Virginity is obsolete
The Washington Post recently put together a list of “Twelve Things the World Should Toss Out.” Compiled by various contributors to the newspaper, it was intended as a kind of clever discussion of spring-cleaning on a global scale.
Among the suggestions for the scrap heap of history were tactical nukes, the Congressional Budget Office, exit polls, and virginity. Yes, virginity.
Washington Post blogger Jessica Valenti, who is also author of The Purity Myth: How America’s Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women, cited a few reasons for her suggestion.
“It’s fine to have some way of demarcating sexual initiation,” she wrote, “but old-school definitions of purity aren’t it; they’re more about inflicting shame than celebrating rites of passage. It’s time we talked about sex as something healthy and natural.”
Ms. Valenti and The Washington Post aren’t the only ones talking about virginity as an obsolete concept. Earlier this month, a group called Harvard Queer Students and Allies hosted a conference called “Rethinking Virginity.” According to The Harvard Crimson, “Many of the speakers at the panels . . . agreed that sex and virginity are often associated with loss and even shame. They argued for a more positive approach to sexuality.”
The Crimson quoted Megara Bell, founder of Partners in Sex Education, as contending, “We don’t want to teach that sex is dirty and gross, but suddenly becomes okay in marriage.”
Of course, it’s hard to talk about sex as healthy when one-in-four teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Or when another young person is infected with genital bacteria or a virus every 3.5 seconds, as Dr. Miriam Grossman notes in her book about sex ed, You’re Teaching My Child What?
As to shame, who needs religion anyway? It’s those darn traditional Judeo-Christian values that are to blame for concepts like shame and guilt, and teachings about sex and marriage. Life would be so much easier without silly notions of right and wrong. We could spend all our time celebrating rites of passage and simply doing what comes naturally.

















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back to top91 Comments to “Virginity is obsolete”
My quick, knee-jerk reaction is longing for the good old days of hypocrisy – the homage paid to sinfulness.
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Louise: Hypocrisy is the homage sin pays to righteousness. The shame and hiding of the hypocrite indicate the sinner’s awareness that there is a righteous standard that is being transgressed.
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The world’s way is always to approach sin backwards. Instead of seeking forgiveness for sin (requiring a little humility), Ms. Valenti tries to convince herself and others that there is no sin. Methinks she doth protest too much. In our hearts, we all know right and wrong and feelings of guilt can be Truth instead of a nasty feeling to assuage by falsehoods.
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I must agree though that Christians often teach sexuality from a negative perspective. True this is changing somewhat, but overall there is a negative pall tossed on the subject.
It is necessary to teach the virtues of purity and the necessity for feeling shame when righteousness is compromised. Boys and girls need to be taught about the dangers of genital bacteria and other worse complications of casual and or serial monogamy outside of marriage.
But answering the “why” of the virtues and safety of sex in marriage should take top billing over the dangers of shame and disease in teaching about sexuality.
I am reminded of the words of Dallas Willard when talking about the cost of discipleship vs. that of non-discipleship:
“Our discipleship to Christ costs nothing less than everything.” Dallas Willard writes, “the cost of non-discipleship is far greater . . . “Non-discipleship costs abiding peace, a life penetrated throughout by love, faith that see everything in light of God’s overriding governance for good, hopefulness that stands firm in the most discouraging of circumstances, power to do what is right and withstand the forces of evil. In short, it cost exactly that abundance of life Jesus said he came to bring.”
What one thinks is gained in a casual sexual relationship pales in comparison to the gains of sex within God’s holy and righteous construct.
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My response to the title: “Not at my house.”
I agree completely, if sex is such a wonderful wholesome activity that needs no restraint, why are STDs so rampant? The assumption in medical circles now is that any woman over 30 probably has some sort of STD. I posted an article a couple weeks ago stating that gonorrhea–which once was nearly extinct–has roared back so ferociously that there’s only one strain of antibiotic they can use against it, and that strain is now showing a resistance to knocking out gonorrhea.
And of course, we’ve got a syphilis epidemic going on as well–but no one ever talks about that. And don’t get me started on herpes, HPV and Hep B.
Infertility, death, damage to infants, insanity–it puts us all at risk because the drugs aren’t working any more.
So, how about this for ideas that should be tossed aside: the notion you have anything you want without repercussions.
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Ken, thank you so much!! My brain was searching for that, but this whole issue has things bolloxed up – whatever that really means.
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Correction – my first post should have read:
Hypocrisy is the homage sin pays to Righteousness!
We could do with a lot more hypocrisy, sted these shameless in-your-facers.
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I have taken a lot of grief on these threads for the stand I have taken about sex with my daughter. I do want her to know that it is natural and healthy in the right context. We talk about sex between the two of us as we talk about the changes her body will go through over the next few years. She comes home and tells me about the girls she has heard about having sex. SHE IS IN MIDDLE SCHOOL! She told me about one girl she knows that a boy was pressuring to have sex and the girl refused. The boy hasn’t spoken to the girl since. I said, “Well, good. He wouldn’t have spoken to her anyway if he had gotten what he wanted”.
I have explained to her that her body is too small for sex and that it can be damaging to her in later years. Actions you take today can have consequences later. I also use humor: Boys have cooties until you’re thirty and they carry diseases. We talk about respecting yourself and your body. We talk about God and purity. I have been honest with her about when I first had sex. I have promised her I will never lie to her.
When she came home the first time telling me some of the stuff going on I lost it and told her it was trashy behavior and she wasn’t trash and if I found out ….blah, blah, blah. When I calmed down we had a rational discussion.
I am lucky in that she has a 19 year old cousin who is a girl and tells her she doesn’t need a boyfriend until she is out of high school at least (Niece just finished her freshman year of college). She also has a 23 year old male cousin who was bad and got in all sorts of trouble who sees what is going on around Baby Girl and rats her out to me on a regular basis. (Funny to see how the tide has turned now that he is 23 and his baby cousin is about to be a teenager).
I do little things to give my daughter self confidence so that she won’t go looking for approval in all the wrong places. This morning as I was pulling her hair back I made a comment about what a pretty hairline she has and how her Aunt is jealous and has to wear bangs. When she says her nose is big and ugly I tell her it is not. She has my nose and that is my best feature (I do have a really great nose. It is cute and tiny.) I tell her that her eyes are shaped like her fathers and that was one of the things that attracted me to him. I think some of the girls who have sex too early are looking for love and affirmation that they aren’t getting at home.
ON THE OTHER HAND, there are some women who come to the United States for an education and may even work here for a few years until they return home for an arranged marriage. They may have been in a relationship with someone here and may have had sex but must be a virgin in order to return home for marriage. Because of this we now have a medical procedure that can re-virgitize them. In that particular case I am opposed to the taboo that a woman MUST be a virgin on her wedding night.
I just pray every night that somehow I will muddle through this and she will grow up to be a young lady.
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Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! -Isaiah 5:20
You have wearied the Lord with your words. But you say, “How have we wearied him?” By saying, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delights in them.” Or by asking, “Where is the God of justice?” -Malachi 2:17
We’re a sad lot if we don’t warn the people.
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Kim, I pretty much agree with you. My mother didn’t hesitate to tell me things that had happened to her, and she made it clear when I went to work in my late teens and 20s that if something funny happened in an office, just walk out if there was no other way to defuse it. Because I knew I could go home and say I quit, it didn’t bother me to talk back and say NO when a boss tried something.
23 year old cousin can come in handy if he’s willing to tell your daughter the truth about boys, if you get my drift.
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“It’s fine to have some way of demarcating sexual initiation,” she wrote, “but old-school definitions of purity aren’t it; they’re more about inflicting shame than celebrating rites of passage. It’s time we talked about sex as something healthy and natural.”
Valenti
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The supposed chemical-onlyite is attempting a “moral” decision about “purity” and “shame”. Did she forget that she was only chemicals, and thus, unable for such processing?
Did she sleep through the dinosaur animations in evolution class?
:-O
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It’s time for her to receive Christ, and take hold of wonderful promises..
“For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Heb 9:13-14)
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NJL, that is about the way I felt/feel. When I was 17 my dad told me I needed to get a part time job. I worked at Burger King for about two weeks. The young guy manager thanked me for the work I was doing and rubbed/patted my rear end. I walked in the next day with my uniform folded up. He said, you didn’t come dressed for work. I told him I came to tell him I no longer worked there.
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As I remarked elsewhere when I first saw this article:
Its hard to argue with this quote: “efforts to enforce chastity aren’t just backward — they’re a failure”. The key word being “enforce”.
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#11 – She is trying to approach “moral” as only being “useful”. But, useful for what? What is the purpose that she is advocating? What is the “end” toward which this utilitarian morality is heading?
With respect to the topic – the main thing is purity. I might even agree that a singular focus on “virginity” can be to the detriment of actual full-person PURITY. I’ve participated in teaching High School youth group students at our church on the topic of purity, and they have it that if they are technically “still virgins” they are living a pure life. We work hard to help them see the topic in terms of honoring God with your body, not just purely avoiding sex (though, at their age and marital status, that is clearly part of it). Purity is much more than simply virginity. And it doesn’t lose importance if you have messed up in the past.
However, that’s not the direction they seem to be heading in that article.
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My Episcopal church just had a class for young ladies on sex education and body changes with the parish nurse who happens to work for an OB/Gyn. She told them all the ways STD’s can be transmitted and that just because you are technically a virgin doesn’t mean you are safe. After she finished the priest came in and talked to the girls about what purity meant and gave them all a silver bracelet with a cross on it.
I shared this with my Baptist church mothers and they thought it was such a good idean they went to the youth minister and they are putting together a class for boys and girls this summer.
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Kim, boys and girls separate, I hope?
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Oh, Yes! Sorry I didn’t make that clear. In my Moms Bible Study we discussed how the “world” is out there teaching them about sex and the church just sits with their hands piously folded saying sex before marriage is a sin. We need to equip them with the information. We, the church, needs to step forward and talk about it instead of it being a taboo subject. Believe me it’s not like they haven’t heard something already.
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RE #15 Kim
Our church did a similar thing but used promise rings—simple silver band—for the left ring finger. It was effective—or the message behind it was effective—for our kids as I have no reason to think otherwise.
Valenti’s apparent agenda is just her age-old, open rebellion to God—nothing more. The unfortunate thing is that—yet again—credence and serious consideration is being given to her unoriginal ruminations like they have never been offered before.
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Today, 40 percent of babies in America are born to unmarried women. Our problem is not that we are “inflicting shame” on people but that we are glorifying and celebrating sin and sluttiness in order to wipe out all traces of shame.
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Kim wrote; “I have taken a lot of grief on these threads for the stand I have taken…”
This is pretty standard anywhere these days for anyone who seriously advocates any shred of decency.
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No Joel. I have taken grief on WMB. I tell my daughter things. I tell her what I want her to do. What I hope she will do. What I pray she will do. BUT I also tell her that even knowing how I fell IF she decides that she is going to have sex, she MUST come to me, her aunt, or a good friend of mine and let us protect her from pregnancy and she MUST INSIST the guy use a condom to cut down on the risk of STD’s although she also knows that is no guarantee and she could be risking her entire future.
She also knows that girls/women who make the wrong choices do not go off to college, join sorities and have fun. They stay home, go to school, work part time to support their child and that mommy (me) will only watch a baby while she is in school. She will pay a babysitter otherwise. Choices have consequences.
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The day we start shaping our ethics by secular advocacy journalist ideologues like Jessica Valenti, is the day we die as a nation. So much of secular journalism is in the toilet and the toilet in America may soon be bigger than the house itself.
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Kim,
Do you mean “grief” or honest and earnest disagreement? They are not the same thing you know.
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Kim, has she asked about abortion or adoption or marriage instead of raising a baby by herself? This whole line of discussioin is foreign to most women in my retired age group. And now, per feminists, we’ve swung to the other extreme in terms of “normal.”
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Oops, Kim, I didn’t mean you in my comment on extreme
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Perhaps I do mean honest and earnest disagreement. I just know that I have always made the statement that there is enough birth control available these days that abortions shouldn’t even have to be considered an option unless it was rape, incest, or the life of the mother(however in most instances like that the mother has had cancer and has chosen to carry the baby to term…at least the ones I know).
Quite honestly, if my 14 year old daughter came home pregnant, abortion would at least skitter through my brain before I came to my senses and thought, OK here is what is. What are we going to do?
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“It’s time we talked about sex as something healthy and natural.” ~ Washington Post blogger Jessica Valenti.
“We don’t want to teach that sex is dirty and gross, but suddenly becomes okay in marriage.” ~ Megara Bell, founder of Partners in Sex Education.
People with brains must respond to spins like this. The false presumption is that decent people with standards (especially Christians) view sex as dirty, unnatural and gross. It’s a straw presumption that is false and dishonest from the start. We view sex as SACRED. It’s God’s gift and so is marriage. Sex combined with marriage melds sex with love and commitment within a genuine relationship.
What Bell and Valenti apparently believe is that sex and love need not have much to do with each other.
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Joel, that is why we as the church have got to start teaching our views of sex. The “world” teaches that sex is enjoyable and fun and everyone deserves to enjoy themselves and have fun. The “world” also teaches that Christians think sex is dirty and shameful. That is why the church needs to teach that sex is fun and enjoyable in the right context.
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Oh and by the way, when I was her age I was going to have a boy named James Andrew and a girl named Emma Alexandra. I never gave much thought to whether or not I was going to work or stay home.
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My paraphrase of Valenti’s line: “It’s time we talked about casual pre-marital sex as something healthy and natural.”
My paraphrase of Bell’s line: “We don’t want to teach that gratuitous extra-marital sex is dirty and gross, but suddenly becomes okay in marriage.”
One of the great things about marriage is that it does legitimize sex in the context of mutual commitment and covenant. It protects the woman. If guys can get it without marriage, then they can get the goods and not give of himself in mutual terms in the self-serving process.
Girls, don’t lower your price tag. You are worth making the guy pay the full amount (no cheap bargains)–giving himself fully to you on mutual terms for life.
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feels nice to be obsolete.
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Doesn’t it, though, Thorn? No rush to keep up with the Joneses, and no envy of them either, since we see the pain of the choices they make.
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Girls, don’t lower your price tag. You are worth making the guy pay the full amount (no cheap bargains)–giving himself fully to you on mutual terms for life.
What a disgusting point of view, for so many reasons. I’ll try to enumerate them:
1. If puts women in the position of selling sex. It turns them into prostitutes.
2. It casts women as being uninterested in sex except insofar as it can be sold for something they are interested in, e.g. commitment and emotional/financial support.
3. It casts men as being uninterested in meaningful relationship, and “buying” sex in exchange for financial/emotional support.
Terrible.
Question for those who lament the state of sexuality in America today:
Imagine a culture in which 20% men have their first sexual experience with a prostitute. Would you say this is “basically where we are today” or that we’re not there yet? Is this statistic evidence of a culture that is hopelessly far gone with respect to sexual purity?
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~~Please do not accuse me of an overreaction. This is an honest post.~~
One look at the title and I thought someone was condoning sex with infants, as people are born virgins, aren’t they?
Then I the post and realized I was only off by about 15 to 20 years.
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BuddyGlass,
Your response to my comment shows no understanding of it at all. I recognize nothing of what I believe or said in your twisted take on it.
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Not lowering your “price tag” is simply a euphemism for valuing yourself at a higher level. It’s called self-respect. Don’t resprt to “cheap” lifestyles. I was enouraging a sense of value and dignity. I think that is obvious in my original comment.
There would be no discussion at all on this if women were uninterested in sex. My comment presumed their interest. You twisted that clear presumption, Buddyglass. After all, she must give herself fully too, on mutual terms (as I clearly said).
Women should only accept men who are interested in a meaningful relationship. That was my point. That’s the kind of men women should want and that men should wnt to be.
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40% ????
Really????
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Thanks Kim at 28, she smiled quizzically. As a Christian, it’d be so easy for me to say what I would do if I had a teenage daughter now. So I just better keep quiet. BTW, when and how did venereal diseases get relabeled as sexually transmitted diseases? Is that another “dumbing down” or did I miss another generational reinterpretation? I’m serious. VD was scary enough to keep a lot of people in line, especially as the new strains came back from Vietnam.
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#34 Buddyglass — 1. If puts women in the position of selling sex. It turns them into prostitutes.
Only if you consider sex a commodity. Try to elevate your thinking significantly—a long way up from the bottom of the gutter.
2. It casts women as being uninterested in sex except insofar as it can be sold for something they are interested in, e.g. commitment and emotional/financial support.
Ignorance—pure ignorance. Human beings are all interested in sex since it’s a natural reproductive feature innate in everyone.
However, such ‘disinterested’ thinking is an intentional, higher order exercise of self-control to not seek or require brief, animalistic gratification through random rutting at the slightest provocation divorced completely from a deep meaning, relational exchange between a covenantally committed man and woman which God intended it to be.
3. It casts men as being uninterested in meaningful relationship, and “buying” sex in exchange for financial/emotional support.
Only when you consider women as worthless servile creatures which you describe in #1. Again with trying to think above the curb, or rim—whichever fits your situation best.
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The many comments here are true and meant to be helpful, but I fear that attempts to prevent premarital sexual relations by describing all the possible consequences — and they are terrible — is much like trying to frighten the unbeliever to accept Christianity by describing the eternal horrors of hell. Recognize the risks but emphasize instead the blessings of waiting, something, unfortunately, only understood in retrospect.
The most important gift that the couple can give to each other when they marry is their chastity, a one-time gift that can never be rescinded, will provide pure joy, never need be apologized for, and never carry feelings of guilt.
The temptation to illicit sex is certainly among the strongest temptations we are exposed to and the despoiler of our souls knows it well. Blessed indeed is he — and she — who can resist this enemy.
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Allen, respectfully, I’m not sure “waiting” goes far enough either. What do you say to people like me and Thorn. I’m not sure how old he is (thirties?), but what if we never get married? What then has been the point of “waiting”? You can’t tell your child to wait for dinner and not have any candy if you don’t serve dinner at your home.
Our sexuality has a bigger purpose than self-gratification, and those of us who are single (and chaste) fit in that sexual plan just as much as married people do. “Waiting” may (or may not) work as a message to a 15-year-old . . . for an immediate gratification teen, not sure that’s the best approach either . . . but it doesn’t really “work” anymore as a good motivation for those who have been single for decades. (Especially since we all know multiple people who didn’t wait and still got married, some of whom have quite happy marriages–so if there’s a prize involved, how come they got the prize and we who “earned” it didn’t?) Understanding our sexuality works for all of us, chaste singles, those needing to repent of sexual sins, married people, and the widowed and divorced.
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Is Valenti still in favor of people wearing clothes?
:-O
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Nobodoy cares to comment on the “20% first time with prostitutes” stat?
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Teaching birth control to grades eight, I always end with the question “What is the best form of birth control?” It usually takes a few answers and its usually a girl but finally someone will say “just don’t do it”. Its at this time I tell them the four steps to achieve the middle class lifestyle.
1. Finish school
2. Find a career
3. Find a mate
4. Now you can have a kid
It helps to mention that if you worked before you had a kid, you can have one year off with pay.
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Buddyglass, is post 34 a joke? Because equating waiting for marriage with prostitution is the weirdest argument I’ve ever seen.
And your 20% with a prostitute is hard to figure out, because, first of all, you phrased it as a question and not a statement. So is it 20% in American today, and if not, what was your point? It’s truly unlikely, it seems to me . . . if a guy can get it for free, why would he pay for a prostitute? Do 14-year-olds really hire prostitutes (which is pretty much what it takes today to have one’s “first time” be with a prostitute)? It also seems almost irrelevant–what is the moral difference between paying for a prostitute and uncommitted sex with one’s boyfriend/girlfriend? Either way, people are being treated as expendable goods.
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“Buddyglass, is post 34 a joke? Because equating waiting for marriage with prostitution is the weirdest argument I’ve ever seen”
No, not a joke. And I’m not equating all marriages to prostitution. Not mine, certainly. My comment was on JM’s presentation of marriage. In other words, “Don’t just give your sex away- make the guy pay for it. Make him marry you before he gets the good stuff.” This portrays “sex” as a bargaining chip. It also portrays it as something valuable to a man, but not so much to a woman. Bear in mind that sex is a mutual act. If it were mutually rewarding, then the woman would not be able to extract a “price” for agreeing to participate. The mere fact that JM suggests she should extract a price implies the sex act is a “net win” for the man. Because of this, he argues she should seek something in return in order to make the exchange equitable.
“And your 20% with a prostitute is hard to figure out”
This statistic is not true for America today. I was asking a hypothetical question. If this were the case “somewhere”, would you view that culture to be hopelessly far gone with respect to sexual purity? Would you view that culture more or less favorably compared to present day America? Does the 20% stat strike you as particularly shocking? (It does me.)
“what is the moral difference between paying for a prostitute and uncommitted sex with one’s boyfriend/girlfriend”
Both are adultery, sure. In that sense they’re the same. Consensual “free” sex, though, is typically a mutual thing between two people who care for one other to some degree or another. Or, if not, its at least two people who are giving each other mutual pleasure. With prostitution the sex act is wholly unpleasurable for the prostitute. She’s in it purely for the money. Moreover, by patronizing her, the John perpetuates the “industry” of prostitution by creating additional demand.
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While I would say a lot more to kids including showing them the real consequences of STDs, I do like HRW’s approach about the
middle class lifestyle. Kids relate to having things. One judge used to take the law clerks on a tour of a prison, and quite frankly, I think it would make a great class trip for all students, just as I think a trip to the morgue would cure kids (and maybe some adults!!!!) of texting while driving, smoking, etc.
I think Kim is doing a great job simply by telling the truth. She’s teaching her daughter to respect herself as a person and to THINK.
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Virginity is not obsolete. It gives a girl the chance to grow up, find out who she is and what she really wants in life. Why have the regret that you wish you hadn’t been with a dozen guys when you finally meet “the one?” Why end up with STDs and possibly the inability to have children one day because everybody else is at the party drinking and doing it.
“Waiting” keeps options open for both girls and boys.
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Buddyglass, I find it far more “shocking” that most singles don’t keep their virginity than how they lose it. And a lot of singles having sex don’t actually do it consensually on one person’s part. (It’s a stereotype, but often a true one, about the girl pressured to have sex to keep the guy–and even date rape.) And why should a hypothetical percentage shock a person anyway–what’s the point? (Would it shock you to consider a whole county with 100% death-by-murder rate? Well, if it actually happened, sure. But how can a hypothetical be shocking?)
I don’t understand the argument you have, still. It’s actually true that most men care more about sex than women do, and that traditionally the fact that a woman made the guy wait was part of what allowed women to get married. It’s also true that women don’t just want the “act”; they want the relationship and the commitment (that matters much more to women than to men), and so the idea of waiting till marriage actually is more “empowering” to the woman than to the man. Do you not agree with these basic generalities about men and women? For sure the part that with women, relationship is innately primary . . . we had to really turn our country raunchy before women started turning to pornography, for instance. The face that sex without relationship is negative to a woman is the whole reason prostitution is a distasteful “job” to a woman.
Women deep down inside want relationship first. Culturally we persuaded women not to wait till getting the ring. And guess what? Ta-da–marriage rates are way down. This is not a good thing for women. It’s not a good thing for men or for culture, but it most especially is not a good thing for women.
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It’s not a good thing for children either.
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Buddyglass, honestly, I’d urge you to read a bit on this. It really is a frequent point of misunderstanding between men and women. Treating men and women as people with identical sexual desires hasn’t done either a good service. (Neither has just “accepting” that a lot of marriages have the man begging for sex and the woman withholding . . . or the other way around. That is very definitely a bad thing. But the idea that women are–or should be–sexually charged up the same way as a man isn’t helpful. For a woman, desire is very definitely linked with feeling loved and treasured by her man.)
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Louise I guess VD became and STD when kids were too stupid to make the connection between Venus, the goddes of love, and venereal as in sexual.
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Thank you Kim. I would never have thought of that. So, disassociating even a hint of “love” from sex hasn’t helped much (even though Cheryl’s points are right on). This isn’t exactly new, but equal rights for women in this area, too, makes for more equal opportunity diseases. And that includes the deadly lung cancer. The politics of breast cancer would have us believe that that’s the worst thing, than even STDs, and nothing can be done about it.
If women are going to take more personal responsibility for their lives, I wish they would begin with what they can avoid. But that’s another story. Be well. Your daughter should be fine.
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BuddyGlass,
I cannot detect any intellectual honesty whatesoever in your twisted and distorted misunderstaning of my words. You misrepresent me completely and I think you know it.
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Desite what a promiscuous world would like to think; virginity, chastity and celibacy are not obsolete.
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Buddy Glass,
I’d say that a society like you described is nowhere near as far gone as our society is. In fact, I don’t know that I’d consider that a society that’s far gone at all. It sounds as if almost all of the women are saving themselves for marriage and so are the majority of the men. In fact, it’s probably where we were 100 years ago or more.
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Yahoo is running a news story about a guy who will be taping the auctioning of virgins in Las Vegas. He’s an Australian and prostitution is illegal there, but not in Las Vegas.
Far gone society? You bet.
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Last night I went to amazon and spent some time reading descriptions and reviews of the book mentioned in the article, The Purity Myth: How America’s Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women.
It’s pretty amazing how ignorant the author and her readers are of the “purity movement” she critiques so heartily. She seems to say we divide all women into two categories: virgin and slut. (Well, no, there’s also married women, repentant women, women with limited sexual experience from many years ago . . . but yes, a woman who is “sexually active” and unmarried, especially one with multiple sexual partners, is behaving immorally.) She chooses to separate sexuality from morality altogether. She says that we care only about the sexual purity of women, and not of men (which is not only false, but proves she hasn’t even done much research). She even says that we want to keep women virgins so that they’ll be worth more as commodities when they go on to be owned by husbands. (Huh? Is it really possible to mischaracterize Christian marriage more completely?)
Oh, and this is interesting–she seems to say that those in the purity movement secretly love the extreme versions of porn available today, because they give us an excuse to be extreme and push for sexual purity. Not only is that weird, it’s historically stupid–does she really think that seeing sexual purity as a virtue is such a new phenomenon–or one that will simply disappear if the other side starts to behave a little better?
I didn’t read the book, but did read most of the reviews, and the book’s message really looks ignorant, and pathetic–and unbearably sad. One reviewer, apparently a Christian man, points out the utter sadness of her description of her first sexual experience at 14. She asks what it means, and reading between the lines just a little, her answer is really “nothing.” This is a woman who lost something valuable without ever knowing it, and now writes books telling other people to stop guarding that treasure because it really isn’t worth anything. It really is revealing, and sad.
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Thanks for doing that research, CherylD
My daughter who grew up in this “sexually free” era told me that the modern dating scene is very sad – she said that most girls like to consider themselves as “up-to-date”; i.e., sexual predators, right along with the guys. But, she said, girls aren’t guys, and they wind up being hurt over and over again. And then, when the guys they’ve been being like decide they do want a family, they scoff at the idea of picking one of these girls – they don’t want to marry a slut! They go for the younger, inexperienced girl, because she’s “sexually pure,” or at least seems “more” “sexually pure” than the girls they’ve been having sex with for years. That’s who they want for the mother of their children (unfortunately, they don’t have the wisdom of some of the posters in this thread – they think purity = not having been promiscuous, but, really, the girls they choose just haven’t had the time to be as sexually promiscuous).
There’s hope, of course: if the women continue on in the “sexually free” path, their hearts get harder and harder (normal reaction to painful situations), and they don’t feel the pain like they used to. And, there is always the option of starting all over again with Jesus who makes all things new and cares for the broken-hearted.
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Yes, Cheryl, I would also like to thank you for researching. Clay Vessel your daughter’s story saddens me and I try to protect my own daughter from the same fate. I was shocked yesterday afternoon. I was visiting with a friend. Our girls were inside playing and we were sitting outside chatting. I brought up this thread. She shared with me that she lost her virginity at 14 to the married next door neighbor. She said she was shy and awkward and it was attention.
It is so sad to see these girls trying to act like guys and that it doesn’t effect them but it does. I do know, becuase once upon a time I fell in love with the wrong man. When my broken heart mended it was very much damaged and healed a lot harder than it had been in the past.
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Joel is right. The fundamental issue comes down to values. What should young people and society value? What does God value?
When we say times have changed, what we mean is values have changed. Being a male I can remember my teen years. It was a different era, but humans are the same. I had no access to porn, unlike kids now, but I remember sexual thoughts coursing through my mind almost continually. I could hardly believe the things I would imagine and felt dirty and ashamed.
However, when I was with girls or dating they helped me think differently. It was like beauty and the beast. I looked at them as being so pure and wonderful compared to my beastly instincts. I truly valued them and wanted to treat them with respect. My girl friend brought me to a higher plane and it was heavenly. The last thing I wanted to do was tarnish their purity. The furthest I went in my teen years was kissing.
I did not end up marrying my last girl friend of my teen years, but I we talked about that time later. She said that she wanted me to go further and would have had sex with me at which point I punched myself in the head.
But seriously, I think it was better that we both tried to hold to a higher standard. How highly we valued one another.
It is good for girls to be taught to be pure. They can do a lot to help awkward boys reach a higher plane. It was good to teach boys to be gentlemen and to treat girls with respect. It is good to value lifelong commitments. God is right about these things.
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Cheryl D (42): Thank you for your thoughts. I was in somewhat of a hurry when I wrote yesterday — something I should never do — and obviously didn’t consider some of the implications of “waiting.” Let me see if I can explain myself more fully. (I have sectioned your comments and interspersed my ideas.)
Allen, respectfully, I’m not sure “waiting” goes far enough either. What do you say to people like me if [I] never get married?
Well, would you like to be married? Perhaps you prefer the single life without the obligations and restrictions imposed by having a spouse? Although marriage is a God-given gift to humanity, Jesus tells us that not everyone should marry (Matthew 19) and St. Paul, writing to the church at Corinth clearly states that celibacy in some cases is preferable to marriage (cf. 1 Cor. 7 vss. 1, 8). Furthermore, maybe your standards are such that the opportunity to marry has not presented itself. Is there some reason that you fear the prospect of being married? A tragic miscalculation that might not come to light for a year or two? Trying to raise children in a world that appears to be hell-bent on destroying itself? Personal knowledge of a marriage that seemed so right but yet disintegrated? The early death of your spouse?
What then has been the point of “waiting”?
All right then, except for the remote possibility of a transfusion by contaminated blood (recall tennis pro Arthur Ashe) you will never contract a sexually communicable disease, the point of many earlier comments here. Unmarried, you will never have to explain the presence of a son or daughter. You will not be ashamed to stand before the Father knowing that you have broken His law. Your life will be an excellent example of obedience to your niece or nephew or Sunday School class.
Our sexuality has a bigger purpose than self-gratification, and those of us who are single (and chaste) fit in that sexual plan just as much as married people do.
Not in a thousand years, if such should be allotted to me, would I suggest that unmarried, chaste individuals are somehow less significant in God’s scheme of things than their married brothers and sisters. Can you imagine the Christian faith today — or ever — if our Lord and Master had married and fathered children? Impossible, Dan Brown notwithstanding!
“Waiting” may (or may not) work as a message to a 15-year-old . . . for an immediate gratification teen, not sure that’s the best approach either . . . but it doesn’t really “work” anymore as a good motivation for those who have been single for decades.
Quite correct. And I should prefer not to think of the unmarried state as something that “works,” which suggests pragmatism, because as you realize it is unsatisfying and doesn’t work except for those who pride themselves on their perceived higher standards than God requires.
(Especially since we all know multiple people who didn’t wait and still got married, some of whom have quite happy marriages–so if there’s a prize involved, how come they got the prize and we who “earned” it didn’t?)
Purely by God’s grace, Cheryl D — or a dogged determination to live by the ideals sworn to when we presented ourselves to be united, in which case it’s hardly a prize. It is quite possible for a couple to sincerely love one another, even at a young age, and still exceed the bounds. My wife and I went further than we should have before we married, yet expect to celebrate our 60th anniversary in August; happier, more trusting, more loving, more at peace than ever before. We did not “earn” anything, we deserved only God’s wrath but instead He understood, He forgave, and then accepted us into His forever family.
Understanding our sexuality works for all of us, chaste singles, those needing to repent of sexual sins, married people, and the widowed and divorced.
Amen.
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Xion I wish more men would teach more young men. I understand it is the nature of men to want sex, but if they understood “the plan” better maybe they would be more gentle and understanding. I had one guy tell me his father told him that every piece of ^&& he didn’t get was a piece he wouldn’t get.
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Thanks for your post at #62, XION.
I recently attended the funeral of the father of an ex-girl friend of mine. We dated in the late 70s/early 80s and have remained good friends ever since. Her husband is also a dear friend now. I had a nice talk with her oldest son at the funeral and was able to tell him what a pure heart his mother had and has. I do not regret respecting her those days so long ago.
And in honor of her dad (who also remained a dear friend to me over the years), I must admit that not respecting one of his daughters would have been the same as not respecting my future.
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Allen, I agree with everything you wrote. In fact, I have a few pages in print (in another author’s book) on reasons that sexual purity makes sense even if one doesn’t ever marry.
I’ve gone back and forth on whether I’d rather marry or stay single, with the understanding (of course) that marriage is for a lifetime, and my thought has really always been that if the right man came along and asked for my hand, I’d marry him. I’m not “called” to singleness–but I am content in singleness (and know many who are not).
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OK, my computer was hanging up, so I had to send that and continue . . . but note that when I put something in quotes, often it is because it isn’t the right word, but is the word that people use. I agree, for example, that the message to a teen shouldn’t primarily be pragmatism. If sexual purity is somehow worse for one’s future than indiscretion, it is still the right thing to do. Right and wrong aren’t based on what “works” (though in God’s created universe, right does often fit the real world better than wrong).
My issue with the word “waiting” isn’t really whether sexual purity is the best thing for lifelong singles; I believe that it is. My problem is that “waiting” implies a time when one no longer has to wait. A 22-year-old waits for sex believing she will get married someday and will no longer have to “wait.” An engaged young man has an even better promise of future sexual fulfillment, and thus his waiting has an end point. By the time you’re speaking to people who are statistically unlikely to get married (I’ll be 43 next month, so I fit in that camp), “waiting” is the wrong word. It implies a future of not waiting anymore.
I’d say, then, that the word “waiting” is actually never quite the right word, except perhaps with that engaged couple who can see the end of waiting. I’d say we need to look at it more positively, even–not “waiting” and “saying no” as a negative, but “sexual purity” as a positive. My sexual purity is a gift to God and to other believers. I have no one whose wife I wouldn’t want to meet, and I can be an example to younger women. (The repentant woman can too.) Sexual purity isn’t just “something I can’t do,” but something positive. It’s even a distraction I don’t have.
I know that a lot of singles in their twenties would have a hard time looking at me and seeing my state as a positive good. But twenty years from now when they’re still unmarried, and have had 15 sexual partners, an abortion or two, and a couple of diseases, not to mention a heart that has been shattered past the ability to trust . . . well, let’s just say that from what I hear, that is absolutely typical for young women a generation after me. It isn’t a rare individual who has dealt with that kind of baggage. Friends who speak on sexual purity assure me it used to be rare, but isn’t anymore. And that young lady may think I’m weird, but twenty years from now, oh how she’d long to have my story and not hers. We have to do everything we can to tell her that my story may not be her ideal (if she’d prefer marriage), it’s a whole lot better than unrestrained sexual pleasure. I don’t live with regrets; the one who follows her sexual desires (or the man’s sexual desires even though she doesn’t actually share them) will live with regrets.
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Cheryl, you reminded me of something a friend once said. We caution and caution young women about an unwanted pregnancy but we never caution them that sexual impurity may one day lead to the heartache of not being able to conceive a child. In my case I know this was not the problem. My husband had been warned by doctors since he was a teen that he may not be able to father a child. In several of my friends cases it may have been a factor. Virginity is a gift that can only be given once. Our young girls look at our actions. I do believe we need to tell them the truth. They need to hear your story as well as mine.
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I think we all, female and male, grow through various stages in our lives where simply obeying what’s right and what’s wrong is more than reason enough to accept and follow those precepts without rationalizing our impulses and decisions one way or another.
Things are not ALWAYS black & white, but they are often enough for us to live for and focus on something OTHER than our sexual gratification. It’s another area where Christians let the world guide the message, if not the agenda – and too many of us fall for it.
We are blessed. Tomorrow is another Lord’s day.
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I want to stress again, despite what a promiscuous world wants us to think and gets us focused on; virginity, chastitiy and celibacy are not obsolete – and we should unequivocally live that way as a matter of happy fact.
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The prospects IN CHRIST are glorious!…
NEVER let the devil tangle you up old worldly life contemplations..
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Php 3:13-14)
Lay aside..
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 12:1)
Presentaion as chaste virgins? Is it possible?
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co 11:2)
Blameless, faultless?
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. (1Th 5:23-24)
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 1:24-25)
Power in BLOOD of the Lamb?
You betcha!
Therefore, RUN Christian!
Rejoice!
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25)
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AMEN!
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For those of you who might be looking for Abstinence Teaching or Training information the Abstinence Clearinghouse is a good source of information. I have seen Pam Stenzel speak on Abstinence and she is real good.
Looking back over my years I fine my relationship with and Love of God to be my greatest strength in times of temptation and deception. Please, let us hear more preaching about God’s Wisdom and Love on why he called some things sin. Sin damages relationships, that is why he called it sin. He wants us to have proper and good relationships. Jesus died on the cross to repair our relationship with God. Procreation is one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Used properly society will flourish. Used improperly society will self-destruct.
Regardless of raise, approximately eighty percent of our babies aborted are from unwed mothers. Forty-one percent of babies born in the U.S. are from unwed mothers. It is time for true revival.
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One of the things I don’t understand is that many in our culture say that sex given for free is OK while sex given for money is bad. It would appear that God sees sex given for free as worse. See Ex. 16, especially verses 31-36, where God is using an allegory about prostitution to characterize the nation of Israel.
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“This portrays “sex” as a bargaining chip.”
Even as weak an arguement as this is, thats fine. I’d rather a girl not give in for whatever reason.
I dont know of too many guys today who would be able to put up with such a bargain anyway. You’ll quickly weed out the bad ones if commitment in marriage comes before sex. I dont see it as a bargaining chip, when male and female should be pure in the first place.
Once married, I think youd have a more valid point. Women and men shouldnt withold good things from the spouse to manipulate them.
Even good christian boys and girls struggle with staying pure, not even necessarily out of lust either. It’s very difficult to wait, when your already in love, even a 17 year old.
So my advice for dating, and its good rules I’ve done my best to stick with are:
1. Stay in public
2. Stay in well lit areas.
Its in the privacy of darnkess that most kids/adults give in to their hormones.
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That’s good advice Thorn. As an interesting aside, for her senior prom, my granddaughter asked a young man from another shool whose parents insisted they be chaperoned. The arrangement they settled on was unique and sensible. The chaperone they all agreed to was simply a classmate a year older, as a reminder to keep things above board.
In the process, this was all discussed among them and everyone knew wat was expected. An openly good time was had by all. I was impressed. My granddaughter might donw-play this now, but wait until she’s a mother. A good example and lesson I think.
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I am not sure “abstinence” per se’ is the best tactic, since merely telling someone what they ought not do makes them want it all the more.
What young people should be taught is values. They should be given wisdom to see the value in another human being, not as an object of lust to take and devalue.
The Bible speaks of illicit sex as defrauding another. It means obtaining something through fraud or swindling. You are promising something of value, but which is without value. Young men and women are cheating themselves out of something valuable.
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I wonder if all of us would agree that the most significant reason for the moral decline of America is a lack of understanding about values.
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Xion, no, I wouldn’t agree, and I also think your statement is vague. For instance, “values” today doesn’t necessarily mean “virtues”; it means what you, the individual, consider important–your highet “value” is vegetarianism, for instance. And “understanding” doesn’t necessarily translate to action. Also, the ungodly person can’t act righteous, so it takes more than understanding, and today many within the church aren’t acting very virtuous either.
I think we don’t take holiness seriously enough within the church, nor accountability. “If I mess up, God will forgive me. What do you mean we shouldn’t be alone in private together? Who are you to tell me what to do?”
Outside the church, culture no longer frowns on sexual immorality, and the pill and abortion have both made pregnancy optional; the pregnancy that does happen is no longer seen as embarrassing. Also, fatherless homes beget promiscuity in the next generation, and our whole culture (definitely including entertainment) is saturated with sexual license.
Add it all together, and you have sexual chaos.
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Xion, by that reasoning we shouldn’t tell anyone not to do anything.
Abstinence protects virginity every time it is tried. Cheryl makes an excellent point about values because the word means different things to different people, except when it comes to politics. The label of Values Voters was used because the word “moral” sounded too judgmental. Yet, everyone knew what Vallues Voters really meant.
A significant reason for the decline of morality is lack of discipline.
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Not only does abstinence protect virginity every time it’s tried, abstinence is the best form of birth control.
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And, BTW, virginity is not obsolete. That is the other side of this coin that we should remember and encourage young women with.
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The truth is what I once told a guy. You will live. No one has ever died from NOT having sex, but plenty of people have died FROM having sex. I also think a good healthy dose of embarrassment would be good for some of these people. When I got married the lady who owned the bridal shop and had known me since I was 12 tried to talk me into a pale pink wedding dress. It was gorgeous, but I had to explain to her that my father wouldn’t understand a pink wedding dress to be fashionable. He WOULD understand what he thought I would be telling everyone.
Have any of you actually sat down and watched some of the TV programming aimed at our children? Disney Channel Sunday afternoon. The adults were stupid clods and the children/teens had to save the day and show the adults the errors of their ways. THIS is part of what is wrong. There is not respect. I stopped the program and discussed with my child all that was wrong with this show. She rolled her eyes and told me I didn’t understand. I explained oh yes I do more than you know I understand. They aren’t being taught by the “world” to respect authority and if you can’t learn that basic tenet, how can you learn to respect yourself?
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Louise, it’s true that virginity is not obsolete, but also true that it very nearly is, even in the church. It’s also more or less irrelevant to our own responsibility for sexual purity. Maybe it’s helpful if parents let kids be “different” in some ways as children (I don’t care if all the other children are wearing that brand of clothing, you aren’t; yes, you will have a curfew, even if you’re the only one in your class who has one), so that virginity won’t be the very first time they’ll be standing alone.
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My kid tells me all her friends think I am weird because I have to meet the parents before I let her spend the night somewhere. So what’s your point kid? I am weird and I am going to get a lot weirder before you are an adult.
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From Dr. James C. Dobson
“Mankind has known intuitively for at least 50 centuries that indiscriminate sexual activity represents both an individual and a corporate threat to survival. And history bears it out. Anthropologist J.D. Unwin conducted an exhaustive study of the 88 civilizations which have existed in the history of the world. Each culture has reflected a similar life cycle, beginning with a strict code of sexual conduct and ending with the demand for complete ‘freedom’ to express individual passion. Unwin reports that every society which extended sexual permissiveness to its people was soon to perish. There have been no exceptions.”
From Post 74.
Procreation is one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Used properly society will flourish. Used improperly society will self-destruct. Regardless of race, approximately eighty percent of our babies aborted are from unwed mothers. Forty-one percent of babies born in the U.S. are from unwed mothers. It is time for true revival.
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Buddy, the Church can always use revival and I earnestly pray with the Holy Spirit for that, but it doesn’t need revival for individuals to get in there and do what we already know needs to be done to help those unwed mothers and their babies.
One reason for Christians to be the salt of God’s earth is remembering that unbelievers will always be with us to love and protect.
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I think Xion’s point was that if you give them a love for something, they will pursue it.
An example. You dont teach men how to build boats, you instead give them a love for the sea.
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It seems to me that far more important than physical virginity is the purity that we as Christians have in Christ. I do think that people have made too much of the physiological and have failed to recognize that we are all impure on account of our sin and all who have received Christ have been made pure in him. That is not to discount the sinfulness of extra-marital sex. It does damage the heart and soul. But when I searched for my bride, I want someone who was pure through the blood of Christ. That may mean that I forget what lies behind (cf. Phil 3:13-14).
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Joel and Xion,
Thanks for all your good insights and comments.
Thanks to all the good ladies (Louise, Kim, Cheryl D., NJ Lawyer, et al) for your insights as well.
Virginity is NOT obsolete, but it is increasingly rare in a society that no longer values it. It has value in the protection that it provides from the many, many dangers already spoken of here. The young people who thoughtlessly discard that protection start across a minefield that no one can traverse unscathed. Injury is 100% guaranteed.
For some it will be physical and spiritual death. For a very few lucky ones, it will be merely emotional injury and scars that will last a lifetime. The vast majority of people in between those two extremes will also bring various degrees of suffering to themselves and others that will last far, far longer than the short pleasures they purchase with their promiscuity.
Virginity also has great value in that it provides the very best starting point for the development of a successful, healthy, loving, and lasting marriage. That is not to say that it guarantees success in marriage, because there are many more factors involved in the pursuit of that goal. However, the inevitable emotional and physical injuries, already sustained by previous promiscuity, WILL handicap the journey of marriage and make its success less likely, perhaps even destroying the possibility of success altogether.
Therefore, young men and women who thoughtlessly toss their virginity away before marriage lose both its protection and its advantage for marriage. God loves us and wants the best for us. No wonder He is angered when we enter upon this promiscuous path of injury and destruction. He warns us against it in the strongest possible terms. We disrespect both Him and ourselves when we flout those warnings and go our own selfish way.
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