What to do with marriage now
Last Friday, at five minutes before midnight, and just in time for the weekend’s Gay Pride parade, the New York state Senate, with the help of four Republicans, voted to establish same-sex marriage in the third largest state in the union. New York is the sixth state to make it legal for homosexuals to marry, more than doubling the proportion of the country by population that now recognizes this arrangement, almost all of it concentrated in the extreme northeast.
In the face of this unholy alliance between government authority and the morally irresponsibly progressive fringe, it is tempting to “get government out of the marriage business” and privatize the whole matter.
It reminds me of the school prayer issue back in Canada. When I was a boy in Ontario, like everyone else at the time, I attended public school. There were no “Christian schools,” and there was certainly no homeschooling movement. We began each day with what we called “opening exercises.” We would stand beside our desks for the national anthem, bow our heads for the Lord’s Prayer, and then sit down for the principal’s announcements. There was nothing in Canada like the American First Amendment to prevent these daily religious observances, and I was unaware of any objection to them.
Some years after I graduated, the cultural consensus had disintegrated to the point where schools began alternating between a Christian prayer or reading and readings from other religious holy books, native Indian prayers, and even song lyrics from people like John Lennon. At that point it was best just to dispense with the activity altogether.
Where there is a Christian cultural consensus, civil authorities are wise to reinforce that moral foundation for the sake of the citizen character it fosters. But when we can no longer agree on our moral foundation, a hodgepodge of religious expressions serves only to undermine religion by relativizing it. Of course, a society without a moral foundation on which it can agree is no society at all, which is a more fundamental problem.
With the passage of this same-sex marriage law in New York and with California teetering (will Texas hold?), are we at the same point of moral collapse where marriage is concerned? Where the cultural consensus is so shattered and the government, accordingly, is so morally adrift that it cannot discern between the union of a man and a woman, homosexual cohabitation, a motorcycle gang, and who knows what else when recognizing marriage, has the time come to remove the question entirely form the purview of government responsibility? Should the government limit itself to recognizing private contracts regarding inheritance, legal custody of children and property, hospital visitation rights, etc.?
A study by the Council on Family Law, “The Future of Family Law: Law and the Marriage Crisis in North America,” points out the difficulties with this initially attractive “separationist” approach.
The state has an interest in promoting marriage whether by officially recognizing and honoring it or by facilitating it with tax advantages. The state’s interest is in strengthening that social arrangement that brings people into the world and then forms them morally into emotionally stable, law abiding, neighbor blessing, productive members of society who in turn become capable of forming future families.
Yes, the nagging fact about natural sexual relations is that they produce children. It is chiefly this that draws the state into the recognition and regulation of marriage. It is responsible for protecting people, especially the most vulnerable, like children, and thus it oversees the marriages that produce and nurture them. The state has no interest in granting special advantages to certain people simply on the basis of how and with whom the practice sexual intimacy.
Furthermore, the study points out that “the disestablishment of marriage would support a troubling and already all too common perception that marriage may be a nice ceremony but is no longer a key social institution.”
Lastly, the report argues that “outside of marriage, the state is necessarily drawn into greater and more intrusive regulation of family life.” It is because of the natural bonds and family ties of marriage that the state leaves so much discretion in child rearing to parents. Expect that to change under disestablishment.
Tactically, it’s also a dead end. Now that homosexuals in New York have access to the social legitimacy of marriage they will cling to it tenaciously. It will also serve as a useful legal base from which to promote their way of life in public schools, force institutions across society to affirm the moral legitimacy of their sexual activity, and punish those who hold traditional views. If Christians and moral traditionalists cannot win the battle for true marriage, they have no reason to think a battle for marriage disestablishment will be any more successful. If you can’t win one debate, what makes you think you can win the other?
The way forward has to lie elsewhere.

















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back to top44 Comments to “What to do with marriage now”
Getting government out of the marriage business and privatizing the whole matter simply makes marriage ANYTHING and EVERTYHING that anyone wants it to be on whatever terms they like–because it is defined purely privately and it’s no one else’s business. I think this is the most follish and destructive position of all.
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This is how a Nation dies Spiritual.
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Right now, more state are against than in favor.
Does SSM in these few states change what marriage is to God? Absolutely NOT. We shall continue to resist sliding down the slope no matter what.
Marriage hasn’t changed for me. A law can make SSM legal. It can’t make it right. Our country is in free fall. We no longer have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. There is only one end.
I say Maranatha.
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Why resist sliding down the slope no matter what when it doesn’t change what marriage is to YOUR god or to you?
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Because I don’t want to live in a sewer of a society.
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I suppose we all wake up at different levels of the decline. We need to reevaluate and revitalize our convictions regarding many personal values. I started to make a list but it really includes everything. The point is not to be legalistic about Christ-like behavior but to earnestly and genuinely follow the Lord in every arena of our life.
At the risk of being accused of being a Christian jihadist, I think we should take very seriously the fact that we are Christians who providentially live in America rather than Americans who happen to be Christians. As our American culture becomes more and more anti-Christ we must be willing to walk closely with Jesus and to pay whatever consequences the culture dishes out and God allows. All the while recognizing the privilege and responsibility of being salt and light in a lost world.
In this Marriage arena… Christians need to radically demonstrate Christ-like marriages and families. Perhaps we have lost the credibility to challenge our culture on the nature of marriage. Perhaps they can’t hear what we are saying because they don’t see it in our lives. Not that we are responsible for their sin; but we certainly are responsible for our own.
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However getting government out would remind people that real marriage is a covenantal relationship under God. I think that we Christians have become complacent and have come to think that marriage is mainly a contractual agreement that is licensed, regulated, and registered by the state.
I think that most American Christians would regard it as a real marriage if two people got married by a justice of the peace in a private home with no mention of God but not a real marriage if they got married by a clergyman with no license before and no certficate afterwards. But how would God view it?
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The conviction of our church leadership is that if Idaho were to adopt SSM and thus dilute and redefine Biblical marriage, we would no longer participate in government “marriage” ceremonies. We would do just as you suggested and participate in the Biblical marriage unions without state licenses and certificates. We would encourage the couple to comply with legal requirements for civil protections. We would consider the marriage to be the commitments before God not the ones before the state. Actually, that is the way we already consider it.
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morally irresponsibly progressive fringe
Can you really call it “fringe view” when it’s held by 51-53% of those polled?
Where there is a Christian cultural consensus, civil authorities are wise to reinforce that moral foundation…
So when Christians dominate the culture, the civil government should enforce their cultural norms on the non-Christian minority? You don’t see any first amendment issue there?
The state’s interest is in strengthening that social arrangement that [has a bunch of good effects]. [...] The state has no interest in granting special advantages to certain people simply on the basis of how and with whom the practice sexual intimacy.
If it could be shown that allowing same-sex marriage served to mitigate the extent to which homosexuals engage in destructive behavior, would the state then have an interest in promoting it along with heterosexual marriage? If we’re appealing to pragmatism here…
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This all started when church and state were one. We just accepted it because it is what our ancestors did and what they passed on to us. The Bible does not say that a marriage is only a marriage if it is licensed by the town or county and registered with them.
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BuddyGlass, the main interest that the state has in regulating marriage is for protecting children, as pointed out in the article. The state’s job is not to stop people from engaging in self-destructive behavior.
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I don’t know that you can say that same-sex marriage is an issue of the “progressive fringe” when conservative luminaries like Ted Olson are in favor of it. I suspect that no one has ever accused Ted of being on the “progressive fringe”.
Of course, I suspect that World Magazine’s definition of the “progressive fringe” includes just about everyone whose social views lie to the left of those of James Dobson (i.e., about 80% of the population).
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I enjoyed reading the article cited by Innes.
The authors note that a key shift in marriage has occurred within the past 100 years. This is the shift from marriage being a child-centered (or society-centered) institution to being an institution centered on the two betrothed adults and their personal happiness. Pursuant to this shift, same-sex marriage becomes a much more reasonable construct.
Of course, many heterosexual couples, including most evangelicals, view marriage as being entered on the two betrothed adults and their personal happiness. What else explains the astronomically high divorce rates…among both evangelicals and non-evangelicals.
I think it’s fair to argue that no-fault divorce has wrought far more havoc on our society than same-sex marriage ever will. All the while, the evangelical church has been largely silent. After all, churches and para-church organizations may get a lot of their donations from divorcees.
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Evan, granted the church has not spoken out strongly enough on the inviolable covenant nature of marriage. That doesn’t mean it’s time to discard any and all standards for marriage, including its basic definition; it means it’s time to return to teaching (and practicing) marriage as God intended.
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Cheryl, true. But should that be done within the church, or is it the church’s job to instruct the rest of the world?
Evan makes an excellent point, most Americans, especially secular Americans, do not even view marriage the way that we do. They see it as something you do because you are “in love” and to make yourself “happy.” They see child bearing the same way. It is something you do to fulfill something in yourself.
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Where there is a Christian cultural consensus, civil authorities are wise to reinforce that moral foundation for the sake of the citizen character it fosters
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To continue, even our most “hostile” Founding Fathers [Jefferson, Franklin] recognized the societal GOOD from having a Christian consensus even if in their own lives they minimized its importance. We’ve all read the Madison quote about how our system of govt cannot work without a moral and religious people. He was 100% correct.
What no one notices around the world is the widespread proliferation of alternative spiritual worldviews only seems to take root in the JudeoChristian west. Hindu culture, Buddhist culture and Muslim culture.. are any of them as “live and let live” as our western secular democracy? And what religion shaped our secular democracy from the Declaration of Independence onward?
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Kyle, I don’t think it’s the church’s job to instruct (lecture) the rest of the world, but the rest of the world should be able to see our love for one another, our strong marriages, that our kids are prepared to be wise adults entering their own strong marriages (yes, understanding that some will rebel), etc.
But the definition of marriage is not a specifically Christian thing; it’s a creation principle. I do think we can (and should) argue for it. To what extent, I don’t know. I do think it’s “inevitable,” humanly speaking, that we will lose this one. Homosexual “marriage” will be approved within this generation in places where it hasn’t yet been, I think. But I do think we can say that isn’t the way it’s supposed to be. I also think we need to get our own houses in order–co-habitation is not the Christian way to prepare for marriage, for example, and I know too many young people (and old people, for that matter) doing it, and apparently without a lot of church discipline dealing with it.
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“When you gonna wake up, and strengthen the things that remain?” (as the Bob Dylan song asks).
If anyone wants to form a government approved “Partnership” fine, let them, regardless of their sexual habits. But if they want to become “married” I think that the government needs to stay out of it. That is the domain of the Church. I agree with the separation of Government from Church. Let religious bodies “marry” people. The key is to have limited, small government, and large churches. We cannot have government leading and controlling our morality. They are doing so more and more, when are we going to say “enough”? We do have the constitution to support us don’t we? Otherwise we have abandoned our nation as we knew/know it and what it was designed to be.
“When you gonna wake up, and strengthen the things that remain?”
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Evan,
I was hoping you’d follow up on my request for background on that Poythress quote you provided the other day.
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Ernie Lee, how is marriage the domain of the church? (I’m not saying it’s the domain of government, but unbelievers who aren’t part of the church marry, biblically.)
Bibilcally marriage and family is a third institution, alongside government and church but needing family “permission” to marry and not government or church permission. Since Christians are members of the same body, I have no problem with choosing to be under the church’s authority in this and in other things, and since government does “recognize” marriage, in an urban society perhaps it makes sense for marriages to be “officially” a matter of public record, and thus recognized by the government. But it’s hard to say that either the church or the government is required biblically in order to have a valid marriage. (No, I don’t think couples should simply move in together with no public recognition of covenant vows. But the question of whether marriage comes under the government or under the church is properly answered, “Neither.”)
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http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/270592/we-need-marriage-mona-charen
This column should be required reading. A good jumping off point for any and all discussions about marriage in the USA
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#4 – SCOTT’s post at #4 well illustrates the raw and radical self-centeredness that led to this evil in the first place and will keep this evil before us. It is blind selfishness to a staggering extent.
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#7 – KYLE A wrote; “However getting government out would remind people that real marriage is a covenantal relationship under God.”
How on earth would it do that??? Getting gov’t out of any interest in marriage would simply remove all limits so that any consenting parties can make marriage whatever they want it to be at any time for any one. That would hurt the nation, especially our children, badly!
But teaching or reminded people that marriage is a covenantal relationship under God is a task for Christians regardless of what the laws are or what the gov’t does. I just don’t want the gov’t to do such an irresponsible thing that will hurt children.
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#10 – “This all started when church and state were one.”
Total nonsense, KYLE A. In what way? When was church and state really one in the USA? When this started, it was because the church had been radically marginalized (and her freedoms repressed) by secularists who disallow Christian influence in the public square.
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BUDDYGALSS and EVAN, if the “progressive fringe” is not a fringe any longer but represents the view of som 53%, then when do you think hypocrite Obama will join it? His rhetoric brands Obama as an opponent of SSM. He campaigns that marriage is only for one man and one woman. His actions and policies, of course, are nowhere near his rhetoric and they clearly reveal his raw hypocrisy, but who cares about that?
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EVAN is simply wrong about divorce rates. Christians who attend church regularly have a much lower rate of divorce across the board and nation wide than those who do not belong to churches or attend regularly.
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KYLE A, we should not legally change the very definition of marriage or completely lose all interest in marriage at the public level and set it free of all legal definition simply because some people have come to view it differently. Some may view it in polyamorous terms, polygamist terms, homosexualist terms and so on, but marriage is still what it is and for the sake of our children, we need to protect its definition at every level including the legal level. If after trying our best, we still lose at the legal level — that’s one thing. But to retreat uncaringly and let marriage define itself privately for anyone and everyone without regard to what children need is another. That would be hartless and evil.
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KYLE A,
Question… do you want the gov’t to begin printing marriage licenses, pasports, and all other legal couments that no longer include words like “father” or “mother” or “husband” or “wife” but INSTEAD printe “parent A” or “parent B’ or “parent C” or “partner A” or “partner B” or “partner C”?
They have to do one or the other you know.
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I will now describe what I feel could be a side effect or unforeseen consequence of NY and other state’s legalizing sodomy marriage.
As you know Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy ea lured and entrapped young men. Prior to murdering their victims they would sodomize and torture them. In the case of either man a few victims managed to escape. Those would-be victims fled to police and when victim and police confronted the perp the cops tended to write off the whole issue as some type of consensal sodomy (as Gacy at one time had the audacity to claim).
In a state where sodomy marriage is legal I suspect you will have a lot of Dahmers and Gacys to deal with in the future. And police will not be zealous investigators. I do not equate all homosexuals with Dahmer or Gacy but again my suspicion is that sickos similar to them will hide behind legalized gay marriage.
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Joel,
#24–What I meant was that Christians would remember that marriage is a sacred covenant under God, if they did not think it was something involving state licensing and registration. If you answer to your church elders instead of to the town or county clerk, you might realize better what marriage really is. If you had to get approval from your church to divorce your spouse, then maybe it would not be such an easy, casual thing to get divorced.
As for people making marriage whatever they want it to be, they already can. I had an aunt who had a “common-law marriage” with a man. My father has been married three times–this time to his step-daughter, the daughter of his second wife. And, like it or not, and I don’t, same-sex couples have considered themselves “married” for a long time now. I once knew two old ladies who apparently were living that way.
However, if we all agree on what marriage actually is, nobody can really change that–no matter what laws they pass or how they choose to live. We will have to work harder to teach our children what marriage really is. However, if the state got out of it, then it would be easier, I think. There would be no such thing as “marriages” outside of marriages sanctioned by religious bodies. Our kids would realize that all those other kinds of arrangements are not really marriages.
As for children getting hurt, they already are getting hurt. Some are born to single mothers. Some are born to cohabiting couples. Some have gone through mutliple divorces and remarriages. Can laws stop any of those things?
#25–In the early colonial days, the church and the state were one. Marriage records were originally kept in churches, as they were in Europe. When the United States created a secular government they continued to treat a religous institution as a civil institution.
#28–Don’t misunderstand me. If marriage remains a civil institution, then I want it to be limited to a man and a woman. I have argued many times that I do not want the definition of marriage under the law to be changed. I think such a thing will be harmful. However, I can see how we might have been better off without government regulation of marriage in the first place.
If marriage were strictly a religious matter, there would be no talk of the “right” to marry. There would be no financial incentives that same-sex couples claim that they have a right to. People would not talk about how any two people who “love” each other should be allowed to get married. It would be none of the state’s business what constitutes a marriage and how it is solemnized.
#29–No, I do not want gender-neutral documents, but it won’t harm me if we end up with them. It is silly, since those distinctions actually exist and denying them doesn’t make them disappear. Again, we will need to continue to teach our kids that there are fathers and mothers and that every person born has or had one of each. We will need to teach them that the man is a husband and the woman is a wife. If we do our job well, they will see the sham in other arrangements. And, again, if there were no such thing as civil, secular marriage, it would make our job easier.
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if the “progressive fringe” is not a fringe any longer but represents the view of som 53%, then when do you think hypocrite Obama will join it?
Soon, I hope.
EVAN is simply wrong about divorce rates. Christians who attend church regularly have a much lower rate of divorce across the board and nation wide than those who do not belong to churches or attend regularly.
Notably the low divorce rate seems to correspond more to church attendance than to the particular religion in question. Moreover, frequent Catholics and mainline Christians (i.e. the liberal denominations) both have lower divorce rates than frequent Evangelicals. Non-frequent evangelicals have a higher rate than atheists/agnostics. Stats from Brad Wright’s analysis:
58%, non-frequent Black Protestants
54%, non-frequent Evangelicals
51%, no religion (e.g., atheists & agnostics)
48%, ALL NON-CHRISTIANS
48%, non-frequent, other religions
47%, frequent Black Protestants
42%, non-frequent, mainline Protestants
41%, ALL CHRISTIANS
41%, non-frequent Catholics
39%, Jews
38%, frequent other religions
34%, frequent Evangelicals
32%, ALL FREQUENT CHRISTIANS
32%, frequent mainline Protestants
23%, frequent Catholics
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Neil Evans #6 – excellent thoughts.
Sawgunner #22 – good link – thanks.
Kyle A – I think it would be impractical for the government not to have some definition of what pair of people is married, from a legal standpoint. To take a few examples of many, there’s the matter of when to apply the rules of intestate succession, electing against a spouse’s will, state-enforced child support and alimony, and the marital testimonial privilege in criminal proceedings.
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BUDDYGLASS,
Liberal divorce rates would be a lot higher if more of them would marry at all in the first place rather than shacking up. When marriage rates are profoundly lower, divorce rates are not as high as they would be otherwise. When you add in all the shack-up liberals who breack up, with or without children involved, then the separation rates would go up very high.
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Just a question on #32: do the statistics take into account whether the divorce occurred before the person entered the category in question? If the person divorced, and then later converted to Christianity (as an Evangelical, for example), and are included in the stats as having divorced, then the stats are not behaviorally meaningful. I can’t access the link provided, so I don’t know if the web site provides that level of detail.
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KYLE A wrote; “What I meant was that Christians would remember that marriage is a sacred covenant under God, if they did not think it was something involving state licensing and registration.”
Huh? This makes no sense to me. Christians would and should NOT change their view of marriage or remember or forget anything based on what the state does. But the value of the state’s involvement in licencing and registering marriages stands on its own merits, for the good of the people that the state is supposed to serve.
KYLE A wrote; “As for people making marriage whatever they want it to be, they already can.”
Huh? Not legally. What state or country do you live in, KYLE A? Even the homosexualist US states do not tolerate letting marriage be what polygamists and polyamorists want it to be.
KYLE A wrote; “…if the state got out of it, then it would be easier, I think.”
Yes, easier for polygamists, polyamorists, homosexual triples and quadruples and for same-sex sibling marriage advocates. It would be easier for all, and without limites.
KYLE A wrote; “As for children getting hurt, they already are getting hurt.”
And MORE of them would be hurt MUCH worse if the state held zero standards for marriage.
KYLE A wrote; “#25–In the early colonial days, the church and the state were one.”
Good grief. I am talking about the real life policy in the real world today. The USA has had a legal definition of marriage for some 235 years since those pre USA times. And no, the church and state were NOT actually one back then. We had Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics, Puritans and others in this country and we did NOT have a state that was in any way united with any or all of these denominations.
KYLE A wrote; “It would be none of the state’s business what constitutes a marriage and how it is solemnized.”
Sorry, but it is indeed the people’s business, regardless of their faith or lack of same.
KYLE A wrote; “No, I do not want gender-neutral documents, but it won’t harm me if we end up with them.”
So, it’s only about you, KYLE A?
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Why should the current generation CARE about marriage–who is or isn’t married?
We have shown them that marriage is NOT important–divorce is rampant. Living together is ok at ANY age.
Not surprised by it all–saw it coming miles away.
Not afraid, just concerned about what’s next on the agenda.
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I believe that in the bible in the book of Genesis it says it all, Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and they shall be one flesh.
Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. IT does not say Adam and steve his husband, it is ADAM AND EVE, his wife, the mother of all living, from this bloodline Christ would come. It is very sick world we are not living in. Christians have to start standing strong against the abomination that is now plaguing our nation and stop the political correctness. I guess a lot of people believe we should follow all the walking dead, like lemmings over a cliff.
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“Cheryl D. wrote: …how is marriage the domain of the church?”
First, I totally agree with Kyle A in #31.
I should clarify and say “Marriage should, and could be the domain of the Church, not the government. I want us Christians to claim the term “marriage” as our own. Let the government perform partnerships and contracts between anyone who wants to form one. Between a person and a dog ,or with a truck or 19 people, who cares? It can be with all the legally binding agreements they wish. They can do that now, just don’t sanction it as “marriage”. A marriage is a sacred covenant made in Heaven between God, a Man and a Woman.
A partnership or business deal is better made in the courts by the government. I don’t want my government making the popular morality of the day the law that I must obey. I want to be free.
Separation of Church and the government, freedom of religion is what I advocate.
The Church must “Rise Up”. Thy Kingdom Come on earth as it is in Heaven.
It begins in our hearts.
Large Church, small government.
Can I get an Amen?
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Amen.
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ERNIE LEE,
You stated a false dichotomy. Marriage already is within the respected domain of the church and this is no argument at all for the gov’t to have nothing at all to do with it. It is NOT an either/or equation. Not all people belong to a church and they also have a right to be married AND the state also has a right to provide reasonable definitions for this union, for the sake of our survival as a civilization.
ERNIE LEE wrote; “Let the government perform partnerships and contracts between anyone who wants to form one.”
Anyone!? Consenting adult Parent-child marriages? Same-sex simbling quintuple marriages? The Dalla Mavericks tie the knot? Polyamorous unions for bi-sexuals and others? GLBTAMIPP marriages too? All sanctioned by “the people”? Total nonsense. So, our entire culture will have zero definition of marriage and ANYthing goes in the name of gov’t? Think of all the innocent children this could destroy!
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ERNIE LEE wrote, “…just don’t sanction it as ‘marriage’.”
On what basis, ERNIE, would try to influence or force the gov’t and non-Christians to NOT use the word “marriage” if they insist on it for partnerships between a person and a dog or between 19 people? Who are you to tell them what word to use or not? How would you impose your desire on the state and those outside the church to only used terms like “union” or “partnerships” and refrain from using the sacred word “marriage”?
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KYLE A is this (below) what you are saying “AMEN” to (as long as the label of “marriage” is not technically used)?
From #39 – “[Gov't marriage/unions] Between a person and a dog ,or with a truck or 19 people, who cares? It can be with all the legally binding agreements they wish.”
So, all the gov’t has to do to mollify and please Christians is just change the label and not “call” it “marriage”, and then it can do anything it ways. I care about reality more than labels.
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“… anything it wants.”
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