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Middle East murder
The way you behave reflects who you are. But the way you respond to others’ behavior is just as revealing of your character. This is why we express shock at terrible crimes and sympathy with innocent victims. If someone jokes about a tragedy or suggests that it might be a good thing, we place that person in a corresponding moral category—jerk, monster, whatever—and adjust our dealings with him accordingly.
For this reason it’s worth noting people’s reactions to the horrific murder of the Fogel family in the Israeli West Bank settlement of Itamar. Palestinian terrorists broke into their home late Friday night, stabbing Udi and Ruth to death along with three of their children, including 3-month-old Hadas, who was sleeping nuzzled with her father at the time. The 12-year-old daughter came home late from a youth activity to discover the bloody nightmare.
Consider the killers. The killing was human butchery. It was up close and personal. Stabbing. Slashing throats. Still worse, these people murdered children in this way. The 11-year-old boy was reading in bed. The 4-year-old girl was sleeping in bed. They did not even spare the baby. Not even the baby.
Consider their reception in Gaza. People rejoiced in the streets and gave out candy in celebration. Apparently, ordinary people in that community saw this as a great moral accomplishment. A Hamas government spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, said, “We in Hamas movement offer full support to actions against the Israeli settlers who every day commit crimes, kill, and terrorize the Palestinians in the territories and villages with the full support of the government and the army.” Translation: This is fair game.
Consider the Palestinian Authority. A spokesman for President Obama said, “There is no possible justification for the killing of parents and children in their home. We call on the Palestinian Authority to unequivocally condemn this terrorist attack.” But all that we got from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was a statement condemning “all acts of violence against civilians, regardless of who carried them out and their motives.” In other words, “Well, there’s violence on both sides, and we need to stop.” It’s all just “violence.” To his credit, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad called it terrorism, saying he “clearly and firmly denounces the terror attack, just as I have denounced crimes against Palestinians.”
Consider also the Western press. This BBC report described the murderer (or murderers) not as a terrorist, but as “an intruder” and the 2002 terrorist attacker as a “Palestinian gunman.” Wall Street Journal reporter Joshua Mitnik seems more concerned about what Jewish settlers might do in response than he is about the crime itself. Noting that the area is “known for vigilantism against Palestinians,” he even seems to suggest that they had it coming to them.
Events like this let you know who you’re dealing with.
back to top59 Comments to “Middle East murder”
Bret Stephens wrote about this in Tuesday’s WSJ Global View.
“…how did the Palestinian movement’s legion of fellow travelers in the West become so infatuated with a cause that they were willing to ignore its crimes – or, if not quite ignore them, treat them as no more than a function of the supposedly infinetly greater crim of Israeli occupation?”
“For 60 years, no nation has been held to such stringent moral account, or such ceaseless international hectoring, as Israel. And no people has been held to so slight an account as the Palestinians.”
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Religion of Peace?
Their founder was a terrorist and they all revere and honor him as a prophet.
What can we really expect from this religion founded on terror?
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Religion of Peace indeed.
I watched The Good Wife last night, and they were entertaining a donor at the house, a donor who was Jewish, who had concerns that the candidate cared about Israel. The candidate’s children didn’t understand that the purpose of having the man over for dinner was to woo money out of him, and accused Israel over the flotilla/blockade event last year. I doubt we’ll see a similar scene about the Fogels and the savage way in which they were killed. I plan to remind people of the Fogels every time they defend the Palestinians. We know the hearts of these people, despite their defenders here. These are the same people who were dancing in the streets on 9/11.
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Wow, this is terrible. My respect for Abbas has just gone into the toilet. Then again, everyone should remember that Fatah’s goal is to wipe Israel off the map, no matter what they say publicly. They’re just not as open about their true intentions as Hamas is.
For an interesting inside look at Fatah and the PLO, I recommend a book called Once an Arafat Man by Tass Saada. He used to be a sniper for the PLO and chauffeur for Yassir Arafat, and his goal was to kill as many Jews as possible. He’s now an Arab Christian living in Gaza, but he’s pro-Israel. Anyway, his views are very interesting, regarding for example the promises made to Ishmael, and he also gives a fascinating inside look at how the PLO was run, and how their deception machine worked, when he was an insider in the organization. He also was able to witness the Gospel to Yassir Arafat before Arafat’s death, and it’s ambiguous whether Arafat came to faith in Christ right toward the end.
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NJL (#3),
You said: ” I plan to remind people of the Fogels every time they defend the Palestinians.”
I intend to do the exact same thing!!
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As I wrote myself a “Fogel Obituary” – to burn the names, etc. into my thick skull, I noticed the date of the attack: 3/11/11; that’s three, eleven, eleven!!
Did the terrorists deliberately choose that date on which to murder the Fogel family???
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It rarely happens that there are Jewish terrorists who murder innocent Palestinians. But I do recall a case of that from about 5 or 6 years ago. I remember noticing the difference in reaction: in Israel there were no celebrations, and the population and government of Israel unequivocally condemned the murders. On the other hand, whenever innocent Jews are murdered, the general population of the West Bank and Gaza celebrate (not every single Arab there celebrates, but it appears to be a vast majority). That says a lot about the difference between the two religions, in my view.
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Is anyone surprised here? After 9/11/01 the Israelis mourned the deaths with us. They flew flags at half mast. Meanwhile what did we see (courtesy of CNN at least until they pulled the news clip) from the Palestinians? Massive jubilant celebration ended only by PR-conscious PLO police under the orders of Arafat or his minions.
But..
let there be no mistake here. Some of you saw the Spielberg film about how Israeli agents tracked down and eliminated all the Palestinians who participated in the 72 Olympic massacre. Golda may be long gone. But she has successors with backbone and those folks ARE NOT making any conference call to BHO to get his opinion on what to do next.
The throat slitters days are numbered.
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Yep, just like the murder threats against the Rs in Wisconsin on another BB I frequent, the “enablers” will be very quiet on this topic.
Just like all bullies and socialists, when the facts are way too obvious to spin, they will disappear, to pitch in later if they can find a way to malign the “messenger” w/o discussing the facts!!!
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# 8 The throat slitters days are numbered.
And anyone who doubts this hasn’t read the prophecies of the Bible
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Freedom Nut – the “enablers” will be very quiet on this topic…
You must have read my mind. I was just marvelaing that this story has been up for almost a full day and we’ve yet to hear a peep from our resident left-wingers. For some reason that I cannot fathom, in the mind of the American Left Israel is always at fault and the Palestinians are always the victims, regardless of the facts.
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Sawgunner – Golda may be long gone. But she has successors with backbone…
Well said. Bibi is a mensch. Obama, not so much.
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I once read an author (both Jewish & Christian) who said that Jews and Christians were always hated and persecuted throughout history because they were the visible reminder of God intervening in history. As Christians, we know the end of our suffering. It is good to know that there is a promise of the Jews coming to Christ (Romans 11), then they will know that peace which passes all understanding. The Palestinians too, need to know that peace.
May God comfort and care for the remaining Fogel children.
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For 60 years, no nation has been held to such stringent moral account, or such ceaseless international hectoring, as Israel. And no people has been held to so slight an account as the Palestinians.”
Yep lots of people know that Israel is a nasty imperialist power miltarily occupying land that does not belong to it, and depriving millions of any civil rights whatsoever.
BUT…Israel does not care.
They are the chosen people, their god gave them the land, all Palestinians are terrorists, etc.
The only difference between the Israeli zealots and the Paletinian zealots is that the Israelis are better armed and wealthier.
That certainly does not make them any more moral.
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From the Palestinian’s point of view this Isreali family were all criminals occupying their land. Civil authorities refused to evict them. They took matters into their own hands.
Their claims to this land is every bit as strong as, if not stronger than, the Israelis. In this country most conservatives believe in defending your own home and territory with guns, knives, whatever works.
Why shouldn’t the Palestinians be allowed to do the same thing?
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“From the Palestinian’s point of view this Isreali family were all criminals occupying their land. Civil authorities refused to evict them. They took matters into their own hands.”
Does that include the four month old?
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Thank you, #15, for the Al Quaeda viewpoint.
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KBells, does this answer your question?
By Bob Unruh
© 2011 WorldNetDaily
Muslim publications have been busy during Islam’s month of Ramadan calling for increased jihad against “infidels,” describing it as an “eternal” and “most important” commandment and explaining that a ban on killing the elderly, women and children “doesn’t apply to Israeli society.”
Jihad ban on killing elderly, children ‘doesn’t apply to Israel’ http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=202901#ixzz1Gsy7aANt
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#14 & #15 illustrates my point. I read that, think about the growing anti-Semitism and holocaust denial in Europe, and realize maybe I’m witnessing the spirit that will ultimately bring us Armageddon.
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I think you’re right. Arcadia’s dark master is the same as Hitler’s.
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Where ever darkness prevails, those that are taken over by it, always rejoice in death.
Where as those of the Light, rejoice in life.
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Go #12! I like Bibi. He loves his country.
Arcadia has hit a new low in defending the murderers of a three month old baby.
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I carry no brief whatsoever for the cold-blooded murderers of this family.
But there are atrocities on boths sides of this conflict.
Where were Israel’s apologists when American Rachel Corrie was crushed to death by an Israeli Army bulldozer? (No, I really don’t follow this conflict very closely, I just happen to remember this particular story.)
Or do we only discuss atrocities against the “good guys” here?
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Let’s count. Israeli terrorist attack against Palestinian terrorist attack; mortar for mortar; rock for rock.
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The old moral-equivalence canard strikes again!
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Like he said, he doesn’t follow this issue very closely, otherwise he would have realized how inapt a comparison that was.
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23. The woman choose to be there, those children didn’t. There is good evidence for Corrie’s death was an accident. The Fogals were was murdered in cold blood. Nobody celebrated Corrie’s death by passing out candy. Weak, weak comparison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
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It shows just how twisted and depraved the human mind can become, when under the power of darkness, that it can celebrate/minimize the premeditated murder of innocent children, including the slitting of an infant’s throat:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/262229/why-they-celebrate-murdering-children-andrew-c-mccarthy?page=2
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#23 Oh come on. The death of American Rachel Corrie doesn’t seem to have been an ‘atrocity’ at all. Rather it was just an example of another foolish activist American treating the world like her personal sandbox. Playing “cat and mouse” with a bulldozer is a dangerous and life-threatening proposition in any country.
The link reported the Israeli response: “This is a regrettable accident,” Israeli Defence Forces [sic] spokesman Captain Jacob Dallal was reported as saying in Ha’aretz newspaper. “We are dealing with a group of protesters who were acting very irresponsibly, putting everyone in danger.”
There could be atrocities that go unreported, but when there is celebration in the streets of Gaza, the wary may be forgiven for thinking there must be some family grieving in Israel.
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Arcadia, the Palistinian argument of claiming the land is theirs is would be the same as all Latinos who immigrated to the US and their descendants like me claiming that we were here first and then proceed to attempt to exterminate all others in the US. Read up on the history of the Middle East to find the origins of the Palestinians. It is almost the same as many of my ethnicity/culture who came here to work in the fields.
When it comes down to it, who suffers? The Palestinians living among the Israelis? Or the Palestinians living in the UN mandated apartheid regions of the west bank or the Gaza strip? That tiny strip of land was thriving until the Jews were kicked out by international pressure.
Also go back to 1948, the Palestians and Jews in Israel were living in peace, but then the Palestinians left their homes so that the surrounding Arab nations could exterminate their Jewish neighbors. The Arab nations however lost the war. Also, Israel funded the Palestinian refugee camps for the next 30 years, not the Arab nations that “want” a Palestinian state.
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Rom116 – …the Palestinians left their homes so that the surrounding Arab nations could exterminate their Jewish neighbors. The Arab nations however lost the war.
This is a good point, and one that’s often overlooked today. In the book I recommended in #4 (linked below), the Palestinian author adds another detail to that history: one of the reasons the surrounding Arab nations declared war on Israel, was that they were partially egged-on to do so by the Soviet Union, using Soviet-supplied arms. It turns out, the Soviets wanted the Arabs to essentially field-test their weapons in a real-life shooting-war scenario. The weapons did not perform so well, and that gave the U.S.S.R. valuable information. So the Russian role in the events of 1948 should not be forgotten.
http://www.amazon.com/Once-Arafat-Man-Story-Sniper/dp/1414334443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300467964&sr=1-1
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Debra: #23 Oh come on. The death of American Rachel Corrie doesn’t seem to have been an ‘atrocity’ at all. Rather it was just an example of another foolish activist American treating the world like her personal sandbox. Playing “cat and mouse” with a bulldozer is a dangerous and life-threatening proposition in any country
So how would you characterize the actions of the Israeli parents who chose to move their precious child into a very dangerous situation? I characterize it as blind zealotry.
ROM: The UN Resolutions, particularly 242 make it very clear that Isral has no right to these territories. They were never intended to be part of Israel and their continuing occupation of them attempts to create “facts on the ground” are clear violations of international law.
If the UN decided tomorrow that that the county next to you properly belongs to the a Native American Tribe, and then that tribe occupied that county and proceded to move into your county, occupying your home or land gunpoint, and no authority told them to stop, what would you do?
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“what would you do?”
I wouldn’t start killing children, nor would I celebrate when someone else did.
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That is not the scenario, Arcadia. There was no one living in Israel after the tree tax by the Ottomans. It was after the desertification of the climate there that all the Ottomans and Arabs living there left, and when the Jews started moving back after 1750 so years. They reclaimed the land, and once the land started being profitable again, they began hiring Arabs from all over to work the land. The Palestinians were descendants of those workers, and got along full well with the Jews up until they left on the invitation of the neighboring Arab nations.
Secondly, your proposed scenario is far from the truth.
The best analogy of this scenario I could give would be my ancestors coming here to work whatever work most Americans wouldn’t do (that they did) but then during my generation all of the Hispanic nations inform us to leave so that they can step in and exterminate all other Americans and then leave us all that land. Of course, Those nations would fail and all those who left the US frankly would have no right to claim whole swaths of the US for their own.
Also the west bank and the Golan heights indeed were not Israel’s, but they gained that territory when they were invaded and when they repelled said invasions.
If you want my personal opinion on the whole “Mideast solution” this whole apartheid being proposed is frankly of Hell. It has only allowed for radicalism to thrive and grow like a cancer, and can be ended if both the Palestinians and the Israelis are reintegrated like they were. Even during the Old Testament, the Jews were not the only ones living in that land, and they managed to live with multiple ethnicities in relative peace in several periods throughout their history. They lived in peace side by side on every block for over 100 years, and both mutually suffered under the Ottoman empire, so I do not see why people, especially the left, insist on this racist apartheid. Then again, liberals currently are represented mostly by the Democratic party, which has well over a century of defending racist policies in its history. Maybe that rubbed off onto neoliberalism.
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This is inspiring:
Even after the horrific massacre, local Jewish residents and the IDF help bring new life into world: IDF forces and local paramedics helped save the life of a Palestinian woman and her newly born infant Wednesday, at the settlement where Fogel relatives are sitting Shiva (sitting in mourning in their home) for the five family members brutally murdered last week.
The full story is here:
http://unitedwithisrael.org/jewish-residents-save-arab-baby/
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Look at the civil rights acts of 1957 and 1964, the first written and passed by Republicans, and the second written by Republicans and then miraculously passed in a democratic controlled Congress. Look closer though and you see that the Republicans voted for the bill in greater proportions than the Democrats did.
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Buzzy, thanks for that article.
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#32 So how would you characterize the actions of the Israeli parents who chose to move their precious child into a very dangerous situation?
Courageous. Patriotic. Hopeful.
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Debra: So Rachel Corrie who risked her life to protect someone else’s home from a bulldozer is a “foolish activist”, and folks who risk their child’s life to claim a home which does not belong to them are brave and courageous patriots, eh?
Any contortion of the truth will do to create a Jewish martyr for the Christians to sob about, but chuckle behind their handkerchiefs as the unsaved child (and the parents) burn in hell.
ROM116. That was when more Democrats were really Dixiecrats bitterly opposed to equal rights.
And I am relieved to hear that the Israeli Zionist war heroes who went on to run the country really accomplished nothing as there was nobody there to fight against.
Your total lack of historical knowledge is showing.
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Lack of historical knowledge? So you resurt to wild insults when you cannot back your claim? Not to mention you make a false argument that “That was when more Democrats were really Dixiecrats bitterly opposed to equal rights.” The dixiecrats stayed democrat, Robert Byrd stayed democrat and in the Senate for the world record time. Many of the dixiecrats in office and in the DNC stayed in the DNC. The deep south kept voting democrat well into the Reagan administration. The southern strategy worked in the carolinas, but not more south than that. Indeed though, the GOP would have been much better off if that and Nixon never took off the ground.
Interestingly enough, your comments reveal you actually believe the trash they teach you in your local public schools.
I was lucky to have all my dad’s textbooks and biographies from yale sitting on his bookshelves. They came in handy in every debate with any given conservative or liberal history teacher. It seems they never actually teach what happened.
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Debra: So Rachel Corrie who risked her life to protect someone else’s home from a bulldozer is a “foolish activist”, and folks who risk their child’s life to claim a home which does not belong to them are brave and courageous patriots, eh?
If an ignorant foolish leftist wants to play in front of a bulldozer and gets killed in the process, then by all means give her a Darwin award, but don’t make a martyr out of her idiocy. That land belongs to Israel, and they have every right to build on it and defend it. Period.
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Wagus (24): Let’s count. Israeli terrorist attack against Palestinian terrorist attack; mortar for mortar; rock for rock …
Frank: … civilian death for civilian death.
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Debra,
It’s sad that your heart excuses an IDF bulldozer plowing even an “ignorant foolish leftist” to death.
In describing Rachel Corrie, you omitted one very relevant adjective: unarmed.
Rachel Corrie and her fellow protesters were peacefully protesting what they viewed to be the unjust destruction of Palestinian homes.
They threatened and endangering no one.
Civilized countries don’t murder passive (i.e., unarmed) resistors in cold blood. They place them under arrest and get them out of the way of whatever is trying to be (presumably justly) accomplished.
“This is our land, and we have every right to build here” in no way justifies what was done to her.
The fact that you so casually dismiss her death because the operator of the Israeli bulldozer was “in the right” and she was an “ignorant foolish leftist” is sickening.
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I should expect you would see things differently if Ms. Corrie was a pro-life protester who was coldly killed by police or an abortion clinic operator because she had chained herself to the clinic door.
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Frank,
I wonder that you have chosen to bring this up as a valid comparison to the family murdered in their sleep. I would have thought you could come up with a real comparison. This is clearly NOT.
It is true that Palestinians are in a hard place, but it’s a situation primarily of their own making. My sympathies are with their children whose futures are being squandered as they are used as pawns by their own government and Muslim extremists who find their plight a convenient rallying point. My sympathies are with Israel who is surrounded by enemies desiring to kill. My sympathies are with the 5 murdered in their own home.
But an individual who travels thousands of miles to a country not her own, to interfere with a sovereign nation by “playing cat and mouse” with a bulldozer, can expect it not to end well, and doesn’t get much of my sympathy when it doesn’t. She freely chose put herself in danger as an individual, and paid the price. That would be the case regardless of her political party—it just so happens that helping Palestinians in their fight to destroy Israel seems to be of more interest to the far left . [The right is currently busy bemoaning the fact that the US is not leading the bombing on the sovereign nation of Libya, but that should be another thread.]
And no thank you. I’m not interested in alternative theologies that conveniently help justify wiping Israel off the map.
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Frank,
Of the people who were actually there, you have chosen to believe the far left activists’ account of the Corrie incident over that of the official, sovereign government of Israel. That’s your choice, but it’s not incumbent on anyone else to follow you in it. And I don’t.
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BTW, Frank,
You misquoted me a couple of times. Don’t play fast and loose with my words unless you want to be thought of as one who is in the habit of doing so.
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Debra,
I don’t have time to address this at the moment, but it’s just as well, because I have a few questions for clarification first:
“[A]lternative theologies that conveniently help justify wiping Israel off the map” (46): Which “alternative theologies”? Please elaborate. If you’re referring to Christian Reconstructionism, you’re mistaken/misinformed. (And if you think I’m wrong about that, again, please elaborate.)
“But an individual who travels thousands of miles to a country not her own, to interfere with a sovereign nation” (46): When armies (with rifles, tanks and fighter jets) do this, they are viewed as either liberators or as meddlers. (Think Iraq. Or Libya. Both “sovereign nations” with whom our celebrated forces have interfered/are interfering.) But when unarmed passive protestors (no matter how misguided) do this, they are somehow worthy of summary execution?
“[Y]ou have chosen to believe the far left activists’ account of the Corrie incident over that of the official, sovereign government of Israel” (47): “Official sovereign governments” lie, Debra. Even our very own. Perhaps not always, but too often to be ignored. You know this.
“You misquoted me a couple of times” (48): Where?
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There’s no moral equivalence between slashing children’s throats while they sleep and not moving out the path of a bull dozer. Do you really want to press this comparison?
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Wagus,
Nor did I suggest there was moral equivalence. I detest the murderers of the Israeli family as much as I detest the operator of the IDF bulldozer that crushed Rachel Corrie to death.
I was merely taking the opportunity of this story to point out that the vast majority of my fellow Christian conservatives don’t bat an eye when civilians — Palestinian, American, whatever — fall victim to Israeli forces. I think it’s for two reasons:
1. Dispensationalist premillennialism. “The Jews are still God’s chosen people, and contemporary Israel is the visible manifestation of that fact.”
2. Reflexive acquiescence to the State — at least, when “the State” in question is Israeli or American. (They’re not too trusting of anybody else’s, even our “allies’.”)
When Israeli civilians are killed in this conflict, the perpetrators are always terrorists — by which is meant “non-state actors.” After all, they don’t wear uniforms — they don’t enjoy the sanction of a “sovereign state.”
But when Palestinian civilians are killed (see the graph to which I referred you at (42)), the perpetrators are virtually always armed agents of “the sovereign state of Israel.” God’s chosen people. Ergo, whatever they do is justified.
Up to and including bulldozing ignorant leftist unarmed American protestors.
I’d almost bet money that if Israeli commandos slit the throats of a sleeping Palestinian family, Israel’s American evangelical apologists would find a way to justify it.
Uniforms. Sovereign State. God’s chosen people.
And all that.
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Frank, what percentage of the Palestinian civilian deaths were caused by their own side and what makes someone a civilian?
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html
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Go back to 1972 Munich. There’s systemic intentionality fomenting the actions of Palestinians. It’s an existential battle. They won’t quit while Israel exists.
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#51 Frank “I was merely taking the opportunity of this story to point out that the vast majority of my fellow Christian conservatives don’t bat an eye when civilians — Palestinian, American, whatever — fall victim to Israeli forces.”
Ridiculous! Vast majority? You mean like none? Prove it! Certainly no one here. No true Christian would approve of murder. Dispensationalism isn’t grounds for throwing out morality because one is God’s chosen. Have you ever read what God said about his chosen? He approved of very little they did.
Dispensationalism isn’t Zionism. It is simply a literal method of interpreting the Bible that allows God to instruct people differently at different times. For example, all people aren’t required to build arks.
It allows God’s directives to Israel to stand without trying to reinterpret the OT by replacing Israel with the church. It has nothing to do with approving immoral acts by any nation, regardless of their place in prophesy.
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#4 Buzzy “Wow, this is terrible. My respect for Abbas has just gone into the toilet.”
Maybe you didn’t realize this but Mahmoud Abbas (aka Abu Mazen) was one of the financiers of the Munich massacre. This came from Abu Daoud the master mind of the massacre. These two men were close friends and Abbas eulogized Abu Daoud at his death.
This is how twisted our world has become. Yasser Arafat who ordered the Munich Massacre was given the Nobel Peace prize. Abu Mazen who financed the murders is loved by the West and the Obama administration. Obama also received the Nobel Peace prize but has escalated the war in Afghanistan and has just started a new war with Libya.
Peace protesters always side with the Palestinians whose charter calls for genocide against the Jews. Palestinians cheer and celebrate the murder of every Jew and Western liberals defend their actions. Jimmy Carter wrote in “Peace not Apartheid” that the Palestinians are justified in using terror to achieve their political goals. He also advocates racist apartheid as the final solution to the Jewish problem. Note that Jimmy Carter also received the Nobel Peace prize.
The recurring theme here is that all you need to do to win the Nobel Peace prize or be considered an advocate for peace by Western liberals is to kill Jews or praise those who do.
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Frank, to answer your questions in #49:
Q: “Which ‘alternative theologies’?”
A: You don’t read your own links? The one you linked to which is clearly labeled as such.
Q: “But when unarmed passive protestors (no matter how misguided) do this, they are somehow worthy of summary execution?”
A: No, and you failed to give an example of any summary executions. Your comments lead me to think that, for you, an Israeli family of 5 murdered in their sleep (the mother was awake and fought back) doesn’t qualify, since you did not choose to describe their deaths in such strong terms.
Q: Where? [you asked where you misquoted me].
A: In #43 none of the words in quotes are mine except “ignorant foolish leftist” (they are close, but you changed the meaning somewhat). If the misquotes were accidental or you were not trying to deliberately put words in my mouth, then I’m not going to quibble over a misunderstanding. Otherwise, cut it out.
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I shouldn’t have to point this out, but ‘unarmed’ and ‘passive’ are much easier to determine from our easy chairs in the US where conflicts are more civilized….usually. But Israel often resembles a war zone, where Palestinians who appear to be unarmed and non-threatening are often simply waiting for a larger crowd to show up before they detonate.
Could the bulldozer incident have been handled better? Probably. Was it murder? I absolutely don’t think so. But that will not stop Palestinians who want to wipe Israel off the map (and their supporters here and abroad) from claiming otherwise.
And I still find it interesting, and telling, that this is the kind of incident being set up as a valid comparison to the 5 brutal murders of the Israeli family sleeping in their home. It’s shameful.
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Debra,
I’ll try to interact with more of your reply, as time allows. For now, I’ll pluck a couple of “low-hanging fruits” re. misunderstandings from my use of quote marks.
1. At (43), the only other words besides “ignorant foolish leftist” that I put in quotes were (in bold, and in context):
You’re right — I was not not trying to put those exact words in your mouth. The “this is our land” remark in particular was offered as an hypothetical statement from somebody such as an Israeli official or citizen in support of their nation’s actions or policies.
Nevertheless, are you suggesting that those remarks differ substantially from, “That land belongs to Israel, and they have every right to build on it and defend it. Period.”?
2. And your reply began with my Q., “Which ‘alternative theologies’?” You replied:
Again, my use of quotes served to muddle matters rather than clarify. My question at (49) should have been phrased more precisely, e.g.:
If any theology justifies an attack on Israel, it would be pretribulational premillennialism. Read Gary North’s articles, “The Unannounced Reason Behind American Fundamentalism’s Support for the State of Israel” (July 2000) and “Fundamentalism’s Bloody Homeland for Jews” (November 2003).
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Frank there is good evidence that Corrie’s death was an accident. There was no way this murder was, thus the difference in outrage. Did you look at my link in 52.
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