Tyrants among us
What angers Americans in the Tea Party movement is tyranny. And well it should. It is spreading in Washington even more than usual.
Our Declaration of Independence still speaks for us where it says:
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.”
Lawless government is an unmistakable sign of tyranny, i.e., government that exercises power not under law or according to the authority given to it by consent of the governed, but on an authority it claims to have in itself.
The recent healthcare reform legislation is an example of governing tyrannically. The law requires people to purchase health insurance when they, perhaps because they are young and healthy, presently do not carry it. This is not a tax. It is the government telling you to do something because they believe it is good for the country. It is not conditional upon any other behavior. It says, “You will do this or we will punish you with a fine.”
I have not heard a credible argument from any elected officeholder justifying this provision constitutionally. Even the president, who has taught constitutional law, made only a vague reference to the state requirement that people buy car insurance. But that mandate is conditional upon owning a car for use on public roads. If people take the bus or walk, they can decline the purchase. But this is government exercising authority beyond what the Constitution allows, authority the people did not entrust to it. This is power exercised tyrannically, and on a grand scale.
At a constituent meeting, Rep. Phil Hare, a Democratic congressman from Illinois, stated with unguarded candor (as though it were no big deal) his disregard for the constitutional limits of congressional power when it comes to providing for what he thinks is the public good.
When asked to locate in the Constitution where Congress gets the authority to require everyone to buy health insurance, his response was, “I don’t worry about the Constitution on this. . . . I care more about the people dying every day who don’t have healthcare.” In a half-hearted attempt to find a constitutional hook on which to hang the law after the fact, he cited the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, thinking that he was quoting the Constitution. When someone pointed out that these words are found in the Declaration of Independence, he expressed indifference to the distinction. “Doesn’t matter to me. Either one.”
In other words, when it comes to doing good, constitutional restraints are irrelevant. They don’t apply. The legal constraints of the Constitution—in the eyes of congressmen like Phil Hare and, apparently, the president—are only for bad people. The goodness of the obviously good things that good-hearted people do with government power is the ultimate foundation of public authority, transcending even the Constitution. Another way of stating this view is that moral progress is the fundamental law of the land. It is the unwritten constitution behind the written Constitution. That is to say, the politically progressive use of power is self-authorizing. Every other exercise of civil authority must be subject to constitutional limitations because that is what a constitution is for.
This lawlessly self-flattering attitude seems to draw, but unfaithfully, from Cicero’s maxim, Salus populi suprema lex esto, “the welfare of the people is the highest law.” By salus, he meant the well-being or safety of the people. He was saying that because the individual depends on the community for the enjoyment of his private goods, and even for his very life, his individual good must yield to the public good in general when the two come into conflict. No law needs to state this. It is in the nature of the political relationship. In that sense it is the supreme law that transcends even the most fundamental written laws.
Cicero’s maxim is one for emergencies, however. Both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue these days are governing as though it were the ordinary basis for legislative activity, or, to speak more cautiously, as though the fullest and immediate expansion of the welfare state were a matter of national emergency.
But in the face of such tyrannical usurpation of authority, such an obvious design to reduce us under the absolute despotism of benevolent technocracy does not justify violence. It does, however, justify vigilance. Every patriot should exercise that vigilance at the ballot box in November, asking him or herself the question, “Does this candidate govern or promise to govern under the laws, or regardless of the laws as a law himself?” Will this candidate govern as a benevolent despot, or as a public servant under law?
Let me hasten to add in conclusion that Christians are substantially to blame for this state of affairs. The constitution for the Kingdom of God is the Bible. In the late 19th century, Christians started debunking and dismissing its authority, and substituting enlightened progressive morality and the latest developments of scientific thinking in its place. Today, even Protestant Evangelicals, who supposedly have a high view of Scripture, treat the details of its teachings with careless disregard, following instead all too often the fashions of Evangelical subculture.
Christians can be salt and light by conforming their convictions more conscientiously to the Word of God, and then voting their convictions more faithfully on election days.

















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back to top100 Comments to “Tyrants among us”
Thank you, DC.
In his ‘Notes on the State of Virginia’, Thomas Jefferson asked,
* “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?”
Jefferson was not implying that government is needed to dictate any notion of God on anyone. That’s not the role of government. He was recognizing that God is the ultimate giver and sustainer or liberty, not governments or politicians.
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D.C. Innes wrote; “Cicero’s maxim is one for emergencies, however. Both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue these days are governing as though it were the ordinary basis for legislative activity… as though the fullest and immediate expansion of the welfare state were a matter of national emergency.”
I recall when President Obama’s Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel (on November 19, 2008) told the Wall Street Journal Digital Network: “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.”
______________
Another insightful quote: “A government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take from us everything we have.” (Gerald R. Ford)
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He did not even try to play with the “General Welfare” clause.
On a side note, insurance drives up costs unless everyone in the population that uses the service as it. Thus to bring down costs, insurance must be had by everyone or not had by anyone. Since it is outside of the gov’t to mandate it, can they ban it? Looking at history, costs were far lower with no insurance.
A Constitutional way of “mandating” it without mandating it would be to have everyone, not 47%, of the country to pay taxes, and then have insurance be a tax credit. That way people get healthcare with money that would otherwise go to Uncle Sam.
Being back on topic, I liked this commentary post. And props to Joel Mark’s quote of Gerald R. Ford. I believe that government is called Sweden.
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This is not a tax. It is the government telling you to do something . .
There are two things wrong with this, and they are both lies.
1.) The $750 is a tax, collected by the IRS.
2.) The government doesn’t require anyone to purchase health insurance. You may and can choose not to. All the IRS does is administer a tax credit for those who do purchase health insurance.
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Rep. Hare is right not to be concerned with the constitutionality of HIR. Nevertheless, in the extremely unlikely event that SCOTUS strikes down HIR in whole or in part, Rep Hare can be trusted to obey the law and vote for any fixes that may be necessary.
There will by no tyranny. D.C. INNES is crying wolf in order to make your eyeballs roll over to the ads for pornblockers, Trinity Christian College, Focus on the Family, and other money schemes.
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I love the Constitution and want public officials to keep their oaths and follow it! But there is something even more important and John Adams realized this:
* “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (Adams, Oct. 11, 1798 – from an address to the military).
As early as 1776, Adams wrote in a letter:
* “Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.” (June 21, 1776)
Adams was a politician who knew the limits of politics. Without transcendent moral foundations, it’s worthless. In 1813, he wrote; “The general principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were… the general Principles of Christianity.”
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In 1789, when George Washington took office as our first President, he wisely wrote in a draft of his inaugural address, “[No] wall of words.. no mound of parchment can be so formed as to stand against the sweeping torrent of boundless ambition on the one side, aided by the sapping current of corrupted morals on the other.”
After serving two terms, President Washington understood that morality and virtue could not stand on their own. In his Farewell Address, he said, “We cannot expect national morality to prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
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Early American statesman, Samuel Adams put it this way:
* “While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.”
_________
Our Founders did not want government to legislate religious principle, but they did want it to freely thrive in our culture. They made no tests of faith for political office but they knew we could never pass the real test of nationhood for long without deeper roots of faith and virtue in the people. Without those roots, authentic liberty could not last—regardless of laws and leaders!
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The Volokh ran a thread a few days ago about the following quote of GW’s, which may be apochryphal (sp?), but whoever said it, it makes a lot of common sense:
“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”
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I have the same pocket Constitution as in the picture. Everyone should have one.
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Yes, NJL, I have one from CATO in my purse and a 1968 copy from the Government Printing Office. Good reading!
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Having a pocket Constitution in his pocket doesn’t make D.C.INNES right NJLAWYER.
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Great article DC Innes! Precisely what has the liberals like Scroop worried, that people will actually read and understand the documents that formed our country and set her apart. The Progressives would say that we have “progressed” further than these documents allow us to go. What they mean is that these documents do not allow for them to continue to trounce on the rights of the citizens and become the know-it-alls for what they “think” we the American people need.
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This nation is founded on laws, Scroop-5. It chills me to the bone to know that we have a congressman and supporters of congressmen like Scroop here, that can say “the constitution doesn’t matter.”. In place of the law, these people would govern on “ambigous feelings of what is right and wrong”. What are you going to do when a hard-core Christian fundamentalist gets elected, and starts governing according to his ideas? What happens when he mandates things like church attendance? Shoot, he could even say you don’t have to go to church, but you will be assessed a fee if you dont? Heck, he can just arbitrarily ban homosexuality as a crime against the state.
No, we are a nation of Laws. If you don’t like the laws, than change them through a legal process.
Thank you, DC, for calling this tyranny. That took courage. I concur.
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Great article, except for the standard “blame it on the church” conclusion. Those who do not submit to the Word are not the true church. They are to blame, in part, not the church. Missing this distinction is no small matter. But thank you for an otherwise right-on article.
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It will be awesome to see the SCOTUS chastise the legislature and the executive office, declare this HCR as unconstitutional, and to do so with an unanimous vote.
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Ever since they lost the White House, Evangelicals have been strange followers of Dr. Sigmund Freud, engaged in discovering transgressive irrationality in the subconscious minds of their opponents.
Here is a great example. D.C. INNES (a political scientist?) detects a Democrat in a moment of “unguarded candor,” making a supposed verbal slip that reveals what his PR-brain otherwise tries very hard to hide from you. Except when the truth slips out. The id cannot lie. The politician does nothing but lie. It’s the job of DC INNES to analyze “unguarded candor.”
Except for one big problem: Rep. Phil Hare wasn’t being indifferent and blasé. He was being harassed by Republicans who called him a liar and a Nazi. Give the guy a break, please. He’s an Army reservist and union leader who didn’t graduate from college. He was speaking shorthand, not poli-sci. He omitted boilerplate that would have make his comments politically correct.
What DC INNES claims Hare thinks is not what Hare says he thinks. Hare’s website says he “meant to say that he is not worried about this health care law being ruled unconstitutional. Dozens of legal scholars have said it will be held up in court. And Massachusetts has an individual mandate which remains in tact to this day.”
Is that explanation so implausible? DC INNES gives no reason not to believe it.
Of all the things there are to worry about, Hare is right to worry about people dying more than about the Tea Party’s willful misunderstandings of the Constitution.
Congratulations, Phil Hare, you do good on the Sabbath. Your brain is left and your heart is right.
DC INNES got a chance to re-read his essay before inflicting it on us, and he still erred on the side of the culture of death.
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Was McCain doing a “tyranny” move?
Did Big Pharma almost get a happy pill?
“McCain’s Anti-Supplement Bill Appears Dead – For Now
Senator John McCain showed his true colors as a big-government regulator when he recently introduced a bill, S.3002, that would have drastically impaired access to dietary supplements in the U.S. He expected his bill to be popular, at least amongst Democrats, and did not expect any significant opposition. After all, McCain is in a serious primary struggle with J.D. Hayworth and could very well lose his Senate seat in Arizona’s August primary vote. The fact that he seriously misrepresented the dietary supplement industry to promote this legislation quickly showed him as not even understanding his own bill. Then he found himself on the receiving end of communications from tens of thousands of irate supplement users – as did many other members of Congress. Now he is trying to quietly back out, as his staff has acknowledged that he has withdrawn support for his own bill.
McCain himself has not yet made any public statements to this effect. However, a letter from Senator Orin Hatch (R-UT) to McCain has been posted on the McCain senate website and indicates the current bill is dead.”
Makes one wonder.
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Scroop, if I had a dime for everytime a Democrat said “What I meant was…blah blah blah” I would be paying more in taxes!
We heard him. He said what he meant. The constitution doesn’t matter to him with people are dying everyday…blah blah blah.
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Scroop wrote, “Of all the things there are to worry about, Hare is right to worry about people dying more than about the Tea Party’s willful misunderstandings of the Constitution.”
But you also are being Freudian, in calling them “willful” misunderstandings. Let’s just agree that human nature is prone to impute I’ll motives to those it disagrees with (something both Freudian and Biblical).
Motives aside, what do you think Tea Partiers are misunderstanding about the Constitution?
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As Cal Thomas and the Beach boys say “Wouldnt it be nice..” if instead of voting guides on where candidates stood on issues we could get them to sit for exams which would measure their understanding of the constitution??
The frightening thing is a vast majority of politicians are licensed in their state bar. That means they would have taken a course or two in constitutional law.
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I’m not criticizing the Tea Party on the grounds of their Freudian slips, but for their conscious and intentional published writings such as DC INNes’ falsehoods on this thread.
The $750 is a tax collected by the IRS, not a fine imposed by the courts. The 16th Amendment gives congress the right to levy taxes on income from whatever source. INNES lies about compulsion. You’re free not to purchase insurance, and all the IRS will do is deny your tax credit.
Article I. Section 8 gives Congress the power to tax, spend, and borrow “for the general welfare of the United States.”
Justice Scalia, in drug cases, has said Congress has the power to regulate a plant growing in your kitchen window, as an item in commerce.
Social Security, Medicare are compulsory insurance products that the law requires us to buy, for our own good, to insure that we’ll be taken care of when we’re disabled or aged.
Tea Party wave their pocket Constitutions, but do you know their valid Constitutional claims KINGDOMWITHIN? Have they stated them on this thread? No. All they have is anti-government ideology.
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Scroop Moth, your problem with the Tea Party is that you feel they don’t understand what they’re arguing?
I want to clarify because, if that is the case, paragraph 4 seems irrelavant. I don’t think anyone ever said that Justice Scalia was perfect.
I would claim that the government has no right to provide wellfare, Medicare, Medicade, FDA, a standing army… the list goes on and on (the standing army is something of a necessary evil, however, because our meddling in foreign affairs has generated some bitter enemies who wold be happy to destroy us).
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Scroop, “Social Security, Medicare are compulsory insurance products that the law requires us to buy, for our own good, to insure that we’ll be taken care of when we’re disabled or aged.”
I am no Constutional scholar, but I do know the intent of the constitution was to not only authorize goverent to provide for the general welfare but to protect against forms of tyranny. The backdrop was a revolt against the non-representational and coercive policies of Britain. With that said, the general welfare would not include a government which grows almost exponentially, and thereby impinge- by it’s very size and “benevolent” activity upon the freedoms, and thus rights, of the people. The general welfare never implied big government, but limited government with limited influence on the lives of the people.
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Article I.8 places no limit whatsoever on the power of Congress to tax, spend, and borrow to provide for national defense and the general welfare. The only recourse you have against the exercise of these specific powers is the ballot. Your complaint is with fellow voters, not with government.
Justice Scalia’s views about the extremely broad (though not unlimited) power of Congress to regulate interstate commerce (a different power) is highly relevant to the Constitutionality of the insurance regulations. The Tea Party doesn’t focus on this aspect of HIR as much as on the individual “mandate”, but commerce regulation may be subject to lawsuits
The Constitution defines the structure of government and the character of its powers, but does not anywhere limit its size. For example, the 16th Amendment doesn’t restrict the size of the income tax. The Constitution doesn’t list what’s included or excluded in national defense and the general welfare, and it allows Americans to have any size government they choose.
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On a side note I love it how Social Security runs on the same basis as a Ponzi scheme.
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When do they start sending people to the camps?
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Random, Ponzi schemes do not involve camps, except for maybe laundering cash.
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You’re free not to purchase insurance, and all the IRS will do is deny your tax credit.
Being denied a tax credit is considered an act of tyranny by our right wing commentators but the Patriot Act is not?
Sorry when I flash my Ontario Health Card I don’t feel tyrannized but if my gov’t wanted to know what books I took out of the library I would feel tyrannized.
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What about those who feel tyrannized by both, the gov’t knowing your medical history and your reading habits?
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Taxation without representation is tyranny.
Seeing as how most of the US is against this bill, I would consider us unrepresented.
Put it up for a vote.
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Seeing as how Medicare and Social Security have long been “in the red,” (to the tune of TRILLION$) I don’t see how we can, in good conscience, also put healthcare in trust of government and expect it to run “in the black”.
How much more are we going to put up with?
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#30
MIM,
Something as broad and intrusive as the healthcare bill should require an amendment, and hopefully it will be overturned in the courts. It’s too bad we don’t have a sort of referendum for specific issues of this magnitude. Elections don’t really serve that purpose since the winning party always claims to have a ‘mandate’ for XYZ. And XYZ usually ends up meaning whatever they want it to mean…until the next election when they all start playing to the audience (electorate) again.
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#27
Now I have to start over counting from #1.
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What about those who feel tyrannized by both, the gov’t knowing your medical history and your reading habits?
the gov’t pays my medical bills but doesn’t know my medical history. The gov’t pays for my library books but doesn’t know my reading history.
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SCROOP WROTE, “Article I.8 places no limit whatsoever on the power of Congress to tax, spend, and borrow to provide for national defense and the general welfare. The only recourse you have against the exercise of these specific powers is the ballot. Your complaint is with fellow voters, not with government.”
Hi Scroop,
You are correct that I have an issue with my fellow voters. Granted. But as for your manner of interpreting the Constitution you are not reading specific portions in light of the rest of the document. This is analogous to what cults do with the Bible. Every verse must be understood in light of the entirity of Scripture. The limits of human language mean that we can’t say everything about anything anywhere. Points have to be made, understanding that to round out one’s understanding of the point there must come the light from other passages, not as contradicting, but as adding perspective or clarification on the original point being made.
In your case, you need to shine the light, if you will, of the Bill of Rights on Article I.8. That was the whole point of the Bill of Rights, to add conditions within which the earlier portion of the Constitution must be read.
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DC Innes, I was with you until you said this, “Let me hasten to add in conclusion that Christians are substantially to blame for this state of affairs.”
Huh?
You rightly state that “The constitution for the Kingdom of God is the Bible”, but what has the Bible to say about the politics of this world? Essentially zero. So why blame evangelicals for not fixing government?
I think that the biggest failure of the American church is the failure to make a distinction between church and state. Politics is not the mission of the church. Throughout history the church has thrived under the most tyrannical systems. The Bible never said to change those systems, but to turn to God.
Jesus ignored the state and its tyranny. Even when it came after him he remained silent. His answer was that his kingdom was not of this world. So why is ours? Shouldn’t Christians be more like Christ?
Obama has proclaimed that his mission is to create the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. He said he would make the oceans recede and bring healing on earth. Evangelicals who believe that politics is the mission of the church are embracing the same dominionist error as the messiah-in-chief.
Note: This is not to say that individual Christians shouldn’t be involved in political debate or to vote one’s conscience. We have dual citizenship in this life and the next, but the politics of one kingdom has nothing to do with the politics of the other. Set your affections on things above!
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#28 HRW Being denied a tax credit is considered an act of tyranny by our right wing commentators but the Patriot Act is not?
A tax credit? The choice offered by the IRS is to pay willingly or they will confiscate it by force. The result is the same. That is a robber’s defense who says, “I didn’t steal the money, the man at the end of my gun gave it to me willingly.”
As for the Patriot Act, Obama just signed a one year extension without reforms. Now he is trying to have the authority for the Federal government to know the whereabouts of every American citizen without a warrant. The Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no “reasonable expectation of privacy” in their–or at least their cell phones’–whereabouts.
Why do OBots keep complaining about Bush and the Patriot Act, when Obama is keeping all of it and taking it to the next level?
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Well, Scroopy, if they can’t make me buy the insurance, the IRS has no business keeping my refund either as punishment for not doing it. That’s unconstitutional.
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The choice offered by the IRS is to pay willingly or they will confiscate it by force.
Your problem then is not with mandated insurance programs but with the existence of taxation, for the above only makes sense if all taxes are illegitimate by nature. In which case you can be the ideological purist and move to Somali or you can be happy with the incremental gains made under Obama to reduce the number of people actually paying taxes.
Why do OBots keep complaining about Bush and the Patriot Act, when Obama is keeping all of it and taking it to the next level?
I don’t know ask an Obama fan not me. In terms of defense policies, Obama has been a huge disappointment and provides further evidence that Obama is a centrist who tacks right in order to appear “strong”. In order words a typical American liberal who needs to grow “some”
The following article which I read at the bookstore is an insightful analysis of the weak-kneed American liberal
http://harpers.org/archive/2010/04/0082894
unfortunately only the first two paragraphs are available online — if you get a chance its well worth the read.
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HRW,
I think one can accept taxes as legitimate in principle but only if they are applied across the board without reference to specific behaviors. I don’t think it right (I won’t say unconstitutional, but unwise) to try to use taxes to influence people’s behavior.
It may have started with good intentions such as promoting home ownership, getting married and having kids, and discouranging bad habits (i.e. “sin taxes”), but everyone has different ideas about what behavior should be encouraged and what should be discouraged, and everyone ends up thinking it’s unfair the way someone else benefits.
I don’t know just what a good tax code would look like, but it would be way less complex that what we have now, and it would be based on people’s money (I don’t know if that would be income, assets, spending, or what combination of those), not their behavior.
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#39 HRW Your problem then is not with mandated insurance programs but with the existence of taxation,
My comment was not about taxation, but your characterization of the penalty for non-payment. If one pays willingly, then you call the non-imposition of a penalty a “tax credit”. If one refuses to pay, then you call the confiscation of far more as merely a “tax”. One has no choice either way, but your language changes based on volition of one’s heart.
I tried to read your article, but the first two paragraphs say nothing. I agree with you that American liberals are wimps, afraid to admit what they really think for fear of not being liked. However Obama’s affliction with this debilitating disease does not make him a centrist; it makes him a pansy.
He admitted he was a Marxist in his autobiographies, but his refusal to state his true intentions now is due to weakness and inexperience. Socialism is still unpopular in America, so it is easier for him to advance his agenda through deceit rather than to state his intentions clearly and face legitimate debate.
That is why he preaches populism in public and advances policy in secret. He reminds me of Arafat who always said one thing to the Western press and the opposite thing to the Arabic press.
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“Rep Hare can be trusted to obey the law”
hard to trust a public servant who does not know the law and who is comfortable to show in public that he does not respect it
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Droop,
On second thought, the Bill of Rights do not address the size of gov directly, although search and seizure might rightly be applied.
We do need an ammenment…
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/03/gop-introduce-constitutional-amendment.html
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Several thoughts here:
“under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government”
This is in reference to monarchies. We have a representative democracy, not a monarchy. In that context, the correct method of “throwing off” such a government is to vote it out of office. If the electorate fails to do that, then perhaps they don’t consider the government to have subjected them to sufficient abuse as to warrant “throwing off”.
“The recent healthcare reform legislation is an example of governing tyrannically.”
No its not. Unless you feel “the people” can rule as tyrants over…themselves. The law was passed by the fairly elected representatives of the people. Moreover, “the people” retain the means to replace these representatives and repeal the law if they so choose. If they refrain from doing so, then maybe its not a law they disliked that much to begin with.
“I have not heard a credible argument from any elected officeholder justifying this provision constitutionally.”
That’s because most people, like Hare, really don’t care about strict constitutionality. That ship has sailed. Were you to convince everyone in the country that the Dept. of Education was unconstitutional, do you suppose they would all consequently support its dismantling? I don’t.
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SCROOP MOTH,
did not mean to call you “Droop”
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BrotherDan at 16: I’m not sure the WHOLE thing will be declared unconstitutional because there are parts that are severable. However, without the mandate….
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Pauline,
you are right and hence the health insurance tax credit is nothing new, illegitimate or revolutionary. Its the use of the tax code to encourage or discourage behavior and all gov’ts from all spectrums use it. I even get a $300 tax credit for enrolling my daughter in soccer and ballet.
However, unlike the US and other countries, Canada doesn’t have a mortgage interest deductible. Now there’s a tax credit that one can rightly call so unfair and punishing to those who don’t use it that you might as well call it a compulsory mortgage.
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Xion
I’m not a psychologist and am not able to analysis the deepest depths of Obama’s mind so I base my judgments upon what he actually does. And quite frankly he’s just another liberal wimp paralyzed by the Republican machine from doing anything remotely left wing.
. Socialism is still unpopular in America,
I don’t think many Americans even know what is socialism. My favorite tea party sign — “keep the gov’ts hands off my medicare”
the following is an amusing episode of The Young Turks where he discusses actual quotes from tea party demonstrators —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vrXJ5-EuoE
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#48 HRW And quite frankly he’s just another liberal wimp paralyzed by the Republican machine from doing anything remotely left wing.
Mostly true. He is also paralyzed by his own party.
I don’t think many Americans even know what is socialism.
It is a politically charged word that can mean many things. Obama’s agenda involves centralization of power in Washington and redistribution of wealth. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. Socialists view capitalism as a system based on greed and prefer one based on need. To them it is fair, but in reality it is corrupt.
Capitalism as a meritocracy which rewards excellence with success. The best rise to the top and as a result, everyone benefits. Imagine forming an orchestra where the best aren’t selected, but the neediest. How good would they sound? Imagine hiring people, not because they are good, but because they need the job the most or have the right color of skin. Socialism is an inhumane and corrupt system that rewards failure.
Under socialism, it isn’t the best who rise to the top, but often the worst. The people who succeed are those who are willing to game the system and cut deals with corrupt politicians to advance their interests. Socialism is a sleazocracy where the politically connected rule the world. These looters feed off of the producers and devour them. The economy suffers. The quality of service goes down and products and services are rationed.
Your YouTube video is simply standard fare from the left wing media. It was a complete setup. I could go to the mall and setup liberals the same way. Have you ever watched Jay Walking by Jay Leno?
The Boston Globe could have interviewed 100 intelligent people, but aired only the 3 or 4 that fit into his stereotype. He kept saying how racist these people were but offered not a single example. Typical dope from a leftist newspaper that no one reads. It is bankrupt and about to go out of business.
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It’s unutterably dumbfounding that Evangelicals are crying “tyrany” over a policy that comes from Heritage Foundation 1993 and Mass. Romneycare.
Evangelicals are so deranged that they have lost interest in the actual detail of policy but choose instead to rage over the most cosmic vulgarities of the battle between good and evil, and the most picky grievances over process.
Republicans are saying things like this behind closed doors, folks. DC INNES is a bad lieutenant of your movement.
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Capitalism as a meritocracy which rewards excellence with success. The best rise to the top and as a result, everyone benefits.
In theory yes in reality capitalism is often corrupt rewarding greed, connections, etc over excellence and talent. What rises to the top is the best under a particular set of circumstances which may or may not included the market, connections, intimidation, etc.
Under socialism, it isn’t the best who rise to the top, but often the worst. The people who succeed are those who are willing to game the system and cut deals with corrupt politicians to advance their interests.
Actually that would be any system. Again what rises to the top are the individuals best suited at playing the game dictated by the immediate circumstances surrounding them.
Socialism is a sleazocracy where the politically connected rule the world.
Again this occurs under any system — those with gov’t connection seek to exploit them to further their interest. Standard application of rule of law is the only means to prevent it not mob incitement to violence or wholesale discard of ideas.
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Socialism is a sleazocracy where the politically connected rule the world.
Sounds like Wall Street.
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XION — have you been subject to liens or seizures for nonpayment of taxes?
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HRW-Those of us who support the Tea Party movement do not really care what American leftists think-they have proven time and again that they do not care one whit for our opinions, our thoughts, or our freedoms to express our beliefs. Why on earth do you think we care what a leftist foreigner thinks? To put it bluntly-you have no place in this debate. It is not your taxes that will pay for this boondoggle. It is ours. It is not your traditions and freedoms being trampled-it is ours. It is not your politicians saddling our children with debt that will cripple the economy-it is ours. (Although this WILL make it more difficult for your leaders to dash across the border for good healthcare..) Do not presume to lecture us on OUR Constitution. It is not your forefathers who fought and died to protect the freedoms it enshrines. It is not our country, at least not yet, that locks people up for “offending” others. No, that distinction belongs to your Commission on Human Rights-an ironic name if ever there was one. It is not our healthcare system that rations care and allows people to die while waiting 2 or 3 years to see a doctor-at least not yet. That problem is all yours. The Constitution grants Congress very specific powers-the right regulate, not to compel, interstate commerce. Just because the courts have ruled, wrongly in my opinion, that this clause gives Congress the power to do what it pleases as long as it has a passing connection in some way to commerce does not mean the courts are right. This bill is nothing less than a tax on existing. Never before have Americans been expected to pay anything simply for being alive-buying or selling, yes, making money, yes, engaging in investment, yes, but never has there been a tax on breathing. And your notion of a tax credit is ridiculous. Say that a person makes no money during the year and is living off savings he has already paid taxes on. To save money he has decided to forgo health insurance as he is young and healthy. What business does the government have reaching into that man’s pocket and fining him for deciding not to purchase a product he does not want or feel he needs? What if the government required us all to buy vacuum cleaners? Would that be right? When leftists who are suddenly so concerned about the Constitution start protecting all of it, including things like the 2nd Amendment instead of blatantly violating it, then I might be inclined to listen to your dazzling legal analysis. Not till then.
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#51 HRW. I essentially agree with that.
So then, let’s assume man is by nature greedy and corrupt. We have two competing political systems, one that rewards excellence and another that rewards failure. Which would serve society better?
Under capitalism, the government sets the rules and people play the game. The best products and services rise to the top because those are the ones the market wants.
Under socialism, the government sets the rules and gets into the game. It punishes success and rewards failure. The corporations that succeed are the ones that pay off corrupt politicians. These politicians change the rules to benefit those who pay them off. Most of the stimulus money was a payoff to unions and Democratic supporters who helped get Obama elected.
If a corporation violates the law they can be prosecuted. If they anger the market they go out of business. So there is an incentive to do right. This is an immediate check and balance. But who watches the government? The American media is bought and paid for by the government.
If the government messes up, then there is no where else to turn. They wield absolute power. They can do whatever they want. We are protected by laws you say? Well, someone must be willing to take them on. And they can ignore the law change the law to feed their unrelenting greed and corruption.
And so, it is better that little pockets of power remain in private hands. It can do less damage that way. If all of the power is in the hands of a few, there is no stopping them.
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#53 Scroop “XION — have you been subject to liens or seizures for nonpayment of taxes?”
Why would I? I have always paid my taxes.
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Those of us who support the Tea Party movement do not really care what American leftists think-they have proven time and again that they do not care one whit for our opinions, our thoughts, or our freedoms to express our beliefs.
Actually they do care about your opinions — they are worried about incitement to violence, the rise of militias, etc
And they do care about your freedom to express your beliefs — they wonder why the left was herded into free speech zones while the tea party gets to lock and load.
Why on earth do you think we care what a leftist foreigner thinks? To put it bluntly-you have no place in this debate.
Ahh yes the last refugee of the scoundrel and the logic impaired. When in doubt and when all else fail resort to the patriotism.
It is not your politicians saddling our children with debt that will cripple the economy-it is ours.
True our well regulated banking industry prevented the need for bail outs. Lucky for you Obama is presently enacting a reform of your banking industry so it will be as strong as the Canadian system.
It is not your forefathers who fought and died to protect the freedoms it enshrines.
Now who died to protect the freedom of the US constitution — black slaves and the working class. And what did they get for it ….
It is not our country, at least not yet, that locks people up for “offending” others. No, that distinction belongs to your Commission on Human Rights-an ironic name if ever there was one.
Now when we have a thread on this issue — I’ll pull the nationality card.
It is not our health care system that rations care and allows people to die while waiting 2 or 3 years to see a doctor-at least not yet. That problem is all yours.
Don’t have that problem. I’ve changed family doctors three times in the last 12 years and never had a problem finding one. And I’ve never had to suffer any rationing due to lack of cash. And due to two long term family illnesses, I would have easily finished off a lifetime maximum. Medical rationing due to lack of cash is a systemic problem in the US as evidenced by the medically caused bankruptcies.
Say that a person makes no money during the year and is living off savings he has already paid taxes on. To save money he has decided to forgo health insurance as he is young and healthy. What business does the government have reaching into that man’s pocket and fining him for deciding not to purchase a product he does not want or feel he needs?
If he made no money, he wouldn’t pay tax. The use or non-use of the tax credit is irrelevant and hence not an issue. Its a wash.
This bill is nothing less than a tax on existing. Never before have Americans been expected to pay anything simply for being alive-buying or selling, yes, making money, yes, engaging in investment, yes, but never has there been a tax on breathing.
A little hyperbole never improves an argument. The so-called tax is on the non-purchase of insurance. Oxygen isn’t being taxed.
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Xion
We have two competing political systems, one that rewards excellence and another that rewards failure. Which would serve society better?
Obviously the one that rewards excellence — ever purchased a Volvo? excellent product much like the Swedish social democratic system. Using result based evidence such as life expectancy, infant mortality rates, etc we can conclude that Scandinavian social democracy is the political system which produces excellence in health, education, etc.
Under capitalism, the government sets the rules and people play the game.
But who controls the government? Imagine the referee at Harlam Globetrotters vs Washington Generals match; thats the gov’t under capitalism.
. It punishes success and rewards failure.
really, then socialism wouldn’t last long so why worry
The corporations that succeed are the ones that pay off corrupt politicians. These politicians change the rules to benefit those who pay them off.
As in when McConnell when to Wall Street to ask his campaign contributors what they thought.
But who watches the government? The American media is bought and paid for by the government.
You don’t really believe that …. well there was the Valerie Palme affair so perhaps you do have a point.
If the government messes up, then there is no where else to turn. They wield absolute power. They can do whatever they want.
No checks and balances in the US constitution? No elections
We are protected by laws you say? Well, someone must be willing to take them on. And they can ignore the law change the law to feed their unrelenting greed and corruption.
Whose “they”?
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We elected people who couldn’t care less about the Consitution. We deserve them.
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How many of you who are complaining about healthcare reform on alleged Constitutional grounds supported Bush’s warrantless wiretaps?
If you raised your hand, go look in a mirror to see the face of hypocrisy.
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Steveg – 61
You are grasping at straws – the health care mess hasn’t one thing to do with your feeble attempt at a comparison.
TRY AGAIN – this is one of your dart games gone bad!
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#61
SteveG, just so you know where I am coming from, check post #30. Indeed you are right with #61, however I am not sure how many people here actually support the wiretapping and other un-Constitutional elements of the PATRIOT act.
#62 Victoria
I do not see what straws SteveG is grasping. Both situations are messed up where the Constitution got overridden. To be purely Constitutional would require opposing both.
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Rom,
The health bill has nothing to do with anything else – it’s nonsense to compare it to something like wiretaps. Anyone who would try this comparison is grasping at straws, but then most of the libs are doing just that -
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Victoria,
Rom & Steve have valid points:
1. There are scores — perhaps hundreds — more violations of the US Constitution than just ObamaCare. And
2. Those violations are non- (or perhaps “bi-”?) partisan — i.e., they occur when either party holds the White House, and/or House and/or Senate majorities.
People of either party who only manage to squawk when the opposition party violates the law of the land — while overlooking or justifying the violations committed by their own party — are hypocrites of the first rank.
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#51 Scroop,
It’s unutterably dumbfounding that
We long ago declared you dumbfounded. what is incredible are the irrational arguments you , Steve G, HRW, and other leftists will try to attempt to dumbfound others. Not by being intelligent, just by being outrageously, irresponsibly arrogant.
In #55 barracuda is right. We don’t need nor want HRW’s comments. The blog needs a filter to get rid of his nonsense. It is more than obvious that he seeks to hurt the US. And his profligate postings are painful to see and certainly not helpful to read.
Steve G comes in and tries to call everyone a hypocrite that doesn’t believe him.
It is no wonder there is such anger in the general public because of people like the above.
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#65 Frank,,
I certainly hope you are not attempting to call Victoria a hypocrite. She is not a hypocrite. Her true statement that Obamacare stands out egregiously is 100% correct. It is in scope and intent the most evil thing to happen in the history of the country. There are other sins committed by politicians and I for one have squawked about almost all of them from either side. But to attempt to say there is anything on the other side like Obamacare is dishonest.
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#61 – I see that SteveG does not even have a valid argument in response to this post so he digs up a completely invalid and completely irrelevant point in order to call names at those with whom he disagrees.
I think some might be able to make a case that Abraham Lincoln got close to not being perfectly true to the Constitution in suspending Habias Corpus and other things for the sake of national security, but I don’t think that argument holds water with regard to the Patriot Act (which did not take anyone’s actual rights aweay) and the tapping of some communication from known terrorists implemented by the Bush administration to protect us in a new technological age from terrorism.
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#61 SteveG – How many of you who are complaining about Bush’s “warrantless” wiretaps and care not one whit that Obama just signed an extension to the Patriot Act and will take it to the next level? (See #38)
“The Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no “reasonable expectation of privacy” in their–or at least their cell phones’–whereabouts.”
If you raised your hand, go look in a mirror to see the face of hypocrisy.
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And his profligate postings are painful to see and certainly not helpful to read.
Well reasoned leftist opinions are hard for some to view who have lived in a vacuum surrounded like minded opinions. You have to hate it when the internet refuses to act like an echo chamber. Perhaps you should campaign for the establishment of filters to prevent contrary opinions from reaching your home computer. I hear Google has some leftover equipment when they were asked to leave China. You see the Chinese don’t like their eyes hurt either.
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#67 Monty
You are dead wrong in your statement that Obamacare “is in scope and intent the most evil thing to happen in the history of the country.” Roe v Wade was far more evil than it, and so was writing in the Constitution that black people were legally 3/5 human.
#67 and #68
So violating the 4th Amendment does not matter to either of you? And yes, Joel, the PATRIOT act does violate the 4th amendment quite blatantly.
#69
Xion, SteveG has never stated his support for Obama’s extension of the PATRIOT act, which frankly makes it even more similar to Communist China’s national security measures, aka all dissidents get all their movements recorded and stored in a file. ‘Tis impossible to accuse a man of hypocrisy if he never stated his support for a hypocritical statement.
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#57 – It seems like a normal person would have to experience that kind of trauma and humiliation to feel as though taxation with representation is anything like armed robbery.
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#71 Rom,
I am not dead wrong. But we can agree to disagree n the issue. My viewpoint is this. Roe v Wade “abortion on demand” has killed millions of souls. It has been around for a while. It targets unborn children. Obamacare is just getting started and it targets everyone. “Abortion on demand” will just be a subset of Obamacare. Obama is known for infanticide. We know he does not care for human life. Millions more will die under Obamacare than Roe v Wade.
The declaration that ‘others’ were ⅗ was an accounting device to allocate taxes and representation based on numbers. As you may also note that ‘Indians” not already taxed were also treated shabbily. The North wanted all slaves to become ‱ The South wanted slaves to be one hundred percent in the count. The ⅗ was a compromise. Not a truly shining moment. Under Obamacare everyone is devalued. You are not human at all but merely wards of the state , living at the whim of the state. And your only freedom is that given to you (and hence can be removed from you) by the state.
In my humble opinion for these and other reasons, Obamacare is far worse and far more evil.
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By your definition Monty it is not worse but it is an extension, from the young losing the right to live to everyone’s freedoms being at the whim of the state. I digress because in my opinion once your mother can kill you for whatever reason, everyone has no rights. Inalienable rights have not existed since 1973. Thus it is far worse than Obamacare.
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By inalienable rights have not existed I mean they have not been recognized by the federal gov’t.
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I agree with you. It is an extension. and true when you can be killed in the womb the next step is killing you at any time and any place. Both Roe V Wade and Obamacare came into existence against the will of the people.
But I still see Obamacare as far more evil even if it but the next logical step in stupidity arrogance and evil. But evil is evil and we fight against all of it. So we stand side by side.
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He has not the blood of 50 million souls on his head. For all his faults, Obama so far is only responsible for the deaths from the reversal of the Mexico City Policy. Publicly funded abortion on demand is not yet existent.
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Those who support abortion are responsible for the deaths of infants who die, because of their continued support of abortion.
When an individual believes that their child IF being pregnant would be punished by a baby, and they support the pregancy to be aborted has no moral fiber.
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Rom,
“So far” are the words to heed.
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I agree with you, Victoria. You are so right.
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#78 Victoria
I utterly love how your second sentence is based off an Obama quote you love to assign your own meaning to. But even with Obama’s continued support of abortion, he has yet to tie the judges who legalized abortion in the first place. And beyond the Mexico City Policy he has not done much.
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Rom,
REGARDING the quote Obama made, it’s famous throughout the country as one of the most hideous remarks a man could make regarding a future grandchild, nesting in the womb of one of his daughters. The punishment of the daughter is nothing compared to the unrepentant punishment of such a dastardly deed as abortion, to satisfy the selfish wishes of a daughter, and or her parents.
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Rom116 – Read #61 and then reread what I wrote in #69. Thanks.
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And your point is XION? I do not fall under either label of hypocrite according to both posts. Thanks.
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I wasn’t talking about you Rom116. I was mirroring SteveG’s precise words. Let the record show that when SteveG and I use the same words, you criticize only me. Double standard, anyone?
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Rom116. On a different note, Romans 11:6 is one of my favorite verses. Can you tell me what significance it has for you?
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It is about how God has His remnant chosen by grace, not by works.
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Actually I did criticize SteveG. I am sorry you missed it.
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SCROOP MOTH wrote, “It’s unutterably dumbfounding that Evangelicals are crying “tyrany” over a policy that comes from Heritage Foundation 1993 and Mass. Romneycare.
Evangelicals are so deranged that they have lost interest in the actual detail of policy but choose instead to rage over the most cosmic vulgarities of the battle between good and evil, and the most picky grievances over process.
Republicans are saying things like this behind closed doors, folks. DC INNES is a bad lieutenant of your movement.”
I am inclined to think you may be right on most of what is in your last two paragraphs. As for the first paragraph and your comments in general:
1) Romney is a Mormon, not a Christian. See my earlier note on cults.
2) Heritage is conservative, not Christian.
3) Jesus does not call you to be a Conservative, but to turn from your sin and trust in Him for their forgiveness.
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Well, this says it all:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/18/poll-trust-big-government-nears-historic-low/
When 4 out of 5 Americans don’t trust the government, something is wrong, and those who mock those 4 out of 5 had better shape up and fly right.
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KINGDOM,
Your last three points seem like non sequiturs, unless you think that Evangelicals would of necessity oppose any policy proposal that didn’t originate from Evangelicals.
Besides, Heritage Foundation is as close to Evangelical-think as a think tank could get: Paul Weyrich, the Moral Majority, Richard De Vos, Hillsdale College, etc.
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SCROOP,
No, I thought you were lumping them in with evangelicals, to impune them by identity and not association.
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Well, after the Obama administration extended the Patriot Act without reform and requested the warrant-less cell phone tracking, they just attempted and failed to obtain the right for the Federal government to read everyone’s email.
What hypocrisy for liberals to continue to attack Bush on the Patriot Act, while Obama is trying to go so far beyond that.
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Liberals have been attacking Obama over the rule of law at every step. Keith Olbermann never fails to put on Jonathan Turley to blast Obama for any travesty against civil liberties. Glenn Greenwald writes column upon column of criticism. I’ve seen criticism on all the sites I visit, from NYTimes to DKos
The optimistic explanation is that Obama is hoarding war-like credentials for some future liberal gesture. The pessimistic explanation is that the puppet masters of American empire won’t let Obama do otherwise.
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#94 Scroop Or maybe Obama doesn’t care that much about civil rights. Could you maybe convince SteveG that his anger is misplaced? You guys need to get over Bush and pay attention what the current president is doing.
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Getting over Bush was the original sin of Obama’s administration. Obama wanted not to fight the past, but history didn’t give him a choice. He either had to buy into the crimes of the war on terror or prosecute them. So, he bought into to them — unlimited warrantless wiretapping, renditions and executive detention, coercive interrogations, the secret gulag, and arbitrary process. He promised he won’t actually exercise these claimed powers while preserving them. If he had forsaken the practices, instead of creating legal justifications for them, Obama would have had to prosecute Cheney et. al. But of course he adopted the whole shebang, and by not prosecuting he violated the Geneva convention. Obama joined the occult company of the practitioners of empire. I imagine it was not a willing choice. If he puts Elena Kagan on SCOTUS, the only rationale will be executive authority. From community organizing to emperor of the west. I hope I’m hallucinating.
I hear GWB is drinking up the ranch at the end of his mind.
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Moth, of course, you know that GW is the one who doesn’t do wine & Salems any more.
And Jake Tapper assures us that Kagan is not a lesbian.
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Poor Moth -
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What next Moth, are you going to write a book of poems? – that might heal and give you a bit of peace during this trial of Bush, the ranch, violations of the Geneva convention, and last but not least Cheney, that poor intelligent man who can’t be ruffled even if his worst opponents turn into a fluttering mass of duppy birds. By all means stay strong.
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Don’t forget the coffee, you’ll need it -
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