A Palin skeptic takes a second look
The Obamacare victory has changed the presidential race for 2012. The question for Republicans in choosing a candidate to go up against the sitting president is: Who has the skill, the vision, the mettle, and the integrity to drive this Behemoth back into the churning sea of political evils from whence it came? Obviously, Mitt Romney, who as governor gave Massachusetts a monster with similar features, is beyond consideration. Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels may yet rise to the call of his historic duty and serve. Or not.
But some will shout from the back of the room, “Sarah Palin!” And some others of us (who are looking in at the room from the street through the windows) are accustomed to dismissing that notion with a knowing “whatever” of political sagacity. She hasn’t the intellectual preparation even at the most basic level of popular reading and general knowledge, as the Katie Couric interview during the campaign demonstrated. Aside from that, she has clearly abandoned political ambition in favor of the lucrative world of infotainment. Once a political figure signs on as a news analyst (to say nothing of reality shows), he or she has chosen the one-way political off-ramp. Mike Huckabee has made this choice. Talk show hosts do not become presidents.
But anything can happen in politics. No less than the sage of neo-conservatism, Norman Podhoretz (who was interviewed by Marvin Olasky in the current WORLD), has jolted this Palin skeptic into a second look at her potential suitability as a candidate “for such as time as this.” In a Wall Street Journal article, “In Defense of Sarah Palin,” Podhoretz concedes from the start that Sarah Palin is “no Ronald Reagan,” and he is not necessarily suggesting that she would make a great president. Nonetheless, she has qualities that are and have been dangerously missing in Democratic presidents over the last 35 years:
“Take, for example, foreign policy. True, she seems to know very little about international affairs, but expertise in this area is no guarantee of wise leadership. After all, her rival for the vice presidency, who in some sense knows a great deal, was wrong on almost every major issue that arose in the 30 years he spent in the Senate.
“What she does know—and in this respect, she does resemble Reagan—is that the United States has been a force for good in the world, which is more than Barack Obama, whose IQ is no doubt higher than hers, has yet to learn. Jimmy Carter also has a high IQ, which did not prevent him from becoming one of the worst presidents in American history, and so does Bill Clinton, which did not prevent him from befouling the presidential nest.”
While expertise in international affairs doesn’t guarantee wise leadership, I’m far from convinced there can be wise leadership without at least many years of adult attention to the ups and downs of national and international political life, whether directly or by reading great accounts of it.
Podhortez’s point, however, emphasizes the indispensable value of a moral and political orientation that’s consistent with our form of government, supports our political tradition, and recognizes the harsh realities of dealing with nations that reject our politics and basic moral outlook. She has that. And while ill-read, she is not ill-bred. Though her native intelligence may not be Bill Clinton’s, she’s clearly a fast learner and was plenty sharp enough to master Alaska politics and the oil companies up there.
In other words, if what the country needs to pull us out of our free fall into European social democracy is someone with a solid center in classical republican principles as well as the skill, vision, mettle, and integrity to pull it off politically, Sarah Palin may be the one to do it.
I’m not convinced, but I’m listening.

















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back to top188 Comments to “A Palin skeptic takes a second look”
How do we KNOW that her IQ isn’t higher that Clinton’s or
Carter’s or Reagan’s, or, for that matter, Obama’s???
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We know.
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In other words, I want a steady, intelligent boring candidate with common sense.
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That is not enough to slip Palin on the ticket. I would be very disappointed if the GOP moved in that direction.
I’ve watched her since she has been on FOX lately, – I’m not impressed – one of the reasons is the comical-flip, which when inserted in many of her comments, sounds high ’school friendly’ running for class president –
I was very much for Palin when McCain picked her as his running mate, however, very early this year, I noticed something which I’m sure others have too,… I will wait for awhile before I say much more. I am disappointed in her, …… there is some credit coming to someone who has yet to receive it, in my opinion.
I agree she learns fast, but there is so much more to being a president or VP of this country. She doesn’t have the experience, it’s just that simple.
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Palin walked away from a State whose debt amounted to 70% of its GDP — the worst deficit of any State — to say “Hell no” for personal income.
Go for it, folks. I’m begging you.
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I’m with RonDu. Obama has done nothing to prove he has a high IQ. Affirmative action selection at Columbia, no transcripts to back up any claims of intelligence.
Author of two books – or was he? Some claim they were ghostwritten. Mentions 57 states on the campaingn trail, and just this week spoke of health care provisions for children which aren’t in the bill he just signed.
Wait, I forgot. He can read from a teleprompter. Never mind; I guess that puts an end to the discussion.
I’m still not sure about Palin, but she shows far more common sense than Obama will ever have. I suppose it comes down to what is more important for the President to have – intelligence or common sense.
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Obviously, Mitt Romney, who as governor gave Massachusetts a monster with similar features, is beyond consideration.
D.C.INNIS needs to disclose whether he ever said such a thing during the Republican primary.
I doubt he’ll be able to use JOEL MARK’s phony excuse, “a lot of us don’t have time to present full policy statements agreeing or disagreeing with every governor in every state.”
The problem isn’t Romney. The problem is the Republican Party’s political opportunism in attacking Obama over something it ignored when a Republican implemented it — and bragged about it. Why wasn’t that disqualifying then?
Republicans ignored and overlooked the monster in 2008 and all during the legislative debate of the last year because it was the “blue dress” of their opposition. As long as they Obamacare was stalled, Republicans could tell themselves ithe blue dress didn’t exist. But now that Obamacare has been signed into law, and has an objective reality apart from Republican’s worst imaginings, everyone can see its resemblance to the blue dress, its fraternal twin, Romenycare.
Sarah can’t backtrack from her calls for repeal, yet even she herself can’t disown the blue dress.
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If any Democrat had strong-armed all those poor oil companies in Alaska the way Sarah did, all the Rs would be calling her a socialist. The oil industry is for Alaska a huge reliable cash cow. How conservatives can cheer Palin’s handling of the state’s oil producters is beyond me.
As I tell friends, never in my wildest imagination could I ever conceive of Fred Thompson or Mitt Romney eliciting the visceral reactions Palin gets from the likes of Maher, Olberman etc. I think beneath all their yuk-yukking these men see Palin as someone to be feared in a way that no male R man could ever be.
Still I tend to see America’s Thatcher in the likes of Marsha Blackburn or Michelle Bachmann– both of those are entirely off the chattering class’s radar screen.
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Palin traded in her political future for a job as an entertainer. She is not the future of the Republican party (or any party for that matter). Period.
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D.C Innes wrote; “But some will shout from the back of the room, “Sarah Palin!” And some others of us (who are looking in at the room from the street through the windows) are accustomed to dismissing that notion with a knowing “whatever” of political sagacity.”
Huh? Unclear writing.
D.C Innes wrote; “She hasn’t the intellectual preparation even at the most basic level of popular reading and general knowledge…”
Huh? Unintelligent and prejudicial writing.
D.C Innes wrote; “Once a political figure signs on as a news analyst (to say nothing of reality shows), he or she has chosen the one-way political off-ramp.”
Perhaps, but probably only if you are a Republican.
D.C Innes wrote; “Talk show hosts do not become presidents.”
How about US senators? The earth’s most hateful radio talk show host was able to get elected to the senate because he was a Democrat and hard-line leftists and the ‘Independents’ gave zero thought to the mindless political passions in Minnesota. (also because the Dems cheated egregiously with absentee ballots and other post election “discoveries.”
Intellectually and verbally, Sarah Palin ran circles around Joe Biden in the debate. But not much credit to Sarah there. That was as easy as changing diapers.
Palin’s “moral and political orientation” is her best asset.
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Sawgunner wrote; “If any Democrat had strong-armed all those poor oil companies in Alaska the way Sarah did, all the Rs would be calling her a socialist.”
There is far more to socialism than a strong arm. It’s an discernable ideology. Most “R” reserve the term “socialist” for actual socialists, Sawgunner–Like Barack Obama.
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This should be fun.
With the at beast luke warm support from the conservative posters in this blog and a set of political and business actions which will be interesting to explain, and there are people who still believe she could provide a serious challenge to Obama?
Very curious.
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I like Mitt Romney overall, but I agree with D.C.INNIS’s implication that fate has brought the health care issue (Romney’s record is weakest on this issue for conservatives) to a point of prominence that will mitigate against Romney’s success.
But Romney’s record on health care must be considered in the context of Massachusetts politics (he has explained that well for those who listen to such things). As their Governmor, he was able to pull back a lot of radical nonsense that the Dems wanted in the name of health care. But the fact remains, his record there will hurt Rmoney’s chances in the Republican primary and to some degree, rightly so. I want a candidate who will fight to repeal the damage the Dems have done and I look forward to hearing what Romney has to say about this.
I did hear Romney offer an extremely intelligent opposing view and criticque of Obamcare.
Romney’s best asset is his expertise on the economy and his understanding of the value of the private sector in making America strong. He is great on social justice issues, in that he knows it is unjust to take too much of the fruit of one’s labor from the laborer to empower and ingraciate politicans and make more citizens dependent on the gov’t.
Romney is a great executive and he did well to get the Olympics out of serious economic trouble. Romney is still the best choice with regard to pulling us back for ridiculous and suicidal spending and debts.
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With a Republican party which appears to be dominated by conservative ideologues and which now appears to bent on ideological purity, Romney has a chance?
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“Talk show hosts do not become presidents.”
Says who? A bunch of know-it-alls that didn’t think an actor could get elected either. If we’d have believed you guys, Ronald Reagan wouldn’t have ever been president.
Run one for the gipper Palin…
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On this blog, a lot of us don’t take time or have interest for presenting full policy statements agreeing or disagreeing with every issue for ever politician or candidate in every state.
If Scroop Moth wanted to know something about something or someone in the past, he/she could’ve asked. In my observation, conservatives on this blog are a lot more responsive to questions asked by leftists than our resident leftists are at responding respectfully or intelligently to our questions and concerns.
But if Scroop Moth thinks it is an actual argument to complain that a topic was not addressed as much as he or she thinks others should have addressed it, than that should how few arguments Scroop Moth has in the first place. statement on a particular point
The matter was far from ignored thugh. Health care probably hurt Romney’s chances in the last primary which he lost to McCain. The issue was well vetted for those who listen.
But criticizing Obama is a patriotic right and we need much more of that.
Scroop Moth’s “blue dress” comments are unintelligible and ill-conceived.
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I’d much rather have Palin in the white house than the socialist in charge now… At least we wouldn’t have had this massive deficit looming over our heads, and this healthcare debacle…
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Musing (#12),
Fair question regarding Palin. If the primaries were held over the next three months, I don’t think she would win. I’m not sure if she would even place in the top three.
But, according to my search, Obama declared his candidacy for President on February 10, 2007. Did anyone really think he could win the nomination, let alone the Presidency, back then?
Too many things can happen over the next 30 months to start predicting elections now.
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Joel Mark post 16,
actually the number of questions asked by what is sometimes referred to as the liberal contingent and not answered by the conservatives would appear to be, if you look over the history of posts in this blog, quite high.
I am for example still waiting for the objective evidence for the world wide flood, and we can continue.
Scroop has I suggest, however, hit a nerve with his comments on health care. The present health care reform is, it would appear, quite similar to the health care reform alternatives offered by the Republicans in response to Hillary Care, and is very similar to Romney Care.
And yet it was only until Obama started pushing health care reform that we began to see the over heated rhetoric on this issue. I suggest Demint spoke most truthfully on this point. The republican opposition appear to have nothing to do with policy and everything to do with:
Demint: health care Obama’s waterloo
making a pure political effort to discredit the president.
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Scott Robinson post 18,
fair observations, although I suggest that Obama started low and climbed high in the polls, and Palin has started high in the polls and plummeted low.
But you are right, we will have to see. Stranger things have occurred.
Still, my sense is that Palin will, if she wins the nomination, repeat her experience in 2008: she energized the base and found disfavor with the independents.
Tactically that would seem to be a favorable position for Democrats and unfavorable to Republicans.
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MIM post 17,
you mean the deficit which was mostly brought to us by Bush?
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Wrong. You haven’t begun to see a deficit yet….
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You wait til these clowns in the current administration get through trashing the economy and then tell me that.
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MIM post 22,
as phrased you are admitting that Bush provided most of it.
You are assuming for the forward looking numbers.
And tell me how well the economy was working in say October 2008?
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A “blue dress” is physical evidence that’s stupidly presumed not to exist and thus not threaten one’s impeachment. In the matter of the Republican campaign against health insurance reform, the Republican DNA all over the legislation they disowned and condemned. The “blue dress” was Romneycare and the Republican contribution to every major part of the insurance rules, coming straight from the Heritage Foundation.
Don’t take my word for it. Ask David Frumm.
Why in the world do you (idiots!) suppose leftists are dismayed by the absence of reforms essential to a left-wing version of universal health care? Because Obamacare is a centrist reform that has more in it for Republicans to like than for Democrats. Why do you (idiots!) suppose Republicans are starting to admit that parts of the bill are good and that various vague “fixes” will be more appropriate than repeal? Because of the blue dress! Republicans can no longer cry wolf over figments of Palin’s imagination (death panels), because the legislation is fixed in print and history. The crime lab can examine the DNA, and the report says Republicans are cheating!
The true reason Republicans never attacked Romney over health care is that it was their idea. Republicans weren’t against it until centrist Democrats were for it. Republican inconsistency is not due to the fact that Romney was an obscure State politician doing local policies that had no claim on your busy attentions, and who can keep up with all 50 governors?
JOEL MARK and maybe D.C. INNES too didn’t make a peep. Fine guardians of America’s political destiny, Republicans are.
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NJ Lawyer said: In other words, I want a steady, intelligent boring candidate with common sense.
While my own politics are more right than left, Palin is no longer an “intelligent boring candidate” but someone who left her office mid-term for unknown reasons. This does not make for “common sense”.
I also hope that she does not run in 2012.
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I think beneath all their yuk-yukking these men see Palin as someone to be feared
Of course Democrats fear her. She’s the Semiramis of American fascism. She’s the racial queen regnant of a vast army of faux feminists who comprise the Tea Party.
Women are the critical voting block for Democrats, and Palin has the potential to lead many of them away on a popular revolt of right-wing iconoclasm.
The idea of Palin as president is unthinkable. It would be as good for us as the sacking of Rome. Total vandalism. She’s Joan of Arc without having been burned at the stake, leading Americans on a crazy, millenarian quest.
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#26 Kimberly 1
“…but someone who left her office mid-term for unknown reasons. “
Palin gave reasons. The most important was that she wasn’t able to do the state’s business because of one person’s lawsuits. Why do I remember it and others do not?
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Bob Buckles popst 28,
many of remember what Palin said she left office for.
Perhaps a more reasonable question is do we find her arguments credible.
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Scroop Moth post 27,
I do suggest that your comments here are a bit over the top. Quite simply, separation of powers would limit the amount of damage she could do.
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Scroop Moth post 27,
as an example, we have the limitations which were put on Bush by separation of powers to look back on.
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Palin would be a disasterous choice to put on any ticket–as history has already shown. She’s interesting, and seems to have a good character overall, but she lacks the depth of knowledge that is needed in politics on the national level. All that was painfully apparent in the last election.
She does have a lot to offer though. She is her own person, and I admire her for that. Also, she is able to speak to the frustrations experienced by conservatives and more rural Americans. The ability to motivate and rally grassroots support without bringing out the uglier side of human nature is a crucial skill in politics. If she’s able to do that, she may continue to have a constructive influence in American politics.
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I agree with Debra that Palin has a lot to offer, but also that she lacks the depth of knowledge. Can that be learned? Sure. But that’s not the route she’s taken. She’s gone on tv rather than making the effort to prove she’s learned what she needs to learn. That’s her choice, and that’s fine. Would I take her over Obama? In a NY minute. But perhaps the American people won’t be taken in this time and will really ask for the candidates to be sifted properly. They have to hold the feet of the MSM to the fire.
I have no idea who will come to the head of the class, so to speak, but anyone who has the temerity to think he can predict the next election really has been looking in the mirror far too much.
I wish Palin well in the career she has chosen.
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Scroop Moth wrote; “In the matter of the Republican campaign against health insurance reform, the Republican DNA all over the legislation they disowned and condemned.”
Blatant nonsesne, Scroop.
1. The Republicans NEVER campaigned against “health reform” at all. They constantly offered better ideas supporting meaningful health care reform but were not only ignored, but lied about by Dems who dishonestly said that Republicans were not offering ideas.
2. The health care debate was opposed on a bi-partisan basis with both Dems and Republicans in opposition. But it was pushed through on a TOTAL partisan basis.
3. The “blue dress” analogy is ridiculous. An intelligent discussion about the health care plan for Massachusetts is an old but worthy topic. But your “blue dress” emoting has little to do with such an intelligent discussion.
4. The “death panels” (or gov’t created “end of life” commisions or counseling) were in the house version of the bill. Palin was honest and correct to bring that topic to the table for discussion (in fact, she got that part scrutinized and taken from the bill). It was the senate (abortion affirming) bill that passed.
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Joel Mark post 34,
and the Demint comment which I have posted several times: “This will be Obama’s waterloo.”
I do believe that you may need some wood working tools to ensure that your nasal structure is well maintained.
P.S. death panels were never in any version of the bill. End of life counseling has been around for quite a while, and you concern was that it would now be paid for?
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SM complained, “JOEL MARK and maybe D.C. INNES too didn’t make a peep. Fine guardians of America’s political destiny, Republicans are.”
Isn’t that just outrageous? To my memory, D.C. Innes did not even make a slight peep about the sex lives of mosquitoes in old carborators in Alabama junk yards during Republican administrations. Good grief!!! What a discrediting scandal!!! Now we must all agree that he has absolutely no right to ever speak up again about anything that ever happens in any US state!!!!
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When the phrase “death panels” was used, it was intended to refer to the end-of-life” counseling which certainly was part of the house bill, and everyone who was listening knew it.
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JOel Mark post 37,
but “death panels” as you call them or end of life counseling as they are more properly called was not in the bill.
All the bill did is to offer to pay for services which were already available.
No matter how you play it Joel Mark this was a significant and intentional misstatement. And is representative of how the entire Republican effort against health care reform was pursued.
And now it is passed and not even the Republicans are seriously arguing for repeal.
Quite simply the lies did not work and increasingly as we see that the world did not end, the public is appearing to understand as well.
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Joel Mark,
your attempt to try to win a battle which has already been decisively lost is indeed truly amusing.
Next you will try to argue that Bush was an economic genius for how he managed the U.S. economy, or that Bush was a tried and true fiscal conservative who tried to rein in the deficits.
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I had elderly parents, and no, “end of life counseling” has not been around for a long time. Never heard it from my friends about their parents either. The real issue here is whether the government has any business in this topic at all. It doesn’t. Yet we still have people bowing to worship at the feet of Obama and throw the Constitution out the window. This worship of government interference in every aspect of a person’s life is nauseating. To still read comments defending it brings on intestinal flu.
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The complete failure of the conservative reign during the Bush years followed by the clear bankruptcy of the conservative approach to opposing Obama on health care etc. should by now perhaps have suggested to the conservatives that perhaps they need a different strategy.
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And be careful when you say you have won the battle — you may be losing the war.
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NJLawyer post 40,
it certainly predates any discussions of the health care reform bill. That you did not hear of it does not mean that it was not available.
The following article is perhaps informative:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/
or how about this:
http://pubrecord.org/politics/3560/palin-backed-end-of-life-counseling/
And we can continue.
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NJlawyer post 42,
ah this argument again. But I suggest NJLawyer the end of this war is already preordained: by the nature of conservatism it is protecting that which was (conserving), and in 20 years I suggest that conservatives will be protecting the health care reform from the tinkering of the then termed fuzzy headed liberals.
I do believe I remember the conservative comments about keeping government hands off of my medicare. :-=)
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She hasn’t the intellectual preparation even at the most basic level of popular reading and general knowledge, as the Katie Couric interview during the campaign demonstrated.
Just a word of advice.
Never say that to me in person.
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montyfisherwoof post 45,
I do suspect you are running a bit close to the edge of allowed behavior here.
If this was said to you in person you would what? Provide reasoned arguments supported by data to show that this observation is incorrect????
Please don’t start being childish.
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NJLawyer post 42,
I fuond the following reference interesting:
: Google history of end of life counseling
Looks like references go back to at least 1991.
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“she’s clearly a fast learner”
Maybe she should go back to school for a few years.
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Sarah Palin’s didn’t choose herself to be McCain’s VP running mate and I don’t fault her for accepting. But Biden should have known better.
Now Biden is the media’s lovable gaffe machine – he just can’t help it and it’s so much more endearing than every lousy foreign policy view he’s had in the past 30 years. Go figure.
I think Palin studied broadcasting in college. If that’s the path she follows, more power to her. She’ll never be on a national GOP ticket and she knows it. So what! People most upset and insulting of her are on the Left and somehow sucker some conservatives on to that bandwagon.
As they say, I might have been born at night – just not last night.
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#38 – “but “death panels” as you call them or end of life counseling as they are more properly called was not in the bill.”
Accoding to reports I heard and sources I trust, it was in an early version of the house bill that was under debate when Sarah Palin brought the topic up.
The gov’t will be making more key life & death decisions than ever before as a result of this bill.
What I do admit is that this is what a huge sector of American sheeple want. They don’t want to make decisions or take responsibility for themselves nearly as much as our forebears did.
Musing, we have a disagreement on the facts–and my conclusion is that it was not a mis-statement at all. In fact, it impacted the re-shaping of the bill. Good debate and Sarah Palin slightly minimized the damage Dems do to America by excercizing her freedom of speech.
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Musing wrote; “Quite simply the lies did not work…”
We disagree again. Lies work all too well in today’s America and leftists know this better than any and employ this strategy for victory. However, in the long run, truth will out. But many innocent people will suffer before truth emerges.
And Musing, I do not recall anyone actually averring that the world would in fact “end.” Please get your information straight.
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JOel Mark post 50,
you can make the assertion:
“Accoding to reports I heard and sources I trust, it was in an early version of the house bill that was under debate when Sarah Palin brought the topic up.”
So your references/documentation backing this up?
Of course since you stated that this was end of life counseling, we have already agreed (your post 37) that funding for it was in the bill. It was not, as you admit, death panels. And it was not developed by the health care reform bill, wiTH end of life counseling as a term going back to at least 1991.
If you disagree, your references?
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Joel Mark,
at least in this case the conservatives lies about the health care reform bill failed, and now we even watch Republicans backing off the early call for repeal and replace.
YOu are right, no one said the world would end. Rather Boehner called it armagedden:
Boehner: its armageddon
Hmm, I thought armagedden was the end of the world. Am I misinformed?
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Accoding to reports I heard and sources I trust, it was in an early version of the house bill that was under debate when Sarah Palin brought the topic up.
Would you please link to the deleted language, JOEL?
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Oh-no, I just posted a relevant Death Panels comment on WV #88, but liberals seem so deperate to counter criticism of their world view they turn a blind eye to and ignore the opposition research on their fatuous arguments against history and common sense. I’ve given up hope for most of these coercive utopians as their disappointment will be inconsolable in the long run – which is to say we don’t know when Obama’s farce will come crashing down and hit all Dems on the head.
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Louise post 55,
I did see your death panel comment. I noted, however, that you also made no links to supporting data.
And your supporting data?
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I am seeing much sturm and drang from the conservatives, but no supporting data for any of their points.
I do believe that they are working hard to demonstrate my observation that conservative seem to confound their belief with arguments supported by data!
Is there a reason why you are working so hard to prove my key argument here????
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MUSING – We’ve been through this charade before, haven’t we? JOEL MARK seems to recall hearing something from a source he must have had positive feelings for, and therefore it’s God’s truth.
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Musing, it is my well-considered opinion. Your desperate appeals for supporting data don’t pass muster of sincerity. You’re spinning your wheels in your own rut which no one could use for intellectual data. A waste of time as a silly smokescreen. You’re welcone to keep on fooling yourself while we have wiser pursuits.
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Scroop MOth post 58,
but I continue to be amuse here.
I am trying to demonstrate that some conservatives have a strong tendency to confound belief with the evidence.
And every time they attempt to refute my statements wihhout providing any supporting data, they demonstrate my point.
So far today it is straight sets with all posts. I can’t believe that I would be generating such clean statistics: correlation would seem to better than 0.99.!!!
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It is hard to know why some people become admired Presidents and some become Presidents regarded with dismay and regret. Obviously intelligence and the ability to turn a phrase, and that ineffable quality we call “charisma” all play a role in baking the cake. In recent times, Reagan and Clinton had some of those qualities. Yet others, such as Carter and Bush Sr are not much admired.
I tend to think there is a quality called “luck” that plays a part. If only we could test Presidential candidates for luck.
Though it may also be a quality called “Teflon.” Considering the Marines lost in Lebanon and the Iran-contra affair and so on, Reagan had plenty of Teflon.
Clinton, on the other hand, seemed to come up a little short in the “stain-remover” department. Life is very odd, both at the macro level and at the micro leve.
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So in regard to Palin (who is renowned for being comfortable with firearms) and her chances to become President, I am reminded of that other lucky guy, “Dirty Harry”
I know what you’re thinking. “Did he fire six shots or only five?” Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you’ve got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Though I am sure Clint Eastwood, who is probably a fine gentleman and very polite to women, would never address a woman as “punk.”
“Babe,” maybe, but not “punk.”
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#54 – “Would you please link to the deleted language, JOEL?”
No.
I have other interests in life too. People will all still think what they want to think. I have not read the 2,700 page bill and don’t claim to be an expert. I have opinions, though, and I listen to people with opinions. My opinion is that you are wrong Scroop Moth. I simply stated the FACT that I heard from sources I trust that the ‘end of life’ counseling (death panels) part was indeed part of the house bill. It’s not absolute knowledge but it is a report I actually heardm trusted and and do believe. You are free not to. And I think Sarah Palin was patriotic and honest to enter the debate on that score.
But the left cannot disagree with her honorably. They have to accuse her of all sorts of what i think is nonsense. I believe that her freedom of speech was employed quite wisely with regard to the “end of life” counseling issue. It was taken out of the bill (according to sources I trust) after she spoke up. I am grateful. I also recognize your right to disagree with her politics. But please decist with the hateful unproven accusation of her lying and making things up.
BTW, I don’t expect you to desist and that is a shame, in my opinion.
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The Republicans generally told the truth, in my opinion, about the huge wealth redistribution (Health Care) bill and still lost. Do we live in a world wherein truth loses and lies win? Yes, but not forever.
Faith does not hang its hat on front end impressions and initial results. Faith seeks the big picture and the long term.
Jesus told and lived the truth and they crucified him (just a comparison to note the temporary seeming weakness of truth on the front end). Jesus and the truth mounted quite a comeback.
But for now, the IRS has been greatly empowered by this bill to enforce a financial police state in America so Democrat politicians can decide what is “fair” (to quote Joe Biden) or not for the sheeple.
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Hey Musing,if you knew how to read the bill you would know that the “deathPanel” is in there!! And as far as Obama making a MISTAKE in saying there are 57 states,,it was no mistake for him!!If you do your homework you will find there are 57 MUSLIM “STATES” or countries in the world!!Now seeing his comment in that light where do his prioroties lie,once you add the fact he has bowed to every muslim king he has come in front of!
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There’s a rush to conclusion, illogical, that education and intelligence are always synonymous.
The fact is, if the bodies presently occupying space in the “higher” institutions of learning were intelligently disseminated, the campuses of this country would resemble ghost towns.
God only knows how many university students would be much better off in trade schools. The conventional wisdom that every child should wind up in a university is idiotic.
Taking this country back will not be easy. Our “schools” are not schools. If any teacher were to do their job, they would teach children the art of critical thinking. Instead, they teach children WHAT to think.
No success will be gained in an effort to save this Republic without throwing out those who are poisoning the minds of our children.
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JOel Mark post 63,
when you say:
“#54 – “Would you please link to the deleted language, JOEL?”
No.”
we see the repeated conservative behavior: extreme charges with no supporting evidence. In short, I suggest the have none.
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JOel Mark post 64,
when you say:
“The Republicans generally told the truth, in my opinion, about the huge wealth redistribution (Health Care) bill and still lost. Do we live in a world wherein truth loses and lies win? Yes, but not forever.”
I point out that the number of unsupported statements about the health care reform bill which were made by Republicans and conservatives was extremely long and your unsupported comment on death panels continues in this tradition.
If you argue something is true, provide the supporting data.
If you can not, then why pray tell do you suggest it should be considered true?
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Langoley post 65,
I read HR 3200 form end to end and have a very dog eared copy of it.
As was noted by Joel Mark, “death panel” is not in that bill, or for that matter any health care reform bill.
It would seem that you are seriously misinformed. Do you have specific references from the bill to support your statement?
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World Magazine makes a strong effort to present a model of reasoned discussion from the conservative Christian right. In the main they do an excellent job of it.
It is therefore amusing when the posters to WMB work so hard to undermine this reasoned approach.
The yet again unsupported discussion on death panels and in the 4-1 Whiled Views on Ayers does much to undo this effort on World Magazines part.
It is fortunate from my perspective that the posters work so hard to show that their positions are not based on fact or logic. It is, I suggest, however, a sad commentary on the argumentation of the right.
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In one of my labored efforts to be funny, I quoted Clint Eastwood’s Dirty Harry character in his famous “Do you feel lucky, Punk?” line. Eastwood is an interesting person and director. Toward the end of his life he has become famous as a director of movies that deal with serious and complex moral and philosophical issues, such as his recent movie about Nelson Mandela, which I saw and found very moving and inspirational.
Not that long ago, I heard an interview with him, in which he spoke of his early success portraying characters such as Dirty Harry and the “Man with No Name” (a kind of nihilist cowboy who settled disputes with violence). He cautioned people against regarding these characters and their violent behavior as representing him and his views on life.
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Langoley post 65,
when I look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries
it appears that there are only 47 countries which are majority muslim. It would seem that there is a discrepancy between your 57 comment and the references I can find.
Can you provide the references showing these 57 muslim countries?
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The truth keeps coming back like a bad penny, eh, Musing? You can’t wish it away. Ayers is who he is, and when it comes to the healthcare bill, that little suit by 4 individuals just may be its undoing…..can’t wait.
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I presume, JOEL, you must have heard from your sources (or intuited on your own) some explication of the synonymy of the terms “care” and “death,” and of the terms “counseling” and “panels,” in order for these amazing equivalences to have accommodated themselves so well with your judgment.
After reading your eloquent reasons for not detaining yourself with links, I must apologize for being so petty about matters of accounting. Large minds don’t suffer the chains which perforce restrict the scope of lesser ones.
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It seems to me that conservatives have been far too intimidated for far too long. When we offer understated criticism out of a desire to use our freedom of speech to make civil progress, we are accused of making extreme charges. Actually, they are correct charges. I have learned that those with the most integrity and conscientious patriotism are those who usually attract the most ire from the left.
But today’s left has succombed to Marxist socialism. Our President belonged for 20 years to a highly politicized “church” that was committed to “Liberation theology,” which is a religiofied euphemism for pure Marxism. His pastor proclaimed his cursing hatred for the USA from his pulpit as the members cheered. Now the redistribution of wealth (Marxism) has been institutionalized in the USA, undermining our Founders to the core and ensuring ongoing social injustice.
Meanwhile, too many conservatives cower in corners intimidated and afraid that a leftist may complain about being criticized.
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Consiervatives do not want the gov’t making crucial health decisions, and the left does, though they claim otherwise. But the content of this IRS empowering wealth redistribution bill (regardless of verbal denials) will empower the gov’t to enforce far more of their will on the people in health matters.
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Musing,
Please do not willfully distort my comments. Your reference to me at #69 was unfaithful to my comments.
I have noted that the reference to “death panels” is a reference to the “end of life” counseiling and commissions which reliable sources claim was (maybe still is) in the bill. I am not the final authority on this. But I am the final authority on what I have written myself, and you are distorting it.
I am an interested citizen who cares that a lot of politicians who voted for this wealth redistribution bill know no more (maybe less) about what is in the bill than you or I know, Musing.
So, share your opinions, but please don’t use my name falsely and in vain.
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NJLawyer post 73,
but please note, as far as I can see, in the main I have not commented on Ayers.
I have noted that the close connection between Obama and Ayers does not seem to have been demonstrated by any of the posters.
It would appear that you are misunderstanding the argument.
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Joel Mark post 77,
if you wish not to be misrepresented, it would probably help to not use the term death panels which is, as both you and I note, not in the bill.
The bill is clear in the use of end of life counseling and if you want to mis-define the bill for your political ends, then I suggest it is you who are misrepresenting.
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Joel Mark post 75,
when you say:
“It seems to me that conservatives have been far too intimidated for far too long. When we offer understated criticism out of a desire to use our freedom of speech to make civil progress, we are accused of making extreme charges”
I suggest you are misrepresenting the situation.
Conservatives can have all the freedom of speech they wish. When they misrepresent the facts or arbitrarily redefine terms to meet their political objectives, it is not an infringement of freedom of speech for them to be called on it.
Rather it is a calling out for individuals misrepresenting the data and the argument.
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End of life care is care of the living.
Critics of our society’s efforts to provide that care for individuals who cannot provide it for themselves, cruelly — most cruelly — sever the word “care” from the words “end of life.” Start saying “end of life care“, you big jerks, instead of “death”, and start saying “counseling” instead of “panels”, and presto, you’ll preserve your souls from more lying about good things.
End of life care is good. Therefore, end of life care counseling is good. Your doctor isn’t a panel. Also.
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Those of us in favor of a second Obama term would LOVE a GOP/Palin candidacy… something about fish in a barrel.
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“End of life care is good.”
Point missed. We have a disagreement over who should be taking responsibility for this and who will do the best job at it. We have a disagreement over who (or what sort of commissions or panels) will be in position to make crucial decisions related to your care and how much you receive and how good it is.
The left thinks money and health care both grow on trees and all you have to do is imagine utopia, trust utopian politicans and become a submissive compliant subject to those who pay for and control your health decisions.
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Joel Mark post 83,
are you arguing that the patient and their doctor should not be responsible for the end of life counseling? Are you arguing that it should be in the hands of some bureaucrat?
All HR3200 did was indicate that this would be a covered expense. Now it is apparently not a covered expense.
Very puzzling that you wold apparently be arguing for this to not be between the doctor and the patient.
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#79 – “If you wish not to be misrepresented, it would probably help to not use the term death panels which is, as both you and I note, not in the bill.”
I do wish not to be misinterpreted but I also fully expect it from those who want to control the discourse disingenuously. Being misinterpreted comes with the territory when you are making good points from the perspective of the right.
Thus, I will use whatever communicative resources I deem fitting that honestly communicates the point. Your expressed desire to control my speech is absurd, Musing.
The left constantly spins and dances over practical realities with disingenuous word choices and with intimidation toward those who wish to make their own valid and honest word choices to reflect reality.
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#84 – you are clearly not listening to me.
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Joel mark post 85,
then you wold I suggest need to use the language as it was developed and had been used for a reasonable period of time.
- the bill calls it end of life counseling
- end of life counseling has been around since at least 1991
- death panels only appear as Republicans start attacking the bill
I believe that is sufficient to make clear that the use of the term death panels is a political effort to misdirect the discussion during the health care reform debate. The term is quite simply a figment of the conservative oppositions mind, not part of the bill or the context in which the bill was developed.
And when I make that statement I do believe I am not misrepresenting you in any way at all.
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Because the media worship Obama and do his bidding, decent people like Sarah Palin need to bring up aspects and issues that the media do not want treated or dealt with. Thank goodness for Sarah Palin. That’s not an endorsement of any sort of candidacy, but an expression of gratitude that she is unafraid to engage and speak truth to power.
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Debra (32) & NJL (33),
Gary North wrote an open letter to Sarah Palin a couple of months ago, in which he recommended she travel the country, speaking to grass-roots groups and promoting:
I think she’s way out of her league at the national level. And I absolutely cannot tolerate her neo-conservative “foreign policy” (i.e., military interventionism).
But I agree with Gary — she could have a good effect at the grassroots/local-activist level.
Heck, anybody who has ever considered secession can’t be all bad.
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I don’t know of any serious leader who is actually seriously considering secession. Repealing oppressive laws, yes. Secession? Not to my knowledge. At least it is not what I want. I still love this great nation.
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That’s exactly what she should do, Frank!
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It’s not like secession’s a bad thing.
After all, it’s how we severed ties from the British Empire.
While I do love America, I would have no problem at all with us divvying up into smaller territories … each leaving control of most legal matters to local governments who are accountable to the people … each competing fairly and openly — and non-violently, I would hope — with the other for citizens, trade, etc. …
Nevertheless, the Palins once looked into/advocated the secession of Alaska from the United States. That is one of the things I find intriguing/endearing about her.
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I agree that Sarah Palin may not be the candidate that is needed to do the job at hand. But lets remember that Ronald Reagan was an actor! Has anyone thought that she might have taken that job because she needs the money? What we do need is not the same candidates of the past mired in polical muck whether they have a high IQ or not. We need a man or woman that will uphold the constitution, uphold our Christian heritage and a person of bold righteousness. Is there a polical candidate even out to fill those shoes?
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Actually, Ronald Reagan came to his candidacy after being an effective governor of the most populated state in the union with a good record. He had been a fine communicator for years on radio and as a spokesman for GE. The fact that he was an actor is only one aspect about him and certainly not the main one that qualified him for public service. And not just an actor, but President of the Screen Actors Guild. He was an experienced leader already.
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We have a disagreement over who should be taking responsibility for this . .
I say every individual should buy insurance and/or pay a tax. The government should push insurance companies to spread rather than discard risk.
. . and who will do the best job at it.
Professional practitioners, of course.
We have a disagreement over who (or what sort of commissions or panels) will be in position to make crucial decisions related to your care
Medicaid will decide for the poor. Private insurance companies (and ultimately stockholders) will decide for those who pay with or without subsidies.
. . and how much you receive and how good it is.
Minimum standards set by government, add-ons according to whim and wallet, sky the limit.
JOEL, there is very little dispute over these questions, except between those who say the government should do nothing but “get out of the way” and those who advocate single-payer. I doubt Republicans will repeal a single provision, including the Medicare tax increase. They’re already talking about unspecified “incremental” fixes.
My post #81 about the righties’ mischaracterizations of end-of-life care in the present reform is totally valid and unrefuted.
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Joel Mark post 90,
so:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-4950073-503544.html
was just a campaign stunt????
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. . she is not ill-bred
. . which makes her way, way better than Barack Hussein Obama.
Sweet D.C.INNIS derives his slurs from Tea Party rallies.
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Honestly, I’ve never felt Palin had a chance to get the nomination. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong, but if so, then I think it will be to the Republicans’ detriment. I don’t think Palin can beat Obama.
As for ObamaCare and Romney, that’s interesting. Obviously he wouldn’t be able to make health care part of his campaign, but to my mind that doesn’t necessarily count him out. If the economy’s still not doing great in 2012, which is entirely possible, Romney could position himself as the “savvy CEO” president who’ll fix all our economic ills and pretty much ignore the health care thing altogether. That won’t score him any points with hard-core conservatives, but it might score him some independent voters who, trust me, aren’t going to vote for Palin.
I see Tim Pawlenty’s name tossed around some as well. The political futures markets (where people are wagering “real” money) list the most likely Republican nominees as:
Romney (25%)
Palin (23%)
Thune (16-20%)
Pawlenty (8-10%)
Huckabee (8%)
I don’t see Huckabee getting it either, so that leaves Romney, Thune and Pawlenty.
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I flatly reject the argument that patriotic jingoism is an acceptable substitute for knowledge.
And I think the true conservatives of yester-year would be appalled at the notion. The very idea of conservatism, from its inception in Edmund Burke’s Reflections on the Revolution in France, is that knowledge and appreciation of a country’s history and historical institutions are essential to securing liberty. Well-intentioned nationalistic fervor would not be enough to serve the French people well, Burke argued. I think the true conservative would say the same about America.
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It’s too early to tell who might win the GOP nomination.
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My strong hunch is that Palin does not know if she wants to run in 2012. She does not strike me as a woman who makes a long-range plan and sees it through to the end. Instead, she strikes me very much as a woman who is comfortable flying by the seat of her pants. I’ll presume to infer from what I know of her personal convictions that she likely sees this as being open to the will of God in her life. Her book is filled with examples in both her personal life and political career of her making the most of some serendipity. This is a woman who entered a beauty pageant on a last minute whim, who just up and decided to run for governor because she was successful in the PTA, who accepted the VP nomination completely out of the blue, and who likewise quit her governorship precipitously (with many indications that close political advisors had no idea it was coming).
All that to say: Palin does not have a plan. She is comfortable not having a plan. She is a true wildcard.
A Romney race would be very interesting. It would enormously complicate what is very likely to be The Republican Message in the next two national elections: Health Reform is Socialism. How would the Tea Party crowd (who would like to repeal even Social Security and Medicare) react to a Romney nomination? By backing their own candidate, I’d guess.
On the other hand, by 2012, I suspect everyone will realize that the health reform is not all that the Right threatened: no death panels, no raised taxes, no interruptions in care. People will realize they like the idea that insurance companies can’t drop them when they get sick. Running in 2011 on repealing Obamacare will likely be bad politics.
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Scroop Moth wrote; “I say every individual should buy insurance and/or pay a tax.”
How nice. But how do you plan to fore YOUR utopian “should” down our throats, Scroop Moth? Where is the “or else!” in that sentence? Well, the “or else” is in the latest Marxist wealth redistribution bill and some 16,000 IRS officers will have the power to slam into prison anyone who does not abide by Scroop Moth’s “shoulds.”
Scroop Moth wrote; “The government should push insurance companies to spread rather than discard risk.”
Now there’s a blatant and classic unconstitutional statement for us all to relish. But Scroop Moth’s “shoulds” must take precident OVER the US Constitution nowadays.
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JJF wrote; “I flatly reject the argument that patriotic jingoism is an acceptable substitute for knowledge.”
Wow, I completely agree, which is why I appreciate Sarah Palin so much for her incredible synthesis of genuine patriotism with astute knowledge and a lot of real life wisdom.
JJF continued; “And I think the true conservatives of yester-year would be appalled at the notion.”
Wow, I completely agree again!!! In fact, the true conservatives of yesteryear are the forerunners of the true conservatives of today, like Sarah Palin, who are indeed appaled at such a ridiculous notion.
JJF continued: “The very idea of conservatism, from its inception in Edmund Burke’s Reflections on the Revolution in France, is that knowledge and appreciation of a country’s history and historical institutions are essential to securing liberty.”
WOW! I have never seen such a roll of abolute brilliance on this blog. This sounds like our Founders. I agree completely. This is why I am a conservative.
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In my observation, patriotic jingoism is what we see from the left during an election year. It fades fast and hard, until the next election year comes around when it rushes back in.
True conservatives, however, live and breathe their patriotism for real.
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#101 BuddyGlass,
I sincerely hope the GOP does not select Romney in 2012. I don’t want to see Obama take a second term, but I would certainly not be able to support Romney. In addition to his actions in support of mandated healthcare, to me he epitomizes some of the worst practices of corporate America. He’s one who’s made a practice of helping others legally evading taxes by setting up shell companies offshore; and made a bundle for himself in the process. There’s a better way to make money. That may be legal, but it is far from ethical, and it’s the sort of practice that should be stamped out–not rewarded with the presidency.
I’m getting ready to read Romney’s book, No Apology; The Case for American Greatness. I want to see how he explains his own actions and motivations in his own words.
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Debra – 105
Can you PROVE what you have posted #105 regarding Mitt Romney – LINK and copy paste the proof? –
That’s an accusation that needs to be PROVEN -
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BuddyGlass: re my post #105, if you would like me to find some links for you I will. Other interested parties can look it up for themselves– LA Times, Chicago Tribune, Boston.com, HuffPo…the list goes on. The info is practically everywhere. It’s not a big secret.
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Just as I thought Debra, … you make accusations, and then tell people to go and prove your point for you.
The laugh is on you,….. no proof, NO POINT -
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JOEL MARK: How nice. But how do you plan to fore YOUR utopian “should” down our throats, Scroop Moth? Where is the “or else!” in that sentence?
the health care bill forbids enforcement/collection methods along with the $750 tax for failure to buy insurance. All carrots and no sticks. You’ll have the incentive of subsidies to buy insurance voluntarily. Plus, the government gives you “insurance” on your insurance — which after all is the whole point of insurance, right?
JOEL MARK: Now there’s a blatant and classic unconstitutional statement for us all to relish.
The complaints against government regulation of insurance are totally bogus. The founders gave Congress broad powers to regulate commerce. Justice Scalia says that if you grow a pot plant on your windowsill, that’s interstate commerce. SCOTUS can say what it wishes, but nobody expects it to rule the insurance regulations to be unconstitutional.
There will be a ruling, so hang on. Be ready to eat your words. Yuk!
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#101: “How would the Tea Party crowd (who would like to repeal even Social Security and Medicare) react to a Romney nomination?”
That, or they’d vote for the Libertarian or Constitution Party candidate. I want to say Romney’s not far-right on the immigration issue either, but I haven’t researched it. That’ll tick them off.
Thune seems to be the Huckabee-like candidate for 2012. That is to say the guy who wears his evangelicalism on his sleeve and is the furthest right on social issues.
Don’t know much about Pawlenty, but he seems more middle of the road. His ability to beat Obama is also kind of questionable, though- wiki cites a poll projecting Obama would beat him by 10 points in his home state of Minnesota.
I’d say Romney has the inside track for sure, but then again, so did Clinton leading up to 2008.
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PS. I suppose the government could report you to the credit bureau and give you a bad score, which is pretty bad. Apart from labeling you as a deadbeat, though, Obama can’t seize anything through civil procedure or prosecute you criminally. That’s unlike other tax obligations.
I forgot to mention above that individual mandates and insurance regs were Republican ideas out of the Heritage Foundation, enacted by Gov. Romney. Conservatives used to see these elements of what we now call “Obamacare” as a small-government, unobtrusive alternative to Single Payer.
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Scroop 109 Justice Scalia says that if you grow a pot plant on your windowsill, that’s interstate commerce.
HUH?? I would ask if that’s hyperbole, but I’m afraid of the answer!
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Scroop #111 Obama can’t seize anything through civil procedure or prosecute you criminally. That’s unlike other tax obligations.
I did read that in the healthcare bill. But I’m not sure I trust it–only because the bill is so tortuous that it may take away those protections in another chapter/subparagraph xyz…
For example, it expressly says that no federal funds can be used for abortions. But in another place, indirectly it guarantees that abortion insurance will be in fact subsidized, because it requires the Sec’y of DHHS to price abortion ins. by assuming that ALL policies carry it.
The bill is full of twists and turns, and it’s no wonder people don’t trust it. I don’t.
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I am glad to hear that. I mean that sincerely.
Then your disagreement is not just with me, but with a great many thinkers in your own party (like Podhoretz). They correctly see Palin’s stark anti-intellectualism (e.g., “we need a commander-in-chief, not a constitutional law professor lecturing us from a lectern”) as a threat to the future of conservative politics.
I have never seen any evidence of Palin’s “astute knowledge.” Can you provide an example?
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I’ve not heard that before. Can you provide a link?
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Sure, JJF.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/17/nation/na-mittoffshore17
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/la-na-mittoffshore17dec17,0,6245669.story
My complaint is that what he did was perfectly legal, but ought not be. And he should not be rewarded with the presidency. How could a person who sees nothing wrong with using these shell corps. to help his investors avoid paying taxes be trusted to oversee the regulations we require to have a strong economy, and a fair one in which everyone is abiding by the rules. I’m hoping the Republican party can do better.
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Debra wrote; “I don’t want to see Obama take a second term…”
Me neither and mean that enough to plan to be realistic about what it takes to back up that claim (to not want him take a second term). If I don’t get the precise conservative I prefer in the primary, I will recover and support a less than perfiect one to run against Obama.
And Romney fits the “less than perfect” category. I would be proud to support him against Obama and not only that, to work hard for his election. Elections are not just about me and my ideals. They are about getting the best public servant we can to protect our liberties.
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Mitt Romney would be good for the economy. He understands the free market and fiscal responsibility. I have my reservations on some points related to his record as a Republican in Massachusetts but I respect him and have an open mind.
I commend Debra for being willing to read Romney’s own case rather than merely listen to what others say about him.
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#109 – “All carrots and no sticks.”
this is simply inaccurate.
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JJF wrote; “Then your disagreement is not just with me, but with a great many thinkers in your own party…”
Nothing new there. I realize you are not the only American willing to doubt Palin’s knowledge and intelligence on false pretenses and false reports. I’ve never been one to require everyone to agree with me before I take a stand.
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JoelMark, what do you make of the shell corporations? Surely you don’t think this is right?? Is this just an example of him being ‘less than perfect’, or….what? I know it’s not illegal, but surely you agree that it should be, don’t you?
The people his company has shielded from paying taxes in the US are not even American citizens. He was making money shielding foreign citizens from paying taxes in the USA.
And it’s not like they were doing anything in the Caymans other than just not paying taxes:
… [his company's] only presence consists of a nameplate at a lawyer’s office in downtown Hamilton, capital of the British island territory.
“It’s just a mail drop, essentially,” said Marc B. Wolpow, who worked with Romney for nine years at Bain Capital and who set up Sankaty Ltd. in October 1997 without ever visiting Bermuda. “There’s no one doing any work down there other than lawyers.”
I would have a serious problem supporting this.
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Oh sorry. I omitted the link for the quotes in #122:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/12/19/romney_utilized_offshore_tax_havens_to_help_investors/
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Debra,
As you have admitted, Mitt Romney did nothing illegal – the sites you give, are those who are supported by liberals, and Dem’s – what a surprise!!
You supported Obama during the last election, now you don’t find him appealing. YET, you are now casting doubt on Romney. What path might you be seeking, to help guide those on the blog to a good presidential candidate?
And the games begin!
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Another take on Romney in the Boston Globe (not via the LA Times): Reaping Profit in Study, Sweat.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/romney/articles/part3_main/
I preferred him to McCain, but he cut his losses.
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Debra, I’m surprised you supported Obama for president. Victoria is right about those liberal articles you cited. I think I’ll check out his book as well.
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#120 — All carrots and no sticks is substantially accurate with respect to the $750 tax on people who don’t obey the “mandate” to buy insurance. The law specifically forbids the IRS from using the collection methods that employs to collect other taxes.
You can flout that provision of the law with impunity, JOEL, if you can sleep at night and look yourself in the mirror. Other than giving you a bad credit report, there’s nothing more the IRS can do about it, that I can see.
Sen. Waterloo is lying through his teeth about 16,000 agents. You need better sources, JOEL.
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What path might you be seeking, to help guide those on the blog to a good presidential candidate?
And the games begin!
#124
We’ve witnessed your ‘games’ with Pastor Roy on the Phelps thread last night: making a snide comment to him, then pretending you didn’t. I don’t play games. Let’s try to stick to the topic of the post and not get into your fantasies about my motives. We don’t want to have to disturb Mickey’s weekend.
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I was formerly registered as a Republican for about 15 years, and have been unaffiliated about 15 (never a Dem). However, I am very conservative on social issues. So voting for a Democrat, while not entirely unheard of for me, is always a painful dilemma.
I would be happy to discuss it more in depth when I get back, but I must be out for an hour or two.
Be well.
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Debra – 129
Pastor Roy has nothing to do with your inuendo against Romney,…. that’s NOT what we are talking about on THIS THREAD.
The BAIT and SWITCH game won’t work this next election. Everyone who wasn’t wise enough to see through it last election has been fore-warned by what’s happened, it’s a visible catastrophe. All those seeking to play the hop-scotch game, trying to convince us they AGAIN know the answer ……. not gonna happen!
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Stay on topic and you have no objections from me. Cast aspersions on my character (like you do to so many others) and there will be many objections.
Have a nice Resurrection Sunday.
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Louise, if you will forgive me for bailing out tonight, perhaps we can continue our conversation next week? By then I may have gotten around to filling out a page for ‘Meet the Regulars’. I’ve been meaning to do that for awhile and have procrastinated long enough I suppose.
I hope you all have a wonderful Resurrection Sunday service. And those of you who can’t/don’t go, have a blessed day anyway.
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Thanks for the links, Debra.
Wow. I already didn’t like the guy after defended Bush’s infringements on civil liberties by saying, “my most important right is the right to be kept alive!” This cements it.
Victoria and Louise:
The source of the information is irrelevant to Debra’s argument. If Romney did in fact set up offshore tax havens for wealthy companies (and if you are able to dispute this please go ahead), then I would agree he is not a man we want in the presidency.
Victoria’s defense (”Mitt Romney did nothing illegal”) is very weak. There are many legal activities that we all believe would disqualify a person for the presidency. The questions are (1) do you think helping big companies set up off shore tax havens is one of those legal but disqualifying activities; and (2) do you think Romney did this.
#2 would be very hard to dispute at this point. So you’re forced to say, “eh, it’s not so bad to help big companies take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying taxes.”
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False reports? I judge her by her own words. They are typically mangled, nonsensical, thought-free boilerplate.
But again, I asked for evidence of Palin’s “astute knowledge.” What makes you think she has it? I’ve seen absolutely zero evidence of it, so I’m interested in what, specifically, she has said or written that wows you.
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Debra – 131
“Stay on topic and you have no objections from me. Cast aspersions on my character (like you do to so many others) and there will be many objections.”
If you care to stay on TOPIC, (see post #128) I would suggest you not bring Pastor Roy into the discussion, he has nothing to do with it.
No “aspersions” were cast upon your character, to paint my comments that way is not the truth Debra – your remarks cast damaging and slander towards my character, is this your way of SILENCING my views.
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Debra,
Further more, I don’t cast “aspersions” on others charcter either. Think about this before you attack me again, unfairly.
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No it isn’t irrelevant, it is typical of the liberal press, especailly back in 2007. They have all had a big does of Obama, and have now changed their tune.
No it isn’t weak – Romney did nothing illegal, but that doesn’t appeal to the LEFT, they don’t care whether it’s legal or not – look at the past year and talk about legal or ethical.
JJF, your argument is lame!
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SHOULD READ:
“No it isn’t irrelevant, it is typical of the liberal press, especailly back in 2007. They have all had a big DOSE of Obama, and have now changed their tune.
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#122 – Debra asked; “What do you make of the shell corporations?”
I think they provide usable energy resources for automobiles.
“Is this just an example of him being ‘less than perfect’, or….what?”
I think people are innocent until proven guilty, Debra.
I don’t believe accusations and ethical smears on people without sufficient evidence. I have learned that any human being can run for office and suddenly be subjected to all sorts of scurrilous accusations to discredit them and beg them down in defensiveness. It seems Romney is too smart to get into a puking context with buzzards.
I may not be brilliant but I am smart enough not to bite on the accusations that get piled on to decent candidates by polarizing partisans or by people PRETENDING not to be partisans. But if a conviction comes down, I can begin to pay attention. Otherwise, it is usually scandal-mongering bloodsport and I don’t play.
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Debra wrote; “Yes Louise I did support Obama— for reasons of economy and trade.”
I don’t know about Debra personally, but I do know there are many hard-line leftist plants in the public discourse who label themselves independents or conservatives (and claim they have voted Republican in the past) or what in order to worm their way into influence that will divide up conservatives. In the radio business, they call them “seminar callers.”
Supporting Obama says it all, though.
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Joel,
YEP, I agree with you, what a surprise.
GOD bless you, and have a wonderful Resurrection Sunday.
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JOEL MARK #140, says:
“…I do know there are many hard-line leftist plants in the public discourse who label themselves independents or conservatives (and claim they have voted Republican in the past) or what in order to worm their way into influence that will divide up conservatives.”
Wow. Just…wow. I guess there is no longer any doubt the lengths a paranoid mind will go to in order to justify its paranoia.
I can just see Joel Mark and his ilk hanging up on their crosses, bearing the horrific burdens of a repressed minority. Sacrificial lambs, they are; led to the slaughter, hemmed in on all sides by the jeering mob.
What a martyr!
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#133:
I have no problem with companies exploiting legal means to avoid paying taxes. Corporations work within the tax framework the government creates. If that framework contains a clear “winning strategy” and its not directly harming people, then I don’t fault them for taking that route.
Of course, I’d comment that this is a perfect example of why the corporate income tax is a flawed idea and we should collect that revenue via other methods.
As to whether Romney’s familiarity with these loop holes would exclude him from consideration for the presidency…actually…it might be a selling point, assuming he intended to close them. But he probably doesn’t, so yeah, I guess its a bad thing.
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<blockquote parah salin – 142
"Wow. Just…wow. I guess there is no longer any doubt the lengths a paranoid mind will go to in order to justify its paranoia."
You’re early, it’s only early spring of 2010, wait till it cooks up over the next months, then you’ll have a real reason to squeal…. LOL
How’s LUMPS?
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Norman Podhoretz: What [Palin] does know … is that the United States has been a force for good in the world.
Frank: Meh … sometimes.Both the government and the peopele of the US seem to be either ignorant of the many times we were a force for evil … or unwilling to admit and repent of it when they do know.Everybody’s all “Rah-rah, looky what we did in WWII!” Nobody is willing to admit that the firebombing of Dresden and the nuclear annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were illegal under international law, to say nothing of immoral under Just War Doctrine. (But c’mon … who was gonna prosecute the victors?) And how many Americans in a thousand have ever even heard of Operation Keelhaul?
And while it is true that we delivered Poland from Hitler, we turned our back on them and other Eastern European countries when they were ravaged by a Soviet regime that was demonstrably more murderous than the Third Reich. (Good ol’ Uncle Joe … )
Then there was the Mexican War, the culmination of numerous provocations against the Mexicans, and by which the US forcibly acquired the entire southwestern portion of the current United States. Wasn’t manifest destiny a wonderful thing?
Oh, and just who was it that overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran in 1953 and installed a puppet dictator? Is it any wonder Iranians took over the U.S. embassy in 1979 after they ousted the shah that we forced them to live under for twenty-five years?
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Innes: Podhortez’s point … emphasizes the indispensable value of a moral and political orientation that’s consistent with our form of government, supports our political tradition, and recognizes the harsh realities of dealing with nations that reject our politics and basic moral outlook.
Frank: Just who in the hell appointed the United States of America the arbiter of morality, justice and acceptable politics for the rest of the world?
Who?
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JJF’s observation at (99) was close, except I would refer to arrogance such as Podhoretz’s and Palin’s as nationalistic jingoism, because there ain’t nothin’ “patriotic” about it.
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You do have trouble with anyone who isn’t a Ron Paul – there isn’t much patriotic about him, he’s way over on the island club, waiting for his ship to come help the poor guy. All those little islands who haven’t formed anything except a group of hermits.
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Victoria at #136: Further more, I don’t cast “aspersions” on others charcter either.
HA! Are you kidding?
Joel Mark at #139: I may not be brilliant but I am smart enough not to bite on the accusations that get piled on to decent candidates by polarizing partisans or by people PRETENDING not to be partisans. But if a conviction comes down, I can begin to pay attention. Otherwise, it is usually scandal-mongering bloodsport and I don’t play.
HA! As long as it’s a Republican candidate you like. Otherwise, you’re usually the one leading the charge.
Are you guys really so oblivious to your own behavior?
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Joel Mark at #102: How nice. But how do you plan to fore YOUR utopian “should” down our throats, Scroop Moth? Where is the “or else!” in that sentence? Well, the “or else” is in the latest Marxist wealth redistribution bill and some 16,000 IRS officers will have the power to slam into prison anyone who does not abide by Scroop Moth’s “shoulds.”
We went over this in another thread.
The legislation specifically forbids any enforcement of the requirement to buy insurance beyond charging the fine. If someone doesn’t pay, the IRS cannot really do anything about it, other than keep it on your record as unpaid back taxes. In particular the bill says they can NOT put you in jail.
And the “16,000 IRS officers” is a complete untruth.
This is a good example of your eager willingness to believe any bad thing claimed about Democrats without bothering to do even the most basic fact-checking, while claiming a high-minded disregard for “bloodsport” that is much more one-sided than you would like us to believe.
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Joel Mark popst 102,
when you say:
“How nice. But how do you plan to fore YOUR utopian “should” down our throats, Scroop Moth? Where is the “or else!”
Let me re[pose the problem.
We have a health care issue in this country which is absorbing governmental resources.
To support this the government has imposed a tax which varies over time but I believe goes to about $650/person/yr.
There is, however, a government incentive program: if you buy health insurance, the government will waive this tax, and if your income is low enough, the government will provide subsidies to help you purchase the insurance.
There is no compulsion in the program when worded this way. Further, this is very similar to say cash for clunkers or energy rebates.
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Buddyglass post 143,
when you sa:
“Of course, I’d comment that this is a perfect example of why the corporate income tax is a flawed idea and we should collect that revenue via other methods”
perhaps like the VAT?
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Victoria,
Do try to stay on topic.
I said nothing about Ron Paul.
What I said was, America is not always a force for good, Podhoretz’s and Palin’s claim to contrary.
God isn’t going to bless this nation until we start to honestly take stock of its doings — both good and bad — throughout world history.
All this idea of “we’ve done nothing wrong in the world, but rather saved it several times already and we’re here to do it again” amounts to faux American exceptionalism — or nationalist jingoism.
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Here I believe is one example of an honest consideration of America’s role in history — from a Bible-beilieving minister of the Gospel:
Considering that the Johnson Administration lied the US into full involvement in Vietnam — via the bogus Gulf of Tonkin incident, with 50,000+ American lives lost for that deception — how can we simplistically state that “America is [always] a force for good in the world”?
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Victoria,
Incidentally, since you brought him up, Ron Paul served his country in Air Force blue, as did I.
And we are not “hermits” as you continue to so falsely paint us.
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#153: I had the FairTax in mind. So, yeah, kind of like a VAT.
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Buddyglass post 159,
fairtax is a subjective statement. to some it means a highly graduated income tax, to others it means a flat tax.
I suspect less emotional and more technical language would help here.
Please be more specific.
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#160:
The tax I was talking about is actually marketed as “The FairTax”. Though, you could still argue that they’ve subjectively named it that.
http://www.fairtax.org/
It is most definitely *not* a flat-rate income tax. Instead its a 30% federal sales tax that would replace the personal income tax, corporate taxes, capital gains, payroll taxes and the estate tax. Additionally, each household would get a monthly check in the amount that a household of that same size at the poverty level would expect to pay in federal sales tax over the course of a month. The idea being that a household that actually *is* at the poverty level would pay no tax.
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(Following the interesting rabbit trail, here. Sorry, Palin skeptics and your second looks. If it’s any consolation, there will most certainly be another Palin thread very shortly.)
BuddyGlass:
I had a friend recommend the idea and Neil Boortz’s book to me. I found it an interesting concept, but surprising that it had so many conservative backers given the “optics” (to use the political neologism) of every household receiving from the federal government a monthly stipend for basic necessities.
And it’s not just the “optics.” Even I — who am so far beyond Glenn Beck’s salvation that I would love to see a public health care option and tighter regulations on corporations and I believe the Bible calls us to “social justice” — think that nothing would do more to engender a culture of dependence than an entire society that waited by the mailbox the first of each month for Uncle Sam’s allowance money.
Second criticism. In practice, the FairTax system would simply shift the tax burden downward to the lower- to mid- middle class. People who right now have a very low tax burden (because they receive various allowances and credits) would find their burden skyrocket to 23% (in that $100 would buy $77 worth of merchandise). Is that more fair, since everyone is paying the same percentage on purchases? Arguable, but perhaps so. Is it sustainable? I seriously doubt it.
Think how hopping mad the Tea Partiers would be when they found out that instead of paying, effectively, 10% of their income in taxes, they were now paying 30%. (I know it’s actually 23%. But do you think 23% is what’s going be scrawled next to the pictures of nooses and the “LIBURTY IS AT STEAK” text?)
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#139
That’s a great punch line for a ‘dumb blonde’ joke. But serious voters will want serious answers eventually….and if the GOP won’t provide them, someone else will. Do you know if the GOP has a position on offshore shell corps —one that does not qualify as a punch line?
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Louise, if you’re still there, I have submitted a bio with my background for ‘Meet the Regulars’. I don’t know how long it will take for them to post it there, but I would think it will be available sometime this week. I’ll also post this on WV today.
Be well.
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Thanks Debra, I’ll look for it and plan on doing the same.
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#162:
nothing would do more to engender a culture of dependence than an entire society that waited by the mailbox the first of each month for Uncle Sam’s allowance money.
Couple things here. First, the wealthier you get the less significant the prebate check is to you. I’m thinking that the folks who would find it most significant are already receiving significant govt. assistance, so I’m not sure it changes their situation that that much from a “dependence” point of view.
the FairTax system would simply shift the tax burden downward to the lower- to mid- middle class. People who right now have a very low tax burden (because they receive various allowances and credits) would find their burden skyrocket to 23% (in that $100 would buy $77 worth of merchandise).
I disagree here. Personally speaking, I’ve run the numbers and my household would come out ahead under the FairTax. I’m right around the 15th percentile (counting from the top) and take significant deductions. My federal income tax is usually around 10% of my gross income. A few reasons I think it wouldn’t end up being unfair to the lower to mid-middle class:
1. These groups derive a greater benefit from the prebate, percentage wise, since their income is lower to begin with.
2. These groups are currently disproportionately penalized by payroll taxes, to the tune of ~12% when you include the employer match. FairTax does away with payroll taxes.
3. The lowest earners typically aren’t able to claim more than the standard deduction on their federal return. Unlike me, they’re not able to deduct mortgage interest and property tax, and due to their lower income they can only deduct a smaller amount of sales tax. So while they’re paying a lower tax rate than I am, they’re paying that rate on a larger percentage of their income.
Think how hopping mad the Tea Partiers would be when they found out that instead of paying, effectively, 10% of their income in taxes, they were now paying 30%.
I think this is the reason most people oppose the FairTax: they mistakenly believe their current federal tax rate is only 10%. If your income is primarily from a salary and we consider payroll taxes, then you’re already at ~22%.
Here are some reasons I like it, in no particular order:
1. It would mostly “solve” the illegal immigration problem without having to deport people at gun point or build a stupid, expensive, ineffective border fence. Since only citizens would receive the prebate, the FairTax makes it much less financially viable to live and work in the U.S. as a non-legal resident.
2. Harder to cheat. People whose income is currently not taxed, e.g. criminals, now pay taxes. If you do a job for someone and get paid cash under the table, you still get taxed. If you’re wealthy, you can no longer hire a team of tax accountants to find and exploit every loop hole in the a byzantine income tax system.
3. It removes perverse incentives in investing. No longer do you have to sell something to offset a gain elsewhere, simply to lower your capital gains tax burden. Ditching the capital gains tax would also encourage investment overall.
4. The FairTax discourages consumption and encourages saving, which is something we sorely need. Unlike the current system, it doesn’t penalize increased income. (Only increased consumption). Basically it rewards the frugal.
5. Its more efficient from a compliance point of view, both on the private side (paid tax preparers, corporate tax departments) and the government side (huge IRS workforce). This money and effort is, in my opinion, currently just “wasted overhead” as opposed to productive labor. We might as well pay people to dig holes and fill them back up.
6. It vastly reduces the paperwork and hassle incurred by small businesses to handle payroll, payroll taxes, 401ks, etc. With no income tax there is no need for special tax-free savings accounts (401ks and IRAs) since income is no longer taxed. This is in addition to the savings employers would gain by not having to pay corporate taxes.
7. Taxing consumption provides a more stable revenue stream than taxing income, on a year-to-year basis, which is useful from the government’s point of view.
8. It makes American companies more competitive vs. their international competition.
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Buddyglass post 161,
as stated, arguably a reasonable idea.
Thanks!
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JJF post 162,
the real trick here is that one needs to carefully craft the rebate. One approach might be to make the taxes on the middle class effectively zero, the lower class gets a rebate, and the upper class would pick up a significant portion of the tax bill.
You would also need to make taxable items all encompassing.
And I suspect that the tax needs to be more like 60% than 30%.
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The sales tax rate would indeed need to be higher if you’re going to try to extend the “tax free” group up into the middle class. Just to give you an idea of how big a rebate they’re proposing, currently, for a married family of four, it would be around $550/month. That covers the expected sales tax on the purchases of a married family of four whose income is approx. $28,000, which is poverty level.
As you raise the rebate, you make it so that those with the very lowest incomes are actually “earning” money from it. Raise it high enough and you may cut into their motivation to work in the first place.
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Joel Mark – Regarding your comment @ #140 – From all that I have read of Debra (formerly DJ), I would say that she is telling the truth about being a conservative. Her having voted for Obama does not “say it all” about her or her motives.
My mother also voted for Obama, though she has generally been very conservative.
This next part is not to you personally, Joel Mark, but I have to say it pains me to see fellow believers making accusations – some veiled, some outright – & questioning the character or motives of fellow believers. I know that we are supposed to be “wise as serpents”, but can’t we give others the benefit of the doubt, & believe what they claim about themselves until evidence may prove otherwise?
And speaking of being “wise as serpents”, while we are being so, let’s not forget the “harmless as doves” part.
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Accusations were never made, to accuse anyone of doing so, isn’t true.
In this country we are allowed to view candidates for what they believe, support and stand for – and those who vote for them as their supporters, which they are… if they weren’t they wouldn’t have voted for them. It is the support one chooses to give an individual because of their beliefs that give an insight as to their heartfelt beliefs.
It is anyone’s right to believe as one chooses, and it is the right of those who don’t hold those beliefs to express themselves, defending what they believe to be true, – that is one of the freedom’s we cherish here in the United States.
Many question those who voted for Obama with GOOD REASON, the man’s credentials, background, academic records were either not available or were shoddy and unbecoming a future president of this country. The man has proven himself to be unworthy of the presidency, and the country suffers under his rule. We as citizens have a right to speak up, and ask those who voted for him, why they did so. Having said all that, it is perplexing when reading what Obama supporters still believe, even if they have chosen to semi-withdraw their support.
This is a serious subject, one that should not be avoided, nor should anyone be silenced for speaking up.
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Victoria,
When it is pounded into peoples’ heads that WE HAVE A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM, DAMMIT … some people, whose usual alignment is with one party but who are not at all pleased with the actions or positions of that party’s candidate will pinch their noses tightly and vote for the opposite party’s candidate, as a way of “punishing” their own party for giving them such a loser as a candidate.
As for me, you’d never catch me throwing my vote away on an Obama just to punish the GOP for giving us McCain. As you well know, I always prefer to vote my obediently (to my conscience) rather than expediently — which has me pulling levers for all sorts of race-losers like Ron Paul or Michael Peroutka or Howard Phillips.
But different people are always at different places in their political journeys. What we saw clearly in Obama perhaps Debra/DJ didn’t see. (Indeed, I tend to think the same way about conservatives who don’t see what I see in GWB or John McCain.)
But comments from Joel Mark about me or Debra being “laftist plants” are just plain silly, pointless, shallow and overly-simplistic.
The world will be divided into sheep and goats at the judgment seat of Christ. But that will be based on whether or not a person is found to be in Christ — not the GOP or even the US of A.
IOW, the world of American politics is vastly more complex than the “Right v. Left” or “GOP v. Dem” dichotomies painted by you and Joel Mark.
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Frank –
You make no point with the simplistic views demonstrated in your last two paragraphs –
Left-plants within the conservative side are common, it’s no secret, and as such, decrying it as being “silly: or “shallow” are fruitless efforts. Those of us who have been in politics KNOW BETTER, the manipulative game doesn’t succeed with those who understand the tactics.
Right now we do have a two party system, like it or not. That doesn’t mean its perfect, it isn’t – but at this time in history we aren’t in a position to be duped into the “divide and conquer” that is being offered as another choice. It’s foolish to throw one’s vote away, it serves no purpose.
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Victoria – I’m curious. Do you actually think either Debra or Frank are really liberal Dems trying to disguise themselves as conservatives (or in Frank’s case, a libertarian)?
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Well, it has seemed by some of your comments that maybe you do think that of Debra, at least. It would be nice if you were clear about whether you assume this about her or not.
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Karen – I refer you to Post 175, that’s the best you’re going to get!
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BY Scroop Moth wrote
. . she is not ill-bred
. . which makes her way, way better than Barack Hussein Obama.
Sweet D.C.INNIS derives his slurs from Tea Party rallies. .
When all else fails for a Leftist, hurl implications of racism at your opponents.
Obama is “ill-bred” because he’s HATES America, which has given him so much like being President. By contrast, Palin is grateful to be an American and wants the best for the USA.
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Gosh, that was so long ago, I forgot I said it. Cool. Thanks for the re-run, Fred! George W. Bush wasn’t ill-bred, was he? I mean, he wasn’t a bastard, nor a Nigerian.
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Victoria (173): Left-plants within the conservative side are common, it’s no secret, and as such, decrying it as being “silly: or “shallow” are fruitless efforts.
Frank: I didn’t say that the idea (in general) of leftist plants within the conservative movement was silly or shallow.
I said “comments from Joel Mark [in particular] about me or Debra being ‘laftist plants’ are just plain silly, pointless, shallow and overly-simplistic.”
Victoria (173): Those of us who have been in politics KNOW BETTER …
Frank: The fact that some lefties might portray themselves as conservatives in order to insinuate themselves into conservative conversations in no way translates to “knowing better” that me, Debra or anybody else here who may utter opinions with which you or Joel Mark disasgree are “leftist plants.”
Truth is, you don’t “know” your tukhis from the Grand Canyon.
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It’s a beautiful 80 degrees here in southern CA, a slight breeze. Our garden is just beautiful, all bright with pink and lavendar flowers, with palm trees.
Oh yes, it is true that the GOP has people who come in, represent themselves as something other than what they are, or what they believe. I’m sure you would agree with that, but maybe you can’t fatham such things.
Have a nice day everyone!
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VICTORIA (181): Oh yes, it is true that the GOP has people who come in, represent themselves as something other than what they are, or what they believe. I’m sure you would agree with that, but maybe you can’t fatham such things.
FRANK: Oh, excuse me … is WorldMagBlog a GOP website?
And here I thought it was website driven primarily by a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian worldview.
But then, there’s your problem right there, Victoria:
Conflating the two.
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What has so harmed Mike Huckabee that he can’t be President? I questioned the wisdom of being a news guy too, but he’s working real hard at making himself known beyond his small base of natural supporters. What is Romney doing since the election? Agitating, that’s what.
Why would a bunch of Christians run from the one candidate that lived a true Christian life? It’s like we believe the chains that others put on us, we can’t live for Christ in the public arena. I for one reject that presupposition.
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Just because she didn’t take kindly to Curic looking down her nose at her does not mean she doesn’t read or has not international experience. She was a journalist before she got married. (She reads the paper) She was governor of a state with the longest international border we have. Maybe you should check your facts before you make wild judgments.
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The international border length has nothing to do with Palin’s abilities to be a Pres, or VP.
As far as a journalist:
YouTube – Sarah Palin: KTUU-TV Sports Reporter (1988) Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc7LBtRGCd8
A Jones, these aren’t qualifications for the highest offices of the United States.
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Just read two very interesting (and pertinent to this thread) pieces this weekend:
a) Mad as Hell – Why ex-Republicans, right-wing radicals and a few crazies love the Tea Party (about
the TP movement here in Spokane); and
b) Hip-Pocket Politics: How To Become a Tack by Gary North — reflections on the Tea Party movement and thetwo non-establishment Republicans most identified with it: Ron Paul and Sarah Palin.
Check ‘em out.
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Ron Paul at the Southern Republican Leadership Conference in New Orleans, LA yesterday! (30-min. YouTube video.)
This man has cred.
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