Willow Creek splits with Exodus International
Willow Creek Community Church has ended a decades-long partnership with Exodus International, the world’s largest ministry that addresses homosexuality in the church. The South Barrington, Ill., megachurch’s decision to split with the organization is one of a number of recent public separations from Christian organizations that promote a biblical perspective on same-sex relationships.
Though Willow Creek made the decision in 2009, it wasn’t made public until June.
Alan Chambers, president of Exodus, said he believes the separation occurred because Willow Creek gave in to pressure from gay activists. In recent years, Soulforce, whose mission is to persuade Christian organizations to accept homosexuality, had targeted Willow Creek.
“Willow Creek is a strong church,” Chambers pointed out, but he is nonetheless “deeply saddened to see that Willow Creek isn’t going to offer strong discipleship for people struggling with same-sex attractions.”
In a statement obtained by The Christian Post, Scott Vaudrey, Willow Creek’s director of pastoral care and leader of its elder response team, said, “It is true that Willow Creek discontinued its formal relationship with Exodus. In making this move, we were not making a social or political statement. We were simply in a season of reviewing and clarifying some of our affiliations with outside organizations.”
Exodus and Willow Creek’s relationship began in the late 1980s, with the megachurch being one of the first and largest churches to officially sign on with the organization. The relationship began as an informal partnership but became more formal when Willow Creek joined the Exodus Church Association.
Exodus helped Willow Creek leaders work with people experiencing same-sex attraction and would often refer people to Willow Creek’s ministries. Chambers spoke at the megachurch and attended several conferences there as well. He said that while the relationship had been positive, he believes Willow Creek eventually began to “rethink how they were being viewed.”
Other ministries have dropped Exodus as well, including New Direction, a Canadian ministry that chose to end its partnership with Exodus in 2009. A year earlier, two ministries that focus on issues of sexuality, Where Grace Abounds and Mastering Life Ministries, also split from Exodus. Representatives from Mastering Life said their decision was not over a doctrinal disagreement but was a private matter.
Exodus also recently lost its tax-exempt status in New Zealand.
In recent years, other organizations like Exodus that take a biblical position on sexuality have had a falling out with other groups that appeared to be like-minded. In Canada, the New Democratic Party petitioned the Canadian government to eliminate the charity status of all organizations that assist people battling same-sex attraction. The government has yet to rule on the matter. Also, TOMS Shoes chose to end a partnership it had formed with Focus on the Family in early July over Focus’ stance on homosexuality.
“It’s a disappointing trend within churches and Christian-owned ministries,” Chambers said. “[These ministries are] feeling the pressure to distance themselves from their Christian friends and are afraid to stand in the public market and say ‘this is what we believe.’ It’s a marker of things to come.”

















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back to top144 Comments to “Willow Creek splits with Exodus International”
Oh, boy, now what? Can it be true that Willow Creek really caved?
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Wow. How horribly sad.
I suppose we ought to expect more of it, though. Sides are being chosen, and many “churches” are going to want large crowds and fun programs over the Gospel.
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It looks like God is using this issue to really shake up and, hopefully, to purify the church.
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That’s what I think, too.
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I would not truth Willow Creek Community Church… Any Church that believe the Cross is hindering people from coming to Christ has issues.
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Matthew 24:9-14
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
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I would not TRUST Willow Creek Community Church… Any Church that believe the Cross is hindering people from coming to Christ has issues.
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From the Christianity Today article on this, one man’s opinion:
Emphasis mine.
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“Churches are realizing that while there is a small contingent of the gay community responding to language like ‘freedom from homosexuality’ or ‘freedom is possible,’ the vast majority strongly disagree. They’re angry and they believe it’s impossible to change, and to hear this is so offensive that they will have nothing to do with Christians. So I think churches, in response to that vast majority who say, ‘We’re not interested,’ have decided to look at other approaches in an attempt to connect with the gay community on at least some level. That doesn’t mean that churches disagree with the language of ‘freedom from homosexuality’ doctrinally; they’ve just found that it doesn’t work on a social level.“
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Translation lets leave God’s Word behind because it is clear that homosexuality is called a sexual sin, and those in society and the GLBT Community do not want to hear about it. So we just wink at their sexual sins and never address it. The problem with that view is the person is still trapped in sexual sin and no one is trying to help them uderstand that they need to repent and turn to Christ. They can not be a Christian an live that lie.
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You see folk people who view that way are willing to surrender God’s Word to make an connect with the gay community on at least some level. You can make all the connection you want it does not change God’s Word it is a sexual sin and Chirstians can not support sexual sins. Those who do have a problem with God and His Word.
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they’ve just found that it doesn’t work on a social level.“
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This statement troubles me… What if salavation thur Jesus Christ does not work on a social level are they willing to surrender that also?
What if believing that God’s Word is 100% true does not work on a social level are they willing to surrender that also?
What point will people be willing to stand up for the Gospel of Christ and the Cross?
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I am done now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Translation lets leave God’s Word behind because it is clear that homosexuality is called a sexual sin, and those in society and the GLBT Community do not want to hear about it. So we just wink at their sexual sins and never address it.
His whole point is that your translation is not what Willow Creek’s disassociation from Exodus actually means. It does not mean Willow Creek is now “okay” with homosexuality.
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Please Willow Creek is know for surrendering the Gospel of Christ in order not to offend people. They surrendering the Cross because they found that it doesn’t work on a social level.
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The view of Mark Yarhouse, executive director of the Institute for the Study of Sexual Identity at Regent University, that you presented mean just that. If it doesn’t work on a social level you surrender that part of the Word of God in order reach them. The problem is you are not reaching them for Chirst because you have suirrender the Word of God.
The sad part is Christian are buying into that lie from the enemey of God.
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In an interview back in the 90’s Willow Creek Community Church Pastor spoke to ABC Nightlines Special. Where he acknowledge that they have removed all references to the Christian Faith from their building. The reason it was not work on a social level. They believe it was stopping people from coming to Christ. He also talked about how they do not use The Word of God in their sermons, because it was stopping people from coming to Christ. They would only use it in Bible Studies and small groups. They believe in what is called the Seeker Movement. Which means ever one is seeking something and any thing that stops someone from finding the answer is removed, in order to help people find the answer.
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#8 “Mark Yarhouse, executive director of the Institute for the Study of Sexual Identity at Regent University…”
I wonder why Pat Robertson’s so-called Christian University needs a whole institute to study sexual identity. A quick reading of Genesis 1 and 2 should be all one needs, shouldn’t it? How bizarre!
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The Apostle Paul was not ashamed of the Gospel. Apparently Willow Creek is.
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Kyle A – the sad part is other Churches will follow Willow Creek ’s lead.
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If they remove all references to the Christian faith from their building, how do people find them? Isn’t the word “Church” which is part of their name a reference to the Christian faith?
I attended a church for a few years that had no other references to the faith, other than their name (Calvary Church), on the outside of the building, and no permanently mounted cross or any other symbols in the auditorium where worship is held. They used a portable cross sometimes during worship, and made extensive use of computer graphics displayed on two large screens.
I think visual symbols enhance worship, because we are physical beings and not just spiritual – the more of our senses involved in worship the better. But visual symbols are not necessary for worship.
Not using the Word of God in sermons, though – that’s nonsense. I listen to a sermon to hear the Word of God. My husband sometimes says that if he had to cut either the Scripture reading or his sermon from the service, he’d cut his sermon, because the Word is more important than his words.
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The thing is that Willow Creek and other such operations are not really churches – they are businesses.
Their metrics of success are butts in the seats and favorable press in the culture.
Churches that work along business models will inevitably gravitate toward appeasing the culture, no matter how debased the culture becomes. They cease to be churches.
Any marketing person (i.e. television advertising person) will tell you that to sell more widgets to the most folks, you re-tool your widgets to appeal to the coarsest demographics; that way you get the most sales, the more dollars in the coffers, the more staff you can hire to bring you coffee in your executive suite.
It is not (even remotely) Christianity at all.
They are spiritual lingerie shops – the more holes in their products, the better they sell.
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Martin’s article seems to be a bit misleading. Martin appears to suggest that Willow Creek ended its relationship with Exodus because Exodus is an “organization[] that promote[s] a biblical perspective on same-sex relationships.”
Is this really the most reasonable inference to be drawn? Hardly.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Willow Creek’s leadership has changed its position on whether gay sex is sin. To the extent that Martin is suggesting this, it would seem to border on libel.
It’s far more likely that Willow Creek is not comfortable with Exodus’s continued advocacy for reparative therapy–a therapy technique that encourages gay people to undergo counseling to alter their sexual orientation. Reparative therapy has been widely discredited, and is even criticized by numerous evangelical psychologists who otherwise believe that gay sex is forbidden by Scripture. Even NARTH has backed away from advocating reparative therapy in recent years, seemingly acknowledging a general skepticism toward the merits of the technique.
Exodus seems to have staked its identity on reparative therapy. Now that the technique has largely been debunked, I suspect that many churches see no reason to maintain a relationship with an organization whose identity if based on disproven theories about homosexuality.
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Pauline the catch is they make it sound like a church but what they are, are leading people astray.
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evan they may be backing away because of that or they may be backing away becuase people are demanding the CHurch support the GLBT Community. The problem is we will most likly never know for sure.
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Roy,
Maybe we’ll never know. But in the absence of any concrete evidence, I believe that we as Christians have an obligation not to presume the worst about Willow Creek’s leadership. Martin seems not to have done this in penning this drive-by piece.
It’s this kind of journalism that makes me wonder whether WorldMag isn’t just a Christian version of the National Enquirer.
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Evan,
Exodus’s methods don’t work for everyone, but according to the testimonies of others, they do work for some. The failures don’t disprove the successes. And only with this specific issue would there ever be pressure to stop attempting to help people overcome sinful inclinations because the attempt is often unsuccessful.
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evan
Do to pass actions of Willow Creek’s leadership it does lead to question their fatihfulness to God and His Word.
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What is missing is the real question does Exodus present the Gospel of Jesus Christ and do they call the people to repent of their sins.
A does Willow Creek’s leadership present the Gospel of Jesus Christ and do they call the people to repent of their sins.
My concern of Willow Creek’s leadership goes back to past actions, an as a Minister I do question their relationship with Christ.
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We know far more about a person and an organization from what they do than from what they say or don’t say. Scott Vaudrey, Willow Creek’s director of pastoral care, may say that “In making this move, we were not making a social or political statement,” but indeed, — they are.
I think that Willow Creek may be entering the same realm of ambiguity that Obama entered when he “said” (or campaigned) that he believed that marriage is exclusively the union of one man and one woman. He had to say that to get elected. When elected, however, none of his actions backed up his disingenuous verbal assurances. But his supporters do not judge my actions. They decide ONLY on the basis of rhetoric and only what they want to hear.
Willow Creek may want to live in the same “cake-and-eat-it-too” territory, saying that they still believe homosexuality is a sin but we don’t want to support those who actively and truly believe that it is a sin and that victory over this sin is possible. So, don’t worry, we will never really call it a sin in sermons or if we do say it, we won’t really mean it when it matters.
I am speculating to some degree, but that is how it smells.
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But it is undeniable that churches who cease calling for real repentance can attract more people these days.
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*I should have put “churches” (above at #30) in quotes.
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#22
Therapies and treatments come and go as politically expedient. There are MANY people who have found Exodus and its off-shoots to be extremely helpful.
There are others for whom it doesn’t work.
Like ANY therapy (have you ever read the actual statistics on how well therapies for depression work? They are abysmal. They don’t work for the VAST majority…but yet, they aren’t discredited, because they are what is presently “accepted.”) Since homosexuality is no longer classified as a “problem”, the therapies that help to fix it are no longer considered “credible.”
It has nothing to do with how well the therapies do or don’t work.
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I was shocked hereing of this Willow Creek action. The fact that it happened in 2009 and just became public now and with the vaguest of explanation makes it seem to be something even they know is shameful.
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#25 Evan,
And interview with the president of Exodus over its split with another organization is hardly a ‘drive-by piece’. As someone involved in the actual split, his insights as a participant are first-hand. We live in times when churches are being encouraged to soft-pedal or embrace people who place their identity in homosexuality rather than Christ as ministers. To question why this church is splitting from one of the most effective ministries of its kind is quite valid.
It sounds like you just have a serious problem with Exodus. You’re not alone. Homosexualists on the blog practically spit when someone brings up Exodus—or indeed, any organization that doesn’t soft-pedal the sin of homosexuality.
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I don’t know that churches need to even have an association with a particular ministry. I think they can refer to it if they choose. However, it does seem that things are always getting complicated.
In the church there should be wise and godly men and women who are able to counsel and give a biblical perspective to someone (no matter what the issue is). God is never stymied by anyone’s pet problem and his servants shouldn’t be either.
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What I fear is that this will only embolden the homosexual folks even more so. When other fellowships decline to back down from biblical principles, will the gays resort to more aggressive tactics.
Oddly enough, the organization you alluded to SOULFORCE was founded by a man who was Jerry Falwell’s ghost writer.
I guess now that Willow Creek has backed down (renounced?) support for Exodus Ray Boltz and Jennifer Knapp will perform there?
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Exodus has been exposed to use debunked “science” in its methods, and frankly, having a leader caught scampering out of a gay bar isn’t exactly inspiring to anyone struggling with SSA.
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The use of the word “scampering” seems sort of biased, doesn’t it? You really don’t think leaders are above set-backs, sins and human fallability, do you?
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@Hopesprings – I saw the pictures. John Paulk scampered. If you prefer “fled”, “scurried” or “traipsed”, have at it. But of course human leaders have fallibilities. It just undermines their credibility when the very thing they say is possible is shown to be impossible… for them.
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KITTEHIZ, what does this individual have to do with our discussion here about Willow Creek and the ministry of Exodus? I don’t know if or why so guy even visited a bar but the kind and gracful work of EXODUS stands as it is and so does their stand on faith that Jesus Christ (not homosexuality or bisexuality or so on) is our identity and he can change us inside and out. Nor is this ALL about “science.” I think EXODUS respects science and is willing to responsibly use anything real science makes available but science alone (even at its best) cannot redeem people and transform them into godly people.
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A fall does not an impossibility make.
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Most talk about sexual identity is drivil. If you are a Christian, your identity is in Christ.
Beyond that, if one’s very “identity” is in one’s sin (as God defines sin in His word), that is far more serious (and deadly) spiritually than when one falls into sin and turns back to Jesus as the source of their redemption and their identity as a Christian.
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With God, nothing is impossible.
But why bring God’s word or the truth into it?
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The church ought to be able to fill the needs. In the NT, you don’t really see specific “sin ministries” i.e. the homosexual ministry, the glutton ministry, the gossip ministry, etc. The Gospel is very powerful. And, yes, I completely agree with Joel Mark. Our identity as believers is not in our besetting sin, but in Christ.
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Joel and others, I don’t expect you to ascribe to this, but to me when the founder and spokesman for an organization is exposed as a charlatan and a fraud, it calls the whole thing into question, especially when they also lie about science. Not only that – no dragged Paulk kicking and screaming into a gay bar. He went on his own. God knows what he told his poor wife about where he was going, but I bet it sounded like what spouses in his “ministry” have been hearing since its founding.
I wouldn’t marry someone claiming to be “ex-gay”. Not for a million bucks. I would probably try to find a nice Christian person of the same sex to introduce them to, though.
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And, ugh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_International#Controversy
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KITTEHZ, I do not even ascripe to your first notion that the founder and spokesman of this organization was exposed as a charlatan and a fraud. That is silly and inflated libel, even if he did continue to struggle with a sin or had a setback or was seen coming out of a bar. You have stretched the meaning of the words “charlatan and a fraud” to ridiculous unrecognizable levels to suit some sort of grudge you seem to have.
Beyond that, even if he was all the worst things you accuse him of being, that does not in any way legitimaze Willow Creek’s abandonment of a good and godly ministry.
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There’s no grudge to be had here, nor a valid critique of Willow Creek to be had. They are free to disassociate themselves from disrepute – and their members may feel that they have an obligation to. Not sure how or why you think Exodus is “good and godly”, but there is plenty of evidence that they are neither, JOEL. Seems to me like they’re riding a money train on the backs of people who they convince to need their brand of snake oil, which we all know won’t work. Read up on them. It’s a textbook scam.
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Joel and others, I don’t expect you to ascribe to this, but to me when the founder and spokesman for an organization is exposed as a charlatan and a fraud, it calls the whole thing into question
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Ok no problem and since Willow Creek is know not to present the Word of God at there sundays servies. We can then consider them a charlatan and a fraud. Could we not?
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Kit (48),
I’d largely agree. There’s simply no evidence that Willow Creek ended its relationship with Exodus because the church caved into the demands of homosexual activists. It is reckless for Martin even to suggest that that may be the case.
Indeed, it is far more likely that Willow Creek doesn’t want to associate itself with an organization that–against substantial evidence to the contrary–continues to assert that it can successfully convert adult homosexuals to heterosexuals. After all, Exodus has a committed donor base that wants to believe that adult sexual orientation is the mutable product of someone’s conscious voluntary choice.
Robert Spitzer’s 1991 study reignited interest in reparative therapy among evangelicals. Spitzer, a Christian psychologist, claimed very high success rates at “converting” homosexuals to heterosexuality. But in a number of later interviews, Spitzer admitted that these “conversions” involved little more than (1) changes in self-labeling and (2) the adoption of social mannerisms and hobbies that are generally viewed as masculine. Spitzer admitted that he had almost no success at reducing same-sex sexual attraction and homoerotic arousal. Also, Spitzer’s subjects were nearly all devoutly religious people who had a strong desire to be socially accepted within their religious communities.
Thus, at its best, reparative therapy does little more than teach gay Christians how to make themselves appear to be straight, so that they won’t face rejection within the virulently anti-gay evangelical subculture. In other words, it’s a type of “therapy” whose utility lies exclusively in the evangelical subculture’s steadfast (and unfounded) refusal to concede that 2-4% of the adult population has a persistent involuntary sexual attraction to members of the same sex. In a way, reparative therapy accepts evangelical hostility toward gay people as a given. The reparative therapist feels no compulsion to counter the church’s ignorance concerning the persistent involuntary nature of sexual orientation. No. The reparative therapist lets the church go on its ignorant way, and focuses his efforts instead on teaching gay Christians how to “play straight” within the evangelical subculture.
In recent years, a number of churches have come to believe that it’s improper to ask gay people to live a lie. After all, reparative therapy doesn’t repair anything. It just helps gay Christians learn how to pretend to be straight. In recent years, many have come to believe that it’s far better to educate the church about sexual orientation, and to foster a church culture where non-promiscuous gay Christians can be open about their sexual orientation and stop pretending to be straight.
This probably won’t happen in some churches, particularly in those that have conflated the “family values” message with that of the gospel of Christ. But in a number of churches, folks have come to recognize that the church ought to be a Christ-centered community that embraces all whom Father has calls to Himself–without regard to whether those people may have defects that would cause them to be cast aside by the “family values” crowd.
In that sense, I don’t see this as Willow Creek caving in to homosexual activists. No. It’s far more likely that Willow Creek has simply elected to stop accommodating the Christless, impotent gospel of “family values Christianity,” at least on this particular issue.
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KITTEHZ, the apparent grudge to which I refer was based on your wildly extreme use of terms like “charlatan and a fraud” for someone you don’t even know who may have done something you know very little about. His sincerity may well be very high. This seems like extreme judgmentalism on your part and of the destructive not constructive type.
And I know of nothing to call the ministry of EXODUS into disrepute either. We must not be so disrespectful and unfair when evaluating people and groups we don’t know a lot about personally or in the big picture. Someone might think it is hateful. It seems your comments have not been very kind and loving or fair toword the parties discussed here, KITTEHZ.
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JOEL, Paulk and many of the founders have been caught doing a LOT of shady things. I don’t care how sincere they say they are. I see what I see. If you think “we” don’t know enough about Exodus personally or “in the big picture”, then upon what basis can “you” say they are kind and godly? Hmm? Seems like you can’t have it both ways, JOEL, my friend. Click that link at 46 for a REAL eyeful.
Also, Amen, Evan. I couldn’t agree with you more.
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“…a lot of things” in bold font is not a persuasive argument, sir or madam.
I do not trust your information or your cruel accusations regarding this particular individual, KITTEHZ, nor does it speak to the merits or demerits of Willow Creek’s decision or their hiding it for so long. Nor do your vague unconfirmed personal accusations diminish the good work done by EXODUS. You obviously have some huge chip on your shoulder against them and a personal bias as well as a need to discredit them.
Let’s all try to be more loving and less hateful in this discussion (okay, I’m not the WEB Editor, but just the same…).
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EVAN,
Any church that asks anyone to “live a lie” is not a church. But that’s not what real Christian churches do–nor does EXODUS. And any church that does not call a sinner (including practicing homosexuals) to repent and turn to Jesus for total transformation is also not a church. This turning process is not easy nor is it simplistic but it is the mission of the church. If “reparative therapy” (which recognizes that change is not a simplistic cliche’) fits into that mission, then God bless those who use it and God bless those who benefit from it.
I have nothing against honest “reparative therapy” (which never asks ANYone to pretend ANYthing) as one sincere and earnest means of reaching out to and helping people but it is ultimately the Holy Spirit (and the power of God) in response to our repentance thatt does the transforming of a sinner, not any particular human technique. What we do not see in homosexuals who will not and do not change is genuine repentance. That alone is the problem.
Any church that is a Christ-centered community begins with repentance–which was his main message to sinners.
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JOEL, it is not loving to dismiss wrongdoing within a ministry nor is it hateful to condemn it. Plain and simple, they are frauds. This is not “my” information. I sure didn’t make it up. It is an empirical fact:
John Paulk was the chairman of Exodus International and founded Focus on the Family’ Love Won Out conference. He had appeared on 60 Minutes, Oprah, Good Morning America and landed on the cover of Newsweek during a high profile 1998 ex-gay ad campaign. On Sept. 19, 2000 activist Wayne Besen photographed Paulk in Mr. P’ — Washington, DC gay bar. The incident cost him his job as Exodus’ chairman and Focus on the Family greatly diminished his role.
Then this:
In Sept. 2007, ex-gay therapist Christopher Austin was convicted of sexually assaulting a client. Austin was sentenced to 10 years in prison, but received seven years probation, had to register as a sex offender and was ordered to pay a $2,500 fine. Austin had started Renew Ministries, a counseling center run out of a church in Irving. He was affiliated with the National Association For Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). Indeed, Austin taught a seminar at NARTH’ 2004 annual convention entitled, “Understanding and Treating Compulsive Sexual Behavior in Men with Value-Incongruent Homosexual Issues: A Multidimensional Approach.”
Then this, from one of the founders of Exodus:
In June 2007, Bussee issued an apology for his involvement in promoting orientation change through Exodus. Also apologizing were Jeremy Marks, former president of Exodus International Europe, and Darlene Bogle, the founder of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency. The apology stated in part “Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families.” In April 2010, Bussee stated, “I never saw one of our members or other Exodus leaders or other Exodus members become heterosexual, so deep down I knew that it wasn’t true.”
Lies and fraud and fraud and lies, over and over for decades. Repentance has nothing to do with it.
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Then this, from George Alan Rekers of NARTH:
Rekers has a Ph.D from University of California, Los Angeles and has been a research fellow at Harvard University, a professor and psychologist for UCLA and the University of Florida, and department head at Kansas State University. In 1983 Rekers was on the founding board of the Family Research Council, a non-profit Christian lobbying organization,[4] and he is a former officer and scientific advisor of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), an organization offering conversion therapy intended to change homosexuals into heterosexuals. Rekers has testified in court that homosexuality is sinful and destructive, and against parenthood by gay and lesbian people in a number of court cases involving organizations and state agencies working with children
In May 2010 Rekers employed a male prostitute as a travel companion for a two-week vacation in Europe. Rekers denied any inappropriate conduct and suggestions that he was gay. The male escort told CNN he had given Rekers “sexual massages” while traveling together in Europe. Rekers subsequently resigned from the board of NARTH.
Rekers is married. With children. What a fine example of Christian manhood for someone with SSA to follow, and what credible testimony he must have given in court about gay people as parents!
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KITTEHZ, I see no intentional wrongdoing within the EXODUS ministry whatsoever nor do I see ANY reason for Christians who call on the grace of God to condemn them.
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KITTEHZ, you persist in using this blog to personally attack an individual human beings whom you condemn with all sorts of cruel isolated out of context allegations and accusation which I don’t care to debate. It is beside our point and it is not impressive on your part.
God bless all who turn to God with their struggles and God bless the EXODUS ministry.
And may God bless John Paulk, though I did not even know his name before today. I hope the best for them all and hope to see them in heaven by God’s grace.
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Kittehz,
How many Alcoholic Anonymous members fall off the wagon? How many drug abusers use again after going through a rehab program? Lots, that’s how many. Obviously these programs are run by lying frauds and should be shut down immediately.
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Ree, it would be a lot different if the FOUNDER of AA was found getting sloshed with Lindsay Lohan or if Dr. Drew was tooting coke in a coke den with a rock band. So the false analogy does not work. We’re talking about the fact that a fish rots from the head down. As to JOEL, you are content to assume the very best about Exodus without pesky facts getting in your way or reading much about them – if you’d never heard of Paulk before today then your knowledge of what Exodus does and how is pretty shallow. That’s fine if all you need to know is that they try to make gay people straight by praying away the gay. But it’s not conducive to a discussion of what their motives are, how much money they take, how corrupt the leadership is, whether they lie to participants and the public, and whether it actually works. SO! When you know more about those issues, we can discuss Exodus rationally. Until then, it’s all pie in the sky from your side of the table.
Google is your friend, JOEL. Though it does not appear to be a friend of Exodus International. Facts and fraud don’t play nicely together.
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KITTEHZ,
Your attacks (#45, 55, 56) on certian individuals you don’t like are vicious, persdonal and unjustly judgmental. This thread does not call for them and neither does decency. You (and whomever you may be copying) are willing to go to any length and dig up any alleged unsubstantiated dirt to smear those who disagree with you or are simply trying to do good in the world or stand up to their struggles with sin or help others.
I have seen how vicious homosexualists can be against decent people. And when those people stumble, the viciousness goes to the tenth power. When some homosexualists are losing an argument, it gets even uglier. It all flows from the refusal to repent in the first place. I have seen this cruelty in the relentless attacks on the Boy Scouts for two decades. It is unconscionable and unethical and the Scouts did nothing but seek a decent mission as best they know how. Some cutlural Christians are easy to intimidate, but there are many real Christians on this blog so you really ought to spew your personal accusations elsewhere.
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And KITTEHZ, I don’t follow hate journalism closely or personal attacks or scandal mongerers. I recall that some guy with EXODUS had a struggle long ago. I just prayed for him and moved on with my life of trying to help people. I did not retain the name nor did I relish his hurts or struggles.
But my respect for him and for EXODOS is higher than ever now.
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JOEL – The incidents I posted about are not “allegations” nor are they unfounded. All are verified. All are substantiated. Most resulted in action taken by Exodus against the people involved, such as firing. Some of the statements came directly from the wrongdoers themselves. Your ostrich approach to facts about this organization and the people in it is most perplexing.
Alternative realities may be fun – that’s why we go to movies. But they are unsustainable as a worldview, and just because you don’t want to look at the links, which contain references to eyewitness accounts and include pictures, doesn’t make your version so. And “LALALALALALA I CAN”T HEAAAAAAR YOU!” is not rational, reasoned discussion. If you can refute the statements factually, I’d be curious, but since there is ample evidence to the contrary and some of it comes from the perps themselves, it’s unlikely that you can.
Your re-affirmation of “respect” for Exodus in the light of cold hard evidence is… VERY telling. The phrase “by any means necessary” comes to mind. Yuck.
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No link, no substantiation.
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The only link given (in #46) demonstrates that Exodus has a high standard of integrity, and it’s leadership is expected to meet that standard or leave. A very few have left or been forced to leave.
But I’m not surprised that Exodus has come under attack. That’s sop for the left when religious or conservative organizations stand up for inconvenient truths that threaten to derail their agenda.
Be well.
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Kittehz,
The leaders of anti-addiction programs almost always are people who’ve struggled with the addiction themselves and have fallen off the wagon occasionally. I don’t know the details of your other examples, but I do know that John Paulk had one instance of a slip-up which consisted of sitting down for a drink a “gay” bar, and in response to that the “born that way, so you might as well enjoy it” crowd call that proof of their assertions about the nature of homosexuality. But no one except the mockers reduce the therapy to “pray the gay away,” and no Christian ever claims that turning from deeply ingrained besetting sin is easy. And even the anti-Christian crowd has no problem grasping the fact that turning from “addictive” type behavior is extremely difficult–that is, they get it in every single area except homo-sex.
Now if you’re saying that every single person who claims to have put their homosexual desires under the lordship of Christ and to be living a fulfilling life without feeding those desires is a lying hypocrite and that they’re all secretly engaged in homosexual affairs, you’ll have to do more than cite a few examples. You’ll have to show that every single one who makes that claim and appears to be authentic really isn’t. Because just showing us that people sometimes fall back into the sins they’ve turned from isn’t proof of anything in dispute.
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KITTEHZ, I don’t trust a thing you post. ZERO. In fact, I no longer even consider your posts worth reading, though I retain the option of reading and commenting on them if need be. Life is too short for such bitter clinging to personal vendettas against people and groups. You are almost as bad as Clinton was in the eara of the poltics of personal destruction.
When someone chooses to wrap themselves in sexual addictions and attitudes, especially those of homosexuality and homosexualism, it can be hard to peal off all the layers. Perhaps some people just had one more layer yet to peal off and stumbled. Who knows? And real love must also have a tough side. I commend their efforts (the stuggling individuals and the ministry of EXODUS) and pray God’s blessings on them with undying confidence that God can finish any sanctifying (reparative or restoring) work on a willing repentant soul.
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McCartyism still lives.
* “Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild… Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator… You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” ~ Joseph N. Welch (1890 – 1960), head counsel for the United States Army while under investigation by Joseph McCarthy’s Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations for Communist activities.
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Ree (59):
I’m a bit intrigued by your comparison of Exodus to AA. Interestingly, if Exodus operated more along the lines of AA, I doubt that they would be running into problems with organizations like Willow Creek.
After all, AA doesn’t proclaim that it can cure people of alcoholism. Instead, it acknowledges that alcoholism is a persistent condition that requires treatment. AA teaches alcoholics how not to be drunks; AA doesn’t claim to “cure” alcoholism. In other words, AA acknowledges that it cannot change the underlying condition, and therefore focuses its efforts on teaching the alcoholic how to minimize the potential adverse health and social effects of that condition.
That’s not what Exodus is doing, however. Exodus, it seems, proclaims that it can cure the underlying condition, that it, that its program can reorient someone’s sexual orientation from gay to straight. There is no research that supports this claim. At best, reparative therapy may cause a gay person to stop labeling himself as gay and to adopt social mannerisms and interests that are more traditionally masculine. That’s all. It’s simply an exercise in repackaging. Reparative therapy yields no substantial reduction in homoerotic arousal or same-sex sexual attraction. In other words, this repackaged “straight” person still has a gay sexual orientation, even after successful completion of his therapy.
The problem with Exodus is this: The organization is nearly silent about the fact that its techniques can do nothing more than effect a social reorientation, and that no amount of reparative therapy will work a substantial change in one’s underlying sexual orientation. Their silence is akin to letting people with chronic renal failure believe that their dialysis treatments are causing their kidneys to get better.
I believe that reparative therapy has a place within the spectrum of options available to those of us who have a gay sexual orientation. But there should be truth in advertising. Reparative therapists need to be clear that the technique accomplishes nothing more than repackaging. Subjects need to know that successful treatment by a reparative therapist will not substantially alter their underlying sexual orientation. When reparative therapists are not clear about these points, it does a great disservice to the subject, to the church, to future spouses, etc.
In other words, reparative therapy is dishonest unless it includes some principle akin to “Step 1″ of AA’s 12 steps. There is simply no evidence to suggest that reparative therapy can work any substantial shift in the sexual orientation of post-pubescent adults. Subjects need to understand that, so that they can determine whether reparative therapy is the best treatment option available to them. Churches need to understand that, so that they will stop burdening gay Christians with the unachievable task of “fixing” their sexual orientation. (Please note that I am not saying that churches should alter their views as to the sinfulness of gay sex acts.) Lastly, future spouses need to understand the limits of reparative therapy, so that they won’t enter into a relationship with someone under the false premise that the person has been cured of his gay sexual orientation.
Reparative therapy may be right for some people. But before starting treatment, subjects need to know the limits of what it can accomplish. When someone starts attending AA, he is immediately told the truth about the limits of what AA can accomplish. Sadly, it seems, the same is often not the case with reparative therapy.
It’s no secret that many Christian social conservatives are opposed to anti-discrimination laws that include sexual orientation as a protected class. There are cogent arguments to be made that such protections are unnecessary. But that’s not the tack that groups like the Family Research Council, AFA, Focus on the Family, and others, have generally taken. Instead, they’ve attempted to argue that sexual orientation doesn’t exist, or, to the extent that it does, it’s purely a mutable product of voluntary choice.
This has placed reparative therapists in a difficult position. Because groups like Exodus draw from a similar donor base as the family values activists, they have likely felt some pressure to downplay (or keep silent about) the limits of reparative therapy. After all, if Exodus spoke openly and truthfully about the limits of reparative therapy, it would undermine the political strategy of the DC-based family values activists. In my opinion, Exodus has caved in to pressure from family values activists at the expense of the well-being of those they’re claiming to help. Exodus’s subjects have thus become little more than inadvertent pawns in the political schemes of guys like Gary Bauer and Tony Perkins.
Several commenters have suggested that Exodus is being punished for telling the truth. Well, I suppose that depends on how you define truth. If truth is defined in terms of whether one’s assertions comport with available evidence, then it’s hard to see Exodus as anything but a band of liars who have exchanged their subjects’ well-being for an opportunity to kiss the rings of guys like Bauer and Perkins. But I suppose that someone could also define truth as Joel does, that is, in terms of how closely a statement mimics the current talking points of the DC-based family values activists (without regard to whether that statement is supported by any available evidence). If one defines truth in this latter way, then I suppose that we’d have to adjudge Exodus as being a very “truthful” organization.
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Debra – Google “Respect My Research” and you will find a site were many scientists whose work was abused by Exodus demand retractions of the lies Exodus told. JOEL may not want to hear it… but his heroes here are simply in it for the cold hard filthy lucre that comes from the anti-gay money machine. Happy reading!
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Ree says: Now if you’re saying that every single person who claims to have put their homosexual desires under the lordship of Christ and to be living a fulfilling life without feeding those desires is a lying hypocrite and that they’re all secretly engaged in homosexual affairs, you’ll have to do more than cite a few examples. You’ll have to show that every single one who makes that claim and appears to be authentic really isn’t. Because just showing us that people sometimes fall back into the sins they’ve turned from isn’t proof of anything in dispute.
I never said that. I do, however, say that every single reputable mental health organization in American and Europe has issued statements saying that reparative therapy is ineffective and can be quite harmful. And I would add that when I am sick, I go to a reputable physician, not a snake oil salesman.
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There is a VERY reputable physician, the Great Physician.
“When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Mk. 2:17
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#70 Ha. They’re your claims–do your own googling.
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Sorry, Debra. Do it yourself if you care to learn. Links don’t often post here very well. The intellectually lazy will always find someone else to do their homework for them, even if one hands them all the tools to do it themselves, it seems. But 5th Grade was over for me a loooong time ago.
But what if it’s not intellectual laziness, but something more sinister at work here, as it seems? There seems to be an awful lot of “Exodus can do no wrong, and the less I know about what they are actually doing, to whom and who is doing it, the better.”
I can think a of a few historical parallels here….
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Joel nailed it in #67.
Be well.
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No, Debra. You nailed yourself when you decided you didn’t want to hear a word against a corrupt and evil organization. Joel obviously did that long ago. I hoped better for you.
Marry an ex-gay man, Debra. And get back to us in 18 months about how it works out for you.
I cannot wait for The Lord to instruct you in His ways.
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The issue is not what Exodus says about being gay, It is not what Willow Vreek has say about being gay. It is not about if reparative therapy is ineffective or effactive, it is not about what reputable mental health organization in American and Europe has to say about the issue.
WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT GOD”S WORD HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE ISSUE…. THE WORD OF GOD IS CLEAR THE GAY LIFE STLYE IS CALLED A SEXUAL SIN. CHRISTIAN’S CAN NOT BE INVOLVED WITH IT OR SUPPORT IT…
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Kittehz are you a Christian?
Do you support the GLBT Community?
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#76
You obviously don’t know any ex-gays. I know a number. Most have been married 10 or even 20 years…to a person of the opposite gender and quite happily (and without cheating.)
You know nothing of which you speak.
There are those who “fall” (as with any sin), but there are many who are faithful and happy.
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I never said that. I do, however, say that every single reputable mental health organization in American and Europe has issued statements saying that reparative therapy is ineffective and can be quite harmful.
******Only recently, and only since they were politically infiltrated.
There are better statistics, and better results, from reparative therapy than from all the depression “therapies” (and drugs) presently available. Yet, reparative therapy is “ineffective” and depression therapy (and drugs) are so overused that it would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
I care nothing for what “reputable mental health” organizations say, when it goes against what they said forEVER before the 1970s and their infiltration by the pro-GLBT groups.
That’s like saying, “Well, the vegetarians took over all the food certifying organizations, and now not a single reputable food organization thinks it is okay to eat meat.”
Ridiculous. And, it goes against all experience in the ex-gay community.
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the anti-gay money machine
*****Hysterical, except for all the politics and money being spent by the other side.
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#67 Joel,
Amen, brother!! Amen!
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These so-called “reputable mental health organizations” are starting from the position that homosexual desire is an innate and absolutely immutable and normal condition. That isn’t a conclusion but a presupposition. And starting with that assumption can only lead to their conclusion.
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#69 Evan,
Have you ever used or attended an ex-gay group? The person close to me who attends has NEVER been told that they can “cure” homosexuality 100%.
In fact, the first thing they work on is their relationship to God, and putting Him first in their lives. When He is first, the rest becomes less important.
Secondly, right off the bat, he was told that 1) some people find complete 100% freedom, but this is not typical 2) most find that the temptation to sexual sin (and SSA thoughts) decrease markedly over time (and with effort, diligence and accountability) can and do become manageable. For these people, marriage is not only possible, but very successful for the majority. Will they still occasionally feel a temptation? Yes, but it happens more rarely and they can (like anyone who feels a temptation to cheat while married) overcome the temptation with God’s help.
For these people, they are substantially NOT gay, because they are happily, successfully, and generally connected to the opposite sex.
3) Some people are called to be celibate. This is more likely the older you are before therapy and the more thoroughly that you indulged in the lifestyle before coming for help. For those, it is a choice (like the monks of old) to follow God, rather than to follow negative sexual desires.
ALL of this was made very clear. VERY. No one claimed anything like you are saying. Not one person.
I think you are spouting pro-GLBT propaganda, without having actually dealt with a Christian ex-gay ministry personally.
(Admittedly, the group the person I know is not Exodus, but another ministry. However, it was recommended to him by Focus on the Family.)
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#83 Ree,
Amen, again!
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#66
“But no one except the mockers reduce the therapy to “pray the gay away,” and no Christian ever claims that turning from deeply ingrained besetting sin is easy. And even the anti-Christian crowd has no problem grasping the fact that turning from “addictive” type behavior is extremely difficult–that is, they get it in every single area except homo-sex.”
EXACTLY!!!!
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The thing is, we have many, many examples of people who are “ex-gay” and successfully living that way.
But, for the mockers, even one example of someone feeling tempted or falling off the wagon, means that none of it is true.
If that were the case, then none of us could ever claim to be victorious through Christ.
I have many sins. Some are besetting. I give them to Christ. But, I could never claim that I am perfect: that I never feel temptation, or that I never fail, or that that I have never (even for a moment) fallen “off the wagon.”
As someone else said, with every other sin, even the “mockers” recognize this ongoing battle. But, with homosexuality, the fact that someone even THINKS of the same sex once in 10 years is “evidence” that they are still a homosexual and are “lying” to themselves and their families.
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The reason that Exodus (and other ministries that help unwanted homosexuality) fire someone who “falls off the wagon”–even just a little, is because they recognize that they have to stand up to a higher standard.
The world expects PERFECTION, which is a very hard (in fact, technically, it is an impossible) standard to hold up to. So, unlike the average human, leaders in the movement have to be so above board and so perfect, that it must lead to a lot of stress.
However, it is commendable that the Exodus and others hold to such a high standard. They must have leaders who are, through the grace of God and through accountability partners, able to stand.
The other commendable thing is that they do not turn their backs on those who have fallen (even a little), they simply don’t allow them to remain in LEADERSHIP.
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Seems to me like they’re riding a money train on the backs of people who they convince to need their brand of snake oil, which we all know won’t work.
******Um, the person I know who receives help for this sin has NEVER been asked for a single dime. Nor has anyone I know associated with this ministry ever been asked for a single dime.
Borrowing a page from the “gay” lobby: “Why would they choose to do a ministry that brings them such negative publicity and such vehement hatred?” Especially, I might add, when none of the leaders of these ministries are getting rich doing it (nor any of the therapists, either.)
Perhaps they choose to do such a ministry, because they feel called by God to help others? Hmmm. Just a thought.
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Evan says,
These words from their website don’t sound like the promise of a cure to me.
It seems to me that you’re basing your judgment of Exodus based on what its critics say about it and not on what it says about itself. And neither have I ever heard anyone from Focus on the Family, or anywhere else for that matter, talk about a “cure” for homosexuality.
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Tammy, lots of “ex-gay” diddlin’ is going on. A LOT of it. You may try to dismiss it, or make it go away, but “Christians” like to gay-diddle a lot. They take buckets of cash to try to “cure” people of the desire to gay-diddle, but O, how they diddle all day and all night. http://www.beyondexgay.com/who/jallen
Oh, Tammy. How evil your ways are and how they harm your fellow man! How you will burn for encouraging this! What fire is waiting for you!
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I hope you are celibate, Tammy. For your values are insufficient to be passed on to children.
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Tammy says: I care nothing for what “reputable mental health” organizations say, when it goes against what they said forEVER before the 1970s and their infiltration by the pro-GLBT groups.
Yes! NO progress gets made EVER in mental health, and women who have miscarriages should eat Haldol like Tic-Tacs as they did in the 1960s to get over it instead of going to therapy. Because that works. Real well.
Tammy – you have problems. Gay people do not. The only issue gay people have is you and your bigotry.
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Wow, Kittehz, you are full of hatred. I would worry far more about the judgment waiting for you, for I fully rely on my Savior, and I follow His Word.
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Thanks, Ree, for posting from the web site. It is unfortunate when we judge a group entirely from its critics, rather than what it says about itself, or–more importantly–what it actually does.
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Kittehz,
Since I have actual people that I love who struggle with this issue, people that I would DIE for, I think that your charges of bigotry actually fit much better on your own head.
It is you that simply can’t see past your own nose on this issue.
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No, Tammy. You would not die for anyone. You simply have a narrow worldview that needs and feeds on self-hate. No struggling required – just hatred for gay men and women. What a sad world you live in! What deprivation you lap up!
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I guess when you can’t win an argument, you have to resort to calling the other people names.
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No names, just facts, Tammy. No hate, just reality. No worry about God’s judgment, just concern for you on that subject.
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Kittehz,
Christians do not call names. They do not take God’s Word lightly. They do not assume anything about people’s lives that they know nothing about.
They do not tell people that they shouldn’t reproduce.
I find it most interesting that you would like to proclaim Hellfire and damnation to someone based on their belief in the Bible and their disagreement with your sure-fired personal interpretation.
Again, those with failed arguments and not enough facts resort to ad hominem. You have fallen into that group more than once since you started posting to WMB.
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I never called you a name. You did. I am not fit to call Hellfire and damnation on anyone. But you did – on yourself. your failed arguments – you sure won’t marry an “ex-gay” guy – are sad. The plank must hurt.
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If someone really genuinely is repulsed by their homosexual inclination, I think anyone who can assist them in overcoming it (”Victory in Jesus”) should be lauded. Do folks relapse? Absolutely.
I attended a San Antonio church where a young man was rescued from the snare of underclass drug culture. Through him the Lord did great things. But the power of the dope was too strong. He relapsed and eventually died from OD.
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I will pray for people like Tammy, who think their own sins are so much less worse than those of others, and who are headed for a fiery end because of that. Maybe someday – a glance in a mirror, a word from a friend, an admonsihment from a child – maybe then she will see her own evil and try to end it, through Christ.
Good luck, Tammy. I will pray for you.
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KITTEHZ, your comments on this blog toward TAMMY have been inexcusably cruel, heartless, hateful, unwarranted and uncalled for. But they are cheap and meaningless in that you obviously don’t know a thing about her nor have you taken to heart or mind a thing she says.
TAMMY, I hope you know that the verbal abuse you took from KITTEHZ comes with the territory of what Christians must take when they speak the truth in love. I am confident that you are more able and willing to speak to truth in love than ever, despite the responses of posters like KITTEHZ. And TAMMY, know that decent people of all stripes can see through KITTEHZ’s desperately unkind tactics.
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We ALL have our besetting sins, but if we have come to Christ, we no longer can expect a “fiery end”.
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Tammy – you have problems. Gay people do not. The only issue gay people have is you and your bigotry
—
Not true, they have a problem with God’s Word, that is why they have been working on trying to change it to support their views.
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Kittehz – Tammy view is based on God’s Word as all Chrisitan’s views should be. I am sad to say your view on the gay issue seens not to be based on God’s Word but on what Society has to say.
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Argue the topic without attacking other commenters. Commenters who continue to violate our Website Policies will be moderated or banned from the site.
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TAMMY
I am sorry for the treatment of someone like KITTEHZ. It seems her church has failed to teach her about God’s Love, Mercy, Gracy that comes from a right relationship with Christ. Her church also semm to have failed to teach her about God’s Word and what is a sexual sin….. Views like the ones KITTEHZ has presented are what is keeping people trapped in sin.
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The first time we read about the gay life style is in relationship to Sodom and we saw how that worked out. There are no passages showing that God is ok with the gay life style. We also see in God’s Word any sexual relaitonship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. An that thur out God’s Word, it is clear marriage is between one man and one woman. For a Christian that is the Standard by which we are to go by.
An after reading the exchange between TAMMY
and Kittehz. Tammy views are lining up with God’s Word. Kittehz I want to encourage you to read the Word of God.
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The verbal abuse that TAMMY took deserved a response. Decency called for it.
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One thing I do know that emotion come out over GLBT Community and their desires to be view ok in the eyes of God and Society.
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I’ll still pray for Tammy – she needs it, bad. I don’t care if bigots think I am hateful for doing so.
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These don’t sound like the words of someone who thinks her own sins are “much less worse” than the sins of others to me.
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You know we are not wrestling with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities in high places. The venom stirred up over this ministry is incredible. The forces of hell are scared stiff of what might happen if the message of HOPE through CHRIST to those caught in homosexuality continues to be spread by Believers and outreaches like Exodus and like-minded ministries. They really deserve our prayers and any support we can give them.
Tammy and Pastor Roy and Joel Mark, and any other commenters here, who work with people beset by same sex attraction or trapped in the homosexual lifestyle—- you deserve our thanks and support and prayers as well. May God richly bless and protect you and your families as you minister to others.
Be well.
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Kitthz,
I’m kind of confused about your position. First, I’m not clear whether you consider Scripture authoritative for defining what constitutes sin or whether you reject Scriptural authority. If you do acknowledge the authority of Scripture, it’s not clear to me whether you have the same view as Evan–that homosexual inclinations are absolutely immutable but homosexual acts are sinful and homosexual temptations should be resisted or whether you believe that Scripture allows for homosexual inclinations to be acted upon and not resisted. If your starting position were clearer, it might be easier to interact with your ideas.
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Ree – I am trying to understand if she is a Christian or not….
Kittehz – what did Tammy say that was bad, that would label her a bigot?
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It is never easy to break sexual sins, but with Christ help people who are trapped in sexual sins can find forgiveness and the strength to resist sexual temptation. What makes it even hard for people, who are trapped in sexual sin to over come it. Is Society desire promote the sexual behavior as been normal and that the Churches views are wrong.
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Thanks, all.
No, there are threads and people who really get to me, but this hasn’t been one of them. Again, people who resort to ad hominem generally do so because they are losing.
The biggest crisis of my life was when I found out someone very close to me was struggling with this issue. I learned a ton in a very short time and am still learning.
The biggest problem I have with people who claim Christianity, but who excuse the sin of homosexuality, is simply how hard and difficult they make it on the Christian who struggles with SSA.
I can’t speak for him, and we disagree on much, but I’ll bet that even Evan doesn’t appreciate the supposedly Christian people who tell him, “Hey, just give in and go for it! Find a good “Christian” gay and settle down.”
When we have besetting sins (and most of us have them), we need accountability and support. The last thing we need is someone cheering us on to continue, or start into, sin.
It is actually painful for the struggler to constantly be told to STOP struggling. STOP fighting for what is right. You CAN’T change. Heavens, you can’t even remain celibate, because your sexuality CONTROLS you. You have no choices. You MUST give in and break God’s laws.
This is hurtful and can be devastating. It is why I hope those I know who struggle stay off of web sites like this one, even, because they will hear encouragement to sin from people who have swallowed the world’s beliefs hook line and sinker and who do not understand or accept the Word of God.
I am grateful for ministries which provide support. I would like to see more churches come to understand this sin (and not simplistically, but really understand what it involves), and then have connections to good ex-gay ministries.
We had to search to find help for the person I know. Thankfully, we found it through a link on Focus on the Family.
Again, for strugglers, I recommend:
http://livehope.org/
https://www.portlandfellowship.com/
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I also recommend:
http://exodusinternational.org/
In addition, I think it would be good for Christians to read through the literature and/or watch the following to help them understand:
http://victoryatl.com/p/12162/MediaID/281/MediaType/video/Default.aspx
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Tammy – stick to God’s Word you are doing ok.
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Tammy, if your “biggest crisis” was someone elses’s sin, you are but a child on a spiritual walk. This explains a lot about you.
In the meantime, checkout Focus On The Family and Exodus and the hoorible things they have said about marriage, gay people and beating children. Don’t lap up the pap. It’s pure evil. Stop spreading it.
And check a mirror, Tammy – you have a bigger crisis than you think. I hope and pray you get it fixed, but sin never dies.
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Kittehz – by your comments I am getting the impression you are not a Christian.
Focus On The Family is a very strong Christian Group that supports God’s View on marriage being between one man and one woman. They believe that the gay life stlye is a sinful life stlye. Which is supported by God’s Word.
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Kittehz why have you target Tammy? Other have said the same thing and other things but you are only addressing Tammy, why is that?
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“And I would add that when I am sick, I go to a reputable physician, not a snake oil salesman.”
Well, you’re in a real bind now, Kittehz, because now you’ve got nowhere to go for ‘ reputable physicians’, who are not on the “money train”. Some recent articles, “The Epidemic of Mental Illness: Why?” and “The Illusions of Psychiatry” by the former chief editor of The New England Journal of Medicine , shed some light on the this profession’s own brands of snake oil–the dangerous and crippling psychotropic drugs that perform no better than placebos. And she convincingly demonstrates that they are part of a deeply dysfunctional mental health system that is in bed with Big Pharma and itself the definition of insanity.
One honest practitioner she quotes, the psychiatrist Daniel Carlat writes in his book, “Unhinged”
Angell writes, “While Carlat believes that psychoactive drugs are sometimes effective, his evidence is anecdotal. What he objects to is their overuse and what he calls the “frenzy of psychiatric diagnoses, and that the DSM-V will be a “bonanza for the pharmaceutical industry but at a huge cost to the new false positive patients caught in the excessively wide DSM-V net.”
Consider the predatory actions of Big Pharma on families with disturbed children:
And children are dying and permanently crippled by the side effects of psychotropic drugs. Angell demonstrates conclusively that these are immoral and criminal activities by the mental health industry. Read the article yourself–it will break your heart with the scandalous story of four year old Rebecca Riley, who died from a toxic combination of three psychotropic drugs, prescribed off label for the ridiculous diagnoses of ADHD, and bi-polar disorder she received when she was two years old.
So Kittehz, the psychiatric community that you rely on as such an authority, as more of an authority than the word of God that calls this behavior sinful, this multibillion dollar industry that labels ineffectual and dangerous the compassionate therapies for homosexuals seeking freedom from that orientation, has its own issues of credibility to deal with. Because I think it is a “corrupt and evil organization”, and
“Seems to me like they’re riding a money train on the backs of people who they convince to need their brand of snake oil, which we all know won’t work. Read up on them. It’s a textbook scam.”
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And Ree, thank you for the “warm handshake” on the Bachman thread. I am so glad I checked back there. I said before, it is your reasoned and compassionate responses that make it so easy to concede a point.
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I guess no one knows why Willow Creek hid this decision for two years, but the guess that they were ashamed of it still stands as the best option.
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This thread has raised my respect for EXODUS and Focus on the Family. But it has REALLY raised my respect for TAMMY!
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Karen, I hope you never break a bone.
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Karen,
I’m glad that someone posted about the psychotropic drugs and treatments that has more knowledge than I do.
I just read a book where the author pointed out statistically and with studies that showed that depression drugs and treatments work for less than 30% of the people. (I don’t remember the exact numbers.) And, for those who do get relief, it is only temporary for the vast majority of those people.
Yet, you can’t turn on tv without being subject to commercials for such drugs. And, you hear of such treatments all the time.
However, as you said, there is where a lot of money is! The treatments don’t work for the vast majority, but they are “accepted” and there is where some real money is being played with.
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You’re welcome, Karen. I’m glad you saw it.
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Though I’m a bit late to this conversation, I have read the entire thread and it’s tremendously obvious that responders to this subject have verified the principle that “fundamentalism is a predictor of cognitive complexity capacity” — and yes, that’s not the same as intelligence. As someone who has worked professionally with the GLBT community (as well as with African American and Hispanic/Latino minorities) for over 30 years I’ve watched the waxing and waning of MANY “ex-gay” ministries — I have yet to see one authentic change of sexual orientation and yes, I’m very familiar with Love Won Out and FotF data. Sublimation is NOT reorientation no matter how many kids one has or how ” married to the opposite gender” one is. this thread contains a little factual truth and LOTS of misconceptions and outright lies.
Inseams to begin with a perception that assumes that the Bible says (and/or means to say) certain things about an only recently understood phenomenon, sexual orientation. Lots of Biblical ignorance has been thrown around by well-meaning “defenders of the faith” who have no apparent understanding of ancient history, archeology, or Biblical context as critical tools in accurate Biblical interpretation.
Both Exodus and its defenders here presume e.g., that the Sodom story is about homosexuality. They presume that Romans 1 is about homosexuality Rather than the idolatrous orgies of self mutilation of the Galli cult and others like it. And they largely presume that homosexuality is a choice, a defect, or a sin (or all three) without realizing that growing numbers of faithful Evangelical Christians do not believe it’s any of the three.
I grew up in a day when racial purity was, preached from the pulpits as “God’s purpose.”. I firmly expect to see the day when Christians will have to similarly apologize for their sin of pushing GLBT people away from Jesus Christ by damning them as sinners for simply affirming themselves as the people that God made them to be.
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Again– “fundamentalism is a predictor of cognitive complexity capacity”. It’s a well researched fact. Look at the thread above and it’s quite obvious that some are cognitively limited to binary thinking while others see creation (and the teachings of Jesus and the continuously- evolving Christian faith) as an awesomely beautiful rainbow of Truth, paradox, ambiguity, and complexity. Without a “new birth” of vision that challenges our limited and simplistic God-view, we’ll miss most of what amazing new understandings God is continuously breaking forth around us. Only a serendipitous encounter with God that stretches us out of black and white thinking can open us to the beauty God offers us. As Scripture depicts, some with eyes, ears, (and brains) will not use these organs to see, hear, (and understand?) truth.
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RP,
Your misinterpretation of Exodus and of Romans is not accepted by ANY real Biblical scholar, because it is full of hot air. It is an attempt to justify sin.
Funny, it was interpreted as sin (and a heinous one at that) during the time of Jesus, and–while He corrected all the other misinterpretations of the rabbis–He said not one word to correct this supposed “misinterpretation.”
Your attempt to classify those of us with a Biblical understanding as less intelligent and less capable of complex thought is simply ad hominem, and will not hold water, since many of us (me included) are classified as gifted and test with high IQs and hold various degrees.
Basically, your posts are invalid and don’t add much to the discussion.
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I’m sure that these scenarios make sense by RP’s standards:
You used to be fat? Well, don’t let the fact that you no longer look fat, nor eat poorly, and are very active get in the way. You’re just “sublimating” and are STILL fat…don’t look at any evidence to the contrary.
You used to steal? Well, don’t let the fact that you’re now a policeman and that you haven’t stolen for years get in the way. You’re just sublimating. You are STILL a thief.
Just what would be enough evidence for someone like RP? Saying you are happy? No, you’re just lying to yourself. Children? No. Wife of 25 plus years? No. Getting turned on by someone of the opposite sex? No. After all, if you EVER even THINK of someone of the same sex for a nanosecond, then you must still be gay.
In other words, by RP’s standards, no one ever gets saved from their sins, because they are UNCHANGEABLE and even a minor temptation to sin makes one still a sinner–acted upon or not…forever.
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What evidence would convince someone like RP?
I submit that there would be no acceptable evidence in this person’s eyes. He (or she) has formed their worldview, created their tropes, and whatever doesn’t fit into that paradigm is simply rejected.
Talk about being blind.
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Right on, RP. It’s hard to convince the blind they want to see if they have no concept of sight.
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It’s hard to convince those without spiritual foundation to want to have it, since they are simply unable to understand it.
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
-1st Corinthians 1:18
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that the Sodom story is about homosexuality. They presume that Romans 1 is about homosexuality Rather than the idolatrous orgies of self mutilation of the Galli cult and others like it.
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Regardless if you want to acept those versus dealing with GLBT community or not. The truth of the matter is ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP OUT SIDE OF MARRIAGE IS CALLED A SIN. RP marriage in the Word of God is clear. It is between one man and one woman…..You can not get around the Word of God.
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I firmly expect to see the day when Christians will have to similarly apologize for their sin of pushing GLBT people away from Jesus Christ by damning them as sinners for simply affirming themselves as the people that God made them to be.
—-
There is no passage supporting the false teaching that God made them that way. The GLBT Community came about as the result of man’s sinful nature.
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And it’s hard to convince someone of a “spiritual foundation” when there is no evidence for it. Circular reasoning is the bread and butter of Christianity.
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spiritual foundation must be based on God’ Word.
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spiritual foundation must be based on God’ Word.
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