Helping the truly poor
The Bible clearly speaks of the obligations of those who are materially blessed to help those without food, clothing, shelter, or medical help. But are middle-class folks required to give upgrades to people who already have all of that?
The United States does have some truly poor people, but when we expand the number of “the poor” as the latest Census Bureau poverty statistics do, we expand cynicism and a reluctance to help—and that hurts the truly poor.
Robert Rector, a senior research fellow at The Heritage Foundation, is probably the nation’s leading expert on welfare. He has persevered for over two decades in the generally thankless job of blowing the whistle on poverty industry propagandists. Rector criticizes the Census Bureau’s claims that one-in-seven Americans is poor, and says Washington enormously overstates the poverty number.
He recently looked at living conditions of those defined as poor, and then reported this:
“The home of the average poor family was in good repair and not overcrowded. . . . The typical poor American had more living space than the average European. (Note: That’s average European, not poor European.) The average poor family was able to obtain medical care when needed. . . . The average intake of protein, vitamins, and minerals by poor children is indistinguishable from children in the upper middle class and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms.”
Does pointing this out mean that Rector and other conservatives are heartless? I think not: He’s right to note, “Exaggeration and misinformation about poverty obscure the nature, extent, and causes of real material deprivation, thereby hampering the development of well-targeted, effective programs to reduce the problem.”
Our goal should not be redistribution of income from the middle class to millions of wards of the government who are not poor. That attempt leads to resistance and anger. Our goal should be to do as much as we can to make sure that no one goes without food, clothing, or shelter.

















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back to top109 Comments to “Helping the truly poor”
“The United States does have some truly poor people…”
And what is the qualification for being “truly poor” in the United States?
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You are apparently making the same mistake that the report itself decries, considering the “poor” as a fixed population. In, fact the population of those who are defined as poor changes. A University of Wisconsin study tracking those on poverty, found that over a six year period 30 percent of working adults would have fallen below the poverty line for at least two months. They’re in, they’re out. (And you did note that the report indicated that there were a number in the current poverty pool who are in the pool temporarily?)
The same study found that over the same six-year period, 12.2 percent had incomes that overall averaged less than the poverty line, even though for some periods these same adults had income above this line. That’s one in eight.
Given the above, we can see that we are probably in need of two sorts of programs: those of genuine relief, and those that assist families to recover and leave poverty. Both are needed.
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My Father often went to school barefoot in cold weather. He something didn’t get enough to eat. He had to borrow books to do his homework. He quit school in the 8th grade, got a job to help out the family. I’d call that truly poor.
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The guy in the picture is desperate, but I suspect once he gets a job, he won’t be truly poor. He does need help though to make it through. I have defended the unemployed before and I know there are those who can’t see extending benefits, so I won’t go there.
I plan to give to the local food bank.
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I would, too, KBells, and I’m sorry that happened to him in the USA.
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HopeSprings, according to worldhunger.org, “15.4 million Americans live in extreme poverty. This means their family’s cash income is less than half of the poverty line, or less than about $10,000 a year for a family of four”.
I had to look that up, because I didn’t know what “truly poor” meant either. Of food, clothing, and shelter, it’s fairly obvious that without help, two of those three things wouldn’t be accessible to a family with that income.
Although there are 48 different thresholds for poverty according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty line for a family of four is around $26,000 (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/measure.html).
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The Bible clearly speaks of the obligations of those who are materially blessed to help those without food, clothing, shelter, or medical help.
Is it so specific? The passages that come to my mind merely reference “the poor”.
Our goal should not be redistribution of income from the middle class to millions of wards of the government who are not poor.
Few advocate redistributing money away from the middle class. They advocate redistributing money away from the upper class. If anything, someone at the median income most likely benefits from redistributive policies.
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Cash income is not all the income, however. There are food stamps, free lunches, breakfasts for the children, sometimes fuel assistance, health care and a variety of programs depending on the state one lives in. That does not count the help given by churches and other poverty fighting organizations.
I do agree that many people move through the system. We did when we were laid off and needed some benefits. We were dismayed to find special rules applied to the temporary people on lay-offs at the time. We were told this by the workers themselves.
There are families that do not move through the system and even pass the ‘lifestyle’ down generations. They are the ones that know how to ‘work’ the system. That is not good.
It is hard for families who watch every penny and have to deny themselves many things to see these families have those same things. I don’t think most people have a problem helping those people who really need it. It is not an easily solvable problem as one size does not fit all.
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Guess I’ve been truly poor for most of my working life then…
I’ve never wanted for the necessities though.
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Redistributing from the middle class’s boss to the point where he decides it’s just not worth it anymore and closes shop does take away from the middle class.
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“Is it so specific? The passages that come to my mind merely reference “the poor”.”
Care to make a wager?
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I disagree about the middle class benefitting from such programs. They are generally the ones who fall between the cracks—not making enough to be able to buy certain things, but too much to get aid.
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And here’s the wager…
If I find a passage in the Bible specifically referencing at least three of these items, then you make a donation to the charity of my choice.
If I can’t, then I’ll make a donation to the charity of yours…
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The guy in the picture has a better shirt than I’ve ever bought.
The pants could use some work.
Food, shelter, clothing, are pretty easy to come by for the homeless guy. He just has to beg. No income needed.
What is difficult to do, is to give him an incentive to be more than a homeless guy.
This requires more than a government program. It requires investing in a relationship.
To just give them food/clothing/shelter is a hands off approach. It is good to do, but if we simply leave it at that, have we truly helped anyone?
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“They advocate redistributing money away from the upper class. If anything, someone at the median income most likely benefits from redistributive policies.”
Except the rich will just take their money elsewhere, so why attempt to extort them?
Considering much of my tax money, goes to redistribution, and I’ve seen none of that in return, I’m not getting any benefits.
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“The guy in the picture has a better shirt than I’ve ever bought.”
When I worked at a homeless shelter we would give the guys things from the clothes closet. Sometimes the clothes were cast offs from wealthy people so it was quite common to see homeless people walking around in designer label clothes.
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But are middle-class folks required to give upgrades to people who already have all of that?
Yes.
Upgrades are necessary in order to guarantee that everybody gets a seat and nobody gets bumped. Remember, Jesus will send you to hell if just one person goes without food, clothing, and shelter. You won’t get into heaven by merely reducing the rate of severe impoverishment.
Poverty isn’t just about quantities of assets but about the behavioral disabilities that result from a scarcity in those assets relative to the behavior of competitors who enjoy plenty.
I’d add upgrades for healthcare, too.
Most middle-class people want a society that lives up to this level of generosity.
Anger and grumbling are caused by 1.) the moral snobs among us who have always turned up their noses against Gin Row, 2.) the racists among us who got denied when they they themselves applied for welfare so now resent food stamps for Negroes, and 3.) capitalists who are obsessed with socialism for religious rather than pragmatic reasons.
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I think that everything I’ve read above is a good argument for having our welfare money and programs handled by private, nonprofit organizations instead of by the government. All the government can do is judge whether the information an applicant gives puts him and/or his family within the boundaries of certain criteria and then hand him assistance (or not) depending upon whether that information matches the criteria. Organizations like the ones that WORLD Magazine is giving annual awards to don’t look at what’s stated on a paper application; they are close enough to the people they help to see just what’s needed (if anything) and where, and then give the most appropriate help for that specific situation.
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Moonpie, I know that there are “truly poor” in the U.S., but I posed the question because often we don’t think of the people here as poor because we compare their poverty to that of a third world nation. I have even heard it said, “You have no poor in America.”
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The poor in America do not compare to the poor in the rest of the world. However, if I cannot pay my rent do to a lay-off, it is little consolation.
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“Is it so specific? The passages that come to my mind merely reference “the poor”.”
Care to make a wager?
Sure. If you can show that the passages that came to my mind are actually more specific than simply mentioning “the poor” then I’ll pay you $1,000.
Good luck with that. Not least of which because you have no idea which passages I’m even thinking of.
Obviously there are some that are more specific. Marvin, however, seems to think that because certain passages mention specific needs the believer is required only to provide for those specific needs. I don’t think that follows.
If I tell you, “Feed my dog while I’m out of town,” and also, “Take care of my dog while I’m out of town,” do you understand those two commands to leave you free from the need to give the dog water as well as food?
Likewise, if the Bible says “Make sure the poor don’t go hungry,” and also, “Take care of the poor,” is the believer enjoined only to provide food and nothing else?
Except the rich will just take their money elsewhere, so why attempt to extort them?
Except…they don’t take it all. Consider that at various points in the past the wealthy have paid a higher overall tax rate than they do now. How in the world was that possible if they just “take their money elsewhere” whenever taxes are higher?
Considering much of my tax money, goes to redistribution, and I’ve seen none of that in return, I’m not getting any benefits.
Correct. The point of redistribution is not to benefit the those who are wealthy enough to have their income redistributed. In theory, at least, it benefits those to whom the wealth is eventually distributed.
In another sense, though, perhaps you have benefited. We don’t really know what our economy and communities would look like if we suddenly did away with all entitlements (possibly including free public education) and moved to a non-progressive system of taxation. I suspect it would not be pleasant.
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Redistribution of anyone’s wealth is WRONG, rich or middle class. Just plain wrong. I wish the Left would figure it out that you should get what you earn, not what other people earn.
Take care, Buddyglass. People who take on a bet like that usually get it handed to them on a silver platter.
Oh, and the poor you will always have with you, but me, said Jesus, not so much longer.
Learn what is of the greatest value, BG.
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Any multinational corporation that outsources or insources, pays for the food stamps x 2, free nice shelter and free auto in the driveway for the American…who can’t find work.
…it’ll make them feel so giddy inside.
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Our goal should not be redistribution of income from the middle class to millions of wards of the government who are not poor. That attempt leads to resistance and anger. Our goal should be to do as much as we can to make sure that no one goes without food, clothing, or shelter.
Nope, nobody’s talking about taxing the middle class here, and Olasky knows it full well. He’s just plain lying here. It’s the R’s who are talking about taking away promised and paid for benefits from middle class SS recipients, slashing medicare, etc.
But I did just happen across Forbes recent rankings, not of the millionaires, but of the billionaires. It seems we have 453 of them in this country and their total net worth is about $1.4 TRILLION. Those people, who could fit into a good sized ballroom, could take care of darn near our entire deficit this year. Or maybe could take care of 10% of it for many years going forward.
We’re not broke, we’re just too afraid to take on our real masters.
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Take care, Buddyglass. People who take on a bet like that usually get it handed to them on a silver platter.
You’ll note I didn’t take him up on the wager proposed in post #13, which does not address my original claim. Rather I took up him up on what’s proposed in post #11. There he quotes some text of mine and writes “Care to make a wager?”
Essentially I said, “I remember reading something once in the Bible where believers are instructed to care for the poor in non-specific terms.” He replied, “Care to make a wager?” If I agreed, the wager would be on whether I remembered reading something once in the Bible where believers are instructed to care for the poor in non-specific terms.
Even if no such verse actually exists, my incorrectly remembering that it existed would win the wager.
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Buddy, you FIRST asked a question, IE.
“Is it so specific?”
The wager was about your question, not about your remembered passages…
Since you don’t want to wager about that, fine… I won’t play your guessing game about what you have in your pocketsesssssss…
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But isn’t it true that taxing the rich (business owners) only causes increased prices to be passed along to the middle class? So in essence, any increase tax on the rich means a tax increase on the rest of us. And what is the incentive for any of us to aspire to be richer if the gov’t determines that they will take the what we earn and give it to whomever else they choose?
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“Is it so specific?” The wager was about your question…
Even still, I stand by what I said. The Bible, as a whole, does not state that Christians need only assist the poor with food, clothing, shelter and medical care. There are passages that require them to provide those specific things. There are also passages that speak to general care. I suppose you could argue the more specific passages just enumerate the general ones. Or you could argue the general ones imply the believer’s care extend beyond food, clothing, shelter and medical care. Education, for one, comes to mind.
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#6: “according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty line for a family of four is around $26,000”
Very interesting… I grew up in a family of six which lived on about $30,000 (Cdn) per year. Our home was fully paid for. We had hydro, running water, phone and internet (when it came). We had a VCR/DVD player but no cable and no video games. Our clothes were hand-me-downs or from a thrift store. We varied between one or two vehicles, depending on circumstances. I think we had enough to live on, although comparisons with other children hurt sometimes (we had few new toys). But both my parents had grown up in similar circumstances, so they knew how to have a lot of fun without much money.
Recently, my father was laid off from a large company because he was approaching retirement age. My parents now scrape together just enough to live on (about half of what they had before) through Canada Pension Plan cheques (In Canada every worker pays into CPP through wage deductions). We children have found it very hard to start out, so we still depend on them for help. However, family and friends have stepped in (sometimes anonymously) every time there is a great need without us even telling about the need. We have seen abundant proof of God’s provision, not so much of the government’s.
Jesus made a fascinating comment about the poor being always with us (John 12:8). James makes the equally fascinating statement that God has chosen the poor of this world (James 2:5). My poor, hardworking ancestors helped build Canada as pioneers, farmers, and laborers; and I can trace our faith in Christ back at least five generations. That is a priceless legacy that many rich do not possess (Proverbs 13:22).
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My personal experience demonstrates some factors which increase or decrease the hardships of poverty:
Whether you own a house or pay mortgage/rent,
What support base from family and friends you possess,
What kind of lifestyle you are accustomed to, and
Where you live (i.e. in the country a car is essential).
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Here is a good description of the Christian’s responsibilities to the poor:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.’ (Matthew 25:31-40)
For the record, living under a conservative or a liberal government is equally difficult.
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Anthony Bradley already discussed this report on July 20 and received 66 comments so why are we here again
So I’m a bit preplexed here. Why on what is obviously not a slow news day would the editor of WORLD magazine choose to take an other kick at the poor from a week old report rather than comment on the news that has been the topic of conversation for the rest of the world — the shootings in Norway.
Ignoring Norway in order to repeat the same argument about American’s poor. I’m not sure how to properly frame my resposne to this so I’ll quit now
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. . . a good argument for having our welfare money and programs handled by private, nonprofit organizations instead of by the government . . .
I’m wondering if DJFROMNJ ever visited a Salvation Army soup kitchen, as I have. When we drop $20 into a red kettle at Christmas, we believe the charity will turn our money into bread, not stone. Unfortunately, that is not what at least one “Sally” seems to do.
First, you stand in line outdoors where there is no sink to wash your hands. (Chalk one up for medieval alms houses, which had stone wash basins.) At the kitchen, you get a foam plate with a scoop of hard rice, a spoon of crunchy beans, and a slice of white bread. Free! That’s about 500 calories, which is enough to keep body and soul together, but not enough nourishment for men who sleep outdoors and do physical labor or just roam around all day in a condition of want.
But a meal consists of more than calories, right? That’s where Christian charities will do so much more good than government. You carry your food tray into a windowless room crowded with men and women who look like they’ve been transported from the jail holding tank. These people obviously need more than something to eat. A kind word or encouraging smile, if such a thing could be believed. It’s a good thing they’re here at a Christian charity instead of in a store spending food stamps, you think. However, the people consume the free food in an absolute void of hospitality. There is no prayer, no presence of Salvation Army brass, no watchful supervision of staff. The talk among the eaters is desultory, crazy, complaining, or aggressive. Down the hall, a desk clerk slouches behind a window in anticipation of having to process the admissions to the bunk beds upstairs.
The cook enters the dining room. In addition to being manifestly incompetent, he seems to be a bit crazy himself and also a client of the Salvation Army. He announces a bonus serving of mashed potatoes and gravy in return for help cleaning up. Six men volunteer and he picks two. Moments later, while people are still arriving to eat, one of the volunteers starts mopping the floor with strong-smelling ammonia.
The bare facility and meager diet don’t bother me, but I feel morally upset by the improperly cooked rice and beans. Along with the lack of hospitality, this carelessness seems like an intentional personal insult. The people who operate Sally don’t think their distribution of charity is worth the minimum of thought that it takes to soak and boil rice and beans long enough to make the food palatable to men who’ve lost their teeth.
Mother Teresa’s kitchens in India probably boil grubs along with infested grain, but I’d be very surprised if they didn’t cook the food sufficiently.
The Salvation Army seems like an asylum that’s run by the lunatics or a prison that’s operated by the inmates. I’m sure that caring for the needy is tedious work, but the soldiers of the Sally are all away on leave. There’s no organization or supervision, just an industrial process. Nobody expends the effort to say hello, offer a prayer, or organize the clients to do anything constructive to make the dining experience any finer.
The guy behind the desk leaves the office to chase men off the shaded front steps of the building. They weren’t allowed to loiter even during the half hour that the meal is served, while the crunchy beans and hard rice are still rumbling in their stomachs.
I said “bare.” Correction. There’s a photograph on the wall of the man who gave money for the vinyl floor, the folding tables and chairs, and the paint on the wall. I knew him. I heard him say the N word. He inherited his money and got run out of the family business. He had an acre of silk carpet in his home. Though a kind man in some ways, he is no model for men who inherited their disfunction without any money to go with it. I think the old missions on skid row were closer to the mark. No photos of capitalists manquées, but a portrait of a long-haired Jesus or an allegorical painting of the human soul clinging to the cross, in the form of a tattered woman in peril of being swept off a storm-lashed rock.
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I have worked with the poor all of my life and now in my second country. He is correct in saying that almost all of the poor in the USA have more living space than in Europe. Most people in Europe live in small apartments.
I will say that the poor in Russia (where the government clams there is no poverty, and that those living on the streets should just go home) are much, much poorer than the poor in the USA.
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HRW; I guess they need a distraction.
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HRW Ignoring Norway in order to repeat the same argument about American’s poor.
There’s a reason for this pretense of obliviousness. WorldMag and Anders Breivic share a similar predilection for news and analysis from JihadWatch. WorldMag has to figure out how to spin this.
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Redistribution of anyone’s wealth is WRONG, rich or middle class. Just plain wrong. I wish the Left would figure it out that you should get what you earn, not what other people earn.
What about those who can’t earn? Those who are sick? Those who but for public education or publicly sponsored training will never be able to earn? What about those who do earn, but not enough to pay for life saving treatment for themselves or their children.
What about orphans? Or wounded veterans?
Do you truly maintain that taxation of those who can afford it for all of those purposes is “wrong”?
If so, you have a void in your heart and you deserve to live amongst those whom you would condemn to eternal poverty and slow starvation.
And, incidentally what about taxation for public works like roads and ports, or parks or even for support of private industry?
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37 was for NJL.
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“It seems we have 453 of them in this country and their total net worth is about $1.4 TRILLION. Those people, who could fit into a good sized ballroom, could take care of darn near our entire deficit this year. Or maybe could take care of 10% of it for many years going forward.”
And, exactly how does paying for the debt, feed, cloth, or shelter any of the poor?
Why not simply ask for 10% to go to the charities of their heart’s desire. I would wager that most of your 453 billionaires already do give substantially.
Why should we obligate them to pay for government ineptitude instead?
“What about those who can’t earn? Those who are sick? Those who but for public education or publicly sponsored training will never be able to earn? What about those who do earn, but not enough to pay for life saving treatment for themselves or their children.
What about orphans? Or wounded veterans?”
Does it take a tax, for you or anyone else, to hand them food, clothing, or shelter? It does not.
Taxation is not equivalent to charity.
As you note the variation in people’s struggles, a federal program will always fail to meet those specific needs.
Where as you, or anyone else, can easily see beyond just some number, and do a much better job of meeting their needs.
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Scroop rambles on about the lack of hospitality and cooking at a Salvation Army. Having stated his opinion, he has not stated what he offered to do about it, himself.
If you wish things to be better Scroop, perhaps you should cook. Perhaps you should start sitting with those men and build relationships.
Are you any better than the man with silk carpet, or are you far worse, for you recognize the issues, but do nothing about it?
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Scroop, I’m sorry your experience at a Salvation Army soup kitchen was so miserable. You do realize that they are recipients of federal funds as well as private donations? Did you do anything while you were there to make the experience more pleasant for the people around you? One poorly managed Sally shouldn’t put all of them in a bad light.
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THORN is right that, “Taxation is not equivalent to charity.” But some people will take advantage of an opportunity to reclaim their taxes through a government program rather than use their own money. For example, instead of directly supporting an adult child they will let them go on welfare or food stamps or any program for which they qualify because they feel entitled to get their tax money back in government benefits. People resent confiscatory tax rates and want to get their own piece of the pie.
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Did you really say in 17 that Jesus will send you to hell if just one person goes without food, clothing or shelter? I don’t know what Bible you are reading, but clearly there were people during Jesus’ time on earth that went without food, clothing and shelter. Did He send his disciples to hell?
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Maj. Vic #34: “I have worked with the poor all of my life and now in my second country. He is correct in saying that almost all of the poor in the USA have more living space than in Europe. Most people in Europe live in small apartments.
I will say that the poor in Russia (where the government clams there is no poverty, and that those living on the streets should just go home) are much, much poorer than the poor in the USA.”
Larger living space doesn’t necessarily mean that you have money. A small home (bigger than a European apartment) can still house poor people.
Again, do we need to compare our poor to the poor of another country? How poor is poor?
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Since the Salvation Army is rated as making the best use of their donations, SCROOP makes a good case for donating more generously. And since the SA does use goverment funds it has to be very careful about when to pray. I can become “morally upset” by many things, but I doubt that any SA members are using the money to enrich themselves or make sure they have a “job.”
I’ve worked with the homeless in rescue missions and group homes for women recovering from alcoholism. Ungrateful recipients are so few and far between I can only remember one. If it weren’t for the dedication of volunteers and the magnanimous donations of wealthy people, there would be many more on the streets with much less than SCROOP’s SA provided.
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“Again, do we need to compare our poor to the poor of another country? How poor is poor?”
If this is a problem in just defining it, then the government has no chance what so ever of being effective.
We know poor, when we see it. We can also respond to those needs directly and specifically.
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“We know poor, when we see it.”
Thorn, I’m not sure this is always the case.
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MAT 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
That’s my version of the Bible, SOCIAL WORKER. Of course, the Evangelical Reversed Standard Version renders the passage differently:
“Inasmuch as ye did not reduce the overall rates of poverty, compared with the results of government programs, or, alternatively, inasmuch as ye reinforced capitalist incentives and prevented moral hazard.”
Giving charity to ONE person doesn’t discharge the duty, I think, while not giving charity to ONE person flunks you. If ONE is left hungry, naked, or unvisited in prison, Jesus sends you straight to the ovens.
That “outcome based” standard may be overly harsh, unfair, and subversive of the American Way, but it’s what Jesus says, literally. If you want my advice, don’t risk the consequences of ripping up the social safety net. Better too many “upgrades” than ONE person left hungry, naked, or unvisited in prison.
It’s particularly past time that Evangelicals did something about rates of incarceration instead of bragging about their dubious past contributions to abolition and civil rights. Democrats can’t; you social conservatives the only ones who can. So much the worse for Evangelicals.
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Sorry, transcription error. Y’all’s version states:
“Inasmuch as ye did not reduce the overall rates of poverty, compared with the results of government programs, or, alternatively, inasmuch as ye did not reinforce capitalist incentives or did not prevent moral hazard . .”
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Buddy responds with yet another ‘moving goalposts’ type answer:
“Even still, I stand by what I said. The Bible, as a whole, does not state that Christians need only assist the poor with food, clothing, shelter and medical care.”
Well if you’d stated that first, instead of casting doubt on whether there was some specificity involved, then we wouldn’t have even had this discussion…
I don’t think anyone would argue with you… And I don’t think anyone ever stated that we should ONLY provide those things…
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Marvin’s assertion wasn’t that we should only provide these things. His assertion was that we need not continue to give handouts to those who could properly care for themselves…
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But… y’know.. just carry on with your mischaracterization of his argument..
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So Jesus never really needed to die for anyone—we just needed to learn to give to the poor. Sigh..such a reading of scripture.
I have a friend who planned meals for the soup kitchen in her town. I was amazed at what she managed to put together from what they had. The meals were meals she would eat herself. The experience came from her own growing up years. Many of us learned far better ways to stretch a dollar than many of the poor do. Some programs address that problem.
I know our Salvation Army kitchen is nothing like you state, Scroop Moth. They do an amazing work from what I have seen.
I do agree that giving of our tax money is simply NOT charity. It is a giving to Ceaser what is Ceasers. In our country we do have some say, although it is very little. If one wants to give charity, I do not think you would have to look very hard to find lots of outlets, BTW.
I do think the REAL poor are hurt when those who are not are given things they do not NEED and the expectation of more. Parents have the same problem—when to give and when to expect a child to EARN what he wants? The answers are not easy or one-size fits all, as I said. Many on welfare hate it and will do everything possible to get off. Sometimes there are many barriers to doing that. Others just don’t care or feel entitled. How to balance it all, so that our government relects truth and love rather than being enablers?
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And not just “give to the poor,” but to ensure that there is no one, without exception, below the arbitrarily decreed “poverty line” (with this line being drawn according to some semi-socialist government constructed notion of what every person is entitled to.) Failing to achieve Obama’s goals, apparently, renders us all hellbound. This is our blessed hope.
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Well if you’d stated that first, instead of casting doubt on whether there was some specificity involved, then we wouldn’t have even had this discussion…
Here’s what I initially said:
When I said “Is it so specific?”, implying that it isn’t, I was referring to the scriptures as a whole. Again, I stand by that assessment. The scriptures are not “specific” in the sense that they do not exactly specify the manner in which believers are to care for the poor. They do mention some things that must be covered as part of “care”, e.g. food, clothing, shelter, medical, but they do not go so far as to specify that the care we are to extend is comprised exactly by those four things.
Marvin’s assertion wasn’t that we should only provide these things. His assertion was that we need not continue to give handouts to those who could properly care for themselves…
Olasky writs:
The trailing question is this: if someone already has food, clothing, shelter and medical, do the scriptures obligate us to do anything else for him? The rest of the article then strongly suggests the answers is “No”.
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True, Ree, I failed to give the whole enchilada, so to speak.
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These discussions always create mixed emotions because we can not pin down a definition of “poor.”
My bus goes past a subsidized housing project and I can’t help but notice that about a third of the units have satellite TV antennas on them. When I get home to my rabbit ears I think, “They don’t need my help.” Same reaction when I see food stamps going for ice cream and chips.
I don’t believe it is envy because I don’t even want satellite…
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The Bible has much to say about a social safety net; but not much that’s of comfort to our friends on the left. Nobody is (or should) be arguing about whether there are poor people. The legitimate areas for discussion are: 1) Who should be considered poor and who should not? 2) Of the poor, who should be helped and who should not? 3) Whose responsibility is it to help the poor?
1) The Heritage Foundation has shown that many who are officially classified as poor actually have a reasonably comfortable life. Not all…but many. Many of these could have even more creature comforts if only they would work harder or smarter. But they are content as they are, so why bother?
2) Just because somebody is poor, even very poor, that doesn’t mean that they should be helped. The reason for their poverty is relevant. 2 Thess. 3: 10 says, “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.” We are under no moral obligation to help those able to work who just don’t want to. If they starve we may feel sorrow, but we need not feel guilt. On the contrary, we should feel guilt if we support those who can work but don’t want to because we are enabling them in their irresponsibility. You will search the scriptures in vain for any passage saying we should do that.
3) You will also search the scriptures in vain for any passage saying that helping the poor is the responsibility of the government. Charity (and that’s exactly what we should be calling it) should be a private matter. People receiving charity know it is a gift that can be stopped at any time. They are more inclined to feel gratitude and to behave more responsibly. When government gets involved the beneficiaries begin to feel entitled to it. Nobody should ever feel entitled to a gift, to charity, or to welfare.
That sense of entitlement is a cancer that eats away at the soul. Those of us who have received God’s greatest gift, the gift of salvation, know that we must never feel entitled to it. We did not earn it. As Christians, we should understand the importance of a thankful heart. And we should know that we are not helping people when we enable them to feel entitled to that for which they should feel gratitude.
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In defense ot the Salvation Army. I was given the opportunity to help at one church in Italy. The food prep was done by several caring men and women with mostly donated supplies. When a farmer brought a lot of something, the guests were served a lot of it. When a baker brought lots of rolls, the guests were able to eat there and take one or two with them. One day somebody donated gallons of boxed milk so everybody was encouraged to take some with them. We tried to serve the people as the honored guests they were. We joined in the laughter with them and my feeble attempts at several different languages were encouraged and a source of much laughter. The man in charge knew the people and took joy in serving them. We were able to chat with some as we met them on the streets. Many had homes but enjoyed the socialization opportunity so came to eat together. A good thing.
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DAD OF 5 I don’t even want satellite…
The wants of the poor are truly contemptible. Ice cream, chips, endless re-runs of Lucy, Matlock, and Touched by an Angel.
I don’t want such things either.
I WILL arise and go now, and go to Innisfree,
And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made:
Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honey-bee,
And live alone in the bee-loud glade.
The vast quarters of the poor are filled with the roar of AC. The satellite is on all night, because the poor are too tacky just to hear the lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore.
In Norway, the forest homes of the deprived are tiny and absolutely without electricity, though supplied with tax-subsidized ost.
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“If you want my advice, don’t risk the consequences of ripping up the social safety net.”
Yes, if we take your advice, we should all just stand there and do nothing, since we obviously can’t change anything, and will just be burned in the oven.
All you do is complain scroop. You incessantly whine on about poorly cooked food, and lack of hospitality, all the while standing there not doing anything.
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““We know poor, when we see it.”
Thorn, I’m not sure this is always the case.”
If your alluding that sometimes we ignore it, sure. But my point is simply that we know who people are in our community that have real needs. We can easily evaluate the Ethiopian who’s starving, and we can easily see our neighbor who’s lost a job and may lose much more without something soon.
We don’t have to look at last years taxes and decide whether or not to help them. The government just looks at numbers. It offers no relationships.
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Actually, no, that wasn’t what I was alluding to, but you are right; we do sometimes ignore it. What I meant was it’s not always clear when someone is struggling financially. People don’t always advertise it and it’s not always apparent.
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Olasky
But are middle-class folks required to give upgrades to people who already have all of that?
1. no some poor don’t already have all of that
2. since 50% of Americans don’t pay income tax most of the American middle class isn’t asked to do anyting.
3. But if the top 5% of Americans give upgrades to the poor the middle class will benefit directly or indirectly.
Our goal should not be redistribution of income from the middle class to millions of wards of the government who are not poor
Again income redistribution isn’t happening for most of the middle class.
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Harris captures the problem of defining poverty by material goods. Some of the items cited by the report may have come with the apratment — cable, a/c, ceiling fans, etc — are frequently part of the rent not to mention the basic appliances — fridge, freezer, washer, dryer. The transitory nature of poverty also means that somme of the goods may have been purcahsed prior to income loss or medical bankruptcy etc and the goods won’t receive any value if sold second hand. And in many cases, selling cars, computers etc to raise money may have the opposite effect in the long term as both help in the job seeking process.
And lets face it: North America is drowing in an abundance of material goods — its not difficult to acquire things if you don’t mind second hand. I moved and instantly acquired two TVs, four ceiling fans, four appliances, chandelier, couch, and more simply because the previous resident didn’t want it and/or my previous landlord gave me stuff to take with me. Didn’t cost me a dime. How does that measure my wealth?? Thus, we have a serious inability to define poverty/wealth.
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Dad of 5
the poor often don’t often make good choices hence they are poor. Cell phones and satalites are often given out free in exchange for subsribing for years and years often with little credit history.
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Colbert just nailed this report google it and watch it
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Just more right-wing self-justification for being uncharitable of heart. The Heritage Foundation report points out that the “poor” have such luxuries as ceiling fans and refrigerators.
“If you still have the strength to wipe the flies off your eyeballs, you’re not really poor.” — Stephen Colbert, satirically highlighting the essential argument here.
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“What I meant was it’s not always clear when someone is struggling financially. People don’t always advertise it and it’s not always apparent.”
This is true, but no program can really reveal that or meet it either.
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“Harris captures the problem of defining poverty by material goods.
Thus, we have a serious inability to define poverty/wealth.”
Except, that actually makes it much easier to define it.
If these things can all be gained easily in America by their own effort, then this would be a poor measure to run any charity or program on.
Whether it is luxury or not, becomes irrelevant. It doesn’t take a government program to obtain them.
Poor is certainly those without food, clothing, and/or shelter. Whether being that way a long time, or from recent income/job loss.
We can always begin here as the definition, as they are the general needs of the poor.
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“Just more right-wing self-justification for being uncharitable of heart. The Heritage Foundation report points out that the “poor” have such luxuries as ceiling fans and refrigerators.”
Who is being uncharitable Conan? Many right-wingers here give a lot to charity. I serve as a member of the Lion’s Club. You should look up who they serve if you are not familiar. You also must realize that charity does not just mean giving money. Someone can be charitable by giving their time or other goods.
The discussion is not over whether to give, but how to give and to who needs it.
The government can only paint a broad stroke when it comes to charity. It does not understand, nor can it relate to specific needs. It sees numbers and sheets of paper, not people. This is part of why it’s inefficient. As a machine it can only hand out, it can’t relate.
So get past the accusations, and realize that when a conservative is talking against government programs, that doesn’t mean we aren’t charitable or don’t want to help the poor. We fully want that, and we fully want it to be the best means and most effective ways possible.
We aren’t worried about ceiling fans or cable tv. We are worried about food, clothing, housing.
We had a recent church member lose his entire home in a fire recently. Lost everything. Great guy, quiet, kinda goofy looking, but always wore some of the best suits. I mean just amazing suits….all burned and gone now. Who meets his needs the best and the fastest? The church did.
If he had sat around waiting on the government, he’d still be sitting in charred rubble. They’d want paperwork, they’d want last year’s taxes. They don’t see him.
That’s real charity by the church. It sees the needs, it gives. No 2nd hands.
And that is something else the government strips away from charity by playing the middle man. It strips away the joy and emotions in giving that both parties experience. It can’t replace that. And it is one of the most foundational purposes in giving though because giving is about building relationships.
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On the definition of poverty. From a policy angle, it becomes something like a calculation of how much is needed to cover a set of basic needs (food, shelter, health). There are some obvious gray areas on the margins. One can read the Heritage report as a kind of skirmish along this frontier, a support for arguments seeking a lower standard.
In contrast, another more abstract definition would be 50% of median disposable income in a society.
As to texts about government: doing justice to the poor is typically cited as a sign of righteousness in the ruling authority. It’s used of the Messianic King (see Ps 72), Job — man of power — is praised for this.
The limitations in the Bible (and what makes it difficult for us) lie in the difference between our industrial era and the rather different social settings of the ancient world.
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Thorn: We had a recent church member lose his entire home in a fire recently. Lost everything. Great guy, quiet, kinda goofy looking, but always wore some of the best suits. I mean just amazing suits….all burned and gone now. Who meets his needs the best and the fastest? The church did.
That’s great. I’m sure there are many stories like that around the country.
What if fifty members of your church had similar losses? Say a tornado comes through and leaves 15 families in your church homeless. While I am quite sure you’d all have the desire to help, would you have the means?
What if your church member’s agnostic neighbor with no church family had a fire. Who would help him?
For all the criticism you can heap on it, some of it justified, the government is in many ways the best means to give aid to Americans even-handedly and consistently.
We aren’t worried about ceiling fans or cable tv. We are worried about food, clothing, housing.
Then why pay any attention to a report that implies some poor people are not poor enough to merit compassion because they own some things the Heritage Foundation considers to be luxuries? This is at least the second thread World has started on the topic.
As I said in the other one, there are many ways that poor people can own things such as TV sets and X-Boxes that do not in any way mean they are not still poor and in need of aid.
And in what world is owning a refrigerator a sign that the person is living an easy life? I’ll grant that the poor in a much poorer nation might not have even that, but it’s hardly a sign that you’re on easy street.
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Nobody has responded to Jesus’ imposition of “mandatory sentencing” upon those who let just one person go hungry, naked, or unvisited.
Tough, isn’t it?
You could call Jesus willfully unfair and unconstitutionally cruel and unusual. After all, He goes on in the same discourse to foretell, “ye have the poor always with you.”
So how can a Christian reconcile these conflicting facts? On the one hand, we have an absolute moral requirement to eliminate want upon pain of damnation. On the other hand, we have an empirical prediction that we will never eliminate want. SOCIAL WORKER fairly asks, “Did He send his disciples to hell?”
Einstein himself might not be able to harmonize the two propositions. It’s as baffling as the fact that observers measure the same speed of light even though they are traveling at different speeds toward the source of the light (i.e., they are “in relative motion”).
Einstein’s solution to the invariability of the speed of light killed off the 19th century notion of the ether. The solution to the absolute moral requirement to prevent hunger will eliminate Olaskyism, because it says that measurements of relative want (or merit) don’t matter. In every social frame of reference, the moral demand is always the same and want is always unmet. You’re not done when you determine that the square footage is enough. Ye have the poor always with you. You cannot use one frame of reference to determine that someone in a different situation is not “truly poor.” No policy will ever achieve “Sorry, no.” You must say “yes” until you have nothing left, because the philanthropic duty is unqualified and unlimited. If nothing else, this is an ethical mood. Olaskyism needs to be destroyed. Poverty isn’t absolute, but Jesus’ command (and it’s accompanying prediction) is the same in every physical culture and applicable in all times and places.
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“What if fifty members of your church had similar losses? Say a tornado comes through and leaves 15 families in your church homeless. While I am quite sure you’d all have the desire to help, would you have the means?”
Didn’t you see the aftermath of the Alabama and MS. Tornados. Unlike the media coverage which is no longer existant, there are many many churches and charities who continue to help those who suffered from those events.
One of our ladies in our church runs a ministry dedicated to organizing other churches and people for delivering assistance to those outside our area, esp for big events like this. Many other denominations do the same.
They are often the first people there and the last to leave.
“What if your church member’s agnostic neighbor with no church family had a fire. Who would help him?”
Same way as before. Many in our neighborhood a few years ago were hit by tornados. We didn’t just cut trees and branches and clear debris for just our buddies, but for those who needed it as well.
” the government is in many ways the best means to give aid to Americans even-handedly and consistently.”
It can provide man power, at short notice, that’s about it. Having an army at your disposal to concentrate on delivery of goods and rescue operations in major events is great. Beyond that most people’s needs are specific. The broad brush fails to be consistent.
They have a hard enough time doing things well even for big catastrophes…or do you not remember how botched Louisiana’s and the Feds response was to Katrina?
“Then why pay any attention to a report that implies some poor people are not poor enough to merit compassion because they own some things the Heritage Foundation considers to be luxuries?”
It’s important to discuss how they define poor. Why programs are ineffective.
“As I said in the other one, there are many ways that poor people can own things such as TV sets and X-Boxes that do not in any way mean they are not still poor and in need of aid.”
Aye, but what broad brush can determine that? How many buy an Xbox because they have food stamps?…instead of getting off food stamps and buying food with their money?
If we can’t quite decide with a broad brush what people are doing or what they need, then a broad program will not be efficient.
“I’ll grant that the poor in a much poorer nation might not have even that, but it’s hardly a sign that you’re on easy street.”
In Belize, they buy satellite/tv before fridges, because they just don’t have a need for a fridge. Most people don’t grow their own chickens in America, so lack of fridge would typically be a sign of poverty here.
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“Nobody has responded to Jesus’ imposition of “mandatory sentencing” upon those who let just one person go hungry, naked, or unvisited.”
I don’t believe you ever responded to my question as to why you just stood there and did nothing, Scroop.
And several people replied to the ridiculous insinuations of your post.
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Scroop (#33): Your description matches a soup kitchen that I volunteered at during my college course.
(#74) Christians are not expected to solve world poverty, but to help out those whom we see have need. In Matthew 25, the phrase is “one of the least of these”, in both verse 40 and 45. It isn’t about how much we do but why we do it that is important. “For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.” (Mark 9:41)
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the fridge comes with rent — hence the possession of a fridge measures nothing.
THORN — great work with the church but only the gov’t possess the information and manpower to ensure no one is over looked.
I thought Brownie did a heck’va job during Katrina
the transitory nature of poverty makes it difficult to use material possessions as a measuring stick. to define poverty income levels are far more useful.
a satalite (or cell) is typically given away free here with a multi-year contract whereas cable companies demand a security deposit thus you will see more satalite dishes in poor neighbourhoods than in wealthy neighbourhoods. And after not paying the monthly subscribers fees, the dish is nothing more than an ornmanent which measures nothing about the poverty level of the people reside in that house.
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“great work with the church but only the gov’t possess the information and manpower to ensure no one is over looked.”
Like i said, broad issues have their applicability esp for man power. Information, less so. Info is easy to come by for those who are local.
Which is why, it is the feds best interest to allow local leaders to have the chain of command in most situations.
“I thought Brownie did a heck’va job during Katrina”
Considering the ineptitude of La., yes, possibly could have done even better had he realized their ineptitude, sooner.
” to define poverty income levels are far more useful.”
Except this can be misleading as well. If you have most of these other things (fridges, clothing, cable), then your costs to live on just food and housing lessens the income you need.
The government, looks at last year tax returns most often. If you made 50k last year self employed, but lost your business, you’re screwd.
The only way to know what a persons needs are, is to the know the person. The feds, suck at that. Which is why a broad brush fails to handle specifics, and largely why it fails at efficiency, especially for non emergency response situations.
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“the fridge comes with rent — hence the possession of a fridge measures nothing.”
Not all apartments do. Many homes don’t come with it.
The fact is, is that if you arguing, like Conan is, that amenities or even income are not necessarily reflective of proverty…then the broad brush approach by the feds is all the more so, unconvincing.
You can only come to the conclusion that direct knowledge of a person’s situation is necessary to accurately and efficiently meet their needs.
You can’t base a broad policy on not knowing the specific living conditions.
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Thorn: The fact is, is that if you arguing, like Conan is, that amenities or even income are not necessarily reflective of proverty…then the broad brush approach by the feds is all the more so, unconvincing.
You can only come to the conclusion that direct knowledge of a person’s situation is necessary to accurately and efficiently meet their needs.
Only if you intend to make tedious, painful, and hairsplitting judgments about which people in very similar circumstances do and don’t “deserve” help, and then add the costs of defending yourself in 10,000 lawsuits to the cost of the program you’re administering.
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Conan is probably right about the lawsuits, which is why it’s probably wiser to just cut those programs altogether. There are enough Christians, and churches and mosques and atheist charities and liberal charities to more than take care of the real needs. This would force those (like Conan, Scroop and HRW) to put their own money where their mouth is…rather than YOUR money where their mouth is. ;–)
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Which is why, it is the feds best interest to allow local leaders to have the chain of command in most situations.
I would agree except this usually leads to a Dickensian race to the bottom between competing jurisdictions and/or attempts by local governments to bribe welfare recipents to take free bus tickets and cash to other jurisdictions. (welfare is a local concern in Canada and this actually happened until provincal governments stepped in)
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Only if you intend to make tedious, painful, and hairsplitting judgments about which people in very similar circumstances do and don’t “deserve” help, and then add the costs of defending yourself in 10,000 lawsuits to the cost of the program you’re administering.
I don’t think lawsuits would be a problem but distinguishing between the deserving and undeserving poor is far more ineffecient and teduious than simply giving the poor the money. Conservatives since the Elizabethean have attempted to separate these two and have failed yet the attempt to insert morality continues unabated and at great expense.
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Debra,
I pay my taxes without complaining and am glad the poor deserving and undeserving are benefiting. Yes my money and my mouth are on the same page.
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HRW: I pay my taxes without complaining and am glad the poor deserving and undeserving are benefiting. Yes my money and my mouth are on the same page.
Same here.
And Debra, you’re very naive if you really think there’s enough private charity to meet the needs. But I suspect when you say “real needs,” you have in mind telling people who have a 10-year-old TV and a telephone that they must not be really poor.
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Ha. So it only takes the full force of the Canadian government to make you take care of the poor and needy? You socialists are such jokers.
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Debra — im not sure what you mean. I pay taxes and don’t complain. what does that have to do with the “full force” of the Canadian gov’t? full force of the Cdn gov’t —- trust me thats not much. People don’t have to be compelled if they feel its for the general good of the community of which they feel they belong to.
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Debra: HRW and I are saying that we support policies of levying taxes and using the funds to provide aid to the poor. And we do it knowing that we’ll be among the taxpayers.
That’s not having to be “forced.” That’s willingness. Can you seriously not tell the difference?
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If it takes a law to get you to put your money where your mouth is, it’s not charity, it’s force. If all the belly-aching socialist liberals who CLAIM to care for the poor actually DID care, taxes wouldn’t be needed to care for the poor.
Christians are the truly charitable givers because they give out of love and respect for God’s commands—and traditionally have done so. Edifices and monuments to Christian charity are all over the place, yet you ignore that. You’d rather pass marginally effective laws that force other people to give to your idea of charity.
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If the charitable givers were able to meet the needs there never would have been social programs in the first place. They would have been unnecessary.
I’ve noticed in these debates that many of the opponents of social programs focus on the motives of the giver, “true charity” vs. compulsory (via taxation) contributions.
Why does that matter? There are people who need help. I don’t care if the help comes from cheerful willing givers or begrudging taxpayers, the result is what’s important. What good does it do to be satisfied that all the money available came from willing givers, if the amount of money they give is only a fraction of what’s needed?
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“Only if you intend to make tedious, painful, and hairsplitting judgments about which people in very similar circumstances do and don’t “deserve” help, and then add the costs of defending yourself in 10,000 lawsuits to the cost of the program you’re administering.”
It’s not that hair splitting, esp for the government, as most of it can be handled by charities. You can’t sue a charity for not giving to you. Just like you can’t sue your neighbor for not giving you their money, just because they helped a neighbor on the other side of the street.
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“I would agree except this usually leads to a Dickensian race to the bottom between competing jurisdictions and/or attempts by local governments to bribe welfare recipents to take free bus tickets and cash to other jurisdictions.”
I did say most situations. Obviously when the system is being abused, that is a lovely argument for a higher government (state or fed) to step in and clean up the mess.
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Thorn: You can’t sue a charity for not giving to you. Just like you can’t sue your neighbor for not giving you their money, just because they helped a neighbor on the other side of the street.
Right, exactly. And so the neo-pagan woman who is refused help from a Christian church has no recourse. Nor does the Christian family who finds that the charity ran out just the day before they needed it, or the non-religious man who gets laid off and can’t find work for over a year.
The question is, which is more important: The motives of the givers, or the needs of recipients?
I say, it’s more important to meet the needs. It’s nice if we can do that purely by voluntary giving, but that rarely if ever happens, so taxation is often needed.
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CONAN, how many Christian churches or ministries refuse to help anyone who needs it? Compare that with all the single mothers who couldn’t get AFDC if a man was living with them. Government bureaucracies are not compassionate.
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“If the charitable givers were able to meet the needs there never would have been social programs in the first place. They would have been unnecessary.”
There is no such thing as Utopia, Conan. You can’t fix “poor” with money. It’s impossible. As long as this earth is around, the poor will exist.
“Why does that matter? There are people who need help. I don’t care if the help comes from cheerful willing givers or begrudging taxpayers, the result is what’s important.”
Because the results of the government handling this has just been creating dependents, more poor. Not fewer.
To help the poor, no longer be poor, you must encourage, teach, and help them regain self sufficiency, not dependency.
They are just modern slaves to the state if they are just dependents.
This is WHY it matters who does the giving. And how it is given.
“What good does it do to be satisfied that all the money available came from willing givers, if the amount of money they give is only a fraction of what’s needed?”
Yet you assume a smaller fraction, will add up to more via taxes and redistribution?? ? ? Your math skills stink.
If they don’t have enough to give in the first place, taking a fraction from them, won’t give you more. The whole is only going to equal the sum of it’s parts.
Even the government overspending its budget, hasn’t solved that dilemma.
The reason, that a fraction of money, from a willful giver, can go much farther has multiple reasons. It has to be used efficiently. It must go to who needs it first. (We do that all the time with organ donor lists as an example). It doesn’t have to be money, it can be time, work, goods. It builds relationships. It weeds out con artists and frauds. The receiver can’t assume it’ll be there next week. He feels the weight of others sacrificing to help.
It doesn’t allow him to become a dependent.
The list can go on and on. The benefits of personal giving and private charities far outweighs the government hand out.
Have you ever visited a good charity? Have you ever gotten involved yourself?
Perhaps you have, and like Scroop you just stood there and complained. Whining about the quality of rice all day, while doing nothing about it. Further not recognizing that most of recipients could have been eating out of garbage cans, and to them the rice was amazing.
See if you get involved, it doesn’t leave you unchanged. It doesn’t leave them unchanged. That relationship can never be replaced by a tax induced hand out.
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“I say, it’s more important to meet the needs. It’s nice if we can do that purely by voluntary giving, but that rarely if ever happens, so taxation is often needed.”
And in all these years of taxation, where have you solved the problem of “poverty”?
It fails. People still fall through the cracks.
And what neo-pagan woman is going to a church for help? It’s more likely a church would be coming to them, having heard from a neighbor their distress.
No charity or church turns down someone in true need. Even if they don’t have the resources, they can always find someone or another group to help.
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. . Perhaps . . like Scroop you just stood there and complained. . .
THORN, your presumption must be as willful and mendacious as it’s repetitious. I wasn’t going to account for myself but your false accusation has become a general theme (SOCIALWORKER#41 DEBRA#82 ). That’s disgusting. Y’all don’t know all I did or didn’t do at SALLY, nor how much money I’ve given. But so what? I could try and dazzle this blog (again) with tales of my devotion to charity, but readers will still despise me for my views which they take as proof of bad character. Again, so what? Even if I really am Mr. Scrooge, my observations appear to be shared by another poster (PHOS#77).
Here’s the thing: You can’t start judging who’s “the truly poor,” as Olasky does, without being willing to entertain questions about who’s truly charitable. In my experience I’ve seen nothing to support the axiom that private charity is better than government welfare. Whatever you thing ought to be the case.
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“THORN, your presumption must be as willful and mendacious as it’s repetitious. I wasn’t going to account for myself but your false accusation has become a general theme.”
Well when you don’t offer what you did to make it better, one can only assume you stood there.
Considering you still haven’t spoken to why you just stood there complaining, and have just gotten defensive, what’s the deal?
That’s okay, just get involved. Imagine the difference you could make if you donated some rice cookers, or cooked yourself, or sat on the steps talking to these guys, or install a sink.
Money is not enough, how you get involved speaks far more volumes, than any dollar. You are great at recognizing the needs, the inefficiency, the incompetence. But don’t stand there idle waiting for someone else to fix those problems.
“You can’t start judging who’s “the truly poor,” as Olasky does, without being willing to entertain questions about who’s truly charitable.”
So long as we don’t criticize your charity, right Scroop?
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Debra — to add to Conan’s 91, I’m not being forced. I continiously vote for a political party (the NDP) who continously advocate for more social programs and higher tax rates for my income group than either ruling party (Liberal or Conservative). So not only am I approving the tax rates, I’m voting for more.
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All Evangelical arguments reduce to ad hominem attacks.
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“All Evangelical arguments reduce to ad hominem attacks.”
What’s ad hominem there Scroop? Deflect much?
How many times did you attack the cook’s ability in your post about Sal Army?
It’s fair to criticize his work, but not yours?????????????????????
Because you know what he’s thinking right?
“Well this guy’s just standing there with this look of condemnation on his face, not doing anything…I’ll make sure he gets the bad pot of rice…”
I respect the insight you have on the matter. I fully agree that some charities whether public or private, may not be efficient, that they can both use better methods and improve.
But I will sit here and personally rebuke you, if your just going to criticize all day, while not taking it upon yourself to do anything about it.
That goes for Phos as well, if he recognizes the problems, and just sits on it. It goes for any of us who do that.
Your preaching to the wrong choir here. You should be talking to the Salvation Army about what you experienced, and politely offer to help make changes. Or did you personally experience it? You don’t really ever say. They ain’t gonna see it here, and they ain’t gonna care unless your willing to get your hands dirty too.
At least the cook was working his tail off in the kitchen, while you were assessing the pictures on the wall.
Do you get my point? PUT UP or SHUT UP.
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How do you know I didn’t do anything constructive about the situation I reported? How do you know I have not helped the poor with my time, work, and money?
I don’t agree that my failure to describe my charitable efforts, both at that Sally and elsewhere, requires you to conclude that I’m an idle critic.
I believe you are making up false accusations against me in order to kill the message. Fine, I report, you decide. Neither of us cares what the other thinks at this point, nor do other readers, most likely.
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“I don’t agree that my failure to describe my charitable efforts, both at that Sally and elsewhere, requires you to conclude that I’m an idle critic.”
I’d be more inclined to believe you if you did describe at least some effort whether yours or not.
Until then, your criticism is useless.
It would be like noticing a leak on a boat, but instead of notifying the crew, you call a friend to whine about the old rickety boat and how the paint color doesn’t match your outfit. All the while, the boat just sinks.
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When I visited the Sally, I stopped disorderly behavior (loud profanity and fighting words) by one of the guests and thus shielded innocent people who were bothered and alarmed. When this occurred, an old, impoverished couple were clasping hands with their heads bowed. After getting the troublemaker to sit down, I summoned the reluctant desk clerk who complained, “you don’t have to make a big deal.”
I worked at Catholic soup kitchens in two cities. Once, I peeled hundreds of old, smelly, hard boiled eggs while reciting the rosary at the request of a nun, which was going the extra mile. I would put up chairs and mop when nobody else would stay. I washed tables and poured water and let other volunteers do the gratifying work of serving the stale donuts.
I gave guests rides home in the rain or when they were on crutches, or just too fat to walk in the heat. I filled out dozens of tax returns, desperately trying to save people the expense of immediate gratification at H&R Block. I met people at the library to apply online for unemployment and Medicaid.
I bought a bicycle for a man to get to work, an experiment that lasted until payday, because he was a crackhead and so of course he missed work the next day.
I paid for car repairs.
I’ve been goody two shoes since HS. One summer I held the heads of ancient women in Latin America while they got dental work. The compound of oil and smoke ash in their hair has still not washed off my hands!
By working late into the night at my job, I made lots of time to beg for United Way.
Last summer on a road trip, I stopped for 5 stranded vehicles. (A family in a camper had a clogged air filter, which I simply removed. They were waiting all afternoon for a relative to come because they didn’t have money for road service.)
I let a young man live in my home 3 yrs. when his mother threw him out of the house. I tutored him and he graduated from HS. When he started work I payed all the deposits for an apartment and lights. It was very flattering when he asked me how to get to heaven (you can’t, of course, God picks you).
Best of all, I offered to pay for an abortion. So, your opinions of me are vindicated, after all. When the woman unwisely refused, I paid for a telephone, many bags of groceries, and provided transportation to her medical checkups, and shopping, and played with her daughter and made nice photographs of them. She had a little boy who grew up naked and filthy and is now a presentable young man who could be a talented athlete or a crackhead, but unfortunately not both, which means I’m afraid. His father went to prison due to the minor medical problem for which society was determined to ruin him and everyone in his life.
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SCROOP, I wish you’d make it easier to have a nice conversation with you. Really. Do you have some Norwegian ancestry?
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Good guess, Louise! Not only that, but Norwegian missionary ancestry. This explains my fanaticism. A great aunt succumbed of fever in India, and two were Schwestern. My Norwegian paternal grandparents were carpenter/farmers in the Midwest who converted to Fundamentalism and built a nice wooden church to stand as a rebuke to Lutherans. My name comes from a farm about 60 km from Oslo. My relatives taught me to say tak for maten.
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All I asked, was what you had done for Sally.
Why all the bitterness?
You stopped a fight, but you recognized so many more things…why do nothing about those?
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You made two false accustations — that I was idle and that I stood around complaining.
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