Whoopi, Joy, and Barbara do theology
The View may not be a model of clear thinking but it probably offers a pretty good view of current cultural thinking—what might better be called “feelthink.” A few days ago, Joel Osteen was on the show to help kick off the Christmas season, but Barbara Walters immediately ambushed him with a question about homosexuality. Not for the first time, the ladies began showing off their expertise in Christian ethics. Walters: What about this pastor in Georgia who recently came out as gay? Joy Behar: It’s terrible that people use the Bible to condemn gays because it leads to bullying. And these people didn’t choose the way they are. Whoopi Goldberg: Doesn’t God say, “Nobody can judge you but me”? What business do we have judging another person’s lifestyle?
Any truck could drive through the gaping holes in their logic. To Walters: Do the actions of one pastor disprove all of Scripture and church history? To Behar: Are you saying that homosexuals should be pitied, then, because they can’t help it? Would their behavior be worse if it were a choice? To Goldberg: In the same Scripture that says, “don’t judge” you’ll find an awful lot of judgments. If you just ignore the ones you don’t like, it sounds like you might be judging God—is that a spot you want to be in? Instead of jumping into the truck cab and turning the ignition, Pastor Joel tiptoed around the issue, insisting that his church welcomes everybody: “But there’s the Scripture that we can’t necessarily change.” For him that’s a strong statement, but he’d been put in an impossible situation.
How about something like this: “You know, Barbara, I was invited on the show to talk about Christmas, and believe it or not, this ties in. The Bible clearly says that homosexuals are sinners—no, wait a minute, let me finish. It also says, just as clearly, that I am a sinner and so are you. But Jesus came in order to take our sins upon himself and let God judge them by judging Him. If we accept God’s judgment on our character and behavior, and believe that Jesus actually did what He said He would do, then we’ll be forgiven. That’s what Christmas is all about.”
No unbeliever is going to be persuaded by logical argument against any sin. What he needs is to be changed, and the gospel is the change agent. High-profile pastors who appear on talk shows should consider how the Apostle Paul could turn a riot, a philosophical forum, or a prison stay into a gospel sermon. In a post-Christian age, that would be a knack worth learning.

















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back to top121 Comments to “Whoopi, Joy, and Barbara do theology”
Barbara Walters immediately ambushed him with a question about homosexuality
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What should you expect from anti-christian people like Whoopi, Joy, and Barbara. These 3 people are what is wrong with TV programing
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It never ceases to amaze me how representatives of Christ allow themselves to be distracted & side-tracked by smoke screens & secondary issues… The primary issue of Christianity is NOT homosexuality, but it IS Christ & Him crucified to make a way to the Father for those who are lost & broken by sin. What a marvelous opportunity to proclaim this primary & essential truth of Christianity, & yet time & again, it remains unproclaimed in the public forum! Oh, that Christ-followers might unashamedly, compassionately, and intelligently proclaim this one essential truth!
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Bullying is indeed a severe problem and the homosexualists are the bullies. They have been brutal and vicious to the Boy Scouts of America for decades now. It is evil at it’s deepest extent on earth today, in my opinion. What is nearly as evil is how Christians frequently ignore the bullying of homosexualists and too often allow the bullies to run roughshod over the innocent and decent, like the Boy Scouts. Shame on the Christians who turn their heads away from the evil done my homosexualists and let the innoecnt be trampled over. Jeses would NEVER have done that.
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Deborah,
Dealing with sin and calling for repentance is certainly not a side track. Te Bible says that the reason that the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work (1 John 3:8).
When you work in the real world in ministry and love those who are being chewed up by sin, you begin to realize that love calls for strong stands against the propogation and excusing of blatant sin–sin that is destroying human lives (like homosexuality).
The very reason Christ was crucified was precisely because of sins like homosexuality. Like Jesus, we must not live as if such sins are no big deal (which was not exactly what you said, I realize). Jesus did’t. Read what he had to say about Sodom and Gommorah (several times too).
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Here is a great idea for Christian do not watch or go on the view. It would send a loud and clear message..
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I would have told Behar that she is grossly dehumanizing homosexuals. What makes us truly human, more than anything else, is that we have the capacity for moral choices in life, especially regarding who and how we love and why. To take that moral choice” out of the picture is to dehumanize homosexuals. If we were talking about dogs or rats, well maybe they don’t have moral or aesthetic choices. But we are talking about human beings.
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Here is a great for Whoopi, Joy, and Barbara… Any sexual behavior out side of marriage is called a sin. As stated in God’s Word marriage is between one man and one woman, so for a Christian, homosexuality is a sexual sin, an has no place being called normal, with in side God’s House or support by the Christian Community. If society wants to approve of homosexuality, that is up to society.
As for the statement of “It’s terrible that people use the Bible to condemn gays because it leads to bullying” Sorry, but God’s Word does not condemn gays. They can find forgiveness through Christ and the strength to not give into the temptation of sexual sins. What is leading to bullying is sin. Sin wants to force people into sin, God’s Word wants to bring freedom to people.
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Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Often we get side-tracked w/ specific sins, when the real problem is alienation from God, caused by the condition of sin & waywardness from him. Working in jail ministry, I address the deeper issue of waywardness, alienation from God & going our own way, & of course, the specifics of this gets dealt with in the process.
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I can see why they would invite an imposter as Osteen. He is as far from an authentic christian as any in the public eye. Fits right in with this group. I would like to see a real preacher, theologian on this show.
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The issue is, what is alienation man from God, and how Christ came to restore us to a right relationship with God.
The problem is this fear of addressing sin, because it may make people feel unhappy. To hear they need to repent and turn away from sin.
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Why did these ladies bring up homosexuality? To cause trouble and to make it sound like they care about people and that Christian do not care about people.
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What an amazing meeting of the minds. Any encounter between such towering intellects is always compelling.
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I will say that the other night Whoppi was on Huckabee and she was rather reasonable.
You are correct I would like them to get a real theologian like John McArthur, R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan etc and see the fireworks then. It actually might be worth watching
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“But there’s the Scripture that we can’t necessarily change.”
There’s no necessarily about it. And if Osteen were a real pastor, he would’t mince words and would respond appropriately.
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“…make it sound like they care about people and that Christian do not care about people.”
No, I think they want to show that some people claiming to be Christian do not care about people.
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“The problem is this fear of addressing sin, because it may make people feel unhappy. To hear they need to repent and turn away from sin.”
Like being divorced and remarrying, right, PB? Repent from your second marriage (unless of course you were saved between marriages in which case clause 35 subchapter A paragraph 1 says your good to go)!!
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Devo101 – as I stated before you have a hard time understanding God’s Mercy and Grace, when it comes to divorce and remarryed. This is not the place to debate it.
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“Dealing with sin and calling for repentance is certainly not a side track.”
Exactly, Joel Mark, stop sinning and repent.
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Deborah,
We disagree seriously. I think you are making false distinctions for the purpose of side-stepping the confrontation that is often necessary for Christ-like Christians in this sinful world. When specific sins are crippling our lives and our soulds, it is not a “side-track” to deal with them specifically. But we must do so in love and without compromising our integrity before God and without compromising His will and standards.
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PR, Every place that you guys use to condemn and judge gays is the place to discuss the “sin” of divorce and remarriage in protestant churches. It goes to hypocrisy.
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Devo101 11.22.10 AT 4:14 PM
PR, Every place that you guys use to condemn and judge gays is the place to discuss the “sin” of divorce and remarriage in protestant churches. It goes to hypocrisy.
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you problem is God – Mercy and Grace covers divorce and remarriage.
God’s Mercy and Grace covers those who are gay and repent of the sexaul sin.
Now here the catch divorce is not a sin….the divorce is the result of sin.
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No one, is condemn and judge gays…. Their sexual sin is what brings them into conflict with God’s Word.
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To Walters: Do the actions of one pastor disprove all of Scripture and church history?
Clearly not. Did Walters suggest that it does? If not, why are you asking her the question?
To Behar: Are you saying that homosexuals should be pitied, then, because they can’t help it?
It’s clear that she’s saying they should be pitied because they’re often bullied for something that (in her opinion) they didn’t choose. Like being beaten up because you’re funny looking.
To Goldberg: In the same Scripture that says, “don’t judge” you’ll find an awful lot of judgments.
Spoken by…Jesus.
While ultimately these three have a wrong view of the sinfulness of homosexuality, I find certain of their words quoted here to more or less ring true:
It’s terrible that people use the Bible to condemn gays because it leads to bullying.
It is terrible that someone might misuse biblical teaching on homosexuality as a premise for bullying.
And these people didn’t choose the way they are.
Here she’s talking about a proposed biological basis for same-sex attraction, which I’ll describe as “debatable”. Consider this statement from a theological point of view, though. Did I choose to be sinful, or was it a forgone conclusion given my having been born into a fallen creation? See the latter half of Romans 7.
Doesn’t God say, “Nobody can judge you but me”?
This is more or less true, depending on how one defines “judge”. Here are two relevant verb meanings from dictionary.com: “pass sentence on” and “conclude about or assess”.
God is the only and ultimate judge with regard to passing sentence. However, clearly the Bible does not forbid men from exercising the second type of judgment.
When Goldberg says “judge” with respect to a “person’s lifestyle” she most likely means “declare to be wrong”. Which is clearly not forbidden by the Bible. But what did Jesus mean in the passage she alluded to?
Basically Jesus is saying, “Don’t judge other people too harshly on the basis of their sin, because you’re just as bad if not worse. To the extent you’re uncharitable to someone on the basis of his sin you may end being treated the same way.”
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Also folks Devo101 is using the GLBT Commuity talking points in regards to this issue she is using. The reason I am saying this I have seen the same arugment being used in the local newspaper and on facebook.
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Also folks Devo101 is using the GLBT Commuity talking points in regards to this issue she is using. The reason I am saying this I have seen the same arugment being used in the local newspaper and on facebook.
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It goes to hypocrisy.
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The fact is sexual sins are destroying people lives.
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http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1236282
I have a lesbian cousin. Her bio dad was some dude who had an affair with her mom my then-aunt. My uncle Bob (long deceased) was an alcoholic and likely wife-beater. The cousin never actually had any type of normal home life and the role-modeling she received for a healthy hetero relationship was warped if present at all
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Ug, seriously this post is about what you saw on The View? We can do better than this can’t we? I’ve read your blog Janie, and I’ve read your contributions here–including your patently absurd pedophilia scare! You have some very good ideas about YA fiction, and some very dumb ideas about sex.
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And I’ll note from your blog, if you compare what you wrote about the “The Pedophile’s Guide to Love and Pleasure” to what you wrote about “The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian” you should have followed your own advice!
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What about the bullying of Christians? Why is that okay? Joel gets invited to discuss Christmas, and immediately gets attacked, broadsided.
But that’s okay. Poor Christians, right? Quit complaining, right? It’s okay to attack a Pastor for the actions of other Pastors, right? But this is only true for Christians, I guess.
P.S., I see Devo just can’t resist popping up every chance he gets to tell people that they are misrepresenting Christ, and that they are not Christians. I will have to seek his counsel whenever I doubt my salvation.
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BrotherDan, you know it is ok to make fun of Christian an it is not view as being mean spirit or bulling.
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It hasn’t been signed yet, but NJ’s legislature just passed a bill against bullying — and there are those who intend to use it when Christians are bullied.
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I would have asked the sirens to please explain how many different kinds of humans there are. Answer: male and female. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a behavior, not a new kind of human.
A homosexual is a normal person with a sin problem, just like the rest of us. God sent his son as a babe in a manger to address this problem. Merry Christmas!
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I think Christians who are ambushed by liberals would go far by having liberals define their terms.
Please define homosexual. Define abortion. Define adultery.
Liberals try to redefine these ugly things as: gay, choice, affair! Instead, please explain what you mean in detail.
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In some contexts reasonable discussion is impossible because of the attitudes of the participants. I’ve never watched The View but gather that this situation was one of those contexts. I think we are quite familiar with the phenomenon.
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Date Line Massachusetts. Gay marriage now legal for over 6 years, still absolutely no noticeable affect, just more liberty and freedom.
Now if we could only get rid of the Boy Scouts until they stop discriminating against homosexuals and Atheists. I jest, I’m sure the national Boy Scouts already give Massachusetts Scouts a nod and a wink.
The history of the word “gay” is interesting. It was originally non-prejudicial, and could be applied to stylish objects as well as to people. It’s easy to see why the term came to be applied to stereotypical “out” homosexuals. It wasn’t some self-naming coordinated PR move. However it started, it became an insult and a slur among much of the gay fearing population. Now, that it’s become so common, it’s becoming non-prejudicial again. That’s Gay, like that’s ridiculous. I don’t know about where you live, but there aren’t many people around here that would find being called gay very insulting. Does that mean the homosexualists have taken over my happy valley?
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The 54 year old gay guy in the office wouldn’t want to be called gay. He still tells people he has girlfriends.
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#36 KWatson “Gay marriage now legal for over 6 years, still absolutely no noticeable affect, just more liberty and freedom.”
I’m not opposed to stupid government, since it is the best we can hope for. Special laws for people based on nothing but sexual preference is irrational, but so be it. I only object to the bastardization of the English languages to call it marriage.
And how is taking away someone’s freedom to discriminate more freedom? What’s wrong with protecting children from people whose sexuality is defined in rest areas?
Speech is less free. The Massachusetts legislature is trying to ban the words ‘husband’ and ‘wife’ from all official documents. Hate speech laws will eventually make portions of the Bible illegal. In England a man was jailed for quoting the Bible and parents had a foster child taken away for refusing to teach the beauty of homosexuality.
How is any of that more free?
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Liberals try to redefine these ugly things as: gay, choice, affair! Instead, please explain what you mean in detail.
Pretty simple terms, everybody knows what they are. Sure, both sides have their own terminology but everybody knows what they are talking about.
As opposed to,say, salvation, redemption, the trinity, resurrection, sin, etc, over which Christians have so frequently spilled each other’s blood…
But the folks whose use of language these days is most contorted are the Tea Party types who stake out claims for “freedom” and “liberty” for themselves (well actually for their corporate paymasters) but none for others.
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I don’t think asking someone who’s a prominent Christian leader, who by virtue of being there (ostensibly to talk about Christmas and the core of Christian faith), a difficult question of the controversies in his faith community (and let me remind you that there is not a “Christian consensus” on gay sex) is the same as “bullying”! So yeah seriously, quit your whining and grow up!
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“I only object to the bastardization of the English languages to call it marriage.”
If you know a thing about English, you know it’s kind of a Bastard language!
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P.S. Rather than evolving notions of words tied to social change, I’m worried for English because of Conservative dolts like Palin…enter “refudiate”!
“Refudiate”…the plank in the eye of conservatives and their attempts to “save” the English language! I don’t want to have to press 1 to escape Palin’s mangled vocabulary and idiotic platitudes!
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Its no wonder some conservatives oppose gay marriage and support traditional marriage, they do it so often – Newt Ginrich e.g.
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I don’t think that Joel Osteen should be surprised at the questions that were leveled at him. He knows how The View works and that it wasn’t going to stay focused on “The Christmas Spirit”. So, I don’t think he went into this interview totally unprepared (or he shouldn’t have).
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I don’t know how to tell you this, but refudiate made it into the dictionary last week.
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Don’t things mean whatever we want them to mean?
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“you problem is God – Mercy and Grace covers divorce and remarriage.
God’s Mercy and Grace covers those who are gay and repent of the sexaul sin.
Now here the catch divorce is not a sin….the divorce is the result of sin.”
Adultery is sin – remarrying after a divorce is adultery. You like to say that if you come to Christ AFTER your divorce it is ok as the first marriage was of a past life (or some such twisting of the word). If I accept that, answer me, what happens if you divorce and remarry AFTER you come to Christ? You are (according to Jesus word) living an adulterous life. Must you repent your second adulterous marriage or do you excuse this action/sin simply because it is heterogeneous?
Please TRY to answer the question this time, PR. And it DOES go to hypocrisy. You have a double standard here and it is clear to all who have eyes to see or ears to hear.
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I don’t know about all you, but the whole issue gets so tiresome. Honestly, aside from creating controversy, what do the View ladies care what Joel Olsteen believes about homosexuality? It’s not a mystery. The man says he represents the Bible. The Bible clearly says that a sexual relationship between two men or two women is not the ideal plan. End of story. I want to start asking why gays care what others think. It seems that everything they do…the parades, the flamboyance, the “ACT UP” is to burn people. Aside from the Westboro Baptist Church, which is a group of mentally ill people calling themselves Baptist, Christians don’t think like that. I think we should turn away from media that spends it’s energy in this way…Fox News too when they seem to be beating on an issue just to fill air time. They aren’t trying to solve anything. It’s all a big game and I believe the Kingdom would be better served if we all opted out of playing.
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“I don’t know how to tell you this, but refudiate made it into the dictionary last week.”
That’s ultimately a better thing for me than for you, cause guess what…languages change, including the word marriage. You don’t own it, you can’t control it. It’s NOT YOURS to preserve or not! That’s what it means to speak a language! Which if you reread post 41, is kind of the point!
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“Don’t things mean whatever we want them to mean?”
No, they mean whatever they successfully mean. Meaning is a practical test of function, people agreeing that arbitraty symbols and sounds will stand in for the ideas of things. You can use words anyway you want, but if no one understands you…they can’t be said to mean what you wanted them too.
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“You don’t own it, you can’t control it.”
Well that means you dont either…
Besides, language changing doesnt take force or a bill from Congress…
That’s a silly response.
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“remarrying after a divorce is adultery.”
In at least some cases yes.
Quite possible in some cases, not.
However, adultery, clearly is a sin. Does the church have a problem with it? Sure. People are sinners. What the church doesnt need a problem with is unrepentant adulterers.
Gays entirely miss the point. It is the self righteous who have no place with Christ whether a heterosexual fornicator or a gay adulterer or a murderer or a theif. One who is unrepentant is no different than a Pharisee. To claim there is nothing wrong with what you do turns antinomianism right into legalism.
The church is only hypocritical when it allows the self righteous to join, or when it kicks out the repentant.
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DEVO101,
Christians certainly have their share of hypocrisy. But in this case you are demanding a clear and precise answer that the Bible does not precisely answer. There are passages that can be applied in differing ways. God seems to leave the answer to our specific circumstances in the arena of our listening to the Holy Spirit as He would apply the Word to each of us. Of course we are all expert at applying our favorite verses to other people.
You seem to be primarily seeking for Christians to admit that we are hypocrites. I admit it. But I suspect that won’t satisfy you. You want your particular view of marriage to be acknowledged as THE correct interpretation. It is a very difficult issue to resolve. There are many Godly people with differing views. BTY, I am married and never been divorced.
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SOCIALWORKER #48 and THORN #52 very well said.
It will be interesting to see how successfully MYNOCK’s words are communicated when he explains his life to God at the Judgment. I think there are some words that mean exactly what the Inventor means and no one can successfully change the meaning no matter how many people get on the band wagon.
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“What the church doesnt need a problem with is unrepentant adulterers.”
My point exactly, Thorn. When divorced people are allowed to be remarried to others in the SAME churches that refuse to marry a gay couple because it is sin it is hypocrisy – no differnt from the Pharisees. I do note that SOME churches ARE consistent on this issue (the Catholic Church comes to mind – but they have their own legalese way of skirting the issue and engaging in hypocrisy – just ask Newt Gingrich). But most Christian churches do not eject remarried divorcees (nor even criticize them publically and they do not require them to repent their own new “adulterous” marriages. Personally, I have no problem with divorced and remarried or gay people being in my church or any church. I have a problem with the double standard being applied to gays vs the divorced remarried by many churches and people who claim to be Christians.
If you are consistent in your condemnation then I really have no beef with you specifically on this issue. We do not agree in our interperation of what is moral though so I do not condone your viewpoint either.
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Neil,
It is true that everybody is to some degree a hypocrite (including myself). I think that Jesus was pretty clear about his viewpoint on hypocrisy, however. To me, if we are going to truly be repentent sinners we need to start with (or at least include) TRYING to eliminate hypocrisy from our spiritual lives. This means, in this case, examining why my church and I allow and overlook certain sins (sorry but Jesus was very clear on the issue or divorce and remarriage) yet wish to do battle on other similar sins. A consistent approach would be to treat the gay person in your church as you would the divorced and remarried person. I suspect most of us say of the divorced and remarried “that is between you and God and none of my business” – end of story. The subject is largely avoided from the pulpit so as not to point fingers at specific individuals in the community and mostly it is not discussed even when they are being married in the church itself. That would be a good goal for our treatment of gay couples as well, imo. Some churches have adopted just such a policy – these, to me, have gone a long way on the road to repenting the sin of hypocrisy.
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Devo101 is right, and I find it sad how many Christians do not recognize the sin of remarraige after divorce. Jesus answered the whole thing clearly with Matthew 5:31. I hope something in the churches in America changes because, again Biblically speaking, God’s judgement does not fall first on the unbelievers but on the Church first, since it is our job to be a light in this world. If we do not do that, then we bear not only the responsibility of our own hypocrisy but also the actions of those outside the Church as well.
Neil, I find it sad that you leave it to personal interpretation instead of taking God at His Word. When it comes to judgement day, who will be held under more scrutiny, those whom have seen the light, or those who lived in darkness? We will bear responsibility before God for our own hypocrisy, our own sins, and for not showing the world who Christ is by not being like Him. We as disciples of Christ should not leave marriage to be left to personal interpretation, but should leave it to Christ’s interpretation and His reasons for beginning the institution of marriage in the first place.
Do not think about Mynock when He is before God, but think of yourself. I want to quote the Horse and His Boy here, a line by Aslan, where he says no one heres any story but their own story. It is a perfect description of what it will be like on Judgement Day. It is not my place to condemn others for sin nor focus on their sin at the expense of ignoring my own sin. Only He without sin will cast the stones, not us.
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Devo101 – your problem is understand God’s Mercy and Grace in regards to divorce and remarriage. God has a desire for men and women to live in a right relationship, In the bonds of marriage. If a man is beating his wife, she has the right to divorce him. I believe God understand that. If she finds a man that loves, an treats who will love and understand. An they wants to get married, I believe God understands that, and honor that. Relationship. This is your problem, you can not see God in the light.
Versus the unrepentant of the Gay Life Style, which is sexual sin. An God does not permitted it under are reason.
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“Please TRY to answer the question this time, PR. And it DOES go to hypocrisy. You have a double standard here and it is clear to all who have eyes to see or ears to hear”
The Christian understand what I am say. Only non-Christian trying to justify a sinful life see this as a double standard.
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Matthew 5:31-35 (New King James Version)
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery
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Now what does this passage say – divorce and remarred can happen the reason is sexual immorality. When the divorces takes palce because of this the perosn that was cheated on can remarry.
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The idea of adultery of remarried is contect to the reason to why a divorce happens.
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PR, You are the poster child for my argument. You have found a way to excuse in your mind your own hypocrisy. I think Rom116 gets it entirely. Me, I would prefer a policy of “tolerance” (for want of a better word) to resolve the hypocrisy rather than pushing the divorced away from remarriage in order to reclaim the institute. But better that than hypocrisy.
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“Now what does this passage say – divorce and remarred can happen the reason is sexual immorality. When the divorces takes palce because of this the perosn that was cheated on can remarry.”
And if no sexual immorality is involved? They just grow apart and love dies….it happens a great deal nearly everyone I know who is divorced there was no sexual immorality.
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It is clear that divorce is sin. It is not so clear that remarriage is always sin.
Our church does not marry divorced people without question. We have procedures with which we seek to be confident with the couple that the marriage is in fact God’s will.
On the other hand, there is NO ambiguity in the Bible with regard to homosexual behavior, and thus there is no hypocrisy in not condoning it.
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Devo101 – the Word of God is what is speak out against you. The Word of God there is clear.
sexual immorality can happen in may different format. A friend of mine found out after 35 years of marriage her husband was hocked on Porn. That is sexual immorality.
Another friend had a husband that beat her for 20 years. She gave him sex’s out of fear of being beating, that is sexual immorality.
I knew man that lived with verbal abusive from his wife of 10 years. He gave into her wishs sexualy just to keep the peace at the house. That is sexual immorality.
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Neil Evans – I must respectful disagree with you on the issue of divorce being a sin. I believe that divorce is the result of sin.
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PR, are you saying that all divorces are based on sexual immorality? Did I ever say sexual immorality does not exist? Please try to be honest in your argument.
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So, Neil, since the word of Goad is clear on divorce and remarriage – do you only allow it if sexual immorality was involved in the first marriage? You try to make a distinction in what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage (one which He did not make). If we accept this then do you require the person to be remarried to first repent from her first divorce? Do you allow openly divorced people (living a sinful life) to be members of your church?
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“32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery ”
Jesus makes no distinction in anyway what so ever. I know this makes you uncomfortable with your position and for that I am sorry but if you wish to point to scripture to justify the condemnation of one group, at least have the backbone to treat others equally as harsh.
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Devo101 – again you read into my comments what you desire to see. That Fact is my arugement with you from the very begain is God have given reason for divorce and remarriage. An you rejected it. So I will let other deal with you and your justification of sin.
You arugement is not suppported by God’s Word.
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PASTOR ROY, I am simply linking divorce and it’s cause.
DEVO101, Jesus does respond to the Pharisees with this clear statement. The whole of Scripture is not so pointed. i.e.: 1Cor 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
As a matter of fact I do believe that repentance of previous sin is a requirement for remarriage. All the members of our church are sinners. But, we seek to admonish and encourage each other to not sin. And we earnestly seek to do it in a way that is genuinely loving not harsh. It is the unrepentant who would be likely to feel our stand is harsh.
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For the record, I would prefer you treat all people you find lacking from a sinful lifestyle sense the same as you currently treat divorced and remarried couples. That to me is the solution most in line with the intent of scripture from nearly every angle.
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Neil Evans 11.23.10 AT 1:41 PM
PASTOR ROY, I am simply linking divorce and it’s cause.
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I see I am sorry if I miss read your comment.
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But Neil, for a divorced person to live in a second marriage (except for a few notable circumstances) is adultery. In order to repent this sin you must repent your marriage itself. Do you encourage your fellow church members in this situation to repent their adulterous lifestyle marriage as you would anyone who is living a homosexual lifestyle marriage?
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If so, Neil, then I put you in the same category as ROM116. If not…sorry…
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There are notable exceptions where second marriages do seem to be clearly blessed by God. And there are clearly many remarriages that simply continue the sinful lives of the participants.
Righteous living does not involve undoing previous sin and its consequences. It involves living with forgiveness and new commitments to obedience. Anyone living with unrepentant sin whether it be greed, drunkenness, or homosexuality, should be equally admonished to repent and submit to God’s power to change.
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Devo, I think you need to modify just one of your points. The Bible does not just single out specific groups for condemnation, it condemns all of humanity, no matter the background or lifestyle. All have equally fallen short, there is no tier of sinfulness. I cannot say I am better than someone because they sin in an area that I don’t, or vice versa.
Also its not about “tolerance” when pushing divorcees from remarrying anyone but each other, its about honoring the vows you took and about learning to love someone more than yourself. Wedding vows are not to be made lightly like they are made now. As one of my professors put it, marriage is the ultimate over-commitment.
Concerning love dying out, love takes work to maintain. If you don’t maintain it, then you will lose it. Marriage takes serious work and it requires the sacrificing of one’s own needs for the needs of someone else. The reason divorce rates are so high is because many people do not understand this, and several of the few that do don’t see any reason to put in the effort.
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Rom116 – I guess you believe that a woman should stay in a relationship where the husband is beating her or is verbal abusive. In stay of getting a divorce and finding a man that would treaat her like God’s Word tell us a husband is to treat her.
Or get a divorce an live with a nan because, she can not get remarried.
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Or get a divorce an live with a man because he treats her as God’s Word tell us to treat a woman, since she can not get remarried.
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“Righteous living does not involve undoing previous sin and its consequences. It involves living with forgiveness and new commitments to obedience. Anyone living with unrepentant sin whether it be greed, drunkenness, or homosexuality, should be equally admonished to repent and submit to God’s power to change.”
So this really does not answer the issue unless I assume that divorce and remarriage are included in your list – with the notable exception of sexual immorality I suppose. Do you or would you treat all sinners equally?
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PR, I wouldn’t but I think Rom116 would if he is being consistent. I would not, however, and on that issue we agree. The difference between you an me is I would treat this person, all divorced/remarried persons, and all gay couples equally – as I would treat the obese person, the alcoholic, etc.
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the different between you and me, Devo101 is the Word of God. I believe in it you do not.
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DEVO,
All sin is included in my list.
My desire is to treat all sinners equally. However, the appearance of that treatment may vary considerably. I would respond to a man beating his wife differently than I would respond to a glutton.
All sin should be prayerfully, graciously and humbly admonished and offered help. No sin should be simply tolerated. Simple toleration of sin is blindly unloving. God takes sin so seriously that He gave Himself to address it.
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I have no idea where #79 came from. Beating your spouse is marital unfaithfulness. Not sure why you want to put words in mouth. Having an aunt who had an abusive husband, she divorced him and fled for her and her kid’s lives. Has she remarried? No. In this specific scenario brought up by PR, the wife (and husband) in this situation cannot remarry another. Its kind of why you want to be very careful with who you marry. In my family member’s case, my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, several family friends and other extended family were against her going out with that fellow. It is best to listen to those who care for you concerning life-long decisions.
Your wedding vows are permanent. No divorce or “annulment” can undo them. Remarrying simply means you are married to two people, and, in Jesus’s view, would be polygamy. I think this is why Paul said that the elders of the church have to be married only to one wife, as those who, before coming to accept Christ as their savior, who happened to have divorced and remarried before, would be considered to have two spouses. In the case of the women at the well, Jesus said that she had five husbands. Divorce does not end the wedding vows. And thus those who divorce but no sexual immorality was involved should not remarry, if we were to take God’s Word for what it says.
Also where did you come up with the idea I support cohabitation in #80? Seriously
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Neil (Post 46, and others): From Through the Looking Glass, Chapter VI, Humpty Dumpty is speaking: “`When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’”
Ken Bland
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Pastor Roy (83): Careful there, pastor, neither you nor I know enough about Devo101 to declare that he doesn’t believe in the Word of God. Unless he declares that himself we’re skating on pretty thin ice to make that judgment.
Ken Bland
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Amazing, so much for forgiveness of sins and God renewing someone relationship with Him over a failed marriage. I guess Christ did not die for the sins of marring the wrong person. An, their is no forgiveness from it and there is no joy for those who are divorce to experience the true Love and Joy of a True Christian Marriage with someone new who loves them.
They must leave with the tasted for a fail marriage and a fail relationship for the rest of their lives. To tell someone in their 20’s 30’s and 40’s that they must never be marriage because they marriage a wrong person and their marriage fail or they can never have a sexual relationship with someone in God’s wonderful gift of a Christian Marriage.
That is afoul no wonder so many young people want nothing to go with God’s People. I guess, God’s Mercy, Grave and Forgiveness has its limits. I guess the Children to such a person can never experience the Love and Joy of seeing a true Christian Marriage in their own household. This is so sad, and wrong to limit God’s hand in someone life, in regards to past mistakes.
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Not at all Ken, I am skating on strong ice, based on her comments in regard to supporting the sexual sins of homosexuality.
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The Word of God tells us that He is just to forgive us of our sins. An that we become a new person, old things are past away, and that when God forgives us it is done away with.
So, if someone gets married right out of High School an 3 or 4 years late it ends in a Divorce and that person is left with 2 kids. They can never date again or enjoy the a relationship with someone, because of a fail marriage. Those kids can never experience have a mother and father living in the same household. This is sad, God must not be all powerful, He must not able to change people, He must not be able to heal people, God must not be the God of second chances. When it comes to a fail marriage…..
I feel so sorry for those 21 years that married right after high school and got Divorce. To never experience the joy of making love to their husband / wife….. because the person they married the first time has left an is never coming back. They must never date again, or look for a father or mother for their child… The forever must avoid such a relationship.
because of a failed marriage…….
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feel so sorry for those 21 years OLD that married right after high school and got Divorce. To never experience the joy of making love to their husband / wife….. because the person they married the first time has left an is never coming back. They must never date again, or look for a father or mother for their child… The forever must avoid such a relationship.
because of a failed marriage, Are you sure you want to burden somone in such way?
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Apparently Pastor Roy, you have never heard of trying to restore one’s marriage. But I find it sad that a man in a position of authority in the church is denying that marriage is until death, and accepting something that Jesus Himself clearly stated was a sin. We have indeed strayed far as a country, but how is the church supposed to stand against the evil in this world if they accept sin as something of God?
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Rom116 so you are willing to burden down a 21 year old for the rest of their life, because of failed marriage. As for God restoring marriage, yes He can… But you have condemn these poor people whose marriage is not restored with such burden, that they can never enjoy life of marriage again…
So you must believe that God is not all powerful, an can not forgive all sins, that He does hold certain sins against people… You and God are willing to condemn that person to being a single mother or father for the rest of their life as such a young age…..
Are you sure God would do that to someone? Are you sure those passages are mention to condemn someone to such a relationship….. Last time I look God is frees us from burden not load us down with a burden.
There is a different between living in a theology world and living in a real world. I guess that is why I am a pastor not a theologian. I deal with real people with real problems, look for God help
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You talk as if God being against someone remarrying since they are already married means that God does not forgive. Any believer know your statement in 93 is false. My 13 year old brother knows this. Marriage is not a sin, though you act like it is. God can’t forgive you for marrying someone, as marrying is not a sin. God is not condemning anyone through marriage. It is up to the two people to grow up and mature, in order to learn to sacrifice their wants and their desires for the good of another. Marriage is a burden, in the New Testament, it is compared to a yoke. You are taking responsibility when you marry someone, you are taking on the responsibility to meet this person’s needs.
I know people whom have married, where their spouses left them, and who then decided to use their life for what God desired. One example would be a close friend of the family, whose husband left here a long time ago. She dedicated her life to teaching the younger women in the church, and to the care of the elderly. She is now a leader in reform for nursing homes. Even when her husband remarried and committed adultery, she chose the path that Paul recommended in 1st Corinthians, in dedicating the rest of her life to the work God had for her. Even after her husband died, she continued doing what God had for her. I know several others who have done the same, and I know several more who reconciled with their spouses over time.
Preaching or supporting Christians to disobey God and remarry someone else is wrong, and it will have consequences, on the kids from the previous marriages, on the spouses left in the dust, and it will be a stain on the witness of the church. I deal with the real world, and I see the hell people create by breaking their wedding vows, marrying multiple people, and living their lives for themselves, living for what they want instead of what God wants.
This is why the Church is failing in defending marriage in the public square, because we have defiled it in the church, debasing it from being a physical reflection or mirror of the love between God and His people to being a vehicle for our own personal happiness.
When it comes to condemning, I am not condemning anyone. Marriage is for life, and if you foolishly marry someone you know you shouldn’t, you are condemning yourself. But even in that situation God can intervene, and I have seen Him intervene. If any two people are willing to work to care for each other more than themselves, their marriage will work.
To end this post, two wrongs do not make a right. Divorce is something God hates, and to marry someone else after it does not make the situation better, it simply creates a mess, even more so when children are involved.
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Pastor, Rom, and Neil:
I think that Devo is pointing out the tendency of evangelicals to extend grace to heterosexual couples living in sinful relationships, while failing to extend a similar degree of grace to same-sex couples who are living in sinful relationships.
If we are willing to tolerate (and grant legal recognition to) sinful opposite-sex marriages, why shouldn’t committed same-sex couples also benefit from our graciousness towards those who commit fornication with members of the opposite sex?
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It is not an extension of grace, it is ignoring scripture and the original divine purpose of marriage. The thing is RSD, not all evangelicals have that double standard, but sadly far too many do. What makes sinful opposite sex relations somehow “better” and “more forgivable” than sinful same sex relations? Biblically, nothing, but sadly many Christians are choosing what sins to recognize and which ones to ignore. No good comes out of that.
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This conversation is a good illustration of the failure of #50 “words mean what they successfully mean.” We are not having much success here because we are each bound to our own definitions.
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Neil, you can lead a horse to water……
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Wrong water.
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You talk as if God being against someone remarrying since they are already married means that God does not forgive. Any believer know your statement in 93 is false.-
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well is that not what you are saying here?
“Preaching or supporting Christians to disobey God and remarry someone else is wrong, and it will have consequences, on the kids from the previous marriages, on the spouses left in the dust, and it will be a stain on the witness of the church. I deal with the real world, and I see the hell people create by breaking their wedding vows, marrying multiple people, and living their lives for themselves, living for what they want instead of what God wants. ”
You are saying someone who is 21 an had a fail marriage at a young age can never remarried unless it is back with the person they had the failed marraige with… Now can God heal that marraige, yes. But if one person does not want to be held you are burden the other one down to life with out a husband or father…. An God does not burden people like that.. He lift the burden off of people..
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It sadden me, that people would desire my 23 year old Nieces never to date again or find happiness in marriage, You see she was 18 when she got married, right out of high school. The marriage ended when she was 21 years old. So tell her she must wait at home never date, never look to a long term relationship, never hope to have loving husband and children. That she must wait for the man that left that ended her marriage to get his life right with God and return to her. (Can God bring him back yes.. If that man permitted it. ) Is wrong God wants her to live her life not wait for someone.
Some you here want this 23 year young woman, to sit at home and wait for a man that may never come back. She can never date, the reason dating leads to a relationship, which can lead to marriage… An per some of you here, if that happens, she is living in sin and can never come to God.
The reason I know this, right after her divorce, she went to a church looking for help in understand what happen. She was told the same garbage being presented here, by some of you. She left that church an never went back. I spoke with her about it, She told me if God can not permitted her to date and find a man that will treat her with love and respect, she wants nothing to do with God.
I told her God understand what happens in her first marriage, it sadden Him that it ended in Divorce. But He understand what happen and He wants her to be happy and not live in life she was in. He wants her to have a husband that will love Her and respect Her not rule over her. The sad part is I could help her understand it, because of people like Rom116. That would put such a requirement on someone, that it becomes an overwhelming burden.
In stead of helping her and other, to understand what has happen to their lives, an give them hope, an showing them God understand and can help them threw this bad time in their life. You want to condemn them to a life of waiting for man or woman that may never return to them. That is outrages….
I am leave these board for awhile, it sadden me of the lack of compassion for lost souls, that desires to have someone love them and help them to understand what has happen to their lives, but all they get from some who call themselves Christian is condemnation. I am leave here will little or no respect for some you on this site. I amy come back nexts week, I may not. I am takes this time to seek God and ask Him is it worth my time and effort to be here on this site.
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Walters asked: “What about this pastor in Georgia who recently came out as gay?
Sounds like he is an unrepentant sinner and is not only disqualified to be a pastor but has given up authentic Christianity altogether. Next question.
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Joy Behar is correct that homosexuality leads to bullying. Many homosexuals are vicious in the way they bully others, even children. It is shameful.
But of course, bullying is not a choice. They were born to be bullies and they just cannot help it.
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#101: Reading what you wrote, it sounds almost verbatim like the argument some folks occasionally give for the acceptability of homosexuality. The fact is that God calls people to things that are hard. Regardless of what the Bible actually says about divorce and remarriage, “because it would make someone’s life really hard” isn’t a good argument either way.
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I would like to ask you all your opinion about something. My husband and I know a married couple where there has not been any actual affair, but the husband views pornography regularly with an unrepentant attitude. He has turned away from his faith. His wife has tried for years and years to bring help and healing into their situation. She now wants to divorce him. Would you consider a spouse that regularly views pornography but has not actually engaged in an affair with a live person as sexual immorality justifying a divorce? I am not sure what I think about this, and I am unsure what to tell her.
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Forgot to mention in #105 that the husband refused to have sex with her.
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I agree with Buddyglass here, he worded it well. Life is hard. One thing Jesus promised us was suffering. He did not promise to make life easy, nor did He promise to give us a life where all our desires are fulfilled. I know many who have suffered far more than your niece, pastor Roy, and I know some who ended up never marrying, even though they wanted to, but God didn’t. I know several who came out of broken marriages, some who re-conciliated others who still are single. Paul said to dedicate our time of singleness fully to God, which is why Paul preferred it over marriage. I know several who have dedicated their lives to God’s work, and I have seen God take people from a failed marriage and made good come out of a hellish situation.
The issue is not our own personal happiness, the issue is whether or not we will take God’s plans and desires over our own. This life is not about me, it is not about my desires being fulfilled, it is not about my own happiness. It is about learning to walk like our Lord did, and doing the work He has for us, and learning about the Higher Love, and learning to love others like He loved us. Many of us will learn through marriage to sacrifice ourselves for another, but not all.
But concerning failed marriages, they fail usually because both (more so than just one or the other) were unable to sacrifice their own desires for the other. Marriage is about sacrifice, not our own happiness. Indeed when both sacrifice for each other, they both will be happy, but personal happiness is not the goal of marriage, at least not from the Bible’s perspective. No where does it say that marriage exists for that reason.
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Mamawit, that is sexual immorality. If he is completely unrepentant, then your friend should leave. Also he is refusing sex, which is sexual immorality, that would be Paul who said so in 1 Corinthians, I can find it later.
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Its 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.
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I don’t know the whole story Mamwit, and I don’t think this would be the place to discuss someone’s personal situation, but if her husband is unrepentant and denying her conjugal rights, to use Paul’s words, and has been doing this for years, and your friend has tried outside help for him, then I highly recommend her leaving. That may (emphasis on may, it may not) wake him up, and if it does, I would not recommend her going back until he has not only repented but has proved himself worthy of her trust. Either way it would be better for her to be out of there.
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Rom116, thank you for your input. She already did a seperation years ago. I repented for a time and she let him back. Things are back to how they were. I agree that we can’t discuss someone’s personal situation here. I guess I brought up their specific situation because it is the main situation, but not the only one unfortunately, that I know of that has raised this question in my mind. Apart from their specific situation, I am asking if a believer should consider the ongoing viewing of pornography as a behavior that would qualify as “marital unfaithfulness” and justifying a divorce (not just a seperation until the person repents)?
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#111 Should say “He repented for a time and she let him back.”
Does everyone else on here experience typing something and then seeing that it somehow gets changed once they hit post?
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If it is ongoing and the husband or wife is refusing to come clean or repeat, possibly. But if they take it up a notch and refuse sex, then that would be a more solid yes.
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It would be a rare husband who has not committed adultery in the sense of “looking on a woman to lust after her.” Habitual viewing of porn would fit at the top of that category. I don’t think that in itself would Biblically justify divorce. MAMAWIT’s question demonstrates the great danger in making categorical judgments in the application of Biblical principles to human relationships. We rarely know near as much as we think we do about a situation. An accountable counseling relationship with qualified people would be a much more Biblical answer than separation or divorce. Of course I am assuming that there is no physical danger in the home. See, we rarely know enough to answer such questions with a quick pat answer.
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Buddyglass,
I did not get what you got from #101 at all.
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Mamawit,
It may interest you to know that the word Jesus used in passages where he forbids divorce “except for sexual immorality,” is “pornea.”
But every case must still be considered and approached personally and individually. Principles can be applied but not in a way that is blind to the independent circumstances of any particular couple. In the case you mentioned, I think a first step could be separation (divorce may not be the best first option) and a patient season of prayer and efforts for restoration or reconciliation. It may not work out but rushing to divorce is still not often advisable.
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Oops, I had not read Mamawit’s subsequent post.
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Are you saying that if someone has an affair, their spouse is absolutely biblically justified in seeking a divorce, but if the spouse is “merely” engaged in pornography, the other spouse may or may not be justified in seeking a divorce? In other words, the viewing of pornography is not definately marital unfaithfulness, and it would take a trained counselor to determine that?
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By the way, I am asking my question not just because of the situation I mentioned. I just want to know what the parameters on “marital unfaithfulness” are.
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JANIE B.
GREAT ANSWERS for The View, assuming you got a word in AT ALL.
And if you were able to talk faster and louder than the misguided women on The View, they would probably just walk out.
Can’t watch that show. Not only are they RUDE to “guests”. Who can listen to several people talking at the same time. It blows my A.D.D. and TINNITUS right off the charts.
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I don’t think divorce is ever God’s best desire. He can rescue any marriage. There are many things that could be described as unfaithfulness. It doesn’t take a counselor to determine unfaithfulness. I simply suggested a counselor as an outside person who might be able to help people who want to heal their marriage. It is never easy and simply telling people that they can or cannot do something is rarely helpful.
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