Are evangelicals too Republican?
Are evangelicals too closely associated with the culture of conservative politics? I was really challenged by this question after reading Bill Bishop’s The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart. The book explains how Americans have clustered and isolated themselves geographically and socially by political affiliation. Liberals live and socialize with liberals and conservatives live and socialize with other conservatives. We no longer mix. To my surprise, Bishop expands the discussion by reporting that evangelicalism is now a place where being a Christian and a registered Republican are synonyms for Christian orthodoxy.
Bishop frames the narrative this way: Beginning in the 1970s Americans sorted themselves into neighborhoods and social networks with those sharing similar political views. The conservatives moved to the suburbs and the liberals stayed closer to the city. This sorting also determined the growth of suburban evangelical churches on the principle that “like attracts like.” According to Bishop, the “real white flight” of the past two generations was not simply racial but ideological, which created communities and neighborhoods that were more or less either Republican or Democratic. It became more and more the norm by the 1980s for neighbors to share similar political agendas and perspectives. Using voting data, Bishop demonstrates that these neighborhood-based trends hold true today as well.
The “big sort,” as Bishop describes in Chapter 7, resulted in evangelicals becoming more and more associated with Republican politics, especially upper income Christians, rather than distinct theological positions. As evangelical churches were planted in the suburbs, combined with rise of megachurches, it’s not too surprising that in the past two generations the Republican Party has experienced its largest growth among middle- and upper-class suburban Americans. In 1960, 60 percent of evangelicals identified themselves as Democrats, but by 1988 that number was down to 40 percent. What happened?
Bishop suggests that churches today promote themselves as socially and politically tribal. That is, “You’ll like this church. There are people like you already there.” Churches are safe spaces to have one’s personal social and political values affirmed.
Bishop isn’t the only one asking questions about whether or not conservative politics too closely defines Christian orthodoxy. Here are a few other books that have been recommended to me:
- The Rapture of Politics: The Christian Right as the United States Approaches the Year 2000, by Steve Bruce, et al.
- White Protestant Nation: The Rise of the American Conservative Movement, by Alan Lichtman.
- Right Face: Organizing the American Conservative Movement, 1945-65, by Niels Bjerre-Poulson.
- Suburban Warriors: The Origins of the New American Right, by Lisa McGirr.
- Millennial Dreams and Apocalyptic Nightmares: The Cold War Origins of Political Evangelicalism, by Angela Lahr.
These books raise interesting questions for me. For example: Does the conflation of faith and politics explain why evangelicalism’s 20-somethings seem bitter to some? Is it possible that evangelicalism’s children born in the 1980s and ’90s don’t know how to be a Christian without being a Republican? If you can be a pro-choice Republican, can you be an anti-abortion Democrat and still be a faithful follow of Jesus Christ? Does being a Christian mean that one should limit one’s social network and place of residence to communities dominated by Republicans and social conservatives? Moreover, does this explain, in part, why evangelicalism is so isolated from Christians in the black and Hispanic communities who are not Republicans? Has the GOP taken advantage of the “big sort” in the past? There are more questions to ask for sure, and I’m not certain what all the all answers are either, but it’s clear that conservative social clustering is causing many to question whether or not evangelicalism seeks to make disciples of Jesus Christ or to grow the GOP.

















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back to top151 Comments to “Are evangelicals too Republican?”
Anthony, sometimes I have to wonder: just what is your purpose in writing for World Magazine?
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Yeah, Anthony. Everyone knows Jesus was Republican.
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Anthony, are atheists too closely associated with the culture of liberal politics?
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Yes, evangelcal conservatives are pathologically loyal to the R party even though it is often at odds with blue collar social conservatism’s announced values.
Likewise in aggregate blacks in the USA are way too loyal to a Democratic party which has pursued agenda bullets often far removed from the common sense and/or biblical values held by most black Christians.
The ProLife movemt did itself a huge disservice by not establishing board member seats for proLife Democrats. The loss of bipartisan defense of the rights of the unborn is a huge tragedy.
Next question, Sir!
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What’s really weird is pricy high-dollar mainly caucasian megachurches are often so close to downtrodden minority predominant gummint housing projects.
So close yet so far as they say.
The big divider is and continues to be marital status. Married women will always be more conservative. But let that same gal get dumped and become a single mom with no man’s paycheck! They readily morph into uberLibs. Always have.
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We have plenty of both at my PCA church…I’m thinking the times are starting to change Mr. Bradley.
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Thought-provoking piece, Anthony. Maybe a good follow-up article might be why liberals are primarily godless and why they have a propensity to advocate for and kill their young.
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Anthony, are homosexualists and abortionists too closely associated with leftist politics?
The answer to this and the above questions may help you understand why many evangelicals have gravitated toward conservativism in politics.
Forty or fifty years ago, both parties were proud to have strong Christians in their ranks and to have such associations. What changed was the radical secularization of the Democrat Party and NOT so much that evangelicals became over-politicized. It was the Democrat Party that first politicized issues like abortion, marriage, homosexuality and such in order to garner more votes through constituency connections with people who wanted to change social norms to suit their pleasures and preferences.
Evangelicals today hold the same stance toward those moral issues as they used to but the Democrats have re-defined them as political issues and then accused the evangelicals of suddenly being tooo “political.” Evangelical options for compatibility with the Democrat Party were diminished as that Party tied itself to special interest groups that defy or resist meaningful connection with evangelical convictions and sensibilities.
But how convenient if we can popularize the notion that the evangelicals are the ones who are redefining themselves on political terms and doing most of the changing of their fundamental ideology and priorities. Who cares if it is not even true?
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Here is a question can a Christian be a Dem? Since the Dem Party support the killing of babies and gay’s rights?
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Joel Mark (#8),
Great post. Thanks!
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I was a pro-life Democrat for years. I saw the reality of what Joel Mark is saying. I know many who felt forced out of the party. I know some who stayed. I am now involved in no party. I live among Democrats and those who favor abortion and any number of things I believe God hates.
I think this is a good question to ask ourselves and examine. We do need to keep in mind Joel Mark’s point also. Who really changed?
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Pastor Roy, (9) That post is one arguement in favor of the thesis that Evangelicals are too entrenched with the Republican party, IMO.
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Anthony wrote; “In 1960, 60 percent of evangelicals identified themselves as Democrats, but by 1988 that number was down to 40 percent. What happened?”
The Democrats morphed too far into moral relativism and nihilism.
Also, evangelicals saw moral issues being rebranded by Democrats as “political ones” in order to garner votes from those who wanted to politically empower their moral [or immoral] priorities and choices.
Then, buying into the new branding, we mindlessly accuse evangelicals (who have retained their moral convictions consistently over the years) of becoming overly political.
It is actually the evangelicals who are sufficiently independent in their thinking to be able to CHANGE their political affiliations (usually from Democrat to Republican) to retain their deeper convictions. In actuality, evangelicals are the ones who have shown the greatest ability to stay rooted in their faith-based convictions and allow their less central political afficilations to be uprooted in deference to their higher moral convictions.
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I managed to be a single woman voting Republican and living in a big city (for a few years, even living in an all-black neighborhood in the city). No suburbs for me, if I can help it, and yet I’m a conservative and I usually vote Republican, and I edit books on caring for the poor. Go figure. I guess people don’t always fit in neat little boxes.
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Anthony asked; “Does the conflation of faith and politics explain why evangelicalism’s 20-somethings seem bitter to some?”
Clearly not. The bitterness of some 20-somethings is rooted in a misunderstanding of what actually happened. Their experiential connection with actual history tends to be weak and so some have been successfully manipulated by the left to resent Republicans. Some 20-somethings are too suseptible to mere re-branding (confusing brands with reality). It was the left that first conflated politics with primarily moral issues and evangelicals have walked away from that inappropriate conflatiohn because evangelicals (unlike Democrats) hold morality at a higher level than politics.
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KI that is the struggle……. how can a Christian support someone who pushing anti-christian views..
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Married women will always be more conservative. But let that same gal get dumped and become a single mom with no man’s paycheck! They readily morph into uberLibs.
The comment is gratuitous, confused, and misogynist .
Married women are indeed more conservative than single “gals.” So what?
Married women are not as conservative as men.
Single “gals” are not morphing leeches.
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Pastor Roy, can everything the Republican party does be called “pro-Christian”?
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I want to repeat and emphasize that last point: “…evangelicals (unlike Democrats) hold morality at a higher level than politics.”
Even in the realm of compassion for the needy, evangelical Republicans tend to reject the notion that concerns in this moral realm should be shifted largely away from ourselves to political structures. We tend to go farther in taking personal and community responsibility for such efforts without relegating it excessively to the state. We have seen and we affirm that the state cannot fix our lives or be our nanny in any meaningful or successful sense. We do not exclude the state from such concerns altogether, but we advocate a limited role for the state that conforms to the principles of the Constitution. Thus, evangelicals (in my opinion) tend to be more generous and active in compassion-oriented endeavors at all levels (not just political), private and public.
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CHERYL D. – I congratulate you for your independence. I’m wondering how your experience fits into the functional relationship that SAWGUNNER expresses for the elements [female, paycheck, conservatism]. Who pays your paycheck, CHERYL D.? Please prove SAWGUNNER wrong and tell us you are paid by Oxford UP.
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hopesprings – that is the struggle, when Chistian get locked into one party.
The fact is when you look at the Democrat Party, you do not see any Christian Values. You see many anti-Christian values being pushed.
When you look at the Republican party you do see an attempt to promote some type of Christian Values. I have found the Republican party being more open minded to the Christian way of thing, and the Democrat Party more close minded to the Christian way of thing.
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CHERYL D. – On further considertion, don’t answer, and please forgive me for putting you into the path of SAWGUNNER’s mysogyny. You can relate your own experience to your political values without having to answer to SAWGUNNER’s insulting maxims about what “gals” do.
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#18 – “…can everything the Republican party does be called ‘pro-Christian’?
Easy!!! Of course not. I don’t think this is the contention of any serious Christian on the right either.
Once I helped walk precincts for a Republican candidate for congress and I was even invited to his victory party. The atmosphere at this party made me, as a Christian, very uncomforatble. It reminded me that my ties to my church and my spiritual convictions exost at an much much much much higher (and deeper) level than my pracitical support for a Republican. But my ultimate and higher citizenship in heaven does not necessarily obliterate my citizenship in the USA. I have always known well which one comes first and which one will last into eternity.
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I think their close linkage with the Republican Party has harmed the American evangelical church by muddying the waters between what is truth and what is expediency.
I think some of the social concerns of the Democratic Party have value, but they’re distorted by political expediency.
That’s why I don’t belong to either party.
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Evangelicals are too Republican any time being Republican is more important than being CHRISTian. I think we probably very easily slip into thinking and behaving as if many things are more important that Christ; though we tend to deny the slip by claiming we are following Christ there. My sin enslaved neighbor should know my Christ testimony much more clearly than he knows my political party convictions; and too often he does not.
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ANTHONY – Thanks for this post, which has been a long time coming. The analysis that you describe is complex, ambitious, powerful, and congruent with much of what we know.
Right wingers on this thread hate it, infallibly, as a betrayal. It gives independent voters a powerful tool for resisting the right while giving Evangelical Republicans nothing with which to help themselves. The analysis enables independents to understand and objectify the right wing, but it offers Evangelical Republicans no path out of their ideological tribalism.
There is a path out — Biblically-informed rhetoric. The map is fairly clear but I’m afraid the way is more narrow than Evangelical Republicans are used to traveling.
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5. It has been my experience that the big churches are more likely to be racial diverse than the small ones. You are less likely to be the only or the first person of your race to visit or join.
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I am profoundly proud of the evangelical movement overall for generally NOT allowing political party ties to trump moral conviction. We have gonve farther than most to show the ability to actually leave party ties (mostly Democrat ties) when that political party departed from our deeper moral and spiritual convictions. Evangelicals have shown their spiritual priorities over politics better than any other category of Americans I can cite.
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I am profoundly proud of the evangelical movement overall for generally NOT allowing political party ties to trump moral conviction.
It’s a matter of opinion, I guess, that moral conviction is trumping, and has trumped, political party ties among evangelicals. Given earlier discussions on this topic here in which you’ve been invovled, I’m surprised you state your view so strongly.
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Michelle’s post (#24) resonates. Christian political activism is easily caricatured and diffuses the Gospel proclamation. Well intentioned, our attack against abortion and homosexuality is our defining characteristic for many Americans. We’re another advocacy group vying for rights. Shouldn’t we be known by our sacrificial care for – and identification with – the disenfranchised? Should we encourage legal remedies to restrain the sin of a people with no constitution for it? We are the salt of the earth. We still vote. But I’m not sure we’re building the kingdom as the “evangelical right”.
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I’ve been reading Edward Gibbon just for fun. I won’t get into a debate about whether or not Evangelicals are true to their moral convictions. Let’s assume that they are magnificently true to whatever conviction happens to be at the top of their priorities. Edward Gibbon faulted Christians for demanding that the state be the instrument of their convictions, regardless of the convictions of others.
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“Are evangelicals too closely associated with the culture of conservative politics?”
When a mormon with a conservative talk show organizes a rally and “evangelicals” get all tingly and claim this individual to be an on-fire, born-again Christian – there is a problem. It is my understanding that “The 7: Seven Wonders That Will Change Your Life” makes clear the “beliefs” of this individual.
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#32 Just what are the 7 Wonders? Save me the cost of a book.
#17 My statement is basically a restatemt of an observation made by Professor Olasky.
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The man who did the most to define and revitalize modern conservatism among the intellectual elite was.. a devout committed Roman Catholic named WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR
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Professor Olasky also teaches that Evangelical hypocrisy is a net virtue.
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#30 We ARE known for our “sacrificial care for the disenfranchised”. We fund hospitals, schools, scholarships and food drives. But our culture doesn’t want us to notice why some people’s disenfranchisement (is that a word) or powerlessness comes about. If it’s because people are intentionally immoral i.e., have babies out of wedlock and using what little money they can earn in this economy to buy useless entertainment then we don’t feel obligated to continually care sacrifically. I heard a commercial for some project on helping kids finish school or something on a Detroit station. They were talking about how kids can’t do their school work and attend because they have to get their mothers to dialysis and care for their aging grandparents. I’m sorry….where are those kids? I have been working in this system now for 22 years and I probably don’t need both hands to count how many of those situations I’ve run into. Give me a break. Who do these people think they are kidding?
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Edward Gibbon faulted Christians for demanding that the state be the instrument of their convictions, regardless of the convictions of others.
Among those who would advocate this or that law, of which of those persons/groups is this statement not true?
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#30 Yes we want the state to protect the unborn. It was their parents whose actions set in motion their creation, so it’s only fair that they not be pulled (litterally) limb from limb. What other conviction do we want the state to be an instrument of?
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Joel Mark-
I’m sorry to say that I am disapointed in you. When I ready “I want to repeat and emphasize that last point: “…evangelicals (unlike Democrats) hold morality at a higher level than politics.”
EVANGELICAL unlike DEMOCRATS?! Are you serious? I’m going to go off script here and ask you, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY THINK THAT YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO SAY THAT DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN!!!!????
You have proven Anthony’s point. The Christian Right has added the need to be Republican to John 3:16. The Christian Right would now pen the words “…whoever believes in him, and is a Republican, should not perish but have eternal life…whoever believes not, and is a Democrat, is condemned already”.
WOW.
I know of a sincere couple that started to attend our church. They left after being told that you cannot be a Democrat and a Christian! It sickened me.
Let me go one step further, and really attack the politcal Right: Where have they EVER wathced out for the worker that is being abused by the employer!? As much as it is wrong for the Left to demonize the employer, it is also wrong for the Right to demonize the wronged employee. I hear both, time and time again.
STOP PUTTING A POLITICAL LITMUS TEST ON THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, PLEASE.
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“You are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Ephesians.
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Anthony, WAGUS and others,
Would you prefer it if Christians stepped out to ensure that only committed non-Christians participated in politics as indoviduals or as organized activists?
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WAGUS asked, “Shouldn’t we be known by our sacrificial care for – and identification with – the disenfranchised?”
Sure! In no way does this mean we should abandon to any extent our courageous advocacy for the family, our moral convictions, for children being protected (pro-life) and having fathers and mothers (the integrity of marriage).
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BROTHERDAN wrote; “EVANGELICAL unlike DEMOCRATS?! Are you serious?”
Absolutely. Obviously, I meant it in context as a fair and accurate generalization about those categories based on the fact that we have seen more evangelicals (in comparison to all other groups I know of) leave their party ties (often leaving their Democrat ties) to seek more consistency with their Christian convictions.
BROTHERDAN, As for your presumption that I said that Democrats cannot be Christians, that’s rridiculous in the extreme. Never said it. Never hinted it. Never thought it. Why did you make that up?
The wildly bizarre and unhinged conclusions you drew about my point of view have zero to do with anything I wrote. Frankly, you are scaring me.
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I have shared the following quote from Barack Obama before, and it is fitting to share it again here to illustrate that it is he (from the hard left) who seeks to use political presumptions, ties and offices to create a kingdom [of God] on earth:
* “Sometimes this is a difficult road being in politics… Sometimes you can seek power just for power’s sake instead of because you want to do service to God. I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God… I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.” Senator Barack Hussein Obama, October 7, 2007, addressing a church in South Carolina in the early stages of his campaign to be president.
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I do not mean to be obtuse, why would a Christian be drawn to the Democratic party? What is the Democratic party correct about? In what way is the Democratic party good?
I have seen nothing to admire or to vote for.
I am not trying to be snotty or stuck up. I don’t like anything about any Democratic position.
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Ok, and this explains why gerrymandered districts look so square (sarcasm). People picking neighborhoods based on how much they are like their neighbors may be true in some places, but probably not so much anymore.
I don’t think the Republican party is conservative enough. And I’m a married woman and just as conservative as my husband. This is why I refuse to register with a party just so that I can vote in primary elections, silly New York state.
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Joel Mark: Courageously with humility and compassion. I’m not saying to abstain from voting or voicing an opinion. You have the right to individually exercise your political voice. But the church collectively undermines its mission with political advocacy. I can easily become strident and angry about abortion. It’s like throwing babies into Gehenna. But my indignation can’t be used to lead a single soul to Christ.
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Liberals, MACRUTABAGA, don’t drive through every conversation like an ambulance on the way to a rescue or accuse you of murder because you won’t let the police lock up people who carry concealed, 31-round automatics to political rallies. Real children blow each others brains out every day, thanks to laws that y’all support, but liberals blame the laws, they don’t accuse people who oppose gun controll of being Satan.
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Brotherdan (#39),
My opinion is that one of the most, if not the most, important issues of our time is THE RIGHT TO LIFE!!
Read Joelmark’s post #8 -.
The Democrat Party has come down squarely in favor of the “RIGHT” to an abortion. The Republican Party has done the exact opposite and is championing the righ to LIFE.
For me, that’s enough to (almost always) favor those Republicans who agree with that plank in the platform, i.e. the right ro LIFE!
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Thomas Schelling demonstrated in the 60’s how slightly discriminating populations will polarize. He described two populations, black and white, where both wanted a neighborhood mix of 55% like themselves and 45% other. He showed how this desired mix wound up completely diverging the populations. Blacks over here, whites over there, despite relatively tame preferences.
The world will always segregate this way, even with preferences we would never call racist. The question really becomes, do we look just like the world or are we living out our peculiarity? If the first, Evangelicals will group together *because they are just like the world!*
If we practice the latter Evangelicals will be found among every group living out our faith.
Are you peculiar?
Nathanael Snow
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Becky F. (#46),
You said “I don’t think the Republican party is conservative enough.”
I agree! BUT, it’s getting better IMO.
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It’s fiscally more conservative, but there’s an urge to minimize social issues to token status. Didn’t the esteemed governor oF Indiana call for a truce?
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Right to life = Right to the jailhouse keys
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Scroop Moth, 48: That ain’t no answer to my question, nohow. You’re channeling the style of the very goofs of the right you, rightly, deride. Bah! to that.
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Republicans focus on the “Thou shalt nots” of life when it comes to people yet see no evil when it comes to business.
As long as they can continue to convince evangelicals that there are more evil individual “outsiders” or “others” trying to ruin their lives in very vague ways than there are businesses and corporations exploiting them, the alliance will sustain.
As long as evangelicals believe that massive government support for businesses is right and just, while support for needy individuals constitutes “handouts”, the alliance will sustain.
It seems exquisitely clear to me that the Jesus of the bible was no friend to the wealthy and certainly would not have condoned the way our system allows the greedy and the corrupt to hide behind corporate veils. Accountability is a central message of his, yet we allow and even encourage corporate planners and employees to do do evil things while never being held personally accountable.
I guess that’s why today’s evangelicalism today has virtually nothing to do with Jesus. And a lot to do with Republicanism.
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BROTHERDAN,
My response to you at #43 was more strongly worded (in that last paragraph) than it needed to be. I was just astonished that you thought I said that Democrats could not be Christins. That is not something I think in any way. But I do have serious problems with Democrats and I do think evangelicals who have left the Democrat Party to become something else have good reason.
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Mac -
The positive, not accusatory, not mimicking answer to your #37 question is: none. All have sinned and come short of the glory of Kant’s categorical imperative.
The weaselly answer is: None, but, all sinners are not equally egregious.
I suspected that all you wanted to hear was “none” — we all want to use government as an instrument of our personal convictions. So true. But, conservatives are far more authoritarian, and there’s a difference between wanting to restrain the use of civic force against corporal liberty and wanting to aggrandize and unleash police power.
Liberals want women to be free to choose “life,” as you call it, or abortion. That’s a personal conviction of most Democrats, so we want the courts to obstruct the criminalizes. In that regard, we’re “the same” as conservatives who want to use government to carry out their personal objective of preventing women from choosing abortion. There’s an important difference, however, which makes liberals more principled and less self-interested than conservatives. Liberals want to restrain government from using criminal process (indeed, capital process) to enforce laws which lack universal moral assent. That’s good in itself, no? Doesn’t that principle make liberals more noble with respect to Kant’s second and third maxims?
So, no, we’re not all equally egregious. Conservatives are far more authoritarian.
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WAGUS<
Thank you for your reply at #47.
I no longer consider myself an expert on how church's "undermine" its mission. Frankly, I think there are a meriad of ways they can be and do as a church body that God can bless, including being a conscientious and vocal force on moral and sometimes even political issues in society. God cares about people and how we live, you know.
* If Christian leaders had not been in the forefront of the anti-slavery movement, then slavery would have existed a lot longer.
* If preachers throughout the Boston area had been silent about what the abusive judges were doing at the Salem Witch trisls in the 17th century, then a lot more people would have died. They led the way in resisting it.
* If ministers had stayed out of the political arena on Civil Rights, we may never have made progress against racism.
* Now, I believe God wills that His church be a courageous and conscientious (and graceful) voice with regard to the sanctity of human life and of marriage. Shame on us if we displease God on these matters with our silence when it is so clear what our message must be.
Christians have done good and bad in this world. Christians get most criticized when they do either. But we aim to please God first and foremost.
Frankly, I think God can even use our indignation to lead a soul to Christ if He sees fit.
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WAGUS,
Thank you for your response at #47.
I no longer consider myself an expert on how the church can “undermine” its mission. I think a lot of good can be done when we take conscientious stands on moral issues. I think God can even use Christians who are acting out of conviction in the political advocacy arena. Why not? He’s God.
I have seen God even use sincere “indignation” in his people to lead souls to Christ. I have even seen God use my mistakes to lead souls to salvation. People respct us most when we are real. Of course, secularists who want abortion and homosexuality to flurish without opposition get mad at us when we speak out, but what else is new? Sometimes getting mad is what they need. Sometimes getting mad is the first step for ending up in the arms of our Lord, once they repent.
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Oops. Pardon the bold font.
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Many Purtan parsons and Quackers were indignant and made a lot of people mad when they stood up and spoke out against slavery.
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. was indignant and made a lot of people mad when he marched for civil rights.
Now is our time to stand up for the sanctity of life and of marriage.
God used them in positive ways, I think. And they went a long way in improving the reputation of church/spiritual leaders in America. But they were unpopular in their time and many paid for their courage.
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Scroop Moth, if laws against pedophilia lack “universal moral assent” does it therefore become “wrong” to support such laws? Is slavery OK if we get a large enough consensus in favor?
What a weird way to choose “right” and “wrong.” Psst, it might be in your best interest to continue to live in a land with a Christian history, where some vestige of Christian morality still forms the community conscience. Because in lands with a different “standard” for “morality,” such things as stoning a woman for being raped, or killing and eating an enemy, or marrying six-year-old girls, end up being on the list of things that are morally acceptable by community consent. And no, you can’t call them wrong, by your own fuzzy moral road map.
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Joel Mark post 60, I know how Quakers got their name, but I’m rather curious about this group of Quackers.
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By remaining relatively silent on the Bush administration’s use of torture, older evangelicals lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of younger evangelicals. I think that younger evangelicals would also like to see older evangelicals take an interest in issues that don’t relate to sex (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage).
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Not all liberal-backed laws enjoy universal moral assent. Not hardly.
Sheesh.
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Evan, I never heard of any inappropriate use of torture. In fact, except for waterboarding the most extreme, dangerous prisoners, I personally never heard about “torture” at all. (Waterboarding isn’t a clear instance of torture, from what I hear.) Perhaps I’ve missed something, but honestly if people “lose credibility” for not speaking out on something like that, then it must be pretty easy to lose credibility!
And it’s hard to say what qualifies as “older” evangelicals (I’m in my forties–do I qualify?), but MANY of us have been/are involved in ministry that has nothing directly to do with sex (ministry to the poor, foster care and adoption, prison ministry, and so on)–hang out on this blog a bit and listen just to the ministries that those of us on here do. Yes, some of us are involved in pregnancy ministries (and we should be, if we care for the poor!), and we speak out about the harm of sexual sin . . . but it is most definitely a stereotype that our only “interests” relate to sexual issues.
The very fact that sexual sin is considered acceptable to a huge percentage of young “evangelicals” proves that older generations have not done too much in relation to sexual issues, but rather too little.
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It is dead wrong to be silent about the use of torture by Islamic jihadists! They do it to innocent people and NOT to get information that would save innocent lives. I am deeply grateful, however, to those in our military and in law enforcement during the Bush administration who made significant sacrifices to protect the innocent against Islamic jihadists and were able to get information from known mass murderers and terrorists that actually and verifiably saved INNOCENT lives.
I am also glad that the Obama administration has seen fit to abandon all their rash and grand-standing vows and promises to change the defense structures that the Bush administration implemented. Obama has retained the Patriot Act and Gitmo is still there in full function. Obama learned that keeping his promises would hurt America severely.
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EVAN, speaking frankly, I think that evangelicals lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of some younger evangelicals because many young evangelicals have been largely lied to by the left (media, academics, celebrities and others) for political gain for the left. Evangelicals get smeared all the time. Sometimes the young believe the smears. Some young people (certainly not all) are too vulnerable to emotional appeals, re-branding, unproven stereotypes, and marketing political hype.
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Joel Mark, hold firm. You are right. Ovejectively, demonstrably right.
People, we must not let folks on the left frame the discussion It is not about Evangelicals being too conservative or too committed to the Republican Party. Joel Mark is right when he says that it is about Evangelicals standing up for morality and happening to find the Republican Party a bit more hospitable toward that stand. If anything, the Republican Party has been a tool that Evangelicals have tried to use to retain (or restore) some decency in America. That’s all. Nobody worships the GOP or puts it before God or confuses it with the Church. It’s sad to hear Christians accepting the rubbish that we do so.
And please let’s not let them bring us down and accuse us of siding, against the teachings of Jesus, with the rich. We give to the poor, and we know that we do. Besides, one of the best things that could be done for the poor would be to have a vibrant, growing economy with plenty of jobs and a lower inflation rate. The very best thing would be for them (for all os us, actually) to once again value human life, and the marriage covenant, and the responsibility to care for one’s family.
Above all, let’s not feel guilty for one second when they throw out the attacks that we are racist, misogynist, or homophobic. We aren’t, as a group. It’s a lie, one designed to guilt us into silence and inactivity. Don’t fall for it, please.
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#57 Scroop Moth: Isn’t hate crime legislation an counterexample to your claim that “Liberals want to restrain government from using criminal process”? What’s you explanation for the unequal distribution of morality between political parties: “liberals more principled and less self-interested than conservatives”?
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Arcadia: How do you explain the accusation by Jesus’ enemies that he ate and drank with sinners and publicans? By the way, there are evangelicals that oppose Corporate Welfare.
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#58 Joel Mark: I’m sure you’re correct. Christian’s necessarily unmask sin when their personal conduct and conversation reflects Christ. But I’m wary of identification with a specific political party. I read the WSJ Editorial Page each day. They never endorse a party or candidate. Their editorials are a polemic for economic freedom and they critisize and applaud both parties based on specific planks. I think the Editorial Board largely votes largely Republican, but I doubt they belong to – or speak for – that party. It should be the same with us. Remember Mother Theresa’s statement at the National Prayer Breakfast, which President Clinton attended?
“Please don’t kill the child. I want the child. Please give me the child. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted, and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child, and be loved by the child. From our children’s home in Calcutta alone, we have saved over 3,000 children from abortions. These children have brought such love and joy to their adopting parents, and have grown up so full of love and joy!”
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#24
I applaud the R folks for being predominantly committed to the ProLife cause. There are proAbortion R folks [most notably David Stockman and his wife..] but they are a minority view in the big tent. Still I think the R folks are a bit more tolerant/welcoming of proAborts than D are of proLifers.
In recent years the proLife D folks have welded opposition to Roe to opposition to capital punishmt. Not sure if you can establish moral equiv between innocent unborn child and convicted killer.
The avg evangelical proLife conservative is welcome in the R party. Those folks are as predictably/reliably R as black folks or AFL-CIO are predictably/reliably D. You dont hear and you won’t hear of anyone having to compete for evanglical “swing voters”.
That is as unlikely to happen as D folks having to compete for proAbort “swinger voters”, no??
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Anthony,
Thanks for the article. As for those who ask if a Christian can be a democrat since they support abortion and gay rights, could we not also ask if a Christian can be a republican when they seem to love every war that comes along, enabling many of them to make lots of money while the best and brightest of just about every generation are killed with no visible results from the war ie Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan. It would seem that the republican presidents actions have resulted in more deaths in war than all the democratic presidents actions on abortion have ever done. A presidents stand on abortion seldom impacts the number of abortions carried out in this country since the issue was taken over by the judiciary. Presidents can, and often have, sent our men off to die with only their own actions.
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As for Kyle A comment about the republicans being more moral, wasn’t it a republican congressman that just had to resign because he was married and looking for women on Craig’s list?
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It seems some are trying to use unfounded stereotyping as legitimate argument.
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74. A democrat wouldn’t have had to resign.
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#45, Bob,
The answer to your question about what the Democrats are correct about is: they are correct about Political Correctness. PC is a neo-Marxist ideology from the Frankfurt School. It is an evil worldview that opposes all aspects of the Christian worldview and is the root cause for the destruction of our culture. For the most part, the Repubs do represent the Christian worldview but even that party is slipping to Marxism more and more. The Tea Party and the Constitution Party are better representatives of the Christian worldview.
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I wonder why neither Jesus nor His Apostles were focused on the political processes of their day. I wonder why Jesus didn’t organize His Church as a political power. Is it possible that the Church is most effective when it focuses on transforming people rather than transforming politics? Transformed people transform the culture in which they live. I can hear the “yes, but” already. Why didn’t Jesus focus on both?
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#75: “It seems some are trying to use unfounded stereotyping as legitimate argument.”
Exhibit A:
#76 “A democrat wouldn’t have had to resign.”
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Neil, one reason (besides that all of God’s people have different things they were created to do and that Jesus, being God’s son had one main thing He had to do) is that our government is by, of and for the people. IOW, we are to be influencing the government. It is part of all citizen’s responsiblity. We cannot shirk that by saying we are Christians. Some Christians are called to be more involved than others. That is a different situation in Jesus’ time and also a completely different situation than some Christians, in various parts of the world, live in today.
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NEIL EVANS wrote; “I wonder why neither Jesus nor His Apostles were focused on the political processes of their day.”
Respectfully, think again. In Jesus’ day, the political process in Israel was quite blended with the religious (no sep of church & civil authorities there) and the Sadducees, Scribes and Pharisees were the politicians. Jesus was highly focused on them AND the political processes they initiated.
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STAUPITZ,
Has anyone said that all Republicans are more moral than all Democrats or any other group? And again to BrotherDan, has anyone said that no Democrat can be a Christian?
No and no. Stay focused please. Wisdom often requires that we speak and think in fair and general terms to identify trends and priorities.
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WAGUS,
I identify with the R party purely because I want to participate in the primaries and because I realize that no decent candidate can EVER get elected without some organization. If you do not want to participate in any effort to help organize or unite conservatives for political progress or electoral preference, that is your right. But you are holding open the door for hard left Democrats who are well organized. It’s a pragmatic decision because politics is a pragmatic enterprise.
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#77 RW Hawk
Thank you. I am still waiting for answers from others. There are two posters on WMB who occasionally say they see, or saw, some good in the Democratic party. I am only 63, not old enough to have seen much of that “good.”
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79. Exhibit B: Bill Clinton
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Joel. I don’t have an easy answer. I only make the distinction of an individual role versus the greater church collectively.
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STAUPITZ,
You have grossly and completely mischaracterized the general Republican policy or approach to past wars with your abuse of the word “love” I think your mis-representation was intentional so I don’t feel like engaging you on it.
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Stand by the love comment. Many do because they make buckets of money off of it. General Eisenhower warned us years ago.
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Stand by a grotesque lie then. Fine.
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ROTFL
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CherylD:Because in lands with a different “standard” for “morality,” such things as stoning a woman for being raped, or killing and eating an enemy, or marrying six-year-old girls, end up being on the list of things that are morally acceptable by community consent.
As you well know, stoning disobedient children to death, murdering entire tribes, polygamy and raping children are all direct commands by your god or his prophets contained in your bible. Obviously then, they were not considered immoral then. But they are now. And the evidence concerning slavery in your bible is also pretty clear.
So…does what is or is not moral change over time? And isn’t that process “fuzzy”?
And as for this gem:
Waterboarding isn’t a clear instance of torture, from what I hear.
You might want to experience having your body completely immobilized by vicious men, a towel wrapped tightly around your mouth and nose and copious amounts of water poured on it until you feel you are about to drown, perhaps 6 or 7 times a day before you opine on such matters. It certainly doesn’t seem fuzzy to me.
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I guess we don’t speak the same language, STAUPITZ.
“ROTFL” would not score you any points in Scrabble.
But the best I can presume is that you have been duped by unhinged haters. I am a Republican and I hate war. In fact, I know of not one Republican who loves it. Not one, and I know thousands. I do, however, personally know those very close to me who have lost their son to one. No love for it there either, sir.
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Joel Mark:
You object to the word “love,” but can you name any modern war that the Republicans have been against? Let’s start at WW2. I understand that there were many isolationist Republicans who didn’t want us to get involved in another European War, but the modern Republican party would in no way proudly claim that as its heritage. So let’s use post-WWII as a launching point.
Korean War?
Vietnam War?
The Cold War?
Reagan-Era Conflicts in Central America?
Persian Gulf War?
Iraq War?
War in Afghanistan?
When has the modern Republican party ever taken a principled stand against war?
If Staupitz had instead said, “should we not also ask if a Christian can be a republican when they seem to
lovesupport every war that comes along,” could you dispute his premise?Report comment to moderator
JJF asked; “You object to the word “love,” but can you name any modern war that the Republicans have been against?”
YES! Republicans are dead against the real war that Islamist jihadists have already declared and implemented on us and other innoecnt people. Most Republicans and many decent Democrats and others see that the jihadists are as real and evil as the Nazis were and must be stopped. And we have supported our view with real life sacrifices that hurt deeply. We hate that war, but we will not surrender to them.
Also, I was against the Kosovo war. We did not lose much in it but we did support a desperately evil side in that conflict–but maybe no more evil than the side we opposed. The choices were bad either way.
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JJF asked, “When has the modern Republican party ever taken a principled stand against war?”
The Republicans (along with many decent Democrats and others) have taken a principled AND a practical sacrificial stand AGAINST the war declared upon us by the jihadists. It (along with many decent Democrats and others) stood up AGAINST to the invation of Saddam to take over Kuwait.
______________
The USA played a contructive role in most of the more historical conlicts you mentioned. The world would be much worse without our military involvement in most of them. Our congress, however, was not so noble in the mid-70s in selling out South Vietnam and breaking our word to them and unfunding and undermining our mission there. Millions were murdered in SouthEast Asia by the communists after we deserted and defunded them and millions more refugees died in the sea and some survived abroad.
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Someone else said it first, but I want to point out that I never said that all Republicans are moral.
I said that Evangelicals found the GOP more hospitable to our views and our agenda.
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#91 “As you well know, stoning disobedient children to death, murdering entire tribes, polygamy and raping children are all direct commands by your god or his prophets contained in your bible. Obviously then, they were not considered immoral then. But they are now.” (bolded mine)
A few points:
1 Some references please, WITH context
2 We ( I assume you are referring to the Christians on this board?) do not have a “god”, rather “God” – I know, this distinction means squat to you – I presume!
3 The word of the prophets were not an addition to the words of God, rather they WERE/ARE the words of God.
4 You throw around “things” that you say are from the Bible, as if you really understood them; not so!!
If you bother to answer point #1 with actual references, keep in mind the following which IS from the Bible:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man, [you], receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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WAGUS: Everybody here knows that hate crimes legislation is an example of pushy liberal governance, but nobody has ever explained why, have they? As I understand it, the controversy is not whether hate crimes are crimes but whether US District Attorneys should insult communities by sorting hate crimes out from all the other crimes, as apposed to allowing locals to sweep the embarrassing motives under the rug. The dispute is about distinguishing particular varieties of assault & murder in order to give victims the satisfaction of knowing that courts have assessed the full dimensions of the crime. Hate crimes are about the characterization of crime, not the prosecution per se — I think. This would be using government to education and set community expectations, but not to coerce anyone the otherwise law-abiding. Personally, the reason I support hate crimes legislation is that anything that makes conservatives so livid must be a good idea — but I’ve never had irons in this fire.
What’s you explanation for the unequal distribution of morality between political parties: “liberals more principled and less self-interested than conservatives”? This is an example of a potentially excellent question that must be rejected because it is far more broad than the point I was making and it introduces an extraneous factor (morality).
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“polygamy and raping children” are directly commanded by God?
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#96 – good distinction Kyle A.
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Joel Mark-56
Peace.
I am sorry for my attack.
I will always over react when I sense that obstacles to the kingdom of heavan are raised that Christ hasn’t put there Himself. I am sorry if I misread your intent.
I think you and I agree that it is VERY dangerous to declare who is and isn’t a Christian. I know that we can practice discernment in these matters. I know that we can lead people to Christ and declare them a Christian. But in the end, only God knows who His elect are.
Peace.
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I have yet to see anyone won to Christ as a result of heated, caustic political conversation. I think it tends to polarize people. Most of us are not favorably drawn to seriously listen to someone who is calling us names.
Of course Christians should be involved in politics. It is not a question of whether we should, but of how we should be involved. I am afraid that too many Christians get drawn into political involvement with the same kind of language that non-Christian people use. I think the fruit of the Spirit should be exhibited in every involvement of our lives. And anyone who considers the fruit of the Spirit wimpy does not understand it.
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“Are evangelicals too Republican?”
Um, let’s see. Why would religious conservatives be politically conservative? Gee, that’s a tough one. Hmmmm, I wonder what the connection could be? Let’s see what our panel has come up with:
According to Anthony, it’s always about skin color. His article blames “white flight” and we know how white folks like to stick together. I’d love to hear Anthony do a dissertation on Free Will, because it sounds like his anthropology is that we are mindless protoplasm who make all decisions based on the level of melanin in our collective epidermis.
According to Scroop #48, the reason is because Republicans and Evangelicals support gun laws so kids can blow their brains out.
In #57 Scroop says it is because conservatives are far more authoritarian and liberals want to restrain government. Wow! And Republicans don’t want women to dismember their children like the more principled Democrats do.
According to Arcadia #55 it’s because Republicans and Evangelicals are greedy and don’t want to be like Jesus. In #91 Arcadia says its because Evangelicals love stoning children to death, murdering entire tribes, polygamy and raping children and slavery.
According to Evan #63 it’s because Republicans and Evangelicals like to torture people.
According to Staupiz #73 it’s because Republicans and Evangelicals love war.
That’s some real intellectual stuff right there! Thanks Anthony for starting off this discussion by race baiting. That really set the tone.
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Neil Evans,
Actually, Jesus did organize His church as a political power as He gave us His design for social order involving sphere sovereignty. He issued laws for the moral order of society and prescribed civil government for enforcement of His definition of good and evil. Through His church we are to be the salt and light in the world as well as witnesses to His saving grace. Our Constitution was primarily founded on scripture. Christians do have a profound role to be His ambassadors for His will of social order be it the state, sphere of labor or community, etc.
Your point is well taken that Christians should engage in a winsome manner. Christians should also not shirk their responsibility to witness and disciple. The moral collapse of our society is a result of the church body abdicating its responsibilities as ambassadors and witnesses as well as placing false teachers and doctrines into the denominations.
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So the only war you’re against is the one you say someone else has declared on us. And of course you’ve often made the point (as has the entire Republican party) that the only way to defeat this threat is through a display of superior military might and resolve.
Through war.
So the point stands. There is no modern war that the Republican party has taken a stand against. (Excepting of course the silly word game where you say “we’re against the wars of our enemies”).
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#84 Bob Buckles,
I agree, I’m a ‘49er and haven’t seen any good from the Dems either. Here is a link about Political Correctness you may find fascinating: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2005/may/05051909
There are 6 essays in PDF format towards the bottom of the page that provides great insight into the Democrat party policies, the worldview of our education institutions, NEA, and mass media.
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Anthony,
Two weeks ago you hit it right on the head in why evangelicals need to support urban Christian Day Schools. It was a fabulous piece. I am not going to jump you on this article simply because I think you are trying to get us to think and don’t necessarily support the views of this author.
I would like to repond to the authors views in regards to his “white church” mentality: It is true that generally, Sunday is the most segregated day of the week. This doesn’t mean however that in these “black” or “white” churches are folks how at there root think in a racist fashion whether it be subtely or overt. Let’s be a bet more real here. Part of worship is a sense of belonging or a sense of community. It is a stetch to say if i walking into a black church that I would feel I belonged. Over time I have no doubts that I could belong, but when you are bringing a family into a congregation there is a point in time where you will say: “Is this a place where I could belong?”
If it is a “white” church, great! If it is a “black” church great! If it is a “multi racial” church great! The Sudanese immigrants who have moved to our community have started their own churches. I can imagine they feel like the belong in this community.
As a Christian, I think I should be more concerned that there is a place where they can feel this way and more importantly be spiritually fed. Does that mean they hate us “white” folks? Nope, i don’t believe it in the slightest.
At the end of the day, multi-racial churches I am sure have some real strenghts and probably are able to do things from a community standpoint other churches can’t. But lets not start throwing out the race card when folks who look alike worship together. In the end it is about belonging to a meaningful community to grow in Christ. Doesn’t matter where it happens, just so it does.
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Neil makes a good point above. If we belong to Christ, our civic involvement should demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit. For that reason, we need to be wary of the “culture war” language. America is a mission field, not a battlefield. The battle has already been won through Christ’s death and resurrection.
Also, Hawk, Jesus never taught sphere sovereignty. It’s a philosophical concept that was primarily developed by Dooyeweerd. While Dooyewerd suggests that sphere sovereignty is not inconsistent with Scriptural principles, he nowhere says that Scripture (or Jesus) teaches sphere sovereignty. Further, sphere sovereignty depends on philosophical principles that were generally unarticulated before Kant. Do you really expect us to believe that Jesus was channeling Kant? Come on.
Further, Hawk, our Constitution was NOT primarily founded on Scriptural principles. I’d probably say that the Constitution is not generally inconsistent with Scripture. But it’s not founded on Scripture. The Constitution reflects the thinking of Locke, Hobbes, and Rousseau more than anything else. Consider further that Christianity was near its nadir in America in the late 1780s and 1790s. Not until the late 1810s did Christianity begin to become a social force in America again–more than a quarter century after the Constitution was ratified.
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Wagus, Freedomnut
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. — Numbers 31:15-18
Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts … go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
And I am glad Hawk that you recognize that our constitution with its counting of slaves as 3/5th of a person has such a strong scriptural basis.
Yet somehow, despite scripture, we have managed to become a more civilized country. Our sense of morality has changed and will continue to change. As it has for 5,000 years or so.
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Jesus was often very hostile toward his own “wicked and adulterous generation.” He criticized his culture and his civic and religious leaders quite sharply and caustically. And yes, they killed him for it.
Jesus was not willing to back down from his culture and generational war against sin and wickedness because of some weak notion that he might turn someone off. And he was extremely polarizing. Sometimes the same parable that comforted some, infuriated others, and he knew it.
Bringing more people into God’s kingdom was Jesus’ mission but he did function with some notion that this mission prevented him for telling it like it was to the wicked and the hypocrites and the self-righteous in no uncertain terms.
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Did Jesus, Peter and Paul live in more wicked and adulterous times or are we just too nice to use such morally vivid terms today?
Peter preached in public on Pentecost about his “corrupt generation,” (Acts 2:40) and Paul referred to a generation some 30 years after Jesus as “crooked and depraved (Philippians 2:15).
Moral courage is a must for Christians today! The hearts and lives of little girls and boys hang in the balance! Christians need to take a deeper look at the destructiveness of sin and do more than just be there AFTER sin has done its horrific work on people, innocent victims or not.
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Evan, have you read Beyond Culture Wars by Michael Horton? In 108 you say several things that sound like him there. (I edited the book, one of my all-time favorite editing jobs, if you have read it.)
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#108
Actually, Dooyeweerd got the idea of sphere sovereignty from Abraham Kuyper. It seems to me that Kuyper believed that the concept was dervied directly from scriptural principals as well as from providential experience.
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Evan,
While the red letter verses do not teach sphere sovereignty, the total Bible, the word of God, teaches sphere sovereignty and Jesus is God. This does require right hermenutics.
In addition, the primary work cited as the foundation for the Constitution is the Bible. The works of Coke, Blackstone, Montesque and Locke where based on the Christian worldview, ie; the Bible. The majority of the framers were Christian with a Christian worldview. John Adams summed up the Constitution very eloquently when he stated it was only for a Christian people. Hardly the lack of Christian influence during the time of its framing. John Eidsmoe’s The Christianity and the Constitution balances out the one sided secular interpretation you appear to be using:
Balanced and lucid . . . clearly documents the pervasive Christian influence on the lives and thought of those who wrote our Constitution. I recommend it highly as a corrective to the almost totally secular portrayal of the Constitution found in so many textbooks today.
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Jesus certainly was involved in His world, but He lived and operated from a different Kingdom perspective. He lived in the same world as everyone else, but He lived differently. I sense that we too easily remain “of the world” doing politics just like the world. We may choose to be Republicans for the affinity we feel with their core values. But it does not follow that we do Republican just like non-Christians do it. Talking to Liberals like non-believers talk is not the way Jesus did it. Yes, He used harsh words. But I believe he talked with a heart broken for their captivity rather than with a desire to vanquish their stupidity. Our stooping to throwing callous names at people is living both in and of the world.
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We can be kind and loving to individuals and still be tough in our vocal and active opposition to the network of justification of sin that defines our culture. But I don’t think that any of us have the capacity that Jesus showed to be tough on the sin-justifiers of his day. We would be crucified if we were THAT tough and harsh.
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Arcadia, much of the Old Testament is hard to understand and seems offensive when we’re comparing it to our modern relationships. But I’ve come to believe that it isn’t God that has changed over 6000 years, it’s us that have changed. Evolution in a way within species. Don’t laugh this off. I believe there’s a reason Jesus came in the period of time that he did and humans AND their culture (which is about 80% of our experience) have changed over time so that God deals with us differently now…thus the New Testament dictates. I just read in Lamentations this morning that the author was begging God to mow down and humiliate his enemies. Yet, Jesus says pray for our enemies and be kind to them when we encounter them. What’s changed? I believe our brains, bodies and culture have changed in a God planned way and we can handle different/better instructions now. When you live in a tribal society, maybe killing another tribe and keeping the virgins for youself would be an action that God doesn’t oppose when His goal is to get a certain history and people through to the next stage. Just a stab at making sense of things and responding to your constant referencing of Old Testament passages that are clearly out of our experience today.
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I think that Evangelicals know very well they’re too Republican, because, like Peter in the court of Caiaphas, they have suddenly decided to masque their public identity.
For decades, Evangelicals demanded a place in the public square as “people of faith,” the heirs of our “Christian founding” as a nation, and as the Party of God. Within the last two years, however, Evangelicals have been identifying themselves politically as the Tea (Constitution) Party, still overwhelmingly religious, but re-branded.
Evangelicals are preparing to re-open the abortion wars, but they aren’t inviting their fellow citizens to assess them according to their religious principles, but according to their supposed fidelity to the Constitution.
A rich farmer has put up a sign next to a highway I drive that says, “Abortion Stops a Beating Heart.” Someone needs to paint the words “Fried Chicken” over abortion. But driving a little farther, on the left side of the highway, a much poorer farmer has put up a sign about the sorrow of domestic violence against women. Whoever put up this sign down the road from the former has offered a good response, I think.
We’re bound to hear nothing from Evangelicals until Nov. 2012 but abortion, muslim, birth certificate, abortion . . .
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Social Worker, I don’t think that’s a satisfactory answer. Right and wrong don’t change over time. But I do think some things are “good” and not “best.” For example, better in a tribal culture for a woman to have a husband than not (even if she’s one of three wives), though polygamy was never the “ideal.”
But to say we should kill our enemies under the Old Testament and should be kind to them now is situational ethics, not biblical ones. We need to look deeper than that.
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SM,
I expect we’ll also hear from Evangelicals about constitutional Vs unconstitutional law, lower taxes, smaller government, fiscal responsibility, states rights, traditional marriage protection, reigning in environmental extremeism, over-regulation by govt agences and other issues that concern the Christian worldview.
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Cheryl,
Yes, I’ve read Horton’s book, although it’s been a few years ago. David Van Drunen’s recent books address many of the same points.
Kyle,
You are right that the idea of sphere sovereignty originated with Kuyper. But Kuyper was neither a Biblical scholar nor a philosopher; he was a politician. Dooyeweerd and Van Til, who each attempted to develop Kuyper’s thought into a more coherent philosophical system, both acknowledged that there is little, if any, Scriptural support for the notion of sphere sovereignty.
RW Hawk,
I’m not sure that you have a clue as to what sphere sovereignty and/or worldviewism is. It sounds like you’re channeling the dime-store philosophical thinking that’s put out by folks associated with Chuck Colson or Brannon Howse. These folks seem to have co-opted a lot of Kuyperian language, but don’t seem to have any serious understanding of the underlying philosophical principles. Guys like Colson and Howse are selling nothing more than right-wing populist paranoia onto which they’ve affixed some Kuyperian terminology. Skillen’s Center for Public Justice is probably the only organization in the US that makes any serious attempt to remain true to the teachings of Kuyper and Dooyeweerd. If you want to learn more about Kuyper and Dooyeweerd, take a distance-education class from the Calvin College philosophy department. Or better yet…go the way of Nick Wolterstorff and Alvin Plantinga, and just ditch neo-Calvinism altogether.
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Scroop Moth in #48 said: Real children blow each others brains out every day, thanks to laws that y’all support, but liberals blame the laws, they don’t accuse people who oppose gun controll of being Satan.
Rondu in #49 said: My opinion is that one of the most, if not the most, important issues of our time is THE RIGHT TO LIFE!!
It’s an interesting juxtaposition. Because Scroop is correct that more people die due to proliferation of guns enabled by the relaxed controls that conservatives support than would if guns were less available. And many of them are innocents (accidents, victims of rage crimes, people caught in crossfire etc).
Now you might argue that those deaths are a necessary cost for preserving second amendment freedoms. Maybe. But it’s still the case that innocents die as a result of your having those freedoms .. and yet you also claim to support an absolute right to life.
How do you resolve this contradiction?
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JJF said to Joel Mark: So the point stands. There is no modern war that the Republican party has taken a stand against. (Excepting of course the silly word game where you say “we’re against the wars of our enemies”).
Joel Mark, are you going to respond or were you hoping nobody noticed? Those were silly arguments in #94 and #95 even by your standards.
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JJF & CONAN,
JJF distorted and misrepresented my point unintelligently. Wrong conclusion. Wrong wording. I spoke for myself at #94 & #95. It seems to me that it is easy for leftists to be against various wars that others have to fight. It is easy for leftists to (at dinner parties) declar opposition to various wars they don’t understand. The oppostition to war that I mentioned was opposition with real sacrifice attached to it.
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CTL (123): … innocents die as a result of your having [gun] freedoms .. and yet you also claim to support an absolute right to life.
How do you resolve this contradiction?
Frank: Not only is there no contradiction, the absolute right to life is the foundation upon which the right to self-defense rests.
Your position attributes little responsibility for gun related crimes to those who are responsible.
Instead, you seek to limit everybody’s ability to own the effective means of self-defense, based upon the culpable actions of a relative few.
My right to own a handgun for self-defense is no more the cause of gun crimes than my first amendment right to freedom of religion is the cause of crimes motivated by religious radicalism.
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123–?? The same objection can be raised against anyone who supports any right to life while also not wishing to abolish potentially dangerous activity. Do you oppose murder? But you don’t oppose airplane travel? How do you reconcile this “contradiction”?
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Evan,
Thank you for your take, mistaken as it may be. I’ll rely on the sphere sovereignty as taught in scripture, not by your Kant and Dooyeweerd.
After skimming Skillen’s center with a quick skimming I agree with their vision for the various spheres, but have reservation about the extra-biblical roles for civil government.
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Neil Evans
you said: Our stooping to throwing callous names at people is living both in and of the world.
This is true. But what examples do you have for callous names?
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RWHAWK,
Thanks for asking.
It isn’t so much the specific names themselves but the way in which they are thrown. It is appropriate to use the terms “liberal”, or “conservative” to accurately describe a person. What I am referring to is the way we often use those, and other, terms as pejoratives and derisions with a put-down as the goal.
Jesus called the Jewish religious leaders “white-washed seplecures”, and “blind leaders of the blind.” I think He used those arresting terms to try to get their attention to their actual condition. Jesus did not use those harsh words with a sneer of triumph that He had just put them their place. I know that I sometimes use labels for people in this callous and worldly way. That’s what I was trying to describe.
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Frank: Your response ignores accidents. You can’t have an accident with a gun if you don’t have a gun. How many accidental deaths caused by guns are too many for you?
I am not arguing against gun ownership, by the way. I support the right of law-abiding citizens to own guns. What I am doing is pointing out the contradiction of claiming to believe in the right to life while simultaneously believing that some number of accidental gun-related deaths is acceptable.
Macrutabaga: Firing a gun is not a “potentially” dangerous activity. Airplanes, cars and other things you could name that carry some risk all have benign purposes.
Guns exist for one purpose: To destroy. (Or at best, to threaten destruction.)
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Thanks BrotherDan. Peace indeed.
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Joel Mark at #125: The oppostition to war that I mentioned was opposition with real sacrifice attached to it.
Oh please. You can’t expect anyone to take this seriously.
JJF challenged you to name one war that conservatives have stood against since World War II. Clearly he meant America’s involvement in wars.
You replied with declarations of opposition to wars that our enemies wage against us.
You know full well that you were avoiding the question JJF was actually asking, and doing it in what you probably thought was very clever. (It wasn’t.)
But to close any loopholes, I’ll ask you a revised version of the question: Can you name one war since World War II which Republicans have taken a principled stand against America’s involvement in?
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“Married women will always be more conservative. But let that same gal get dumped and become a single mom with no man’s paycheck! They readily morph into uberLibs. Always have.”
———-
Perhaps churches won’t help the abandoned mom, and God will then utilize the food stamp program to help her, regardless of the rep/dem “smoke and mirrors” platforms.
And many church folk won’t like that. :-O
Double it, and take it out of the military budget or the checks of the “too big to fail” high rollers, until the multi-nationals insure work for her in the U.S.
Ouch. Who threw that tomato.
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I would hope that every war that America is involved in has been led by men who have good moral reasons for entering and maintaining that war. There are elements of every war that are morally questionable. I don’t think there are any Christians who would support every act of war in which our country has engaged.
Armed defense against violent aggressors is a responsibility God has given the state not the church. We rightly engage in such defense with the combined values of our diverse nation. That in itself is a contentious undertaking which this conversation illustrates. Each side wants to force the other to say: “You are right, I am wrong.”
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But will the individual, serious follower of the Lamb, who considers, and acts, in killing for military requirements, win the prize/crown?
We shall see.
Ponder carefully.
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:” (1Pe 2:21-23)
“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1Co 9:24-27)
:-O
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Very good question, MTS.
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MTS, yes valid questions. But equally valid:
Will a believer who refuses to defend others who are being violently attacked win the prize? Surely we do not believe that evil men should pillage unchecked. Civil authorities are “the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.” (Rom 13) And I hope we would not suggest that only non-believers are responsible for our defense.
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MTS 134 – Our evangelical church supports single mothers with a benevolence fund, and I suspect most others do, as well.
MTS 136 – the Bible offers different prescriptions for personal behavior and political behavior. National defense is the duty of the government. Only persons are asked to “turn the other cheek.”
Arcadia 110 – God has the distinct advantage of omniscience. He knew (and knows) who will respond to Him and who will not. No innocents were killed at His direction.
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Conan: You’re stretchin’ this one. Guns can do far more than just destroy. You mention threatening destruction. There ya go. You point out accidents to Frank. Pro-life gun-rights supporters don’t support either unwarranted destruction or injury by accident; therefore, there’s no contradiction. Sheesh, this is obvious.
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CONAN wrote; “JJF challenged you to name one war that conservatives have stood against since World War II. Clearly he meant America’s involvement in wars.”
And that is exactly how I took it and my response pertained directly to America’s involvement in wars.
As to your question, I already responded to it at #95 & #96. Please read my posts before responding to me in specific about them.
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Didn’t we enter the great wars, Korea and Viet Nam under democratic leadership?
Conan: Based on your logic, we’d never start a camp fire because someone would get hurt. You ignore the counterfactual, how many are saved becasue of camp fires and modern conveyances of energy. Are there any statistics that clearly demonstrate without qualification – to Republicans, Democrats, and Independents – that gun controls exclusively reduce violent death?
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Guns are used to either attack or to defend along with helping to provide food and for enjoyment.
The second amendment was written specifically for a citizenry to defend itself against an over zealous state. The national guard, our militia, is to provide civic strength for each governor to respond to state emergencies, provide a ready military to the President for national defense and to provide defense for individual states against an over zealous central government.
The greatest number of deaths in the last century were caused by governments exterminating their own citizens. The counts are greater than citizens murdering each other and all the wars in that century. The two common elements of all these governments is they were based on godless humanism and they assured the citizens were disarmed by banning private ownership of guns.
The argument about repubs and dems loving war is ridiculous as it has been both parties in bipartisan agreement to project wars. Within each party there were those that objected to engaging in war. The true argument should be whether or not the wars we engaged in were just wars or not:
Principles of the Just War
A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.
A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient–see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with “right” intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.
A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.
The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.
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#130 Neil Evans,
I agree. Using pejoratives is never appropriate. Using correct labels is appropriate when used for enligtenment without the intent to put down.
Thanks for your response
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Neil,
The unregenerate will always do what the unregenerate do.
Simply study the calling and lives of the apostles.
And study the life of the Lamb.
“As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.” (Ro 8:36-37)
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The point everyone seems to be missing here is how do the two main political parties fit into a full-orbed Christian worldview.
You ask the question: ” can you be an anti-abortion Democrat and still be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ?” What is this question really asking? Can you be spiritually regenerate, but have inconsistencies in your worldview? Well, of course. But you are asking the wrong question.
A much better question is: “Can you be a democrat and still be consistent in your Christian worldview?” The answer is a resounding “No.” Big government, social engineering, Robinhood economics, realiance upon government to meet all your needs – all of these concepts are anti-thetical to the Christian worldview.
Abortion is not the only litmus test for a Christian. Where he stands on the role of government is every bit as reflective of his worldview and where he stands on abortion.
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America, to be healthy, needs Evangelicals far more than it needs Republicans. Nevertheless, America does still need more Republicans.
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#146 BCM,
take a look at #78 and #197
The Democrats are fully engrossed in Cultural Marxism more commonly known as Political Correctness. There is no way a true Christian can knowingly vote Democrat. Unfortunately, many who claim they are Christian are heavily syncretized into Marxism and don’t even know it. They know not Christ. As you state, they lack a Christian worldview due to biblical ignorance and following false teachers such as Obama advisor Jim Wallis and mentor Jeremiah Wright.
Cultural Marxism is the religion taught in our government schools and broadcast in or lame stream media.
Joel…bingo
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BCM,
that should be 107, not 197.
PS,
besides the lead for the essays about PC on #107, here is a good video on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkvnDeXiAm4 continue with Part 2.
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Hawk,
What do you mean by Marxism? You seem to toss out a lot of sweeping terms, but never can seem to substantiate your points.
If you think that any substantial portion of the American public is secretly Marxist, then I’d have to wonder whether you seriously interact much with people. Or do you just live in the evangelical bubble, garnering your knowledge of the outside world from the evangelical propaganda mill.
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Evan,
I suppose there are two possibilities here. Either I am as you accuse or you are ignorant of the various forms of the Marxist worldview.
Try the link I left on #107 for substantiation; read Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals (Obama’s playbook) and study Ron Rhodes Liberation Theology , black liberation theology and feminist theology essays for additional substantiation.
These sources will get you to a better understanding of Marxism and help you to discern truth.
As Marvin Olasky has pointed out: “What Obama and Beck have in common, though, is a tendency toward religious syncretism, uniting beliefs that are logically and theologically separate. Obama is a Marxist-Christian syncretist, blending elements of the incompatible: That can work in an election campaign when a lapdog press doesn’t dig deep, but the little sister in the combination usually ends up frustrated, as many evangelicals who backed Obama in 2008 now are.”
Marxism and true Christianity are opposite and incompatible. The Democrats have chosen Marxism.
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