Psychology’s liberal bias
At the most recent conference of the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the most talked-about speech was one that essentially accused the attendees of bias.
Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist from the University of Virginia, started his presentation by polling the audience of approximately 1,000 psychologists. When he asked how many considered themselves to be politically liberal, about 80 percent of the hands went up. Centrists and libertarians? Dr. Haidt estimated that fewer than three-dozen hands were raised. When he asked how many were conservatives, precisely three hands went up.
As The New York Times reported, Haidt called that “a statistically impossible lack of diversity,” citing polls showing that 40 percent of Americans identify themselves as conservative and 20 percent as liberal.
He went on to call social psychologists a “tribal-moral community” whose “sacred values” impede unbiased research. “If a group circles around sacred values, they will evolve into a tribal-moral community. They’ll embrace science whenever it supports their sacred values, but they’ll ditch it or distort it as soon as it threatens a sacred value.”
Haidt cited the reaction to Daniel Patrick Moynihan’s warning in 1965 about rising unmarried pregnancy rates among blacks: “Moynihan was shunned by many of his colleagues at Harvard as racist. Open-minded inquiry into the problems of the black family was shut down for decades, precisely the decades in which it was most urgently needed.”
In his speech (see below), Haidt suggested that his colleagues read conservative publications and books. He even went so far as to recommend a kind of affirmative action for conservatives, calling on the organization to strive for 10 percent of its members to be conservatives by 2020.
Haidt deserves credit for the courage it took to raise the issue of liberal bias in his field and address it head on with his colleagues.
I wonder how many hands would have gone up if Haidt had asked how many in the audience were believing Christians.

















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back to top92 Comments to “Psychology’s liberal bias”
“Haidt suggested that his colleagues read conservative publications and books.”
I for one have never understood the determined opposition to doing just that. Years ago in my 20s I first began reading Bill Buckley’s NATIONAL REVIEW mainly because as a liberal/progressive I felt it incumbent to read “the other side’s” play book or battle plan. All truth is God’s truth and you find that truth in the most unlikely places even if those who point to it do so unknowingly.
I suspect the Olasky-esque biblical conservatives read much more mags and books from the other side than liberal secularists read from conservatives. In fact, in reading blogs by Richard Land or Albert Mohler I’m often surprised to see what they’re looking at to gain insight into American culture and entertainment.
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The newspaper HUMANEVENTS dot com is notable for often printing vitriolic letters from non-conservatives. [These are often wingnut lefties of the highest magnitude]. So it is encouraging to know that such a publication has readership outside their own camp.
The “minority psychologists” need to band together and perhaps form their own Dartmouth Review -type unofficial professional journals.
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I am impressed by this guy. This should be a chief principle in all acadamia, whether liberal or conservative bent, to strive to be unbiased. More can be done when more ideas from more viewpoints are allowed to be debated and studied.
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“I wonder how many hands would have gone up if Haidt had asked how many in the audience were believing Christians.”
You do? You wonder what?
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Rom116, they already think they have that principle. They just won’t enforce it. They would be shocked if you told them they are biased.
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I wonder why his presentation appears to have been deleted from the Society’s website.
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I wonder. Does psychiatry have a liberal bias also?
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NJL you took the question right out of my mouth.
Sawgunner, I think even without the outside reading Churchell’s maxim remains true: “If you are not liberal when you are young you have no heart; if you are not conservative when you are old you have no head.”
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Adios, at least it wasn’t more oatmeal!
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Perhaps the social psychologists should listen too him, even if those same conservatives “should” balk at the idea of affirmative action! I see moral communities embracing science when it supports their sacred cows all the time. Suggest that there isn’t much difference between a man and a woman’s brain, and you will be bounced out of talks with some conservative Christians citing the brain sex research. But despite that research making no sense outside of the evolutionary imperatives paradigm it originates in, those same people insist that evolution is a lie. Or evolution is always wrong, until it’s true enough to disprove a biological basis for homosexuality. So he’s definitely describing a real phenomena. WORLD should consider bringing on some liberal writers.
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Redwal,
But despite that research making no sense outside of the evolutionary imperatives paradigm it originates in….
How’s that?
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Redwal (#10),
You said “WORLD should consider bringing on some liberal writers.”
You would love that, wouldn’t you.
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It would certainly increase World’s ability to evangelize. How many people are turned away from Jesus by the unrelenting conservativeness of the most vocal Christians’ politics?
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One of the differences between WORLD and the Psychological Society is that WORLD does not claim to be unbiased. It claims to see the world more accurately but certainly admits to having a Biblical bias.
It looks as if the talk was seeking to challenge the Society to recognize the blindness they have toward their bias.
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From the website of the Society:
“SPSP is committed to increasing diversity within the field and welcomes members of underrepresented groups as well as those who bring diverse life experience and perspectives to the science of personality and social psychology. Such diversity enriches research, teaching, and advising, and better prepares the field for a world in which globalization, multiculturalism, and diversity play a central role in human behavior.”
WORLD’s claim is simply “Today’s News|Christian Views”.
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This is why they push the issue that the GLBT Community are normal life stlyes.
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WORLD should consider bringing on some liberal writers–
If they do not believe God’s Word is true, why would any Christian Company permitted then access to promote their lies?
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It would certainly increase World’s ability to evangelize — How would that work since most of the liberal writers support sexual sins?
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The only reason psychology as profession appears to be dominated by liberals is that conservatives are not choosing to become psychologists. Nothing is preventing them from doing so.
Rather than yet more clucking about “liberal bias” to feed your persecution complex, maybe you should consider how to encourage more young conservatives take an interest in behavioral science as a career path.
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How many people are turned away from Jesus by the unrelenting conservativeness of the most vocal Christians’ politics?
–
They are turn away because they do not want to repent of their sins and surrender their lives to Christ and to try an follow God’s Words. It has nothing to do with conservativeness.
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The modern template for whatever might increase our ability to evangelize is (unfortunately) usually a template of the world’s cultural values. I don’t buy it and I have been involved in a lot of effective evangelism. The best evangelism is that which sticks to the gospel truth and offers, in love, a biblically-based solution to the real problem of real sin.
REWAL at #13 asks; “How many people are turned away from Jesus by the unrelenting conservativeness of the most vocal Christians’ politics?”
Probably a lot less than the number of people who are turned away by the gospel truth about the reality of sin. EVEN Jesus’ preaching turned a lot of people away, and made some want him dead. Jesus himself identified four types of listeners to his word, three of which ultimately turned away from it and from him.
Hard path.
Thorny soil.
Racky siol.
Fruitful soil.
Jesus knew he attracted more opposition than frutful following. Jesus knew the path was wide that leads to destruction.
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I appreciated Haidt’s talk. I disagreed with some specific points that I thought were blind spots he still had, but that did not detract from the value of his message. I don’t deny that I have blind spots too, but I just can’t see them (smile).
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This WORLD blog is letting liberals express themselves, is it not?
Had Jonathan Haidt done a web search on Christian Psychology he would have had numerous hits.
I have gone to two Christian Psychologist that were counselors during my life. One in 1978 that did much good, the other in 2010 that did much harm to my family. The latter did not follow the Bible and was very liberal ideologically. How can you know you are choosing a true Christian counselor?
I wonder how much of “Liberal Psychology” has worked its way into the Church of today. Anybody got any data on this?
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Behavioral Science as a career path generally seeks to press one into the mold of a humanistic worldview. It is largely intolerant of Biblical worldviews. So, there are things that tend toward preventing Bible believing Christians from becoming psychologists in league with the Society of Personal and Social Psychologists.
My objection is not that this intolerance exists but that those who are so intolerant claim to be the model of tolerance and objectivity.
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Unfortunately, Segelstein doesn’t tell us whether circling around sacred values and becoming a tribal-moral community is a bad thing, in and of itself, or simply a “so’s yo ol’ man” critique that makes another tribal-moral community feel better about itself.
Conservatives should publish reviewed monographs besides essays on WorldMagBlog.
Heidt’s intellectual flaw is equating ideological consensus with tribalism. Psychologists (economists, mathematicians) are not an ethnic group, they are members of many ethnic groups. Also, liberals are more ethnically diverse than conservatives.
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Marcia Segelstein, good job. Thank you for finding and posting this. This is one of the many things that makes this blog worthwhile.
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#25 – “Liberals are more ethnically diverse than conservatives.”
Liberals think that ethnicity matters more than principles and convictions. That’s a huge intellectual flaw.
And I disagree with the claim that liberals are more ethnically diverse anyhow. It depends on where, when and how you are looking at the big picture.
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Joel Mark #26, I wholeheartedly agree!
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Neil Evans: Behavioral Science as a career path generally seeks to press one into the mold of a humanistic worldview. It is largely intolerant of Biblical worldviews. So, there are things that tend toward preventing Bible believing Christians from becoming psychologists
Well then it’s not a problem, is it? Just there aren’t likely many vegetarian steakhouse chefs, so there are not many Biblical psychologists.
(Although it’s certainly possible to be conservative without being a conservative Christian, so your response may not be entirely on point.)
Either way, it’s a self-selected bias. Nobody’s telling conservatives not to be psychologists, so the “intolerance” to which you refer doesn’t actually exist.
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It claims to have a Biblical bias, but in fact it has a politically conservative, evangelical bias. I think it unfortunate and harmful that WORLD conflates the two.
I too would like to see WORLD hire some progressive Christian voices. Even if the staff and all of the readers disagree, it is important to be exposed to the Biblically informed politics of someone on the other side of the aisle.
In fact, Haidt’s criticism of psychology applies just as well to WORLD. It is a “tribal-moral community” whose “sacred values” impede honest analysis. These “sacred values” extend beyond the truly sacred — the Scriptures — and add a whole host of conservative political ideas (some of which I would argue is at odds with Scripture). The Gospel of St. Reagan, so to speak.
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There is a dynamic field of study in Biblical behavioral science. However, the majority of behavioral science organizations oppose the validity of the Biblical perspective. All the while they claim to be the model of tolerance and objectivity. All I am saying is that they are blind to their own intolerance.
It is not that Biblical Psychologists want to be included in the brotherhood of humanistic organizations any more than I want to join my local Democratic party simply to improve it’s diversity.
My point is simply that claiming to be diverse does not make it so, and those who make the claims are often the most subjective and intolerant in their associations.
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As someone who still closely associates humanism to Thomas More, I just can’t believe that humanism and Christianity are antithetical.
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It took psychologists over 30 years to admit that men and women are different. It took anthropologists over a century to redefine race to mean ethnicity, rather than a kind of human species.
In the liberal world science and everything else takes a back seat to politics.
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JJF #30, you have some validity. However, I think that the conflation would be compounded by equating progressive Biblical views with evangelical Biblical views. I’m not sure how many fronts one publication could engage effectively.
I think that any political philosophy that views politics above the Good News of Jesus Christ as a greater hope for our world is in great error.
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Redwal – When you support sexual sin and believe you can ref to Jesus as Mother, or to say God’s Word in not true and there are other was to heaven as many liberal writers who call themselves christian do. They have a major problem with God and His Word.
The reason all of those belief are not of God and are based on false teaching.
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Conan, I believe the bias against conservatives is real. As a summa cum laude psychology major with counseling master’s from a major university, I encountered steady but subtle bias even though I never stated conservative views. Eventually, a lesbian friend who went through the same two programs told me that most of the professors were homosexual and would not mentor me for a doctorate because I was married. Later, at a national conference, I attended a program focused on counseling LGBT’s and was shunned because I was not one of them. Although I felt totally accepted by other professionals once I established my career, I believe it was because I kept my conservative opinions to myself. It was not until I left that field and moved to another state that I accepted Christ. I hope I would speak boldly of my faith if I returned to that field.
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JOEL and NEIL circle, appreciatively.
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I think that Heidt himself would agree that liberals are more ethnically diverse than conservatives because, according to his theory, conservatives express significantly more group loyalty, traditional respect, and aversion to foreign “impurity.”
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. . broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction . .
WARNING: Pay no attention to the width of your lane; the broad way may be composed of many narrow lanes.
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I’m always amazed by the proclivity of leftists to impute their motives to conservatives.
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33. I agree. They are still not allowed to acknowledge that there is a IQ difference between races. I personally do not believe that African American are less intelligent, but why do they tend to score lower on IQ tests. We may never know because we have to pretend that doesn’t happen.
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Scroop, I have met many missionaries who have dedicated their lives and fortunes to bringing “foreigners” into the Kingdom. All of the conservative Christians I know give of their time, talents and finances to assist the poor and hungry of other nations. Your comments have no basis in fact.
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MAR-
You attribute a word in quotes to me inaccurately. Haidt says “foreign” not “foreigner.” (Please note, the theory I’m relating is his.) There’s a difference in signification. Haidt’s theory addresses a characteristic aversion to the strange and unfamiliar, to “impurity.” The meaning is deeper than xenophobia.
I know about Evangelical missionaries. For instance, they train themselves to purge their imperialistic notions and involuntary cultural aversions.
You are right to remind us that, since time immemorial, many Christians have been adventurous. ” Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages . . . to seken straunge strondes, To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes.” On the other hand, sleeping under a net in a hammock in a grass hut may not have been all that aversive, compared with sleeping in a rats nest in the Bronx.
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I think it would be more effective engagement to provide readers with different viewpoints that share a Biblical foundation. It would encourage readers to think critically, to say, “I agree with this author’s argument but not with this one’s and here’s why.” It would broaden their view of the Christian faith beyond the walls of the GOP tent. It would help toward fostering a more civil political dialog.
Providing an echo chamber for the “sacred values” of one’s “tribal-moral community” is far less effective engagement.
Well… I suppose it depends on what we mean by “effective.” Effective at what? Locking voters into support of one party? Then by all means an echo chamber is more effective. Creating an informed readership (in two senses: informed about current events and informed by the Bible)? Then I’d think some interplay between competing ideas would be more effective.
But I do WORLD more discredit than I should. I don’t believe their raison d’etre is to “lock voters into support of one party.” Electing Republicans is not itself the end, but WORLD often sees that as the best means to their end (which I understand to be the creation of a nation guided by principles they believe are Biblical, and in that category they include free market economics and small government and a hard line against illegal immigration and tough-talking foreign relations and a readiness to make war, etc.).
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Scroop, you have a romantic view of missions work. One close friend did sleep in a hammock in the jungles of South America, and he was harrassed and cursed by a witch doctor throughout the night. Another friend is a Jewish missionary in New York City, and he is spit upon for offering to pray for people. A friend in India has been beaten and robbed for showing a film about Jesus. God is creating a Kingdom of believers from every tribe and ethnic group. Our histories and cultures might seem foreign to each other, but our hearts will be united in worship.
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MAR – from what you write, my stories trump yours, but I don’t feel playing, so go ahead and take the hand – along with your presumptions about me.
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“WARNING: Pay no attention to the width of your lane; the broad way may be composed of many narrow lanes.”
Falsehood abounds, but truth exists absolutely.
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MAR – my experience as well!
While it is probably ridiculed by fools, the old familiar song “Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world, red, and yellow, black and white, all are precious in His sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world”, represents the Biblical heart of Jesus and His followers. It is those who merely claim the title Christian but do not bow to it who misrepresent God’s focus on people’s heart rather than their ethnicity.
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Glad you understood, Neil.
Scroop, I am not trying to one-up anyone with my stories; I am trying to illustrate my point in order to further understanding. Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but not because I presumed anything. I would be interested in hearing any stories you wwant to share.
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Couple observations:
1. This was covered by the New York Times.
2. The Times article has this to say about the largely liberal audience:
I wonder why his presentation appears to have been deleted from the Society’s website.
It wasn’t deleted. The conference website doesn’t link to recordings of the sessions. Haidt’s presentation is listed here as part of the opening session.
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While Haidt’s observations may be accurate, it doesn’t say much about why this occurs.
A number of years ago Mark Noll noted that a disproportionate number of conservative evangelicals will choose careers in engineering over careers in physics or chemistry. Does this imply that our nation’s chemistry department’s are hostile to conservative evangelicals? Noll said no. Rather, Noll noted that conservative evangelicals will generally gravitate towards careers where one’s work involves the structured application of black-and-white rules. Thus, it’s not that chemists shun conservatives while chemical engineers welcome them; it’s that conservative evangelicals–many of whom have grown up in more structured, rule-driven environments–are simply more comfortable with the applied sciences.
Of course, over time, these tendencies reinforce themselves to create the kind of intellectual rigidity that Haidt observes. Of course, as JJF notes, there’s just as much rigidity of thought among conservative evangelicals. It would probably do most evangelicals well to buy an subscription to The New Republic and The Atlantic, so that they could gain a better understanding of the thinking that drives center-left thought.
I’m a centrist who leans left on social issues and right on economic issues. Reading WorldMag gives me a better appreciation of how folks on the hard-right see the world. I’d say that folks here have probably helped me get a better sense of the evil of abortion, even if may still disagree on what’s the best means for tackling the problem. If I’d only read center-left publications, I’d still be solidly pro-choice.
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All one has to do to gain an understanding of of the thinking that drives the left is to turn on the TV or go to the Movies. In my experience the left is more provincial than the right. Alabama is way more exposed to New York than New York is to Alabama.
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I love me some The Atlantic. Sullivan, Friedersdorf and McArdle in particular. Not sure if they could be accurately described as “center-left” though; Friedersdorf has described his 2012 vote as being “the Republicans Party’s to lose.”
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You think people who read WORLD are hard-right? I’m not hard right.
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Define “hard right” then. What are some “hard right” view points with which you disagree, or politicians supported by the “hard right” that would not have your support.
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I wish that World Magazine and the people who subscribe to it were hard-right. BuddyGlass, what gave you the idea that they are?
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Pretty much every opinion expressed here?
Out of curiosity, what is an opinion expressed here by you, Joel Mark, NJLawyer, Make it Man, Macrutatabaga, Xion, Pastor Roy, Cal Thomas, D.C. Innes, or Marcia Segelstein that, in your mind, precludes describing that person as “hard right”?
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I assume psychology includes therapy. It may have a “liberal bias”, but I sure know lots of conservatives and evangelicals that go to/have gone to therapy (and are on medication).
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The “Comments” by NY Times readers below the article were interesting. The highest rated ones basically said that conservatives don’t have a place in the social sciences because they are too dumb and they don’t care about people. No stereotyping going on there!
The “swipe” at Evangelical Christians and Intelligent Design was also interesting. Apparently it’s a “truism” in the Social Sciences that the poor, ignorant, dwindling Evangelicals are so isolated that they cling to an outmoded belief. The 2010 Gallup Poll on the subject found that 78% of Americans believe in Intelligent Design (either Creationism or Guided Evolution), and only 16% believe in purely naturalistic evolution. So, which group is isolated in their “tribal-moral community”?
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I’ve always thought that when I needed something serviced it was a real advantage to go to someone who really understood how the designer/manufacturer put it together, and why. I would be really reluctant to go to an auto mechanic who believed that my car didn’t have a maker and never read the owners manual.
The worst thing about psychology is not it’s obvious liberal bias, but it’s Biblical blindness. (Praise God for those who do have a Biblical base!)
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RONDU wrote; “I’m always amazed by the proclivity of leftists to impute their motives to conservatives.”
I passed amazement a long time ago. Now I am shocked whenever they DON’T exercise this sort of duplicity in debate. The funny thing is how severely judgmental they are against their presumed motives which they impune to us and how unaware they are that the presumption come from them in the first place.
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“Hard right” is whatever a leftist says it is and it applies to whomever a leftist says it does. They are in charge of branding.
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Social Psych is one of many fields that are biased against conservatives, intelligent design, and Christianity. My biology dept and Women’s Studies dept were also lopsided. They really have no clue.
Check out the top article on the site below – about how many bytes of information are in the human brain. Of course, you have to be willing to use them.
http://creationsafaris.com/crev201102.htm
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MAR #63 – Thanks for the great link!
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#51 Evan
I am studying materials engineering and there is no “structured application of black-and-white rules” because science, theory or applied, is that simple. Nature has a tendency to break all rules used to describe it, at least concerning the micro and nano scales.
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Facts are notorious for their liberal bias.
We all live in “tribal” groups — occupation, professions, social economic status, ethnicity, etc — all of which can confer a form of bias. And the evangelical right wing is as tribal as the next group.
Much of what is consider the result of bias is in fact a form of self-selection. People tend to enter occupations and fields of study which are compatible and comfortable with their belief systems and lifestyles.
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Sounds very reasonable, HRW, but many people who have stepped out of their comfort zones to challenge themselves, to follow an unlikely dream (their father’s, perhaps), or to answer a calling from their Father.
Once they become committed to a group, they might conform to a certain extent, e.g. common vocabulary, and will naturally show bias towards their choices.
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ooops – ignore the “who” in the first line
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TWH:
What do you mean by “guided evolution”? That doesn’t sound like intelligent design to me. In my experience, “intelligent design” is nothing more than a new label that young-earth Creationists have claimed for themselves.
During the Dover trial, the proponents of intelligent design were placed on the stand and subjected to vigorous cross-examination. Under the light of cross-examination, their sham was revealed. This led distinguished jurist John Jones to find as a fact that “[t]he overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.”
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Evan, I encourage you to check out the site cited at #63.
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#55,57 Buddy Glass “Define “hard right” then. What are some “hard right” view points with which you disagree, or politicians supported by the “hard right” that would not have your support.”
You are asking two questions, so I’ll take two posts to answer. In this post I’ll define left and right. In the next post I’ll show things about the hard right and hard left which are not good and which no one here would agree with.
The terms left and right are a bit fluid and have changed meaning throughout history. The interesting thing is that the change is always in one direction. As Engels observed, history is a long slow march to the left. We all know the standard definitions. But because the terms left and right are ever changing, I prefer to go deeper and to get at the essence of the differences between the left and right which do not change.
First some history …
Historically, the classical left used to be on the side of individual liberty of man and against tyranny whether from church or state or feudal lords and robber barons. Today the modern right holds the individual liberty position of the former “classical left” and the modern left has continued to march ever more leftward.
How do we know this? Well, take a position that hasn’t moved and see how the world has changed with respect to it. The Anabaptists used to be the extreme left wing of society, advocating a complete political separation of church and state. Baptists later coined the phrase to Thomas Jefferson. Modern Baptists still cite this in an acrostic using the letters BAPTIST to define their position.
Yet in the modern world, Baptists are now considered extremely conservative and the extreme right wing. Yet their position really hasn’t changed much in many centuries. So obviously it is the world around them which has changed. In this sense no one in the world today is hard right anymore, except maybe a few remaining robber barons if you happen to find one. Everyone now is to the left.
Now on to political philosophy …
I believe the fundamental difference between the left and right has to do with our view of Truth. To the right, truth is objective reality. To the left, truth is relative and can be molded into whatever you like. To the right, truth is what is. To the left, truth is a narrative about what can be. This is why the left is always trying to control the narrative and will never admit anything contrary to the narrative. To the right good and evil exist as black and white. To the left, good is agreeing with the leftist narrative and evil is opposing it.
A big difference between left and right has to do with how we define equity and fairness. To the right fairness is treating everyone the same, i.e. everyone playing by the same rules. The outcome will be different depending on one’s ability or other factors.
To the left, fairness means an equal outcome for all. If one person is more successful than another, then that is inherently unfair. And so the left will doctor the rules to produce an “equitable outcome”. The left would define fairness as, “From each according to his ability to each according to his need”. The right would call that inherently unfair.
Politically, the left has always wanted to create a perfect society, heaven on earth or Utopia. Leftist ideals tend to be existential, materialistic, humanistic, about the here and now, the stuff of this life. Progressives can be religious, but they tend to concern themselves with this world, with society as a whole and so their gospel becomes social.
The right politically is more about accepting Truth as it is. They accept that life is fundamentally unfair. There is nothing wrong with one person achieving success or failure. And the right tends to want to preserve things as they are, accepting one’s lot in life. The left is never satisfied with the cards one is dealt and will always ask for new hand.
Having tasted power, the modern left no longer waits for individuals for find their own happiness, they now have the power to impose their Utopian ideals on mankind through the strong arm of government. The remaking of society where Utopia is imposed through the power of central planning is where the left is today. In the end this is just a new kind of tyranny by omnipotent moral busybodies who invariably make things worse.
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#55,57 What about the hard right would people here disagree with?
As I said above, the right takes truth as it is and accepts things as they are. The downside of the hard right is that they can be cold and calculating about truth. They’ll tell it like it is, no mercy, no wavering. For example, in a competition the right would say the best should always win without exception. The left wants everyone to have a chance to win, so they’ll bend the rules or judge based on perceived need rather than merit.
Same goes for law. The right will judge according to the law without mercy. The leftist judges on the Supreme Court have said that they would use empathy to decide the outcome.
The hard right is not empathetic. Advice usually takes the form of telling someone to quit whining. Whining is the language of the left. They will empathize with anyone, even to their own detriment.
Hard conservatives want to conserve the status quo and tradition, even if it is bad. The left wants to change things even if they are good. The right tends to side with the powers that be, even if they are bad. The left will throw out all tradition even if it is good.
No one here is hard right, since no one here would insist on keeping the status quo even if it is bad. No one here is hard right in terms of executing justice without considering mercy.
No one here is hard right believing that truth shouldn’t be seasoned with grace. For example, no one here wakes up every day and calls their spouses fat and ungrateful, even if they are.
The modern right isn’t hard right. The Tea Party movement isn’t hard right. These folks are Constitutionalists in the vein of Jefferson and Madison in the great tradition of American liberalism.
One might say God is hard right in that his character demands pure Truth and unrelenting justice. Others might say God is to the left when he shows mercy and dies in the place of those whom he judges.
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Evan #69 – Here is a summary of the Gallup Poll, and URL.
Four in 10 Americans, slightly fewer today than in years past, believe God created humans in their present form about 10,000 years ago. Thirty-eight percent believe God guided a process by which humans developed over millions of years from less advanced life forms, while 16%, up slightly from years past, believe humans developed over millions of years, without God’s involvement.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx
I don’t know why “Guided Evolution” wouldn’t be considered “Intelligent Design”, but apparently there is controversy on that point. Even if “Intelligent Design” only includes “Creationism”, this means 16% of the population is telling 40% that they are in a small, isolated, tribal-moral community. Pretty funny.
Also funny is your designation of John Jones as a “distinguished jurist”. If he had decided FOR Intelligent Design, would you still consider him such? I’m thinking, no.
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To call ID a “sham” makes no sense for those claiming macroevolution as a scientific theory, as neither position is physically capable of having empirical backing, empiricism being what modern science was founded upon.
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No one here is hard right in terms of executing justice without considering mercy.
Slow down, XION.
During Sotomayor confirmation, Evangelicals expressed outrage that Obama wanted a justice who had a capacity for empathy.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Now, you assert that Evangelicals don’t want judges to be unmerciful.
Let me spell out the contradiction for you, in case you haven’t realized it already. Empathy is a facility of cognition and feeling that teaches someone what it’s like to walk in another’s shoes. As a servant of realism, empathy improves the information that forms a decision, and is entirely within the job description of a fair- minded judge. Empathy isn’t bias — it’s a corrective.
As you recognize, Mercy involves something different. Mercy affects the results. Mercy: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm. Mercy takes empathy one step further and reduces the sentence.
Halleluja, I’m all in favor of a merciful court system. Furthermore, if we ever get a merciful court system, it will come from Republicans, not Democrats. Please just don’t tell me that Evangelicals didn’t take a “hard right” stance regarding empathy.
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Xion:
You wax philosophical in #72, but I notice that you don’t give a single current issue in politics where you or the readership of WORLD object to a certain position as “too far to the right.”
You seem to be employing a pet definition of “hard right” — a philosophical extreme that no one really holds. In terms of actual issues — from abortion to homosexuality to war to the economy — WORLD and its readership are at the extreme edge of right-wing viewpoints. In other words, there is no significant voice in American politics that is more conservative on abortion (which the fiscally conservative wing of the Republican party has largely abandoned), on homosexuality (you are the people upset that the Log Cabin Republicans were invited to CPAC), on the role of government (you want to end about half the Federal Departments), on war and torture (yes and yes please), etc.
Honestly, I don’t think the labels people want to apply or not apply matter so much, I just think you are deceiving yourself about your position in contemporary American politics. You’ve invented an extreme to place to your right because there are no actual groups or people of any significance that you could situate there.
Look over your right shoulder, man. There’s nobody there.
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#75 That’s a thoughtful response Scroop. Good points. Thanks.
I believe law should be objective. Mercy is objective. No one disputes the nature of the crime, but the judge decides that mercy in a particular case will work to the good.
The problem with empathy is that it is subjective, based purely on the feelings of the judges regardless of the matter at hand. The judge takes into account upbringing, skin color, sugar content of Twinkies or any other nefarious heart tugging matter. If justice is to be fair, then it must be blind.
I read a number of Kagan’s papers and she felt that the Constitution stood in the way of doing really good things. So she came up with all sorts of trickery to get around the law in order to implement her agenda of goodness which she felt in her own heart.
This line of thinking sets up judges as lords of their own little fiefdoms who can basically rule anything they want regardless of the law. Why even have laws if the judge can make stuff up as she goes along?
On the other hand, I am not speaking against empathy for people as a general rule. Liberals have good hearts. They should just never ever be in charge of anything.
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#76 JJF “You seem to be employing a pet definition of “hard right” — a philosophical extreme that no one really holds. In terms of actual issues — from abortion to homosexuality to war to the economy — WORLD and its readership are at the extreme edge of right-wing viewpoints.”
According to whom? What makes your pet definitions more authoritative than mine? By the way, I’m not completely firm on my definitions. They are still a work in progress. I appreciate your help in converging on more precise definitions.
If by your definition anyone who believes in the Bible is a right wing extremist, then we’re guilty as charged. But you’d be better served by considering history and broadening your mind.
Why are people who oppose the dismemberment of children extremists? Aren’t the people who agree with slowly pulling kids apart a bit extreme?
I for one have no problem with civil unions, since government can authorize any ridiculous contract the people want. My only objection is to not call it marriage, since it isn’t by any definition in the history of civilization.
I am not upset about Log Cabin Republicans. If we are all sinners then I’m not going to pretend that I am a better sinner than others. My only objection is on a basis of theology and natural philosophy. Homosexuality is a behavior, like nose picking. Why should nose pickers get special rights?
Once you accept marriage to mean anything then why do you discriminate against polygamists or people who want to marry their trucks? It is humorous to see homosexuals being so self-righteous that their form of marriage is so much more legitimate than these.
“You’ve invented an extreme to place to your right because there are no actual groups or people of any significance that you could situate there. Look over your right shoulder, man. There’s nobody there.
I provided a historical context and backed up my position with experimental proof. Maybe it’s you who’ve invented the right wing extremist boogeyman so that you can feel better about yourself?
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According to the actual state of American politics.
You have provided a theoretical definition of “right” and “left” pitting two principles against each other — objectivism vs relativism, law vs mercy, conserve vs change — and use those principles to insist that WORLD and its readers aren’t “hard right” since that (by your definition) would require them to hold positions that no one really holds. (e.g., nothing should ever change and no mercy should ever be granted).
But in the actual state of American politics, there are no significant groups to the right of WORLD and its readership. (If there are, I’m not aware of them. Name some for me.) There are no current issues on which the opinion of WORLD and its readership is not the most conservative opinion in the mainstream, and sometimes outside the right boundary of the mainstream (e.g., in the belief of some that homosexual behavior should be outlawed or that numerous Federal Departments should be shut down or that all abortion should be illegal — these are opinions so far right that they are not generally discussed as part of the current political landscape).
By “extreme right edge,” by the way, I only meant “at the right tip of the right wing,” not that you were an extremist (with all that implies). I am certainly not saying that believing in the Bible or standing against abortion makes you an extremist. (By the way, I believe in the Bible, and I am against abortion.)
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What’s your point? That “hard right” positions are evil, reactionary and colloquial? The right is defined by its opposition to the “left”, and vice-versa. Neither is more monolithic. Factions exist in both categories. Conservatives, ala WSJ, advocate for immigration reform that includes a pathway to citizenship while the western contingent is frightened by cartel violence. There will always be the counter-challenges of “right” and “left”: thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Can either survive without the other?
We should substitute efforts to demonize factions with an extended evaluation of unintended consequences, both historically and potentially. Every legislative act unleashes the unanticipated.
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#75 “During Sotomayor confirmation, Evangelicals expressed outrage that Obama wanted a justice who had a capacity for empathy. ”
Scroop,
No one wants a robot on the bench, but I don’t think empathy is a qualification to be sought out for the SCOTUS. The quality of being entreatable or empathetic or even merciful are not bad things in a judge as long as there is good judgment overall and it’s not attached to an agenda [a tall order, but theoretically possible]. But I do question how desirable an abundance of those qualities are for members of the SCOTUS in particular.
Mercy is an exception to the rule (law). The SCOTUS’ job is primarily to judge whether something is constitutional or not, and their rulings have a way of becoming the new law of the land, with far reaching consequences. So their ‘mercy’ to one plaintiff or defendant could easily become injustice to hundreds…even millions.
It’s really not their job to make laws, and certainly not to make laws based on, or strongly influenced by, the ‘empathy’ of 5 people. And then there is always the question of ‘empathetic to WHAT?’. So, empathy, as a defining characteristic, might be misplaced there, and it’s not a quality I would seek out, or a quality I would think particularly recommends a person to the SCOTUS. Just a thought.
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Only that you ought to be realistic about your position in the political landscape.
Why do I care? Mostly because it became an issue on this thread (”We’re not hard right!”). Probably also because I catch just a whiff in those protestations of the all too common fallacy that moderate positions are more reasonable and therefore more correct because they’re not the extreme. So we take pains to paint ourselves as “not as far to the right as I could be” as a way of falsely legitimizing our opinions — “falsely” both because it does not actually legitimize them, and (in this case) because you actually do occupy the extreme.
But as you point out, Wagus, this does not mean you are incorrect just because you are “hard right” instead of a more “reasonable” center right. As you say quite convincingly:
No disagreement here.
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Debra: Great point. Empathy exercised on behalf of the victim or perpetrator, plaintiff or defendant. Rule of Law provides a consistent environment for planning. The fuzzy legislative entailments of health and environmental regulation have frozen investment funds.
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#79 Good points JJF. You are correct that come of us are very conservative. I was merely pointing out that conservative today is fully in the camp of classical liberal. In Jesus’ day, I would say the hard right would have been the Pharisees. We’ve had a few here in the past, but they’re gone now I think.
I consider myself to the right of everyone in the world in terms of strict biblical literalism. I know of no one who is a more severe fundamentalist when it comes to interpreting scripture. But this puts me far to the left of the Pharisees given the content of Christ’s words.
Politically and socially I believe I am to the left of most church going folks. I am also at odds with the Pharisaical self righteousness of the radical left. Not sure where that puts me.
I don’t care about civil unions. Just don’t call it marriage. I don’t believe America is a Christian country (or ever was). I believe in strict separation of church and state, though not in the same way as leftists who interpret it as censorship of traditional religious expression.
I agree with most leftist ideals, which are actually universal, but co-opted by the left. I merely disagree with the means which almost always backfires. The left has a good heart, just don’t let them run anything. And I am pretty sure I am the most radical snowboarder here and could drink you all under the table. Is that the mark of a stodgy hard right blue blood conservative?
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JJF, What do you mean by the more reasonable “center right”? What would make us more reasonable? Most of the leftists here say they like to come here because we are so reasonable.
Calls from the left to be more reasonable or more civil invariable mean to be more agreeable, by which you mean to disagree less. Disagreement is almost always interpreted as verbal assault by the left. It isn’t. We disagree simply because you are wrong. Nothing personal.
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Xion:
You misunderstood me. I put “reasonable” in quotes–
–to argue against the notion that being “center right” is more reasonable because it seems more “moderate.”
My point is that you (and WORLD and its readership generally) are “hard right” in the modern political landscape, but that fact in no way argues against any of your positions. Your positions either stand or fall on their merits, not on the incidental fact of where they are situated in the spectrum of public opinion. But let’s not kid ourselves: you are the right tip of the right wing in modern American politics.
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#86 JJF I understand what you are saying. If the left is left then anyone who disagrees must be right by definition.
Buddy’s original question was to admit something we dislike about the hard right to show that we aren’t there ourselves. I did that, but you insist that there can be nothing to the right of World which is at the very extreme right. Well, since you’ve made up your mind will any amount of proof persuade you?
What I find fascinating is that the left is becoming all of the things they hate and it is the right who stands for the true classic liberal principles. It is the left who argues against censorship and tyranny and genocide and fascism and oppression and racism while setting up systems to commit all of those things.
If you are accusing us of opposing those things then I’ll take that as a compliment.
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I suppose it would not be incorrect to say that the right is the new left.
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The proof I’ve been looking for is this: on what contemporary issues in American politics does some other significant group hold views further to the right than WORLD and its readership?
You have not named any. You’ve given an entirely theoretical position that the true “hard right” would never change anything and would never grant mercy, but (1) no one actually believes that and (2) it is general and theoretical rather than specific to an actual issue in contemporary politics.
For example: “On health care, WORLD and its readers largely believe ___, but the influential right-wing think-tank The Heritage Foundation thinks ___, and most here find that opinion too conservative.”
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#1 is a universal you can’t possibly validate. It’s also undermined by “largely believe” in your last sentence. I can agree with “largely” but no with “no one”. Take a look at the immigration issue and I bet you’ll get a divergence of opinion. Get beyond cutting the budget to specifics and you may find even more diversity.
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#89 Well JJF, since you don’t accept my characterization, the ball is in your court. Please tell us all the evil things the left thinks the right believes and I will show you how this evil boogeyman doesn’t exist. The left’s characterization of the right is for the most part imaginary.
I can take a stab at conjuring up this right wing straw man. Let’s see, according to the left, the hard right are:
1. Fascists who agree with Hitler
2. Want women to get abortions with coat hangers.
3. Racists
4. Oppress women
5. Want to ban books
6. Advocate censorship
7. Hate gays
8. Want to destroy the environment
9. Want to teach myths in science class
10. Hate science
11. Advocate Taliban like laws like stoning children to death.
12. Love war and violence
13. Want violent revolution
14. Want anarchy
15. Want a theocracy to impose their cultish views on others
16. Hate reason and logic
17. Are stupid and backward
I could go on. These are things we hear every day about the evil right. But the evil right doesn’t exist. The right today are classical liberals.
People who advocate pulling the arms and legs off of children call those who don’t violent extremists. Weird. What an upside down world.
Now if you want to discuss actual political differences civilly, like why Keynesian economics doesn’t work, then we can have a rational discussion without the ridiculous labeling.
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#91 – Great post, XION.
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