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Confession of a child-dragging churchgoer
I confess I was surprised when I stumbled across a Barna survey that examines how having children influences parents’ relationships with churches, because the results are at odds with what preserves my own sanity. Apparently having children does not draw nearly as many people into church as I would have thought.
If I’m being completely honest (and why not try that once in a while, at least during the Lenten season?), I’ll admit that having children is, more often than not, the only reason I’m in church.
I understand that this makes me a bad Christian. Or is perhaps proof of my poor faith, or my introversion, or just my desire to wallow in bed the one day I don’t have to get up for anything, the one day my children miraculously stay in their own beds and sleep like normal people are supposed to do.
But I go to church, often only because I am dragging them with me, and often because if I don’t draw close to the liturgy and the Cross and the blessing, I may well go stark-raving mad. And if that happens, no reasonable person who has also been a parent can deny the likelihood that these children are at least partly to blame.
It’s ironic, I think, that my children are one of the primary reasons I often feel so tired that I’d rather skip church, yet they are the same reason I drag myself up (often with a good kick in the rear from my wife) and take them. Then there is the dressing and the combing of unruly hair and the carping about why a second bowl of some sugary cereal isn’t a privilege on Sundays.
The kids are difficult to get ready, too.
And then we are driving, and then we are there, usually late, at which point I immediately repent and resolve to get up extra early next Sunday. But people are gracious, at least in this church, and they make room, and the old women beam at my four boys, which raises yet another irony—without them I likely wouldn’t be late, but I think it’s only because I have them that my lateness is tolerable.
Some Sundays everyone is peaceful, but other Sundays I endure several successive requests for bathroom visits, and hissed complaints about brothers, and a 3-year-old who is never satisfied unless he is in my arms, or standing on the back of the pew in front of us, or crawling about like a commando beneath the pews. It can be a spectacle, having these children in church, and I hope I’m forgiven when I think a long bath and a mimosa might have better enhanced my holiness.
But I take them, and afterward I am always glad that I did, and more often than not, though I am always convinced it won’t happen this time, God reaches me, too. We draw close to one another in church, and for a time we are (relatively) silent, and we hear the Good News, which is that love has overcome despair, salvation has overcome death.
And even the likes of this tired, darkened heart, as I survey my sons when they don’t know I am watching them, finds peace.
back to top83 Comments to “Confession of a child-dragging churchgoer”
Great post, Tony. Fr. Stephen at Glory to God for All Things had a post recently about The Grace of Just Showing Up. We have a young mother in our church who hasn’t been coming regularly. She feels like her two kids are too distracting — both to herself and others. I PM’d with her on Facebook one evening, and encouraged her just to come. There’s a grace in just showing up, and as you mentioned, Tony, the friendliness and non-annoyance expressed by the parishioners when it comes to kid noise is encouraging.
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Well…yes…I have a certain tolerance for kid noise…but not a lot.
I have three kids. They were expected to behave at church, and they did.
I find it extremely uncomfortable and distracting to have kids who are really noisy, crying, or–heaven forbid!–crawling around under the pews during church service. I cannot concentrate on God, on the sermon, or on anything else.
So, parents need to teach their kids to be respectful, quiet, and caring, or they should sit outside with them or put them in Sunday School where someone else can (perhaps) teach them the things their parents ought to be teaching them.
I know I sound like a curmudgeon, and I don’t mean to be. But, as a certified teacher (often of young kids in my career) and as a mother myself, I KNOW that most kids are MORE THAN CAPABLE of behaving during church.
It is poor parenting skills, and a lack of care of other people, that usually make for noisy, naughty kids.
Yes, of course, I’m tolerant of the occasional misbehavior or loud noises from children. OCCASIONAL being the operative word. I am particularly tolerant of this when the parents are obviously dealing with the problem immediately and with skill, rather than ignoring it or sitting there and shushing the child repeatedly for 60 minutes (such shushing is often louder than the original problem).
But, children in the past learned to sit and behave. And, the only reason we often don’t see it now-a-days is that parents have lost the ability to be parents.
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As one who spent years showing up with a bunch of small children in tow on Sundays when my husband had to work, I often wondered if it was worth it. But I knew that on Sundays, I needed to make sure my children grew up going to church. I
t was difficult, but as Tony mentioned the grace of the preaching of the word ministered to us all. It still does.
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Oh, you saw us?
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“So, parents need to teach their kids to be respectful, quiet, and caring,”
Yes they should but sometimes it takes a little time.
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I had a pastor who would stop in the middle of the sermon and ask a parent to take a crying child out. After awhile the tenseness of waiting for his reaction became more distracting then the child.
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Hilarious, Tony. Loved it! I admit it… I’m one of those easily distracted by anything in church. I’m also one of those who believe in making Sunday school a must for my children. They love it… now. I was a child who refused to go to Sunday school and paid dearly for it with unimaginable boredom, contempt for church, and a view of God that discouraged my desire for Him. It wasn’t until I experienced my own depravity through having kids that I was back as an adult to listen to the teaching this time!
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We kids were taught to be still and be quiet in church too, but I will say I think it was easier for us than for many children, espcially many boys. First, we were all intelligent and good with words, so we could understand and follow what was going on, even when it was aimed at adults; second, few of us are athletic or overly energetic.
When I had foster kids, I was very glad my church didn’t have a children’s church. If I had biological children, they’d be in the service (even if nursery and children’s church were available), and I wanted foster kids in the service too, but it would have been hard to justify forcing their presence on fellow parishioners if I had had an option.
I did a balancing act in keeping the kids quiet–I never did have them as quiet as felt good to me, and a few times I had to take one out because a tantrum got underway. I myself didn’t get very much out of the service. But they were reasonably quiet, and they were exposed to church and to God’s love through the service and God’s people.
I think some children can’t not wiggle. (I’m a grown-up who changes position constantly when sitting, even on soft furniture.) Some children won’t be able to be still and quiet as well as other children, but I think the expectation my family had, of perfect stillness and quiet and of never needing to use the rest room, is probably unrealistic for most children, so I like to cut parents some slack as long as both parents and children are “trying.” After all, I really do want the children to be able to worship with the family of God! And Christ was very, very firm about not sending the children away from Him.
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Our church is very kind toward our children. Some to the people asked me why I kept taking the little ones out and assured me over and over that they love the sounds of children’s voices and they are most welcome, and they understand they are a work in progress. We now sit front and center. The younger three still have difficulties but this last week we were able to stay the entire time, which was a first for me in years.
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Agreed, Cheryl. I certainly wasn’t talking about normal wiggling.
And, I completely understand that foster children, or children with problems will be different. I’m quite tolerant of the young man (he really is a man now) who–when younger–would occasionally call out in joy because he has Down’s Syndrome.
Again, Kbells, I also understand the occasional problem where the child has a meltdown, or gets sick, or fails to behave.
As for the pastor who has to stop to ask the parents to take their children out…he should never have had to do that, because the parents should have immediately removed their child themselves when the child became a distraction.
Seriously, I was taught to do that as a parent, and I expect it of others. It should never come to the point where a child is so distracting that the pastor has to stop and ask that something be done. Common courtesy would say that the parent should long since have quieted the child or taken the child out.
THAT is exactly the rude behavior that sets my teeth on edge!!
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But see, Mumsee, you DO take them out when necessary.
And, for those that are not distracted, it is all well and good for them to say that they love the sound of noisy children’s voices. But, for the rest of us who DO NOT love such sounds…it isn’t fair for them to speak for us.
I actually think there are a lot more of us who are distracted than those who are not.
Interestingly enough, when I’m teaching, I’m highly tolerant of noise, so long as it is “good noise” (i.e. discussion, learning, chatting about the project, etc.) But, I have been dinged from some parents who want their kids to work in absolute silence. My reply to them is simply that there are few work spaces in the world where there is absolute silence, so learning to work well in places where there is a reasonable amount of controlled noise is good for everyone, even if it is not ideal for some.
I did, however, insist on absolute quiet for testing. It wasn’t fair to subject those kids who were less noise tolerant to distractions during their tests.
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This is good for me to read, though, since I’d never really connected the two things before. In other words, I didn’t like that I would occasionally get complaints from the parents of students who needed total silence, because I always had a very active, very engaging, and very busy classroom. And, I liked it that way (as did the majority of the parents and students.)
But, I’m seeing now through this discussion that some people could really have some legitimate concerns.
In fact, in my homeschooling, my middle son doesn’t like noise when he is studying, and I read outloud with my younger daughter. So, we dealt with that by getting him noise canceling headphones, and he listens to music while he works.
Hmmm. Perhaps this is an argument for homeschooling?? lol
Still, when I go back to the classroom, I will keep this discussion in mind. While I always had times (like testing) where I demanded full silence, I will at least understand better why some kids and their parents find “active, engaging and busy” to be a distraction.
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The kids in our church stay through the regular service (though there is a nursery if needed) and we love having all the children there.
In terms of disruptions or noise, we’re more likely to have issues with people (adults) who forget to turn their cell phones off before church.
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“he should never have had to do that, because the parents should have immediately removed their child themselves when the child became a distraction.”
What if this were a visitor who had not grown up in church themselves? What if this were a single parent doing the best they could? This was a large church and the pastor didn’t know everyone by sight.
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Let me clarify, they all have come to me at some time or another to tell me they value the children above the noise.
I am one who does not concentrate well with disruption so I like it quiet. I am trying to relax and enjoy because all of those have told me they prefer me in the church to in the nursery with my children.
We do enjoy when the four year old, a non verbal person, belts out the songs. He is also non musical. But where else did they get the term “joyful noise”? And he does enjoy it!
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I think a lot of families don’t go to church as much because BOTH PARENTS WORK.
It has to be hard to wake your soundly sleeping children, dress them, etc. when, as you say, it is the one day you can sleep in.
We volunteered in the toddlers for a year and didn’t see very many.
I think in the OLD DAYS mothers did a lot to see that the family went to church, and to make a neighborhood a community–BBQs, etc.
Now that MOM WORKS, she just wants to go in and unwind just like DAD.
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Around here churches have LOPPED OFF Sunday evening service and Wednesday night service, and Wednesday suppers.
The pastors get paid to preach on Sunday a.m.–sometimes 3 services. (We are down to 1 service now.) And as our daughter complained, “He only preached for about 20 min., which he preached like he was pressed for time, probably because we sang 10 songs.”
The rest is handled by the Exec.Pastor and all the other pastors for each area.
Part of why a lot of churches are hurting for money now. People began to see too many employees and didn’t feel their tithe was being spent wisely.
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Kbells,
Single parents and parents visiting should be told about the children’s programs and directed to them. Being polite is not just something one does after attending church for many years or if one has a spouse. Perhaps there could have been ladies available to politely go and offer help with the child OUTSIDE of the sanctuary?
What was the pastor supposed to do? Keep preaching when no one could listen anyway?
What about the new person who came to church and doesn’t come back because he or she can’t believe how noisy it was and how rude the other Christians seemed to be because they couldn’t even show normal courtesy?
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Yes, Mrs. New2Me,
I had a hard time getting to church when I was working. I think you’re right that the women-folk in the past were often the movers and shakers about attending church, and it is harder now when both parents are really tired and would just like to sleep in.
I have to admit that the getting ready is the hard thing for me. Once everyone is ready, we might as well be at church as anywhere else. But, I really hate the getting ready part.
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“He only preached for about 20 min., which he preached like he was pressed for time, probably because we sang 10 songs.”
Oh my heavens! My husband would totally commiserate with your daughter. He really, really, really dislikes all the incessant singing (of repetitive praise songs, no less) that take over from the preaching. It seems that the preaching gets less and less, and the songs get more and more of the morning.
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#16
It is usually the people who don’t have a problem that are the most courteous.
In other words, you probably worry more about the small noises of your kids than do even people like me.
And, that is why you’ve been approached by so many people in your church to stay in the service.
I have noticed that those who truly are rude simply don’t notice, don’t care, and don’t ever take their kids out. They can have entire rows staring daggers at them, and they will happily sit there without a worry in the world.
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As a pastor’s wife that is always sitting in the pew alone with my children (3 1/2, 21 months, and 2 weeks old), taking them out when they get noisy is easier said than done, as they are too little to stay in church by themselves, and it can be difficult to cart off two (now three) small children when one is not wanting to listen. Fortunately, people at church are helpful and very forgiving of the occasional fits that occur during a service.
I have not yet been to church with the three of my kids, as my youngest was only born 2 weeks ago, but I’m sure it will be an interesting challenge.
I am very anti-children’s church or Sunday school during a worship service. Children belong in worship with their parents, I only have a little more difficulty because I’m “single parenting” in the pew, since my husband is up front or teaching elsewhere in the building every week. How will they learn to behave if they are never in church?
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I don’t think the point of Tony’s article was how well his boys did/didn’t behave in church.
I also think that there are maybe more effective ways to achieve change than “staring daggers”.
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Mrs. News2Me,
I don’t think it is only in your area that churches don’t have evening services anymore (most of them don’t, anyway). Obviously the pastor does a lot, lot more than preaching Sunday morning, but Sundays are very hard on pastors’ families, and hard on many families with young children–especially when there are two services. If Sunday is to be a “day of rest” and of being with family, the evening service may not be particularly helpful. While I personally wish there were churches in my denomination close to me that had an evening service so that I had that option, I fully understand the choice to drop a service that probably wasn’t very helpful to families.
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Tammy (21): I could have written your blog entry, except that our pastor believes it’s somewhere in the Bible that sermons must last for at least 45 minutes. I think our PCA church is the best one for doctrine, which I subscribe to thoroughly, but the unsingable choruses, one after the other, certainly have me considering if I could get the same benefit from a radio or TV program.
There’s a section in the current issue of Christianity Today that addresses the current conflict between choruses and hymns, well worth reading, especially if your husband’s temperament is like mine, favoring the old hymns.
Ken Bland (hoping that someone in my church reads this).
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Recently, someone was saying to me how much they missed the silence of preparation before the service partly because of the “children running up and down the aisles.” I was about to agree with them; but the passage in Matthew 21:15-16 came to mind. In Jesus’ day, children seemed to have been considered a nuisance, but like so many things, He gave a new perspective on their value (Mark 10:14).
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When I taught a Sunday School of boys, those children could stand on their heads as far as I was concerned, as long as they stayed in the room and didn’t hurt anyone else. I had no real problems; they listened to the lessons, managed to memorize a long passage of scripture, and when I stopped teaching, the two “worst” boys wrote me thank-you notes, without prompting or direction from their parents. Children need to learn self-control, but they should not be expected to “be seen, but not heard.”
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I grew up with my three little brothers, and we were nuts. Which is why kids were taken out of the service after praise. Even then, many people (who did not have children) used to reprimand my parents (there was a spell where no one was born, and then there was a spell that started when my cousin was born where everyone had kids) and would compare my brothers and I to three kids who would sit quietly. Now, all those people are asking my parents how they got my three brothers and I to behave so well at the age of five.
When I am a parent, and I have kids who are not sitting still, I will do what my parents did and simply take them out of the meeting after worship. This of course means I should probably attend a church that has a kid’s Sunday school during the meeting, but hey, I think us four turned out alright.
PS we kept going to the same church even when we moved out of NYC to Pennsylvania. Getting a family of six up and ready at six is a very interesting and unique experience.
BW, Hopesprings, my mom tried the staring daggers thing but she realized it failed quickly as my little bro’s and I were and still are completely unaware of people’s facial expressions. It still doesn’t register with me.
#21 Tammy
I totally agree with repetitive songs. They drive me nuts. Unfortunately everyone I know in Colombia is infatuated with Hillsong. I remember seeing one of their recorded services playing in the background, and after repeating a chorus of one of their songs for 23 times exactly, they stopped to read half a song. One of my friends who also is greatly irritated by the same repetitiveness joked “Well, we got the word in, back to the Chorus!” And what do you know, they kept singing the same chorus for over another 20. I stopped keeping count as I had better things to do, but wow Christian “praise” music can indeed induce insanity.
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1) No one is asking children to be “seen and not heard” but I am asking (along with a lot of other people) that they be well-behaved and expected to be so.
2) If you are the pastor’s wife, get help from other mothers in the church. There is simply no excuse to let children disrupt the entire sermon for your husband and everyone else because you won’t ask for help. There are plenty of older women who’ve been through this before. ASK.
3) I never said that *I* personally stared daggers, although I have on occasion done so to those who simply refuse to practice common courtesy. But, when people refuse to be polite, what other recourse do you have?
4) Jesus let the little children come unto Him, but I doubt He was advocating letting them run all over, misbehave, scream or cry through His lessons, or any other thing that some parents seem to think is just fine for their little Johnny or Betsy to be allowed to do now-a-days. God is a God of order. It is only in recent memory that parents in general (as opposed to the exception) think their little darlings should be allowed to do anything and everything they want to do with no hint of a “no” or anything else.
5) My children went to Sunday School, and they ALL learned very well how to sit through a church service and be polite anyway. Sometimes they’d ask to come to church instead, and we’d let them, but with expectations of appropriate behavior.
How did we get good behavior? Firstly, I expected it, and they knew it. Secondly, we often took them places from very young, and taught them consistently how NOT to cry, scream, throw tantrums, hang on someone’s chair or kick someone’s chair.
In my church, children join the church services at the end of 5th grade, when (hopefully) they know how to behave. No one will say anything if they come in earlier, though. But, to imagine that they can only learn by being allowed to be bad is simply untrue.
They aren’t getting much of anything out of a sermon at the younger ages. They are bored and tired. So, I see nothing wrong with a good Sunday School. (Good, being the operative word there.) And, babies and toddlers for certain aren’t getting anything out of the sermon, so they really ought to be in the nursery. Church then becomes a fun time for them and a break for mom and a place where other people’s needs are put first.
It just never ceases to amaze me that people think that just because children are children it is okay for them to be brats, or that everyone else’s needs should be not be met in order to keep the children happy.
Courtesy is learned young when it is *expected* and *required.*
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And, of course, I’ve been the embarrassed mom with the crying baby or child in a melt-down before. It happens.
But, I was KIND and carried my child outside to deal with their problem so that OTHERS could enjoy the sermon.
We are supposed to care about other people. We teach our children nothing good when we always place them at the center of everything and expect everyone else to bow to their needs.
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By the way, I agree it is much easier to skip church and very rarely do I actually hear anything in church. But I do need to go and the children need to go. They learn a lot.
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Tammy, my brothers and I were most definitely not brats. Even though we were incapable of sitting still for any period longer than ten minutes, even in school where we drove our teachers to the limit of their patience, we were usually the favorites of said teachers as well as Sunday school teachers. We just happened to learn math, history, and/or Bible lessons when movement was involved.
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Actually, Rom116, I wasn’t thinking about you at all when I wrote what I did.
Also, I’ve repeatedly said that I don’t consider wiggling to be a problem. NOISE and kicking other people’s seats…yes. Wiggling? No.
Surprisingly (to those who’d really like to categorize me as a curmudgeon), I was the teacher all the ADHD parents wanted their boys (in particular) to have, because I have quite a high tolerance level for quiet wiggling, and even allowed kids to hold small balls or rubber bands to keep them occupied while I was teaching.
That, plus the fact that my classroom had lots of interesting activities to engage them, meant that ADHD kids did very well in my room and only one of the six I had one year stayed on his medication.
But, there is a difference between a child who needs to wiggle and one that is allowed to behave in a way that doesn’t care about anyone else and their needs.
Your parents, Rom116, sound as if they most certainly DID care and that they took you out when you were just too rambunctious.
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Tammy, as a child who was raised in church (not nursery and not children’s church) and a member of a family in which at least some of my siblings have followed the same policy, I’ve always intended to keep my own children in the service, and have followed the questions of why or why not with interest.
If you’re going to say a baby “doesn’t get anything out of” the sermon, on some level that’s true of an awful lot of the baby’s life. He doesn’t necessarily get anything out of hearing his grandpa’s long war stories either, for example. But if a family involves a child in all of daily life EXCEPT church, I think it sends the wrong message. I once saw a list of what very young children do get out of church, and I found it fascinating. (They begin to learn the words of the faith by hearing them repeated–our songs, the Scriptures, the litury. They are in the church community and feel the love of the community; they feel that they belong. There were several others, and I don’t remember them. But one I found really wonderful: They see their father worship. Their father is their hero, the biggest man they can imagine, and it’s valuable beyond words to begin to see that Father bows to God.)
And yes, I know I don’t have kids myself. But I did do it successfully for about seven Sundays with foster kids, and my sister has done it with five children (as have some of my brothers too, I think), and of course my parents did it with us. It is possible to raise children who are in the service from the very littlest ages and who grow up loving church . . . in fact, my own question would be whether the opposite is true. Can children reared with the idea that church is too boring for children learn to love the body in the same way those of us raised among it can? I’ve actually seen far less success among children reared in Christian homes who were children’s church kids, though that is anecdotal.
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I dislike repetitive choruses too. My one consolation is that only the best music survives the passing of time. Someone once gave our family a book of Victorian carols. Most of them I had never heard and they were extremely long and boring. The few familiar ones, like It Came Upon A Midnight Clear, were set to unfamiliar tunes that were practically un-playable and un-singable. Someday the choruses will be old and only the good ones, like “As the Deer”, will be sung:)
Tammy, I retract the last sentence of my post @ 28. It doesn’t say in print what I was trying to express in thought. I’m still working on using the written word. Please be patient as I practice:)
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Cheryl,
A good children’s program can provide the love of the church, and interesting stories, and great songs, and lots of activities that enrich a child’s experience of church and make them want to be there.
Naturally, a poor one can do the opposite.
Babies have lots and lots and lots of time to be with mom and dad and grandma and grandpa. I honestly don’t think that 1 hour and 1/2 is going to damage their relationship by being with someone else. In fact, it can enrich it. They can learn to love church “aunties” who work in the nursery, or older girls in the church who help in the nursery (my 11 year old daughter LOVES to work in the nursery and play with the toddlers there. She considers it a ministry.)
While my church doesn’t do it, I like the mixture of Rom116’s church (and others I’ve heard of), where the kids come in for the singing, and then go and get their own activity or lesson directed to them for the remainder of the sermon.
Honestly, would you expect a child to sit in a college classroom and get the lecture there with the adults? Either the pastor has to really dumb his sermons down, or the kids aren’t picking up as much as they’d get in a lesson directed to them and their developmental levels.
I would never put my kids in a college classroom (well…now that my one is a teen, I might), but rather would put them into the appropriate grade-level for them.
Not only would they get the joy of really understanding the lesson, but they’d also get the chance to make friends in the church, maybe life-long friends, who are Christian and who are hopefully being reared with the same worldview.
I do prefer that teens start to attend with their parents. My church encourages this by not having Sunday School after 5th grade. They do have a Youth Group, but on another night, so that the teens can attend with their parents.
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Phos,
Even when the choruses aren’t written to be repetitive, it just grates on me that some song leaders will repeat the last verse or the last line or some other part of the song over and over again.
Although the 40 times or more someone mentioned above really takes the cake!!
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In other words, what makes it a given that children’s programs aren’t part of the Church? Well-run ones should certainly be part of it.
And, why is it that a family must be together for every minute of their lives? Don’t they ever worship at home or sing together or read the Bible except at church?
It’s an hour and a half (at most churches). Kids can’t be separated from their parents for that small amount of time?
I’m not really against parents bringing their kids into the sermon if they expect and teach their kids to behave. But, it seems a bit on the strange side to say that a child needs to be with their parents in the pew listening to something way above their head rather than singing “Jesus Loves Me” and “This Little Light of Mine” and hearing all the good Bible stories and doing Sword Drills (looking up Bible verses quickly) and making friends and doing Christian crafts.
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My favorite memories of church when I was young involve some great Sunday School teachers, memorizing lots of verses (and getting to “buy” things in a store with my tickets), being in the Christmas program (run through the Sunday School), felt cut-out stories, singing some of my favorite (still) “kids’” hymns, and becoming good friends with some of the other girls (one of whom I stayed friends with into my teens and we saw “Star Wars”–the original–together when it first came out.)
We also learned how to sign (ASL) “Jesus Loves Me” which I still remember, and which I thought was very cool.
When I started attending regular church, I read my “Living Bible” cover-to-cover (not that that is a bad thing!) because I just didn’t find the sermons interesting. I didn’t start paying attention to the sermons until I was late middle school.
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Tammy, I’m definitely not saying children can never be separated from their parents for 90 minutes–I am saying I believe this is the wrong 90 minutes to choose. We wouldn’t hire a babysitter every time we sit down to eat a meal together, yet many parents do so for every church service, and give their kids the idea that church is something to avoid. If nothing else, you wouldn’t sit down for dinner and send your kids into another room to be fed cupcakes instead and expect them to develop a “taste” for adult food. (I had a 25-year-old roommate who still ate mostly chicken nuggets and never ate ANY veggies unless you count french fries.)
The biblical pattern, and the pattern in church history, has always been for families to worship together. Children’s church is a very new idea. And with the percentage of churched young people who now leave the church in young adulthood, I’d say it’s highly questionable that our “new ideas” for teaching children are actually working. (In other words, whether you rely on theology or on actual results, I think the evidence is on the side of those who keep children in church–even if it is counter-intuitive.)
I have also had many years of experience in working with children’s programs at many different churches, and I think most parents would be surprised at how bad they tend to be. The reality is that most church children do not like most Sunday school programs, so even on that standard, keeping families together at least doesn’t lose points, and it may gain some.
Young children can pick up more of the sermon than we think; I could tell some stories from my own family as examples, but I’ll leave it with the statement that they can.
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They do indeed, Cheryl. A while ago, I sat in church beside a small male relative of mine. He wiggled and squirmed. He swung his legs (he was barred from kicking the pew). He laid down on the pew. He bent over and hung his head down to his feet. In the middle of the long sermon, the pastor asked a rhetorical question: “What could he do?” The laddie beside me, straightened up; looked at me in bewildered innocence; and said, loud enough for the whole church to hear, “I don’t know!”
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Funny, Phos!
I was actually thinking of some times from my own life when I was really little (four or so), plus some children whose mother comforted them when their house burned down by reminding them of what the pastor had been preaching on–the sovereignty of God. They had absorbed enough through the preaching and discussion of it afterward that they “got it” and were comforted by a simple reminder when they began to panic on overhearing that their house had just burned down. (The oldest child was six or seven, the next one two years younger, and both of them were panicked by the news and calmed by the reminder that God is sovereign in this too.) I wouldn’t trade such opportunities for anything in the world, and thus wouldn’t attend a church that didn’t welcome my children (if I had any), and wouldn’t want to attend a church that didn’t welcome children even though I don’t. We need our children, and they need us.
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On a side note from the post, we started attending a church somewhere. I think it was in Germany but may have been in the States somewhere. Anyway, when we walked in, we were informed children were not allowed and were to go to the nursery across town. We left with our three small children and did not look for the nursery.
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Phos, 42, funny!
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#24 Hopesprings, I agree. And neither was it the point of my first comment. :-/
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Tammy, I’m sorry I wasn’t here to address your first comment to my first post — I wasn’t at all talking about children who are crying, talking loud, and crawling around. We, too, expect our kids to be quiet and non-distracting in church; if they get loud or start crying about something, we take them out. And the young mother I referred to does the same with her kids. But even when quiet in church, kids move around a little bit and whisper questions, etc. more than adults do — and this is FINE; this is what I was referring to. This is what the young mother’s children do, and it’s NOT distracting — but she gets stressed out because she feels like they are.
But the point was, just COME. Don’t stay away. Being at the service (as Tony spoke about) is a good thing. Even if a young mom doesn’t “get anything” out of the service, in reality she does, just by being there. This is what Fr. Stephen talked about in the blog post I linked.
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Juliana, I understand that and meant no offense toward your post. I should have been more specific. I was addressing the fact that this thread became a “How Your Children Should Behave in Church” manual.
But since it has, I will join in. Regarding your post, it’s sometimes easy to become discouraged when you seem to spend more time outside the service than inside. And like KBells said, it takes time to work with your kids to be quiet, content, and even to learn to be a part of the service. Kids aren’t little robots and become bored (just like adults do) if there’s nothing to engage their attention.
I also believe that older moms should take younger moms under their wings and help them along. And I agree with you, if we believe that when we gather Jesus is “in our midst”, then there is benefit to be there.
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#47
Agreed.
This is part of the problem when we get into discussing parenting.
We all get a little touchy and the nuances are lost. Honestly, I’m fine with most parents, most kids in service, and most comments here.
The whole post just reminded me of the parents (who seem to be growing in numbers) who truly don’t care that their kids behave in an annoying way, aren’t teaching them to behave better or how to behave, and expect everyone else to just adapt to their kids rather than the other way round.
I know enough about kids and their development (both as a Mom and as a certified teacher of many years’ experience) to know that kids need a certain degree of tolerance and time for learning. I expect a certain amount of wiggle, a certain amount of drawing/coloring/other quiet activity vs. paying real attention, and a (very) occasional outright difficulty in church.
But, I still expect that this behavior will be addressed, that kids will be removed when necessary, and that the serious problems will be occasional rather than regular. And, I also expect that parents will actually care about the rest of the people in the service enough to be on top of such things.
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Cheryl,
I’m going to only partly agree with you. I know that many children’s programs are poor. But, that is fixable. And, I disagree that children get very much from regular church. I’ve seen enough children in my church to know that most draw, color, sleep, read a book, play quite games (like hangman), and so on. They do not understand the lesson, nor are they paying any attention to it except for rare moments.
As for the youngest children, they get nothing but bored in most cases. As is to be expected. Again, it is like saying that a 2 year old needs to attend a college class because she MIGHT pick up something useful, rather than attend a preschool class where she will learn her letters, her numbers and other things that are exactly appropriate for her age level.
I do believe that teens should be in regular church. (And, by teens, I mean 11 and up.) Not only can they understand, but that is when the programs tend to get the most questionable (in an attempt to appeal to teens, the programs often just get wild and aren’t really teaching about Christ at all.)
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In other words, the very minor benefit that a 2-year old gets from attending church for 90 minutes is offset by the the fact that her parent is distracted, unable to worship well, and doesn’t get a break. It is also offset by the damage it does to the other parishioners around the child who are either distracted by how cute she is, or who are distracted because she becomes bored and noisy.
And, just when are these kids going to get all the great Bible stories, songs, games, crafts, and time with other church-going kids?
In a good program (and yes, there are some because I’ve not only been IN them, but I’ve taught in them), kids learn a ton in that 90 minutes that they just don’t get in regular church.
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Oh, and if you’ll read the *Little House on the Prairie* books, you’ll see that Sunday School for the kids is not a new development. My grandmother went to Sunday School (and she came across the US in a covered wagon).
The new phenomena of losing most of our kids cannot be tied to Sunday School. There is some concern it is tied to Youth Groups, but I think there is a lot more to it than that.
But, it certainly can’t be directed tied to kids not attending church with their parents.
Sunday School and Children’s Church were developed because of PROBLEMS that people saw with kids attending church with their parents.
Naturally, some parents prefer one or the other. But Sunday School has been around way too long for the flight from church we’re seeing now-a-days to be laid at its feet.
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Hopesprings, I was agreeing with you! I was sort of disappointed to see that the point of Tony’s blog post was passed over as well, and that a discussion about the behavior of children in church developed instead. I may have played a role in that with the first comment, but the point of my comment was not the behavior of children in church either, even though I mentioned it (as an example for the real point). Oh, well!
Tammy, I couldn’t agree less with #51. But we probably attend different kinds of churches, which might explain it (and I realize that because of this there will be different practices; I’m not judging or questioning that). In our Sunday service, because we are there mainly to receive the Eucharist (which we believe to be the real body and blood of Christ), the kids remain in the service for the most part. As described above, of course we might have to leave for some moments to take care of fussiness or what-not, but the standing practice is for everyone to be in the Divine Liturgy together.
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Tammy, I think your church experience is different from mine in one particular. In nearly all churches I have been in, there is Sunday school for all ages (where kids get age-graded classes) followed by church (which sometimes offers a children’s church option and sometimes doesn’t; all the churches I have attended have offered nursery up to age four or so). So a family can readily do both if they think the age-graded classes are essential to child development.
Sunday school goes back to the late nineteenth century; D. L. Moody was one of its founders. The original idea was to teach children who weren’t in school during the week basic reading skills, and in a Christian environment. It wasn’t an alternative to being in church for the parents. (Oh, and the Little House books–there is some question as to how much the story line of their actual lives was revised. The fact that Sunday school appeared in the books is no proof they actually had Sunday school for children in that era, although I think stuff like that was generally accurate.)
But I never said Sunday school was very recent; I said children’s church was. I don’t know exactly when it started, but I’m fairly sure it was this side of 1950, possibly in the sixties or seventies. I’m halfway of the mind (though I might be wrong) that it was a really new idea when I was the “right age” to attend in the early seventies and that it wasn’t yet being done when my older brothers were that age. (I never did attend.) And even if it’s sixty or even seventy years old, in the span of two thousand years of church history that is a very short time frame, and so is Sunday school’s history.
BTW, we never were allowed to color or do anything but listen. Boys sometimes listen better when they’re also doing something else, and I do think it’s OK to allow quiet activity. (I brought out coloring books for my girls during the sermon.) I think some level of listening and participation should be expected.
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Again, my grandmother did Sunday School, and that was well before D.L. Moody. Just sayin’.
Since I really loved Sunday School, and since I learned a lot from it, I suppose that I have a soft spot for it. I can’t imagine missing out on all the neat things we did in order to sit in church.
Children’s church never excited me nearly as much, but I have nothing against it if done well.
Nursery is best for the itty-bitties, IMO.
Nevertheless, I’m fine with parents who bring their kids into regular church, so long as they are courteous.
My daughter went through a phase where she came to regular church for a whole year due to her own choice, because her Sunday School class had all boys and she didn’t like being the only girl.
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Now, my daughter is on a kick to help in the nursery. First, she leads “Quest” which is basically worship/singing in our version of Children’s Church. Then, she goes and helps in the nursery and plays with the toddlers and sings with them.
But, since we homeschool, and we do Bible a lot during the week, I’m not too worried about her missing church. (A little, but not excessively, since she is so enjoying her “ministry.”)
She is old enough to attend regular church and understand. So, I’m a little torn.
My sons have been attending regular church for years.
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There are churches where Sunday School is not an option. Nor is nursery. When I take my children out, I take them out. They lie down on the floor somewhere and take a nap. My idea is to make it more interesting to be in church where they can see and hear people. My thought is that they are learning to sit quietly for half an hour or so. It is not required that they be absolutely quiet during the singing. My children have plenty of time to play and wiggle and squirm and torment, they have plenty of time to hear Bible stories and learn songs. This is the hour each week that I want them to learn to sit quietly with the fellowship of believers. One hour per week is really not that hard for a two small child. Ever see one watching TV? They can sit still for that! But not in this house.
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Oh, and we were just told that, due to insurance issues, none of our older at home children are allowed to help with the child care of the little ones.
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Tammy, re your grandmother: I’m used to making a mental adjustment where when someone my age says “grandmother,” I picture the grandmother being nearer the age of my parents (born in 1918 and 1925). And my own (maternal) grandfather was born in 1868, and thus well within the era of D. L. Moody (who died a few days before the turn of the twentieth century)–I don’t know birth years of my other grandparents. But I assumed you were about my age and your grandparents were born later than mine and not earlier.
I know Moody gets credit for being one of the first to do Sunday school, but the year of the actual first Sunday school is something I don’t remember. (I think Laura Ingalls’ Sunday school could well have been a copy of Moody’s, as far as timing, if the idea spread that quickly, even if he was the very first to do it. She was born about the same time my grandfather was born, I believe.)
But again, I did grow up in Sunday school as well as church (though with less fond memories than you have–since I was taught the Bible at home, I found age-graded Sunday school classes hopelessly boring, review that was well “beneath” my level, like a ninth-grader sitting in on a second-grade math class–by fourth grade I was sitting in on adult classes and happy with Sunday school again). I absolutely loved VBS in the summer; we attended it at a church that did it very well. (I also went to summer camp for a week roughly every other year of my childhood.)
From a spiritual perspective, coloring and pasting take-home papers is less important than corporate worship. And children who are in the service DO get to participate in singing, too–at least the churches I have been a part of have always included singing as part of corporate worship. And if the church does potlucks and picnics, and maybe even has families getting together at one another’s homes, there are plenty of opportunities for children to interact with other children without being taken out of corporate worship to do so. (And again, I would say that socializing with other children is less important than corporate worship, if one must choose, just as I would say that for adults. I love fellowshiping with other adults at church, but I’d never go only to the social activities and skip the worship service, unless I happened to be too sick for church that week or something like that.)
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Oh, BTW, in spite of our church not having children’s church (though we do have Sunday school), our children know one another very well. They hang out at each other’s houses, hang out together before and after church, and so forth. Many of them have grown up together and been together for many years. Some of them sit with each other’s families during church. There are lots of ways for them to interact without children’s church.
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Our church is also structured with SS (adult & children) being held directly after the regular worship service, so the children get both experiences.
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Cheryl,
I simply disagree. Again, I think it is like sending a child to a college class, instead of something age appropriate. I think it damages parents (who don’t get a break to really worship themselves) and other parishioners when the kids are poorly behaved. However, again, if someone wants to do that, I’m okay with so long as the children are well-behaved.
My grandmother was born in 1915. It is still way too old for Sunday School to have resulted in the problems in retention we are seeing now.
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And, children under 4 really do belong somewhere else, IMO. Especially babies.
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Tammy,
Fair enough that you disagree.
I am talking about children’s church and not Sunday school. (Googling it, I can only find one site that mentions its beginning, and that is suggesting it began in one church in the 1950’s and that apparently it really got started in the 1960’s–but no proof is offered. That about matches what I had thought. I have a family member who was a children’s pastor, working in children’s church, for quite a few years, so I have a little sense of its history.)
To say that babies must be in the nursery is to say that mothers must entrust their infants to someone else or they (the mothers) should not come to church themselves. I know you aren’t saying that, but no church should give parents the impression that they aren’t allowed to make this decision for themselves. (I have family members who left a church over this issue. I would have too, if I had children, and possibly I would have anyway.) Particularly under the age of six months or whenever the child becomes mobile, his being in church with his mother usually makes the most sense.
I think it is fair for you to choose a church that offers a children’s church, if you want one. But parents must be free to have their children in the service, if they choose, or the church is on very dangerous ground spiritually (the same as if they choose to refuse entry to old people, black people, or retarded people). Refusing entry to church should be on grounds of church discipline only.
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That leaves me out. With the addition of having children that cannot be put in other peoples’ care. Seems like kind of a limiting thing. I understand the different styles of churches but by not wanting any children under the age of four in the service, it totally disqualifies people like me from attending.
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Great post Tony.
Now that our kids are grown and out of the house I love watching parents struggling with squirmy kids. Little freckle faced hellions and sassy sisters are so cute now. Inwardly I am filled with a big sigh of relief. We love our kids incredibly, but parenting sure was a lot of work. Now we just walk around with big smiles observing young parents struggles with fullness of joy and peace!
Like Tammy, we love seeing skillful parents doing a good job. Many parents don’t. But we never mind the noise. It only makes our grins wider.
As for the intolerance of pastors and congregation what would Jesus say? When Jesus preached to the crowds were all the kids quiet? Or the parents? They certainly weren’t as he hung on the cross, but he spoke to them kindly there too.
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So long as church services remain primarily didactic in orientation, children really don’t have any place there– and we, as parents, ought not press them to be there. Send ‘em to childrens’ programs. Where the Church manifests itself in worship of God and, when appropriate, reception of the Holy Mysteries, THAT is exactly where both we and our children belong. Parents considerate of others will remove their children when they become unruly, but children, moreso than we adults, ought be able to draw near to the Chalice with faith and love. Let us not neglect their spiritual feeding.
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And . . . perhaps it’s not you dragging your children but they who are dragging you. Thank God for those little innocent ones. They bring us all to the Throne of God.
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I relize that nobody might read this, but here goes. . .
When I first read Tony’s post, I had several thoughts about people who go to church only for the sake of their children.
1. They do not have a clear understanding of what church is.
2. They do not have a clear understanding of godly parenting.
3. They might be going to the wrong church.
A church service is not something that you take your kids to because somehow it will magically improve their lives or make them better people. The church is the family of God. It is where Christians worship together, participate in fellowship with each other, and learn from God’s word. It is for every Christian. It is a blessing to go. If you go only for the kids’ sake, then they have the right to say that you should stop going. “If you’re doing this for me, then don’t do it anymore, because I don’t want to go.”
Parents are not supposed to send their kids to church. Parents are supposed to set a godly example for their children. Parents should go to church because it is commanded by God and is a blessing for them. The kids will have no excuse not to go, if it is simply the family’s practice to do it. If the parents go joyfully, then the kids are more likely to follow suit.
If church is a drag, if it is not a blessing, then maybe you are going to the wrong church. I cannot wait to go to church every Sunday to worship with my brothers and sisters, to share their burdens in prayer, to give and receive encouraging words, and to learn God’s word. Find a vibrant church that you are excited to go to, and your kids probably will enjoy going, too. Beyond that, find a church where you can have a vital ministry. It shouldn’t be something you just attend but something that you are a part of. This is Christianity 101. It is not about being a “good Christian” or a “bad Christian.” It’s about being a Christian, period.
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I like the idea of Children’s Church.
I think it is a great thing for young boys who cannot or will not sit still. The up and down jumping and hand-gesture cheerleading-esque activities? Good up to a point I spoze. But eventually little boys will see that as way too girly even if in doing all that they internalize solid Gospel concepts.
Children’s church curricula is a challenge. The folks at Willow Creek have done a good job with it. As have for that matter our wonderful folks at shandon dot org
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Kyle, I read your post and you make some good points. I don’t mean to sound like Tony’s interpreter, but I don’t think he’s implying that he goes to church only for his kids. I think he was saying that on those days where he doesn’t feel like going to church, he goes, because he takes the welfare of his kids into consideration.
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Also, my understanding of church is that it isn’t something you go to. The church is God’s people, not a place. Just the way I see it.
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Kyle A,
I, too, rejoice in the fellowship of believers. “I was glad when they said, ‘let us go into the house of the Lord’.” However, in this past year it has been more a case of me going to church and then going out to babysit my youngest three more often than not. We attend a wonderful church, but there is not a Sunday school for little ones, though there is for my older children. In fact one of the older boys attends adult SS, another attends the other adult SS (for new Christians) and the rest attend with my wonderful friend who fully understands the need to keep these children on a very clear path and she communicates to me things that others would say “that is just kid behavior and I am not going to tell on him” so things don’t snowball out of control for them. The younger ones, though one time one older woman sat with them and read to them for the hour (exactly what they enjoy, by the way!), that has not been repeated and we do not push it. It is not easy to read to three of such high energy, especially when you think that you should be able to understand their speech and you can’t. Anyway, due to that, I know I love getting together with the believers, but it is a struggle. Because I know I will not actually be able to be with them.
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Re: #42, once a few months ago, when the senior pastor was preaching he said the word “movies”, and my 3 year old son said, “movies? I love movies!” So, obviously he’s hearing some things.
Re: children being “brats”, I do regularly get comments on how well-behaved my children are. And, when I need help, I get it. Obviously, my kids have their moments, and some Sunday mornings are worse than others. However, I think it’s silly to take my 1 1/2 year old out just because she repeatedly says, “it’s Daddy!”, because she sees and hears him up front, and she doesn’t know how to speak quietly. And a 2 minute outburst at the beginning of the sermon from my 3 1/2 yr old that results in a quiet child for nearly the rest of the service does not warrant taking the kid out, IMO. Going in and out is more of a disruption that quickly dealing with it in the pew, I think. And for my kids, that would result in a bigger fit, because they want to be in the service.
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Cheryl,
I thought I was very clear that — while I prefer the little ones to be in the nursery, I was fine with a parent’s decision to bring them into service so long as the parent also took responsibility to make sure that their were generally well-behaved.
Becky, I’m sorry, but you sound as if you are putting your kids and their desires ahead of other people’s needs and feelings in the church. That may not be the case, but that is what it sounds like you are saying. “My kids want to be in service. They want to yell out to daddy for 2 minutes. Sitting somewhere else (on the pew edge) or denying my kids what they want would be unacceptable to me. I don’t care if it is a disruption to everyone else in the church or that it distracts my husband, or that it keeps other people from worshiping.” That’s what I’m hearing.
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I like the way you put it Xion. Yes, I do like to see skillful parents do a nice job with their kids. And, I never hold their kids’ behavior against them in such cases. They are working on it.
I DO hold it against parents who simply allow their children’s poor behavior to continue throughout the whole service, and then week after week after week after that.
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Honestly, I understand Tony’s point of view. Sometimes, we too go to church “for the kids.” There are Sunday mornings where I am so tired, and I don’t have anything clean to wear, and I dread the “getting ready” part of going so much, that I would prefer to stay home. But, I think to myself, “What will this teach my kids? Will it teach them that I can get up for anything else, but not church? Will it teach them that God is not as important as other things?” And, I usually decide that we ought to go.
So, I guess I’m agreeing with Hopesprings in #71. Although, I do understand your point too, Kyle.
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Tammy, I said you weren’t saying kids shouldn’t be allowed in church. I was pointing out that some churches do say that, and they’re wrong.
Becky, many parents of young children make it work by practicing at home. The child has a half hour each day in which he is expected to sit and be quiet with a book–not a punishment, but an expectation and practice. The idea that they will have a tantrum if you leave may mean that you need to leave sometimes and let them see you are in charge. I’m sure there is somebody in your church who would willingly sit with your family, if asked, so that you can take out one or two children when they need it and children will learn that disruption means having to leave for a few minutes. But practicing church skills at home might make things a lot easier for you and others on Sunday.
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Tammy – In the case of ill-behaved children whose parents don’t correct them, I wonder if it would work (or be accepted) for another woman to kindly, gently, sweetly offer to take the kid/s out for a bit, or deliver them to the children’s program (if there is one).
Saying something along the line of “I see little Wilhelm is acting up a bit. Why don’t I take him out for a little while [or...take him down to children's church], so he doesn’t distract you?”
Maybe then the parents would get the hint? Or if they don’t get the hint, at least little Wilhelm won’t be around to cause a ruckus.
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I realize we’ve gotten completely off topic, so let me first say I appreciate the article for what it was intended… regardless of the struggle to get to church, we are definitely blessed when we do.
As for the assertions of those who insist children and babies get little to nothing out of being in church, I strongly disagree. I grew up in a church with no Sunday School. We were expected to be quiet in services and those who needed it were taken out, so that’s not my issue here. We were allowed to color, write, play silently with small toys, have small quiet treats, so you’d think we missed out and got nothing, right? Wrong. Children are learning every moment… think of the songs they know that YOU were playing on the radio, the commercial jingles on tv, the words and topics they pick up, etc.
When I grew up I began attending a different church where most of the adults there went to Sunday School as children. At Bible Studies I was often the only one who knew the answers to the study questions… I knew where to find the Scriptures… I understood the deeper aspects of it. I don’t remember learning many of those things, so it didn’t all occur when I was older, and I wasn’t taught them at home. So where did I gain that knowledge and insight? It was going into my little head from babyhood. I may not have understood it then, but later in life it came back to me when I needed it.
It is so much easier to learn things as a child than as an adult, such as memorizing Scripture, languages, etc. So I firmly believe that children should be hearing fully adult teaching in churches as well as other arenas of life. They pick up far more than you’d ever dream. And having babies in church starts them out from the beginning of learning to sit quietly at times in life… start then, and it can be a lot easier than when they’re older since they’re used to it! And along with those who stated that families worshipping together is a good example for the children, and an excellent atmosphere for those children right along with their parents… absolutely!
Now as a disclaimer… many churches of today fully understand the dismal lack of prior generations’s of Sunday Schools and have excellent teaching programs for Sunday School, and I am NOT criticizing anyone who chooses to send their children (frankly, I think a good balance of both would be excellent… such as when kids join the family in church one week, and parents get a break and fully can listen the next!)
Each family has to decide for themselves, and YES, be respectful of others in church by attending to your children as needed!
But I simply had to chime in on the statements of children getting little out of church just because they don’t LOOK like they’re paying attention… our minds are brilliantly created, and we pick up far much more than it appears. I’m so thankful I was brought up IN church. I was given the firm foundations of faith… all of it, not only child-friendly versions. I feel it’s critical in these days where the world is out to destroy it in our children long before they’re old enough to know the difference. Blessings on all parents raising children in today’s world!
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#79
I actually tried that once. The mom claimed that her child was doing just fine. (This, despite the fact that he’d been screaming, whining, hitting her, wiggling, and generally being horrible through the entire sermon.)
I almost used your exact words. I was really nice about it. She was simply very blind to how her child was behaving, I guess.
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Summer,
I’m not saying (or I didn’t mean to say) that kids learn NOTHING from being in church, simply that they will learn more and better in a WELL RUN Sunday School.
Kids can certainly pick up something sitting in a college classroom, but that doesn’t mean they won’t do better in a elementary school in age-appropriate settings.
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Now, if we started to talk about finding a well-run Sunday School, we could probably spend hours, because I think they are often very difficult to find!
And, I like that you (Summer) are thinking out of the box on the issue (the take turns thing). I think we need some thinking out of the box on the issue.
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