Marketing the ‘religion of peace’
I’m trying to sort out why elites on the political left are going out of their way to make the rest of us feel good about Islam.
There is National Public Radio, which fired Juan Williams for saying what every blessed one of us feels, which is that he gets nervous when he sees someone on a plane dressed in traditional Muslim garb.
In a related story, we have Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar storming off the set of The View after Bill O’Reilly blamed the 9/11 attacks on Muslims (as if what really animated the killers was their shared dislike of tall buildings).
Then there is foreign policy expert John Feffer, writing for CBS, who explains that judging Islam by the news headlines is like evaluating Christianity based on the words of Ann Coulter. He employs a well-worn style of minimization:
“Yes, certain Muslim fundamentalists have been responsible for terrorist attacks, certain fantasists about a ‘global caliphate’ continue to plot attacks on perceived enemies, and certain groups like Afghanistan’s Taliban and Somalia’s al-Shabaab practice medieval versions of the religion. But Islamophobes confuse these small parts with the whole and then see terrorist jihad under every Islamic pillow.”
“Islamophobes” would be people like me, who believe that the pattern of heinous violence in the name of Islam—stretching from burning towers in New York City to riots and murders in Europe to bombings of schoolchildren in the Middle East to systematic killings in Russia, India, Pakistan, Malaysia, and Indonesia—suggests a bit more of a pattern than Feffer wants to acknowledge, all of it directly traceable to a religion whose teachings promote violence against nonbelievers.
In situations like this I apply a simple thought experiment: If these worldwide crimes were committed by Presbyterians claiming to act in the name of John Calvin, would CBS tell us they’re just a few isolated incidents, that Calvinism represents no threat to the fabric of liberty, and that people who think otherwise are small-minded Calvinphobes?
And while you’re chuckling at that thought, consider President Obama’s recent speech in Muslim-dominated Indonesia, praising it for its religious tolerance. Terry Mattingly helpfully dissected The New York Times‘ coverage:
“. . . did anyone see any mainstream coverage that mentioned that this nation’s heritage of tolerance is under violent attack? Did anyone read about the ‘white riders’? About kidnappings? Beheadings? The persecution and killing of, for lack of a better word, ‘moderate’ Muslims, as well as members of religious minorities?”
The Times alluded to rising Muslim violence in Indonesia, Mattingly noted, but doesn’t blame “the religion of peace.” (And really, can anyone think of a marketing slogan that has been more unquestioningly embraced by otherwise cynical intellectuals than this one?) The cause of this violence, one learns in the faithfully secular Times, is the rise of religion in Indonesia.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why people otherwise predisposed to dislike all religion want to go out of their way to give Islam a pass. Do they worry that speaking plainly will make Christianity look good in comparison? Is it that so many Islamofascists have non-European ethnicity, and liberal elites are conditioned to view pigmentation as evidence of virtue?
Perhaps it’s simply that they instinctively embrace any enemy of the people they perceive as their enemies, namely cultural conservatives and Christians.

















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back to top132 Comments to “Marketing the ‘religion of peace’”
I have wondered the same thing. What happened to the almost universal outrage among liberals, during the 1980’s and early 1990’s, over Muslim oppression of women and homosexuals? Now that Christians have taken up the cause of opposing Muslim oppression and Muslim violence, it is fashionable for liberals to defend Islam and Muslims to the hilt. The one thing that the cannot do is agree, in any way, shape, or form, with Christians.
Besides, to admit that Islam has some inherent problems that lead to violence and oppression is to also admit that Christianity is NOT the biggest force for evil in the world.
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You don’t think fear and blackmail is at the bottom of it?
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Michelle, yes, I think often those things are the motivating factors. Nobody wants to be bombed or beheaded.
The history of the world, however, shows that appeasement does not work. It causes terroristic people to lose all respect for you and emboldens them to attack you, since you show yourself weak.
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Muslims, wherever they are, treat women like dirt. They won’t educate their children. They amputate and stone as punishment. And those ARE the moderates.
I think the reason they give it a pass when they don’t like Christianity because they can’t imagine that stuff happening to them right here in the USA. In a letter to the editor in either my Star Ledger or the NYTimes, the head of some Arab group said the burning of the Koran by a worker is hate speech and that it inhibits his ability to practice his religion. Absolutely NO comprehension that free speech includes speech we don’t like. He urged the changing of the free speech standard. This appeals to leftys who want to control everything. Never are they called to account for the stonings, the amputations, the canings, etc., etc.
But I think Kyle hits the nail on the head with his last paragraph.
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Well, a president has the best security, so if anyone should be speaking out against the stonings and amputations, it should be Obama.
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And if he did, we’d be paying a lot more for gas.
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NJL, which is why we should not have let ourselves become so dependent on foreign oil.
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Agreed, and I’d be willing to sacrifice. I’d also be willing to open my mouth if I were president, bully pulpit and all, but this guy is too busy selling us down the river.
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Tony poses a question that I have always wondered about and never heard an answer to from the liberal perspective — I do hope some of our friends here of the more liberal persuasion will join this discussion.
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Tony,
Or, maybe it’s because George Soros actually owns almost all of the major media outlets.
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My thought is that liberals are deeply committed to the central “truth” of the moral equivalency of all religion (and cultures). This is elevated from realizing that people tend to favor their own culture and elevate non-moral differences to a judgement of right and wrong (even on something so stupid as how to pronounce a certain word or whether one should call carbonated beverages “pop” “soda” “coke” or “fizzy drinks”).
So, they reason that anytime people see the “other” side as being wrong or immoral is merely this sort of “antipathy toward those that are not like them” that Obama talked about. Cultural and religious relativism forces them to say that every religion is really just as “good” as any other religion. After all, it’s not like any of them is actually true (because we couldn’t actually know truth anyway – so postmodernism says).
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Second, don’t see “liberals” as a unified group that agree with what any other “liberal” says. Most liberals aren’t “anti-religious” in the sense of believing that “religion is evil”. There are a few outspoken members of the left that believe that, but the more “mainline” belief is that all religions are mostly good – but get twisted by some nut jobs to justify horrible things. We see that the case with “Christian” nut jobs who bomb abortion clinics. They don’t see any distinction between those and the jihadists – and think any analysis of how often these “nut jobs” strike is merely splitting hairs (although obviously, it is a HUGE numerical and percentage-based difference). So, because they see “religion” as always peaceful unless a crazy person twists it, they refuse to look at evidence to the contrary. This is a worldview presupposition that they fit pieces of evidence into – not a conclusion drawn from examining the particulars.
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And what is the central truth, SeanMT? That amputation is a good thing? That’s an eternal truth? How about spousal rape? Is that an eternal truth, too? This horrid religion isn’t followed only by jihadis. This is the basic Muslim way of life. They aren’t crazy, they are barbaric. And liberals accept that about them and want to promote it.
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“Cultural and religious relativism forces them …”
No. The liberals came up with the idea of relativism, and they won’t revisit it. They aren’t forced to think that way at all. They should not get a pass because they are too stupid to open their eyes.
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America is about to be pelted with a barrage of well financed ads from the American Humanist Association which speak against religion, but especially against that backward misogynistic religion of oppression called Christianity.
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Tony – good que$tion.
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Yeah, well Xion, when they’re finished with Christianity, what’s waiting in the wings is Islam, and it’s gonna turn and rend them.
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“My thought is that liberals are deeply committed to the central “truth” of the moral equivalency of all religion (and cultures).
Except for Evangelical Christians who have often been declared wrong and immoral by the left. This is especially true of issues like homosexuality, women’s right and religious tolerance. Issues that Islam holds a much more extreme view.
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I’ve quoted this verse before:
“But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed.” Jude 10 RSV
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Re. the Humanist Campaign: If you look far enough, they do not only pair Bible verses with humanist sayings, but they also pair Islamic scripture with contradictory humanist sayings.
Apparently, for this campaign, neither Christianity nor Islam is much tolerated.
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I don’t think we should look for a demon behind every rock or try to name the Anti-Christ or the day Christ is coming back but it sure seems like we could be seeing the precursors of the “Beast” (an anti-christian state led by one person)and the “False Prophet” (one religion that promotes the Beast and kills all who oppose it). My hope is not in the new Republican congress but in Christ and His grace which will enable us to persevere to the end. Maranatha!
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It’s called a moral coma. Here are five factors I see:
1. The left operates on feelings to the general subordination or exclusion of thought. Morality is strictly a matter of feelings.
2. The left cannot begin to acknowledge that moral evil is actually a reality in the universe. Taking evil seriously does not feel so good and thus is ruled out as an option.
3. There is an old saying that affirms that those wo are cruel to the kind tend to also be kind to the cruel. And they feel self-righteous about being kind to the cruel–presuming it will transform them and make them nice like they were born to be.
4. The leftist/relativist belief in the moral equivalency of all religions and cultures is also a huge factor.
5. The left is largely (and worshipfully) role-playing Ghandi’s strategy with the British, naively thinking it will work with Islamists.
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I agree entirely with the writer’s premise here.
On a side note, I think it’s great that Presbyterians haven’t completely embraced John Calvin’s example.
Binding a man with his writings to his chest and lighting him on fire wouldn’t be very good press for the Presb. church.
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The Volokh Conspiracy is reporting that a Christian woman in Pakistan has been given the death penalty for anti-Mohammed remarks, blasphemy.
Our tax dollars at work.
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Another take:
The left tends to operate on the following paradigm: Whoever is the most angry gets the most respect.
The seed for this trend comes from at least an entire generation of victimology (taught in our finest schools and pounded into our heads by our media). People found that posturing as a victim gets you a lot in compassionate America–you get sympathy, respect, rights and few responsibilities. Thus, anger became a meal ticket. The left offers too much automatic respect and credence to anger. And Islam is angry.
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As one Volokh poster calls the Religion of Peace — a/k/a the Religion of Perpetual Outrage.
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I don’t know that elites feel any great warmth toward Muslims. But elites don’t generally feel the need to wear their opinions on their shirtsleeves. Even if they don’t like something, they’re more likely to praise it publicly while privately undermining it.
I realize that such nuance is lost on the populist classes.
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That sounds very elitist, RSD.
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Even if they don’t like it, they praise it? Does that make sense?
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#26 RSD
“I realize that such nuance is lost on the populist classes.”
I call it mendacity.
I also call it stupid, lame.
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I also find the political left is oppositional. They oppose things just because. Not for any discernible reason, just because. Rarely do they agree. About anything!
Let me explain myself. I am a member of the stupid class.
They are members of the … class.
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As ‘modern’ Americans, we tend to be totally blind to world history made as recently as the last decade and century. The slaughter of hundreds of thousands of East Timorese (largely Christians) by Indonesian Muslims in the late 1990s before the embarrassed west finally forced the UN to intervene is a bit of history that Obama certainly won’t speak of this trip as he addresses ‘peaceful’ Indonesian Muslims. During the late 1800s and the first two decades of the 20th century, Turkish Muslims murdered more than two million Christians (mostly Armenian) under the protection of a ‘liberal’ German press that served as the eyes of the west in Istanbul as Germany allied with the Turks in leading the forces of darkness in WWI. Historical naivete and blindness to the Truth is dangerous Kool-Aid, indeed!
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RSD: I don’t know what “elites” are, except that it seems every time a conservative wants to portray liberals as out of touch, it’s the word they reach for.
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Conan, we reach for that word because it fits perfectly. What else do you call people who regard themselves as the only ones who can “save” the ignorant masses by forcing policies on them for their own good? What do you call people who condemn a whole group of decent Americans by saying that they live in “fly-over” country or, as Katie Couric’s people recently said, calling them the “great unwashed”?
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Oh, I can do this one: elite: singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence
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I agree with most of what has been said about liberal elitists, but I think that it’s a mistake to think that only liberals are anti-Christian. Ayn Rand, America’s promulgater of Friedrich Nietzsche’s philosopy, was vehemently anti-christian, among Americans, probably the most anti-christian writer of the 20th century. Yet she has many followers among right-wingers, especially among those of a Libertarian stripe, who are well-represented among the Tea Party, many of whom express her ideas almost in her own words, usually without citing her as their source. Her magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged, is flying off the bookshelves. If you doubt this, just google “Ayn Rand and the Tea Party” and “Atlas Shrugged sales.”
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#36 Alfred Lindh, you are correct, but Ayn Rand’s books aren’t primarily about religion. I read lots of atheistic philosophy because it makes me think and challenges my world view. It helps me to correct my thinking about my own faith which ends up being stronger in the end.
For example, Freud said that God didn’t create man, but man created God who is a subconscious Father figure brought over from childhood. This caused me to acknowledge that while the statement is fundamentally incorrect, our tendency is to form an image of God in our minds and worship that image as described in Romans 1. Our finite view of the infinite God must be continually renewed and even then is far from perfect.
I enjoyed both Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead even though I disagreed on points. These books help people to think about the ultimate end of socialism. It is a parasitic system that feeds off of productive workers and ultimately destroys productivity. Her father’s business was confiscated by the Bolshaviks, so she knew something about the struggle between liberty and socialism.
As for Ayn Rand herself, she had many flaws. She was a self-absorbed adulterous atheist who caused enormous sorrow for her husband who remained faithful. She fancied herself as the created of a new philosophy “Objectivism”, but it was just the old philosophy of existentialism with a purpose. The purpose she added was to “Be all you can be”. Nothing wrong with that.
What I find fascinating about her is that while she despised Christianity, she spoke in religious terms and promoted many Christian ideals while speaking against it. This is typical for atheists. For example, a Christian would say, “Be all God would have you to be”.
She expresses her views on Christianity in John Galt’s speech. Her entire theme is the individual vs. the state. She views religion as a tool of the state. She confuses the concept of self-sacrifice with the goals of collectivism, i.e. to sacrifice your own life for the good of the state. Self-sacrifice, she argues, is contrary to individualism. That is true in the ultimate sense, but it has nothing to do with the state whose powers should be limited according to conservative Christians.
She laments that Adam was only good when he obeyed the authority like a self-sacrificing mindless automaton. Acquiring knowledge for himself and exercising his free will was considered evil and caused the Fall of Man. Her view of the ultimate man is Adam using his mind to its fullest capacity to achieve all that he possibly can for his own enjoyment. Perhaps Nimrod fits that description. I won’t go on. You can untangle that for yourselves.
What is more fun than unraveling these twisted knots from atheists? I find few things more enjoyable. In the end I am better for it and my faith is stronger for having gone through these mental exercises. That is also the reason I enjoy WMB.
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@Tony: A higher-than-average amount of terrorist acts are committed by Muslims. This may be due to some theological aspects of Islam. The fact remains, however, that the vast majority of Muslims are not violent terrorists. So, to be nervous about a given Muslim on a plane (and especially one dressed in traditional garb) is irrational. The term “Islamaphobe” seems fairly apt given a phobia describes an irrational fear.
@NJL: Muslims, wherever they are, treat women like dirt. They won’t educate their children. They amputate and stone as punishment. And those ARE the moderates.
False, false and false.
@Rondu: Or, maybe it’s because George Soros actually owns almost all of the major media outlets.
Except the ones owned by Rupert Murdoch, right? Actually, does Soros own any major media outlets?
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Do you read the news? I do. In Pakistan, they just sentenced a woman for being a Christian and touching the water bucket. In Iran, they have sentenced a woman to be stoned.
You are in DENIAL, Buddyglass, and it is people like you who keep defending this barbarism that keep terrorism alive.
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NJL,
Buddy’s view sounds like the feminist view of how muslims treat their women. It’s sad that they even attempt to justify the behavior.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/11/the_feminist_politics_of_islam.html
“Abu-Lughod opposed the “concept of clear-cut divisions between cultures, which she viewed as a form of imprisoning rural and immigrant communities,” and suggested that focusing on “honor crimes” allowed “scholars and activists to ignore important contexts for violence against women: social tensions; political conflicts; forms of racial, class, and ethnic discrimination; religious movements; government policing and surveillance; and military intervention.”
“Abu-Lughod suggests that there are many reasons that a woman might veil — and, if she’s talking about hijab (a headscarf), I can agree with her. However, wearing a face- and body-covering that obscures identity, peripheral vision, and all normal social interaction — that functions, in effect, like a sensory deprivation isolation chamber — is not an empowered “feminist” choice or even a feminist way of rejecting sexual objectification. The growing Islamist pressure to veil is enormous, and women fear being beaten, never obtaining a husband, or being divorced, jailed, or even killed for their failure to do so. Face- and body-covering is a forced choice, not a free one. Muslim girls and women are punished, and sometimes murdered, for refusing to wear a face veil.”
“To be fair, Abu-Lughod has also published some interesting work about Muslim women in the Middle East, and about Bedouin women in particular, including Writing Women’s Worlds: Bedouin Stories. However, Abu-Lughod, like her Columbia University colleague Gayatri Spivak, views a Western-style fight for women’s rights in the Muslim world as a dangerous diversion. In Remaking Women. Feminism and Modernity In The Middle East, Abu-Lughod criticizes Western “colonial feminism” as attempting to undermine local cultures and recommends that we continue to focus mainly on the “colonial enterprise.” Why? Perhaps as a way of reminding Western thinkers — heirs to the colonial adventure — that, given their ancestors’ past crimes, they dare not feel “superior” to the Islamic world, and above all, they dare not intervene to free Muslim prisoners from Muslim tyrants, jailers, and murderers. Indeed, Abu-Lughod is quoted in Beirut as saying that: “the easily sensationalized category [of honor killing] has the political effect of stigmatizing Muslim societies.”
They believe that violence against women is tolerable in certain contexts. How pathetic. Very sad.
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Woodleif
for saying what every blessed one of us feels, which is that he gets nervous when he sees someone on a plane dressed in traditional Muslim garb.
Actually, given racial profiling I’m pretty certain these gentlemen would have gotten the once over before they entered the plane. Its the “white” converts or those of Balkan/Caucasus mountain heritage you need to be worried about … if Muslims scare you.
we have Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar storming off the set of The View after Bill O’Reilly blamed the 9/11 attacks on Muslims
saw that, he goaded them and they walked right into it. Adults acting stupid …. all of them … does anyone really think any of these three have enough brain cells in working order?
If these worldwide crimes were committed by Presbyterians claiming to act in the name of John Calvin, would CBS tell us they’re just a few isolated incidents, that Calvinism represents no threat to the fabric of liberty, and that people who think otherwise are small-minded Calvinphobes?
Its a bad analogy or thought experiment. Calvinism is more mainstream than Muslims terrorists. An accurate analogy doesn’t have to be a thought experiment. Simply put, the CBS or any other media does view Timothy McVeigh, Fred Phelps, etc as isolated incidents and are not reporting them as a Christian threat to the fabric of liberty.
Similar to Christianity is not a monolithic faith and there are hundreds of sects in each religion and on the extremes these groups don’t represent either religion.
consider President Obama’s recent speech in Muslim-dominated Indonesia, praising it for its religious tolerance.
during Obama’s youth Indonesia did and may still represent one of the more tolerant streams of Islam. In recent years, Islam and ethnicity have become conflated in the numerous ethnic disputes within Indonesia. Arguing that these disputes are solely religious in nature is quite simplistic similar to labeling the Protestant-Catholic divide in N. Ireland as a religious dispute ignoring the class and ethnic dimensions of the dispute.
I can’t understand why people otherwise predisposed to dislike all religion want to go out of their way to give Islam a pass. Do they worry that speaking plainly will make Christianity look good in comparison?
Mainstream Christianity does look good in comparison and in fact it looks good in comparison to mainstream Islam. However, I’m quite sure this is more cultural rather than the nature of either religion. Two centuries of secular-humanism has had a positive impact on the West in smoothing out cultural, religious and nationalist dispute although we still have a ways to go. The role of women is one difference that I am becoming convinced is one of the greater problems facing Arab/Islamic culture.
Is it that so many Islamofascists have non-European ethnicity, and liberal elites are conditioned to view pigmentation as evidence of virtue?
I think Tony is revealing his own crude stereotypes in this comment.
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And I posted this earlier this week, and said it should be required reading. A week in the news for the religion of peace. It’s quite telling. This is the monster that libs won’t acknowledge is sitting in the room.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/11/apocalypse_denial_now_a_week_o.html
“Reading the headlines as a sort of surreal poem, I’m staggered by the global reach of Islamic aggression. All of Europe trembles in its grip; across America, Atlanta bus stations and Amtrak train lines shiver with vulnerability; in Africa, murdered Christians fall in bloody heaps to the ground; in Canada, Russia, Indonesia, and the Maldives, turmoil and trouble abound; and the entire Middle East reeks of carnage.”
Toward the bottom of the page you’ll see 100 or so headlines from the week. Peaceful religion? Not so much.
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Kyle #1
What happened to the almost universal outrage among liberals, during the 1980’s and early 1990’s, over Muslim oppression of women and homosexuals? Now that Christians have taken up the cause of opposing Muslim oppression and Muslim violence, it is fashionable for liberals to defend Islam and Muslims to the hilt.
I think anti-war sentiments overwhelmed other sentiments. However, I don’t think “liberals” defend Islam to the hilt — its very guarded but due to their anti-war sentiments, their conservative opponents often paint them as supportive of Islam.
Michelle
You don’t think fear and blackmail is at the bottom of it?
No, I think the conservative support for war and their criticism of anything remotely Islamic is based on a pervasive culture of fear that grips the American media.
Kyle
The history of the world, however, shows that appeasement does not work.
Depends. Munich gave appeasement or compromise a bad name. However, US forces leaving Saudi Arabia could be considered a sensible policy decision designed to remove motivation for suicide bombers as opposed to appeasing terrorists.
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NJL
Muslims, wherever they are, treat women like dirt.
Muslim man in general do treat women as lessors. For some its in the traditional sense of patriarchal duty — not much differnt than some who take Paul’s exhortation to Timothy literally. And then there are some who take advantage of a patriarchal culture to treat women like dirt. In a patriarchal culture, the opportunity is greater to abuse women. However, patriarchal culture is not exclusively Muslim.
They won’t educate their children.
As someone whose classroom is half Muslim, I’d have to say that is false. Grade seven teachers rarely have perfect attendance on parent teacher interviews but ALL my Muslim parents attend and they are very interested in their children’s education, male or female.
They amputate and stone as punishment. And those ARE the moderates.
Actually, those aren’t the moderate ones. Turks and Bengalis don’t do this neither do Indonesians or African Arabs. For the most part, its countries that are traditional and patriarchal (with the exception of Iran — whose Islamic Revolution is a complete reversal of modern Persian history)
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In a letter to the editor in either my Star Ledger or the NYTimes, the head of some Arab group said the burning of the Koran by a worker is hate speech and that it inhibits his ability to practice his religion.
In this I agree with NJL — there’s been a move by Arab nations to have the UN declare “religious blasphemy” as hate speech that impediments religious freedom. In this, they simply don’t “get it”
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#25 Joel
When I read right wing/Christian news from America, I see victimology is alive and well on both sides of the political spectrum.
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@NJL: Do you read the news?
Yes.
@NJL: I do.
Okay. But can you place it in a proper context? Apparently not.
@NJL: You are in DENIAL, Buddyglass, and it is people like you who keep defending this barbarism that keep terrorism alive.
I do not defend what happened to that woman in Pakistan. It’s tragic. However, unlike you, I do not generalize from incidents such that to conclude that all Muslims are guilty of the same sort of barbarism.
@NJL: Buddy’s view sounds like the feminist view of how muslims treat their women. It’s sad that they even attempt to justify the behavior.
Very few feminists that I’ve read (and by “very few” I mean “none”, though I’m not going to assume there aren’t any) would defend the mistreatment of women at the hands of a Muslim.
They would defend a woman’s right to, say, willingly wear a burqa or hijab, and I would join them, but they do not generally support violence toward women or the “second class citizen” status of women in most heavily-Muslim countries.
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AJ and NJL
some members of the academic left do need to get out more often. Patriarchy is indeed one of the greatest problems in Arab society and the west needs to push for female education and political rights. In other words, some good old fashioned secular humanism might do them some good.
The reversal and compromises of some of the more leftist and secular regimes has eroded women’s rights in Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt and Algeria. Its ironic that the groups who are the most “islamicphobic” were the greatest supporters of overthrowing a secular Arab regime and replacing it with a constitution entrenching Islam as the national religion.
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Assigning blame is the characteristic vice of social conservatives, TONY. You get many political advantages over liberals by playing prosecutor (i.e., the votes of old whites), but you can’t avoid the costs (votes of arabs, blacks, and chicanos).
Prosecuting takes a personal toll on the prosecutor. The service to truth and justice may be admirable, but the prosecutor becomes personally unattractive. Liberals try to increase your burden of proof so that people get a long look at you, doing your work of blaming. This work tends to make people dislike your habits of characterization and judgment.
Cheer up. Liberals have vices too, which conservatives are very good at making us pay for.
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Yes, I can put it in proper context. The only way to get rid of cancer is to kill it. The way those people live in those countries needs an enormous light shone on it. Everyone, certainly every politician, in the West is too gutless to represent what WE believe in — equality, opportunity, fundamental fairness. And as far as I am concerned, anyone who will not speak against the way those people run their so-called “judicial” systems, are just as gutless. Instead of cowtowing to terrorists, put their countries on notice that if they don’t learn to live like decent people, they aren’t welcome in the West. It should be that simple, and if people had spines, they would say so. Hold those countries accountable.
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And assigning blame isn’t the problem. The problem is the unwillingness to take responsibility and the inability to see things as they are. We have a right to call a barbaric system barbaric, and we have a right to tell them NOT to bring it here. In fact, we have a DUTY to ensure that they don’t bring it here.
As Mother would have said, clean it up. And that’s what they should do. Clean up their act.
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Buddy: Just saying on a blog that this is “tragic” is not enough. You cowtow, you make excuses. It happens every day in those countries, and that’s acceptable to you, tragic as it may be. You won’t hold them accountable, you won’t put a price of them changing. Instead, you want to smoothe it all over and tell them that they aren’t barbarians.
They should be forced to face what they are and suffer severe consequences for not doing so.
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A burqa makes you less than a second class citizen, it denies a woman an identity. Anyone who supports that … thing … does not believe in freedom.
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Every last one of those countries uses stoning, amputation, caning, beheading in its criminal justice system. Do NOT apply the word MODERATE to ANY of them. They are barbaric countries, plain and simple, and making nicey-nice with the ones who comes here and try to tell us they are good people, is not the way to solve this problem.
Every last one of them should be made to feel guilty for allowing that barbarism to exist. And anyone who makes apologies for them deserves to live under those regimes — over there.
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Which predominately Muslim country would you like to live in as a woman or a gay man.
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#50 NJL
Everyone, certainly every politician, in the West is too gutless to represent what WE believe in — equality, opportunity, fundamental fairness.
So I imagine you are in favour of Swedish style social democracy — less income inequality, greater equality of opportunity, greater income mobility and class/professional mobility, etc.
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Every last one of those countries uses stoning, amputation, caning, beheading in its criminal justice system. Do NOT apply the word MODERATE to ANY of them.
Stoning is practised in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Sudan and Somalia. Six countries too many but still not every last one.
amputation is practiced in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria, Iran, Sudan, and some other Islamic countries. It is considered acceptable in the Koran. However, its also acceptable in the OT but I don’t think the Israeli’s practice it. Hence I’m quite sure Turkey, Bangladesh and others don’t practice it.
Caning is widely used throughout the world and just not in Islamic countries. It was widely used throughout the English speaking world until the 1980s as punishment in the school system. Its still legal in Commonwealth countries such as Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, and even private schools in Australia. In fact, corporeal punishment whether caning or the strap is still permitted in the southern and Midwestern states.
Judicial caning is quite common in Africa including non-Islamic coutnries such as Zimbabwe, Botswana along with more Muslim areas such as Tanzania or Nigeria — all of which were English colonies. And in the Caribbean caning is also practiced in former British colonies.
As for beheadings, its a method of execution. Outside of China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and maybe Yemen, capital punishment is practiced more often in the US than elsewhere. Turkey and the Central Asian muslim republics have banned any type of execution. Other Islamic states such as Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria have not used it in decades.
To summarize you vastly overstated and overgeneralized your claim and in fact you’re just plain wrong in some cases.
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kbells
none but I also wouldn’t want to be gay in southern Africa either so I’m not sure whats the point ….
I don’t make excuses for Islamic countries but nor do I think cruelty and human rights abuse are a unique Islamic problem.
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@Kbells: Which predominately Muslim country would you like to live in as a woman or a gay man.
I’ll go with Albania as a gay man and Turkey as a woman.
@NJL: Hold those countries accountable.
Meaning what exactly?
@NJL: We have a right to call a barbaric system barbaric, and we have a right to tell them NOT to bring it here. In fact, we have a DUTY to ensure that they don’t bring it here.
Which is exactly how some folks feel about certain strains of evangelical Christianity that subordinate women to men in the contexts of home and church.
@NJL: Anyone who supports that … thing … does not believe in freedom.
Freedom: “the power to determine action without restraint.” Even if that action is “wearing a burqa”. Those who would prohibit the practice are the true enemies of freedom.
@NJL: Every last one of those countries uses stoning, amputation, caning, beheading in its criminal justice system.
False. Though, you should perhaps not be so quick to criticize amputation and stoning.
@NJL: making nicey-nice with the ones who comes here and try to tell us they are good people
Do you know any Muslims?
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#38 Buddy. HRW #57 disproves your “false, false, false”.
#47 Buddy ” I do not generalize from incidents such that to conclude that all Muslims are guilty of the same sort of barbarism.”
Straw man alert. No one concludes that all Muslims are guilty. However, occasionally Muslims do what the Koran says and act like Muhammad. This involves highway robbery, beheading infidels, torture, murder, terrorism and so on.
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#41 HRW “Two centuries of secular-humanism has had a positive impact on the West”
That’s ridiculous. Aren’t you a history major? I am always shocked at how you misrepresent history. That must be the academic warp effect. More people were slaughtered in the name of secular humanism than all religions combined.
#57 HRW “However, it’s [amputation] also acceptable in the OT but I don’t think the Israeli’s practice it.”
FALSE. Provide a verse if you can. You can’t because there are none.
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Buddy Glass, anyone who would say that only men can be pastors and that men are to love their wives and women submit to/respect their husbands is a “barbaric” system truly doesn’t understand the word “barbaric.” I’ll take being treated with respect (as godly men do) over being seen as a potential sex object any day. And I like the idea of gentlemen coming alongside women when women need help, rather than women having to fight to pretend to be equal with men (in spite of the obvious fact that we’re different, not interchangeable).
Or am I as a woman simply too dumb to know when I’m really oppressed?
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#61
I wondered if anyone would jump all over my statement. Obviously I mean classical liberal humanism that arose from the Enlightenment and English liberalism (ie Locke and Smith). I always felt that Fascism and Communism (as practiced by the USSR) demanded an adherence far too similar to a religious faith.
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I have never hesitated to tell a muslim that I do not believe Allah is God. I have never hesitated to tell a muslim that Jesus Christ fulfilled the promises of the OT. I’m sorry that you are still using that stupid ploy of citing OT Jewish law to a Christian, but that’s your ignorance, your problem. Christianity is the fulfillment of the promises of Judaism. Jesus accomplished everything necessary for salvation on the cross. There is no need for Mohammed.
While I personally did not do anything at abu Ghraib prison, those things were done by my countrymen. We are responsible, and we were — at least most of us — were outraged and disgusted by what we saw. We were public about that disgust and we went after the perpetrators. Muslim countries engage in that barbaric behavior on a daily basis and subject their own people and especially Christians to that barbarism. But you keep defending it.
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I will not back down about the burqa. It robs a woman of her identity and her freedom. As the old judge would say “you are wrong.”
Running into this sort of idiocy actually makes me ill. Not only do we have to fight barbaric muslims, but we have to fight their barbaric leftist supporters, too. But you keep telling them that the suppression of half of their population is a good thing. You keep defending it. It’s pure stupidity, but you go for it.
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“I’ll go with Albania as a gay man and Turkey as a woman.”
Woould you prefer these over America, Canada or Western Europe.
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@Xion: #38 Buddy. HRW #57 disproves your “false, false, false”.
Not true. He pretty much sums up exactly why I said that. Those practices are not universal in Muslim countries, and they are not the hallmark of “the moderates”.
@Xion: Straw man alert. No one concludes that all Muslims are guilty.
See NJLawyer’s comments from #4 that I quoted in #38. Also her comments from #13:
How about spousal rape? [...] This is the basic Muslim way of life. They [all Muslims] aren’t crazy, they [all Muslims] are barbaric.
Portions in brackets are mine. She certainly seems to paint all Muslims with a single brush.
@CherylD: Or am I as a woman simply too dumb to know when I’m really oppressed?
That’s the thing. You’re not oppressed. Why? Because you submit to these restrictions voluntarily; they’re not imposed on you by force of law. It’s hard to argue that for a Christian woman to voluntarily submit to her husband’s will and also to dress modestly in a counter-cultural way is totally okay, whereas for a Muslim woman to voluntarily wear the hijab or burqa should be prohibited by law.
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I agree that the hijab or burqa shouldn’t be prohibited by law, and I have heard that some women like them. (I do think that some laws regarding them may be reasonable–for instance, that a driver’s license photo must show the face or she can’t get a license, and that some security situations may require showing her face.)
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65 NJL — agreed
Some of my female students wear hajibs which doesn’t bother me the slightest — its more or less a scarf. However, when one jokingly turned her hajib into a niqab (only eyes are visible) I reprimanded her. Its difficult for me to perceive understand if I can barely see the eyes.
A burqa is wrong — even if a woman chooses to wear one it still is a sign of cultural oppression and patriarchy. At a certain point and this is one of them its entirely appropriate to assert that my culture is better. For Islamic societies (and others) to be dragged into modernity (which would make religious terrorism less likely) women need to be emancipated.
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HRW, as long as women’s “emancipation” doesn’t mean American-style feminism. No thanks. The idea that somehow it is “freeing” for women to compete with men and try to be men is preposterous. It’s bad for men, it’s bad for women, it’s bad for families, and it’s bad for culture. Women end up unprotected, sexually exploited, losing the contest with men in areas where men generally do better, and losing out in areas where women are supposed to excel (e.g., motherhood no longer being valuable).
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#63 HRW “I wondered if anyone would jump all over my statement. Obviously I mean classical liberal humanism that arose from the Enlightenment and English liberalism (ie Locke and Smith)”
Oh, with that I agree! Most people here are classical liberals, now called conservatives. Modern liberals are something quite different indeed.
Here is a history question for you. Did modern liberalism, i.e. big government statism appear in history prior to the 19th century or is it unique to our time?
I suppose Utopian ideals appeared as far back as the Greek empire, but communism, socialism and other forms of totalitarianism designed to impose a perfect society by force seem unique to the 19th and 20th centuries.
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big gov’t statism is not unique to our time in fact its pretty much the standard since big gov’t was needed to coordinate pyramid building. The idea of limited gov’t, individual freedoms, etc is fairly unique especially in larger political units.
Utopianiam as a political goal is a more modern ideal. Ironically its an outgrowth of classical liberalism. The idea that man can improve his world via reason can lead to not so “liberal” ideas of Five Year Plans etc.
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Secular leftists often go out of their way to give Islam a pass (even its harsher side) because they too often lack a moral compass. Where conservatives apply ethics and morality, liberals apply personal feelings. Plus, multiculturalism displaces their logic.
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Cheryl its not an either/or decision. When women have the same classical liberal rights as men does not necessarily mean women will become men but it does give women more options as opposed to patriarchy or bust. For example, micro-lending in the third world empowered women to start their own business, become community leaders, etc. yet they still are women.
Most patriarchal societies are also honour based — which more often than not is a more violent society and a more conformist one. Both conformity and violence are barriers to the Arab/Islamic world becoming more open to other cultures. Hence the need to diminish the patriarchy.
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73 Wow that’s quite the conclusion now where’s the evidence.
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#72 HRW I agree with that.
Modern liberalism appears to be a merger between big government statism and Utopianism, quite the opposite of Locke and Rousseau and the limited government ideals of America’s founders.
Improving the world is a worthy goal. Where modern liberal Utopians like Obama, Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, etc. get it wrong is that it is done by laws enforced at the end of a gun. It hardly seems like an improvement when millions are killed or sent to gulags or shot for trying to escape.
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@Xion: “Most people here are classical liberals, now called conservatives.”
Yeah. No. Most WMB posters are not classical liberals or else they’d support…you know…more liberty. They wouldn’t, for instance, be aghast at the idea of ending the prohibition of certain substances. For that matter, most who consider themselves “conservatives” also aren’t classical liberals.
I’ll cite a source you’ll be more likely to trust: Conservapedia.
According to them, classical liberalism = libertarianism. It is not the case that most WMB posters are libertarians.
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HRW, can you imagine walking down the street in a burqa? You can’t see wear you are going. It serves no practical purpose other than to deny the personhood of the individual wearing it. It’s not about modesty at all. It’s about power.
Cheryl, I am not arguing that there are no differences between men and women. There sure are, physical strength alone being one of them — which is why women wear burqas. If we had true emancipation of women in our own country, there wouldn’t be people like Erica Jong going around saying motherhood is a prison. Emancipation would mean a woman could be a SAHM or a lawyer for whatever reason and no one would care why.
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wear = where. It’s a little early.
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Spousal rape is accepted, Buddyglass. We even had a NJ judge accept it as part of the culture. He was overruled — and so should you be. You are an apologist for disgusting brutal behavior. As a society, they accept barbarism as the norm — and you make excuses for them. That’s their LAW, so yes, whether a muslim husband engages in spousal rape or not, they are all guilty because they accept it as normal in others. And so do you, and that says volumes about you.
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You are the kind of apologist who has to be exposed because you damage efforts to change them and bring them into the 21st century.
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NJL, it isn’t lack of emancipation of women that makes people like Erica Jong say motherhood is a prison; it’s her sinful rejection of who God made her to be (a woman). And no, I’m not saying every woman must be a wife and a mother, but one who is, and does everything she can not to let those roles hamper her own personal desires, is a selfish woman.
The last thing we need in America is a greater amount of feminism. Tecnically a woman can be anything she wants to be (and is capable of being) in America already . . . except that it’s getting harder and harder to be who God made her to be, a woman. We weren’t made to compete with men (and they were definitely not made to compete with us) or to live our own independent lives. Feminism has done its best to kill the feminine, and as a bonus it has largely destroyed the masculine too.
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HRW, the jury is still out on whether micro-lending to women will be a good idea in the long run. It sounds like a good idea on the surface, but I can’t help but wonder why organizations are lending to women and not men. “Empowering” women sounds like it may well be a backdoor way to take feminism into those couontries, to make women not depend on their husbands for financial support, force women into business, and in general make women independent of their husbands. It also may probably inevitably drive up prices and make those two-income households necessary for a family (like many believe two-income households to be in America . . . only more so, because we’re talking about survival basics). And if it brings them out of survival living, it may well Westernize them and destroy their way of life (for better or for worse–but to be Westernized without Christ really isn’t a good thing).
So, I love the idea of buying a cow or a goat for a family and requiring them to pass on the offspring. But micro-lending specifically to women to let them start their own businesses as opposed to helping the household provider, the husband and father . . . not so much. I don’t trust the motives of those doing it.
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#77 Buddy “According to them, classical liberalism = libertarianism. It is not the case that most WMB posters are libertarians.”
That is exactly right, classical liberal = libertarian. Those are the first principles that the Tea Party stands for. I don’t know how many conservative WMB posters are libertarian. There are quite a lot of us. Maybe not most.
Christians forgot the great divide between the City of God and the city of Man, but Obama is forcing many to regain this understanding. He is the one trying to create heaven on earth through force of law which is at the end of a gun.
Our inexperienced lackluster president failed at everything on his Asia trip, much of it spent marketing Islam. Even the Muslim world rejected him. Failure is the ultimate end of statism.
I am hopeful that Christians will wise up and stop mixing politics and faith. Government is a necessary evil. Increasing its power moving in the wrong direction.
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@NJL: “Spousal rape is accepted, Buddyglass. We even had a NJ judge accept it as part of the culture.”
Accepted by whom? Not by all Muslims, and certainly not by me. Let me state unequivocally that I do not support spousal rape nor do I respect it as an aspect of any foreign culture.
You also mischaracterize the judge’s logic. While the specific religion at question was Islam, it seems likely that he would have ruled similarly even if it had been a different religion forming the basis of the defendant’s (mistaken) belief that he had absolute sexual access to his wife. I wholeheartedly disagree with the lower judge’s logic in this matter, but I don’t think he’s expressing a special preference for Islaim in particular.
Here is the state supreme court ruling that overturned his decision. The court writes:
“In the present matter, the judge found harassment and assault to have occurred, but declined to find sexual assault or criminal sexual contact, determining that the complained-of conduct occurred, but that defendant lacked the requisite criminal intent.”
@NJL: “You are an apologist for disgusting brutal behavior.”
No I’m not. Please show where I’ve excused spousal rape or other brutal behavior.
@NJL: “As a society, they accept barbarism as the norm — and you make excuses for them.”
This is true for many Muslim countries; I won’t deny it. But I deny having excused this behavior or its legality in these countries. If you’re going to persist in accusing me, please point out where I have done so.
I think it would be illustrative if you would lay out a detailed description of what you think U.S. policy should be with respect to the immigration of Muslims, the immigration of non-Muslims from majority-Muslim countries, the treatment of U.S. citizens who are currently Muslims, the treatment of U.S. citizens who covert to Islam, and U.S. foreign policy with respect to oppressive majority-Muslim nations. For instance:
1. Should Muslims (in general) be allowed to immigrate to the U.S.?
2. Should Muslims (in general) be given visas to visit the U.S. on a non-permanent basis?
3. Should non-Muslim residents from oppressive majority-Muslim countries be allowed to immigrate or obtain visas?
4. How should U.S. customs officials determine whether a given would-be immigrant or visa seeker is a Muslim or not, beyond simply asking them?
5. Should naturalized Muslim immigrants currently living in the U.S. be deported?
6. Should naturalized Muslim immigrants currently living in the U.S. be allowed to vote?
7. Should the U.S. allow trade with oppressive majority-Muslim countries or should they be the target of embargoes, with the understanding it would be a U.S.-only effort?
8. Should it be a federal crime in the U.S. to convert to and/or practice Islam?
9. Specifically with regard to #8, should it be a federal crime in the U.S. for a woman to wear a hijab?
I’d like for you to stake out exactly how you think Muslims in this country (and abroad) should be treated by the United States.
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I can solve this debate between Buddy and NJL easily. Buddy is bent out of shape by the use of the word all. Here is the answer:
All Muslims aren’t violent, but all Muslims subscribe to a religion of violence, which promotes highway robbery, terror, murder, torture and yes the denigration of women including wife beating.
All Muslims venerate the terrorist founder of their religion, a thief and an assassin who commanded the beheading of hundreds of Jewish men in front of their families.
It is true that many Muslims do not behave like Muhammad. But when they do, liberals are quick to say that it is an aberration and has nothing to do with their ideology of terror.
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Buddy, all of your questions in #85 are red herrings.
Muslims should have the same rights as anyone immigrating to America and as American citizens. No one disagrees with this.
However, the President of the United States should not be promoting this as a Religion of Peace or giving Islamic lessons from the White House. This religion promotes every evil imaginable. It is the motive behind nearly every terror attack in the world today.
Muslims have a problem with their religion and the West should stop pretending otherwise. Islam should be regarded as worse than Nazism or the KKK, because they want to die.
The only guarantee Muslims have that they will make it to heaven is so-called “martyrdom”. Their motive in this repressive religion is to die so they can have unlimited sex. This ideology is sick beyond all comprehension. So stop calling it good.
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Wow, sorry for all the typos in the posts above. I was typing from an unusual angle on those.
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You can’t subscribe to a religious belief without acquiring the qualities of that belief. If the attributes of a religion don’t appear in the believer, then the belief is disingenuous, according to teachers of religion, including Jesus.
When a muslim is non-violent, he or she subscribes to a religion that is non-violent. The only reason Evangelicals are having a problem with this truism is that they resist the concept of symbolic belief. Human religious faith isn’t often very fundamentalist, except on the margins.
When muscular Evangelicals see the soul of radical jihad, they are looking into a mirror, imho.
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NJL #78
I agree with you — its a symbol of power and domination and should be banned.
Cheryl
Microlending is an example only. Experience and evidence has demonstrated that leaving women in charge leads to improved living conditions. Evidence also demonstrates that countries in which women have equal rights do better.
I understand the idea of dual income generating inflation, in fact the only reason for increased average household income since the 1970s has been the switch to two income households. Income itsself has stagnated.
However this is not a comelling argument to not pursue female emancipation in harsh patriachial countries. The benefits — lowered conflict, the decline of “honour” ssociety, increase living standards — outweigh any drawbacks.
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Xion
76 Obama is certainly not in that list you supply
I’m afraid you misunderstand me — utiopianism is an off-shoot of classical liberalism and has nothing to do with traditional authoratarianism.
Traditional authoritarianism which you term statism is a conservative position because it does not ascribe to the notion that man is basically good and can perfect society. Fascism is a modern offshoot of this because it has very little utiopianism instead it demands that lesser man be led by better men. In fact with its emphasis of localism, cultural superiority, and natural uthierarchy — its almost medieval not utiopian.
This leads to your confusion of conservative and classical liberalism — classical liberalism leans liberatarian however conservtives do not necessarily follow classical liberalism. A cynic may note that conservartive embraces classical liberalsim only when it benefits the natural elites. In areas of morals, culture and societal control, conservatives are definitely not classical liberals.
It may be difficult for an American to grasp the difference between modern conservatives and classical liberalism because both the Democratic and Republican endorse some concepts of classical liberalism. The Republicans do have a conservative wing and the Democratic does have a more modern liberal wing but the elites from both parties are classical liberals.
Looking at European parties, the Christian Democrats are viewed as conservative but not classical liberals. In Germany, the Free Democrats are the classical liberal party while the CDU is the conservative party. The differnce between the two parties is a good starting point in understanding the practical differences of classical liberalism and modern conservativism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany)#Policies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_(Germany)#Party_platform
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HRW, what does it mean for women to have “equal rights”? Obviously I don’t believe in “harsh patriarchy,” but I most certainly do believe in patriarchy. Men were created to desire leadership, and not to want to compete with women for that leadership. Women were created to value loving leadership, to respect the one who leads her lovingly, and to want to bring out the best in others. That is true equality, when men function as men and women function as women. When they’re both competing to do the same thing in society, then both lose, and so does the family and so does society.
In fact, I’d say “equal rights for women” isn’t a thing that should be legislated at all. Work to change men’s hearts, by teaching them the gospel, and then they will love their wives; and society will be changed in a much more radical way than it is by passing laws about who has to hire whom, who can vote, who can earn how much, and so on. Striving for “equality” and “empowering women” does more harm than good; striving for true masculinity and femininity, and for husbands to love their wives, can effectivly change a society for the better.
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You have a greater faith in o man than I do. While you are working to change the hearts of man, whats the fallback dposition for women stuck with unchanging hearts of some men?
“true masculity and feminity” is a debatable defintion but rise in living standards are emprically verifiable.
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Buddyglass, READ — that’s all I can say. I’m not going back and forth with someone who in the face of overwhelming evidence that muslim men treat their wives and daughters like dirt still apologizes for their culture. It’s a sick culture and they all buy into it, which is why it will continue to be a sick culture. And they take it to country to country, even NJ, where a judge who thinks like you do was more than willing to accept that a teenaged bride deserved to be beaten and raped while her mother-in-law and sister-in-law sat in the next room, also telling the court that’s the way it is. They take it to Texas where a father killed his daughters because they put eye shadow on. But by all means feels free to support your local honor killer.
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Cheryl, they are specifically lending to women for two reasons. Many women are actually on their own and need to support themselves and those little businesses help them do that. If they’ve been divorced and kicked out of the family, they need to survive. The other reason is that they actually work. That’s not feminism, that’s survival. And until those women have a chance at suriving on their own, the men in those countries will have no reason to change.
HRW — finally, we agree!!! I knew it would happen one day.
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#91 HRW I think you are getting all caught up in the terminology. Of course not all conservatives are libertarian. We agree.
And of course, Utopianism isn’t necessarily tied to statism or totalitarianism. However, I think the modern liberals differ dramatically from classical liberals. Classical liberals want maximum freedom with minimum government. Modern liberals want to make the world a better place (Utopianism) by force (strong government).
Modern liberalism is about imposing liberal morality on the masses by force of law, i.e. at the end of a gun. As Obama said, his mission is to create heaven on earth and he preaches a collective salvation. You will be saved whether you like it or not.
Hitler, Marx, Mussolini, Stalin and other 20th century tyrants had a similar belief system. Utopia or death! This is modern liberalism at full mast in all its glory.
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HRW, no, I have no “faith in man” at all. I do, however, believe that God’s principles work. I also don’t believe that men can really be made to treat their wives well by law–if the culture accepts a certain behavior, and if it goes on behind closed doors, it is going to happen regardless of the laws.
So, you can say that lack of faith in man leads you to want to push for more and better laws; I say the laws won’t change much if the heart isn’t changed. Christianity is the only way a culture truly gets changed for the better; only God can change the heart. Also, laws to change personal behavior not only are unlikely to work, but are likely to lead to formation of laws that are way beyond the business of the government. So, change laws all you want, but don’t expect them to turn cultures upside-down. Only heart and mind change can do that–whether the change is for the better or for the worse.
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NJL — I think we agree about once every three months — usually on the same type of topic — women’s rights especially in the non-western world.
Xion
no we’re not
Modern liberalism and classical liberalism are two sides of the same coin. Both are humanist philosphies based on the premise that man is basically good and rational and can create a better society. Modern libereralism has learned from history and noticed the need to intervene in the market to correct it or alievate its excesses. Classical liberals would prefer minimal interference. Marxist in the same humanist tradition posits that rational man can dispense with the market and instead direct the economy.
Conservatism does not fully embrace the humanist ideal of a rational good man but instead relies on tradition, culture, morality as well as the market to discipline society. In the early modern era, conservatives opposed classical liberalism but have since assimilated the market as part of their ideology. However, their ideal is still a well ordered society in which individuals understand their responsibility to the greater whole. Fascism with its attempt to reassert a hierarchial society, deference to authority and cultural nationalism is at the extreme of this movement.
In this sense Obama, McCain, McConnell, Bohner, Biden, Clinton are all “liberals” of varying degrees. Palin and some other Tea Party members are not “liberals”, classical or modern, but conservatives.
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Cheryl
I agre that society can’t be changed in a top down approach. However, a bottom up approach includes more than moral suassion, micro lending, improved health care and educational opportunities are ways gov’ts can act without coercion to improve and change women’s status.
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#98 HRW “Modern liberalism and classical liberalism are two sides of the same coin.”
No, they are polar opposites.
Classical liberalism lionized individualism and reason and liberty against the state as modern conservatives do. Modern liberals eschew categorization, but if you boil down what they want it is to empower government to create a better world through enforcement.
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An intellectual stance has an importance relative to its own historical context, as well as ours.
Take Richard Wagner, for example, a revolutionary in both music and politics. Composers who perpetuated the Wagnerian idiom in the 20th C are considered to be conservative.
Stravinsky was a conservative composer, despite an early scandal and his late use of “serial” methods of organizing musical tones (when he was composing a lot of sacred music); compared to Wagner’s compositions, however, Stravinsky’s are radical.
Political opponents sometimes emerge from their brawls wearing each other’s coats, as Lincoln said. The uniform is misleading. The important thing about politics is the character, temperament, social position, and role of the protagonists. Reaganite Republicans exemplify the political outlook of classical liberalism, but they are social, cultural, and economic reactionaries. They would have been the conservative opponents of Thos. Jefferson, even though they now claim to be “classical liberals.” They are anachronisms.
Stravinsky,
one of the few most magnificent composers of the 20th C. I’d count him a conservative, regardless of one or two of his early scandals and his late use of “serial” methods of organizing musical tones, when he was composing a lot of sacred music. I believe he was was politically conservative, too.
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@Xion: “Buddy, all of your questions in #85 are red herrings. Muslims should have the same rights as anyone immigrating to America and as American citizens. No one disagrees with this.”
I question whether its accurate to say “no one disagrees with this” given what NJL has already written in this thread. The purpose of those questions was to get some straight, unequivocal answers about what “needs to be done”. She has thus far declined to answer.
Here’s the context for my asking about her views re: immigration:
#50: …put their countries on notice that if they don’t learn to live like decent people, they aren’t welcome in the West.
#51: …we have a DUTY to ensure that they don’t bring it here.
These seem to advocate a halt to immigration from countries guilty of Islamic barbarism.
#52: They should be forced to face what they are and suffer severe consequences for not doing so.
This one seems to advocate either direct military action or some sort of trade embargo. I’m not sure what other options the U.S. has for making foreign nations “suffer severe consequences”. Hence my questions related to trade embargoes.
@CherylD: “…society will be changed in a much more radical way than it is by passing laws about who has to hire whom, who can vote, who can earn how much, and so on.”
How do you determine who can vote if you don’t pass laws about who can vote?
I’m sympathetic to your points about not interfering in the market to outlaw hiring or wage discrimination, but I also think you take equality for granted. As a single woman you’re able to go out and get a job and support yourself via a decent wage. Flash back 80 years decades and what would your prospects have been? Not good.
@NJL: “Buddyglass, READ — that’s all I can say.”
I will if you will. Let’s start with the following:
@NJL: “I’m not going back and forth with someone who in the face of overwhelming evidence that muslim men treat their wives and daughters like dirt still apologizes for their culture.”
I do not apologize for cultures that approve the mistreatment of women.
Please read that. Then read it again. Then stop lying about me.
Now, as to your overwhelming evidence, allow me to present some of my own:
I have personally known Muslim men who did not mistreat their wives and daughters.
Ergo I can say without a doubt that not all Muslims are guilty of this particular offense.
@NJL: “But by all means feels free to support your local honor killer.”
I do not support honor killing.
I support Muslims who live peacefully and abide by the laws. Unlike you, however, I don’t deny that such Muslims actually exist.
I really wish you’d answer the 9 question I posed in post #85. You seem to have thought a lot about this; surely you have an opinion on some of those issues?
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Buddy, you are a supporter of the muslim culture — a sick culture. That’s my opinion.
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Buddy I am interested in your take on #86.
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Buddy Glass,
CherylD: “…society will be changed in a much more radical way than it is by passing laws about who has to hire whom, who can vote, who can earn how much, and so on.”
How do you determine who can vote if you don’t pass laws about who can vote?
I’m sympathetic to your points about not interfering in the market to outlaw hiring or wage discrimination, but I also think you take equality for granted. As a single woman you’re able to go out and get a job and support yourself via a decent wage. Flash back 80 years decades and what would your prospects have been? Not good.
Obviously we determine who can vote by passing laws about it. I neither said nor implied otherwise. I simply suggested that private decisions about how women are treated matter more than public laws.
Nope, I don’t “take equality for granted.” First off, I hate the very idea of “equality” as used today. I’m not “equal” to a man. I’m a woman. I’m created in the image of God like a man, but I’m a woman, not a man. I’m neither a man’s “equal” nor his inferior; I’m his complement.
It’s true that 80 years ago I’d have had a harder time supporting myself as a single woman. But then, in 1930 no one had an easy time of it!! Seriously, so what that it would have been harder for me personally (if I had been single)? I would have been more likely to have gotten married, and more likely to have lived near or with family if I had not married. And society as a whole was much friendlier to families than it is today–far more important than how easy it is for a single woman to be independent! In other words, if indeed single people like me have gained (which I personally doubt–if nothing else, most singles are living lives of sexual license, which is hardly healthy), and if we’ve gained at the cost of the family itself, then our “gain” has cost too much. It’s not a net benefit.
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@NJL: “you are a supporter of the muslim culture … That’s my opinion.”
Can you point out something I’ve written that supports this opinion?
@Xion: “I am interested in your take on #86.”
Which part? I think it’s often difficult to make pronouncements like “Islam is a religion of violence” when you have people who follow Islam devoutly and yet are not violent and do not support violence. The root question is whether the religion is a “fixed” thing that is either “violent” or “non-violent” regardless of what individual adherents believe it to be.
Reading of a faith’s scriptures can give a general sense of whether it commands violence, and in what contexts, but ultimately those scriptures are going to be interpreted by human beings who may disagree (significantly) over what their “plain meaning” is.
Ultimately I don’t find much to praise about Mohammed.
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Xion
you view the political spectrum by their view of gov’t, however ideology is multi-facet. At its base you should look at goals, origins, and view of man as well as goverance. The great gulf you see between varying degrees of liberalism is in fact minor. In both cases, they see man as a rational good being who can create a better society either through indiviudal acts or use of gov’t structures.
What puzzles me is the number of Christians who on one hand advocate total depravity or orginal sin yet see themsevles as classical liberals. How Christans can view the market composed of sinful individuals making decisions as a good or starting point befuddles. Given their view of human nature, most Christians should be conservatives.
Conservative tend to be far more pessmistic about human abilities and like to stick to what has worked in the past and will only gradually assimilate new ideas when forced or absolutely necessary. If you look at the Christian Demcratic parties in Europe, you will see they are precisely that — conservative, nationalist, and have a pessimistic view of the market.
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#106 Buddy, the point is that all Muslims venerate the life and writings of a terrorist. This terrorist commanded his followers to commit acts of terror. Modern terrorists are simply doing exactly what he said.
You are correct that religious works are interpreted. That is why no credible Christian or Jew uses the Bible as the justification for violence. That is because there is an underlying theme which explains what the God of the Bible intended.
However a significant number of Muslims interpret the Koran as Muhammad intended. He committed terror, commanded his followers to commit terror and oddly enough many of his followers understand what he meant and do what he said.
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Xion
you interpret Islam as a violent religion and Judaism and Christianity as peaceful. But that’s a matter of intrepretation.
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It is secularist atheism that is the most violent ideology of all in actual history.
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#107 Good thoughts HRW. You are right that liberalism is about more than politics. Christians would certainly disagree with secular humanism which views man as basically good. The Bible says that the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. (Jer 17:9)
However, unlike other religions Christianity is based on reason and is logically consistent which may explain why it caught on like wildfire in the West. Salvation is about the individual, contrary to the collective salvation that Obama preaches. Christianity is about liberty in Christ, regardless of one’s worldly estate.
Protestantism, contrary to the statism of Catholics, correctly emphasizes the separation of church and state as Christians claim dual-citizenship in the heavenly kingdom and in the earthly. Not all Christians are on-board with this, but Augustine, Calvin and Luther all emphasized this fact.
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#109 HRW “Xion you interpret Islam as a violent religion and Judaism and Christianity as peaceful. But that’s a matter of intrepretation.”
Yes, but words have meaning. The problem with liberals is that when it comes to Islam words have infinite shades of nuance. However liberals lecture us incessantly about Christianity. At least be consistent.
If you take either religion literally, then you have Christ telling his followers to love their enemies and Muhammad telling his followers to enslave them, torture them, behead them.
If you take either religion as a matter of interpretation, then no Christian or Jew interprets the Bible as advocating violence. Only atheists and anti-Christian bigots do. However, many Muslims interpret Muhammad’s words to mean blowing themselves up in pizza parlors or flying planes into buildings or beheading people and so on.
The real question is why liberals think a legitimate defense against an actual threat by an ideology of terror is to say, “Oh, yeah well what about those Christians?”
Pretty silly, isn’t it?
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#75 – It’s my observation. That should have been clear to you, HRW.
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@Xion: “However a significant number of Muslims interpret the Koran as Muhammad intended. He committed terror, commanded his followers to commit terror and oddly enough many of his followers understand what he meant and do what he said.”
A significant number of self-identified “Christians” claim to follow Jesus and yet discard many teachings I consider fairly fundamental. You can, of course, maintain that they aren’t actually believers (and I might agree), but then that same logic should be applied to “Muslims” who reject the objectionable commands of Mohammed. Which would be the majority of them.
@Xion: “If you take either religion as a matter of interpretation, then no Christian or Jew interprets the Bible as advocating violence.”
Two thoughts on this. First, this isn’t true even today. See those who advocate a violent solution to the abortion issue. Second, when viewing Christianity in a historical perspective, self-identifying “Christians” certainly have justified violence (and not just self-defense) using the Bible.
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#114 Buddy “A significant number of self-identified “Christians” claim to follow Jesus and yet discard many teachings I consider fairly fundamental.”
This is fascinating logic. Can’t you see what you’re doing? Here is what you are saying:
Some Christians fail to live up to Christ’s commandment to love their enemies and some Muslims fail to live up to Muhammad’s commands to behead them. So you see, Christianity is just as much of a threat as Islam.
Buddy … you’re an intelligent person. How can you use such logic? It is beneath you my friend.
As for your second point, Christianity opposes violence. So any person who advocates violence operates contrary to his religion. Will you impugn a religion because of people who violate it?
On the contrary, if a Muslim saws off the head of Daniel Pearl a Jew, precisely like Muhammad himself did of 600 Jews and commanded his followers to do the same, he is adhering to his religion. Yet rather than acknowledge the obvious, you will say, “Oh yeah, well what about those evil Christians.”
Let me say it again, since I assume you missed it. A Christian who kills violates his religion. A Muslim who subjects a person to a slow gruesome death is a good Muslim who is doing what Muhammad commanded. Do you understand the concept of an ideology and that words have meaning?
I have never gotten over the fact that intelligent liberals continue to think that such attempts at moral equivalency constitutes an actual argument. It is so bizarre. I feel bad that you refuse to understand or even acknowledge something so basic. It is a willing ignorance. Why would anyone go out of their way to be ignorant?
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Xion, it is frustrating, isn’t it?
What is interesting on this thread is that a few people ackowledge that they do not fully approve of Islamic regimes. They are acknowledging that there are Muslim terrorists. That’s all that we are saying. We are saying that some people of a certain faith are bent on violence and that some countries that follow that faith are oppressive and even abusive. We have been saying just what some of the others are being pushed to acknowledge on this thread.
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@Xion: “Here is what you are saying: Some Christians fail to live up to Christ’s commandment to love their enemies and some Muslims fail to live up to Muhammad’s commands to behead them. So you see, Christianity is just as much of a threat as Islam.”
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Where did I remotely imply that Christianity was “as much of a threat” as Islam?
I was trying to respond to your logic, which seems to be: “A significant number of Muslims consider Islam to command terrorism; there are passages in the Koran that seem to command terrorism; ergo Islam is a violent, terrorist religion.”
My response was to point out that that: Some number of self-identified Christians consider Christianity to command violence (even more if you look across the entire scope of history) and there are passages in the Bible that seem to command violence. And yet I don’t consider Christianity to be a “violent” religion. Far from it. So given a similar set of facts, why is Islam condemned?
I will certainly admit that that are differences of degree. Today the percentage of Muslims who interpret Islam to command violence is greater than the percentage of Christians who interpret the Bible to command violence. The passages in the Koran that seem to command violence are less amenable to alternate interpretation than those in the Bible.
If the offending passages in the Koran cannot be reasonably explained in any way but to command violence then I would agree that the Koran is a book that commands violence. In that case, though, many self-identified Muslims must not hold the Koran in very high regard, since they don’t act in accordance with those passages. In this case we have “Islam the religion” populated by a bunch of people who reject (in part) the Koran.
@Xion: “As for your second point, Christianity opposes violence. So any person who advocates violence operates contrary to his religion.”
Some calling themselves Christians disagree with you and have acted based on that disagreement. Many more in antiquity have disagreed with you and acted on that disagreement.
Personally I agree with you: I don’t think an honest reading of the Bible supports the kind of violence we’re talking about. Many Muslims apparently consider that an honest reading of the Koran also fails to support such violence. You’re essentially saying they’re wrong, and that your understanding of the Koran is the right one. One what basis do you make that claim?
@Xion: “…Muslim saws off the head of Daniel Pearl a Jew, precisely like Muhammad himself did of 600 Jews…”
Two comments:
1. The Jews in question were executed for conspiring against Mohammed’s military enemies in violation of the Constitution of Medina.
2. Is it significant that Pearl’s parents chose a Muslim to eulogize him at a memorial service, and that this Muslim condemned the violence that ended Pearl’s life?
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HRW, I must disagree with you on the issue of libertarianism’s idea of man’s nature. Man is at best flawed, at worst evil, and thus all measures must be taken to prevent the concentration of power in the hands of a few, for even if those few are good, they are flawed and will err. Decentralization of power is thus the best way to run a society. If neoliberalism believes man is basically good, then it is indeed opposing libertarianism, and definitely not the other side of the same coin.
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#117 Buddy – I guess the good news is that you finally acknowledged the reality that Muhammad had people beheaded. Of course you quickly rationalize this as a simple military matter. That’s what his followers say too.
So why is it such a tremendous stretch to acknowledge that words have meaning and that ideology matters? I think you are bending over so far backwards to defend peaceful Muslims that you ignore and rationalize their ideology. However peaceful a Muslim is, he nevertheless venerates a terrorist and highway bandit as the ultimate role model.
What would you say to someone who says he loves Nazi ideology and Hitler was his hero. He says he teaches it to his children and he hopes they all hope to grow up and be just like him?
I am not being flippant here. This is an honest question.
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Tony was questioning the rational behind the elites on the political left changing their mind about Islam. Not whether Islam was peaceful but why did the left change it’s mind about Islam.
Not only did the elite left change their mind about Islam they have changed their mind about the wars. Since they won control of the House the reporting of war demonstration has drop to almost nothing. There were news stories about Casey’s mom, Cindy Lee Miller Sheehan, the great anti-war activist. Where are the anti-war news stories now?
Can Tony’s explanation also explain why the anti-war news stories have almost vanished?
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The problem is not one religion or another, it’s religious fundamentalism, and Islam has the most religious fundamentalists. American Christian fundamentalists have never had the political strength to impose a Christian government on this country, and have been largely constrained by the constitution. The same can’t be said of wide wide swaths of the Islamic world.
There’s a continuum of fundamentalist influence on society and government, with the current extremes being Muslim regimes on one end, and liberal secularist European democracy on the other. The United States is between the extremes. I would say we’re closer to the middle, around Turkey perhaps.
It’s clear that most of the conservatives here feel like liberals attack Christians far more than they attack Muslims. I’m sure that’s true. I for one don’t spend time on Muslim blogs arguing politics and religion with fundamentalist Muslims. I can’t speak for all liberals, but personally I would rather argue with conservative Christians because they have a direct political affect on my life. Face it, the Tea Party is primarily a party of Conservative Christians and Christian fundamentalists, and they dominate the thought and energy of the House majority. Now because of these religious folks in the House, we will not only do nothing to combat global warming, the House will be used as a forum to discredit science itself. This is exactly the kind of thing that is pulling us closer to the nightmare of fundamentalist rule. Christians, not Muslims, are the ones dragging me and every other like minded American liberal in a direction we don’t want to go.
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So many incorrect uses of fundamentalist in comment 121. Kwatson I recommend looking up the origin of the word “fundamentalist” and the fundamentals that define fundamentalist Christianity. Granted I am not one of them but it irks me to see terms being misused over and over again.
Also, 40 years ago, climatologists thought the world would freeze, now they think it will burn. I know it will be burning most definitely 4 billion years from now from astrophysics, but climatology is such a new field and is far from having enough empirical data to correctly determine what will happen to the climate for at least a few hundred years. For an acceptable level of accuracy of long-term prediction, a few millenniums worth of data would be necessary.
What we do know is that the CO2 in the ground used to be in the air, that CO2 is a greenhouse, albeit weak, that methane is a greenhouse gas that is roughly 72 times more effective than CO2, that most human production of methane is from landfills, that environmental groups fight tooth and nail against alternative waste management methods(for example, the trash incineration used in Denmark. NY tried to build a few of those but the Sierra Club stopped them, even though it would produce clean energy, eliminate the need for landfills, recycle heavy metals, industrial chemicals and safely neutralize hazardous waste, and barely produce any CO2 at all) etc. The last part there leads me to believe that Al Gore is not the only environmentalist leader who is hypocritical.
I do not mean to put down environmentalists, many of my friends in my field of study are here to help develop alternative energy. I am glad to have educated them on the hypocrisy of the US environmental movement.(this might pain some here, but the environmentalists in Europe tend to be far more practical, wiser, and far less hypocritical than their counterparts here in the US)
For example, solar and wind power will not be practicable on the large scale unless the energy they produce can be stored in large quantities. We need new energy storage systems. An example would be the nuclear battery. There are two prototypes I have read of in National Geographic that are being used and tested in Scandinavia. This technology could allow mid-size towns and smaller to be off the grid, as they could produce their own power. This would result in more efficient power usage, not to mention avoiding the loss of power from the currents travel along the power lines. I could imagine the environmental outrage here if we tried to use this tech.
In France they willingly use nuclear power, something we should do instead of burning coal, as coal is needed for steel-making and it is not exactly unlimited. If we plan to get off this planet in the future, we will need coal.
The power source though that would bring our technology to the next level is fusion. Fusion is being tested now, though there will be no fusion reactors harnessed to the grid for at least 40 years. In the meantime, nuclear power could serve as the main power source for cities, with solar and wind combined with the nuclear batteries (which have little to no nuclear waste) used to move rural areas off the grid. Solar could be used through coatings on windows to reduce nuclear consumption in the cities, but nuclear power would still be needed.
I am no environmentalist, I am simply a person who wants to conserve the resources we have and eliminate foreign dependence on oil.
Concerning oil, an excellent way to reduce oil consumption is to end government support of the interstates, instead supporting normal and high-speed rail, which is not only far cheaper (like 1/25th of the cost for roads) to build and maintain, but they would greatly reduce the demand for cars, trucking, and planes as high speed rail can compete with planes for domestic traffic, freight could obliterate long-haul trucking, and cars, although only slightly reducing their demand, would be used far less.
The great thing is, rail is cheap enough to be maintained by the private sector, saving the gov’t a lot of money in the long run. Ironically if we had let the private sector run our infrastructure back in the 50’s instead of public funding of the interstates and the US gov’t interfering with railroad companies to appease the truck lobbies, our economy would be stronger, the government would have much less debt, and we would have been a “greener” nation.
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[spotted this just now on the web!]
OBAMA FULFILLING THE BIBLE
Here are some Bible verses that Pres. Obama avoids:
Proverbs 19:10 (NIV): “It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury – how much worse for a slave to rule over princes!”
Also Proverbs 30:22 (NIV) which says that the earth cannot bear up under “a servant who becomes king.”
And Ecclesiastes 5:2-3 (KJV) advises: “let thy words be few…a fool’s voice is known by multitude of words.”
Although Obama is not descended from slaves, he may feel that he’s destined to become a black-slavery avenger.
Or maybe an enslaver of all free citizens!
For more on the Obamas, Google “Michelle Obama’s Allah-day” and “Obama Supports Public Depravity.” For more on Pelosi, Google “Madam Nancy Pelosi’s Brothel District.” For more on Islam, Google “Prof. Dr. F. N. Lee’s ISLAM IN THE BIBLE (PDF).”
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One correction, the nuclear batteries proposed do not produce waste harmful to humans. The tritium gas used is the same that is used to light “Exit” signs and is safe enough to be used in pacemakers. Harmless waste, what will we think of next?
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@Xion: “However peaceful a Muslim is, he nevertheless venerates a terrorist and highway bandit as the ultimate role model.”
I think perception is important here. You feel that you can objectively say that Mohammed was a terrorist and highway bandit. If you asked most Muslims whether that was the case they would say “No, I would never hold a terrorist and highway bandit in such high regard.”
So they agree with you that “venerating a terrorist” is not acceptable. They just disagree with you on whether Mohammed was a terrorist.
Maybe they’re wrong. Maybe they’re confused. But the fact remains that they’re not doing what you’re accusing them of, which is venerating someone they understand to be a pretty terrible guy.
@Xion: “What would you say to someone who says he loves Nazi ideology and Hitler was his hero. He says he teaches it to his children and he hopes they all hope to grow up and be just like him?”
I’d say that Nazism is a terrible thing to support and teach to one’s children. Assuming they actually understand it.
Side question for you: What would you say to a believer who followed a strain of theology largely popularized by a man who defended (and took credit) for the murder of those he considered “heretics”? That’s Calvin. Now, Calvinists obviously don’t venerate Calvin, but they hold him in pretty high regard, and definitely don’t treat him as a murderer and/or one who approved of murder. Should we be raking them over the coals as well?
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Christian fundamentalists are also environmentalists..the Amish probably leave the smallest footprint on the earth. They are also pacifists.
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As a former feminist who turned to Christ, I stopped fretting over Paul’s injunctions relative to women teaching adults in the church when I recognized a logical reason for this: Throughout history and across cultures, men do not often listen to women. Men learn best from other men. Perhaps this dates back to the Garden of Eden, when Adam took Eve’s disastrous advice?
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“…for the murder of those he considered “heretics”?”
You’ll have to define how that was murder.
The man was wanted by the French Inquisition just as much. Had been arrested previously, and despite escape was still tried and convicted. When arrested in Geneva, he was given the option of even going back to Vienna, but he chose Geneva.
The man called the Trinity doctrine from the devil and basically said even the chair you sit in is the substance of God. It was blasphemy from which he refused to back down not only according to that age, but this age as well. His trial in Geneva lasted TWO MONTHS.
In that age, heretics were executed. Mass executions were common among the Catholics, but they didnt often give such trials. Calvin didnt invent the wheel here or the culture to which he was apart of. He further had no vote on the 25 man council in Geneva that found Serventus guilty, who by the way was the only one to ever be executed in Geneva. They didnt consult Calvin, but the surrounding churches for advice. Calvin argued for mitigation of the sentence.
Did Calvin murder serventus? Nope. Is he a murderer like the rest of us, who need Jesus just as much? yes. Was the culture blind to the justification of heretical executions? Quite possibly.
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Thorn:
“You’ll have to define how that was murder.”
Calvin urged the state to execute Servetus and approved of his execution for heresy. He subsequently defended (Defensio orthodoxae fidei de sacra Trinitate) the practice of executing heretics in general and claimed he was owed a debt of gratitude for his part in Servetus’s death.
If this is not murder then neither was it murder for Nazi camp staff to herd Jews into the gas chamber and flip the switch. In both cases the action was “legal” and carried out in an orderly fashion by the civil authorities with the blessing of the state.
Your point seems to be that Calvin is not guilty of murder since Servetus was convicted by the council. I guess I can see that; maybe “murder” is too strong a word. How about “an apologist state-sanctioned atrocity”.
“The man was wanted by the French Inquisition just as much.”
Not relevant.
“The man called the Trinity doctrine from the devil…”
Not relevant.
By discussing Servetus’s doctrine you’re giving tacit approval to the idea that his execution may have been justified by virtue of the content of his words. Is that really a point you want to make? That certain content is “blasphemous enough” to justify execution at the hands of men?
“Calvin didnt invent the wheel here or the culture to which he was apart of.”
Agreed. But neither does it excuse him. Especially given that the execution of heretics wasn’t universally accepted even by his contemporaries, e.g. Sebastian Castellio.
“They didnt consult Calvin, but the surrounding churches for advice. Calvin argued for mitigation of the sentence.”
From what I’ve read Calvin argued for beheading instead of immolation on the basis that it would be more humane. He did not argue against the execution; on the contrary he defended it when it was criticized. He also wrote this:
Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster.
Key points:
1. Calvin exhorted the council to execute Servetus,
2. Calvin subsequently felt he was owed a debt of gratitude for the purging of Servetus. If no blood was on Calvin’s hands, why would he be owed a debt of gratitude? Would it not be owed to the council instead?
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#125 Buddy “I think perception is important here. You feel that you can objectively say that Mohammed was a terrorist and highway bandit.”
Here is where our discussions always break down, perhaps by design. To you words are malleable things and history is what one makes of it. To me words have meaning and history talks about things which actually happened.
A Muslim can deny history, but it doesn’t change anything. A Muslim can interpret a commandment to terrorize and torture infidels to the ends of the earth and saw off their limbs as a call to personal discipline, but that is not what Muhammad meant. He lead by example.
I’d say that Nazism is a terrible thing to support and teach to one’s children. Assuming they actually understand it.
Really? On what basis? Based on words and ideology and history? How is one ideology to kill Jews laudable while the other is despicable?
What if your Nazi neighbors were just the nicest people in the world, except for maybe a few minor flaws like celebrating whenever Jews die?
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I wonder if any of the far left have ever read the Quaran. Thomas Jefferson did in the 1804 or 1805 when american ships were being attacked by muslim pirates. couldn’t understand them till he read the Quaran then he went in and cannonballed the the capital city in algeria and got all our ships back. It wasn’t that he didn’t try to reason with the muslims, they were just following the Quaran by taking the fire and sword to the infidels.
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“If this is not murder then neither was it murder for Nazi camp staff to herd Jews into the gas chamber and flip the switch.”
Jews werent given a trial, the opporunity to recant, nor is this a similiar age. They were simply led to slaughter, millions of them from the hatred of Hitler. He altered the laws just for his goal placed upon race. In every age this would have been seen as wrong.
I fail to see how anything remotely resembling that happened in Serventus’ case.
“By discussing Servetus’s doctrine you’re giving tacit approval to the idea that his execution may have been justified by virtue of the content of his words. Is that really a point you want to make? That certain content is “blasphemous enough” to justify execution at the hands of men?”
Would it not be for a religious state? It was prime offense in the O.T. for a church state like Israel. To blaspheme God, got you immediate execution, esp if you were out preaching it.
Calvin argued that death was an acceptable punishment for heresy. That was the established prescedent for the last 2500 years practically.
Even Castellio agreed with Calvin’s definition of a heretic and upon conviction, submission to the punishment. Castellio simply disagreed that Serventus was a heretic. Most of which he argued against after the execution.
However, I’m not sure how much more heretical you could get than Serventus, who didnt just disagree with current doctrine, but said it was from the devil. His notion of God wasnt even close to the gospel.
Attributing murder to Calvin or anyone on the council at its time, would be in the least, no different than a trial 20 years ago in which the information led the jury and judge to convict of murder and sentenced to death. Only to find out 20 years later from new information/technology (like DNA) that the man convicted was innocent. Are you to to charge them with murder of the accused? The jury, the judge, the witnesses? Especially since the man would still be guilty of heresy by todays standards?
Perhaps they would be, perhaps Calvin and the council likewise are as ignorant despite its blindness is not excusable. What are we blind to?
However, we, just like Calvin are no less sinners, no more perfect, no less murderers. This is why, as christians hold King David in high regard despite his sins, we can still hold each other in high regard…because Christ has paid for those sins. It’s why its a silly point to worry about Serventus or Calvin as if you have any better judgement especially during an age of heavy toleration.
What I certainly believe in, is that the purity of the church is worth a fight. That is what Calvin argued for and where Castellio seems to miss. Castellio thought toleration was good, because the gospel cant be forced. It is a good point for individual salvation; however, you can mnake the same mistake falling off the side of toleration, that you can off of forcing. Both lead to a destruction of the importance of doctrine within the church. We are no less devisive in this age as they were.
In the least, the church should be kicking out those who do not see sin as sin and God as God. Servantus, did neither.
“1. Calvin exhorted the council to execute Servetus,”
Key Points: Calvin was a witness, Calvin was not a citizen, Calvin was a frenchmen, whom by the late 40s the Council was almost entirely antiFrench. He was one of the few that attempted any sort of mediation as those tensions rose between the factions. He was constantly chiding Geneva for its hypocrisy. In other words, he held ZERO authority in the case. His witness was not false witness. He presented the writings of Servantus and Servantus had every opportunity to deny and speak for himself, which he did not deny.
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