will look at Daniel and Revelation and admit defeat.
The ones we hear today is that Jesus is coming in our lifetime, very soon.
But he told the people listening to him that “THIS generation will not pass away” before they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. And also some standing there would NOT taste death.
Matthew 24:30-35 & Mark 8:38-9:1
Each generation since Christ, over 200 now, believes it was directed to their times. Sad.
So, what is the best prophecy you would point to?
Report comment to moderator
#73. Victoria.
The list of writers proves the life of Christ was a non-event at that time.
Today if someone were raising people from the dead, drawing large crowds, turning water into wine, causing earthquakes and the sky to go dark for no reason the news would go viral.
Report comment to moderator
exmin,
Any reference in the NT regarding OT revelation is infallible.
And the final authority on the NT, is the NT.
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” (Mt 1:21-23)
Scientific, historical, and theological criticism of the NT is, as usual, worthless.
God does not need the permission of the defiant.
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
For the Jew..
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Ro 5:12)
This is why the Jew, and the Gentile, dies.
The inward condition?..
“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Eph 4:22)
The Jew requires deliverance via the shed BLOOD at Calvary.
If a Jew or Gentile would reject this, they, of course, reject infallible FACT. Of course, rejection is very common.
AND some wise up.
This is good.
Report comment to moderator
#64
random,
So then, as an atheist, you would defend the position that Hitler was a chemical-onlyite?
If so, you would chemically reason, that his existence, his deeds, his morals, and his words, were foundationally valueless. After all, he was only chemistry. He really wasn’t even a “he”.
Now what might be my next question?
:-O
Report comment to moderator
Sinners many times think that “defiant-group-think” hinders the stone from being rolled away.
“And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.” (Mr 16:6-7)
What they’re really angry about, is the fact that God “has their number” and would DARE to perfectly fulfill HIS will, without asking their permission.
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.” (1Co 3:19)
BUT grace and mercy is available.
Don’t miss it.
Report comment to moderator
Was Isaac Jewish??
“Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Ro 9:7-8)
“And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, THE LAW, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER, CANNOT DISANNUL, that it should make the promise of none effect.” (Ga 3:17)
Just thought I’d help out the rabbis.
N/C.
Report comment to moderator
I wonder if Exminister writes down every time it gets dark during the day? If not, then his argument evaporates.
Nothing will convince a skeptic, even if Moses came back and spoke to him. He will build a wall of strawmen and rest smugly on his vapid arguments which can be tossed aside like a feather. Some of these scoffers will spend the rest of their lives tormenting Christians as some sort of malignant pleasure. Carry on for you were called for such a purpose.
However the Bible is sufficient to prove itself to the willing. The Bible is very deep and is convincing on many levels. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
There is only one book on planet earth that was composed and preserved over thousands of years by kings and paupers in different countries and languages and yet it has a clear beginning, middle and end to the greatest story every told about the most profound and highest concept of Grace. To dismiss the Bible is like dismissing all the beauty of nature.
The key that unlocks the mystery of the Bible is Jesus (Gal 3:24,25). Every page is about him. Prophetic evidence is only part of this. Watching God’s unfolding plan preparing a people, a place and a point in time where God would be manifest in the flesh, is an endless and rewarding exercise that strengthens faith.
The most convincing aspect of the Bible which skeptics are unable to fathom is that the climax of the story was set up in advance on every page by people who could not have known the whole story. This encryption technique authenticates that the author is supernatural and not bound by time.
It is as if different people were given a piece of the puzzle over thousands of years and they only knew about their piece. And yet, in the fullness of time when all of the pieces were assembled it was a coherent picture of Christ on the cross.
Some pieces on their own appeared horrific, e.g. a man is asked to sacrifice his son on a mountain. What kind of God asks such a thing? And yet 2000 years later Jesus, God’s son is offered on the very same mountain as a picture of the most profound love. There are hundreds of these encrypted illustrations that make no sense until Christ arrived and fulfilled them all.
Lay on top of all of this the veracity of the words themselves as they accurate disclose the heart of man resulting in changed lives. These words are diamonds. But hand them to swine and they will merely trample them in the mud.
Report comment to moderator
#77 – St. Paul misreads and distorts Jewish scripture in the quote you provide (and in other places). Death didn’t enter the world through Adam. Mortality was an original aspect of creation. Neither did sin enter the world through Adam. The first “sin” mentioned in Genesis is the murder of Abel. These are basic, familiar points of Jewish belief.
St. Paul’s mistake about the meaning of death leads him to another, equally serious, error: human sacrifice. Jewish religion represented a turning away from this barbaric practice. G-d expresses increasing disinterest in animal or any material sacrifice, which was practiced at only one cultic location. St. Paul departed from and contradicted Judaic history with his justification and intensification of human blood sacrifice in his interpretation of the crucifixion of Jesus.
Report comment to moderator
Xion, you talk about the bible the same way I used to talk about it, for years. I imagine Ex-minister would say the same thing. It sounds quite profound, but it’s actually nonsense.
Report comment to moderator
Freud’s Totem and Tabu is an essential explication of how people understand the purpose and function of ancient sacrificial systems and their derivatives.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, I’ve done better than read your link, I read the book itself when it came out–and I agree with you that the book isn’t a good idea. (I think the idea of a boy being in a gang doesn’t necessarily mean a gang of kids doing crime, however–she never presents Jesus as a sinner, don’t worry.) You seem to go farther, though, and say that no fiction about Jesus’ day, using biblical characters, could possibly be a good idea, and I disagree. One example you gave was about James being said to be the eldest son, born to Joseph (by a former wife who had died) before Jesus was born. The author believes the Catholic doctrine that Mary remained a virgin, and therefore she has written the story in such a way that the boys who are said in Scripture to be Jesus’ brothers were in fact either Joseph’s sons, but not Mary’s, or other relatives who had been adopted by them. She is trying to be true to her belief of Scripture there rather than trying to make things up just to be creative. We therefore disagree on her underlying belief; it doesn’t really matter what she did with that belief, but she wasn’t making that particular creative leap on her own. And teachers of children do the same thing every time they teach a Sunday school class and speculate how two biblical truths can both be true.
Here’s an example: the Bible tells us Jesus would be in the grave three days and three nights, and yet most teachers have no problem saying that Jesus was killed on Friday. Is that three days and three nights? No, it isn’t–but they’re honestly trying to reconcile Scripture, and honestly believe Friday to be the day Jesus died. So they explain how it was Friday, just as this author explained how Jesus’ brothers could be His brothers if Mary was a virgin and didn’t bear any other children. My father always argued that Jesus had to have been killed on Wednesday, not Friday, and others argue for Thursday. For me, I don’t know–I stay out of such discussions altogether. But someone can argue for a different day of the week without being a heretic, as long as he agrees the Bible is true.
I agree with you that this book goes too far. But I think you’d also argue against a lot of other Christian literature on similar grounds–I think, in other words, that you’d be against this book no matter how careful she was, because you think it’s wrong to fictionalize any aspect of Scripture. I, on the other hand, think it’s OK to “fictionalize” a tale of Noah building the ark–to imagine him and his son cutting down trees, for instance, or hiring people to carry lumber. I don’t think there’s any sacrilege in doing so. But we’re in agreement on this book.
Report comment to moderator
#82
scroop,
I realize there are critics of the infallible NT.
And there is reason..
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.” (Ro 11:7-8)
But the Great High Priest will be returning..
“(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)” (Heb 7:21)
Report comment to moderator
#83 McDivitt “It sounds quite profound, but it’s actually nonsense.”
Grace is nonsense? On whose authority?
Calling the Bible nonsense is like calling the greatest masterpieces nonsense. It comes across as ignorant and brutish.
Report comment to moderator
I didn’t call the bible nonsense.
Report comment to moderator
There are certainly many nonsensical parts of the bible, but I would never categorize the bible as a whole as nonsense. Myth and allegory are better descriptors. I was referring to your post about the bible, as well as the very similar things I used to say about the Bible. “Every page is about Jesus”? Please. Give me a break.
Report comment to moderator
I think an important distinction must be made:
Christianity is indeed “Jewish” — but only in the sense that it is the consummation of the true (i.e., Old Testament) Jewish religion.
Christianity is most certainly not “Jewish” in regards to Talmudic (i.e., contemporary) Judaism, since Talmudic Judaism is a perversion of the Old Testament Jewish religion.
That is to say, true Judaism believed and followed Jesus the Messiah, whereas those “Jews” who rejected Him apostatized, and the religion they followed after that was necessarily false and apostate.
This distinction is vital, because the word “Jewish” today virtually always means Talmudic Judaism, not the true religion of the O.T. saints.
Report comment to moderator
… and as soon as I posted that, I realized another distinction must be made: between “Jewish” meaning an ethnic division of people (regardless of their religion or lack of one), and “Jewish” in regards to Talmudic Judaism.
Report comment to moderator
Actually, the title, “Christianity IS Jewish” was probably formatted so, in order to blitz the audience and get the attention.
It appears, Marcia, that it worked.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry to see the “I know…I used to be one” approach is still getting passed around by the kids. It’s a thin concoction of special pleading and appeal to authority by prior identification. Seems filling at first, but it’s got no substance. Trust me, I used to chew it too till my taste matured {:~)
Report comment to moderator
Do what now?
Report comment to moderator
Frank, it’s pretty hard to square the idea that Jesus and YHWH are one with the separate biblical accounts.
I’m fairly sure that Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t an actual historical character, but I’m not 100% convinced. But if he was real, he certainly wasn’t any relation to the god of the OT. The notion that Jesus and YHWY were even on the same page, let alone the same being, is completely ludicrous.
Report comment to moderator
MYTOOSENSE et al:
A) Do your research! The plays of Aeschylus are preserved in perhaps 50 manuscripts, of which none is complete. Sophocles is represented by about 100 manuscripts, of which only 7 have any independent value. The Greek Anthology has survived in one solitary copy. The same is the case with a considerable part of Tacitus’ Annals. The number of manuscripts of other writers are: for Caesar’s Gallic War 10, Aristotle 49, Plato 7, Herodotus 8, Aristophanes 10.
Homer’s Iliad is the best represented of all ancient writings, apart from the New Testament, with something like 700 manuscripts. However, there are many more significant variations in the Iliad manuscripts than there are in those of the New Testament.
When we come to the New Testament, we find a very different picture. Altogether we possess about 5,300 partial or complete Greek manuscripts. Early on, the New Testament books were translated into other languages, which seldom happened with other Greek and Latin writers. This means that in addition to Greek, we have something like 8,000 manuscripts in Latin, and an additional 8,000 or so manuscripts in other languages such as Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopic, Coptic, Gothic, Slavic, Sahidic and Georgian.
From the third edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica:
This argument is so strong, that, if we deny the authenticity of the New Testament we may with a thousand times greater propriety reject all the other writings in the world.
B) Genesis is NOT allegorical, the anti-religionists perpetuate this view because it allows them to deny the existence of God. A good book to read is “Genesis and the Big Bang” by Gerald L Schroeder, PhD. Schroeder is a Jewish Physicist and takes all of his Biblical information from Jewish commentaries such as the Babylon Talmud, The Mishnah, Maimonides, Nahmanides, etc. He reconciles the apparent contradictions between modern physics and the Genesis account. If read with an open mind, it will change your viewpoint.
Report comment to moderator
windyrdg,
You included “mytoosense” in your addressee line.
I wasn’t sure whether you bonked your head logging in.
see #86
Were you trying to tell me I’m a moron?
I used to be a moron when I was more off.
Now I’m more on.
Moreover..
“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:” (Ro 5:20)
More on that later.
Report comment to moderator
If atheists were truly atheistic then they wouldn’t spend their every waking hour chasing Christians around just to call them dummy-heads.
Think about it. This is not meant as a complaint or criticism, but a call to inner reflection. If Christianity is myth, then what is the motive deep in your heart that prevents an hour from slipping by before attacking Christ or his followers?
The enemies of God do as much to prove his existence as his followers. Why are Jesus Christ and God the only names on the planet used in the form of a curse? It is considered taboo to criticize religious people unless they are Christian or Jewish. Then it is fair game and even expected. Killing them is an Islamic commandment and honor.
I am not complaining. It is merely an observation which adds to the veracity of Christ’s words, “They hated me before they hated you”. This hatred makes no sense other than as inexplicably supernatural.
Report comment to moderator
As Jonathan Edwards pointed out, one of the best evidences of the truth of the doctrine of original sin is the universality of sin. Trying to make a distinction between sin and imperfection as regards human nature simply doesn’t cut it, notwithstanding Scroop Moth’s protestations to the contrary. (Compare Psalm 53:3 – Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.)
Report comment to moderator
Scroop Moth makes several errors in post #82. First, there’s the fallacy of equivocation. While there may have been a concept of mortality before the Fall, that was not the type of death Paul was talking about, which is a more complete, spiritual death. Second, even if the word “sin” was first applied to Cain, that does not negate the obvious fact that Adam and Eve’s disobedience of God’s revealed will was not sin. It obviously was, and it is hard to imagine how anyone can reasonably deny this. If it was not sin, it is impossible to explain God’s reaction in meting out punishment in the form of a curse and expulsion from the Garden. Finally, as regards human sacrifice, SM fails to distinguish between someone sacrificing another human being as an atonment for his own sin, and God willingly taking on himself the punishment (death) for the sins of those he loves. (Compare Isaiah 53:8)
Report comment to moderator
Exminister #72: And all those people were located in Jerusalem looking up at the sky at the moment of the crucifixion, eh?
Report comment to moderator
Serious George #93 –
Report comment to moderator
Bible prophecies aren’t weak in the least – your problem is, you can’t refute them…. from OT to NT and from the past decades.
The Bible bothers you, and that’s because your standing daily trying to refute GOD’s Word with no success – you aren’t the only one who has come to this blog with every gimmick, and pseudo clever phrase, and posts, to try their hand against the Word – it’s never worked, you most certainly are not the most proficient.
Report comment to moderator
Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD)
” (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.”
He wrote it, I didn’t.
Report comment to moderator
Serious George
I was speaking to someone just a few hours ago who said “I used to believe the same way before I finally understood” – - I didn’t think people muttered that phrase anymore, but alas, it’s still used, …. then finding it on this thread.
Report comment to moderator
NJL – those who ridicule Josephus and his writings are unlearned – I doubt they have his writings in their library, that is IF they even have a library.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria – plus, basically what he’s saying is: “Statement A is nonsense. I used to say Statement A.” Which raises the obvious question, if it’s nonsense, then why did you used to say it?Therefore, he’s indicting himself. Amusing, no?
Report comment to moderator
He wrote it, I didn’t.
No he didn’t. It was inserted centuries later.
those who ridicule Josephus and his writings are unlearned
And who has ridiculed Josephus or his writings on here? No one that I know of. Pointing out that the people who changed his writings to shore up belief in a literal Jesus committed an obvious and poor forgery is in no way a criticism of Josephus or his writings.
Besides, why would you yourself trust Josephus? You told us yesterday that when it comes to Jesus, we can only trust the Bible.
Report comment to moderator
McDivitt, you’re the one who keeps saying Jesus Christ didn’t exist in history. I provided you with a primary source.
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt – Name the Evangelical Christian scholars who have said that Josephus writings regarding Christ Jesus are a forgery?
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy – it is amusing -
Report comment to moderator
“You told us yesterday that when it comes to Jesus, we can only trust the Bible.”
I’ve reread my posts. I didn’t write anything like that. But let’s not confuse you with the facts.
Report comment to moderator
NJLawyer, that line of mine you quote in #112 was meant for Victoria, not you. I should’ve made that clearer. Sorry.
Report comment to moderator
I do trust the Bible as the Word of GOD, but that doesn’t mean I don’t read or believe those who knew Jesus and his disciples. Who studied under the Apostles, do you understand this? Their writings are not inspired as those who penned the books of the New Testament, inspired by God – those were men who GOD chose to do this, the Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God.
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt – since you have first attributed this to NJLawyer and now to me – produce the post, so that we can all become familiar with your point.
Report comment to moderator
Well, when you’re being nasty, McDivitt, these things happen.
Now, Jesus Christ IS mentioned by ancient historians, including Tacitus, and quite frankly, it is hard to believe that as historians they would mention someone who was a myth. What would be the point. Moreover, there’s not a lot left from back in that day. These were people who wrote on papyrus and not a lot of that survives. But you keep at it.
I will agree with Victoria for one very important reason — the Gospels themselves. And not because I am a Christian. The truth is they are historical documents, primary sources, whether you accept them or not, and most historians don’t have a problem with Jesus’ existence even if they don’t believe he was the Son of God.
I am waiting for your explanation of why you no longer believe.
Report comment to moderator
There were men who sat under the Apostle John after Christ died on the cross and arose.
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch died about 107 -110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John
Here are some of the quotes made by Ignatius, which PROVE that those who knew the Apostle John believed in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
Report comment to moderator
Well, when you’re being nasty, McDivitt, these things happen.
Being nasty?
Report comment to moderator
People who deny Jesus existed shouldn’t buy calendars. It might confuse them.
Report comment to moderator
And people who call themselves Christians should never, ever refer to Wodin’s Day (Wednesday) or Thor’s Day(Thursday) or Saturn’s Day (Saturday), etc.
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt – the more you post this nonsense the more obvious you become – Do you know Lumps?
Report comment to moderator
I had forgotten about Lumpy!
You ARE wound up, McD.
Report comment to moderator
And what is it that Jesus did to you?
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
NJLawyer and Victoria -
What day of the week is this?
Report comment to moderator
McD, you remind us of a former poster.
Saturday.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Mcdivitt
Your use of the ‘e’ word is a nasty word. Anyone can find the definition in the Urban Dictionary – Just GOOGLE!
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
If it was not sin, it is impossible to explain God’s reaction in meting out punishment in the form of a curse and expulsion from the Garden.
BUZZY, In the story, the expulsion isn’t a punishment for sin, it’s a strategy. Adam and Eve are evicted to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, and thereby becoming immortal (obviously, after having been created mortal). Neither does the story call the expulsion a “curse.” God curses the snake and the ground, on account of Adam and Eve, but not Adam and Eve themselves. They don’t “fall.” Far from being reduced, their state is empowered by the acquisition of knowledge. So far as the rest of the stuff goes, pain of childbirth is increased, not imposed, and labor becomes more toilsome (pending Roundup-Ready seeds), but Adam already works. People ordinarily consider these conditions of life to be good fortune, not punishment (or at least better than the alternative). So what’s the big deal already? Most any rabbi will tell you, it isn’t.
BTW, the only deceit in the story is God’s scare tactic regarding the consequences of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Eve takes the fall for God’s misdirection by falsely confessing she was deceived, and blaming the snake. Of course, the snake tells nothing but the truth, as God subsequently admits (on the wiretap). So now God owes Eve, big time.
Paul’s mistake, he takes all this blame-shifting beyond ultimate limits of reason.
Again, this is all standard Jewish P.O.V. You can say it’s wrong, but you can’t claim much similarity.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
I just remembered that thankfully, you guys are Christians, and will follow Jesus’ commands to turn the other cheeks, and forgive me even if I sin against 490 times in a row.
Whew!
For a minute I was worried about getting banned!
Report comment to moderator
Any of you who reported my comments to the moderator while claiming to be a Christian stand exposed as being hypocrites of the worst kind.
Report comment to moderator
Comment deleted by moderator.
Report comment to moderator
Man, this thread sure got quiet in a hurry. What gives?
Report comment to moderator
Has anyone considered that the name of this thread should really be reversed?
Report comment to moderator
No, but I’ll cogitate on it a while!
Report comment to moderator
Scroop, you sure have an “interesting” interpretation of Genesis chapter 3. While I would agree that there may have been a concept of mortality, as I acknowledged above, it was obviously not the same thing as the death of which God was speaking. God said, “in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die” (2:17), which clearly meant something other than whatever type of mortality already existed. And indeed, in the day they ate of it, their ultimate death became a moral certainty. If it wasn’t clear that that’s what God meant at first, subsequent events confirmed it. So there is no lack of truth-telling on God’s part.
As for the serpent, he told a half-truth – which is the most insidious kind of lie. He said, “you will become like God, knowing good and evil.” They did come to a knowledge of good and evil, but not by becoming “like God.” To the contrary, they came to know good and evil by yielding to evil and hating good. What you have to grasp is that the tree’s fruit was not magic, but more like an ordinance: a physical means by which God intended to accomplish a spiritual transaction. God knew that, by that tree, because of his “thou mayest not” command, one way or another Adam and Eve would become acquainted with good and evil – which incidentally is a sign of spiritual maturity. Either they would obey God, resist evil, and love good (thereby coming into a knowledge of good and evil in a way that would not have led to spiritual death), or they would do what they did, in the end hating good and loving evil.
They most certainly did fall; they were perfectly at ease in the Garden. After disobeying God, they became ashamed and needed covering for their embarrassment. God’s curse was uttered “because you have done this” (3:14). Their own attempts to cover their shame and guilt were inadequate so God had to kill an animal and make adequate clothing for them (3:21). This was a picture of the sacrifice for the covering of the sins of all who will believe on the slain Lamb of God for forgiveness, for as God says in the Torah, it is blood that makes atonement for one’s life (Lev. 17:11). I’m not sure how you can conclude that an increase in pain in childbirth, a newly-introduced battle-of-the-sexes (3:16), the addition of painful toil to the making of one’s living, and the returning to the ground as dust are all good things, or no “big deal.” Your position defies logic.
In the Torah, without a blood sacrifice, there is no atonement. Therefore, since the destruction of the second temple, true biblical Judaism has not been practiced. The rabbinical form of Judaism we have today is not biblical. You may call it “standard Jewish P.O.V.” but that is yet another fallacy: mob appeal. It doesn’t make it correct Jewish P.O.V.
Report comment to moderator
Fuzzy, you actually believe that Genesis stuff???
Report comment to moderator
#14
I have to agree with Scroop. Modern Judaism– at least according to a Jewish lady I met at the Army Medical Dept Center &School–rejects entirely the concept of original sin. As does Islam.
Colossal difference between those two faiths and the Christian canon.
Report comment to moderator
#81 XION
I wonder if Exminister writes down every time it gets dark during the day? If not, then his argument evaporates.
If there is an earthquake and the sky is dark I wouldn’t be the only one that noticed. Hopefully you are not serious about an overcast day in association with the crucifixion.
Report comment to moderator
#83 BY MCDIVITT
Xion, you talk about the bible the same way I used to talk about it, for years. I imagine Ex-minister would say the same thing. It sounds quite profound, but it’s actually nonsense.
Quite true. Dan Dennett calls it a deepity. He talked about how ministers learn how to assuage believer’s skepticism without raising curiosity and it has to sound profound.
Report comment to moderator
It’s amazing how Christians talk wondrously of all the miracles associated with Jesus and his crucifixion, until you ask them why no one else in the area noticed three hours of darkness at midday, an earthquake, and scores or hundreds of people coming out of their graves and back to life. They can’t answer that question, so they begin downplaying these erstwhile miracles – “so the ground in the immediate vicinity of the tomb may have experienced a slight tremor, and it was partly cloudy that day, that’s all…this stuff was no big deal, really.”
Next they’ll be telling us that Lazarus was simply suffering from panic attacks.
Report comment to moderator
#148 If it weren’t recorded, then how do you know about it?
Report comment to moderator
#103 VICTORIA
Bible prophecies aren’t weak in the least – your problem is, you can’t refute them…. from OT to NT and from the past decades.
I set the challenge by giving you two prophecies that failed thus refuting one and requested you provide me with what you see as the strongest one that we can see.
You couldn’t name one, but simply repeated yourself. Fail.
Report comment to moderator
All NT references to OT Scripture, are infallible FACT.
Any rabbinical criticisms of NT fulfillments are thus, as usual, worthless.
“Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Lu 24:25-27)
Hope that helps.
Report comment to moderator
Mytoosense – in many synagogues, they have deleted the 53rd chapeter of Isaiah out of the O.T. This is a passage referenced by a sub-group of Lebbuvitchers who believe Menachem Schneerson is the Messiah: they appeal to the suffering servant, substitutionary atonement, and resurrection prophesied in that passage as support for their claim. And they are Orthodox Jews.
Report comment to moderator
Exminister –
Knowledge has increased, that is apparent from every sphere – medicine, technology, being able to use a computer for research at rapid speed, science, agriculture, …. the list is endless.
Has knowledge increased? In the last hundred years it has lept at such speed no one could have ever imagined such a change, however the past 40 plus years the greatest advances have been made which no one could have thought possible. Is that a prophecy fulfilled? YOU BET!
Report comment to moderator
PROPHECY FULFILLED
The Temple and Jerusalem destroyed……that happened.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:24
Jews would be sent from their land…….that came to pass.
My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. Hosea 9:17
Jews to be persecuted around the world…….that came to pass.
And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong. Zechariah 8:13
Jews would be preserved……..through all their trials they are still here.
Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished. Jeremiah 46:28
Those who hate the Jews would live in their land Israel……..that’s true, they are there.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savor of your sweet odors.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Leviticus 26:31-33
Jews lived and scattered around the globe…….yes that’s true.
My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. Hosea 9:17
Jews would once again regain Israel as their rightful home…….and there they are in Israel.
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers. Jeremiah 16:14-15
Today the Jews are back in their own land, ISRAEL. These Prophecies are PROOF as to what was spoken thousands of years ago. You cannot dispute the proof of the Scriptures……….IF you search, you will find, if you listen you will understand, and be blessed to know the TRUTH of God’s Holy Word.
Christ died for all of you, its up to you to believe in the Son of God for Salvation. The Prophecy of Jesus being born and dying, was foretold in Isaiah 53
Report comment to moderator
#163. Victoria
That is the one I wrote to you about beforehand and explained. Any generation will feel that way. This is Jeanne Dixon stuff. Knowledge will continue to grow. men will continue to run to and fro. Each generation will think it is smarter and more knowledgeable that the last one. It is a weak prophecy. You couldn’t even mention the one about there will be wars and rumors of wars. Duh! Anybody can see that about humanity.
You are showing me Christians say stuff and believe it is true but don’t know how to back it up or defend it. You need to read the book and not just listen to what the preacher says. He will always put a happy face on it.
Other religions expound weak prophecies as well. Islam says some of the signs of the last days are when orators lie openly, when women become irresponsible for the care of their children, when violence and bloodshed are common, when greed becomes the order of the day, and interestingly when it is hot in winter. The latter is the only one that has some teeth to it. The ones before it are subjective. Any generation can identify with it.
How about Jesus not coming back in the first generation when He said He would? You didn’t even respond to that one.
Report comment to moderator
Exminister – you aren’t making any ground with your arguments.
Have you visted all the exminister.org blogs, etc ?
Report comment to moderator
Let’s see:
The Bible is true because the Bible tells us it is true.
Humans are the only animals (and we are by most indications animals, who just happened to evolve enough to think rationally, almost as much as we rationalize) who are able to understand our own mortality, a realization that dismays us.
Although the entire story is complex, at heart religion exists because we deny our own death, and strive to convince ourselves that our life exists and ends for some reason that makes it meaningful.
Most of the theology splitting and Bible interpretation people at wmb spend hours wrestling with is explained in a much simpler way if we just interpret as a horror based on the realization we die.
The second part of the equation is sociobiology. We are “genes in tight jeans,” creatures who find justification for our existence in making or even raising (though adoption) little copies of ourselves. The huge overpopulation of the world; the obsessive horror at the thought of abortion (and even many kinds of birth control) all make much more sense than the incoherent explanations provided here at worldmagblog.
Report comment to moderator
#155 ExMinister “You are showing me Christians say stuff and believe it is true but don’t know how to back it up or defend it.”
The same can be said for you. You haven’t disproven anything. The sum total of your argument is that you aren’t convinced by what the Bible says and you expect to find extra-biblical evidence which you have deemed to be missing. In other words, your proof is a lack of evidence. That is no proof at all. And so your arguments aren’t convincing anyone here either. So what is your motive?
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, your post at 154 about the fulfilled prophecies was good. But don’t waste your time on these guys — it really comes down to a matter of faith. Either they believe Jesus is the Way or they don’t. And you can’t give them faith. That comes from within, their own choice. They evidently choose not to believe.
Report comment to moderator
#154, VICTORIA, #158 XION, #159 NJLAWYER,
Interesting no one want to defend Jesus statements about his statement regarding this generation and some of His listeners will not die before he returns.
NJLAWYER (#159) is correct. This faith cannot be defended it comes down to a matter of faith even as Paul said. I need harder evidence. Feel I was given a brain for using. I see only issues with my brain being cryogenically frozen in the Bronze age.
Victoria (#154) picked an interesting example. There might be none better because it is something we can see and not backfilled like the story of Jesus.
Good job.
Israel itself.
The Queen of England under whom Jewish prime minister Disraeli asked him whether or not
there was any proof for the existence of God. Disraeli answered the Queen: “The Jew, your Majesty, the Jew.”
I have been reviewing the timing of Jewish history and the author quoted (Hosea, Jeremiah, Luke)
Hosea 9:17
My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. He was referring to what he saw. Assyrians destruction of the Northern Kingdom, what he calls Samaria and Ephraim, happened in his lifetime. He was assuredly warning Judah. Also this is not a startling prediction because there have been countless human groups wandering among the nations who were persecuted and enslaved. See Diaspora.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The book of Luke was written between 70AD and 130 AD. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70AD. Another eye witness.
Jeremiah 16:14-15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
In his day he would be fully aware of the fall of the Northern Kingdom but it is not certain where he knew of the Babylonian invasion and destruction of the 1st temple. Could he have been predicting the return around 539 BCE when the 2nd temple was dedicated? His direct mention of north makes this more probable than 1948 when they came from all directions.
Why is Israel back to its homeland today? Did God send a Moses and perform many miracles? Did he use a Joshua to take over the land and even stopping the sun one day so he could get some killing done?
No.
It was through the rise of Zionism, Christian nations having many Jews in the political process, the US becoming a superpower, England being a US ally, and the diaspora of the arabs, the state of Israel was established. Let’s call it self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you will, it is no fairy tale – Theodor Herzl, visionary of Zionism.
if you will it, dude, it is no dream – Walter Sobchak
The scary part is many fundamentalist think this area is where Armageddon will occur. Wouldn’t they like to see that happen so Jesus can return? Didn’t Judas betray Jesus to force Jesus to show his power?
Report comment to moderator
Honestly and truthfully, Exminister, I don’t care what you need. I care what I need. I doubt you are an ex-minister, mainly because of your questions in the last paragraph of #160. A minister would already know the answers to those questions.
Report comment to moderator
But let set ONE thing straight — there is no such thing as a Christian nation. Do you see Jesus running one? I don’t. Never have. You suffer from the age old problem of seeing Jesus Christ through the lens of politics, kinda sorta like Judas. But don’t hang yourself.
Report comment to moderator
“..Jesus statements..”
exmin
—–
exmin,
Yes, all of the NT is infallible.
ALL of the WORDS are God’s Words. It is HIS revelation.
ALL statements regarding His coming are part of His LIVING WORD.
AFTER you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, understanding of Biblical passages will begin to become possible for you.
Unfortunately, that is not the case YET.
“As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2Pe 3:16)
But, you still have a little time.
Don’t buy the atheist folly.
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” (2Th 2:11)
Report comment to moderator
“..is explained in a much simpler way if we just interpret as a horror based on the realization we die..”
r.n.
—–
random,
The atheist seeks to dodge the REAL issue. They like to giggle over pastry in the Titanic cafe, ignoring deep problems down below.
“And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from WITHIN, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from WITHIN, and defile the man.” (Mr 7:20-23)
Hitchens missed it.
SIN is the problem and the poison.
And the “evolution industrial complex” folks rage against that reality.
YET, there’s always hope in Jesus Christ.
Even for island dwellers.
Report comment to moderator
#161 I am with you NJLawyer.
If the ex-minister were in fact an ex-minister one would think he would already know the answer to his own question. Although, there are plenty of current ministers even my town who can barely answer the simplest questions about the Bible. So it is a possibility.
According to the Bible, there is no such thing as an ex-Christian (1 John 2:19). There are plenty of people who played church for a while. Some of these go quietly while others decide to spend the rest of their lives tormenting the people they once served. They dabbled in truth, but decided that their own imagination is far superior and worthy of worship (Romans 1). They despise those who still have faith.
Report comment to moderator
#162. NJLAWYER
Christian means a follower of Christ. It doesn’t mean Jesus is in charge. I doubt you are a lawyer. I would expect you to know the difference. Thanks for the advice. I will do what I can not to hang myself. Too funny.
#163. 2cents (2Th 2:11) – so God is the source of my delusion. Interesting. Perhaps he is the source of yours as well. I don’t buy your folly or anyone else’s. I have my own, thank you very much.
Report comment to moderator
BINGO – they trip themselves up if given enough time -
Report comment to moderator
bUZzY –
Your concept of “spiritual death” isn’t in the story.
You also get details wrong. “Because you have done this” is addressed to the snake, not Adam & Eve, right?
You fail to appreciate the extent to which Gen. 3 presents God as just another devious-devising diety of the ancient world. (Academics say the author of “J” was a woman.)
Indeed, all Eve got was an “increase” in pain. If that goes up to a 9 from a 4, we’ve now got episiotomies and naproxin sodium. A slap on the wrist. Furthermore, we’re smart enough to figure out that the pain isn’t a punishment, it’s the worth-while price of the increased size of homo-sapiens’ cranium — actually the price of prolonging the gestation of the incredibly immature human newborn.
It’s unAmerican to boo-hoo about hard work.
The curse upon the snake is obvious folk-lore. The reptiles didn’t start crawling to be more vulnerable to women’s stomping. They were never bipedal. The ground isn’t cursed. People in all cultures regard the earth as incredibly good. Life is splendidly adapted to the earth.
The God of Genesis 3 is a short-sighted literary character who who blames His predicament on other characters and hides his inadequacy. He’s no worse than the humans, but certainly no better, either. He falsely implies that the tree itself is fatal (as opposed to disobedience in general). Eve didn’t drop dead the day she ate it, as God said she would.
That’s just what’s in the story, BUZZY. Ask any Rabbi.
I know it sounds like I’m dissing God, one of my favorite literary characters. After claiming credit for creating the universe, He does an impressive job of making people believe He runs it. Maybe this would be a better world if He did. That’s worth considering. Alas, He doesn’t. But on the other hand, if He did, we couldn’t like Him nearly as much. So we might as well make the best of it.
The Jews were smart enough to retire Him. By the end of their Bible, the prophets were much the stronger characters. In comparison, God sounded whiney, redundant and a second-rate imitation of His earlier Self. But He had a tremendous run while it lasted (”I am that I am” etc.), and He is one of my favorites. I love God, start to finish.
Report comment to moderator
#167 Victoria.
Please look up rhetorical question.
I was not asking I was telling.
Report comment to moderator
I wasn’t posting to you – you certainly confuse yourself.
Just to clue you in – NJLawyer is a Lawyer, it’s not surprising that you aren’t able to see it, …. you appear to miss a lot of what is truth.
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
All of the Bible is infallible FACT.
This, of course, includes Genesis.
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9)
The reason you will die is due to your fallen spiritual condition..without God and without hope..
“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:” (Eph 2:12)
BUT, that could change someday.
Don’t opt for the Lake of Fire.
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
One could hear the voice of the Serpent through a man..
“Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.” (Lu 22:3)
Where else might the Serpent’s reasonings be heard in our day?
:-O
Report comment to moderator
scroop,
You seem to slip in some evolution fantasy.
Supposed evolutionists assume living cells without a spiritual base…
..there’s never been any of those.
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” (Mr 10:6)
Report comment to moderator
“..Ask any Rabbi…”
scroop
—–
scroop,
No. Help the Rabbi out.
Don’t leave him all confused by the Serpent.
The Rabbi needs to become a NEW CREATION in Christ.
THEN he’ll be able to understand for the first time.
“And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Then OPENED he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” (Lu 24:44-45)
And he’ll KNOW the peace and joy found in Jesus Christ.
Then YOU can listen to the new Christian.
Report comment to moderator
ScroopMoth,
I’m guessing you’ve read God: A Biography by Jack Miles. (At least that’s the only place I’ve seen the ideas in your last paragraph in #168.) It certainly was interesting reading, though in a “what a strange idea” sort of way.
Report comment to moderator
Scroop – if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re starting from a form of “Judaism” that even denies the veracit of the Tenach, and is fundamentally atheistic. Thus, if your point is that Christianity is not atheistic, I’ll willingly yield it to you.
Report comment to moderator
I can’t take it, Victoria. There are some people who are just not worth it. It’s time to shake the dust off my feet.
Report comment to moderator
NJL – I agree!
Report comment to moderator
Yes, Pauline, I’m indebted to Jack Miles, or is it Karen Armstrong? Also to the marginally more highbrow Harold Bloom (who is not the most substantive literary critic, but at least a formidable reader!) I’ve also sounded out the Bible with my own ear and am pretty sure that most readers would hear the difference between God in his salad days and in his last, OT utterances.
Buzzy – Recognizing the God of the Bible for a literary character doesn’t make you an atheist, just as denying that Santa Claus is “real” isn’t a renunciation of generosity. I understand where you come from, however. God is a most unique literary character, to claim existence as essential to his character. Still literary, though. Which is no mean thing!
Report comment to moderator
SM – to paraphrase Flannery O’Connor, if God is just a literary character, then to hell with him.
Report comment to moderator
Exminister, #71:
Forgive me, but you seem to be playing fast and loose with dates here. AD 161-180? This seems to me a bit outside of the time of Christ. I understand there is a slight discrepancy, (Gregory was apparently mistaken as to the exact year of Christ’s birth), but this is on the order of 3 years, not 120.
Secondly, you say that these people do not mention Christ or miraculous events. You seem to be assuming we have the complete works of all of these figures. I’m willing to bet that this is absolutely not the case.
And then, you assume that Jesus would instantly have made big “news.” Indeed, you later claimed that today, the news would be “viral.” This may be the case, but I’m sure you know that today, we have little things like the internet, television, phones, means of transportation, and in short, absolutely unparalleled access to information and news from around the world. Holding the 1st century AD world to modern standards of communication is beyond ridiculous.
Actually, because of the Roman Empire, Christianity and news of Jesus did spread with rather unprecedented speed and thoroughness.
Report comment to moderator
Oh, and also, you assume that we must have every applicable source both mention the same thing and agree completely about every detail of that thing in order to verify anything about that thing. This has never happened in the history of the world, and is a standard to which nothing else is held.
Report comment to moderator
About Matthew 24:34: it says right in the notes when I looked this verse up that “generation” can also be read “race.” Also, this verse seems to be related to the next one, which says that “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” This may suggest that perhaps Jesus was referring to a “generation” not of people, but of the world.
About Mark 9:1: I immediately thought of two things: First, that the Bible often refers to “death” and means the “death” of the spiritual, eternal variety, (perhaps Jesus was saying that some of those listening would be saved?) and second, that “the Kingdom of God come with power” is a bit vague, and could perhaps refer to Christianity’s spread through the Roman world.
Final disclaimer: these are my initial thoughts, and I am not a Greek scholar.
Report comment to moderator
Also (not having read anything but the last three posts on this thread), “the Kingdom of God come with power” seems as if it could well apply to seeing Jesus rise from the dead, which did happen well within the lifetimes of those standing there. In fact, I’d guess that they all lived to see His resurrection, and that there is little that I can think of which shows God’s Kingdom and power better.
Report comment to moderator
Hadn’t thought of it that way, TRS! Very good.
And good point, #182.
Report comment to moderator
#181, #183 TJS Catlover. #183 TRS
This takes the teeth out of the prophecy by spiritualizing it or assuming Jesus meant he will come at the end of the world. It is comforting to a believer, but it removes it as something that can be validated. This reminds me of William Miller who had studied the book of Daniel and the Revelation and had concluded that Jesus was going to return on Oct 22, 1844. People sold their worldly good and went up on a mountain in New York state waiting for His return. Then it didn’t happen. Later they spiritualized it by saying that it is when Christ went from the outer sanctuary of the temple in heaven to the inner sanctuary. This the high priest did once a year on Yom Kippur, the day of Judgement. So, they said from that day Jesus in heaven is judging every human being.
So, prophecies are weak that cannot be validated. Of course I understand for a believer that is enough. A matter of faith.
“Fast and loose on the dating”. Yes. Studying how Bible dating is done is not as solid as you might think. We do not have any original Biblical documents and in some cases not the original language the book was written in. So scholars with varying viewpoints study all historical artifacts. They look at a given book of the Bible and see what the book “knows”. They look for references to leader of countries or events like earthquakes, etc. They have other archeological evidence to determine roughly when those leaders lived. In my prior post of ancient literature where Jesus is not mentioned, you can see there are wide date ranges on some authors. It is hard to know. Carbon 14 dating cannot be used because there is no original documents. So after cross referencing all the available data they sit and look at the evidence. Now a fundamentalist/literalist wants to believe that something was prophesied before the event so they go with an earlier date. A non-fundamentalist or someone who looks at the Bible as literature would push the date later, thinking the author could not know otherwise.
So when the prophecy is so close to the actual event it comes down to which side of the fence you want to fall.
An honest Christian would provide full disclosure when they say every Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled. They would say for the believer they all have come true but there is no hard evidence for them or they are meant spiritually. And further note that the Christian community does not entirely agree on what they think each prophecy means particularly Ezekiel, Daniel and the Revelation of John.
Report comment to moderator
Who has stated that ” every Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.” ?
I’ve never heard one Christian Believer say such a thing. Who are they?
Report comment to moderator
#187 VICTORIA
Geez. You come up with the craziest things. I had a line in there saying yes I know that some are yet to be fulfilled but every one that could be fulfilled has been without exception,, but I took it out because I figured readers would understand and it would reduce the wordiness. Oh well.
Report comment to moderator
Yeah right…..
Report comment to moderator
One site says this. I did not do the caps.
THERE ARE APP. 10,285 PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE AND EVERY ONE UP TO THIS TIME HAS COME TRUE WITHOUT ONE SINGLE EXCEPTION
A nice addition would be for the believer. Hard evidence is not available. Or some Christians might not agree with some of these. But it might be too much to ask for honesty.
Report comment to moderator
#189 VICTORIA
Always straining at a gnat and missing the big picture. You are becoming quite predictable.
Report comment to moderator
Shake the dust off your feet, Victoria.
Report comment to moderator
NJL – the dust flew just a short time ago.
Report comment to moderator
exmin,
God has providentially preserved HIS Word perfect in the Bible. This is true from autographs through apographs. It cannot be otherwise. The original autographs are not needed.
All is God centric.
The preservation of HIS Living Word is nothing short of miraculous. He who inspired His Word, preserves His Word.
“For with God nothing shall be impossible.” (Lu 1:37)
He will be faithful to His Promise..
“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (2Pe 3:12-14)
“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.” (Mr 13:31)
Report comment to moderator
All of God’s prophetic Word will be fulfilled.
“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Re 19:15-16)
All atheist cardiac muscle will shut down.
Thus, be ready.
“And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry. But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Lu 12:19-21)
:-O
Report comment to moderator
The prophecies in the Bible aren’t geared to please smug skeptics who prance around congratulating themselves about their own intellectual prowess. They are designed specifically to confound such people.
For example, it is easy for skeptics and intellectual snobs to pooh pooh the hundreds of pointers to God’s manifestation in the flesh, but that is precisely the point. Babes filled with the Spirit have no trouble navigating the deep which calls unto deep.
Jesus rejoiced as I do that self-possessed self-infatuated blowhards will one day realize their own error. The wisdom of the ages, of nature and of our own internal spiritual identity will someday be vindicated.
Report comment to moderator
Brothers & Sisters: There is no need to engage scoffers. They are not interested in the truth, but in scoffing. Life will not be awareded according to the bullying spirits of this world, but according to the wisdom of the Most High. There is even a passage in the Bible about such people – First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:3-9). From “deliberately forget,” we surmise that their unbelief is willful. Therefore, you will not get anywhere with them through solid proofs or argumentation, although your efforts are an encouragement to all the faithful, as are the Scriptures that Mytoosense quotes, even if they are despised by unbelievers.
Report comment to moderator
The above is not to suggest that all unbelievers are scoffers. A few who post here are polite and discuss issues in good faith. But we can all tell the difference between them and mere scoffers.
Report comment to moderator
Therefore, you will not get anywhere with them through solid proofs . .
When Christ returns, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, but until then, you cannot prove that He will. You may believe that He’ll come back, but you probably shouldn’t accuse unbelievers of willfully rejecting “proof” of a future event.
Also, unbelievers have a positive defense. Quite a few passages in the NT, if you take them at face value, do indeed seem to predict the time. The implied best-if-used-by date is long past. It’s unfair to blame unbelievers for this embarrassment. They are not the ones insisting that the Bible was written for all times and places.
Report comment to moderator
SM – my comments were directed at scoffers, not all unbelievers. As articulated in the passage that I quoted from 2 Peter, these people “willfully forget.” Interestingly, the Bible never says that pagans generally are characterized by forgetfulness, but rather, by a lack of gratitute. Apostates, on the other hand, are characterized by forgetfulness. In my experience, these are the people most likely to have a scoffing attitude, and I really have no interest in conversing with them on theological matters. FWIW, as I’ve said or implied before, I don’t consider you to be a scoffer. My perception is that you post in good faith and I enjoy reading your arguments.
Report comment to moderator
This takes the teeth out of the prophecy by spiritualizing it or assuming Jesus meant he will come at the end of the world.
******Uh…didn’t do either.
In my case, I suggested that it was literally fulfilled by the resurrection. Wasn’t “spiritualized” nor deferred. Pretty plain.
Nice way to try to avoid the issue by claiming we said something we didn’t. Is that how you try to win a debate? Just fail to accurately represent what the other side is saying?
But, what else would I expect from an apostate and someone who obviously doesn’t know the Bible as well as the average home school student?
Report comment to moderator
Oh, and TJS Catlover was simply translating the word correctly and suggesting (correctly) that it can also mean “race.” Also not “spiritualizing.” A very plain, reasonable interpretation that takes ALL teeth out of your supposed “problem.”
When there are many plausible interpretations, that do not require hardly even a half-hearted effort to understand, and that make the Bible read with complete accuracy, it takes a very hard-headed and hard-hearted person, who obviously has an agenda, to purposely and regularly take the ONE possible negative interpretation every time.
Report comment to moderator
Typically, 21st Jerichonians like to wait for the final proof.
They feel it’s the “safest” way for their families, all tucked in within the walls.
“And Joshua adjured [them] at that time, saying, Cursed [be] the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest [son] shall he set up the gates of it.” (Jos 6:26)
Well, not all..
“By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. (Heb 11:31)
As usual, the infallible Bible provides THE answers for every generation.
Report comment to moderator
I provided multiple discussion points including the difference between what is an acceptable level of evidence for a believer and non-believer. But instead of discussing the points this happens instead:
VICTORIA needs to say yet again she is going to dust her feet. She has a real problem sticking to that. Good thing NZLAWYER keeps reminding her.
MYTWOSENSE continues to throw out Bible text and no one is listening.
XION reverts to name calling and says God is not interested in intelligence.
BUZZY wants everyone to dust their feet and engages in name calling and doesn’t want to talk to THOSE people going on about exactly who they are.
TRS goes to name calling and belittling.
Kudos to TJS Catlover who was willing to discuss the prophecy in question.
Everybody swarms to comfort themselves that they are OK and have spurned the evil doer. Good job everyone. I am quite impressed with the depth of your faith.
So on your mark, get ready, GO, say it again.
Report comment to moderator
exmin,
ALL of the Bible is infallible FACT.
Always dump Bible critical information created by the antichrists and sin defenders.
There is reason you’re not listening.
You must be drawn first..
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (Joh 6:44-45)
Perhaps someday you’ll leave the non-redeemed, note-taking hobby from the bleachers, and come to Christ. THEN insights on the prophetic time table will become possible for youl
Report comment to moderator
TRS goes to name calling and belittling.
******Yet, just who completely misrepresented what TJS Catlover had said and what I had said?
It isn’t name-calling when it is simply pointing out a fact.
Report comment to moderator
“Jesus rejoiced as I do that self-possessed self-infatuated blowhards will one day realize their own error. The wisdom of the ages, of nature and of our own internal spiritual identity will someday be vindicated.”
–Whoa there. I’d say Jesus feels nothing of the sort. He is heartbroken that people reject Him, not happy that they are damned for their choice. Nor am I. And if you need to be vindicated by their damnation, then you’re doing something wrong. Please, rephrase or rethink what you’re saying here.
Victoria, NJL: I’m beginning to be seriously sorry that verse ever came up. No one is forcing you to continue any sort of discussion. And it serves no purpose (other than to let us all know how holy and righteously angry you are, which I hope is not your motive) to continually post about how you’re shaking dust off your feet. Besides, the verse doesn’t really apply. It was about the apostles who didn’t receive welcome. It was not about blogs where a poster is annoyed by opposing arguments. If anything, it should be taken as a reminder to be welcoming.
We can do better than all that, anyway. Think about it: we believe Christianity is right. Whatever Exminister or anyone else brings up can only be helpful. Personally, I believe that since it is right, there is an answer for anything that fits with Christianity. And I’d like to know what’s out there, so that I can figure out how to answer it.
Report comment to moderator
A Christian is a completed Jew.
Report comment to moderator
An Imam becomes an incomplete Jew, first?
Then qualifies to receive Christ to be a completed Jew??
Haven’t heard that one.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's blogs to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!