Evangelicalism’s bitter 20-somethings
Is it me or does it seem that many kids reared in affluent conservative evangelical communities become bitter people in their 20s? I’ve recently read blog posts and articles by 20-somethings reared in suburban evangelicalism that seem to be committed to doing one thing: attacking the very community that raised them and doing it bitterly. I call them “the Bitters.”
How the Bitters communicate fits Ronald Inglehart’s thesis from the early 1970s about post-materialist young people. Inglehart wrote that when children grow up in abundance, like many suburban evangelical kids, they are more concerned as young adults with “self-expression” than they are hard work and survival—the concerns of those who grew up struggling with scarcity.
Adding to that, Bill Bishop, in The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart, writes that children of abundance become post-materialist young adults who lose interest in organized religion and become increasingly focused on personal spirituality. Economic growth and military security decline in political importance and are replaced by issues like personal freedom, abortion rights, social justice, and the environment. These young adults are less inclined to obey central authority and lose trust in hierarchical institutions. Finally, they harbor resentment for the big organizations that created America’s modern, industrial society: big business, traditional church denominations, traditional family structures, and so on.
The Bitters, who tend to gravitate toward Christian hipster culture, are on a mission to expose the “conservative conspiracy” wherever they can find it (or create it) under the guise of “healthy critique.” Bitters define themselves by what they are not. If their parents are Republicans they become staunch Democrats. If their parents are in a conservative church, Bitters will find a more liberal church. Bitters choose “the left” because it’s not “the right.” There is no greater sin for Bitters than sounding like you might be “conservative.”
To define one’s identity in terms of being “not like them” seems cowardly. The longing for self-expression Inglehart discussed in his thesis may be a longing to be heard and affirmed, because many kids of affluence are ignored in homes where meaningful participation in family life is communicated as optional. Bitters likely feel deeply insignificant, like they don’t matter. They probably weren’t “cool” in high school. Craving affirmation, Bitters want someone to pay attention to them—finally. The easiest way get attention is to protest things dear to the hearts of their elders. “You’re paying attention now aren’t you,” the Bitter protests. The great irony is that Bitters still want connection to their formerly conservative communities. If you’re really “done” with something you don’t waste time attacking it; you just ignore it and leave it alone. I could be wrong about the Bitters. I hope so. But what I do see is a group of 20-somethings wasting their time on a quest that will never deliver the revolution that it promises. You are what you are, not what you are not.

















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back to top138 Comments to “Evangelicalism’s bitter 20-somethings”
What you are describing is what we used to call “spoiled rotten”. Couple this with the young adult need to define one’s self and a bit of social gospel activism and “Voilà!”, you’ve got a little self-absorbed monster on your hands.
The good news is that I’ve seen some solid young adults who work hard and aren’t spoiled, though not enough I am afraid.
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We saw a lot of this in the 1960’s and though some good came out of it, (the civil rights movement) it eventually became of a matter of change for change’s sake. A lot of babies got thrown out with the bathwater.
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I feel like there’s a wide range of home and community environments that get lumped under the banner of “evangelical”. Some are healthy. Some are toxic. It seems reasonable to me that a kid raised in a highly materialistic home infused with a self-righteous superficial plasticized Christianity would end up bitter towards that sort of environment.
As for why young Christians may be rejecting the Republican party, I’d say that’s because, rightly or wrongly, it has come to be perceived as the anti-homosexual, anti-poor, anti-civil-liberties, pro-wasteful-war, pro-wasteful-defense-spending, anti-environmental-protection, let-corporate-america-get-away-with-murder party.
About the only things that attract me to the Republican party are that its members are largely pro-life (though in a one-sided way that’s not optimal) and the party is marginally (and I can’t stress the word “marginally” enough) more serious about addressing the country’s fiscal ills.
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I find much to agree with in Friedersdorf’s piece “How the GOP can win my vote in 2012“.
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It’s all because of video games…
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1. Xion – nailed it. Very insightful, Mr. Bradley! It’s come to our attention now because there didn’t used to be so MANY spoiled brats. The prosperity of the 80’s and 90’s has given us a whole lot more brats to contend with. There are a few great, hard-working, conservative young folks out there – what I like to call, “those who understand the REAL world” whom we might call The Betters. They are voting, marching for life, and working to make this country Better while their Bitter peers waste their lives on self-focused angst.
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Parents are overprotective in this era. Kids are babysat thru their 20s. They are taken everywhere, to do everything.
Generation Y will work hard, for what they believe in. So give them something to believe in is key (this is all the liberals have done). They dont like to do it 8 to 5 on a schedule, but dont mistake that for laziness.
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The essay wasn’t about Republicans, now was it? That’s getting very old, but we all understand that Leftys have no comprehension of reality.
Xion has nailed it indeed. All of a sudden these people have to find jobs and they are shocked, shocked, that life isn’t as easy as it was growing up. There is a sense of entitlement. There is a new lawyer in NJ who is suing because he can’t get a job. Unbelievable. Perhaps this is why we are suffering through this economic downturn so that it affects the young enough that they figure things out.
And let’s make one thing clear — it has been the Democrats who have failed in the past two years while in power to stop the banks and the corporations. They bailed them out, and their so-called reform legislation hasn’t done one thing to end too big to fail. I am really tired of Leftys not admitting that they run corporations, too, and that they are taking advantage of America. But Dems and Leftys like to lie.
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The Dems are the ones who refuse to see that the country is on the verge of bankruptcy.
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Anthony Bradley wrote; “I could be wrong about the Bitters. I hope so.”
You’re not wrong, Anthoney. There are exceptions, of course, but your generalizations are fair. You’ve nailed it.
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I think Anthony is right about still wanting to be connected, too. The church I grew up in was conservative and had “rules.” It had nepotism, too, which was wrong. There is a website for the unhappy to complain about things, but what amazes me is that they just can’t let go. If it was soooooo awful growing up, why would you care to hang on? They are older than those Anthony is talking about, but they are bitter, too.
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A few years ago, I read a book titled: “Blue Like Jazz.” It appealed enormously to young evangelicals and I think it added to the bitterness trend that Anthony has observed. It was full of apologies for Christianity and the church and also of appeals to feelings and “spirituality.” Young people ate it up.
Here’s a book review (with both compliments and criticisms) I published in response to “Blue Like Jazz”:
http://www.campuscrosswalk.org/2005-fall-16.html
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In 2003, around Thanksgiving, I read an article by Hans Zeiger who was president of the Scout Honor Coalition and a student at Hillsdale College in Michigan. He nailed it too, and he was referring to his own generation (”Gen Y”). Conisder:
* “A typical, middle-class 18-year-old is endowed with a fairly new car with a fancy stereo system, a cellphone, his own television, a college education paid for by his parents and the government, access to fast food 24 hours a day, a laptop computer with Internet access, a ticket to the R-rated movie on Friday night, cultural license to engage in gratuitous sex, political license to attain an abortion, and social independence whereby he or she can easily avoid the constraints of organized religion.” ~ Hans Zeiger, Op-ed titled; “The Thankless Generation.” (November 24, 2003).
* “The problem is not that we have nothing to be thankful for. The problem is that we have forgotten whom to thank. In short, we have forgotten God.” ~ Hans Zeiger, Nov. 24, 2003.
* “Only 30 percent of American high-school seniors consider religion very important, according to the 2002 National Study of Youth and Religion conducted by researchers at the University of North Carolina. That leaves 70 percent of us not caring about the source of our blessings.” ~ Hans Zeiger, Nov. 24, 2003.
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Now consider Abraham Lincoln’s famous Proclamation of Thanksgiving during the midst of the Civil War:
* “We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthen us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!”
Okay, so maybe this problem is not so new or original.
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Sin
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It isn’t. And it isn’t just evangelical kids. It’s kids all around.
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Maybe young people are leaving because the affluent conservative evangelical lifestyle is not fulfilling or appealing.
It’s too easy to say, “oh, they’re just bitter.” There are grave problems with the way conservative evangelicalism has wedded itself to the values of the Republican party. Some of these problems stem from the content of those values (militant nationalism and disdain for the poor and the outcast), but many of them result from the very fact that Jesus has been misappropriated as just another pitchman.
For example, I’m not sure if the website jesushatesobama.com is satirical or serious, but either way it captures an unfortunate profaning (in the truest sense of the word) that has a long history in evangelical politics.
BTW, great article, Buddy. He expresses a lot of my thinking, too.
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“I’d say that’s because, rightly or wrongly, it has come to be perceived as the anti-homosexual, anti-poor, anti-civil-liberties, pro-wasteful-war, pro-wasteful-defense-spending, anti-environmental-protection, let-corporate-america-get-away-with-murder party.”
Young people are more likely to fall for media hype and emotional manipulation, especially if it is attached to being “cool”, and in the “in crowd” (I don’t know what the current words for “cool” and “with it” are, as I don’t care). They have a great fear of not fitting in and want to be accepted. The left has always exploited that.
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If there is one secular truth I can convey to my son it is that more stupidity has been committed in the name of “cool” than almost any concept known to man.
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Ok y’all help me out here. All through February I am teaching our young adult group at church. What do you think I should teach on? Of course I have something I have prepared, just curious here.
I live in an affluent suburb, we do have these bitters Anthony speaks of and they break down into two fairly delineated groups. Those who have been given every resourse and nothing to do with it and the grown children of authoritarian, over-protective parents many of them homeschooled.(not all homeschool parents over-protect).
My daughter had a friend whose father wrote a lot of the worship songs we all sang in the 90s. when this girl tried to commit suicide her folks bought her a Mercedes convertible. They said to us, “If you had a car like that, why would you want to commit suicide.” (And you guessed it, it didn’t fix the problem).
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I once read an epitaph on a tombstone in South Texas for a man who died in the 19th century that said it all: “He suffered much and murmured not.”
The epitaph for many of us today would be, “He suffered little and murmured much.”
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Joel Mark, I enjoyed the review.
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The soil from which Christian gratitude grows is the forgiveness of our sins found at the foot of the cross. If, however, you have embraced a Christianity that allowed you to avoid a genuine confrontation with YOUR sins (the sins Jesus died for) and rush straight into presumptions of God’s love and grace, then that fertile soil becomes rather stagnate and polluted with spiritual pride and bitterness over the sins OF OTHERS. Life without repentance is the ultimate root of bitterness, regardless of your age, circumstances or labels you claim, including the label “Christian.”
Gratitude changes everything. An ungrateful heart will always be filled with resentment rooted in a pride that presumes greater blessings than those you were given are deserved. Regardless of the blessings in your life, you are still often angry and sullen.
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I read recently that the emerging church movement is coming to an end. When the most significant characteristic of a movement is “We do church differently than our parents”, it can’t survive when its own children come of age.
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As usual, the Left thinks this is all about politics. It’s not.
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20. Teach them service. Not just in theory but give them something to do. Write to a soldier, pay the person behind you at a drive-in’s bill, do a chore without being asked and without getting credit, befriend a nerd.
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I don’t argue with Mr. Bradley’s assessment. And I agree with most of what the commenters have said too, but speaking as a member of the generation, I’d like to pass along some hope.
In my mid-20’s observation, the “Bitters” that don’t reject Christianity outright tend to gravitate toward the emergent movement. I was attending a Christian college a few years ago when the emergent movement was at its peak, and I was frustrated that more of my peers didn’t see through it for the shallow, repackaged liberal theology it is. Like JoelMark, I also read Blue Like Jazz (and thought I must be the only 20-something who wasn’t impressed). As I looked into the issues, I came across the book Young, Restless, and Reformed, which makes an encouraging case that there’s a resurgence of traditional, solid, Reformed theology among my generation. Many of us who were spoon-fed on self-esteem Christianity crave deeper truths, and the book shows that large numbers of us are quietly finding them in Reformed theology.
For example, the Acts 29 church planting network, which emphasizes solid theology and missional living, is growing explosively worldwide, and lots of young people are being discipled and taught to live radically for Christ in these churches. God is working mightily in it. In my own church (which is an Acts 29 plant), the average age of attendance is probably 30 (if we don’t count the children), and what we need are more mature Christians to come in and mentor us young people.
Many of us are going out, making disciples, quietly working at jobs or staying home raising our young children, and craving the mentorship we did not receive from our parents (the late Boomers or early Gen-X’ers). So be encouraged that there are more of us out here than it seems, and if the Lord leads you to, please find us and mentor us (even though I know it’s easier to sit back and bemoan the sorry state of most of my generation, which is sorry indeed!).
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Well spoken Solideo.
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Adios, I agree with KBELLS – teach them service. Better yet, show them service.
Other ideas: Ask them what they want to know. They could write anonymous notes if necessary.
Teach them how to make good decisions based on their goals and values and biblical principles. They can use that skill for life.
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Adios, how about studying the lives of the saints of the church that are commemorated in February? I know of a book and a website with information for the month if that would be useful to you. Learning about people who gave their very selves (sometimes in martyrdom) has been helping our children learn gratitude and focus in regard to dealing with the temptations and trials of this world.
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Adios 20, teach them Psalm 139. The value of humans. When they understand the immensity of those thoughts they will not be help to help but serve.
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Nah, Adios. Read them JM’s sermonette about how worthless they are. And XION’s excoriation of them as “monsters”.
And be sure to tell them that regardless of what they now believe, folks like those will be avidly seeking to force the state to enact laws enforcing the beliefs which they involuntarily adopted as children. That ought to straighten them out and shut them up.
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As a 20-something who (thinks he) is part of the exception that proves the general rule, let me submit another cause: churches who have the finances to create a sub-culture within the church for their high schoolers and college students. The youth pastors have a different direction, generally, than the rest of the church (more fun, yet more socially concerned), and when the students are supposed to become a part of the church as an adult, they are repeled by the different focus and have not yet gained the spiritual maturity to understand what it means to abide in Christ. Thus, their churches are abandoned as out-of-touch, and the parents’ political motivations are abandoned as well. (College affects this too, but this is just one of the issues.)
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Well, two have provided hope.
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Very, very well said joel mark
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I am a so-called ‘bitter’ who has never before read such a chain of bitter thoughts in my entire life. Step into a 20-something’s bitter shoes for a moment, and read the article and following comments again, try to see them in a different light. Now, would you be gung-ho about your elders (if these are a sampling of them) and stick by the beliefs that the author and commentators claim as the right way? If, as I have interpreted, the issue here is young people turning from their conservative churches and perhaps parents in favor of a ‘Christian Hipster Culture,’ then I in fact see no problem. Is not a person’s innermost faith and relationship with Jesus Christ the one and only thing that ultimately matters? Have a little faith in us, people, we are young, we are different, sure, but we are not hopeless. The beliefs of every generation are evolving, but Christ remains at the center. Thing of the ‘Christian Hipsters’ that have dissented from the conservative norm since centuries. Peter comes to mind, as do many of the apostles. Martin Luther, John Calvin, you name it. In order for the church to not become stagnant, it is always changing. Nobody needs to be threatened by a 20-something Democrat who professes faith in Jesus Christ. Believe it or not, you can have both. People, come on, think about it. Planks in your eyes much? You talk about a generation who complains of the ‘conservative conspiracy’ and under the guise of ‘healthy critique’ exposes it. What is this article if not a counter-attack? How can you expect to win young Christians to your cause with such cynical thoughts and pessimistic expectations? cont’d…
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Young people need to be challenged and inspired to seek after God with their whole heart and attempt great things for God. This should be happening throughout the teen years. If a teenager has a relationship with God that is deep and grounded in solid teaching and life application, then even when he starts to question “the establishment”, those truths remain.
Of course, before kids can be taught to apply the truths of God’s Word to their lives, more adults need to start doing it!
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Teenagers and 20 somethings should be allowed to question the sacred cows of the church and challenged to find out what Scripture teaches.
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I hate to sounds like a neon bracelet, but what would Jesus do? Sit around online bemoaning the young generation? Or walk among them, mentor them, and learn from them?
One thing that will certainly make me live up to my name as a bitter, but must be said, is that Republican does not equal Christian. Economic growth and military security are not synonymous with good Christian living. They both, in fact, sometimes exacerbate the problems that are bemoaned by all of the above.
Also, since when did acts of service become paying for someone’s fast food and befriending a nerd at school? Very nice things to do, don’t get me wrong. But that is service that only coddles the spoiled generation you speak of. Get your hands dirty, break a sweat, see what it’s like to live with nothing but a sheet of corrugated metal for a roof, give away your money. Get uncomfortable. In my experience, this kind of service is what many of the ‘hipster’s are practicing. Maybe they don’t go to church every Sunday or give a 10% tithe, but they are out there, giving their all, loving Jesus, serving as he served. Perhaps you all should get out there and look for them, if you believe we are a hopeless generation.
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In conclusion, I would like to point out that straying from the accepted rules, regulations, and expectations of a conservative church body does not equate a lost and hopeless generation. What is faith if you have not found it for yourself? What is more dangerous — lemming-like obedience or coming to conclusions through your own independent journey with Christ?
I think we can all agree that what is important has nothing to do with politics, money, or ‘hipster’ culture. At the root of it all, if there is sound faith in Christ, then the outside appearance does not matter.
I appeal to you all to open your minds.
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#36 “Is not a person’s innermost faith and relationship with Jesus Christ the one and only thing that ultimately matters?”
Since this is true, why is that person “bitter”?
Please open my mind to help me understand your bitterness, sir or madam. We want to hear you!
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#40. “At the root of it all, if there is sound faith in Christ, then the outside appearance does not matter.”
If there is a sound faith in Christ, the outside appearance will change dramatically, since the fruit of the Spirit (the results of His work) is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. Where does bitterness fit here? This is not to put you down, sir.
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They/we are ‘bitter’ (which is a term defined by the author of the article, a term that I use sarcastically and that I seek to alter) because we get nagged and picked on by people who say that ‘our’ way of living and believing is somehow wrong. And to be honest, we are not bitter, and live life quite happily, until we come across articles like this one which try to squish us back into a box that we just don’t fit into. And I am not talking about one group of people that act or behave a certain way, but all people old and young out there who are alternative, or different, or push the edge of music and art and politics and speech and service. The path makers and the leaders who aren’t afraid to question the norm or stir up discussion. Sometimes I think the most healthy thing is discomfort.. it makes you examine yourself.
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It’s honestly not a teaching problem.
I think kids, and this is true as it was back in older generations days is that they do not see their parents sin and repentance. Couple that with being free of parents and off to college with no safeguards, and they readily decend away from their parents beliefs.
Look at guys like Zeller, most like him cry hypocrisy. Most as a result of other issues, but it doesnt change the impression of his parents that he was getting, right or wrong, that he readily saw their sin, but never their humility and repentance.
This is what I’ve run into at least when talking to others from the nintendo generation Y like him.
Calling them bitter doesnt help.
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# 42. “If there is a sound faith in Christ, the outside appearance will change dramatically, since the fruit of the Spirit (the results of His work) is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. Where does bitterness fit here? This is not to put you down, sir.”
By outside appearance I refer to what the author labels ‘hipster’ and ‘liberal’ and lacking belief in conservative standards or expectations. I mean that some people attend Bible studies, some people scream their love from the street, some play heavy metal music and some sit on a dirt floor in a mud hut just to give someone comfort. Some have piercings and tattoos, others don’t. But these are not (necessarily or universally) cries for attention, but expressions of personality, which is one of the greatest attributes God gave to man: individuality & unique beauty and taste.
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I haven’t read the comments yet, but I can think of a few people that would fall into that category that troll around here.
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“Sometimes I think the most healthy thing is discomfort.. it makes you examine yourself.”
True, I would advise you though, that stereotyping republicans or others here, is no better. You only lend evidence of being bitter.
Most are not. Most do the things you think are great, like questioning the norm, going that extra mile not just to help someone, but to actually invest their lives in others. Many Dems are this way as well, even if for different reasons.
I am a Gen Y’er. I’ve stuck with the conservative side of politics, because there hasnt been a Dem who could ever show me that the government can replace what you want the individual to be doing. Instead of tossing in politics we should be challenging the individual and enabling the people, rather than stripping them of that opporunity by placing the burdens upon the government.
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I think that to label any age group is misleading. It will always be inaccurate and in fact lead to mislabeling individuals in the group.
It seems to be human nature to seek a comfort level and others to share it with. More Christians in the comfortable categories should ask the hard questions of “is this really Biblical?”; and “is this what our Head really wants us to do?” If we asked the questions ourselves we may not be so alarmed when our young people do. And, we may have better answers. If it is not a struggle to answer the question “what does it mean to be in the world but not of it,” we have not really asked the question.
Thanks SOLIDEO and FORTHEYOUNGPP for your challenging comments.
AJISUNN, I second your comments.
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#20, Adios: Teach them the truths of scripture. I think part of the problem of “the bitters” falling away or being bitter is that they were never properly catechized. They probably grew up in churches that tried using gimmicks and topics to teach them instead of solid, biblical teachings.
Focus on God’s Word: teach them how the OT weaves the salvation story up to the life of Jesus, how Genesis lays out a clear foundation of how God desires people to interact in their relationships. Give them real, meaty teachings. Don’t talk about themes that Bible verses may fit into just because they are pop culture. Tackle the doctrines that they need to learn to be godly adults in this sinful world.
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#32 – Arcadia cannot resist the temptation to try to be me, or at least try to speak for me. He/she misses or distorts my point every time. But Arcadia, I missed the “sermonette” to which you referred above at #32. Where was it?
My comments affirms a problem (with many exceptions, of course) also lent credence to the notion that these bitterness trends are not really new.
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I still dont think its a teaching problem.
Even in my church, despite having probably 500 plus members…I bet at most 1/3rd are involved.
Where are the elder generations, leading and serving?
When it is so hard to find them, its no wonder the younger generation doesnt believe what they teach.
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Audios, whatever you decide to teach them, don’t give them a Christianity that side-steps genuine repentance. Repentance & forgiveness (2 sides of one coin, so to speak) is the soil from which real love grows.
Try Luke 7:36-50, especially verse 47 where Jesus said (of a sinful woman who crashed a Pharisees dinner party), “…her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
The secrets of Christian humilty and gratitude lurk within this passage.
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JM,
You hit it on the head. I think so many kids never see their parents or elders in repentance. The masks they wear to guard their “imperfections” do more damage to their kids than Beavis and Butthead…
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Solideo,
You are correct about their gravitation toward the Emergent movement.
Good comments. I feel the hope.
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Good post, #52, Joel Mark.
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#47 “True, I would advise you though, that stereotyping republicans or others here, is no better. You only lend evidence of being bitter. Most are not. Most do the things you think are great, like questioning the norm, going that extra mile not just to help someone, but to actually invest their lives in others. Many Dems are this way as well, even if for different reasons.I am a Gen Y’er. I’ve stuck with the conservative side of politics, because there hasnt been a Dem who could ever show me that the government can replace what you want the individual to be doing. Instead of tossing in politics we should be challenging the individual and enabling the people, rather than stripping them of that opporunity by placing the burdens upon the government.”
Thorn, while your points on stereotyping are right, my argument has nothing to do with politics. I was trying to counter the comments who made it about politics, by pointing out that both ends of the political spectrum are compatible with Jesus Christ, and military strength or economic growth are utterly irrelevant to what is inside someone’s heart. You proved the point I am trying to counter. I would love to hear your thoughts without political commentary.
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I have said this before (and in response to a previous article written by Mr. Bradley). I do not agree with lumping young people into a category i.e. “The Bitters”. It’s way too convenient rather than addressing individual problems (of which we all have an abundance).
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FORTHEYOUNGPPL wrote; “The beliefs of every generation are evolving, but Christ remains at the center.”
GREAT!!! However, Christ is not at the center if… (the “if” is big in all the points below):
* …we are willing to let pop-culture drive our understadning of Christ and Christianity (something many other generations have sadly done).
* …we, in large numbers, defy God’s clear definition of marriage to suit some group’s preferences or feelings.
* …we don’t see anything wrong with replacing repentance with pride and excuses with regard to the sins of homosexuality, fornication, adultery and bisexuality.
* …we continue to cohabitate sexually without the commitment that marriage ordains and then continue to have so many babies out of wedlock.
* …our public and private speech is full of filth, profanity and vulgarity (a reflection of our hearts).
* …we relish pornography.
* …we go silent in the face of the abortion industry and allow deceivers to call it a “choice.” Slavery was a “choice” and we do not excuse that! When Christ is at the center, human life is SACRED!
________________
Every generation has their sinners and their justifiers of sin. But in those cases above and many others, regardless of your age or generation, Christ is not at the center.
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From Anthony’s original post (describing a point made by Bill Bishop): “…children of abundance become post-materialist young adults who lose interest in organized religion and become increasingly focused on personal spirituality.”
Maybe some get this from the ‘material girl’ herself:
“I don’t think there is anything wrong with the teachings of Jesus, but I am suspicious of organized religion.” ~ Madonna.
Why is it that those who complain about organized religion are often quite supportive of organized education? The human body is organized. So are family dinners. Why is it controversial for religion to be organized?
Madonna also believes that “all paths lead to God.”
However, human slavery to sin is more like a disease than a path. We would never go to a doctor who claimed that all medicines lead to the same cure. When a snake bites us, we are not comforted by the claim that all snakes are basically alike. We want to identify that snake rationally and without delay. Once identified, we don’t want just any medicine off of the shelf. We want the right stuff!
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What you seem to miss, Joel Mark, is that people Bradley would deride as “Bitter” (an unfortunate and unfair term) could come up with their own list of “the sins of the Right (and the elder generation)” to parallel your “sins of the Left (and the younger generation)”:
Christ is not at the center if… (the “if” is big in all the points below):
* we disregard and even demean the poor, the alien, and the powerless.
* we show favoritism to the rich.
* we support wars of aggression as solutions to international problems. When Christ is the center, human life is SACRED!
* we endorse torture, which violates man’s special status as an image-bearer of God. When Christ is the center, human life is SACRED!
* we publicly lambaste others’ sexual sins while saying very little about the ones that plague our own communities.
* we make an idol of our nation-state.
* we allow our speech to be characterized by Pharisaical superiority rather than grace and love.
Unfortunately, Bradley’s post continues the misappropriation of Christianity as uniquely conservative and dismisses a justified “healthy critique” (which he sneers at) as just sour grapes by over-privileged brats.
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I know a number of very fine 20-somethings who don’t fit this generality.
History shows that numbers always fall away–that’s why the Scriptures refer to remnants of believers. It’s challenging to follow Jesus through thick and thin and all the above who mention the poor example set by us baby boomers, are correct.
I’m not a Blue Like Jazz fan either, but it’s important to understand what about Donald Miller’s book touched the hearts of so many.
It’s also important to remember that disenfranchisement and doing things differently that their parents, is a hallmark of young people throughout time.
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To the young, I would say, if the “bitter” shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. Discussions like this should be humbling for us all as we work to understand out flaws and our difficulties in getting along across generational lines.
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JM: The sermonette I had in mind was #23. But you outdid yourself with #58 where 6 of your 7 “ifs” are about…sex. To quote someone: “It’s really all about sex”.
Compare your points with JJF’s and it’s fairly easy to see the dividing line between those who think it’s all about Jesus and those who think it’s all about sex.
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JJF, no one I know or have read is denying that a list of sins can and does apply to all groups and generations. But we do agree on some of the points you listed:
* I fully agree with you, JJF, that Christ is not at the center if we disregard and even demean the poor, the alien, and the powerless. And I think the left does this more than the right in today’s world. That’s my observation. I don’t buy the stereotype otherwise. The right is more generous and charitable, by and large. So add that one to the general sins of the Left.
* I fully agree with you that Christ is not at the center if we show favoritism to the rich. As one on the right, I don’t do this and don’t get any encouragement from others to do this.
* Regarding supporting wars of of aggression, I agree again and THAT is exactly why I have such strong criticism of Islamic jihadists. But I do highly respect those who put their lives on the line unselfishly to STOP the agression of the jihadists. When Christ is the center, human life is SACRED, and that means we will act courageously to protect it!
* As for torture, we may disagree on what it is. In some cases, I support the use of enhanced interrogation measures to prevent further loss of innocent life. But the ethics of such decisions cannot be blanketed blindly over all circumstances. Our soldiers and law enforcement officers need accountability but they also need to have some flexibility in fighting sheer evil without having their hands unduly tied. But good people can quibble over the word “unduly.”
And I agree that we should not publicly lambaste others’ sexual sins while saying very little about the ones that plague our own communities. That’s why I mentioned various kinds of extra-marital sins in my previous comments. Did you miss that? What communities are you talking about?
* I fully agree with you, JJF, that Christ is not at the center if we make an idol of our nation-state. I am glad the reasonable Christian right does not support doing that by any means. And I I disagreed with Obama’s stated goal back in 2007 to use politics to create a kingdom of God on earth. I can get you the quote if you want it.
* I fully agree with you, JJF, that Christ is not at the center if we allow our speech to be characterized by Pharisaical superiority rather than grace and love. So truel Jesus’s speech was extremely harsh to the Pharisees and hypocrits who thought themselves to be superior.
We are agreeing a lot here, JJF.
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If you do not understand repentance and the need for it (for all of us), Arcadia, I cannot expect you to understand Jesus.
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I’m afraid that we Evangelicals got too caught up in “God is Love” over the last few decades – and we sure filled our kids full of it as sort of an Evangelical “self-esteem”. Thank God it is true! – but there are also at least 20 other attributes that describe God equally in Scripture.
If we come to believe that the only really “important” thing about God is his love, then we are (all of us) bound to become “spoiled brats” over time.
Ironically, this focus also leaves us quite helpless before the Aggressive Atheists who rightly point out that a simple “God of Love” would never allow human suffering, certainly not on the scale of natural disasters and school shootings.
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Every now and then you have a moment when you realize that you are getting old, for me it was hearing one of my high school friends say “what’s wrong with the kids today, no respect, when we were that age …” — he was not amused when I pointed out he would have been either stoned or drunk when he was that age, sneaking out late at night, “borrowing” his parents car, etc. The point is criticizing the generations that follow your is the favorite pastime of old people and its usually without justification. I teach a diverse group of 12 year olds of different religions,cultures, social-economic backgrounds etc., and rarely do I see a difference in the way they act and the way my friends and I acted when we were 12.
Reading the comments following the post the term “piling on” came to mind. In my honest opinion, the twenty somethings of today are far more focused, goal oriented, hard working than most people who finished school in the late 80s or early 90s. Now if you want to whine about a slacker generation, then you are 20 years too late. As a member of GenX — we made the rest of you look good.
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HRW, as another Gen-Xer, speak for yourself. (I never tasted alcohol till I was about 35, for example, and never snuck out at night or did anything illegal.) I’ve always disliked being “lumped” into a generation at all. When I was 15 my best friend was 30; I’ve simply never fit the stereotypes, and never wanted to.
But what I had to learn, in my twenties, was that my pride, including pride about not committing certain sins, was odious in God’s eyes, and that I needed Christ’s righteousness and not my own. It really isn’t the type of sin or the severity of sin that is the issue, but thinking we can live life without God. However we mess up with sin, we do mess up and fall short of God’s holiness.
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Joel Mark, is it at all possible to write a comment that relates to your inner faith without using the words left & right?
Put yourself into a different situation, where you do not live in a nation of left and right but in a place where you have no voice, where government does what it pleases and you have no vote, no say, and no knowledge of what is going on at all. No TV, no newspapers, no propaganda. NOW… talk about what is important without pointing fingers in either direction. Can any of you speak human being to human being, not political party to political party? No wonder there is a growing population of independent voters.
You speak of pharisees, yet you honestly sound like one. Get to the root of it, John Mark. Love, service, HUMILITY. Turning the other cheek. Forgiveness. Teaching, learning. If our nation was intently and universally committed to these principles, there would be no political bickering, would there? Think about it, without the politics. Without the policy talk, without the criticisms and finger pointing.
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Ha. I want everyone else to be humble too, but for some reason they’re just not listening to me.
This is a political blog as well as a Christian one. The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ are shorthand for political stances so that we all don’t have to begin the discussion by re-inventing the wheel at every post. They can be over-used, but people who object to them entirely are often just trying to manipulate the conversation.
When I first read this post, I thought it’s a little unfair to lump 20-somethings together as ‘bitters’. I wouldn’t appreciate the label either. But as Joel Mark said in #62, if the bitter shoe doesn’t fit, refuse to wear it!
For my part, I think #52 is one of the best comments on the thread. And it’s applicable to each of us regardless of age or political affiliation. Luke 7:36-50: Repentance and forgiveness. The secrets of Christian humility and gratitude do indeed lurk within.
Be well all.
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Thanks everyone–especially MAR, KBells, Mumsee and NW Julianna–for the teaching suggestions. Joel Mark, I have to admit my teaching will not be heavy on repentence, but only because our pastor has been doing a brilliant job on teaching what true repentence is.
For the record, this 20 something group is about 300 strong and with two other young adult groups from area churches, coupled with a few retired groups from the same churches and two Rotary Clubs are the crew who are responsible for clothing, feeding, housing and helping the homeless to find jobs in North San Diego County.
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The “bitter shoe” fits all of us at one time or another, unfortunately. It’s part of the “flesh”. But…even if a person is bitter at one point in life, that’s not who that person is in Christ. Why the need for labels?
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“we disregard and even demean the poor, the alien, and the powerless.”
True, but who does this? Left and right have different suggestions on how to tackle helping the poor, the alien, and the powerless.
It is always odd to me, that the left champions the burden upon the government to accomplish it, and then blames the individual right for their supposed lack of effort.
I prefer we continue to place the burden upon our individuals instead of government, and that we quit judgeing others demeanors in attempts to manipulate the conversation.
“we show favoritism to the rich.”
Aye, they should not be treated any differently than you or me or the poor. That means they should not be penalized or disfavored either simply for having money. To me it is unfair to disfavor as well.
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FORTHEYOUNGPPL asked, “Joel Mark, is it at all possible to write a comment that relates to your inner faith without using the words left & right?”
Of course. But your question is weird.
I have commented on this thread often, including comments regarding innner faith. Only one out of fourteen comments/posts even uses the words ‘right’ & ‘left’ in the sense you mean them. Only one, and THAT one was in specific response to JJF who brought that angle up–not me. Can I not respond, FORTHEYOUNPPL?? Many many others had commented before that with a view to ‘right’ & ‘left.’
Sheeeesh! You’re comments directed to me about my comments reveal you are not listineing well to me at all.
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I’m one of those young whippersnappers in my mid-20s that probably fits the mold of “The Bitters.” I’ll start by acknowledging that yes, we have the wrong attitude sometimes in our differences with our parents. But I humbly submit that we’re not defining ourselves by what we’re against only — with every “conservative conspiracy” we criticize, we’re trying to point out that our Gospel is too small. What I mean is, my peers are tired of evangelical Christianity that is practically the same thing as conservative politics.
A lot of us grew up in sheltered homes that didn’t “go to the widow and orphan” outside of the immediate church, and we don’t understand why. I don’t think we crave affirmation so much as we crave significant work. We crave work and mission that matters in the eternal scheme of things, and the limited conservatism we see in the church seems almost petty to us for that reason. We aren’t rebelling against the American dream because it’s our parents’ dream, but because it’s been found wanting. Again, I acknowledge that we don’t always go our separate ways in great harmony or with great attitude. But I do implore Mr. Bradley and others not to think us purpose-less just because our purpose is different than his.
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“Thorn, while your points on stereotyping are right, my argument has nothing to do with politics. I was trying to counter the comments who made it about politics, by pointing out that both ends of the political spectrum are compatible with Jesus Christ, and military strength or economic growth are utterly irrelevant to what is inside someone’s heart. You proved the point I am trying to counter. I would love to hear your thoughts without political commentary.”
Neither “end” of the political spectrum is compatible with Christ. Christ is not on the left or right scale. He is not on the good or bad scale.
And no I didnt prove your point, and you must have missed every othe rpost I made as well. The only time I brought up politics, was in reference to myself.
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FORTHEYOUNGPPL wrote; “Can any of you speak human being to human being, not political party to political party?”
Of course I can and I have — more than you know. Your presumption is in error factually and personally. Your questions are wierd, and very personally judgmental without basis.
If I sound like a Pharisee, please give an example and back up your asccusation. Regarding love, service, HUMILITY–may God inspire more in all of us. How have I contradicted these?
And I have spoken of forgiveness (see #52) on this thread and many others. Did you miss that in your haste to judge me, FORTHEYOUNGPPL?
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“I mean is, my peers are tired of evangelical Christianity that is practically the same thing as conservative politics.”
Katherine,
I think that is a two fold problem of stingy old white guys from the past, coupled with the extreme left’s painting of all conservatives.
It’s kinda like the car industry, where bad PR easily destroys your rep in a day, but it takes years of good cars to restore it.
Like what Solideo was saying, the reformed movement is practically dedicated to unity through diversity, to mercy ministries. It is pushing people not to just sit in the pew.
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By the way, nice to see there are alot of Gen Nintendo here
Didnt realize we had so many 20 somethings.
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#69 – “If our nation was intently and universally committed to these principles, there would be no political bickering, would there?”
The ONLY way to get rid of political bickering in this world is to establish an autocratic and tyrannical dictatorship. It’s been done before. But what I love about America is that we can have vigorous free discourse on political and other ideas.
When you imagine no politics, no policy talk, no criticisms and no finger pointing, you are imagining something horrible and oppressive in the extreme. No thanks. FORTHEYOUNGPPL, in America, we have a right to debate and even change policy rather than have it imposed on us without our participation or consent. I believe in the consent of the governed.
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Yeah its a noble idea, but sin is a reality. Even with all the love abounding, it’s a bit naive to think there would be no bickering.
The only perfect society is not of this world.
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Are these illustrations of the older believers teaching the younger believers how to effectively converse about the Christian life?
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Katherine, I very much appreciated your thoughts. I heard one time a few years ago something that has really stuck with me–one of the bigest problems today’s kids face is that they have everything they “want” materially, but their parents are often too busy, and they don’t have the one thing everyone really needs–the sense of being needed. In the old days, children helped on a farm or helped with younger children or other tasks. Now they do “chores” that feel meaningless, and they feel like they’re in everyone’s way but nobody needs them. Everyone, even children, needs a sense of purpose, not just being coddled when it’s convenient or being sent to day care when it’s not.
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JJF and company (including all other Leftists who call themselves ‘Christians’) so hilariously (in the darker sense of the word) and conveniently leave out the following:
By supporting and enabling and voting for the genocide known as abortion (which he and company gleefully and in full knowledge do), they put a blood-soaked Satan dead center on the throne of their lives.
There is no Jesus Christ there at all – only the mountain of dead children and the parts of dead children and the gore they have purposely facilitated – forty million children and counting – and, squatting at the peak, Old Scratch himself, leering and foul, with eyes like red windows looking into Hell.
These characters are as ‘Christian’ as the willing flunkies of the gross and worm-eaten King Herod two thousand years ago, who eagerly scuttled off to do their Lord and Master’s bidding regarding the ‘cleansing’ of the land of the unwanted.
Politically, that horror-show fact alone puts the lie on all the nauseating mealy-mouthed platitudes – which exactly (when reduced semantically) boil down to “I will work to enable the confiscation of others properties and livelihood and the abridgment of liberty, in order to create a secular anti-Christian all-powerful State, out of this Republic of free men and women”.
There is nothing Christian about Statism, nor is there anything Christian about attempting to use the State to coerce others, which is exactly what the Left is all about (if you know anything of history).
In the larger sense, what JJF and others support has nothing to do with charity and nothing to do with helping others and is antithetical to Christianity – the final goal is to create a Frankenstein society melded from the dual horrific visions of Orwell in 1984 (State – and Terror – as God) and Huxley in his Brave New World (Perversion – scientific, social, moral, and cultural – as God).
There is no idea more foul and more evil than the idea that we are to somehow separate our Christianity from our ‘politics’, or our views on perversion (any and all aspects of perversion), or our daily lives – or, in fact, from any area of our lives.
While the support and enabling of abortion (by someone who is apprised of what it is and understands what it is) is a clear and unambiguous sign of what actually motivates that person, it is almost equally hard for me to imagine a truly ‘pro-life’ Leftist.
Such a person would still intentionally support an abortion-enabling ideology that has, in addition to justifying the killing of children for convenience, butchered hundreds of millions of men, women and children in the past century or so, and continues to butcher today – and which persecutes and degrades.
If someone like that existed, they would be either very, very stupid, or insane.
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And as I will be shortly accused of being a one-trick pony by the Leftists (including JJF), I will forestall that by saying that I am glad to be a one-trick pony on an issue which will take the lives (in a particularly barbaric fashion) of around 3000 children today and in this country alone.
If whatever clinically accurate language I use to describe this bestiality (and which causes so much angst among the Leftists who like to style themselves as followers of Christ – and yet who vote for the horror, time and time and time again – and who wish and work for an enforced silence from those who dare to oppose it), causes only one person to hesitate before pulling the lever for a pro-abort politician, that would be a great thing, in my opinion.
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Katherine, Well said! And may we all be able to say, well lived.
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DRILL wrote; “There is no idea more foul and more evil than the idea that we are to somehow separate our Christianity from our ‘politics’, or our views on perversion (any and all aspects of perversion), or our daily lives – or, in fact, from any area of our lives.”
Good point. Thanks, Drill. Now the resident leftists and “softists” can shoot their arrows at you (smile).
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#82, Neil,
Yes, I think these are excellent examples of older more experienced Christians teaching the younger how to effectively communicate on politics and the Christian life. They’re ‘20-somethings’ not ‘2-somethings’. This is one of the few places they will find where their age doesn’t matter. They will not be dismissed because of it, nor will they be pandered to because of it. There is a great deal of Godly grace and variety in these comments. And you know we will never all agree this side of heaven, so why not teach how to disagree gracefully…if sometimes passionately. At the end of the day, it’s still about repentance and forgiveness. :–)
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Debra, #88, I generally agree with your comments. I do however think there is some ineffective adversarial terminology that is not gracious. And while I agree that repentance and forgiveness is fundamental, I don’t read much of it here.
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Drill: And how many “babies” will your god kill today through miscarriages? How many women’s lives saved and how many hideously deformed fetuses saved from lives of misery? (And how much of your precious conservatives’ taxpayers money saved).
JM: Here is a link to Times column today by Nick Kristoff. It involves the Catholic church and a hospital which performed an abortion to save a life. The language and the story are exactly what I was writing about above.
To me, this battle illuminates two rival religious approaches, within the Catholic church and any spiritual tradition. One approach focuses upon dogma, sanctity, rules and the punishment of sinners. The other exalts compassion for the needy and mercy for sinners — and, perhaps, above all, inclusiveness.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?hp
All of that being said I hate abortions. They are repugnant to me.
But I repect women and families more and I know that “big Government” should have nothing to say about these matters.
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Anthony, A child knows whether or not his or her parent(s) live what they preach. I have difficulty with those 2nd (and beyond) generation Christians who do not understand that noone can come to Jesus Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). As one who did not grow up in a Christian home, the drawing power of God is very clear and the change is obvious as darkness is to light. We have minefields because of those who think the prescription that the Great Physician ordered is of a little bit (to almost none) of truth mixed with a lot of “hype” to draw. And yes, we’ve learned the tragic error of confusing politics with faith (e.g. Glenn Beck).
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“And how many “babies” will your god kill today through miscarriages? How many women’s lives saved and how many hideously deformed fetuses saved from lives of misery? (And how much of your precious conservatives’ taxpayers money saved).”
So you’ll question the motives or why’s of God, but not a woman’s or family’s?
If his is so suspect..what on earth makes you think a woman has any better of a right to play god?
You question God’s right to be a God…and then you attempt to place women in his place instead…
You can not have both.
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All of that being said I hate slavery. Slavery is repugnant to me. But I repect states and families more and I know that “big Government” should have nothing to say about these matters.
ACTUALLY, my views on abortion and slavery rights are consistent: Neither are right nor do you have natural aright to either. I was just showing the bankruptsy of Arcadia’s rhetoric and logic.
“Choice” is violent and hateful enflaming rhetoric when applied to the abortion industry.
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In earnest, there is not much in the world that would make me happier than for 20-somethings to defy and contradict the general observations and trends that Anthony Bradley and others on this thread (myself included) have articulated.
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Interesting article, thank you for sharing, Arcadia.
I’m a little perplexed as I thought the Catholic teaching always has been whichever has the greater chance of surviving, the mother or child, that’s the one you save.
With the “ease” of abortion, I guess it’s just easier to save the mother. That’s not meant as an editorial comment, just an observation.
Sad all the way around.
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Arcadia wrote; “But you outdid yourself with #58 where 6 of your 7 “ifs” are about…sex.”
What you spin off a ’sex’, I intended as unadulterated love. It something worthy honoring and defending. I don’t apologize for caring about its appropriate honor in our culture or for taking issue with its perversion and being dishonored.
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I think we need to ask which came first–the principles that led Evangelicals to become active in the Republican Party or their involvement with the Republican Party. The truth is that many Evangelicals, especially in the South, were diehard Democrats. Why the shift? It wasn’t because they liked elephants more than donkeys.
As somebody who is old enough to remember, what led Evangelicals to become politically active was a desire to restore the nation to pro-life and pro-family values. The “politics” followed from that, not the other way around. The Republican Party seemed the right choice because that party was more conservative in more ways than one. It was the one with people who were most likely to sympathize with an agenda of restoring virtue to the country and to our laws.
In other words, Evangelicals have never confused the Republican Party or the Republican platform with their religious beliefs. They have worked long and hard to influence and shape the GOP to reflect their beliefs. They have, as people have repeated thousands of times, regarded it as the lesser of two evils. They have had minor success in their objectives.
The primary issue, as others have pointed out, has been the sanctity of life. If you get that right, most things will follow rightly from it. If you get it wrong, then you are likely to endorse and embrace other wrongs. The sanctity of human life is the basis for so many other ethical principles.
If young Evangelicals are not committed to the sanctity of life, then I respectfully submit that they are not really evangelical at all. Which is fine, when it comes down to the political arena and their right to express their views. I just wish that they would have enough respect for themselves and for those who came before them not to call themselves Evangelicals.
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Anthony Bradley: Thank you for writing this article. Its thought-provoking and I’ve been mulling it over the past couple days. Thanks. Here is a response I wrote: Bitters, Hipsters, Swingers and Normal People Like Me. http://jeffwrightjr.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/bitters-hipsters/
Jeff Wright
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Jeff, THANK YOU!!!!!!!
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Good post at #97, KYLE A. Here’s how I see it (much like you):
I am old enough to know that both parties were quite comfortable with perceived ties with Christians and Christianity before the 60s and 70s. What changed was NOT that Republicans made some new outreach to create a connection, but that the Democrat Party deserted such ties as it became more and more aggressively secularist and self-absorbed with special interest identity politics (like feminism, for instance, which demanded abortion on demand).
So, the notion of one party being more connected to Christian themes and resources than the other is indeed relatively new in America. Evangelicals before the 60s and 70s were active in both parties, but the Democrat Party did the leaving as they built constituencies that were more and more self-serving (focused on special interest concerns related to a particular race, ethnicity, gender, class and unique lifestyle preference).
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Jeff Wright,
The Bible is full of pro-life affirmations for a death penalty and the following is just one example:
“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.” (Genesis 9:6)
The biblical fact that we are made in the image of God is the basis for administering just and equal capital punishment to those duly convicted of shedding innocent blood. Jeff, are you aware of what the families of the victims go through for life when they are denied justice and closure? It is inhumanly cruel and unjust, in my view. Authentic “social justice” does not ban all options for a death penalty in all cases.
It is consistently pro-life to allow for capital punishment and preemptive just war (if it is truly just—which an ethical pro-life person can legitimately assess). It is consistently pro-life to protect and honor innocent life and to refuse to give a moral or legal pass to convicted murderers who take innocent life with presumed impunity. God does not do that and many times in His Word, He instructed us not to either.
To over-simplify, pro-life people can legitimately oppose proven pro-death forces. But specific positions must be rooted on the merits of particular cases. In any case, there is nothing “pro-life” about putting some absolutist blanket that would prevent the just capital punishment of those proven guilty of pre-meditated murder or mass murder. Also, there is nothing “pro-life” about knowingly being passive while evil is moving forward. Conservative Evangelicals are quite conscientious in handling independent cases justly, but they are morally justified to refrain from applying some ideological absolute ban that would prevent the state from legitimately “wielding the sword” (as the NT sanctions the state to do in Romans 13) against proven evil-doers.
What younger evangelicals seem to often miss, in my view, is a realistic understanding of the serious reality of evil in the world. It takes some experience under one’s belt to grasp this aspect fully enough to stop living too exclusively on ideals that make us feel nice and kind but fail to stand up to real evil in effective ways.
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Jeff Wright,
By the way, thank you for sharing a link to your thoughts. Hope you don’t mind me sharing mine.
The notion that evangelicals have neglected a healthy stewardship of creation is an easy but too often inaccurate accusation based on stereotypes repeated by leftist environmentalists with lifestyles that blatantly neglect any notion of stewardship of creation altogether. They don’t even believe in “creation.” It is too much of a money ploy (to keep grant money coming in from the gov’t) and political strategy. For instance, the official numbers that elite academics used (and gave to the United Nations) to substantiate global warming were proven to be cynically doctored. And there is no accountability for these leftists–ZIP. Why don’t the younger ones among us hold them accountable? If they do, I don’t see it. Instead, they seem to me to follow (all too uncritically) those who make them feel more righteous than those “rascally conservatives.”
In fact, too many of the yong bought inot feel-good Obama-worship incredulously.
Jeff, I do not see either the left nor the young actually rejecting the “bourgeois consumerism of mass, commercialized culture.” I only see them using rhetoric against it while wallowing in it themselves and bitterly criticizing “conservatives” for stereotypes that are largely distorted.
I reject your claim, Jeff, that young people who have actually tried the various political, theological and social/cultural elements of evangelicalism have found them to be wanting. For one, they have not had time. I think they are running on stereotypes of conservatives without legitimately understanding them or trying them sincerely. That’s my own observation.
Jeff, I think human decency is losing and I blame both (or all) current generations. But I think the right is addressing that reality more earnestly and sincerely.
Are you concerned that out-of-wedlock births in America have gone from 5.8% of all births in 1960 to OVER 41% today? That’s just one problem, but I think it is a near litmus test question for Christian conviction regarding our culture and politics today.
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I am a non-bitter 20 something, but my main thought on criticizing them is to encourage our parents’ generation to do exactly what Jesus always said – look at your own hearts.
Is it any wonder that my generation is bitter when half of marriages ended in divorce, within the church and without? When families didn’t live much, if any differently than their counterparts in the world? When our parents wanted financial success more than having more kids or staying home with them? I think children are merely following the pattern their parents set for them, without the seeming hypocrisy of a church service and bible studies, and even marriage.
I come from divorce and turned to God to cope with my pain rather than blaming him. But if Christians truly lived differently from the world, I doubt that nearly as many of their children would be walking away from the faith.
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SeekingTheTruth, You say you turned to God to cope with your pain rather than blaming Him. I am curious about how the Christians around you were helpful or not helpful. My assumption is that those who preached down to you were not helpful, while those who shared their growing with you were helpful.
I assume this partly because of your challenge to “look at your own hearts.” I don’t know if it is an age thing but I do sense that many Christians are more concerned about their head than their heart. (Like the Pharisees)
Knowing Biblical Truth accurately is essential. But the real accuracy of our knowledge is revealed not by right words but by our heart-revealing behaviors.
Thank you for sharing. And praise God He has helped you not be bitter.
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SEEKING THE TRUTH, I agree with your call to “look at your own hearts” first. And I honor your observations of the church. However, my experiences and observations of her are different.
I see far fewer marriages end in divorce among church-belonging Christians. Surveys that treat Christianity as a mere label people wear found no difference in divorce rates. But sruveys that distinguished Christians who attend church regularly found that this set of believers did have fewer divorces.
Those families that are devoted to church life do live differently than from the world, in my experience and observation.
If there are fewer hypocrites in the world than in the churches, maybe its because the world does not hold itself to high moral standards in the first place.
I do see Christians truly living differently from the world, but I am with you if you think too many still do (sadly) live too much like the world.
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Stop attributing unbecoming emotions to 20-year-olds and tell Congress to stimulate demand for their labor, as they have the most dismal career outlooks of any 20-year-olds in 70 years.
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Seeking the Truth, I also suffered the pain of divorce when I was young, although my parents were not Christians.
In my church, which is a Bible-believing church and one committed to holiness and to church discipline, there has not been a divorce for over twenty years. In that case, the husband left his wife and divorced her against her will. Among the couples in our church are those who have been married for 50, 40, 30, 20 years–and all the way down.
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“bitter”?
——-
Was the apostle Paul “bitter”?
Does any of the so-called “bitter” read their New Testaments?
Learn what Paul learned.
Something like, “Gee, if Paul knew the precious secrets of being ‘in Christ’, why can’t I”?
It’s all in there, dear believer.
“Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Ro 15:13)
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What will help, is dumping all the nonsense about “right”, “left”, “conservative”, “liberal”, etc.
Unlearn some stuff.
Read your Bibles.
Let IT provide you with sound words.
“Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.” (2Ti 1:13)
Later, discernment with contemporary word usage, will be established much more clearly.
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Jeffery –
I don’t know enough about your critique of Evangelical conservatives .
But I know enough about American social history to advise you not to worry about Anthony Bradley and to watch your back.
The real contentions of your life will be against your peers. If you make a noisy political critique of America, trust me, a majority of your generation will spend the rest of their lives punishing you. Thirty years from now, members of your generation will make huge political careers out of gratuitously punching “bitters” in the face.
How do I know this? Dissenters are never the rebels or the movers and doers. The true spirit of rebellion resides with the eternal reactionaries who defend the social order, to the detriment of the common good.
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This op-ed is extremely cynical. No wonder they are bitter…you get that way when people don’t take the time to take your concerns seriously and label you a brat.
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I appreciate the conversation that’s been happening here — as a 20-something myself, I am keenly aware of the tension between the dogmas of left vs. right.
One of the issues I have, and perhaps what a lot of 20-somethings have as well, is exactly what was #101 JOEL MARK addresses. If, as Christians, we can agree that there is an inherent value in every human being on this earth (God made us in His image), then how does the ideology of either political party fit perfectly within that premise? For example, if all humans have inherent value, then abortion is morally wrong — that’s not hard to understand.
But what about capital punishment? JOEL MARK makes the argument that it’s theologically sound, because the assumption is that it punishes those who infringe on human rights in horrid, terrible ways. What confuses me is how suddenly humans DO have a right to judge who lives and who dies, on the basis of their sin.
I am a sinner in desperate need of God’s grace every single moment of every day. I know I deserve death; I don’t deserve what God has blessed me with. How can I choose who lives and who dies when I myself deserve to die?
I realize there is a part of me that is speaking from naivety. I’ve never been in a situation in which I wished capital punishment on anyone, so I cannot speak to the degree of pain and anguish that those in those shoes would feel. Nonetheless, in a theological sense, I know that I deserve the same fate as any of the most evil people in this world. Yet because of Christ — because of Christ — I am redeemed and can live in fellowship with the Father. Nobody wants to put me on the chair for my sins. What gives us the right to do that for even the worst of us? How can we pick and should whose lives to protect (fetuses vs. convicts)?
As a medical student, the issue of healthcare is another hot topic, and to be candid, it’s difficult to know where to stand. My gut reaction is to push for a universal healthcare — this stems from the idea stated earlier that every human being has inherent value, regardless of what they have done. But my Christian colleagues who critique the idea of universal healthcare state that the government should not overstep it’s role — yes, everyone should receive the care they need, but not at the hands of a corrupt government.
So here’s what I’m left with: when it comes to abortion and genocide, Republicans says the government should intervene. But as for universal healthcare, they should stay out. When it comes to the sanctity of life, Christian Republicans are okay with making exceptions with capital punishment, and Christian Democrats make exceptions with their pro-choice dogma. It seems that the sanctity of life is conditional within each party.
Ultimately, I think it’s impossible for a Christian to align completely with either Democratic OR Republican ideals. I’m sorry JOEL MARK, but your argument in #101 was a bit weak for me to jump on the capital punishment bandwagon. I know you weren’t giving a full defense of it, so maybe you can elaborate on how exactly it fits within the whole context of the Bible.
As a 20-something, I know many here have a greater understanding of Christian living than I do. Your insight and perspective — in a constructive manner — would be greatly appreciated.
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When I read post 112, But what about capital punishment? JOEL MARK makes the argument that it’s theologically sound, because the assumption is that it punishes those who infringe on human rights in horrid, terrible ways. What confuses me is how suddenly humans DO have a right to judge who lives and who dies, on the basis of their sin.
I am a sinner in desperate need of God’s grace every single moment of every day. I know I deserve death; I don’t deserve what God has blessed me with. How can I choose who lives and who dies when I myself deserve to die?
I was going to respond with Genesis 9:6, but I read further and saw references to post 101, and I scrolled back and saw that the verse is quoted there. So whether or not you’ve ever read the Bible for yourself, you should understand that this is a biblical principle, God Himself (and not humans) judging who lives and who dies.
Surely you would agree that God has the right to do that, right? All death is God’s decision, when it comes right down to it; in this case, He has delegated to human beings not just the right, but actually the responsibility to put the murderer to death. Thus, saying, “Oh, I’m sinful, and little old me can’t decide that” is false humility. When God says that a task is mankind’s responsibility, then it is mankind’s responsibility, whether he has “earned” the right or not. This isn’t about man’s holiness to execute judgment; it’s about God’s righteous judgment and command.
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SSON asked, “How can I choose who lives and who dies when I myself deserve to die?”
You can’t and you shouldn’t, SSON–not on your own. Please consider that I am not saying that capital punishment is something that individuals or the church should undertake. In addition to the sanction in the Old Testament for men to not rule out the death penalty in some cases, the New Testament also sanctions it for the state (see Romans 13, where we read that God ordains the state to wield the sword against evildoers). God may indeed call his church to a non-violent ethic, but in His wisdom has still provided a sphere for evildoers to be dealt with–the state.
SSON, it’s not that humans in general suddenly have the right to judge who lives and who dies, but that the appropriate ordained authorities do and under a legal process that may bring you in as a jury person who is acting responsibly on behalf of the ordained legal authorities.
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SSON,
It is easy to theoretically say that the inherent value of all human beings means they are entitled to health care. But why is that same reason not good enough to argue that every human being deserves food to be delivered to their home, or made available to them in some way? Why isn’t the value of all humans reason enough to entitle every one with a home of equal quality as that of all others? If they have a right to health care, then do they have a responsibility to in some way reimburse those who labor to provide that care? Can the state demand health care workers to provide care to all even without fair compensation on the pretext that all human beings are valuable and deserve it?
If you say that the worker deserves her wages, then you must include in the discussion the means by which they get those wages and from whom it must come and how. Those are social justice questions too. Obama’s plan allegedly provides 30 million more people with health care but it does NOTHING to add to the work force of health care providers. IN FACT, his plan is more likely to drive more away from that field and career because the state will govern their reimbursement.
When it comes to abortion and genocide, Republicans are correct to say that human life should be protected. And as for universal healthcare, Republicans are right to point out that the costs involved are unsustainable, especially when those receiving the health care are not required to do their fair part in the process. The Republicans presented a more responsible plan for healthcare reform, but the Democrats completely ignored it and rammed through their bill without one Republican in support and with corrupt backroom deals. Now huge groups are getting waivers from this plan. This is crony socialism at its worst.
SSON, the sanctity of life is not “conditional” for most secularists. The whole concept of “sacred” is largely denied in that camp, by definition.
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SSON,
I think most christians would trade life over death any day. In other words, say you are right and we shouldnt offer the death penalty. Well I’d easily agree to trade that for the lives of 50 million babies in a heart beat.
Can’t find too many liberals willing to do it though…
BTW, why does anyone need universal health care, when you can have God care. The same God, that doesnt let a sparrow fall without him. If he knows the number of hairs on our head, I think its pretty much in his hands.
Health insurance is a back end help at covering costs. It does not treat you, it does not make you healthier. To mandate it federally has nothing to do with actually helping those who need treatment. It’s a money grab.
If they were serious about making things affordable they would be addressing admin and overtesting costs.
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I appreciate the responses, both from Cheryl D and JOEL MARK.
However, Cheryl, I’m inclined to say you’re oversimplifying the issue of capital punishment by relegating it to a single verse in Genesis. I can see where you got the context, but the adjacent verses make your example problematic. I could quote Genesis 9:5 to you and say ‘you better not sin anymore because you’re going to have to account for them one day’ and be done with it. But we both know that isn’t the whole story.
Your statement of “Oh, I’m sinful, and little old me can’t decide that, is false humility (#113),” somehow implying that my questions over capital punishment are stemmed from weakness and pride is also strongly unfounded, if not ignorant. It’s so much easier and gratifying to the sinful nature to get revenge than to forgive, to get retribution than to turn the other cheek. You know that, and you’re probably years ahead of me. So please explain why being hesitant to be a proponent for capital punishment in light of Jesus’ words is ‘false humility.’
My question, and I promise it’s an honest question, was how, in the context of the WHOLE Bible, can we as Christians justify capital punishment? I think JOEL MARK was trying to answer to that question, and yes, I see where you mentioned in Romans 13 where God ordains the state to wield the sword against evildoers. But it doesn’t say capital punishment. How do you reason through Luke 6:27-38 and justify capital punishment at the same time?
Of course, God is the ultimate judge. And yes, he gives us responsibilities to carry out. But I’m not so sure if Cheryl D said, “This man deserves to be put to death,” I would believe it as God’s will. Cheryl D’s will, sure. God’s will? Ehhh…that’s another conversation.
As for #115, JOEL MARK, I think your language became greatly politicized. I never said anybody was “entitled” to anything; in fact, I think I said the opposite (#112). The inherent value of all people is not “theoretical” — it’s Biblical. It’s why you are adamantly against abortion, right? What happens to your logic when that baby grows up? Suddenly their value as a human being is lost? And if they are poor, sick, or marginalized, that’s too bad? To compare healthcare to hand-me-outs as you did is poor rhetoric and tired politics. Let’s not go there.
I agree with your point that the worker should “get her wages.” Yes, it IS a social justice issue. But to use that as an example against universal healthcare again is politics. Maybe that’s where you thought the conversation was going, but I never said I was sympathetic to Obama’s healthcare plan. I only said I was in favor of a universal healthcare system. Perhaps, for you, that’s the same thing.
My hope in these posts is to convey to older folks out there why it’s difficult for many 20-something Christians to be staunch Republicans. When we study Scripture and examine the life and teachings of Jesus, we don’t see a Republican OR Democrat.
It’s articles like this one that help us to realize that there’s miscommunication occurring between the generations. Just because we’re not staunch Republicans does not mean that 1) we’re raging liberals, and 2) we’re a Scripture-illiterate generation, or 3) that we’re expressed repressed feelings of rebellion.
We ask questions and we want to know why you believe what you believe, in a Biblical context. Jesus was neither a Republican or Democrat, so why are you so partial to either side?
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SSON, several quick things and then I need to get to work:
I didn’t specifically point out as Joel Mark did that capital punishment isn’t an individual decision, but a government one. In other words, I cannot say “This person should be put to death” and have him killed (a trial is necessary), but if enough citizens say “No one should ever be put to death,” it can sway government decisions.
It is true that we should look at doctrine in the whole of Scripture, not just one verse. (Nowhere is the death penalty rescinded, BTW, and like marriage it predates the Mosaic law and thus cannot be considered overturned unless it is done deliberately, like the day change for the Lord’s day.) It is also true that sometimes one verse is clear and is the basis for the doctrine, however it is or isn’t backed up by the rest of Scripture, especially when God is instituting something. For instance, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh” defines marriage explicitly enough that it really wouldn’t matter whether or not “one flesh” is ever again used in Scripture. God repeats Himself because we listen poorly, not because He has to for it to “count.” In the case of the death penalty, it was given for murder before the Mosaic law, and thus whatever one feels about whether or not the Mosaic law is valid today, the death penalty for murder still is.
You’ve gone back to “well, my point is that this is how twenty-somethings see things . . .” and my point is that you have accused those who favor the death penalty of being inconsistently pro-life. Standing with God on this issue is not being inconsistent. It is very inconsistently pro-life to treat murderers well; it is pro-life to say that they deserve the harshest of penalties because they have committed the worst of crimes, and God said that deserves death.
You may not be in favor of the death penalty, but do not say that those who are show themselves to be “inconsistently pro-life.” That simply is not the truth, and I wanted to be sure you knew that.
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SSON,
You and I agree that humans are inherently valuable but I am honest enough to understand that this is indeed a theoretical and theological conviction on my part, which I believe because I think it is BIBLICAL. A secularist Darwinist may not share this conviction about human value because they operate under different theories. So let’s not mince words. The fact that something is theoretical does not make it any less true or less biblical.
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SSON neither Cheryl nor I are relegating the biblical case for capital punishment (under all the right and just terms) to a single verse in Genesis. To cite a verse is certainly NOT to thus contend it is the only verse we have. The biblical case for not ruling out the death penalty in a just justice system goes much farther than just one verse. Genesis 9:6 is just one of the more clear and powerful passages that make the point. And Genesis 9:5 only adds to the force of that case with it’s strong affirmation of the principle of accountability.
SSON, Luke 6:27-38 is not talking about the role of the state at all, but about the role of the individual Christian and the church. I do not believe in capital punishment being employed by individuals or by the church (apart from legitimate self-defense perhaps which is a different matter). The capital punishment debate is about the biblically ordained role of the governing authorities to include a death penalty in a just justice system as the most extreme measure for justice in certain cases.
The death penality is either upheld, advocated or presumed in fact or in principle the following (some of the terms for it set forth in some passages below are theologically and politically obsolete today in my view, but the sanction for the use of that penalty does often come from God and was inteneded for application on earth):
Genesis 9:6
Exodus 21: 21, 15 & 29.
Exodus 22:19
Exodus 28:43
Exodus 30:20
Exodus 35:2
Leviticus 10:1-7
Leviticus 16:1
Leviticus 20:2, 9-16
Leviticus 20:27
Leviticus 21:10
Leviticus 24:14ff
Numbers 3:10
Numbers 4:15
Numbers 15:35
Numbers 19:7
Numbers 25:2
Numbers 35:16ff
Deuteronomy 13:5 & 10ff
Deuteronomy 17:5
Deuteronomy 18:20
Deuteronomy 19:20
Deuteronomy 21:21
Deuteronomy 22:21
Deuteronomy 24:7 & 16
Joshua 1:18
2 Chronicles 15:13
Proverbs 22:23
I hope I copied them correctly. I’ll stop there, but the whole Bible sees no conflict between a life-affirming God calling for a just death penalty.
I only support it under extreme circumstances, but I do not think it should be banned as a legitimate option in a just legal system nor do I think anyone can argue from scripture that it defies the sanctity of life principle also set forth in Scripture. Affirming innocent life does sometimes mean meeting murder with a fully just and equal consequence. That honors the value of the innocent life that was snuffed out.
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SSON, of course my language became politicized. So what? Both the capital punishment and government helath control laws are political issues and questions.
SSON, to be honest means to admit that universal health care calls for massive “entitlements” to the labor, oversight, medicines and expertise of health care workers funded by the government. I am making the case for a more responsible approach to health care reform that does not over-play the “entitlement” cards (which the left does) in the hopes that you will listen objectively.
I affirm the value of human beings but that does not call for turning basic human responsibilities over to the government. What the left often calls a human right, I often call a human responsibility. That does not mean I value humans less. It means that using “rights” rhetoric (used by the left) can become opprosive and high-handed when applied excessively to all areas of human obligation and repsonisbility. It also calls me and my fellow Christians to step up and give more and work harder on their behalf with our own means.
SSON, I don’t think you really do agree with my point about the worker getting her wages, at least not in the realistic way I mean it. You think all people should get universal health care and you don’t seem to want to even discuss the very political matters of how much work it takes, how many workers it calls for, how to get this care to them, or how much it costs, or who will do it and for what sort of salary and from what source of funding? That’s politics my friend. You cannot pretend it isn’t.
When we older folk study Scripture and examine the life and teachings of Jesus, we don’t see a wimp or a moral coward or a man void of love or of tough convictions. We see a Son of God who fell under God’s own death penalty, for our sake.
I do not think that many 20-somethings think that they are raging liberals at all. But I do think too many of them are profoundly deceived and manipulated by raging leftists and liberals who know how to press their idealistic feeling-focused buttons.
Sorry, but that’s my general observation.
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You really call them “bitters”, or is this some kind of joke? Either way it’s really insensitive, as they prefer to be called Begroes.
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Joel Mark – You wrote, I do not see either the left nor the young actually rejecting the “bourgeois consumerism of mass, commercialized culture.” I only see them using rhetoric against it while wallowing in it themselves and bitterly criticizing “conservatives” for stereotypes that are largely distorted.
I’m not arguing with this, & my comment isn’t really germane to the rest of this conversation, but I thought you might like to know that my 21-year old daughter Emily is anti-materialism & anti-commercialization (without the bitterness & such) & she really tries her best to live according to her principles.
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Thanks Karen O. My comment was a gross gneralization, and intended more as a cutlural observation than a personal one. I should moderate it. Of course I know there are many exceptions. Let me just say that the materialism of the young takes different forms from that my my generation (and we have it too). Young people have lots of leisure time, and much stuff to hear, see, taste, feel and smell–gadgets, cars, clothes, food, etc. I see young people as subject to a lot of commercialism than oldsters. Most marketing approaches aim at the young and they usually find their mark.
But I want young people to have all they need in life, and with some wisdom to boot. I could use some widom myself and your posts help on that.
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That’s nice of you to say. Thank you.
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SSON,
I do very much appreciate your questions and I take your word that they are sincere. Whatever generalizations I make, none are by any means personal, but only for the sake of discussion and to give open air to ideas and treands–hopefully in a contractive way. In the realm of one generation generalizing about another, it is more like the pot calling the kettle black. We are all sinners and may God have mercy on us all and our nation.
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“I appreciate the responses, both from Cheryl D and JOEL MARK.”
“My question, and I promise it’s an honest question, was how, in the context of the WHOLE Bible, can we as Christians justify capital punishment?”
I believe JM did a good job of citing bible verses. I will just add that in those cases, at least two witnesses had to be present to confirm atrocities like murder. If there was any doubt or lack of evidence, capital punishment via death penalty could not be issued by the ruling judge.
When Christ is talking about turing the other cheek, it’s at an extreme example of say “A Time to Kill” where Samuel L. Jackson seeks revenge and vengeance himself would be wrong. But it is the law’s place to seek justice, and not ours to seek vengeance.
Do not confuse our desire for vengeance with due justice administered by a ruling judge.
But I have a question for you now.
Why do you think the feds/judges should stay out of capital punishment, while implying that they should be responsible for everyone’s health?
If you trust God for justice of murderers, why do you place him under the authority of the government when it comes to everyone’s health? If they are not honorable and wise enough to handle criminal justice, why would they ever be able to handle something greater?
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Thanks for your responses. Regarding our conversation on capital punishment, you’ve given me stuff to chew on, so I appreciate that. Joel, thank you for clarifying your intentions — I don’t think you were ever intending to offend me or anybody personally, but I do realize this is a passionate matter to you. I respect that.
It seems like with each post, there’s more and more to discuss, and it becomes extremely difficult (and time consuming) to keep up. So for me, I’m going to bow out now — there are still some things I have questions about, but I think I understand (and appreciate) in a larger sense your perspective on the issues we’ve discussed. At any rate, I should probably spend less time typing, more time thinking, learning.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Thorn,
I’m sorry I didn’t see your post (#127) until just after I posted my last comment. To clarify, one of the questions I had was regarding consistency in government involvement/uninvolvement. For example, if we wanted the government to intervene in stopping abortions, that is, promoting life and health of fetuses, why shouldn’t they get involved with promoting life and health of children and adults?
And regarding your question to me on capital punishment, please keep in mind that I was asking what Scripture (as a whole) said on the issue, not what I myself thought what judges should or shouldn’t do.
Sorry I don’t have time to answer more in depth, thanks for the thoughts.
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These so-called “bitters” are just living out the environment they were raised in, an environment of materialism, uninvolved parents, and loose morality that was created by the generations before them. Instead of decrying their bitterness, perhaps it would be wise to dialogue with those of this generation and really (really!) listen to them. Being a part of organized religion, even organized Christianity, is so unappealing because it is a yuppy club of SUV driving middle upper class dress right say the right things on Sundays listen to Christian music people who do not get involved with the poor, who are not there for the sick (I’m in my mid-thirties, have had cancer for over ten years, and have received little help through the church), who tell gays and couples living together unmarried that they need to fix themselves before they are welcome…we’re not bitter, we just want to live genuine lives with genuine people while loving the genuine God.
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Thinking about what someone earlier said about both political parties being wrong . .
I am a conservative fiscally and socially, although I definitely recognize the Republican party does very little differently from the Democrats.
The issue which has become increasingly of interest to me that Christians seem to speak little about is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. I side with the Democrats on that – God has always been about defending the alien, the widow, and the orphan. The Israelites were instructed to let the strangers in so long as they practiced the way of life with the Israelites.
I haven’t read much Christian opinion on the issue, but Republicans are very harsh in their opinions. My husband and I have been far more impressed with the illegal “aliens” we have known who worked hard and behaved respectably than the stereotypical welfare recipient.
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“why shouldn’t they get involved with promoting life and health of children and adults?”
WHy should they provide it, instead of promote it? Does promoting entail manipulation of THEIR ideals?
Or is it perhaps better to ensure simply the general welfare and the freedom for us to pursue our welfare. That’s the job of the feds ultimately. To being to decide individual welfare is not their place (US law wise).
Issuing sanitary laws for hospitals is a general welfare move. It’s very applicable. Fining a hospital for failure to abide, is also within reason.
Fining the 4 star hospital down the street for the above hospitals failures, or taxing its people to pay that fine…I think you could agree goes way to far?
From an economic standpoint, the more your money changes hands, the less there will be when it needs to ge to the person who needs it. The feds would do far better to enable its people to give…than by forcing participation and taxes.
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“please keep in mind that I was asking what Scripture (as a whole) said on the issue, not what I myself thought what judges should or shouldn’t do.”
My point is that you seem to think they should be in charge of dictating how to live our lives, and yet when it comes to an actual convicted criminal they should have no say.
I do not see how you can seperate it that way.
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“an environment of materialism, uninvolved parents, and loose morality that was created by the generations before them.”
Actually, Gen Y has parents that because of their parent’s generation and before, are highly involved and honestly, over protective.
(Please note, generations are in general, there are always exceptions).
Gen Y kids were taken every where to every event by at least a parent. Before you could go out and play with Johnny downw the street. Now mom takes you to multiple after school programs, calls you on the cell phone, wants to know how ever day was at college, etc etc.
“Being a part of organized religion, even organized Christianity, is so unappealing because it is a yuppy club of SUV driving middle upper class dress right say the right things on Sundays listen to Christian music people who do not get involved with the poor, who are not there for the sick (I’m in my mid-thirties, have had cancer for over ten years, and have received little help through the church)”
Well mid-30s is Gen X. But what help do you need?
Do you fear that which can kill the body, or that which can kill the soul?
Where as, I’ve been to a couple churches like you describe. The vast majority I have attended, including my current church, are a far cry from what you describe. You seem to attest those faults to an organized church, but organization is not hte problem.
Further, be careful to judge simply because they may not be heavily involved in a specific area. Churches are like people, they each have gifts and callings to whom they minister. In essence where as one church may be heavily involved with sick at the local hospital, another church may be heavily involved with hospitals and people in africa. One may provide a free school, while another has a large disaster response team.
Paul wrote multiple letters, and each church he wrote to is challenged differently. They each excelled in specific areas, and each had faults in specific areas.
“we’re not bitter, we just want to live genuine lives with genuine people while loving the genuine God.”
Who geninuely calls you to give up yourself. Why should any church allow a person to be a member if said person refuses repentance of any sin?
Wouldn’t that like be like letting a republican join the democratic party without the republican giving up his former policy?
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Thorn, you are the case in point. You take a post, phrase by phrase, and critique it and point out where I am, in your perception, wrong.
You said: “Further, be careful to judge simply because they may not be heavily involved in a specific area.” Um, I was not judging anyone, didn’t have any particular church in mind when I made my post, and in my experience, people take on pet projects and invest a little time or money here and there, but they neglect “the least of these” whom they encounter on a daily basis.
You quoted my quote: “I’m in my mid-thirties, have had cancer for over
ten years, and have received little help through the church”
and then responded: “Well mid-30s is Gen X. But what help do you need? Do you fear that which can kill the body, or that which can kill the soul?” If you have to ask what sort of help a young mom with cancer needs, then you are incredibly dense. I have no further comment on this that doesn’t involve expletives, so I will stop. Yes, I do fear that which kills the body–I have been through intense pain. You telling me I should not fear really isn’t helpful. I know what the Bible says. But suffering tends to override all the “shoulds” and “should nots” of perfect Christian thinking and behavior. Here is where people often insert the whole “God must think you’re really strong to handle that” or “God must be trying to teach you something” or other such nonsense. Do you think that a person who is suffering is disqualified from receiving help from others because he or she does not have the right attitude, i.e. has fear of pain and death? Really.
And your last comment regarding giving up the self and repentance of any sin–it is ridiculous to expect a person to have all their sh!t together before they are allowed to be “one of us”. But, I am a psychotherapist so I care about the person in process; the end product is just an illusion. You are just another example of someone wanting to argue his/her point, be right, prove the other person wrong on technicalities. And people wonder why younger generations seek another type of community….
It’s time to do something a little different, folks. Today’s young people are not responding to the traditions prior generations thrived on.
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“If you have to ask what sort of help a young mom with cancer needs, then you are incredibly dense.”
Am I dense? You may have insurance that covers cancer bills, you may have someone cooking for you, you may have someone helping with your kids, and you may none of that.
I DONT KNOW. It’s why I asked. I meant it as a real question, not a slight.
“Do you think that a person who is suffering is disqualified from receiving help from others because he or she does not have the right attitude, i.e. has fear of pain and death?”
Nope. Is joy independent of suffering and/or happiness?
“it is ridiculous to expect a person to have all their sh!t together before they are allowed to be “one of us”.”
I dont have my stuff together either, so why would I expect that?
I dont expect a homosexual to never struggle again with his sin.
That’s not what’s being rejected for membership. It is the failure to acknowledge sin, and repent in the first place.
I’m not saying there arent churches that reject people out right from coming. Certainly it happens. But any church should never open its membership to someone who does not confess their sin and profess repentance regardless of what that sin is.
“But, I am a psychotherapist so I care about the person in process; the end product is just an illusion. You are just another example of someone wanting to argue his/her point, be right, prove the other person wrong on technicalities.”
If it is about the person in the process, then why are you becoming bitter? Why have you given up on the end product? What is the point of a process but an end product?
Our process was already taken care of by Christ. There frankly is NO process from yourself. We sin because we either reject God’s promises or we take those promises for granted.
None of what I have said, is out of a desire to be technically better than you. Or to be right.
I’m of the younger generation. I desire to see you hold onto the end product again, to hold onto God’s promises. Dont let suffering descend into bitterness.
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Thorn, I think perhaps your intentions are good, and you have all the right platitudes and all the right answers; however you come across as superior and condescending. A quick glance through your posts reveal much–there is a pattern. I offer you a challenge: quit picking out phrases and sentences and forming a rebuttal or counterpoint. Take in the whole of what a person is saying, seek out their overall intent, try to see the heart behind the words. See the hurting hearts behind the defenses, offer words of comfort and love, provide unconditional support and walk with people as they discover for themselves the path God has for them instead of trying to tell them what to think, utilize the quality of humility, instead of assuming a person is bitter give them the benefit of the doubt and always assume the best before you assume the worst, and allow for the option that other people may actually have valid perspectives, even if you do not agree with or embrace their ideation. My guess would be that regardless of what a person says you will see what you have already decided written between the lines. Those of us accused of all this bitterness are not really bitter; we just believe there is a better way.
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in re: 137
I believe I asked what help you needed. You then called me dense. You even stated so far that you wouldnt comment further for fear of explatives.
In other words, in 137 you just chastized me for not giving one the benefit of the doubt, and yet you had just done it yourself.
You want me to make sure that I’ve taken in the whole of what your saying, and yet you just took a “quick glance” at my posts.
To be honest with you, I spent quite some time reading over what you’ve written. I reference quotes mainly for organization, but also so that you know what I’m commenting to. I treat every post this way.
Frankly, if I were in your shoes with cancer starting in my my 20s I’d probably be struggling a little bit with bitterness. ESpecially if I wrote a post lambasting organized religion and their yuppy SUVers and lack of help to the sick, in reference to lack of church help in my own life.
Did I assume wrongly? Maybe.
What would your phsychoanlaysis say if it was me writing that? What else would be inferred? The entire post was stereotyped.
Isnt that what psychologists do anyway? Read between what people are saying and what they mean?
Regardless of my faults and if you took me as talking past you as superior or condesending, why would you respond the same, esp if you wish me to believe there is a better way? Why did you assume my asking of your needs was dense?
My goal wasnt to talk past you. You already expressed a disdain for people trying to use “comforting” phrases over your suffering. So I talked at you instead.
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