Our present civil cold war
Since the 2000 election, we have understood our country as divided between what we have called red states and blue states, that is, conservative and liberal regions. The division between them is not primarily one of geography as it is of moral and political principles. If this were simply a matter of party affiliation, however, it would be relatively uninteresting in the long run. But the country is becoming increasingly aware that the disagreement is fundamental, that our house is divided against itself to such an extent that it cannot stand without a vigorous reaffirmation and defense of its founding principles.
In a recent column, George Will drew national attention to the liberal establishment’s principled hostility toward our very form of government:
“Today, as it has been for a century, American politics is an argument between two Princetonians—James Madison, Class of 1771, and Woodrow Wilson, Class of 1879. Madison was the most profound thinker among the Founders. Wilson, avatar of ‘progressivism,’ was the first president critical of the nation’s founding. Barack Obama’s Wilsonian agenda reflects its namesake’s rejection of limited government.”
What Wilson began, the Great Depression interrupted, but Franklin Roosevelt took it up again with great energy in the New Deal. Lyndon Johnson carried it forward with the Great Society, and now Barack Obama has raised this war against limited, constitutional government to the level of mortal struggle.
Now we are engaged in a great civil cold war. It is a political war between the advocates of limited and unlimited government, between those who support the Founding and the Constitution as amended and the self-described progressives who, by definition, reject what the Founding Fathers bequeathed to us in favor of what Chief Justice Earl Warren called “evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.”
Will takes his prompt from a new book by William Voegeli, Never Enough: America’s Limitless Welfare State. In the progressive view of politics, there is no limiting principle for government. Writes Voegeli, “Lacking a limiting principle, progressivism cannot say how big the welfare state should be but must always say that it should be bigger than it currently is.” We can see this in President Roosevelt’s 1944 “Economic Bill of Rights” speech, in which he declared the commitment of his government to, among other things, “the right of every family to a decent home; the right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health; the right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment; the right to a good education.” Thus rights become government entitlements that don’t limit government, but instead empower and expand it.
For progressives, the purpose of government is not to protect certain natural rights that in turn limit the government itself. This is the political theory of the Founding and the Constitution. Rather, government’s job is to discover new rights that come to light as we morally evolve, i.e., as we progress.
Our choice is between two very different forms of government. Limited government stands opposite progressive government of unlimited reach. Individual liberty stands opposite federally guaranteed personal security. Our system of checks and balances stands opposite the popularly unaccountable and trans-political bureaucracy. In the Great Civil War, we fought—as Lincoln put it—for “government of the people, by the people, and for the people.” This new struggle is a domestic cold war for that same understanding of freedom. We need to be clear that there is a fundamental difference between these politically divergent ways of life, and that the choice is now clearly before us. Otherwise we will simply slip peacefully into what Alexis de Tocqueville called “soft despotism,” the way a freezing man welcomes the embrace of death like a comforting lover.
A good recent primer on the constitutional way of self-government is Matthew Spalding’s We Still Hold These Truths: Rediscovering Our Principles, Reclaiming Our Future. You will find a deeper examination of the historical and intellectual shift from the focus on natural rights protected by a constitutionally limited government to social entitlements guaranteed by compassionate politicians and enlightened judges in James Caeser’s Nature and History in American Political Development. It’s an eye-opening read.

















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back to top100 Comments to “Our present civil cold war”
Excellent post.
I want to point out that it has been demonstrated that the red state-blue state dichotomy is inaccurate. County by county maps reveal that there are pockets of red and blue in every state, mostly along urban-rural lines.
I also wish to point out that not every amendment to the Constitution is acceptalbe to those who believe in Founding principles. The Sixteenth Amendment should never have been ratified and should be repealed.
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Our Nation must fall before the Anti-Christ will come to power. The reason is the Word of God is clear, all nations will surrender to his control.
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This essay and the books alluded to in it can I pray ignite a renewed examination of the assumptions underlying so much of our govt’s expansion in recent years.
I have in recent years gained a new/deeper appreciation for school teachers (esp the dreaded government teachers) who point their students back to the founding principles. If you clearly and consistently teach the founding ideals ( a big if indeed) then perhaps the students will grow into adults less likely to embrace all the “five year plans and New Deals, wrapped in golden chains” to borrow from CCR.
Hillsdale College is from what I read alone in doing that with their students. If only prominent university alumni could take a greater role in advancing the Founders Idea of limited constitutional govt in their colleges too.
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George Bush missed a great opp to proclaim our Founder’s antipathy to big costly govt and his R party colleagues muzzled themselves and drank the “Medicare expansion” Kool Aid all too eagerly.
Vocal conservatives/tea partiers, where were you when we needed you back then??
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I think D.C. has clarified the rising divide in America rather well. Remember, however, that it is the very well-funded task of the left to cloak most of their intentions and ideology behind carefully crafted talking points. They pretend that they honor the Constitution but such honor is incompatible with their support for unlimited growth of government. They get away with it because most Americans are so easily manipulated by smooth talk and they pay too little attention to action until it directly effects them.
Masses of Americans fail to see through the disingenuous political rhetoric of the left because they have themselves lost their unique grasp of what it means at the core to be an American and thus have lost their gratitude for what was sacrificially passed on to us.
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#1 Kyle
I heartily agree! If the founding fathers saw the 16th amendment get passed, they would have rebelled all over again.
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I agreed with pretty much everything up until the end–because the War Between the States was decidedly not fought to limit government’s overreach, but to expand it. Lincoln’s war was the beginning of the end of constitutional limits on government, which is why he tends not to be respected all that much in the South.
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Posted this in today’s Whirled Views, but it seems more appropriate here.
The Alien in the White House
Citizens are becoming increasingly aware of our administration’s leftist agenda, and they don’t like it….
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Cheryl,
I’m not disputing you about Lincoln’s legacy, but what would his critics in the South have seen as an alternative? Do his critics in the South still see the country divided into two as a positive outcome? Or do they have an idea of some other solution that could’ve worked to keep the country together?
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Great article! Thanks, D.C.!!
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During George Bush’s time weren’t people traveling the country complaining about the need for JOBS (well before the crash)?
Meanwhile those in Congress were backing their PORK by saying it creates jobs. If he didn’t sign, was he putting people out of work?
I don’t think it is right, it’s just how I interpret what I see.
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George Will (as cited by Innes): Barack Obama’s Wilsonian agenda reflects its namesake’s rejection of limited government.
Frank: This is precisely the kind of thing that I harp on here at WMB, time-and-again.
Of course BHO demonstrates a Wilsonian agenda.
But none of the usual conservative suspects — not WMB writers, not George Will, etc. and so forth — were willing to discuss how George Bush’s Wilsonian agenda also reflected a rejection of limited government.
Until we conservatives begin to recognize and deride all messianic Wilsonianism, regardless of the affiliation of the president who’s pushing it at the moment — these kinds of observations amount to nothing but rank partisan favoritism.
And of course, certain of the usual conservative suspects will suggest that, because I point this out, I could be a leftist plant.
I think that conservatives will gain more traction among the American body politic when they begin to fess up for the political sins of their own candidates, instead of pointing out the sins of the opposition party.
But gaining political traction shouldn’t be their primary motive — owning the truth should be.
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Did Obama hire all those CZARS so he could distance himself from what THEY are doing? As if they are doing stuff without his guidance or knowledge?
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This is what happens when you kill the goose that lays golden eggs. You can tax people for just so long. In NJ, the overtaxed are going to other states at an increasing rate. We have the highest property taxes, the highest cost of living, and the households are losing worth at 100 times faster than the rest of you. We finally have a governor who is trying to fix that, and the liberals are going to court to get the State Supremes to force the state to pay money for schools that it doesn’t have. No legislature — just the courts. Go figure. It never stops with the liberals even in the face of bankruptcy.
And when it comes to “evolving standards of decency,” I wonder just what was meant by that: is it decent to murder your own children? I don’t think so. There will either be a revival or we will fall as Pastor Roy suggests. If Jersey is the canary in the mine…..
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Cheryl D.,
Thanks for (7).
The truth needs to be told about “father Abraham.”
If anyone has any doubts about Lincoln’s unconstitutional abuse and amassing of federal power, please take the time to read Thomas DiLorenzo’s heavily footnoted 1998 essay, “The Great Centralizer: Abraham Lincoln and the War between the States”:
Download the free 29-page PDF from the Independent Institute here.
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It isn’t just a president’s view, Frank, it’s the Congress, and quite frankly, it has been the people for the past 30-40 years who have bought into the idea of government should be all powerful. Now some people are waking up, and it will have to be the people who turn this around, because our Congress doesn’t get it and none of our presidents get it. They think we are idiots (see John Kerry’s recent comments). There’s no real difference in parties when it comes to spending money and looking down their noses at the populace.
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You are right MR. SPOKANE, we should discuss what BUSH and other Conservatives have done wrong. And then when Obama’s reign is over then we can discuss what HE has done and why no one ever spoke up while HE was controlling the country.
What I don’t get is why BUSH gets total blame for all that went on during his 8 years, even tho DEMS were in control during MOST of that time. ????
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And why are we discussing BUSH’s PAST.
Is this a leftist slight of hand.
Let’s discuss what BUSH did. WHY?
Because you don’t want us pointing to OBAMA’s agenda?
If OBAMA is so wonderful, why do you want to COMPARE him to BUSH?
Yea, OBAMA is doing or did this, but BUSH…..look what HE did.
OK, AND…..?
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mrs.news2me 06.09.10 AT 2:15 PM
And why are we discussing BUSH’s PAST.
–
Because you are not permitted to talk about Obama past.
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I love it…
Whatever turns out for the GOOD…including if the economy turns around…OBAMAS gets the credit. (Money given away BEFORE PRES. OBAMA is BAD. Money given away AFTER PRES. OBAMA is GOOD.)
Meanwhile whatever is BAD is attributed to Conservatives and particularly to Christians (no…Evangelicals because they are against peoples’ rights).
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mrs.news2me
how this
Obama goes to a Church that teaches hate for over 20 years – an it did not impact his life.
Bush becomes a Christain an the Christian faith had to much impact on Bush life.
Obama was friends with a know terroist Bill Ayers an it is no big deal.
Bush was Oil Man before becoming Pres. an that was evil and harmed our Nation.
Obama travel on speaking tours with the leader of the Nation of Islam an it did not impact his life.
Bush spoke at a Christian College, an that was wrong.
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Ree, we could have been two countries on friendly terms (much like Canada and the U.S.A.), or we could have someday agreed on our own to reunite. Either option would have been better than what happened, most definitely better in the short term and also probably better in the long term. And relations between blacks and whites even today would probably be better had slavery ended on its own rather than at the cost of destroying the South and the whole nation’s liberty, and insisting that the federal government had more authority than the individual states did. It was an ugly era in our nation’s history, and I personally don’t think it’s an accident that Obama admires Lincoln, nor do I think he’s just saying that because presidents are supposed to admire Lincoln–I think he deliberately wants to finish what Lincoln started.
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MRS.NEWS2ME (17): What I don’t get is why BUSH gets total blame for all that went on during his 8 years
Frank: Calm down.
I’m not “totally blaming [Bush] for all that went on during his 8 years.”
I am pointing out that Bush also had a Wilsonian (messianic/big government) political agenda, and the vast majority of my fellow evangelical conservatives didn’t utter a peep about it.
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Cheryl D. – I must respectful disagree with you on your views on Lincoln and the Civil War.
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Bush’s fault is that he believed he could work with Dem.
I wish he would have veto more spending bills and he was wrong on the boarders.
He was right on the Wars, pro-life. He was right on the tax’s cuts.
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Ree, one more note: People always ask “what would have happened” if secession had succeeded, but that isn’t the relevant question. The relevant question was whether it was legal for them to secede, and the consensus of the day was that it was. (The Declaration of Independence had left such things open!) If it was legal, “what would have happened” is a secondary question.
Here’s a comparison: I think my housemate and I are both better off living together than separately. But legally, if she decides to move out, as long as she gives the thirty days notice we both agreed to, I cannot stop her from leaving. I could try to convince her, lower her rent, add more perks, etc., but I can’t stop her. She is legally allowed to move out.
There were three possible outcomes from Southern secession as it stood: Both sides could have been happier as two separate nations, in which case they’d stay separate. Both sides could have realized they needed each other, either as strong allies or as being part of the same nation, in which case they’d have figured out how to come together. Or one nation could have been happy with the split and one not (which is what happened), in which case the proper solution would have been finding out if it was possible to come back together in a way that made both nations happy.
But going to war to force capitulation was neither a legal nor a moral option–and it is really, really debatable whether such a choice had a happy ending. The ONE good thing was that the slaves were freed. But our nation was torn apart, much of our freedom destroyed, the South left in ruins, the newly freed slaves left homeless and jobless and destitute. And millions were killed, millions more injured or raped or left homeless and destitute themselves. And the South left as an unwilling part of a nation they no longer trusted. And this is a “happy ending”? Methinks the other possible endings were much better ones. But the war was illegal and immoral either way.
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MRS.NEWS2ME (17): What I don’t get is why BUSH gets total blame for all that went on during his 8 years, even tho DEMS were in control during MOST of that time. ????
Frank: Huh?
President Bush had a Republican majority in the legislature for most of his presidency:
PASTOR ROY (24): I must respectful disagree with you on your views on Lincoln and the Civil War.
Frank: I respectfully suggest you to read the DiLorenzo essay I linked to at (15):
http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_03_2_dilorenzo.pdf
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Cheryl D. (26): Thanks for the useful illustration.
But we should also remember:
America’s War for Independence was a also war for secession.
How is it that so many Americans who applaud the secessionists of 1776 condemn the secessionists of 1861?
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MRS.NEWS2ME:
BTW, just because I’ve criticized GWB, you don’t think I’m a fan of BHO, do you?!
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MRS.NEWS2ME (18): And why are we discussing BUSH’s PAST.
Is this a leftist slight of hand.
Frank: I say again:
“Until we conservatives begin to recognize and deride all messianic Wilsonianism, regardless of the affiliation of the president who’s pushing it at the moment — these kinds of observations [e.g., by Innes and Will] amount to nothing but rank partisan favoritism.”
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I’m a Northerner born and bred, but I’m ready to give Cali and the NE to the progressive liberals and let them run their new “country” into the ground all they want. The rest of us SANE people, who love our country and our freedom will take the rest of the states and return it to what the Founders meant it to be.
And maybe that’s what it’ll take to end the scourge of abortion, the way it took the Civil War to end slavery. Yes, it took the War and Abraham Lincoln’s incredible courage to finally do what the South refused to do.
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Were the secessionsts traitors?
Why did the Southern Baptist Convention wait until 1995 to renounce its Civil War era pro-slavery stance?
…just asking questions…
How could secession be the appropriate move rather than end the barbaric practice of slavery?
States’ Rights – Yes, states’ rights to decide to allow people to enslave other people.
The South left in ruins. Yes, but they essentially did it to themselves.
That war was inevitable.
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Thanks, Cheryl.
As a native New Englander and a California transplant, I’d never even heard Lincoln seriously criticized until the past year or two. Interesting.
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The founding fathers should have dealt with slavery from the beginning, but with the British breathing down their necks they took an unfortunate shortcut thaat we are all still paying for.
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Like Cactigal, I had never heard Lincoln criticized until coming here. You Southern folk sure hold a grudge.
Only kidding. It’s interesting to think about it from the other side.
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Like REE — I’m sorry. It was Cactigal who wants to feed me to the wolves here in Jersey.
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Frank in Spokane wrote: “…Bush also had a Wilsonian (messianic/big government) political agenda, and the vast majority of my fellow evangelical conservatives didn’t utter a peep about it.”
Nonsense. I don’t know about Frank’s fellow evangelical conservatives but I do know that my fellow evangelical conservatives shouted long and hard about it. But they did tend to be respectful and balanced in their dissent and they kept in mind that the Democrat congress had a lot to do with the Wilsonian trends. Sometimes support for Bush among conservatives was more a realistic awareness of the absolute fact that the only other competition that was organized enough to beat Bush was much much much much worse (a fact proven over the last two years). Evangelical conservatives also care about moral issues too and on this score, President Bush did rather well.
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I have to work and can’t spend time on here debating each and every point, but much of this is a gross oversimplification of a very complex war.
It also melds at least two different issues, in just the way that elementary school history about the war did. (Time for some of you to do a little more reading!) This is the elementary school summary: Slavery was bad, and ending it was good, so therefore the way it was ended was also good, by definition.
Not so. Keeping the South in the nation by war was still illegal. And the war wasn’t begun in order to end slavery anyway; it was done in order to keep the nation together, according to Lincoln. That means its basic purpose was wrong, whatever its results might have been.
Separate the issues, please. Yes, slavery needed to be abolished (and was well on its way to ending), but that is a totally separate issue from “Was it legal to forcibly retain the South after they had begun a new nation?” I mean, I’m sure England could have found things they didn’t like about our new nation, too. “Well, they aren’t treating the Indians right, so therefore this Declaration of Independence is null and void.” This old thing of “the South deserved to be destroyed, so there” is foolishness. We all deserve destruction, and by the grace of God we don’t always get it. But to think that Lincoln could mete out destruction because of the sins of the South is theologically very problematic. And to think he could force a new nation to stay in the U.S.A. in spite of our own history with England, and in spite of our own laws allowing such, is constitutionally hugely troubling.
But now, I really must get to work!
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Well, I live in Oregon, so no one really thinks too much about the Civil War since, although we were a state and we were technically Union, we didn’t really have anything to do with anything, as far as I know.
(Actually, I think the only time Oregon the place, as opposed to Oregonians serving in the army, was ever almost involved in a war was when some Japanese ships sailed sort of close to our coast once in WWII.)
However, I actually came to the independent conclusion sometime in middle or high school that the South was legally right in the Civil War, and the North wrong, and that the North’s victory was a great leap forward for centralized government. (I say independent because none of my teachers ever espoused such a view.) And I’ve never even been to the Deep South, so it’s not just them saying this.
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KBells,
The Founding Fathers strongly watned to prevent slavery but they faced the undeniable fact that the southern states would not have tolerated that and they could have never accomplished the union of the states in their lifetime. Politics is the art of compromise and through it, they accomplished their mission to establish the United States of America.
Had they stood against slavery at all cost, the cost would have been–no united nation. That was clear. Yet, the principles they laid down in accomplishing their mission did indeed plant the seeds that would eventually abolish slavery. In their case (while I think slavery is profoundly immoral), they chose the better alternative of the ONLY ones before them. We now have union without slavery. Unbending idealists could never have accomplished that in my view.
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I am trying to remember Ken Burns’ Civil War program, and I don’t think I got this feeling from that program, so I guess he agreed with Lincoln. I don’t think he really discussed the legality of the secession.
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Agreed KBells.
PaulR – those statements are from a perspective of “what should the North have done”, not to absolve the South for choosing to leave the union. They ought not to have separated over slavery – but I don’t think that was really the main issue in the end.
Whatever the motives for leaving the union, the North had no right to force the South to remain within the union (legally or ethically). Slavery gives the North the “moral highground” – because we all agree slavery is a violation of the founding principles as well – individual freedom. However, it is ironic that with the end of slavery we began the move to where we are now – with no limiting principle on the size and scope of government. It was good that slavery was abolished – but it should have happened without fighting a war to keep states “loyal” to Washington DC.
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I do have to wonder what would have happened regarding slavery had the South seceded. As I understand, the institution of slavery was on its way out until the invention of the cotton gin, whereupon it exploded out again. So I’m not sure if it would have peacefully died out in the South, at least not at all quickly. We might have been dealing with actual black slavery within the last generation or even now.
Then there’s runaway slaves. The North agreed to return them to the South as a placating gesture, but if the South had seceded, there would be no need to continue to do so. With two separate countries, there would really have been somewhere for slaves to run to. The South may have eventually gone to war with the North over that anyway, as their economy was threatened by a more powerful neighbor that happened to hate slavery and their way of life.
And there’s the West. That was apparently a huge deal with each new territory/state: would it be slave holding or free? How would they have dealt with two separate countries trying to expand into the same place? Historical precedent is that they would have fought over it.
Now mind you, I probably have no idea what I’m talking about, but there’s my musings on the subject.
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Of course, it’s rather moot, as the ends don’t justify the means, so although the North may have been right about slavery, the South was legally and morally right about secession, and it should have been allowed regardless of hypotheticals.
However, I might just fear for my life if I were to ever discuss the subject with a black person.
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Frank – I agree. It’s difficult to be principled since both parties are generally “big gov” and on so many other issues the R’s get principles right (and pay much better lip-service to limited gov)… well, we overlook the expansions when they come along, thinking they are just an anomoly. We do need to hold Rep’s to task for their progressive actions as well.
One last point – R’s took the “less resistence” path to serve limited government: instead of slowing spending, they went for less taxes (because nobody likes taxes), reasoning that lower taxes would mean lower spending – and thereby limiting what the government could do. The problem, as we see now, is defecit spending – we’ll borrow to keep spending and kick the problem of how to pay for it down the road a bit.
Both taxes and spending are symptoms of the “vision of government” problem described in this article.
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Cheryl,
If secession had succeeded, it would have remained. What the Confedercy fought so hard and died in great numbers to retain, they would not have given up to politicians or negotiations. Reasonable people can take different sides, but I don’t think it is reasonable to speculate that they would have come back together under any circumstances had the secession stood. But that’s speculation on my part too. Speculating is why history can be fun as well as instructive.
You used the phrase, “…going to war to force capitulation…” Linclon considered the motive as retaining nationhood or union. I am of the view that a divded nation was a tragic fate. We could never have been the force for good in the world that we have been in the generations to follow, had we become two.
Robert E. Lee was exceptional. He was open to restoring a union, though political compromises. He opposed slavery and wanted it to gradually be abolished. But in the middle of the war, he actually suggested that the South itself free slaves (and let them serve as soldiers) as a means to returning to talks instead of carrying on the fighting. He wanted to call the “bluff” that the North was fighting to abolish slavery. Lee was a great fighter and a bold general but that was strategy. He actually wanted the politicians to do more to seek peace. But in the South, they were hopelessly intransigent! Lee was sorely disappointed with the Confederate congress. They would have none of the suggestion that union or peace could be restored with any sort of compromise.
The historical legacy of unique greatness applied to both Lee and Lincoln has real merit in my mind on both counts, though they were on different sides.
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Just as a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then, so does a rank pagan occasionally utter the moral truth:
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#1: This is true. Oregon, for example, is a blue state, but the large majority of our counties are red, and about the entire rural population is Republican. We are simply outvoted by Portland and Eugene, for whatever reason.
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As usual, Frank is right.
We cannot decry big government when a Democrat is in the White House and accept it (or even applaud it) when a Republican is.
Both parties have accepted big government as the solution to all problems–just in different degrees. The Democrats are socialists and the the Republicans are lite socialists.
That’s why I am a Libertarian.
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If in your study of the Civil War, or the War Between the States, you need bad guys–then consider the stubborn Confederate congress and to some degree, Jefferson Davis. Even Bobby Lee could agree wtih me on this (except it should be averred that Lee did show nothing but respect for Davis in all his communications). But when Lee faced the realities of loss and ended the war by surrendering to Grant, Davis was not ready to quit. He wanted the fighting to go on and he tried to escape (to Texas, if I recall correctly) to find a way to carry it on from there. He was captured, however.
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The leadership of the old South was too much like the leadership of the Palestinians today who always prefer war to any serious political progress toward peace and to any sort of compromsie. That said, the differences between those groups are considerable and profound. The only parallel is the unwillingness to brook any compromise for the sake of peace or progress.
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TJS CATLOVER (44): I do have to wonder what would have happened regarding slavery had the South seceded.
Frank: It would have been abolished by moral (i.e., religious and political — and peaceful) means — just as it was in every other western nation where it was found. America is the only nation with the dubious distinction of ending slavery after waging a civil war. (In which 600,000 people died.)
JOEL MARK (47): If secession had succeeded, [slavery] would have remained. What the Confedercy fought so hard and died in great numbers to retain, they would not have given up to politicians or negotiations.
Frank: 1. “[T]he Confedercy fought so hard and died in great numbers to retain” the principle of states’ rights, not chattel slavery. Most southerners didn’t even own slaves — they just resented being dictated to by a national capitol that favored the North at the expense of the South.
2. In addition to the moral (i.e., religious and political) means mentioned above, slavery would have succumbed due to technological advancement. I.e., the development of agricultural machinery — superior to slavery in every way — would simply have made slavery economically untenable.
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And, yes, of course, we would not have been able to do what we did in WWII.
But I think all this hypothetical stuff is nonsense. We can’t change history, and this is what happened. All we can do is say the the North was wrong. It turned out better this way for black people, and I suppose the entire world, (due to WWII), but God does say He will work bad things for the good.
The North was still wrong.
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Kyle wrote; “We cannot decry big government when a Democrat is in the White House and accept it (or even applaud it) when a Republican is.”
That’s inaccurate. It’s also too simplistic. As I saw it, most conservatives decried big government under both Bush and Obama. And reason calls for three times more outrage with Obama than with Bush.
What planet are some of you living on, pretending that Bush got a free pass on his spending from conservatives? But reasonable Republicans / conservatives also knew that there was a bigger picture. Bush can be commended for excellent Supreme Court picts (Constitutionalists), a healthy tax cut that helped the economy, keeping unemployment low for 6 years, and doing well at keeping the US safe from jihadist terrorism and on many other scores. I am especially grateful for that. But he must be criticized for his spending and bail out policies. That was costly.
And I was critical of the fact that he did not veto anything during his first term. He did in his second term, but the Democrats had too much control by then.
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KYLE A (50): As usual, Frank is right.
Frank: You exaggerate, sir …
Why, I’m wrong quite often!
KYLE A (50): We cannot decry big government when a Democrat is in the White House and accept it (or even applaud it) when a Republican is.
Both parties have accepted big government as the solution to all problems …
Frank: Allow me to suggest a modification to your statement:
Democrats are generally big-government when it comes to domestic policy (i.e., welfare and redistribution of wealth).
Republicans are generally big-government when it comes to foreign policy (i.e., warfare and maintaining America’s massive global footprint).
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Ron Paul chastises at GOP conference: Conservatives ‘like the empire’
by Andrew McLemore
April 10, 2010
Texas Rep. Ron Paul proved once again Saturday that his politics continue to divide the Republican Party.
He was met with both disapproval and applause during the Southern Republican Leadership Conference for describing conservatives as hypocritical when they call for a return to Constitutional values while supporting foreign wars.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” ~ Ron Paul
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The global American military presence is fundamentally incompatible with small government — and thus, with liberty at home.
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Frank, the Confedercy fought so hard and died in great numbers to retain slavery AND the principle of states’ rights. The main financiers in the South were all for keeping slavery and these motives were well mixed in many hearts and minds in the South. Your point at #53 Frank, is based on a false alternative.
But I do agree that in time, slavery would probably have been abolished by moral, religious and political means. But secession could still have remained. However, when I wrote above that scession would have remained, I should say that I meant for that generation. Who knows what can happen as generations go by. But even if, hypothetically, slavery could have been abolished without war, the point still stands that secession could have remianed with both nations having no legalized slavery.
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Like Obama, Ron Paul can be pretty good with words. The problem with Obama is that he is twisting and disingenuous. The problem with Ron Paul is that he means it but is not realistic about how to organize to get enough people on his side to get his views implemented in the real world of politics. Also Paul too often resorts to angry rhetoric when actions would be better, in my humble opinion. But in both cases, they usually end up just being words and we end up with one-party-rule and HUGE government as a national policy.
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I do have to credit Ron Paul and son, however, for working with Republicans and the Republican Party more in recent times than they did in the past. Credit also goes to the Republican party for their general acceptance of them–as in the recent election of Ron Paul’s son.
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#59 – Standing up to jihadist global terrorism is fundamentally compatible with small government conservatism and pro-American patriotism and thus with liberty at home.
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The Civil War itself, as I see it was indeed God’s punishment for slavery in this nation. It was the bloodiest war America fought, with 622,000 military casualties, and countless more civilian from stray fire to the destruction of farmland, infrastructure, and industry. Food shortages in the South no doubt killed many.
The fact remains though that a civil war was inevitable, even if the North let the South go, the issue of slaves running to the North would have lead to more conflict, as the North would have had no reason to send them back. Also there would have been fighting over the settling of the West.
Slavery would have continued for a long time if not for the Civil War. Though only the gentry aristocrats had slaves on their plantations, there was little slowing slavery in the South, and if secession succeeded, slavery would have grown with the industrialization of the South. Frank, this is the first time I have said this but you are definitely wrong in #53. If you do not believe me, look in the modern industrialized world, where the slave trade is even more prevalent than ever in history. From China to Indonesia to, yes, even the United States, slavery is on the rise. Not just sex slavery but labor slavery as well.
The international slave trade would have begun again, as the US laws banning the purchase of slaves from Africa would have no longer applied, and when industrialization would have rose in the South, the international slave trade, which men like William Wilberforce and his American counterparts fought against, would have been reborn.
The idea of the North and South getting along after secession is ridiculous, again because of the runaway slave issue and more so the expansion in the West. There would have been a war inevitably.
The state’s rights that were fought over were:
1. The right of the States to succeed
2. The right of the States to determine the value of a human being
3. The right of the States to deny liberty to people based on their State-perceived value.
Thought the 1st issue was the main reason the Confederates fought and died for, the states left the Union because Abraham Lincoln was elected, and they feared the inevitable legislation for the end of slavery. Slavery drew the boundaries and it was the reason for secession.
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Now on the issue of power transitioned from the states to the federal government, the only rights taken from the states were the three rights I previously listed, the right to secede, to determine the value of a human being, and to deny them liberty as the State desires.
The punishing of the South was during the Reconstruction, where the States were stripped of their power and the Federal government was positioned to gain it and grow. That was not because of Lincoln, as he was both dead and was going to let the South recover normally.
However with Lincoln gone, the Republican Congress went on a spree with increasing federal power. If you wish to place the blame for the expansion of federal government, put it on the ones who eradicated states’ rights, the Reconstruction Republican Congress.
I find it ironic that it was a Republican Congress who established the trend of increasing the federal gov’t’s size and power, and now many hope a Republican Congress will limit the growth Obama seeks.
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the South was legally and morally right about secession, and it should have been allowed regardless of hypotheticals.
I disagree. Unilateral secession is not permissible under the Constitution.
The Constitution established a unified nation, not a compact of sovereign states. In this manner, it fundamentally differed from the Articles of Confederation. The Articles had been a compact of the states. The Constitution, on the other hand, begins with “We the People.” It was the people, not the states, who formed the Union.
Patrick Henry opposed ratification for this very reason: “The fate … of America may depend on this. … Have they made a proposal of a compact between the states? If they had, this would be a confederation. It is otherwise most clearly a consolidated government. The question turns, sir, on that poor little thing — the expression, We, the people, instead of the states, of America.”
Read this.
But exactly how were these states united? Did a state that said yes in the 1780’s retain the right to unilaterally say no later on, and thereby secede? If not, why not?
Once again, it was in New York that the answer emerged most emphatically. At the outset of the Poughkeepsie convention, anti-Federalists held a strong majority. The tide turned when word arrived that New Hampshire and Virginia had said yes to the Constitution, at which point anti-Federalists proposed a compromise: they would vote to ratify, but if the new federal government failed to embrace various reforms that they favored, “there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years.”
At the risk of alienating swing voters and losing on the ultimate ratification vote, Federalists emphatically opposed the compromise. In doing so, they made clear to everyone — in New York and in the 12 other states where people were following the New York contest with interest — that the Constitution did not permit unilateral state secession. Alexander Hamilton read aloud a letter at the Poughkeepsie convention that he had received from James Madison stating that “the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever.” Hamilton and John Jay then added their own words, which the New York press promptly reprinted: “a reservation of a right to withdraw” was “inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification.”
The Declaration of Independence does not apply. The Founders were exercising the natural right of revolution. But that can only be justified by oppression. The South was not being oppressed, nor were any of its Constitutional rights being violated. They simply seceded because they could not abide an antislavery president.
As President, Lincoln had the responsibility to defend the Union and enforce the laws of the land.
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And BTW, in case anyone is wondering, Bush’s messianic militarist pretensions are precisely the kind of Wilsonianism of which I accuse him:
Yup. “America: called by God to rid the world of evil.”
Wilsonianism.
Nationalist messianism.
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I enjoy these Civil War threads. I think the southern men saw the Federal union as a marriage or business partnership. Folks regularly dissolve both of those down at the court house.
I tend to believe technological advancemt (ie the invention of mechanized ag vehicles, harvesters, planters) would have done in slavery. Why feed 30 or so slaves when you can have one employee run the harvester/cotton picker.
But I also cannot say what would have been done with the now un-needed slaves. Send them west? Send them north? Confine them to some type of reservation? All sounds like fodder for a Harry Turtedove “alternative history” novel.
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The prevention of unilateral secession by the Supremacy Clause was brought up in the North Carolina Ratification Debate as a reason for ratification.
During the North Carolina Ratification Debates, Gov. Samuel Johnston made the following observation concerning the Supremacy Clause on 29 July 1788:
“The Constitution must be the supreme law of the land; otherwise, it would be in the power of any one state to counteract the other states, and withdraw itself from the Union. The laws made in pursuance thereof by Congress ought to be the supreme law of the land; otherwise, any one state might repeal the laws of the Union at large. Without this clause, the whole Constitution would be a piece of blank paper.” [_Elliot's Debates,_ Vol IV, pp. 187-188]
He was not contradicted.
Here’s what the Supreme Court said prior to 1860:
“The constitution, when thus adopted, was of complete obligation, and bound the state sovereignties.” [17 U.S. 316, 404]
“The people made the constitution, and the people can unmake it. It is the creature of their will, and lives only by their will. But this supreme and irresistible power to make or to unmake, resides only in the whole body of the people; not in any sub-division of them. The attempt of any of the parts to exercise it is usurpation, and ought to be repelled by those to whom the people have delegated their power of repelling it.” [19 US 264, 389]
Those two were written by Chief Justice John Marshall, a member of the Virginia Ratification Convention.
As to the theory behind secession, James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, countered it:
“Applying a like view of the subject to the case of the U. S. it results, that the compact being among individuals as imbodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself. The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect. It will hardly be contended that there is anything in the terms or nature of the compact, authorizing a party to dissolve it at pleasure.” [James Madison to Nicholas Trist, 15 Feb 1830]
“The essential difference between a free Government and Governments not free, is that the former is founded in compact, the parties to which are mutually and equally bound by it. Neither of them therefore can have a greater right to break off from the bargain, than the other or others have to hold them to it. And certainly there is nothing in the Virginia resolutions of -98, adverse to this principle, which is that of common sense and common justice. The fallacy which draws a different conclusion from them lies in confounding a SINGLE [emphasis in original] party, with the PARTIES [emphasis in original] to the Constitutional compact of the United States. The latter having made the compact may do what they will with it. The former as one only of the parties, owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created. In the Virginia Resolutions and Report the PLURAL [emphasis in original] number, STATES [emphasis in original], is in EVERY [emphasis in original] instance used where reference is made to the authority which presided over the Government. As I am now known to have drawn those documents, I may say as I do with a distinct recollection, that the distinction was intentional. It was in fact required by the course of reasoning employed on the occasion. The Kentucky resolutions being less guarded have been more easily perverted. The pretext for the liberty taken with those of Virginia is the word RESPECTIVE [emphasis in original], prefixed to the ‘rights’ &c to be secured within the States. Could the abuse of the expression have been foreseen or suspected, the form of it would doubtless have been varied. But what can be more consistent with common sense, than that all having the same rights &c, should united in contending for the security of them to each.
“It is remarkable how closely the nullifiers who make the name of Mr. Jefferson the pedestal for their colossal heresy, shut their eyes and lips, whenever his authority is ever so clearly and emphatically against them. You have noticed what he says in his letters to Monroe & Carrington Pages 43 & 203, Vol. 2, with respect to the powers of the old Congress to coerce delinquent States, and his reasons for preferring for the purpose a naval to a military force; and moreover that it was not necessary to find a right to coerce in the Federal Articles, that being inherent in the nature of a compact. It is high time that the claim to secede at will should be put down by the public opinion; and I shall be glad to see the task commenced by one who understands the subject.” [James Madison to Nicholas Trist, 23 Dec 1832]
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Well, the new cold war here seems to have made us as intractable as North and South. Can we really understand all the ins and outs of the history of the Civil War? I can’t understand people in my own time.
NJLawyer – move here to AZ where the taxes are getting as high as the temps. You’d think we’d learn from NJ….But at least you’d be in our new Confederate Conservative Union
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Lincoln was a pragmatist. It wasnt until the Union cause came to be identified with a “crusade” to abolish slavery that the Europeans tilted to the Federals and not the Confederates.
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(The above post was copied and pasted from another forum – it is not my own research).
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Cactigal, read your history. Arizona was in fact a Confederate territory!!
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Frankly, looking back at the Civil War, though the North acted unconstitutionally in the war by fighting to preserve the Union, they were in the right morally because the South had left out of the fear of losing slavery, not out of the fear of losing their states’ rights.
The Constitution is not the Bible, and if God says one thing and it says another, I will go with what God says. What is legal or Constitutional is not necessarily right, just like how what is illegal or unconstitutional is not necessarily wrong. (This is a general statement, not necessarily dealing with the issue of the Civil War)
Also the fact of the matter is that God does not let the unjust go unpunished, individually people may pay the price for their wrongdoing in this life or in the next. But throughout history there are many nations that have fallen because of the evil and sin in their society. The Bible even records a few. America was the last Western country to end slavery, and much of early America was built on slavery, and we did not try to end it as a nation as a whole. It is important to recognize the spiritual side of life and it s consequences, good and bad.
America became the most powerful and wealthy country in the World, and much of it was because of God’s blessing that came from both the stance we took in WWII and the support of Israel when it was attacked by its neighbors. But it will not last forever, when you look at the 50,000,000 children killed through abortion, the coups in South and Central America (cause by America out of fear from McCarthyism) that lead to much death and evil (for example the genocides in Guatemala), and how the country is rejecting God as a whole. Just looking at the book of Judges, God gives nations time to repent, but He cannot allow a nation that He has blessed to go on in sin without Him withdrawing His blessing and protection.
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ROM116 (64): … you are definitely wrong in #53. If you do not believe me, look in the modern industrialized world, where the slave trade is even more prevalent than ever in history. From China to Indonesia to, yes, even the United States, slavery is on the rise.
Frank: I’m no expert in logic and logical fallacies, but I think what you just did was “equivocate” — you applied the same word to two different meanings. (This probably wasn’t your intention, but we should endeavor to think and argue carefully.)
The slavery that exists in the world today is largely illegal, operating only in the black market. Or it is subjects (the Chinese or Cubans) who are essentially held captive by their government.
It is most assuredly not the globally-practiced, above-board, respectable and internationally-lawful slavery of the 1800’s and prior.
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Matt Y., you have encouraged me to read up on the pre-1860 Supreme Court rulings related to States’ arguing for nullification and secession.
I just want to point out though that secession would be Constitutional if not for judicial review, as no where in the Constitution does it say a State cannot succeed, and thus the 10th Amendment would give them that right.
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I’m a WA State transplant…but AZ as a territory was never accepted into the CSA. My point is those of us fed up with big govt. and liberal destruction need to form our own new union and try again to run things the way the Founders intended.
But I’m just blowing steam…we’re citizens of heaven and can only do so much here with our earthly government. The US needs people who acknowledge Christ as Savior, as de Tocqueville noted.
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#75
Slavery is lawful in much of the world today, in Middle and South East Asia. It has grown with industrialism. Someone has to work in the sweatshops, and the local governments in those region either approve (through Sharia law or their own law) or look the other way.
Also slavery, as in the ownership of a human being, does happen in China, where it is technically illegal.
Finally, the slavery of the 1800’s was not respectable.
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Also today slavery is much more economically feasible than it was in the South 150 years ago. The average slave is now 40 bucks, when they used to cost a few thousand (1860) dollars.
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[T]he great purpose of our great land … is to rid this world of evil and terror.
~ George W. Bush, November 11, 2001
Wilsonianism.
Nationalist messianism
—
Is a bad thing Frank?
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Frank why is it when it comes to Military Action, you think the worst of it?
Why is it when it comes to Bush, you think the worst of him?
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I am trying to get an understand of where you are coming from Frank.
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Pastor Roy, from my perspective and in truth Bush was wrong when he said that the great purpose of this country was to eradicate evil. It is not, and the only one who can end evil is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In that statement Bush raised the US to God’s level. Frank is right in calling it nationalist messianism. The United States is not the Messiah, Jesus, Yeshua, is. And it is not good if the U.S attempts to take His place.
The great purpose of America is to protect individual freedom and liberty, that was the great purpose we were founded on, not to eliminate evil. Governments that try to eliminate evil become evil and totalitarian. In history there are the absolute monarchies that rose out of the Enlightenment, the fusing of Christianity and the Roman Empire that lead to the Medieval Catholic Church, and for a modern day example look at Singapore, the one nation that has less individual liberty than any other on earth.
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Rom116: Since there is no right to secede (without having been oppressed, in which case it would fall under the right of revolution), the 10th Amendment does not give the States the power to secede. The 10th Amendment protects rights; the ability to leave the Union at a whim is not a right.
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I enjoy these threads that touch on the Civil War too.
My own view: The best man (Lee) lost, but the right side won.
How’s that for simplistic?
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Rom116, I will agree with you that the Civil War was God’s judgment on the Founders and the Nation for compromising on slavery in the first place. I will agree with you that the Southern states had the right to secede, and if a state wanted to do it today and the people voted for it, I wouldn’t fight them. But I will not agree with you that the states have the right to determine the value of a human being.
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#86 NJLawyer
The states did have the right to determine the value of a human being, and that was something the South had fought for. I never stated that I supported their fight to defend that “right” nor did I state that I support their “right” to secede.
#84 Matt
As I tried to state before thank God for judicial review, since the states were no where denied the ability to secede.
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#73 Sawgunner
“Cactigal, read your history. Arizona was in fact a Confederate territory!!”
I think there was a Battle of Picacho Peak that the South lost. Arizona was a Union Territory.
Oh, by the way, as I remember it there were 5 pro-Union guys and 7 pro-Confederates in that battle.
Picacho Pek State Park is just west of Phoenix on I-10.
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Picacho Peak State Park is indeed off of I-10, but it is SE of Phoenix, halfway to Tucson. I’ve driven by it numerous times.
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ROM116 (78): Slavery is lawful in much of the world today, in Middle and South East Asia.
Frank: I admit I don’t have data for this, but I strongly suspect that, if one were to compare the civilized world of, say, the 16th-19th centuries, to the civilized world of today, the percentages of those two “civilized” portions of the world where chattel slavery — ownership of human beings — is/was practiced is lower today than it was then.
Of course, I could be wrong, and welcome any info that either supports or contradicts my suspicions.
ROM116 (78): It has grown with industrialism. Someone has to work in the sweatshops, and the local governments in those region either approve (through Sharia law or their own law) or look the other way.
Frank: You’re equivocating again. 21st century “sweatshop slavery” isn’t the same thing as 16th-19th century chattel slavery.
ROM116 (78): Also slavery, as in the ownership of a human being, does happen in China, where it is technically illegal.
Could be. Do you have any info/links on that?
And if that is the case in China today, would that be any different than the China of, say, 200 years ago?
ROM116 (78): Finally, the slavery of the 1800’s was not respectable.
Frank: I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear with that statement, and thus you’ve made the same (understandable) error in interpreting it that NJLawyer did re. your statement that the states had the “right” to determine the value of a human being.
IOW, put the word “respectable” in quotes — it was socially “respectable” during the 16th-19th centuries, because it was the social norm. But of course, with the benefit of over 100 years of hindsight, we understand (and agree) today that chattel slavery is not at all respectable (i.e., moral).
(Sorry if this comes across as a bit jumbled … I just woke up and have to head to work, but I wanted to try and capture these thoughts ASAP … )
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It is amazing how some who have not read the diaries of the times attempt to describe the times.
I highly recommend the diaries of Robert E. Lee. Robert E. Lee was a far greater statesman than Lincoln ever thought of becoming.
And any in depth study of the War of Northern Aggression will show beyond a shadow of a doubt that the war was not about slavery. When people say that it was about slavery I can only sigh and feel sorry for how stupid our system of education has become.
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montyfisherwoof (91): It is amazing how some who have not read the diaries of the times attempt to describe the times.
I highly recommend the diaries of Robert E. Lee.
Frank: Here is another primary source which few people know about (portions of which are audio recordings):
#90 Frank
Many in sweatshops are chattel slaves, not just wage slaves. I got my stats on human slavery from a National Geographic article between one to two years ago.
Also define “civilized,” because in the 16th century the Chinese were far more “civilized” than Europe at the time. They actually bathed on a regular basis.
#91 Monty
The war was about secession, but the secession of the Southern states was done out of the fear of losing their slaves. Check the history and the reasoning behind the secession. Slavery caused the war, it became a war over secession, but slavery caused the war.
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Teddy Roosevelt said ,”Speak softly and carry a big stick.”
Obama “Slick Barry” is showing that he has a loud voice and the smallest stick around.
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Plus I have read much on the Civil War, ever since the 4th grade when I read the Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era by James McPherson.
And Monty, to believe that slavery and the war were mutually exclusive is beyond imbecility. That is a very poor and excluding read of history.
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Montyfisherwoof,
Indeed, there are problems with our system of education, but the point you used to illustrate it (people claiming that the Civil War was about slavery) is one upon which reasonable and educated people can disagree. The “stupid” option would be to say that the Civil War was not at all about slavery. But reasonable people can discuss the EXTENT to which it was about slavery and the various roles that slavery played in the conflict. Slavery was a huge issue and it was very pertinent to the different reasons that BOTH sides were fighting in that war. The War Between the States was indeed not ENTIRELY about slavery, but it was certainly about slavery to a sigificant extent.
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George Will’s article is stellar.
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PASTOR ROY (81) & (82): Frank why is it when it comes to Military Action, you think the worst of it?
Why is it when it comes to Bush, you think the worst of him?
I am trying to get an understand of where you are coming from Frank.
FRANK: And thank you, sincerely, for asking. I hope to reply tomorrow morning.
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Nothing in the Constitution limits the size or scope of government. Instead, the constitution empowers government to execute the will of the people. The Constitution does divide the roles of government among the branches, but the checks and balances impose no limit on size, taxes, spending, or determinations of the general welfare. If conservatives want the Constitution to limit the size and scope of government, they’ll have to repeal and amend.
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Excellent article!
Our country has bought into the subtle shift from living a responsible life and accepting the just rewards of that life, to the Santa Claus mentality of the progressives. But, of course, even that has been corrupted to teach whether “naughty” or “nice”, all deserve everything the Santa can conceive of to hand out from the bottomless taxpayer pit.
The people, though, have only themselves to blame as massive self-indulgence has introduced indifference into the public’s awareness of any reality at all in politics and national and international events.
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