The flavor of Tea, Part 3
I knew Glenn Beck back when. I was a manager of a seminary café for eight years, which is to say that I made sandwiches and salad by myself all morning until the students trickled in at noon. Beck was my constant companion. He made me laugh so hard I had to put down the knife sometimes. He was Mr. Fun Guy back then, with not a religious or political bone in his body that I could discern.
Then I lost my job, and I also lost a couple of years with Beck. It must have been around that time that God whacked him, because when I turned the dial again, he had uprooted from his local Philadelphia station to “high atop Time Square,” and was suddenly “the third-most-listened-to talk show in America.”
Gone was the unrelenting mindless clowning. Gone was the Valentine’s Day feature I looked forward to, where panicked husbands who had forgotten the solemn occasion until the last minute were helped by the radio host to fill in a form letter of eternal devotion.
But it was obvious to me that Beck wasn’t into the extra money or fame. It was obvious to me that he was a new creation in Christ. I know he’s Mormon and all that. I also remember reading a book by Professor Harvey Conn decades ago that said that you have to be very careful when judging a person’s salvation—some people with lousy theology have their hearts right with God, and some people with impeccable theology are cold toward God.
Glenn Beck isn’t cold toward God. He is red hot. He is “a brand plucked from the fire” (Zechariah 3:2). He knows what pit he was in—and he knows exactly who took him out of it. If I were his station manager I would be biting my fingernails every day, because the man just doesn’t hold back about Jesus, and I can say without hesitation that I have not heard the essentials of the gospel more clearly and boldly in any church than on his program.
I have heard all the criticisms, and I can find sympathy for them—about the Mormonism, about the dangers of religious syncretism, etc. But regarding the Mormon thing, I think we should regard Beck as an Apollos and pray for a Priscilla and Aquila in his life, to steer him better (Acts 18). I just don’t see how anyone can listen to the man for a solid week and not be as blessed as I am by his courage, his utter lack of fear of man, and his sharp and personal testimony of Christ’s transforming power.
For more on this topic, see Marvin Olasky’s “Beckoning Christians” from the current issue of WORLD.
For more on Andrée’s experiences related to Sunday’s 9/12 Tea Party rally, click here.
To hear commentaries by Andrée Seu, click here.
Editor’s Note: Please see “Justin Taylor on a ‘tragic mistake’” for a response to this column.

















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back to top112 Comments to “The flavor of Tea, Part 3”
I also have heard all the things about Beck being a Mormon. The only way I know he’s a Mormon is by whot others tell me. I believe them. I also believe Beck. He claims that he has found salvation through faith in the Son of God. I have to believe that.
I allways watch him on FoxNews and sometimes listen on the radio.
I have heard nothing that is not square with the Christian gospel.
All I know is what I hear from him. I can’t jusge him from what I hear others say.
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Andree, the theological direction of this post concerns me. Does not satan himself appear as an angel of light (II Corinthians 11:13-14)? Right doctrine matters, and when God “whacks” someone it is more effective than the mafia. A mormon is not a new creation in Christ. I also enjoy listening to Glenn Beck and have heard him state that he is a mormon, and agree that he needs our prayers.
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I even know some Presbyterians who might actually be saved.
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Unbelievable. So you’re gonna go with this, World Magazine? Olasky? Belz?
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Good grief, what a huge disappointment.
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A number of years ago World Magazine alerted me to the “stealth” Bible. I became personally involved and contacted Zondervan and the IBS. The book of mormon is well beyond the “stealth” Bible. Yes, this post blew me away. It has a “groupie” feel to it, and what happens to discernment when we make someone into a “rockstar”.
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Are we truly moving towards “anything goes”? While Beck may be born again, he is trying to make Mormonism mainstream Christianity(along with the new tv commercials).
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I am unsure as to where Beck stands as “man judges the outward appearance but God sees the heart.” However, I will make this observation:
A Catholic is not necessarily a Christian, but a Christian can be a Catholic.
A Baptist in not necessarily a Christian, but a Christian can be a Baptist.
A (fill in the blank) may not necessarily be a Christian, but a Christian may be a (fill in the blank.)
We all walk according to the light that has been shed on our lives. I am in agreement that Beck may need someone to shed some light on some of his un-biblical and non-biblical beliefs, but what goes for Beck goes for me as well.
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Beck may be born again, but for him, a self-professing Mormon, to be leading a national Christian movement is very disturbing. Certainly this can only serve to mainstream Mormonism and, in the minds of many, bring it under the umbrella of the gospel.
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C.S. Lewis paints a picture in The Screwtape Letters of demons arguing theology and doctrine. They know it, better than the common man.
Where as doctrine is important, it is not a pre requisite for salvation. Christ doesnt ask the thief on the cross what he thinks about free will before accepting the thief.
What becomes a huge disappointment is when we add to what is necessary for salvation.
Whether or not Beck is an Apollos, only Christ knows. I for one, will not judge a man who claims Christ as his Lord and Savior. Satan has theology, but he doesnt ever claim that.
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Thank you for saying this. Beware of judging the state of a person’s soul by what church, sect, denomination, cult they are currently associated with. The Holy Spirit can call us from out of anything, under a fig tree, from the synagogue, from a temple filled with idols, from a barstool, a college library, a Bible study, a baptism service, a house a prostitution or a strip joint, a war front or a church pew on Sunday morning.
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Again, I am not judging his soul or his salvation. I’m concerned that because of his charisma and his conservativism, his religion becomes associated (and accepted) with mainstream Christianity. If Beck were a Mormon Democrat (and there are such people), I doubt that he would be so well-received among Christians.
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do not put the veil back over your eyes. That is why the world is in the condition it is in. We did not test the so called (i will use the term losely)prophets. Instead we try to be PC or nice. That is fine and dandy when it does not deal with the Word of the Father. I like Glenn as a Historian,but one thing people have been mislead for a very long time is; The Father never sends a shepard who is deficient, it is the people that choose the wrong leader or false prophet. He may say christ is his saviour, but has he been baptized with water for repentance (this goes for all of us) The Apostles didnt baptize the sinners with water because they needed a bath, they did it because before you can receive redemption and the Holy spirit baptisim confirms your trust in the Lord. Was not this the Sign the Father spoke about as John preached in the river Jordan. Remember one thing when we deny Him any of His Word we deny ourselves from His Truth and Salvation. Again it is not our place to judge, but it is our place to test those who come in the name of the Father. Elohim bless and Peace always in Yeshua. Elohim barab ahavah emet teshuvah.Yeshua is yeshuah.
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Poor Beck gets it from both sides.
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Metanoia,
Perhaps it’s possible for a person to be a professing Mormon—which belief system is significantly different from orthodoxy in many essentials of the faith—and still be a Christian. In Beck’s case, we have a guy who we’re extolling as politically smart and savvy, but woefully ignorant about the weightier matter of who Christ is, and if Beck were to read Andree’s column, he would likely not feel particularly moved to reconsider his beliefs. That would be *dangerous*! Likewise, any Mormons reading this column might similarly feel confirmed in their aberrant theology.
When Andree writes that she’s aware of “the dangers of religious syncretism,” I have to wonder: if this doesn’t raise a red flag for her, what does?
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YOOPER: Spot on of you to recall the Stealth Bible episode. That’s a great comparison.
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No offense MJ, but circumcism wasnt required for salvation…why would baptism be?
There is no Jew or Greek. It is in Christ alone that we are saved.
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KBELLS: I think you and others here miss the point. We aren’t targeting Beck so much as alerting Christians who seem to dismiss Biblical calls for discernment in such matters.
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What does the mormon church teach about Jesus Christ and what is required to be saved? It matters.
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Metanoia,
If I may offer a different perspective?
I was raised (nominal) Catholic, but only heard and believed the Gospel (and was re-baptized) in a “European” (Southern) Baptist church at age 19, while I was stationed with the USAF in W. Germany. For about the next 18 years, I considered “being a Christian” to mean the same thing as you do: a redeemed, born-again member of the elect, saved by grace through faith, sealed unto salvation, etc.
But having traveled down the reformed/covenantal track over the last ten years, I’ve come to understand that being a Christian and being saved aren’t necessarily the same thing. The model for this thinking is the O.T. “church” — namely Israel.
Just as Paul warns that not all who were of Abraham’s seed and bore the covenant sign of circumcision were his true children (and he uses Jacob and Esau as examples), likewise not all who name the name of Christ and partake of His covenant signs (baptism and the Lord’s table) are of His flock.
We all know “believers” of various denominations and traditions who have made professions of faith (whether by “walking the aisle” or being confirmed) and have been baptized (whether credo- or paedo-), etc. but whose lives bear the fruit of nominalism. Just like the circumcised-but-apostate Jews in Old Covenant times, these “believers” are still members of the New Covenant, but they are living as covenant breakers.
Perhaps you’ve heard the comparison between Billy and Ruth Graham. Billy was raised in the Presbyterian church but was something of a hellion, and came to know the Lord as a teenage boy. Ruth on the other hand never knew a time when she didn’t know and lover her Savior — no discernible conversion “experience” on her part.
There are Christians of both traditions who have fallen away but hide it well (from other men, i.e.). There are also Christians of both traditions who have fallen away and no longer bother to hide it from others. I think the biblical testimony would indicate that these people are no less Christians than apostate Jews were Jews. Both are in the covenant (whether by their parents’ actions when they were young or by conversion as adults), but are no longer living faithfully in accordance with the covenant.
Just thought I’d share a different perspective on the matter.
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Who is considering Beck some sort of prophet? Is even the media? Or is it just those who want to denounce his salvation.
The rally was a fundraiser for the Special Warriors foundation…it wasnt to religion, moromonism, or some political agenda.
Sheesh. If you have a problem with Beck, give him a call and ask why he’s still involved with Mormonism.
Quit trying to prop him as something he isnt or has ever claimed to be in regards to a prophetic or even political/religious leader…
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I wish people who call themselves “Christian” were as good at loving those they consider “non-Christian” as they are at criticizing them.
I wish people who call themselves “Christian” were as good at effectively sharing the Truth of the Gospel as they are at talking about what they consider heresy.
I wish people who call themselves “Christian” were as good at knowing Biblical Theology accurately as they are at pointing out what they believe is unBiblical doctrine.
I wish people who call themselves “Christian” knew that the Devil is our enemy and people are his victims.
I wish people who call themselves “Christian” could recognize that other Christians who do not criticize the things they criticize may be just as truly following Jesus Christ.
By The Way, I do know that LDS Doctrine is clearly UnBiblical, unhistorical, misleading, counterfeit, and deceiving. And I also know that many LDS people do not understand the radical difference between the Bible and LDS Doctrine. I believe that LDS people (and many others) have a great difficulty understanding God’s Grace. And, they do not understand God’s Grace because too few people who call themselves “Christians” effectively demonstrate God’s Grace to the people around them.
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For more on this topic, see Marvin Olasky’s “Beckoning Christians” from the current issue of WORLD.
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Re. Beck:
I’ve known Roman Catholics who evidenced more love for the things of Christ than “born-again” evangelicals. Likewise, I currently work with a fellow who shows similar evidences. (I still haven’t “studied out” an approach to him yet, but in the meantime, we have various conversations about Christ that make me wonder if he’s not a believer.)
My point is, I think that the truth of the Gospel is so unquenchable that the Holy Spirit can bring even Mormons, Jay-Dubs, etc. to saving faith, while they remain (for however long and for whatever reason) in their old religious tradition. I wouldn’t begin to presume to declare the state of Glenn Beck’s or my co-worker’s eternal soul.
That said, I do think that it is either ignorant or disingenuous when the LDS church pretends to be just another Christian denomination. I saw this in Phoenix several years ago when they asked to have a Mormon section at a Promise Keeper’s rally. And I’m seeing it now when Beck “honors America’s religious heritage” (to paraphrase an earlier WMB thread) — the same “religious heritage” that the angel Moroni told Joseph Smith was damnable. So I am quite sympathetic to the concerns of Macrutabaga, etc.
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The link to Olansky’s comments is a good one. Thanks.
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Frank #24 “My point is, I think that the truth of the Gospel is so unquenchable that the Holy Spirit can bring even Mormons, Jay-Dubs, etc. to saving faith, while they remain (for however long and for whatever reason) in their old religious tradition. I wouldn’t begin to presume to declare the state of Glenn Beck’s or my co-worker’s eternal soul.”
That’s my personal testimony in a nutshell. I attended a Catholic church in my early years. I acknowledged the claims of Christ’s lordship over my life while a Catholic. It took me awhile to sort some things out. Eventually I walked in clearer truth, but I never questioned my salvation while I was still a part of the Catholic church.
Let’s pray for the Glenn Becks of the world to come to a clearer knowledge of the truth.
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This is another good discussion. Be sure to read Marvin’s piece as well.
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Thorn (21) and Neil Evans (22):
Really, guys. C’mon. You’re speaking to arguments that aren’t being made here.
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Been reading Andree for years. Have always been stirred by her raw insight into things of God and His word. This is the first time that I have been seriously disturbed by something she has written, and this is disturbing from head to toe. Bummer.
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Macrutabaga – I have a sense that many did not even read the post, but merely respond to comments. I am addressing Andree Seu of World Magazine and the article “The Flavor of Tea, Part 3″. We need to be very careful about stating that anyone is “in Christ”, especially those who belong to a cult where the book of mormon trumps the Word of God, false teaching about Jesus Christ, a works based salvation…
I find it hard to believe that I am having to type this at this site!
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Andrée,
Thanks for this article – and for all that you write!
Last week, I was away from home, and when I returned, I printed and read all of your articles! (There wasn’t time to read all the others; but, as usual, yours were the ones that I most value).
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This article is sorely lacking in any understanding of LDS theology. While I cannot judge Mr. Beck’s salvation, one thing I know is that if he truly believes Mormon doctrine, then the Jesus he believes in is not the Jesus of the Bible; the Father he believes in is not the Father of the Bible; and the Holy Ghost he believes in is not the Holy Spirit of the Bible. To assume he is a Christian makes no sense, maybe even less that assuming he is not. When someone professes to believe in God, don’t you think it’s relevant to ask WHO “God” is?
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“We aren’t targeting Beck so much as alerting Christians who seem to dismiss Biblical calls for discernment in such matters.”
Who is dismissing discernment then?
The article was about Glenn Beck, not LDS theology, not what they believe, but with her experience having listened to Beck over the years.
She seems to think he gets Christ, correctly, despite his Mormon background.
So where have I missed the point, and why are you so frustrated with her article? I think she’s entitled to her opinion, and I’ve yet to see any evidence of any church latching onto Beck as some cult of personality.
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So Andree believes one could become a Christian, and later believe non-Biblically?
Could this be a TULIPian violation?
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Good read..
Christianity and anti-Christianity in their final conflict
By Samuel James Andrews
http://books.google.com/books?id=E8QrAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=text
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“When someone professes to believe in God, don’t you think it’s relevant to ask WHO “God” is?”
Ask Satan that question, I bet he has a better understanding of WHO God is, than we do.
Knowledge of who God is does not set you free from sin. Christ does. Where as it is revelant to ask that question, the reason we seek to answer it, is to know God better, to build that relationship. It is not for igniting or securing our salvation.
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What’s the TULIP violation? Luther didnt leave the catholic church till years after posting his theses. Why? He preferred to reform it.
Possible Beck has a love for those still in Mormonism. Or possible he isnt a christian. But assumption and speculation isnt what Priscilla or Aquila did, they went and talked to Apollos, not challenging his salvation, but to give him better understanding.
One should not prop any man up as if they are an antidote, not even the most theologically sound christian. We all hold some belief that is unbiblical, we just arent perfect, but Christ is.
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Thorn (33),
I really don’t know what’s unclear about the objections being raised here. Maybe it would help if you posted your understanding of what you think those objections are.
While the article may not be about LDS theology, it was certainly Andree’s point to bring it prominently into the discussion. Also, Andree does more than “seem to think” Beck gets Christ.
In a later post you write, “Knowledge of who God is does not set you free from sin. Christ does.” How about a false Christ? What power over sin does he have? Isn’t the question still glaringly obvious: Who is Christ? Are you aware of just how different the Mormon and orthodox views of Christ are? You must know of scriptural admonitions for us to maintain purity of doctrine in such essentials as the nature of God. Beck’s a reasonably intelligent guy. Maybe he’s not aware of Mormon particulars. But it lacks discernment to broadcast, as Andree does, even a hint that those particulars do not touch on matters of salvation. She would have done better to just say Beck is good in matters of political discourse, or some such thing.
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So how many columns have there been so far about Beck without anybody from WORLD interviewing him and telling us how he reconciles being in a false religion with his claims to personal faith in Christ?
For the record, duringone of our previous discussions I e-mailed WORLD and suggested an interview along this line; Marvin Olasky e-mailed me back and said it was a good idea and they’d probably follow up on it after the election.
All that we know now is that (1) Many Christians have said, “He sure sounds like a Christian to me, and I’m sure he is”; (2) He is a member of a cult that brands itself as “Christian,” sounds as Christian as it possibly can, and is currently working hard to appear to be a different denomination and not a different religion; and (3) Whether he is or isn’t a genuine Christian, while he “sounds like” a Christian and yet is a Mormon, he is in grave danger of leading Christians toward accepting Mormonism.
Thus, until he personally gets a chance to answer where he stands, and distance himself from Mormonism (or embrace it, or show he is still confused), public assurances from others that he really is a Christian aren’t enough for me. If he is still a Mormon, then he is a wolf in our midst as we accept him as a fellow believer and inadvertently promote his false religion. If he is not still a Mormon, he needs a chance to say so. If he is a true believer who has not yet refuted Mormonism because he hasn’t yet seen the need to do so, then he needs to be taught and not to be put in a position of leadership.
Meanwhile, indeed “the stealth Bible” is a very apt comparison, and one that should get WORLD’s attention.
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Cheryl (39),
If you are saying that any of us are in danger of “accepting Mormonism” because we choose to watch or listen to Glenn Beck, then I must say that I disagree.
By the way, to date, I haven’t heard him say anything advocating Mormonism.
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Nope, Rondu, I think probably none of the WORLD bloggers are in danger of accepting Mormonism because of Glenn Beck. (I wouldn’t say “absolutely for sure”; if nothing else, some of the unbelievers could potentially be drawn more to him than to evangelical Christians they know–but I truly don’t think any of us are in grave danger of that.) And by the way, Mormons rarely do say anything “advocating Mormonism” in public. In public they say things we agree with.
Do I think some of his thousands or millions of followers are in danger of becoming Mormons because of him? Absolutely. Do I think that many, many more (possibly even on this blog) are likely to think, “Hmmm, Mormonism doesn’t sound so bad to me. I guess they really are Christians after all, or at least a lot of them are”? Without a doubt; I think that is a huge danger. That is, in fact, what Mormonism is currently advertising for. Ever since the Salt Lake City Olympics, or before, their focus seems to have been encouraging Christians to see them as just another denomination. If they can cease to be seen as weird and cultish and in error, then they have won step one in their marketing campaign.
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What’s wrong with this article is simply the lack of discernment. It’s not the “dangers of Mormonism”. The author states that Beck is “red hot” toward God. Which God?
No one is saved by their knowledge of God, but if the object of your faith is not “The One True God” of the Bible then you have faith in a worthless god. Even “red hot” faith in a worthless god is still worthless!
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has spent many years attempting to “mainstream” its image and Beck is at the forefront in doing this. He never specifically advocates LDS theology, because, if he did, it would be obvious that the LDS “God” is not anything like the God of Biblical Christianity.
Like many Christians who like the “other” things Beck talks about, this author needs to take time to discern what Beck means when he talks about God. It’s always important to define terms!
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Mormon God is literally a Father, has a wife, and makes babies. Oh, and his other job is to learn all he can… Starting to sound rather small next to the Christian idea of God.
Mormon Jesus is not a sacrificial lamb taking on the sins of the elect, and also imparting his righteousness to them. The Mormon Jesus amounts to being a good example of a person becoming a God. And we can do that too, if we just “do right”.
If you get to call this Christian, then I get to say I’m the president of the United States.
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“How about a false Christ? What power over sin does he have? Isn’t the question still glaringly obvious: Who is Christ?”
Of course a false Christ has no bearing.
Who is Christ is still the same question that Satan can answer better than you…
John the baptist had to send his disciples while in prison to ask Jesus, if he was Jesus…The guy preparing Christ’s way had to ask…
Christ didnt ask the thief on the cross his view of the doctrine of the Trinity.
Ms. Seu’s discernment is fine. She’s listened to Beck for years, and not heard a peep in regards to the mormon version of Jesus from Beck.
But is the mormon false jesus any different than any other idol? How is it any different than the things we give ourselves over to daily, instead of Christ? If Christ covers those sins, he can wash away the mormon jesus as well.
If pure doctrine was about some level of intelligence on say TULIP, where is the line drawn?
Pure doctrine is that Christ has set a man free from the bondage of sin (John Ch. 8: 34-36), thus he believes, thus he is no longer held to the crap of legalism or antinominism, but free to live according to Christ as we were created to be.
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The Mormon false Jesus is not different from other idols, if your talking about having “faith” in idols for salvation. Then your faith is in vain. There is no salvation in any false idol, including the Mormon Jesus.
I certainly was not talking about getting doctrine 100% correct. But if Glen Beck believed God was a tree, should the author not point out that his faith is in something other than the God of Christianity? Mormonism is closer to atheism than Christianity. Discernment is essential for any writer on any topic. this author displayed almost none.
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With many wonderful LDS members in my family, I’m hearing you RN O’Grady. This post bothered me, too, but I don’t pay a lot of attention to Glen Beck.
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Interesting post and comments. I have never personally heard Glen Beck speak. I hope he is a genuine Christian who is for whatever reason claiming to be a Morman. I wonder if he is friends with Mitt Romney?
Being a Christian seems diametrically opposed to being a Morman. I don’t see how they can fit together without there being some hidden agenda on one side or the other. Does being Christian trump the Morman claim or does being Morman trump the Christian claim? I don’t know, but God does. He sees the heart.
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There is a danger that people might confuse the Mormon god with the Christian God, just as there are people who don’t make the distinction between God and Allah. I’m sure Glenn Beck won’t behead anyone. Still, he has an RCC foundation. We don’t really know how much of the LDS he accepts. (So, yes, World should interview him). That said, if he can get people thinking about God again and they return to their churches, that won’t be a bad thing.
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NJLawyer: It’s one thing to hope that God, in his providence, brings good out of something evil; it’s another to support any propagation of that evil in the first place. Sure, Glenn Beck may somehow, by some incredible act of cognitive dissonance, reject heretical aspects of Mormonism and really believe orthodox doctrine–maybe he’s like President Obama and hasn’t been in church when the bad stuff is being taught–we can grant that possibility, however remote and unflattering it would be to Beck’s sense of awareness. But we Christians simply should not give any impression that Mormon heresy is not a danger to a person’s soul, and Andree and others here have done just that.
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Is it possible for heretics to proclaim Truths that they themselves neither believe nor understand? (Can only Bible Believers speak true words?)
Is it possible for people who claim to be speaking Truth to in fact not have that Truth ruling their life? (Is it only non-Believers who misrepresent the Truth)
Andree (and none of the previous posts) minimized neither the Reality of Biblical Truth nor the heresy of LDS Doctrine. She does seem to have a much more personal understanding of Glen Beck than anyone on this blog. Perhaps she even knows more than she shared. But then most of us are pretty good at jumping to conclusions and letting others know where they are dreadfully wrong.
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God works in mysterious ways. Just sayin’.
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NJLawyer: Yes, God works in mysterious ways. Nothing anyone has said here would indicate they believe otherwise.
You, too, Neil Evans: nobody is saying unbelievers cannot speak truth, or that believers are correct in all they say.
It’s become pretty clear to me that none of Andree’s apologists here even understand the objections that have been raised on this issue; unfortunately, it’s also clear some or all of those people lack a decent understanding of the various scriptural admonitions that we hold fast to sound doctrine, or that Romans 16:17 is in the Bible at all.
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I think I do understand that it is very misleading to even hint that LDS doctrine is even close to Biblical. I think I do understand that LDS people use Biblical words yet apply unBiblical meaning which makes it especially dangerous to those not informed on the difference. I think we do understand the objections being raised.
I also think that there is good understanding of the admonitions to hold fast to sound doctrine. My concern, and I think the concern of others, is that “holding fast” can be misunderstood and applied in ways that harm rather than help the effective communication of the Gospel.
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God is a jealous God, and He does not have much tolerance for false prophets. Glenn Beck has a passion for truth in the political realm. It is my prayer that the same will apply to faith and his profession of a trust in Jesus Christ, and that he will see the mormon “church” for what it is – a cult, and run from it!
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That’s cool, Neil Evans. In what way do you see “holding fast” being misunderstood–by myself or others of like mind–such that the effective communication of the Gospel is being harmed?
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Beck has no theology. There was no theological content in his speech, merely repeated reference to a belief in a god. It was really the only way he could disguise his rally from being perceived as the hate-fest that he promised and the attendees expected to see. It really was a pretty neat trick. The attendees were led to believe that whatever it was they wanted or wished, Beck’s generic god agreed with them and would deliver.
Yet WMB and Marvin can’t wait to hop on any bandwagon he chooses to head up.
Wow!
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I, too, have read and appreciated Andree Seu’s columns for several years. Some of her columns and thoughts have actually inspired me. Therefore, I was disappointed to read her comments indicating that Glenn Beck is a Christian. May God give us all discernment, for we surely need it.
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I am greatly disappointed that Andree Seu, typically a very insightful writer, gets the Gospel itself wrong. I hope the editorial leadership at WORLD will sit down and have a talk with her. Christianity is a subjective response based upon an objective reality, the saving Gospel of Christ’s vicarious atonement.
No other message saves. Mormon gospels and other false views of eternal life do not save. Labels, of course, do not save, but this is not to say that they do not matter. I have been greatly challenged and emboldened by many things that Mr. Beck has said and done. Yet his syncretism should be a concern to us all. Born again believers don’t believe a socio-political Gospel. We believe in a biblical, forensic Gospel with socio-political ramifications.
Could Mr. Beck falsely be calling himself a Mormom. It’s possible. But if he is really reading the Word of God as he maintains, he will come to see that his hope can rest only in the historical biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ-a denial of the Mormon view of obtaining eternal life. Which Jesus Christ. Let the objective Word of God decide.
Seu’s lack of perspicacity here is disappointing. Good intentions, zeal, niceness, and even usefulness in God’s sovereign plan, are not automatically the biblical fruits of salvation. When we so casually cast aside the truth of Scripture for which so many of our forebears have shed their life’s blood, we give ground to the adversary.
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Arcadia (56): … the hate-fest that he promised …
Frank: Would you care to back that up?
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Neil Evans (50): Is it possible for heretics to proclaim Truths that they themselves neither believe nor understand?
Frank: Balaam comes to mind.
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I am so glad that Ms. Seu, with a wave of her hand, dismisses 2000 years of orthodox Biblical truth as irrelevant due to Mr. Beck’s life-change. Finally, we can be relieved of that cumbersome doctrine of the Trinity –narrow, bigoted folk like Athanasius have no place in the modern evangelical pantheon. Not to mention the aseity of God, his immutability, or the full divinity of Christ. Nobody cares about doctrine anymore –what we care about is story, and Glenn Beck has a great story, ergo he must be a Christian, maybe even a prophet, sent to lead America back to her glory days when everyone worshipped God –whatever god they happened to choose. A sad day for World…
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For those Pastor’s who have commented on this thread:
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
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Andree – Come to think of it, who has a waiver from the duty of a watchman? Satan and his demons will appear as light and as sheep in wolves clothing. We sure don’t understand much about sheep and the work of shepherds today!
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#55, Christians denigrating each other over their failure to have identical perspectives is a good example of ineffective Gospel presentation. To warn others of the errors of unBiblical ideas is one thing, to warn them away from clearly Christian people is another. We are all prone to misunderstanding; those prone to improperly “holding fast” legalistically mar the unity of the faith.
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Thank you Andree’
I am repeating a comment I made in response to, “Genuine Revival”, by Cal Thomas. http://online.worldmag.com/author/cal-thomas/
Jesus loved to surprise His disciples. I love the selection He made for the first missionary assignment. The woman at the well would have never passed the credential tests of the religious leaders of the day, but nevertheless… “Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Him because of the woman’s testimony.” (John 4:39).
Jesus used her while her thirst for the living water was fresh, deep and unimpeded by religious dogma. She was in the very early stages of her spiritual journey, still uncertain of even what she was experiencing…”Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” (John 4: 28, 29). She did not claim to have all the answers but inspired others to begin their own search. Is this not what Glenn Beck is encouraging? Hasn’t Christ promised to reveal Himself to those who search for Him with all their hearts?
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For every theological shibboleth there is a gatekeeper with a flaming sword insuring that no one may trespass without being challenged. These are one and the same who will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
As a general rule I find Andree’s post a bit too fluffy. But I find that the key to her post is in the following statement:
“I think we should regard Beck as an Apollos and pray for a Priscilla and Aquila in his life, to steer him better (Acts 18). I just don’t see how anyone can listen to the man for a solid week and not be as blessed as I am by his courage, his utter lack of fear of man, and his sharp and personal testimony of Christ’s transforming power.
My take on what she is saying? Beck is speaking with a passion that is unusual for a public figure. Nothing that he has said is directly tied to Mormonism and only generically ascribed to God. The God that most of us can relate too without the infinite number of theological rules that are laid out by religionists.
I can understand why some purists may want to parse every word that comes out of Beck or Seu’s mouth or pen. But in this case it is a general observation they have made which doesn’t deserve the level of scrutiny reflected in some of the comments.
Peace out.
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“with a wave of her hand, dismisses 2000 years of orthodox Biblical truth as irrelevant”
Isnt that what you do as well though? Wave away all the doctrine of Christ when you sin?
The fact of the matter is, we all create our own false idols, we give other things prescedence over Christ on a daily basis. We trust in man and not in Christ, etc etc. Even as christians we struggle with sin.
How is a mormon jesus any different than what we do daily? How is it any less paid for by Christ on the cross?
If Beck honestly believes that Christ bled and died for his sins, how is that any different than you or me? Christ died for what we have gotten wrong just as much as what we’ve done wrong.
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The comparison to Apollos fails – we have a complete Revelation. Apollos was pointing to God, not the god of the mormon church or higher power of the AA. There is an emergent movement today in which works trumps the Word of God and belief. The mormon “church” fits the works mold quite nicely – right down to their skivvies! Why is the mission of so many to make others feel comfortable in a cult?
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I think it may be pointless to write any more but here goes…
THORN- “How is a mormon jesus any different than what we do daily? How is it any less paid for by Christ on the cross?”
Very different! Faith in the Jesus of Mormonism means that the sins of Latter Day Saints are not paid for on the cross! When I sin, my debt has already been paid on the cross. LDS only believe they start with a clean slate. They see the cross as failure and look to the Garden of Gethsemane, not the cross for their initial cleansing. After that, salvation is by grace “after all we can do”.
If Beck believes in Mormon theology (it’s hard to believe that he would not) then he does not believe “that Christ bled and died for his sins” on the cross!
That’s how he’s probably different from me and I hope you as well!
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Neil Evans: What I and others have done is point out the things you mention in your first couple sentences in post 53. I think the motivation for doing so is to heed instruction, given in scripture, to point out serious error when it is observed. It isn’t straining gnats to mention the importance of the doctrine of the Trinity. If you think it’s being “legalistic” to accentuate the importance of a proper understanding of the nature of God, you may want to take up the argument with the apostle Paul.
Metanoia: If you think it’s cherishing a shibboleth to accentuate the importance of a proper understanding of the nature of God, you may want to take up the argument with the apostle Paul. If you want to dismiss as uptight, sword-bearing gatekeepers anyone who voices the same concerns as Paul—concerns about our understanding of the very nature of God, Himself—then I wonder what issues you do think are worthy of discussion. If the nature of Christ isn’t a doctrinal issue worth keeping pure, what doctrines do you think the biblical writers had in mind when they stressed sound doctrine? Beck is an openly practicing Mormon, yet you say we’re over-parsing his words when we point out the disharmony between true Christianity and the insidious Mormon counterfeit? Aw c’mon.
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How much more than a person presently knows or understands are they accountable to believe in order to be saved? What is the content required to have saving faith? What inward heart does God know that may not be outwardly visible to other people? What part of saving faith is a gift of God and what part is of our own belief? Can a person truly have saving faith and not grow in their understanding of what God has done in them?
YOOPER #68, It is no more my “mission to make others feel comfortable in a cult” than it is your mission to make others feel trapped in legalism.
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Mac: You make my point exactly. The post is not about Christology, it is about Becks passion in the public and his courage in taking his faith to the market place. Notice I didn’t use a capital “F” in faith.
Beck is not arguing Christology. The context of Seu’s post is about Beck professing how his faith is relevant to his life and work. If he were invited to preach at an Evangelical church, then you and I would be in complete agreement and we’d have nothing to argue about.
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Andrée – I can’t believe what I just read. You’ve long been one of my favorites at WORLD, and this article just seems so incongruous to everything you’ve written in the past…
Could you listen to Marvin on this one? And reconsider your conclusions? It’s understandable that all the attacks coming at someone doing a measure of good work would be frustrating, but this is way beyond even the bounds of responsible exaggeration. I don’t want to be permanently done with taking you seriously as a Christian writer, which is roughly where I’m at right now.
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The comments here have ALL recognized the radical difference between LDS and Biblical doctrine. Andree’s post was about GB’s views. No one other than Andree has expressed personal knowledge of his views. We all agree that LDS doctrine is unBiblical. What we do not agree on is the proper way to comment on GB’s beliefs.
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Neil – When all else fails throw out the legalist argument. Give me a break! There is freedom in Christ, not the mormon “church”. It has been said that 97% of rat poison is good food, it is the 3% that will kill. I don’t know what you just don’t get about being cautious about stating that someone is “in Christ” especially if the individual claims that he is a mormon. Wake up!!
Andree Seu has been silent on this thread, and so will I after this post.
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There is freedom in Christ; but evidently not enough freedom for a person to conclude that an acquaintance is a follower of Christ if other believers (who do not personally know the acquaintance) conclude otherwise.
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Neil Evans! I thought we already established that wasn’t the point of contention.
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I listened to Glen Beck’s entire radio program (at work) five days a week for years. Around two years ago I noticed he started talking about Jesus a lot and I felt he was starting to have an agenda for the Mormon faith. Something just didn’t sit right in my spirit. I can only speak for myself. I don’t listen to him at all now.
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RNOGrady,
I dont disagree with you about Mormonism.
“After that, salvation is by grace “after all we can do”.”
If this is not the case, as the Bible clearly says, then we must avoid holding others under such requirements.
“If Beck believes in Mormon theology (it’s hard to believe that he would not) then he does not believe “that Christ bled and died for his sins” on the cross!”
The point is, we dont know. Beck was raised Roman Catholic, converted to Mormonism about a decade ago after years of substance abuse. He has only talked about Jesus in relation to the Bible, as far as I know.
Seu goes on the basis of what she knows, others are going off of his membership to Mormonism. I’d prefer we quit assuming, and ask him.
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Here’s one issue that keeps coming back to my mind. The column and other comments about Beck have said both (1) No one has ever presented the Gospel more clearly than Beck; he really gets it and (2) He’s still a Mormon, but maybe that’s because he’s a baby Christian who hasn’t yet been taught.
Which is it? It can’t be both.
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I haven’t heard the man at all, and have no “judgment” on whether he is saved. But I see only two possibilities here: (3) He has actually been very, very well taught–as a Mormon–and therefore is very good at speaking to Christians using their lingo or (4) He is a Christian who is somehow still a Mormon, but a bad one, who doesn’t actually know what his religion teaches.
But I don’t know how we can give him credence as a leader and a very insightful man, and a good mature Christian who speaks wonderfully well about the Gospel but who just hasn’t happened to discover yet that his whole religion is a house of cards.
Really, only two possibilities exist here: (5) By remaining a Mormon, and yet already on some level presenting himself as a Christian teacher, Glenn Beck is being deceived by Satan and is being kept from the reality of his religion; or (6) Glenn Beck is part of the deception himself.
He may be truly born again; I don’t know. I do know that biblically a novice Christian is not to be a teacher, and shouldn’t be leading a “movement” religiously. And I also know a man can’t be a mature Christian and a Mormon, because once he understands his religion he simply must refute it. So, while he is a Mormon who has not renounced his false religion, we can pray for him, but we can’t see him as a leader in a religious sense. Until he refutes Mormonism, when he says “Jesus,” we need to think of the very real possibility that he is promoting a false religion. Follow him politically if we choose, but keep our distance theologically until he clarifies this.
I’ve lost a lot of respect for WORLD on this one, honestly, that they’ve been willing to “take a side” on this question without giving us Beck’s one words on the Mormon question, and I hope they soon work to help clarify this issue for all of us who care about the Gospel (including those of you who are taking a different “side” in this debate).
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Sorry, that should be Beck’s “own” words. A news magazine should interview a person before they’re willing to publicly tell us he doesn’t believe what his religion believes, in spite of the fact that his religion is known for sounding as “Christian” as it possibly can.
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Beck talked a number of times on the radio about church services on Sunday. He said he teaches Sunday School at his Mormon Church in CT. Mondays on the radio he’d even talk about the topics spoken about on Sunday. He has many authors on his radio program and I’ve checked them out. Most of them are Mormons too.
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“Hot for God”, “sharp and personal testimony of Christ’s transforming power”, and “I can say without hesitation that I have not heard the essentials of the gospel more clearly and boldly in any church than on his program.”
WOW! Those are effusive terms of praise for Beck’s faith.
This is what happens when conservatism becomes more important than the gospel.
This is what happens when private judgments trump centuries of Christian teaching.
The author must attend a very poor church, since Beck proclaims the gospel with more clarity and boldness than her church.
The author must be pretty dismissive of her seminary professors, because I can be pretty sure none of the professors at Westminster Seminary would agree with her column.
And finally, WORLD Magazine has done a great disservice to Christians by publishing this. They better not flatter themselves as having more discernment than periodicals like Christianity Today. I don’t think CT has allowed an endorsement of a cult members salvation like this columnist does.
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#84 says it all.
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THORN- I don’t think you have followed what I have said. I am not holding Beck to any requirements and I don’t know if he is saved or not. What I do know is that this author has made statements without discernment, which makes this article poorly written.
No author, Christian or otherwise, should adamantly state that Beck is “red hot toward God” if they don’t at least define what “God” means. The clear implication of the article is that Beck is “red hot” toward the same God that Christians worship. I hope he is, but I have no reason to assume that and neither does the author. Discernment is not about determining if Beck is saved, but about discovering, at the very least, who it is he has “faith” in BEFORE making comments about that “faith”. If Beck’s “faith” is in a man who earned his way to godhood than it is a worthless belief, not matter how red hot it is! I hope that’s not the faith he has, but I’ve known many LDS and it IS what they believe!
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His politics are fine. But his theology is Waaaaay off.
Same with Romney.
Please don’t be suckered. Andree, love your stuff, but this time you are off.
David
Red Letter Believers
“Salt and light”
http://www.redletterbelievers.com
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http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/09/16/andree-seus-tragic-mistake-on-the-gospel-of-glenn-beck/
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http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=1144072
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Thank you for posting that, Aaron. It’s very good. (I’d already read yours, Neil, and didn’t bother to read it this time, but if I recall correctly it pretty much says the same things Andree Seu says here.)
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The SBC’s North American Mission Board now lists the LDS under “newly developed religions” instead of “cults and sects”. Richard Land, president of the SBC’s Ethics & Liberty Commission has referred to Mormonism as the “fourth Abrahamic religion” after Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Sounds like mainstreaming to me.
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Or at least the camel’s nose in the tent.
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Andree said: “But it was obvious to me that Beck wasn’t into the extra money or fame. It was obvious to me that he was a new creation in Christ. I know he’s Mormon and all that. I also remember reading a book by Professor Harvey Conn decades ago that said that you have to be very careful when judging a person’s salvation—some people with lousy theology have their hearts right with God, and some people with impeccable theology are cold toward God.
Glenn Beck isn’t cold toward God. He is red hot. He is “a brand plucked from the fire” (Zechariah 3:2). He knows what pit he was in—and he knows exactly who took him out of it. If I were his station manager I would be biting my fingernails every day, because the man just doesn’t hold back about Jesus, and I can say without hesitation that I have not heard the essentials of the gospel more clearly and boldly in any church than on his program.
Andree, Beck (and I have listened to him often and enjoy his passion for truth in politics) preaches a different Jesus. Clearly so. With the amount of people who read and respect your writings and challenges (myself included), the above statements you made concerning Beck leave my jaw hanging. What do you mean, “I know he’s a Mormon and all that?” That little line all by itself says much about either of two things: Either you don’t know the gospel or you don’t know Mormonism. Frankly, I don’t think either of you but that you have simply gotten caught up in the passion and emotion of Beck himself. Andree…you need to sincerely retract (with a genuine repentent heart…see Galatians 1 concerning Paul’s statements on the gospel) those statements for they have the potential to lead others astray, just as you have been in this particular case. I will pray for you.
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I might also add that World needs to take a long hard look at themselves and how this article was allowed to be posted. Marvin O. had a nice article on Beck and seemed to put the man’s Mormon faith in the proper perspective. But what about King’s College and their new hire for president? Will Marvin O. be consistent when it comes to embracing personalities over the embrace of the gospel of Christ?
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Either BECK is a Mormon and doesn’t understand who they REALLY ARE, or is caught up in the feel-good Mormon community. If he is a REAL Christian, I hope his eyes are opened before his family is too entrenched in the Mormon community and he loses his family. The MORMON CHURCH is happy to give his wife and children to someone else. A man and his young daughter whose wife was given in marriage to a Mormon went to our church. The young child came to Sunday School every other week. The Christian ex-husband had to be careful not to make waves or the Mormon church would keep him from seeing his daughter. The daughter saw NO DIFFERENCE between Mormon Sunday School and Christian Sunday School.
You have to be fairly entrenched in the Mormon Church for a while before they tell you all the secrets–the things that might bother your soul.
I’m in ARIZONA for over 30 years. I’ve met Jack-Mormons (a Mormon guy told me what that is). I’ve read books from Concerned Christians (Mormons who CAME OUT) and met young Mormon missionaries who “bend the truth” or don’t really know what the Mormon church really stands for yet. More than one Christian friend has lived in a “Mormon neighborhood”–not a good thing.
The Mormon shpiel has changed over the years. First they didn’t like Christians, NOW THEY ARE ONE. Maybe Beck has yet to be shown the difference between Christians and Mormons, or he is turning a blind eye to it. Sometimes, just like the wife of a cheating husband, you don’t want to know the BAD stuff.
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Personally knowing someone helps you understand them. Glenn Beck focuses on important cultural and political issues, making good points that I mainly agree with. I just don’t care for his drmatic presentations and antics. I think they get in the way of taking him seriously, so I prefer hearing what others say about his programs.
I’d rather he omit his personal theology and simply emphasize that of the founders in admitting that they were not the last word in our rights and responsibilities.
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After reading 97 comments from smug, self-assured anti-Mormons who seem to have been appointed by Jesus Christ himself to proclaim who is and is not a Christian, and after seeing my beliefs so maliciously mis-represented, I ask: If I came here to attempt to represent what I, as a devout Latter-day Saint, actually believe, would my post even be allowed? And if it should somehow be allowed, will I then be told, “No, you don’t believe that. You only pretend to believe that. We, who know the hearts of all men, know what you really believe!”
It is painfully obvious to me that those who pretend to be such experts on Mormonism — and especially those who have so gleefully mocked the Book of Mormon, have never even gotten past the Title Page, which Joseph Smith said was a translation of Moroni’s cover plate, and which states that one of its primary purposes is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/ttlpg
Or have read the testimony of the Three Witnesses, who heard the voice of God declare that the translation was by his gift and power:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss
Or have read the declaration of Nephi, “I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/33/6#6
Or have read the exclamation of the Lamanite queen, “O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/19/29#29
Or have read the words of the angel to king Benjamin, “And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.”
“And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3/8,17#8
Or have read the prayer of the people in response to Benjamin, “O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/4/2#2
Or have read the prayer of Alma, “O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/36/17-18#17
Or have read the testimony of Alma, “I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/5/44,48#44
Or have read the testimony of Mormon, “Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/hel/3/28#28
Or have read the testimony of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ himself, “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/9/15#15
“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.”
“Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/11/10,14#10
Yes, my Jesus is indeed a different Jesus than yours. But my Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible! My Jesus has a body of flesh and bone – the same body which he won at such great cost, which he showed to his apostles after his resurrection, saying, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24:39)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/24/39#39
My Jesus was not ashamed of his resurrected body of flesh and bone! He walked and talked with his apostles for 40 days in that body, and then he ascended to heaven in that same body, and the angel declared, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/1/11#11 (Acts 1:11)
No, but according to the creeds of orthodox Christianity, he is ashamed of that body and died again. Or maybe he just hid it under a rock until he needs it for his second coming?
My Jesus is the same who after that glorious ascenscion, appeared, standing beside his Father, to the first martyr, Stephen, who declared, “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:56) But no, according to the creeds of orthodox Christianity, poor Stephen was just seeing double!
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/7/56#56
My Jesus is the same who prayed, in his “last will and testament,” in that great intercessory prayer, that his followers would become one with him and with the Father, in exactly the same way that he is one with the Father, and share in his glory! (John 17:20-23)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/17/20-23#20
If John 17 is true, and if the creeds of orthodox Christianity are somehow also true, then at the last day all believers shall join with the Father and the Son in one indescribable, incomprehensible, unimaginable, infinite blob of immaterial pseudoplasm!
My Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible: he is not the Jesus of the creeds.
The Jesus of the creeds is a post-Biblical, un-Biblical invention of the political councils of the state Church of Rome, who revered Greek philosophy more than the word of God and pronounced Jesus dead on arrival, by annihilating his physical body. Those same creeds then muzzled God, forbidding him ever again to call a prophet or to dare to speak so much as one more word of scripture!
And don’t you dare tell me that the Bible itself says that it is all that God ever chose to speak to man! If you use Deuteronomy 25:58, and Revelations 22:18 to try to muzzle him, then you are putting false words into the mouths of Moses and John! They were referring to their own books, not to a library of books that would be cherry-picked hundreds of years later by uninspired men. Scripture itself refers to many books that ought to be in the canon, and even quotes from them.
Yes, I am, most emphatically, a Christian! But I shall never shall be an “orthodox, creedal Christian!” So stop all this puffed-up comparison of “Christianity” with “Mormonism.” If you want to compare “orthodox Christianity” with “Mormon Christianity,” then we might have a conversation. Otherwise you’re calling us names.
Please, go ahead, tell me that I am going to hell! My answer? “Why thank you, I am looking forward to serving there!”
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/138/57#57
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
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Beck, like many Mormons in the Tea Party and the Constituion Party, is a believer in the Whitehorse Prophecy of Mormonism, which states that the LDS will be the saviors of America at some catastrophic point in the future. Beck isn’t stupid, but he is certainly deceived. If he were in Christ, he would flee the LDS cult and repudiate everything it believes.
WORLD’s refering to Olasky’s article isn’t making up for Seu’s error. I have read WORLD for 17 years. I am very disappointed.
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HT HALL JR., what was so smug about my post #97?
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Hi HT Hall Jr,
I am a Christian who grew up in Sandy, Utah so I know quite a bit about the LDS faith.
I have a few questions about your post: 1) Where in the creeds do you think it says that Jesus was ashamed of his body or died again? I have never heard that before and I have studied the creeds. The creeds, based on Acts 1, say that Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days after the resurrection, in full view of the apostles.
2) Why do you say you believe the Bible and then say John 17 can’t be true? Again, I have never heard it interpreted as saying that we would be an “infinite blob of immaterial protoplasm”. Rather, the book of Revelation and the historical teaching of the Christian church is that we will have very real bodies in the new heaven and new earth and that Jesus’ body after His resurrection is a glimpse of that.
3) Do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are both spirit children of God the Father, physically conceived and borne in a union with the Heavenly Mother(s)? If so, that is a very different teaching than the Bible and historical Christianity.
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hth,
AFTER you become a new creation in Christ, Bible commentary will begin to become possible for you.
God has providentially preserved His Word perfect in the Bible. It is thus sacred, infallible and final authority.
The book of mormon is N/A.
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My two cents for what it’s worth: John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father, but through me.”
If a person states I believe the Bible is the true word of God and my salvation comes from believing Jesus Christ is my savior, and that God is the one and only true God, then John 14:6 applies to that person. I further believe that if a person has a personal relationship with Jesus then there should be fruits of the spirit in that person’s life. The individual should feel compelled to seek out God in His word and in prayer, each and every day (as humanly possibly). And, that individual wouldn’t profess to be anything other than a follower of Christ, hence the word Christian. I also presume that person wouldn’t be attending a false church, but rather attending and supporting a God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, Bible based church and adhering to God’s word for guidance, doctrine and theology. So my question would be does the shoe fit?
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Post #98 HTHALLJR.
Some really great information on your post. May I respectfully pose some questions of my own for you to peruse and if willing, rebut? Honestly I am not trying to disparage here, but hopefully enlighten by seeking truth. Thanks.
If the principle of “progression” is eternally true, why is it that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not gods of their own worlds?
If it is necessary to have a body in order to become a God, then how did the Holy Spirit, who does not have a body, attain the status of godhood?
If the book of Mormon is the most correct book of any on earth and contains the fullness of the gospel, then why does it not contain the essential Mormon doctrines of eternal progression, the priesthoods, the plurality of gods, that God is an exalted man, and the 3 degrees of glory?
If the book of Mormon was transmitted to us by the power of God, why does it have thousands of changes in it?
Why does the Mormon Church still claim the book of Abraham is inspired Scripture, when it has been demonstrated that it is not that, but is instead an Egyptian burial papyrus?
How could the Garden of Eden be in Missouri (according to Mormonism) when the Pearl of great Price 3:10-14 tells us it was the area of Assyria when it mentions the rivers of Eden located there?
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Post #98 HTHALLJR Some more questions if you will:
Mormonism teaches an infinite regression of Gods. But an infinite regression of gods means that there is no first god by which his subjects were exalted to godhood. If there is no first God, how can there be a second and a third, and thus there be the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression?
If Elohim, which is God the Father in Mormonism, was a man, then he changed from being a man-to-man God. How is this possible when the Bible says in Psalm 90:2, that God is God from everlasting to everlasting?
Joseph Smith said he saw God the father (and Jesus) in the first vision in 1820. Smith said he received the priesthood in 1829. In the Doctrine and Covenants 84:21-22 Smith said that you cannot see the face of God and live without the authority of the priesthood. How did Joseph Smith see God when he didn’t have the priesthood?
How did Joseph Smith carry home the Golden plates when the weight of the plates, if they had been pure gold, would have been over 200 pounds?
Some later Mormon apologists are theorizing that the Golden Plates were not pure gold, but an alloy weighing as little as 50 pounds. There is no mention by Joseph Smith receiving any supernatural help carrying the plates. How is it possible for Smith to run with 50 pounds of metal plates under his arm, for three miles, while being pursued and attacked three times?
In Mormonism, the father is called Elohim and Jesus is called Jehovah. But in 1 Kings 8:60 it says that “The Lord is God”. Literally in the Hebrew it is “Jehovah is Elohim”. How do you explain this passage that says Jehovah is Elohim?
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Post #98 HTHALLJR Just a couple more if you are so inclined. Thank you again for your time. Respectfully RM
Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon Church, said that the birth of Jesus was “the result of natural action” (Journal of discourses, volume 8, page 115). He also said, “When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218). In light of this, how was Jesus born of the Virgin Mary?
According to Mormonism, Jesus was the one being married to Mary and Martha at the wedding of Cana in John 2. If this is so, then why was Jesus invited to his own wedding?
If the book of Mormon is true, why have both National Geographic and the Smithsonian Institute rejected it as being archaeologically reliable?
Why is it that there have been no archaeological discoveries at all that demonstrate what Joseph Smith said is “reformed Egyptian”?
Why does the book of Mormon contain the word “church” in 1 Nephi 14:3, 9, 10, 12 which was set around 600 BC, yet the word church was not used until the time of Jesus (Matt. 16:18)?
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How about I state that Jehovah is not a name of God? It is a Western attempt at pronouncing the name of God considered so holy that not even the Jews during Moses’s time would speak it.
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rom116,
God has perfectly preserved His Word in the Bible..
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. (Ex 6:3)
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. (Ps 83:18)
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. (Isa 12:2)
Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: (Isa 26:4)
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“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (Joh 14:6)
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r.m.,
Hey, thanks!
Now I know why hth showed up here.
Here he’ll hear about the TRUE Jesus Christ.
Once regenerated down the way, he’ll learn the fact surrounding, “cometh unto the Father”.
That’ll be great.
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This article is a great disappointment.
Beck calls himself a Mormon. I grew up in a Mormon sect called the RLDS. If you pay attention to the words Beck uses you will find they are Mormon phrases i.e. how he uses the atonement.
If the basis for whether or not to accept someone as a Christian is this –
Then we could say that of many Mormons, especially, those who should know the doctrines of their own religion best. That is, the ones who ride around in the heat no bicycles wearing ties as they go door-to-door spreading their religion.
I’ve pointed out in my own posts that even Joseph Smith did not accept the doctrines of his day which would have been the same doctrines Christians believe today.
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See http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16329 for Alan Keyes disappointment with “Glenn Beck’s hollow piety”, the beginning of an article found at WorldNetDaily, but the first link contains some response at Keyes’ LoyaltoLiberty.com blog.
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Maybe Mormons are just works oriented, like the rest of the Arminians and they are not as different the rest of the Calvinists would like to think. Listening is gift, thanks Andree for teaching us to listen, really listen.
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