Self-hating evangelicals
I’m glad to be of Jewish ancestry. I’m generally supportive of Israel and am still surprised to encounter left-wing Jews who ally with anti-Israeli Muslims. There’s a name for such folks: Self-hating Jews. Why did Jewish comedienne Roseanne Barr call Israel “a Nazi state”? Emory University professor Sander Gilman, author of Jewish Self-Hatred (1986), notes, “One of the most recent forms of Jewish self-hatred is the virulent opposition to the existence of the State of Israel.”
My friend Michael Horowitz has called evangelicals “the new Jews” in terms of facing discrimination and even loathing in some academic and other circles. If so, I’d like to suggest—after reading Rob Bell and others—that we should start referring to evangelical self-hatred. Among the self-haters are those who display virulent opposition to the existence of churches that are not emergent, or don’t meet in a house, or are not radically redistributionist, or are not something other than standard.
Bell’s best-seller, Love Wins, bashes the church straw men he creates. He repeatedly claims that many churches declare, “Only a select few go to heaven.” Maybe he’s thinking of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I’ve been in more than 100 churches and have repeatedly heard the offer of the gospel to all and the hopeful expectation that heaven contains many mansions that will be filled.
(I don’t know how many people go to hell—it would be great if it’s only a select few—but I do know that Osama bin Laden belongs there, unless God changed his heart while he was hiding out. If bin Laden’s not there, God is showing no regard for the mass murderer’s thousands of victims.)
Bell quotes the most outlandish things as if they’re typical. He quotes one woman saying, “My father raped me while reciting the Lord’s Prayer.” Is that what evangelicals do? Why bring up, in the first chapter, such a profane rarity? I suppose evangelical self-hatred sells books, but more than money is involved: It seems to stem from how some evangelicals were brought up. Maybe I’m immune to it because I didn’t become a Christian until I was 26—so I’m even fond of Christmas carols.
Do cures for evangelical self-hatred exist? Strong church worship and preaching is key. Solid study of what compassionate Christians have contributed to the world, and increased reporting of what evangelicals are doing now, can help as well. We’re trying to do that in WORLD. For now, here’s Kevin DeYoung’s detailed critique of Rob Bell’s book. It says what I’d like to say but says it better.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top76 Comments to “Self-hating evangelicals”
I with you completely except for the paragraph in parentesies (sp?). We worship a loving God who could forgive even a bin Laden.
A friend and I were talking about our inclination to be haunted by the errors of our life rather than the victories and she suggested the reason may be because the errors stand out more in our mind because they’re anomalies.
(For example, I’m much more likely to remember the morning I ate eggs benedict, than all the days I ate oatmeal.)
For that reason, the truly awful things the church has done often overshadows all the good the rest of the time. Unfair for sure, and perhaps a sign that we don’t reflect enough on the goodness of the Lord in our lives.
Thanks for the critique. I really wasn’t interested in reading this book.
Report comment to moderator
It could be self loathing on Bell’s part, but in other cases it can be a genuine criticism. The following prayer comes to mind:
Some of the nastiest people you will ever meet are fundamentalist Christians with sewn on smiles and syrupy voices like the spider to the fly. Books like What’s so Amazing about Grace or “Soul Survivor: How My Faith Survived the Church by Phil Yancey were real eye openers for me regarding how far fundamentalist churches have forgotten the meaning of Grace.
My wife and I are really struggling now to find a church that preaches the Bible but without all the legalism. Non-legalistic churches tend to be nicer but the sermons are generally very shallow with stories that rarely mention scripture.
Maybe that is just the state of churches in our area. Or maybe its the state of our own hearts. Maybe we’re too picky. We’ve tried to just go and resign ourselves to the inevitable mediocrity but have run into road blocks.
In one case a pastor asked us not to come because he objected to people leaving one church and going to another. Apparently he was superstitious about people leaving his own. Apparently I also intimidate some pastors with my Bible knowledge. So the only way we can go to church is to attend and never say anything meaningful. At this point I feel no church would have us. Maybe the problem is us and we should change something, but I don’t know what.
Report comment to moderator
Xion: It sounds like you should organize a team and start a new church!
Report comment to moderator
Xion, may I suggest the Anlican in the USA church to you. You can look up the Dioceses of the Holy Spirit which is located in Virginia and find a church associated with them or somehow find one in your area. I grew up in an Independent Methodist Church School which was very legalistic. They banged on the pulpit every Wednesday in Chapel and had me completely convinced their was no hope for me. Once as an adult I went back on the campus and felt an overwhelming oppression. I couldn’t get away fast enough, but I do have some lingering fundamentalism.
I found love and acceptance and especially a God who loved me in the Episcopal church when I was 14. I have shared that I left the church for a while and eventually found my way back. The Episcopal Church in the USA has become a charicature of a church. I have found the balance in the Anglican church.
Report comment to moderator
Xion – my advice is to find a good Bible-believing church, and don’t say anything meaningful. You’re not obligated to say anything meaningful in church; your obligation is to worship God. Keeping one’s mouth shut actually aids in worship, at least that’s what I have found in my own life, since one of my besetting sins is the tendency to run my mouth when I should shut up. I think in the end, God wants many of us to just shut up.
Report comment to moderator
Marvin – I also was raised Jewish and found my Messiah in my mid-20s, so I too love Christmas carols. As for self-hating Jews, I have definitely noticed the trend ever since Woody Allen brought it to my attention during my formative years. There is a fine distinction, though, between self-hating Jews and left-wing Jews whose support for Israel is either luke-warm or non-exitent. As regards the latter group, the reason is that they are much more interested in the success of the left-wing agenda in North America, than they are in the survival of Israel.
Self-hating Evangelicals are another matter, although there are some similarities. Both tend to operate on straw-man images of conservatism. Also, both are more interested in promoting a leftist political agenda than in spiritual matters. Finally, both feel a need to conform, and since the dominant culture is bashing Israel and conservative Evangelicals, conformity for them (i.e., their comfort zone) is to do the same. That’s my own pseudo-psychological analysis, anyway.
P.S. I appreciate the article. It is much more honest, IMHO, than Tony’s recent one on a similar topic.
Report comment to moderator
BTW, re #6, I should mention that some of my thoughts on this topic come from experience, as well as observation, as I grew up in a left-wing Jewish household.
Report comment to moderator
Golly, I find myself shocked by #5. I have to disagree with Buzzy. No one should feel gagged by their church from saying things that are meaningful, nor does the call to worship hint that saying anything meaningful in incompatible.
Report comment to moderator
5, Buzzy
if we shut-up how do we do all the one anothers?
Report comment to moderator
Olasky nails it. And, MICHELE, the paragraph in parentheses did not hint that God is not loving nor that He was incapable of forgiving bin Laden if bin laden had fully repented. Not sure where you got that.
Report comment to moderator
Joel – my advice to Xion was based on his particular situation. I’m not suggesting a gag rule for everyone, but I thought it would be helpful if Xion knew he was under no affirmative obligation to say anything meaningful. Someone once pointed out to me that intercessory prayer warriors tend to be quite people, an observation that aligns with my experience. Also, I find the semi-fictional account helpful in Gene Edwards’ book, A Tale of three Kings: A Study in Brokenness. Perhaps Xion would benefit from it as well.
Report comment to moderator
Aardvarkjim – good question!
Report comment to moderator
The reason the straw man arguments may be difficult for Bell–not that he doesn’t use real people, just atypical–is that the most bizarre people emerge to critize him and reinforce his hypothesis.
(Saying that generally, not making a comment about Marvin)
Report comment to moderator
XION, some of the greatest people you will ever meet are fundamentalist Christians who smile through their own hardships and show courage in their conviction. And I write that without disagreeing much with your statement too. We are a mixed bag, brother–or rather, a field with wheat and chaff growing together!!!!
The resolve to find a church that preaches the Bible but without excessive legalism is one that you must never lose, XION, even if you have to go small. But keep asking yourself if you are being too pickey. That may be possible but let God give you that answer. Pray a lot.
The clueless pastor who asked you not to come because he objected to people leaving one church and going to another needs to recognize God’s capacity to lead others in ways that pastor may not expect or even prefer. And any pastor who is truly intimidated by someone with good Bible knowledge is unqualified to serve in that role. I am overjoyed when I see Bible knowledge that exceeds mine–and I get overjoyed a lot as I age (smile).
Report comment to moderator
ADIOS wrote; “The reason the straw man arguments may be difficult for Bell…”
Not sure what you mean. Bell is the one making the straw (all too easily too) and it is not fair-minded. He is apparently setting everything around him up to confirm his presumptions. A lot of us do that.
Report comment to moderator
I have been a self-hating evangelical for a while. It has taken a little while for God to show me this. I have been looking for a church to attend by visiting a few in town. In this journey God has shown me that my attitude has been the greatest barrier in being a member in his church. I have been learning slowly how to go to church to love God and love my neighbor.
That being said, I do think Rob Bell, along with many people are right in saying that something is distinctly wrong in churches in our country. His diagnosis may be far off and his approach may be more complaining than helpful, but the church is ill and ailing. Traditional or not, evangelical or not, church members do not even intend to walk as Jesus walked. (1 John 2:6) Business as usual will not change this, so people like Rob Bell are seeking something else (emerging, I guess) and are critical of what they have left behind.
For myself I have found that God leads me not into criticism or cynicism, but into obedience to and deeper reliance on himself. Neither has God called me to abandon the church or make up my own. I believe the church has many valuable and beautiful expressions of God’s goodness waiting to be revived and practiced.
It may be that the church is more full of “crowds” than disciples, but Jesus went into the crowds with his disciples. He did not hate them (although he did avoid them a number of times), but loved them and gleaned disciples from them. I hope to find some other disciples who want to “walk in the light as He is in the light.” (1 John 1:7)
God’s peace be with us.
Report comment to moderator
At ministry conferences and across the current landscape of church and ministry-related circles, I often hear theories and practicums on what non-Christians think of Christians and the church and how we can make better impressions on them. It is always presumed that the point of view of the non-Christian is somehow sacred.
I also care about what non-believers feel and think of us and I want to make better impressions wherever possible. Yet, I often come away from such discussions feeling a bit beat up as a Christian.
Report comment to moderator
Xion: My wife and I are really struggling now to find a church that preaches the Bible but without all the legalism. Non-legalistic churches tend to be nicer but the sermons are generally very shallow with stories that rarely mention scripture.
Frank: Don’t know where you live, but a church in the relatively small (yet steadily-growing) Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals might be just what you’re looking for. It’s been our church home for the last 12 years.
Report comment to moderator
I’m unaware on a personal level of “Self-hating evangelicals,” so I have to view this topic theoretically. And I cannot recommend any denomination, because I find that few individual congregations fit any label I try to slap onto the denomination to which they belong.
I read “Pagan Christianity” and wondered whether I should drop out of the institutional “church” scene, until the Lord showed me I need to pray over unscriptural conditions in the church more than I complain about them. I call it the “aim-for-personal-change-and-you’ll-be-doing-your-part-toward-changing-the-church” theory.
It’s liberating to know by experience that I can worship Him very well amid imperfect situations as long as I am where He wants me to be.
A friend said, “I finally found the perfect church, but when I joined, I saw that it wasn’t really perfect.”
Report comment to moderator
Aardvarkjim – I think part of the answer is learning the art of listening to others (cf. the entire book of James, and especially v. 1:19).
Report comment to moderator
The trendiness and fundamental unfairness that we see in Rob Bell’s straw man approach is a mirror image of the strategies political liberals use against conservatives–to paint us as heartless and to feed straw sterotypes that marginalize us. In fact, the Emerging church model stems directly from a leftist political reaction against the Christian right (CR) after the left realized how effective the CR had been at times.
Radical hard-line political activists from the left like Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren (call them the Christian left, or “CL”) regularly use rhetoric that revolves around continual complaining (quite disingenuous too) that the so-called CR was allegedly getting too political and too tied to partisan trappings. The pot was and is calling the kettle black.
Report comment to moderator
Xion, I know what you mean, as many in my church are people who didn’t like that most pastors and/or church leaders were intimidated by their knowledge of the scriptures. One thing I do know, 1 Corinthians 11 through 14 say much about how our meetings on Sunday should be, especially the last half of chapter 14. So Xion, do not keep your mouth shut as you have been previously advised and do find a congregation that follows Paul’s model of meetings and worship. If you live anywhere near New York City, I’d love to have you visit the church I attend. We still have a way to go but we try hard to follow the model Paul laid out, and I personally am hoping for the day that there will be a restoration of the church, as the reformation was a step in the right direction, but there is far more that God meant His church to be.
Xion, your posts here have been quite edifying for me, especially the ones concerning the Bible and its history, and I do believe God wants you to edify His flock. So please let me know if you live or will be near NYC and I will gladly give you the address of where we meet. God most definitely does not want you to shut up.
As a side note, I recommend doing a thorough study of the early church and how their meetings took place and their “structure,” both of which are sadly quite alien to many modern churches.
Report comment to moderator
If anything, churches have run so far away from fundamental principles that you should have no problems.
David
http://www.RedLetterBelievers.com
Report comment to moderator
Joel (#21),
This is, IMHO, a really great comment!!
Report comment to moderator
Given the honest differences of opinion, perhaps Xion – and each one of us – should try it both ways, and see which one works best for us….?
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy (#5),
I agree with Joel’s comment at #8.
When we are walking with the Lord, He will give us (at times) insights which need to be shared with others; the trick is to know when sharing is His</i< idea – and not ours.
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy (#5),
I agree with Joel’s comment at #8.
When we are walking with the Lord, He will give us (at times) insights which need to be shared with others; the trick is to know when sharing is His idea – and not ours.
[corrected comment]
Report comment to moderator
I was completely unaware of the concept of “self-hating evangelicals.” But Southern Baptists I know don’t usually concern themselves with politics of other denominations.
Report comment to moderator
Good comments, Lift My Eyes. And welcome.
Report comment to moderator
As military folks who moved, we have attended churches in many different denominations and more than once, I have not been happy or felt like I was learning much in a particular church.
My husband’s counsel (and knowing we would be leaving within a few years), was to serve within the church and find my teaching from other sources. During one period, I served at our church by teaching a Bible study to women, but attended a BSF Bible study where I got spiritually fed (followed by listening to Elisabeth Elliot’s program on the radio which routinely nailed me to the wall).
During another move to a small town, a colleague encouraged my husband to attend the local Bible church because “the pastor needs someone like you. Someone as Biblically wise and smart, to be his friend and sounding board.”
Those are just thoughts–perhaps God is calling you more to service than to learning at this time in your life, Xion?
Oh, and thanks Joel, I misread the paragraph. It’s still early in CA.
Report comment to moderator
Rondu – you’re correct, of course. But recall too that there is a time for everything, and a season for every purpose under heaven (Ecc. 3:1).
Report comment to moderator
See esp. Eccl. 3:7.
Report comment to moderator
Some good observations. I have noticed in the ‘hipper’ churches that they bend over backwards to seem as PC as they can without denying scripture; and that they distance themselves as much as possible from ‘traditional’ church, as though its a bad thing. Many of the criticisms of the US church are valid, but more often the condemnation is based on what unchurched or leftists think the church is, not what it really is. We should never believe the enemy’s press; they are really not trying to edify us.
Report comment to moderator
Black children growing up under segregation prefer to play with White dolls, and now Olasky tells us that sad Evangelicals “facing discrimination and even loathing in some academic and other circles” are emulating the virtuosos of secular culture just to appease their tormentors.
How deeply embarrassing, Marvin. The truth is, fundamentalists and previous generations of Evangelicals did show something of an inferiority complex. But today’s variety of Evangelicals are out for revenge.
No reparations accepted. The assertive little jerks want to take over the world. The first thing they’ll do, evidenty, is to purify the sons of Levi of self-hatred.
Report comment to moderator
Religion without repentance is all the rage these days. And BTW, defining repentance solely in terms of feelings misses it.
Report comment to moderator
SM – 34 – How charitable of you. Next time, though, don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think.
Report comment to moderator
It’s tough love, BUZZY. That’s good, right?
Report comment to moderator
Very loving indeed.
Report comment to moderator
The fact that evangelical churches hopefully offer the gospel to all and believe that in the Father’s house are many mansions in no way contradicts their belief that “only a select few go to heaven.”
First of all, many evangelical denominations (Reformed) quite explicitly believe that “only a select few go to heaven,” with “select” being a perfectly apropos word choice.
But all evangelical churches believe that only a select few go to heaven. There are presently 6 billion people on the planet. 2 billion of those are at least nominally Christian. Of that 2 billion, how many are “true Christians” — a distinction very often made in evangelical churches? Let’s be generous and say that half of those nominal Christians are in fact true Christians. So of those presently on the planet, evangelicals believe only 1/6 will go to heaven. 5/6 will go to hell because they do not confess Christ.
And as we extend backward through human history, the ratio of the saved to unsaved will only get smaller. Perhaps during the Reformation and the early medieval period (if you’re the sort of evangelical who believes that Catholics can be “true Christians”) our ratio get larger for a time, but certainly once you hit 300 AD, from there back to the beginning of humanity, the entire world excepting only a very few is hell-bound.
And according to the teaching I’ve heard in every evangelical church I’ve ever attended, so does my gentle great-aunt, because (by all appearances) her faith was merely nominal and not true saving faith. She stopped attending church because it simply wasn’t important to her. Only God knows the heart, of course, but we are frequently enjoined to judge by the fruit. And even if my own great-aunt, in her true heart of hearts, has saving faith despite her apparent spiritual apathy, perhaps the next guy’s gentle great-aunt doesn’t.
Quit the equivocating and dodging. If you want to push back against Bell, do it honestly. Yes, evangelicals believe that only a select few go to Heaven. It is, after all, the Narrow Gate. The vast majority go to Hell.
By all means, make your case against Bell. The case needs to be made. But don’t pretend that it’s not a difficult issue. Don’t pretend that Bell is inventing a straw man belief about hell that no evangelical churches really hold.
Report comment to moderator
Tough love is the best love.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the sort of people who are asked not to come back to church may be the sort who are not ashamed to tell us that their conduct in a courtroom may descend to the level of contempt of court. As bloggers, such people may make accusations without meeting certain rhetorical standards, fail to take responsibility when confronted, and thus bear false witness. They may call those with whom they disagree fascists and haters. I could imagine a pattern of such behavior to be true to the art of fiction but I would not say that it resembles any actual blogger, living or dead.
Report comment to moderator
JJF – I think you’re partly right. Christians do believe what Jesus said, when he said only a relative few enter in by the narrow gate, as compared to the broad gate that leads to destruction. On the other hand, Marvin’s reference to the JWs probably has to do with their doctrine that only 144,000 are ever saved, which would be a “select few” indeed. The witness of scripture, however, is that the number of saved is so great that no man can count the multitude (see Rev. 7:9). So all of these verses, and any other relevant ones, must be taken into account to arrive at what Scripture is saying regarding who is saved. As for your aunt, you’re right that only God judges the heart. However, I would warn against judging by appearances or human sentiments alone, as Scripture is more reliable (compare Proverbs 4:12).
Finally, as for straw men, holding up as normative a person who rapes someone while reciting the Lord’s prayer does seem a bit of a straw man, to me at least.
Report comment to moderator
JJF is doing just what Olasky described–creating straw constructions of Evangelicals.
JJF wrote; “So of those presently on the planet, evangelicals believe only 1/6 will go to heaven.”
Silly nonsense. I have NEVER heard conservative Evangelicals speak this way. Healthy conservative Evangelicals have strong positive convictions about moral living and they affirm the principle of accountability on God’s terms. Deal with it. But I don’t hear conservative Evangelicals pretending to know how to count or even ultimately determine who gets into heaven or not. We do understand Jesus’ point about the way being wide that leads to destruction, but we leave the specific judgments to God. Of course there are crack-pots who get lots of attention from bitter secularists who want their cheap stereotypes to live.
Report comment to moderator
I agree with #16 liftmyeyes and #19 P V Mack. I’ll also add, attending church is not all about you – it’s about presenting ourselves a living sacrifice, which is our just and reasonable service (Rom 12:1).
People shop for churches like they shop for schools or clothes. Instead of serious ongoing prayer about where God wants us to be that “living sacrifice”, it’s more about how “comfortable” we are and how well the church serves us through its programs and facilities. In my opinion, the fundamental belief that the church’s primary mission is to entertain/serve its congregation through it’s clergy is one of the main reasons why the today’s churches (in general) are, simply put, dead. The church is to minister to its members through its members (via spiritual gifts), not wholly through paid church staff and programs.
I will not argue the point that the church as a whole is imperfect, filled with sinners, with flaws abound. However, did Paul abandon the church of Corinth due to rampant sin and twisted theology? No, Paul emphasized proper theology, church disipline, love, and unity to that body of believers.
I have had to struggle with church changes on a couple of cross-country moves with my family. Each time I asked God where he wanted me to go to church and he has directed me to a church that has blessed me and my family. It doesn’t mean that my family and I saw eye-to-eye on church decisions/direction, or that there were not conflicts. But as #19 PV Mack said:
“..wondered whether I should drop out of the institutional “church” scene, until the Lord showed me I need to pray over unscriptural conditions in the church more than I complain about them. I call it the “aim-for-personal-change-and-you’ll-be-doing-your-part-toward-changing-the-church” theory”.
That’s more along the lines of being a servant (through prayer) striving for unity as opposed to being served.
Bottom line is this; Go where God leads you to go, regardless. If God leads you to a church that has serious issues, perhaps He is putting you there to help make it right. You will have become the “good and faithful servant” instead of the served.
Scott L.
Report comment to moderator
True or False: Those who do not have faith that Jesus is the Son of God who paid the penalty for our sins will go to Hell.
Report comment to moderator
I’m also a recovering self-hating evangelical and for me the issue was that God revealed in my heart how I was worshipping the idol of relevance instead of Christ and Christ alone. I suspect that underneath all of the weird and wacky evangelical fundamentalist straw men that Bell tauts somewhere the idol of relevance is lurking at the bottom.
Report comment to moderator
JM: Two of yours from above.
1. paragraph…did not hint that God is not loving nor that He was incapable of forgiving bin Laden if bin laden had fully repented. Not sure where you got that.
2. But I don’t hear conservative Evangelicals pretending to know how to count or even ultimately determine who gets into heaven or not.
Methinks there is more than a small contradiction there.
Report comment to moderator
As for Olasky’s decrying of “self-loathing” Jews and Christians, he misses a central point.
Both of those religions, perhaps Christianity a little more so, depend upon the human ability to “self-loathe” to succeed. They seek to convince all men that they must regard themselves as miserable worthless sinners. And they impose impossible and ever- receding goals of behaviour and thought upon those people.
But those who belong yet question the behaviour or tenets of those churches or synagogues are routinely dismissed as “self-loathing”.
Report comment to moderator
#46 – ARCADIA,
Methinks you are seeing things, or making things up. There is no contradiction.
Report comment to moderator
When Marvin says he’s been in more than 100 churches, he must be counting tours of gothic cathedrals, monasteries, the Cotswolds, and Tuscan chiesi, because otherwise he would have heard the news that the magnitude of an individual’s sin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the possibility of salvation; indeed, even thinking about sinners in comparative terms suggests that one don’t understand the need for Christ’s infinite sacrifice, and is therefore closed to its effects. Attending only one or two gospel chapels teaches a visitor that those of little sin, as Man reckons, may be farthest from salvation while the most notorious malefactor may be the nearest — and where nearer than at the cross? Gospel preachers don’t mock the notion of conversions at the instant of death; they bow their heads in amazement, and employ the moment to urge a humble response to the love of God. The possibility of the salvation of bin Laden at the split second the Seals’ bullets fly into his eye is confirmation that the bells of heaven are ready to ring. Despite bin Laden, St. Paul claims to be the greatest sinner. The Gospel chapels say you aren’t saved unless you too admit that you’re the greatest sinner. (See ARCADIA #47).
Report comment to moderator
A Jew who doesn’t support Isreal isn’t automatically self-loathing. Orthodox Jews have long opposed Isreal prefering to wait for the Messaih whereas leftist Jews do not oppose the state but rather its policies. neither are self-loathing rather they simply have an opinion not shared by the majority.
Similarly waht some here may label as self-loathing evangelicals may simply be Christians with a different opinion.
As for the bracketted Bin Ladin comment — would Olasky question God’s judgment if somehow Bin Ladin makes it to heaven?
Report comment to moderator
There is no other group in the world that I know of that it is more politically correct to bash than Evangelicals. And Evangelicals too often lead the bashing party themselves. There is wisdom in Olasky’s advise for us to:
* Stengthen church worship and preaching.
* Study what compassionate Christians have contributed to the world.
* Report what evangelicals are doing now.
Report comment to moderator
Well, Joel, how about it?
True or False: Those who do not have faith that Jesus is the Son of God who paid the penalty for our sins will go to Hell.
Report comment to moderator
JJF, I know what I believe (that Jesus did pay the penalty for my sins) and what the Bible teaches about salvation through Christ. I can teach it too. But nothing in the Bible authorizes me to decide who goes to hell or even who has REAL faith in Jesus. I’m not God, JJF. If you knew me, you would not mistake me for Him.
Report comment to moderator
Good discussion and thanks for the good advice.
Report comment to moderator
That’s not an answer to the question, Joel.
Why are you hedging on a matter that is the plain teaching of Scripture and entirely central to the gospel?
Report comment to moderator
It is my answer to the question, JJF, and I think it is perfect! I will always “hedge”, big time, when asked to play God. You don’t seem to grasp what all is central to the gospel–which includes God’s Sovereignty and sole authorship of salvation!
Report comment to moderator
nothing in the Bible authorizes me to decide who goes to hell or even who has REAL faith
You’re splitting hairs. In one sense one can never “know” the status of another’s salvation because one is not God nor is one that other person.
Then again, the Bible does give some guidelines. For instance, consider a devout Muslim who denies Jesus was the Son of God. Should this person die, would he spend eternity with the Father? If you say “maybe” then doesn’t that make yo somewhat of a universalist?
Report comment to moderator
It is your wordy non-answer to a very straightforward question, Joel. Have you considered a career in politics?
Let me cut through the malarkey here and get back to the original point: is it the standard evangelical belief that only a select few go to heaven? Unequivocally yes. You avoid answering my straightforward question precisely because it reveals the plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face truth of that fact.
Salvation comes only through faith in Christ.
Most of the world does not have faith in Christ.
Therefore most of the world does not see salvation.
You try, in #42, to dodge and deflect with this nonsense about how nobody counts who’s going to heaven. Entirely beside the point. Whether evangelicals are counting or not, their belief necessarily means that the vast majority of human beings end up in Hell.
And that is precisely the point under contention.
Bell is responding to a real discomfort people have with that notion. So address that discomfort. Argue that our discomfort is irrelevant to the truth. But don’t try to pretend that evangelicals don’t really believe that. And much less, don’t try to pretend it with this Rob-Bell-lite nonsense about how you don’t know nothin’ bout Hell, you just know about salvation.
Report comment to moderator
BUDDY GLASS said of me, “You’re splitting hairs.”
You could not be more wrong and I could not be more straight-forward and direct in the clearest possible way than to say I will not play God or presume to say who goes to hell or try to count souls that way. Jesus told a parable wherein some people who saw weeds growing among the wheat wanted to go pull out the weeds. The master stopped them and told them to let them grow together until the harvest and not yank out some because of the danger of yanking out the wrong ones. It’s not our job. Leave it to the Lord. I have been clear as a bell on this and it is not a “hair” but a central tenet of obedience to Scripture.
In this story, we are not necessarily blind to who the weeds might be from our vantage point, but we don’t have the authority to decide ultimately or to yank them up in judgment. Our task is to tend the field faithfully.
Report comment to moderator
JJF, you seem confused. I have already pointed out that Jesus said that the road is wide that leads to destruction. The path to heaven’s open door is narrow and few take it. We have Jesus’ word on that. I never said otherwise, and Bell seems to be running rather contrary to Jesus’ words if he denies that (although he does not seem to mind running the other way from Jesus when you consider also that no one spoke more of hell than Jesus did and not just in this-worldly terms either).
But I still know no one among evangelicals who try to calculate numbers or percentages like you did at post #39. That was an abserd notion and you spend an entire post (#39) trying to parse up the alleged numbers. Now, you are saying that the point you made is now besides the point. Well, maybe we can agree on that.
Report comment to moderator
Mr. DeYoung is picking on the wrong target and himself is fighting unfairly, especailly at the end where he leaves the nasty possibility on our salvation depending upon who we believe. Like many said, Bell is not a theologian, however his chosen mentor, N.T. Wright, is. Perhaps Bell at times misrepresents Wright but much of the case DeYoung takes up is with Mr. Wright who, if he were in the fray, could well defned his Positions on Jesus, the Cross and the Attonement. So, Mr. DeYoung (and Mr. Olasky), perhaps you should take up many of these issues with someone a bit more able to defend themselves. The real battle is between Piper and Wright, not Bell and DeYoung.
Report comment to moderator
I will not play God or presume to say who goes to hell
Would you intentionally share the Gospel with a Muslim, in the hope that he might repent and believe on Jesus as the Christ?
Why?
Would you share the Gospel with Marvin Olasky if you were seated next to him on a plane, in the hope that he might repent and believe on Jesus as the Christ?
If the answers are “yes” and “no”, why the difference?
You seem to take issue with the word “know”. Let’s substitute “highly suspect”. Do you “highly suspect” Richard Dawkins would not spend eternity with the Father if he were to die today? Or are we pretty much in the dark about where Dawkins stands?
Report comment to moderator
JJF, I would like to address your comment on #52.
A true/false question seems to be a rather trite way to see God’s judgment of a human soul. It does not seem right to think that when each person comes to God to “receive his due,” that he would be given a quiz.
Similarly, Jesus did not tell us to discern even now by merely using a question or a list of beliefs. He said, “By their fruits you will recognize them.” (Matthew 7:17)
Certainly, the gospel contains the correct knowledge about Jesus, which can be taught and tested to some degree. But the gospel is not merely knowledge about Jesus, it is knowing Jesus. The message is “Trust Jesus,” not trust in what you know about him.
Is it possible that God meets people who have not heard the name of Jesus and can save them from this world now and forever? “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13) Obviously, this is not merely saying a certain name, but calling on the character and reality of God as far as the person understands. What is acceptable to God in this case? God only knows, but we can trust him to work that out rightly.
To be sure, this open door is not the gospel, but more of a loophole or exception. God is merciful and kind and will judge rightly. The gospel is simply, “Know Jesus and trust him” and such a relationship will assure you not only a place with him and the Father after these bodies retire, but also a continual home with him in this life and in this world where God is alive and well.
The gospel is designed to save people, not condemn them. It is supposed to make it easier to come to God, not easier to condemn others. The message is one of a new life now that stretches on into eternity, isn’t it? No doubt many reject it, but we must let our lives put them to shame (1 Peter 3:15-16).
Please bear with me. I write this as much for myself as anyone else. I long to see the gospel as the good news it really is and to see it lift burdens and free me and those around me to a life lived with God.
Report comment to moderator
BUDDY GLASS asked, “Would you intentionally share the Gospel with a Muslim, in the hope that he might repent and believe on Jesus as the Christ?”
Of course. Nothing I have written implies any lack of a desire or resolve to do this in love and in truth.
“Why?”
My goodness, BG, I have answered that in posts above. Read them! The gospel is good news and I would not keep that from anyone intentionally, certainly not because I believe that God is the final author and judge of salvation (not me). Why should I?
“Would you share the Gospel with Marvin Olasky…”
Yes, absolutely. It’s good news! Why not? If he told me he had an article to write, I might back off though. I would share it with other people’s willing consent. And if he already shares a belief in it, then we have much to identify with and celebrate in our conversation. But I cannot ultimately judge his heart in the process either way. That’s God’s role. And Marvin should not care all that much about the judgments of others (like me should I attempt to make the) either. Only God’s judgment matters in the end.
So the answers are “yes” and “yes”. No difference.
Report comment to moderator
Good thoughts, LIFTMYEYES.
Report comment to moderator
JJF, Mr. Mark, Mr. Glass, stop. For goodness sakes, allow me to be a mediator. The only thing your argument is about is the connotation of the word “select”. Okay? JJF and Mr. Glass mean “select” in the sense of “a small group meeting specific qualifications”, such as faith in Christ as Savior. Mr. Mark means “select” in the sense of “selected, especially by a person in authority”, as in, the pastor of a church selecting the worthy from his congregation.
Can we *hug* and make up now?
Report comment to moderator
Xion, (#2)
My husband and I have had the same struggle, but after months and months, may have found a good balance in the Methodist Church, here. There are actually a variety of people, some more conservative, and some more liberal, but the preaching has been very solidly based on scripture, and the current minister also does not avoid mentioning the Holy Spirit like so many churches we have visited. The focus seems to be a little more on discipleship within the church, which some feel is just “feeding ourselves,” but Jesus spent much of his time with the disciples. When they went out, they went out together, initially following the Master.
There are different church traditions that are acting as different parts of the body: (1 Cor. 12:12-27)evangelical, social justice, prayer, holiness, etc. Should we feed people without teaching them about Christ’s love? Or on the reverse side of the coin, should we tell someone who is hungry about Christ but not feed them?
The awesome thing about God is that he is willing to work with us where we are: He gave the Israelites a king even though it was not the best thing for them. He allowed Moses to speak for Him to the people because they were afraid to be close to God. He gave them the law that was only a shadow of the good things to come (Hebrews 10:1) because law was what they wanted, what they could understand. They had just been slaves, after all, and law was what they knew…
I am seeking to learn more and more how to love people even when they say things that I disagree with. If God can work with them where they are at (as He works with me and some of my real king – requesting mistakes) then I want to have the same love for others that God shows me by His amazing love for me!
So when my husband and I feel we can’t stay at a particular church because we feel unaccepted, whether it is our own impression or real, well, God is working with the people there as well. I know some people who are legalistic because they are afraid. I am not saying that there is no right or wrong, but that God works in us even when we are wrong, and we can have compassion even on those who attack us. But for whatever reason, if my spirit is quenched there, I will seek to find where my spirit rejoices, unless God makes it clear that I am to stay. (There are obviously times where we may need to stay and work things out or learn from a situation.) In the end, God walks WITH us on our search…
“Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.”
I long to be with others who really want to walk with Christ, and seek to be like Christ. I love Psalm 122:1, “I rejoiced with those who said to me, “Let us go to the house of the Lord.”
Report comment to moderator
Xion, what a tough situation. I’m sorry. I’d suggest the Orthodox church of course, if you had any kind of inkling, even if just for a respite until you find what you’re looking for. No one will be intimidated by your Bible knowledge there! People and their knowledge/gifts aren’t the focus of the worship service, the service is 100% prayer and worship of God. So you could relax, rest awhile. If nothing else, you’d get a great church history experience!
Report comment to moderator
OPINIONATED TEEN, yes, we can hug and make up now, although I have no idea what you said (smile).
Report comment to moderator
Self-hating evangelicals have long used and loved gratuitous and unfair-minded quotes like the following:
* “I’m a big fan of Jesus. But I’m not a big fan of those who work for him.” ~ Bill Mahr.
* “Christians are hard to tolerate. I don’t know how Jesus does it.” ~ Bono.
* “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi.
* “I don’t think there is anything wrong with the teachings of Jesus, but I am suspicious of organized religion.” ~ Madonna
* “Every day, people are straying away from the church and going back to God.” ~ Lenny Bruce, The Essential Lenny Bruce
__________
Think about these statements. They are using a pseudo claim to respect Jesus as a pretext for disparaging and even hating people they don’t like, namely church people.
If you know anything about Lenny Bruce, you will know that he took no joy in or held no hope for people genuinely going back to God. He was just posturing for a creative sounding way to bash the church.
Report comment to moderator
Misty Alia, I like that thought of different denominations being different parts of the body. I have thought the same myself. For years I thought only fundamentalists would be saved. Now I know better. I see good and bad in many denominations, kind of like the body. I’m old. I’m overweight. I have aches and pains. But this old body will someday be renewed.
I love my brethren whether they are Reformed, Charismatic, Orthodox, Evangelical and so on. Good Christians will disagree and will emphasize different aspects of their faith, like gifts or doctrine or holiness and so on. We all have much to learn from one another.
CS Lewis said his favorite moments were when he had a beer with his peers and discussed theology. Perhaps some of us are the beer gut of the body. I feel closest to God, not when I am in church but when I am out in nature, on my bicycle or snowboarding or scuba diving. But that isn’t the same as service. I feel I should be helping the younger generation and need to just plug in somewhere.
Report comment to moderator
NW Juliana, I hadn’t considered that one of the advantages of worship in an orthodox church is “no pressure!”. My experience in evangelical circles is that everybody knows everything about everybody, or at leasts wants to. Both have advantages. It is fun to consider the diversity of the body of Christ.
Report comment to moderator
Mr. Mark, I was referring to the quote that you two were disputing about from that author, Mr. Bell, that Mr. Olasky used. “Only a select few go to heaven.” The only thing you bunch were quibbling about was the definition of the word “select”.
Report comment to moderator
#47 makes me think of the following: I think Christians often mistake the call for personal humility with church-bashing. We are called by the Bible to love the church and to personally put ourselves below it- to submit to its leadership, to consider others better than ourselves, to confess our sins to them, and be in unity with them as much as possible. But that is awfully hard. So instead evangelicals can feel properly humble by bashing their church collectively, while not actually being at all humble about themselves. They lecture their pastors on theology, leave churches at the drop of a hat, complain daily in conversation about other Christians, and feel that by doing so they are fulfilling the Bible’s call to humility. Perhaps both Jews and Christians are so hateful of their own organizations and communities because they think that somehow fulfills God’s call to personal humility, but personal humility is a lot harder.
Report comment to moderator
I think people like Bell and others who are critical of aspects of evangelicalism aren’t “self haters”, but are in some respects like the prophets of old speaking out against the false-doctrines, pagan-practices, and dead-traditions that are tarnishing the glory of our great Christ.
Report comment to moderator
Tribedad and Snoke: The accusation of “self hating [denomination here] comes very easily to church authorities who are questioned or challenged. After all, they have already spent years trying to shred the ego of these same people, often quite successfully. They have also, historically speaking burned, tortured, executed and banished heretics and blasphemers, rather than try to prove the correctness of their own beliefs.
By those standards, simply disparaging or dismissing the messenger is very small potatoes indeed.
And none of it makes them any righter than their critics.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's Community section to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!