The Tea Party according to Jim Wallis
The Tea Party movement enrages and mystifies the political left in this country, from the president on down. The evangelical left is no different, and Jim Wallis gave voice to that frustration in his Huffington Post article “How Christian Is Tea Party Libertarianism?”
Wallis is a man of profound influence among a growing number of evangelicals who identify themselves on the political left. He has written 10 books, including The Soul of Politics, and Lisa Sharon Harper of New York Faith and Justice calls him a prophet along with the other grand old men of the evangelical left, Ron Sider and Tony Campolo. (For more on the politics of Jim Wallis, see Marvin Olasky’s latest column, “Let’s admit who we are.”)
At the same time, many conservative evangelicals have become involved in the Tea Party movement, which advocates the opposite of what Wallis is trying to achieve politically, and which is the largest groundswell of popular political passion in two or three generations.
So what is the great man’s response? It’s disappointing. He fires off rounds in just about every direction without addressing the Tea Party’s fundamental reason for existing.
As the title of his article indicates, he takes on libertarianism, assuring us that it’s the same thing as the Tea Party. The problem is that only 2 percent of Americans identify themselves as libertarians. There may be 9 percent who hold consistently libertarian views. But according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll, the Tea Party movement draws support from 36 percent of the country. Nonetheless, Wallis spends most of his time tarring “Libertarian political philosophy.”
Though he warns his conservative brethren to beware the influence of secular philosophy in their thinking, Wallis’ own thinking is shot through with secular ideological assumptions, as we see in this statement: “Loving your neighbor is a better Christian response than telling your neighbor to leave you alone.” When Wallis hears Jesus say, “Love your neighbor,” he assumes Jesus is a progressive leftist, and means government love. It seems just as obvious to Wallis that any rejection of the ever-expanding welfare state means “abandonment of the most vulnerable.” But, according to Arthur C. Brooks in his book Who Really Cares? conservatives give 30 percent more of their income to charity than liberals do, even though on average they make less money. People who believe that government ought to be the chief agency of compassion are, by and large, personally less compassionate and assume that everyone else is like them.
In the end, Wallis addresses the Tea Party directly, but again sets up a straw man by a raw slander, flagrantly violating the Ninth Commandment: “There is something wrong with a political movement like the Tea Party which is almost all white.” With seeming generosity he concedes that it is “likely” not true that “every member of the Tea Party is racist.” (In other words, it could be they are.) He sees an “undercurrent of white resentment” and asks, “would there even be a Tea Party if the president of the United States weren’t the first black man to occupy that office?” The charge is baseless. A USA Today/Gallup poll shows that 23 percent of Tea Party supporters are Asian, Hispanic, and African-American.
The elephant in the room, however, the subject he completely ignores, is Tea Party alarm over stratospheric federal deficit spending, a concern that is reasonable, arguably Christian (Eighth Commandment), and fundamental to the movement.
Despite Jim Wallis’ self-presentation as a man who has thought through Christian principles and found himself in prophetic stance against what most evangelicals hold to be just, his swipe at the Tea Party movement (disguised as a conversation starter) is a muddled-headed confusion of terms and a battle entirely with straw men. I was hoping to be challenged. I was not.

















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back to top66 Comments to “The Tea Party according to Jim Wallis”
I wrote an article that responds at length to Wallis’ contention that the Tea Party contradicts fundamental Christian principles. In some respects your response is similar to mine, but there are some differences as well.
Here is the link: http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Is-the-Tea-Party-a-Christian-Movement.html
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“would there even be a Tea Party if the president of the United States weren’t the first black man to occupy that office?” The charge is baseless. A USA Today/Gallup poll shows that 23 percent of Tea Party supporters are Asian, Hispanic, and African-American.
Baseless? Non Hispanic whites make up 66% of the country, yet their tea party representation is 77%. The same poll reports nearly half of tea party supporters say blacks lag in jobs, income and housing “because most African Americans just don’t have the motivation or willpower to pull themselves up out of poverty.”, and ¾ agree that “racial minorities have equal job opportunities”, compared to 50% of the general population.
Video’s of overt racism at tea party events are easy to find, as are videos of tea partiers chasing away the white supremacy racists who are drawn to their rallies.
The tea party people’s anger manifests itself in personal attacks against Obama in a manner far removed from Obama’s particular policy prescriptions and into the realm of crazy conspiracy theories that delegitimize his presidency. I bet you 90+% of birthers support the Tea Party. He’s the “other”, a secret Muslim from Kenya who hates and wants’ to destroy the country. Of course this kind of attack would sound absurd to everyone if Obama was white. It’s the fact that he’s black that legitimizes these crazy conspiracy theories in the minds of tea party supporters.
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#1 Tim, I link to your review, as well as to others, on my blog, http://www.principalitiesandpowers.blogspot.com, which will expand upon this column tomorrow. (I don’t want to overshadow today’s post on my friend and colleague, Anthony Bradley.)
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Libertarianism at its core has a refreshing proclamation: go find your own way, your own dime your own time. I wouldnt wish to impose on you my beliefs. They are after all, mine. What has worked for me to achieve what I have achieved may not and need not be your solution. But I cannot give you a solution. You being a rational adult have to figure out what’s best for you. And no one other than you can tell you what’s really best for you.”
That is strong stuff.
But at one time I think the hippies of the 60s, the nonconforming Beats of the 50s and even Barry Goldwater (God rest his soul!) would have embraced that paragraph and accepted its tenets.
Is it racist? I find nothing race conscious in it at all. It is fairly colorblind and that fact alone probably gains it enemies. There are those with a vested interest in halting any effort by this nation to make “race” what MLK and so many others desperately wanted it to be: an irrelevancy!
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As Marvin makes clear, Wallis is owned heart and soul by George Soros’ millions.
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Let’s not exclude from consideration that many TEA opponents boasted of having shown up at TEA party rallies wearing KKK gowns, swastika arm bands etc
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Jim Wallis, in his own mind, created a straw racial subtext in Joe Wilson’s words last year, “You Lie!” (to President Obasma]. Wallis manufactured the notion that Wilson’s exclamation was like “a defiant rebel yell against the man in the White House…”
Wallis went on:
“There was, and is still, a hard core of racially-motivated white people in this nation who did vote against Obama because he is black, and who virulently oppose him as president because he is black. That racist core of angry white Americans resides on the extreme political right of U.S. politics.”
This is categorical judgmentalism at its worst. If Wallis knows of such vile people, then he should name them and document his vile accusations or stand down from his straw judgmentalism and divisiveness.
The truth is that Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid, actually admitted to using skin-color as a reason he supported Obama over Hillary Clinton. And what impressed Senator Reid so much about Obama’s skin-color was that it was lighter than most African-Americans. Reid actually used that conviction as a basis for opposing Hillary and supporting a black man’s candidacy. It is the Left who are hopelessly race-based in their voting behavior–and shamelessly so.
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Here is what Pastor Rick Warren said to the WSJ:
“Jim Wallis is a spokesman for the Democratic Party. His book reads like the party platform.”
________________
I can only add that there is nothing democratic about the Democrat Party. Too much voter fraid to justify calling them “democratic.”
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The tea party exists because too many people see everything they worked for going down the drain. Neither party listens to the people. They aren’t necessarily libertarian either. Wallis confuses politics with the Gospel. This is one guilt trip that won’t work.
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A straw-man falsehood that Wallis (who claimed to be somewhat pro-life) propogated in the past was that pro-life Christians only care about babies before they are born. This is as vicious a blatant falsehood as any uttered in the 20th century by anyone, especially by one who certainly knew better.
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Truthteller, “Non Hispanic whites make up 66% of the country, yet their tea party representation is 77%.”
Does the democratic party follow exact demographics of the country? Does that make them racist?
“Video’s of overt racism at tea party events are easy to find, as are videos of tea partiers chasing away the white supremacy racists who are drawn to their rallies.”
Good for them for chasing them away. There is video of Obama supporters standing in front of a polling place with sticks calling people “cracker”. Didn’t see any democrats chasing them away.
“The tea party people’s anger manifests itself in personal attacks against Obama in a manner far removed from Obama’s particular policy prescriptions and into the realm of crazy conspiracy theories that delegitimize his presidency.”
Have you seen some of the signs and slogans aimed at Bush at some of these Anti-war demonstrations? Hitler was the nicest thing they said.
“I bet you 90+% of birthers support the Tea Party.”
I bet you 99% of 911 conspiracy believers are democrats.
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“People who believe that government ought to be the chief agency of compassion…”
Gives a new meaning to “I gave at the office.”
“Sorry…you’ll have to lobby your cause in DC–they are handling ALL charity contributions thru the gov’t ‘donation’ tax.”
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The Tea Party is scary. I mean, what if they start baking cookies or something?
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Is anyone here planning to attend the big Tea Party on the Mall on 8/28?
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Sorry. No money for that.
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D.C. wrote; <i."People who believe that government ought to be the chief agency of compassion are, by and large, personally less compassionate and assume that everyone else is like them."
Well stated. I tend to agree.
One of the aims of the Obama administration is to strangle private charities more and more so that the government will be in charge of most causes and benefits that citizens can seek. That way the gov’t can be closer to controling EVERYTHING. Obama even sought to cut off tax benefits for those who give to private charities. His nefarious intentions are naked.
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What evidence is there that Wallis is “influential” or “great”? He may have a big mouth and a bigger ego, but he–like Glenn Beck–gets most of his press by saying outrageous things.
I’m not sure, though, that I grasp the notion that deficit spending is a violation of the 8th Commandment. We’ve consistently had deficit spending for nearly three decades. Why was is not a violation of the 8th Commandment when the previous administration took tens of thousands of my dollars and transferred them to private defense contractors engaged in an ill-advised war? WorldMag’s editorial pages had no problems with that kind of deficit spending, and even tended to applaud such spending. Therefore, it’s a bit disingenuous now to suggest that deficit spending is theft per se.
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Rev. Doug Wilson also took Wallis to school on his Tea Party dis-information a couple of weeks ago.
Read Wilson’s brief but pithy “Advisor to the Tamarack and White Pine.” Good stuff there!
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“Therefore, it’s a bit disingenuous now to suggest that deficit spending is theft per se.”
Not necessary. One may point out this immoral reality inconsistently, but it reamins an immoral reality. And the questions of extent and proportion (related to the spending) are also crucial–and that is where the Obama administration loses big time and wins the vast majority of the points for immorality.
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I meant, “not necessarily.”
In the same way that “flattery” or “exaggeration” can be forms of dishonesty, and over-taxation can literally be a form of slavery, so can deficit spending (spending money you do not have and that will have to be forcefully taken from others) be a form of outright theft.
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So, Joel, if proportion and extent are the operative legal tests, what extent of deficit spending makes it a per se violation of the 8th Commandment?
I agree that there are arguments to be made regarding theft. But WorldMag’s editorial page has praised deficit spending as a virtue…as long as such reckless spending was done at the behest of GOP politicians and tended to benefit traditional GOP constituencies (e.g., defense contractors and private their investors).
The Tea Party movement is also a bit too extreme. For example, Iowa’s Tea Party movement funded a billboard that compared the President to Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin. Really? I may disagree with his economic policies and believe that they will prolong the current recession. But c’mon, Hitler? Is he really comparable to a man whose regime systematically murdered more than 10 million civilians. This kind of nonsense will sink the Tea Party’s effort to present itself as viable. Ironically, Innes seems ignorant of these aspects of the Tea Party movement–aspects that give unwarranted credence to the rantings of guys like Wallis.
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How many here have been to Tea Party events? The events I have been to, well, race has never even been on the radar. And, at the events I’ve attended, you would have had to look very hard to find individuals behaving badly. Compiling all the examples of those who make exception to the rule and calling it the rule would be as bad as compiling all of Obama’s gaffes (like, “I think I’ve visited all 54 States) to make the case he’s an idiot. He’s not intellectually deficient anymore than Tea Party people are racists, angry mobs, et. al.
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Jim Wallis’ gospel is the social gospel of big government. What would Jesus thing?
I am absolutely fascinated with liberal mythology which Innes alludes to. It completely contradicts reality, but liberals almost universally believe these things to be true. The lies are told so often that they become part of American history.
Here are some myths which liberals take as gospel truth:
1. Myth: Conservatives are greedy. Reality: Conservatives give 30 percent more of their income to charity than liberals do.
2. Myth: Conservatives are filthy rich. Reality: Liberals on average earn more.
3. Myth: Rejection of the ever-expanding welfare state means “abandonment of the most vulnerable.” Reality: The welfare state perpetuates poverty.
4. Myth: Rejection of the policies of a black president is racism. Reality: Accusing anyone of this is guilty of racism.
5. Myth: The KKK is right wing. Reality: The KKK was the militant wing of the Southern Democratic Party.
6. Myth: Nazis were right wing. Reality: Nazi means National Socialism. Hitler was a socialist.
7. Myth: The Tea Party is unAmerican (acc. to Pelosi). Reality: Pelosi would have said the same thing about the original Tea Party.
8. Myth: When Jesus said, “Love your neighbor,” he meant putting government first. Reality: He meant putting others first.
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Myth: Hitler was a socialist.
There is no argument about this. Nazi Germany was a combination of aristocracy and capitalism.
“The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise.”
–William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1960), p. 263.
In other news, comparing Obama to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler actually did what he said he was going to do.
Signed,
A Disappointed Democrat
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JSINGLETARY (22): And, at the [Tea Party] events I’ve attended, you would have had to look very hard to find individuals behaving badly.
Frank: About the only “bad behavior” the Tea Partiers are guilty of is speaking out against tyranny. This must not be tolerated!
Doug Wilson quotes Jim Wallis:
… then responds:
Another myth:
When Jesus said, “Love your neighbor,” he expected this to be accomplished via government coercion rather than by voluntary giving and interaction.
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RSD, Bush was constantly compared to Hitler by the left. For most of my life “Nazi” and “Fascist” were common derogatory terms for conservatives. Of course it’s different when y’all do it.
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#24 “In other news, comparing Obama to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler actually did what he said he was going to do.”
When liberals incessantly compared Bush to Hitler, what they were saying was both were evil.
When Tea Partiers compare Obama with Hitler they are not saying that Obama is evil. What they are saying is that both are fascists. This is an economic comparison, not a term of derision.
To a liberal the term fascist simply means evil, like the names Hitler and Bush mean evil. But fascism is an economic philosophy whereby a strong central government regulates the economy by exerting heavy influence on the market, either through direct control, i.e. nationalization of corporations, or indirect control and through syndicates or collectives or labor unions (which is the definition of the word fascio).
The strategy of all progressives, is to bring about radical change by ending the old ways and instituting the new. Obama’s strategy is to bring about economic change by overwhelming current economic systems with insurmountable debt and thereby forcing a centralized takeover. This system of manufactured crises was the philosophy of his predecessor, the Chicago community organizer and ideological founder of ACORN Saul Alinsky.
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RSD, I did not say that ‘proportion’ and ‘extent’ are operative “legal tests.” I simply meant to aver that they pertain to questions of morality. And theft is immoral. I do not think I was vague or misleading. My points at #19 & #20 speak for themselves. Please take my words at face value.
I am not aware of World Mag praising deficit spending as a virtue. If they did, please quote them and talk to them about it. I speak for myself. But I do not believe (on your claim) that they made such a point on specifically partisan grounds. The fact that the GOP spends does not make it right or wrong but it is indeed true that GOP values are different and they may well spend on different priorities. Each administration should be taken on their own overall merits and each spending case should be taken on its their own merits. It is also true that spending under GOP leadership (while excessive in recent times) does not begin to toucvh the irresponsible glut of immorla spending the Democrat Party forces upon us.
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XION, your post at #23 was stellar. To get such clarity as you do without sacrificing substance or accuracy is a gift. Thanks.
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The Tea Party movement is deeply American and its participants have behaved like the salt of the earth, overall. They have been incredibly free of nonsense, racism and violence. They are exemplary! They are especially to be commended in keeping their focus on policies and substance even while their angry detractors attack them personally and unjustly and even while the media systematically distort their mission and their deeds for partisan demonization.
For this reason, the Tea Party people constitute one of the most digfnified grass-roots movements of my lifetime. They have shown tremendous integrity in the face of partisan hate from their opponents.
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28 “When Tea Partiers compare Obama with Hitler they are not saying that Obama is evil. What they are saying is that both are fascists. This is an economic comparison, not a term of derision.”
Don’t make me laugh. To imply that this comparison is meant to be anything but inflammatory is just crazy.
Same with comparisons between Bush and Hitler.
There are many others (who were truly socialists) who make better comparisons to Obama. Name-dropping Hitler is silly and doesn’t lead anywhere productive.
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As for alleged “signs” linking Obama with Hitler, we can just as easily presume that it was funded and perpetrated by leftists who love Hitler as much as they love Obama, as we can assume other unknown motives. Obama supporters have been know to create hate like that in order to discredit their opponents.
But who knows if or who or why such things were ever done?
Let’s be fair-minded and not take the poisonous bait from isolated and anecdotal (alleged) examples that hotheads may have manufactured in the first place. This pencant for rushing to use unproven accusations to smear a group is disgusting and everyone here knows it.
How desperate can the Tea Party opponents be for arguments to smear them? How desperate can some of you people be to rush to believe the smears just because you disagreee with the Tea Party plitically?
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Fact: Hitler was a National Socialist. This is not arguable among reasonable people. But I do agree with Bob that comparing Obama with Hitler is ridicuous. And such ignorance is not something I have ever seen among Tea Partiers. Only someone seeking to discredit the Tea Party would ever make such a claim or a total wacko who has no influence on either side. I only have seen such nonsense among those who loathed George Bush.
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#32 Bob “Don’t make me laugh. To imply that this comparison is meant to be anything but inflammatory is just crazy.”
See what I mean? Liberals cannot even discuss the word fascism without flipping out. It is an economic term. But to liberals it simply means “all things evil” and hence they are incapable of having a civil discussion about it.
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#28 – Interesting. I have some thoughts for you Xion:
Fascism requires four things to truly qualify as fascism:
1. The dictator (or small group) has complete power.
2. Strict social and economic rules & regulations come into play.
3. Extreme nationalism exists, often lending itself to racism.
4. Violent suppression of all opposition to this government keeps everyone in line.
Think Hitler’s Nazism, and you see all the criteria were there. Think about Islam, and you’ll see why some factions of Islam are often considered fascist.
So, I would not regard Obama as a fascist. However, he does clearly move closer to it on the political spectrum than any on the right. To back up that observation, here are some elements of fascism gleaned from Jonah Goldberg’s well reasoned book; “Liberal Fascism.”:
1. Everything is political & politics are everything.
2. Race-centrism (think Eirc Holder and Harry Reid).
3. Demagogic populism.
4. Militarism (also, mobilizing society like an “army”).
6. “New man” rhetoric.
7. Heavy use of unifying rhetoric & myths.
8. Nationalism.
9. Politics as religion (”Statism” or “Statolatry)”
10. Hostility to individualism.
11. Futurism.
12. Strong control over culture (culture engineering).
13. Strict social & economic rules applied in policies.
14. Suppression of opposition’s voice, influence.
Yes, Goldberg does see such trends on both extreme sides of the political spectrum, but he makes a strong case that it is intellectually disingenuous to apply it primarily to the far right. In fact, he reasonably shows that it often applies more heavily to the far left.
By the way, Mussolini was an admirer of Marx.
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Nothing I have written above about the definitional or practical leanings of the far left toward some classic elements of fascism should be taken to imply that I would ever regard Obama in the same league with Adolf Hitler. He’s not. That comparison is unproductive and just wrong.
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The Tea Party does not exist. It is an ad hoc bunch at best, most good intentioned, but largely being led by self-anointed and mostly unqualified “spokesmen”.
Just today there was an article in my local paper by one of those “spokesmen” who claimed his organization had 75,000 members. Unfortunately, a google search of his organization revealed only three nationwide mentions of this supposedly large organization. Two featuring him as the spokesman and one reporting that Dick Morris was doing its fundraising.
They chose their symbols very poorly. They are not in any sense “patriots” or revolutionaries. Most of them hate or claim to hate the government waaay too much to be called patriots. And the only revolution they seek is to turn the forces of the plutocracy loose to rape and pillage those who only want to make a living. Theirs is a libertarian dystopia where absolutely NOTHING other than money matters (or can speak loudly enough to make a difference) and those who make the most get to make ALL the rules.
As I have often noted, government is a blunt instrument. But it is the only instrument we have to keep the BP’s, Goldmans, Haliburtons Enrons of the world from gathering vast unimaginable power over us all. These guys, whether they know it or not, are catspaws and dupes.
Anyone who could even dream that the US government, as it is presently constituted and acts is a “tyranny”, needs to read some history, and perhaps visit a few other countries.
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35 So…are we talking about fascism or socialism? I’d encourage you to look up the difference.
“See what I mean?” Conservatives can’t even get their terms straight.
Okay, that’s it for snarky comments. It’s impossible to argue with people like Xion.
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One more thing, Xion. You seem to hold a very loose definition of “flipping out”.
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#36 Joel, I agree with that and thanks for #30. I read Goldberg’s book which is what corrected my thinking on fascism which I had already suspected.
America will never have a dictator in any formal sense of the word due to our system of checks and balances. Neither will we have a state run media. However, when the executive, judicial and legislative branches all align with a nearly unanimous supportive media, America can have all of the same elements of tyranny of a fascist dictatorship.
This is precisely the Third Way which fascism represents which is touted by the Clintons and all big name progressives, namely a “middle” ground between socialism and liberalism which combines a strong central government and heavy controls and taxation over a subservient market which maintains private ownership.
Here are some components of fascism:
1. Fascism is an intellectual and organizational tradition which means “national syndicalism”. Today we would call it collectivism, which is an anti-individualistic philosophy which says your purpose should be to live for the good of the state.
2. Fascism is a revision of Marxism by Marxists and is therefore a movement with its roots primarily in the left.
3. Fascism has a strong element of racism. Every single bill proposed by progressives and signed by Obama had a racial element, doling out benefits based on the color of one’s skin.
4. Fascists were radical modernizers. Throw out the old and bring in the new! Progressives want to ban all hydrocarbons and create an eco-economy which flies in the face of physics and reality.
5. Fascism is ultimately totalitarian, restricting freedoms and giving ultimate authority to tyrannical and bureaucratic central planning.
6. Fascism is militaristic with a strong emphasis on creating civilian armies which do the bidding of the state. Obama proposed precisely such an army with his Civilian National Security Force. Obama has kept all of the Patriot Act and seeks to add warrantless electronic tracking of the location of every American and warrantless access to all private emails. The compliant and worshipful liberal army has no objection to any of this.
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#38 Arcadia “Anyone who could even dream that the US government, as it is presently constituted and acts is a “tyranny”, needs to read some history, and perhaps visit a few other countries.”
Not as it is presently constituted, but the direction in which we are heading.
Obama gives a speech nearly every day where he ridicules anyone who disagrees with him. When people complain of taxes, he mocks them saying they should be thankful that he gave them a rebate.
Arcadia uses the same tactic to say that everything is just fine … now. It is like ridiculing people on a train hurdling toward a bridge out that they are perfectly fine and should be thankful for the complimentary beverage. It totally ignores the bloody reality of the carnage which is just around the corner.
No liberal here has ever condemned the fact that Obama is seeking to radically curtail freedom by gaining warrantless access to the whereabouts of every American and all of their private emails. No liberal here has ever condemned the White House snitch line which was set up to turn in friends and neighbors. No liberal here has ever condemned the full frontal attack from the White House on dissent. No liberal here has ever condemned the Fairness Doctrine or the McCain Feingold Act which limits political speech.
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Joel,
So, please explain what legal test Christian conservatives are using when they suggest Obama’s deficit spending violates the 8th Commandment but that the deficit spending of Reagan and Bush II did not violate the 8th Commandment.
By invoking the 8th Commandment, Innes (and his employer) are suggesting that all Christians are conscience-bound to oppose such deficit spending as a matter of Christian duty. Further, they are implying that church sessions should excommunicate members who do not actively oppose Obama’s deficit spending. I do oppose Obama’s deficit spending. On the other hand, I’ve grown weary of folks like Innes who persist in suggesting that fiscal conservatism and social conservatism be established as tests of Christian orthodoxy.
After all, let’s not forget that Liberty University invited a non-Christian to be its commencement speaker, apparently believing that this non-Christian’s conservative credentials compensated for his denial of the Christian gospel.
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#9 NJL,
Very well stated. Agree 100%
I think the encounters so many politicians had at the “health care town hall” gatherings served as a wake up call. One lady pol (McCaskill?) remarked: “I just dont get it. Dont you trust me?” To which the assembled folks replied “NO, we dont”
Had BHO ran on doing all the things he has now initiated, would he have won such a huge majority of votes?
Let’s just hope we dont get fooled again.
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The reactions and spins of the left in response to the increasingly effective and appealing Tea Party are so revealing. The Tea Party is regular Americans speaking up freely on policies and with substance, and behaving responsibly at the same time. And the left cannot stand it! The left has a long tradition of mischaracterizing their opponents to turn them into straw so that they can demonize them on fasle grounds.
The spin by Arcadia is more amusing yet: “The Tea Party does not exist.”
It seems that some may be recognizing that the demonizing tactic by others has not worked well for the left. Now some are resorting to outright denial.
I guess the leftist template now is this: they don’t exists but they are racists.
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#44 Sawgunner “Had BHO ran on doing all the things he has now initiated, would he have won such a huge majority of votes?”
Absolutely not! That is why liberals are reluctant to say what they mean, but occasionally the truth slips out. The tactic is to always deny, deny, deny one’s intentions until the truth eventually comes out and then defend, defend, defend.
This is why we are told that we’ll find out what is in a bill after it is passed. The democratic process has become one of deception and secrecy.
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RSD, why should I explain something I never raised? How many times must I explain to you that I never spokke of “legal tests.” I think my points at #19 and #20 are perfectly clear as stated. My response to you at #29 was rather clear too. Why would you request an explanation on something I did not even raise?
here’s my explanation, once again, of my point: Just as taxation to a reasonably limited extent can be legitimate but in excess, it can get to a point where it is abject slavery; so can deficit speanding conceivably play a moderate legitimate role in addressing a legitimate emergency of sorts but when it reaches a certain unrestrained extent that is immoral, it can be called theft. What legalists or lawyers try to do with this point is not my concern here. I am speaking of morality and I am making the point that deficit spending has now clearly sunk into the point of abject immorality and theft.
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Arguing that Nazism is a phenomenon of the left is revisionist history meant to bolster the fortunes of the contemporary American right. Glen Beck’s nearly incoherent rants on the subject revolve around the fact that the Nationalist Socialist Party has the word socialist in it. This makes about as much sense as arguing that democracy leads to totalitarianism because North Korea is the Democratic Peoples Republic, or that Republicans are communists because the Republican forces of the Spanish civil war where supported by communist Russia.
Hitler’s maniacal cruelty had nothing to do with the emergence of the modern welfare state in Germany. The fact is that similar social programs where being instituted in all the developed western nations around that time, including France, Great Briton, and the United States only serves to illustrate that not everything instituted by the Nazis was a crime against humanity.
It takes some truly bizarre reasoning, on top of an ignorance of history, to argue that institution of social welfare programs lead to the crimes of the Nazis. A more carful and honest assessment of the history will reveal a politics in Germany that used fear of outsiders, minorities, homosexuals, minority religions, communists, and the intelligentsia, as a path to political power. The Nazis used organized protesters, often armed, to intimidate their political opponents, The Nazis relied on the support of the manufacturing conglomerates and banks who where promised rearmament contracts, free trade, and relaxed regulation. The Nazi’s spread their fear and hatred with a party controlled media who rejected objectivity in favor of advancing fear mongering propaganda.
The parallels to the American right are as obvious as they are frightening. No amount of revisionist history and propaganda can fool those of us that know the truth.
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In his Huffington post, Wallis wrote; “The Christian answer to the question ‘Are we our brother’s keeper?’ is decidedly ‘Yes.’”
Conservatives already live by this principle far more than leftists, in my observation and in the observation of many–including responsible researchers. And there is nothing in Christianity that bids us to advocate that the government be our BIG-brother “keeper.” As a Christian, I prefer legitimate liberty and limited government!
Wallis continued: “Loving your neighbor is a better Christian response than telling your neighbor to leave you alone.”
Who, specifically, is telling their neighbor to “leave them alone”? What the Tea Party is asking for is moral and decent retraints on BIG government power and profligate (immoral) spending. We want the government to “leave us alone” so we can better and more freely and capably love our neghbors rather than serve the government as its working slaves.
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Truthteller,
I agree with several things you wrote above, historically. But a careful and honest study of Naziism in its own context does reveal that it is largely socialist in ideology and practice, not merely in name. I see fascism and radical socialism as very similar ideologies at many levels. There are some differences too in various contexts, but the ideologies are related.
Have you read Godlberg’s book; “Liberal Fascism”? He sees elements of fascism on BOTH sides of the political spectrum but he blows out of the water the cheap common stereotype (by leftists) of fascism as an ideology of the far right. Frankly, the political (right-left) spectrum is becoming more of an intellectual ping pong table these days than a functional tool for rational discussion. But the cheap stereotypes of the left that characterized the right as fascist is thoroughly and incontestably refuted by Goldberg.
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#48 Truthteller,
No one here is talking about the crimes of the Nazis. Everything I have said was talking about economics. I keep saying this over and over. Fascist economics and Obamanomics have many similarities. But no one is calling Obama a criminal or murderer. Can we stick to the subject please?
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Truthteller:
Revisionism isn’t wrong when the original needs revision. The labeling of conservatism as Nazis and Fascists has been a predictable ad hominem of the Left for decades. It is also patently, ridiculously false. National Socialism didn’t just happen to have “socialism” as part of the name by accident, as if some inattentive typesetter forgot to make a change before publishing a pamphlet, and once out, there was no use going back. Socialism, eugenics, stateism, and the entire progressive panoply were fully expressed in Hitler’s party, as well as Mussolini’s Fascism, which he founded as another socialist party.
“It takes some truly bizarre reasoning, on top of an ignorance of history, to argue that institution of social welfare programs lead to the crimes of the Nazis.”
It would indeed. That’s why no one is aguing that. The billboard was clumsy and inept, precisely because Hitler was so evil, that emotions interfere with the message that too much government is never the solution.
Totalitarianism relates to the scope of government, authoritarianism, its severity. As governments become more totalitarian, that is, more involved in more things, more often, they inevitably become more authoritarian, because government, by definition, is coercion. It is far easier for the soft despotism of the nanny state to fall into the hands of a madman like Hitler, than a government constrained by constitutional limits to its legitmate spheres that allows Burke’s “little platoons” of self organizing and decentralized citizens find their own specific and concrete solutions to problems.
Wall’s myopic view of Biblical juistice is clouded by his statist, progressivist tendencies towared totalitarianism that he exhibited as an SDS radical in the 60’s. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus say, “Sell all you have and give it to Caesar.”
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The charge that conservatives today tend to be racist or that the Tea Partiers are somehow racists (accusations fully without basis) is pure political demagoguery. And political demagoguery is definitively akin to fascism.
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Yes, similar programs were being advanced in the West. Eugenics was popular here, too. All brought to us by liberals, progressives.
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To some extent we are engaged in a war of words. When we use the word “liberal,” our liberal friends react as if we called them a dirty word. They prefer “progressive,” although that is an extremely old fashioned term that used to refer, in America, to the more left-leaning Republicans, such as Theodore Roosevelt. Some of them prefer “moderate,” which is laughable for a person who believes that the government should perpetually support the lower classes and should own some businesses and heavily regulate others. What’s moderate about that?
They go absolutely apoplectic when we use the term “socialist,” even though we are using the term as a neutral descriptor.
Why are they ashamed of those labels? I’m not ashamed to be called a conservative, although I now consider myself a libertarian rather than a conservative. Call me a “free maket proponent” or a “capitalist,” and I will be very happy that you understand my position. If you call me a fascist, I will correct you–not because the word is a bad word but because it is not an accurate descriptor of my views.
As Xion said, when liberals compared President Bush to Hitler, they meant that they regarded the President as an evil monster. It was a visceral response meant to shock others. When conservatives compare President Obama to Hitler, which I do not do myself, they are talking about economic and political policies that are similar. They are talking about the statism advocated by both of them.
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Kyle A and Ken, Well said!
If you look at the Financial Overhaul Bill that passed today it is obvious what sort of ECONOMICS we are talking about here. The economic style of this bill is in the grand tradition of syndicalism, which in Italian is pronounced fascio.
Syndicalism uses federations of collectives, trade unions and civilian armies to bring about social change. This Financial Overhaul bill “is chock-full of provisions that have little to do with the financial crisis but cater to the long-standing agendas of labor unions and other Democratic interest groups.”
A principal component of this bill makes it easier for unions, environmental groups and other activist organizations to put their representatives on the boards of directors of every corporation in the United States.
The bill is chock full of racist, classist and feminist provisions, creating more than 20 “offices of minority and women inclusion” which will dole out jobs and benefits based on racial and gender preferences.
The bill funds Democratic and social-activist groups like ACORN and Obama’s Civilian National Security Force.
“The new bureaucracy is an enormous reach across virtually every segment of our economy, and a massive expansion of government influence in our daily financial lives.”
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RSD’s Question (43 et al) about what “test” is used to determine whether something violates the 8th commandment (prohibiting theft) is interesting.
Borrowing isn’t stealing, but borrowing when you believe you can’t repay the loan is logically unethical, and seems to fit broadly under the notion of stealing. Borrowing as a nation when the repayment seems likely generations from now isn’t ethical in my view, and is categorically like borrowing knowing we can’t repay.
I would prefer we never borrow as a nation. There have been times of crisis where it was deemed necessary by our leaders (random examples: the Revolutionary War, and World War II.)
To argue (as it seems RSD is doing) that one must be consistent nd oppose all deficit spending if you oppose the current deficit spending fails on several fronts. It presents a logical fallacy by assuming that all debt is the same. Clearly it is not. In addition, the desire to define a “test” is frighteningly legalistic. Jesus refuted this sort of legalism by asserting that God looks at our heart, not at a rule book. There are times when we might need to borrow to complete an urgent tast before us.
Parenthetically, The deficity spending of Bush was something I opposed strongly, and I am not alone in my opposition of his fiscal policy.
What Conservaties (and I think Tea Party people) are saying is two fold: First, we (our congress R and D) have spent beyond our means. WAY beyond our means. Second, what we are spending on isn’t effective. The first argument is difficult to oppose, it seems factual. The second depends on your world view, particularily your notion of the corruptability of humankind and human systems. The current wave of spending are on big human systems that tend toward corruption and lots of centralized authority.
On that front, I am with C.S. Lewis, who I will paraphrase here. I favor deomcracy not because I think no man deservers to be a slave, but because I believe that no man deserves to be king.
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The Tea Party, in my view, consist of people who are angry over their realization that they are just as dependent on Big Government as were Reagan’s welfare queens.
They have good and legitimate arguments against big government, but the economics of prosperity isn’t a good argument, or even their main argument.
After all, Tea Party people would still be against big government if they took the data showing that big government enhances prosperity — all the more so, I should think. The Tea Party wants a different kind of prosperity for society.
Casinos might increase a nation’s GNP, but that economic benefit is no reason to support gambling. Similarly, brothels and prostitution.
If you think that casinos and prostitution are evil, then the fact that they (may) enhance prosperity makes them even more detestable.
So then, why do sophisticated Tea Partiers make the deficit argument? (Leaders Baynor and McConnel admit that deficits don’t matter.) Because, they want to win the election, and the argument about deficits is the rhetorical argument they calculate will best persuade independents, regardless of its analytic defects.
The best arguments I’ve heard in favor of conservative economic policies claim that 1.) the movers and doers of the business world will acquire more “confidence” when they see Congress cut spending and taxes, and 2.) the consequences of Keynsian policies are only being camouflaged by improving economic indicators until quite suddenly and unexpectedly — within three years, perhaps — the bond market will destroy the US Treasury and the stock market will collapse. Both arguments are faith-based.
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Wallis’s fixation on government programs is misuided. It’s Caesar’s realm–not something Jesus embraced as an agent of the Gospel. Paying taxes is not giving, for it belongs to “Caesar,” not God.
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There is one problematic aspect of the Tea Party movement, however:
Frank, that quote by James Bovard is deceiving. I (and many decent conservatives, including some Tea Party peopel) support our military and this global war on terrorist jihadists precisely BECAUSE we have a big beef with the worst abuses of modern times. Those who support our military opposition to terrorists jihadists is based on the FACT that we OPPPOSE the warring mission of those who brutally kill innocents and seek total chaos in the Middle East.
Actually, the Tea Party people have not made this issue front and center, but I am glad that they do respectfully include those of us who hate “holy war”, terrorism and injustice enough to stand against it–even at a dear sacrifcie.
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Frank, your apparent problem continues to be that you regularly confuse our brave U.S> military with the Taliban and Al Qaeda (the actual perpetrators of the worst abuses in modern times).
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Joel Mark (61): Frank, that quote by James Bovard is deceiving.
Frank: It is the opening line from Bovard’s linked article. I offered it as a provocative teaser.
If you would read the entire piece (it’s not very long), I’ll be more than happy to interact on it with you.
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Joel Mark (62): … you regularly confuse our brave U.S> military with the Taliban and Al Qaeda (the actual perpetrators of the worst abuses in modern times).
Frank: That would be your take on what I am doing — and you’re welcome to it.
What I think I am doing is trying to address what I perceive to be injustices by my government — which is both the authority under which I live, and my national federal (small “f”) representative before God and the rest of the world.
I know full well that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are perpetrators of the many of the worst abuses in modern times. The civilized world knows it too.
But America’s government — the one under which I live, the one which represents me — also perpetrates many rather heinous abuses. One only needs consider that our invasions and
occupations ofpresence in Iraq and Afghanistan have resulted in massive destruction of infrastructure, as well as the maiming and death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghans, on a scale way beyond what we have suffered on 9/11.You remember, the people we are busy “freeing” at exorbitant, phenomenal cost in American lives and treasure.
It’s pretty much a matter of lawful jurisdiction. The US government has legitimate (i.e., God-ordained) jurisdiction to punish those who do evil to America and Americans, even if we have to pursue them around the globe to do it. But it does not have legitimate jurisdiction to to “liberate” the people of other nations or to punish those in their nation or region who do evil to them.
Oddly, when we try to do the latter, we often end up displacing, hurting or killing the very people we are ostensibly trying to liberate.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Sometime ago — I freely admit I don’t know when — our presence in Afghanistan went wrong. And we were wrong to have invaded Iraq all along.
I have no say — I can’t affect — what the tyrants and warlords of third-world backwaters do.
But I do have a say in what my government does in my name.
Granted, I am but one voice. But joined with countless others, we may very well cause our elected government to bring the troops home.
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#64 – Frank wrote: “…our invasions and… presence in Iraq and Afghanistan have resulted in massive destruction of infrastructure, as well as the maiming and death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghans, on a scale way beyond what we have suffered on 9/11.”
You make my point, Frank. You continue to confuse our side and our mission with that of Al Qaeda–the ones doing the maiming and murdering. Our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq is the primary factor that gives hope for preventing more of the evil to which you refer. That’s our mission. We are not the perpetrators of those things, although we are at war with those who are. We are the ones rebuilding infrastructure. We are the ones carefully rooting out the terrorists (who hid behind women and children) for destruction. It is the terrorist’s mission to make sure that if they don’t do the actual murdering, they will make it as likely as possible that when we deal with them, other innocents will be killed as collateral damage. That is Al Qaeda’s strategy, not ours.
Frank wrote; “I have no say — I can’t affect — what the tyrants and warlords of third-world backwaters do.”
But coalitions of free nations (including ours) can and, in some cases, must have a say and a positive impact when they send troops to those horrific places where terrorism is taking root to stop the mission of the destroyers.
I am not for a passive “hands off” and “do as you please” attitude toward the fascist Hitlerian forces of today’s world. It only makes it worse, in my view. I take a Churchillian attitude toward them.
Oppose the war all you want, Frank, but stop accusing our side of what Al Qaeda and the Taliban do and coninue to do–which we are there to stop.
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Truthteller,
Breitbart is offering $100k for the video you say exist of racism at tea parties. So far it’s gone unclaimed. Hurry while offers last. Also, a whopping 11% overlap of “non Hispanic whites” attend tea parties. That would mean many are democrats. And, blacks make up 11 % of America, while 97% voted for Obama. Could it be the color of his skin mattered more than the content of his character? I’m happy to yield the floor all the way until November. In fact, I’m more than happy. Last glance at the polls, I’m down right giddy…
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