Unconstitutional prayers
They happen all the time, these small displacements of Christianity from the public square, like the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal’s recent slapdown of Forsyth County, N.C., commissioners for beginning their meetings with prayers “endorsing Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths.” I confess I don’t know whether to boo or applaud or be indifferent.
My first thought is that the commissioners’ endorsement of Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths is simply evidence of sound thinking. Who in his right mind endorses Christianity while embracing other faiths? In this age of wishy-washy, unprincipled politicians, ought we not applaud elected officials who are consistent in at least one thing?
Furthermore, I think that journalists covering this story are inviting me to adopt a wrong worldview, in which all religions have an equal claim on the truth, and equal likelihood of being valid. But that’s a silly worldview. The only religions that accept this idea are the spiritual social clubs, like the college-town Unitarian churches where attendees sit around affirming one another’s personalized conceptualizations of God.
But then it occurs to me that while I believe the Christian faith is true, and all other religions are therefore misguided, if I tolerate public officials weaving their religion into government business, I’m setting a precedent for the time when my fellow citizens begin electing apostates and heretics and infidels.
Not that such a thing could ever happen, of course.
But suppose it did. By embracing a constitutional interpretation in which elected officials can in effect choose a religion to endorse, might I be sowing the seeds for Christianity’s destruction?
On the other hand, when the day comes that we’re routinely electing non-Christians to the majority of public offices, we may well be cooked anyway.
And so I go back and forth in my thinking, like the wishy-washy politicians I was making fun of earlier. Yet I realize that through all these considerations, I reason from the standpoint of a Christian, as someone who doesn’t care nearly so much about whether county commissioners make wise decisions or whether non-Christians have their feelings hurt as I do about what protects Christians and advances the Kingdom of Christ. Maintaining that worldview is, I believe, essential for all of us, because we are so often tempted to view these questions through the secular mindset of fairness and neutrality. The Christian understanding is that it’s not a matter of fairness to reject other gods but of truth. And to embrace God is to eschew neutrality, by definition.
We certainly must afford everyone—Christian and non-Christian alike—dignity and freedom of choice about his or her faith, just as our Savior has done, speaking truth but forcing no one to follow Him. This doesn’t equate, as the secularist wishes it did, to privatizing our faith. To do that is to adopt a very different religion, humanism, which can be summed up in the faith that mankind will not behave as he has for most of his history, by murdering and dominating his fellow humans as he crafts false idols to fall down and worship, but will instead be reborn—by the grace of public education and enlightened legislators—a tolerant, productive, non-judgmental citizen.
In other words, we can never have a faith-free, value-neutral society. Even the people who pretend otherwise are peddling their own kind of faith, their own religious values. So the question is, which set of rules best affords Christianity room to flourish, while treating non-Christians as Christ would have them treated by His followers? And how does open prayer by public officials fit into that? Should we condone it, condemn it, or get over it?

















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back to top163 Comments to “Unconstitutional prayers”
I agree 100%. The 1st Amendment has to do with individual freedom. It is the freedom to offend. It says nothing about the freedom to not be offended. That wouldn’t be freedom at all.
An individual speaking his mind may offend “the many”. But he is free to do so and “the many” is free to ignore him. However, the 1st Amendment has been twisted into the exact opposite. It is now interpreted to mean censorship of the few if the many might be offended. That is not freedom. That is tyranny.
How can the freedom to not hear something be even remotely related to freedom of expression?
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Good questions. These are exactly the categories in which we should think about religion in public life.
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I think it would serve the Kingdom best, and be true to our national heritage, if we advocated for more speech, not less. The commissioners maybe should open their meetings with prayer from whatever faith traditions want to be represented. If there wasn’t a prayer offered that was meaningful to you and for which you could say an honest “amen”, than publicly say one…as long as the whole point of the prayer is truly to bless and benefit the meeting you are attending.
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I run a government funded agency and I have meetings of the volunteers that work for us and when we dine together, I often say a prayer thanking God for the food and opportunity and I offer my thanks in Jesus’ name. I will then ask if anyone else wants to offer a prayer in their tradition. No one has taken me up on it yet, but if they did, I would politely listen and move on after it was done.
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Why is it so darned important to you guys that the government endorse and enforce your religion?
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Tony’s article is totally wrongheaded. IT IS AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT FUNCTION. The government exists to serve all citizens, not just Christians.
But you all howl and whine like hyenas when somebody suggests that the government shouldn’t be offering official prayers that endorse your faith — and you’d howl and whine just as loud if they opened with a prayer to Allah or a pagan calling of the quarters.
Your faith must be very weak if you need the Forsyth County Commission’s help to express it.
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I confess I don’t know whether to boo or applaud or be indifferent.
As for me, I applaud. Not because I find Christianity abhorrent or believe that all religions have an equal claim on the truth, but because I fully and unequivocally support the notion that the state should not endorse Christianity. And, by extension, that agents of the state should not endorse Christianity in their capacity as agents of the state.
So, for instance, if a believing member of the Forsyth Co. Commissioners were to reach out to other believing members and organize a short, private prayer meeting that would take place immediately prior to all official public meetings, I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
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Denying someone a government platform isn’t censorship.
Tony goes “back and forth” but his thoughts are like a tilted metronome whose pendulum can’t quite swing all the way over to one side, causing an annoying little irregularity. Tony can’t quite get the words out to say that other individuals have a constitutional right to object to an establishment of religion, regardless of whether that’s good or bad.
Government prayer doesn’t just get people’s “feelings hurt,” it gets into their wallets.
I’m sure that when Tony visits someone’s house he asks permission before he plugs in his cell phone charger. A penny of electricity isn’t significant, but it’s not Tony’s electricity.
I’ve got a proposal. Instead of arguing about whether government prayer is constitutional why don’t we argue an Amendment to enshrine true Christian worship in every office of government. That’s what y’all really want, so make the case!
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Slam dunk decision. Only in the 4th or maybe one or two other circuits could even one judge miss this. I hope the County is stupid enough to go to the Supremes. They would likely take it, because this pledge, or whatever it is, makes very overt and specific the problem that led to the the Establishment Clause; belief in or endorsement of any one religion is a rejection of all other religions or belief systems.
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They are not asking for an endorsement. No one is advocating a state religion — and you know it, Conan.
Prayer was at the Continental Congress and the Capitol from the inception of this country. This is another thing we need to reclaim as a Nation.
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Oh heck, I just read the case. It’s a run of the mill legislative prayer case; at least I didn’t see any language referring to anything as drastic as endorsing Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths. One of the prayers might have come close.
Of course that slapdown is always implicit in governmental prayer cases: I thought from the language above that the Commissioners had made it explicit.
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In response to Buddyglass…So, for instance, if a believing member of the Forsyth Co. Commissioners were to reach out to other believing members and organize a short, private prayer meeting that would take place immediately prior to all official public meetings, I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
Let me rephrase that with some KEY changes…
So, for instance, if ANY member OR NON-MEMBER of the Forsyth Co. Commissioners were to reach out to ANY members and organize a short, PUBLIC prayer meeting that would take place immediately prior to all official public meetings, I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
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So Ernie, if somehow the county elected a Wiccan to the County Commission, who became the chairman of it and opened all the meetings with an invocation to the Wiccan God and Goddess, and cast a circle of protection before each meeting, you would have no problem with that whatsoever?>
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NJL: They are not asking for an endorsement. No one is advocating a state religion — and you know it, Conan.
See #13.
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I think one of the key phrases in Tony’s post is:
“The Christian understanding is that it’s not a matter of fairness to reject other gods but of truth. And to embrace God is to eschew neutrality, by definition.”
When non-Christians pray at government sponsored events I do disagree with the content of their prayers, but support their right as Americans to declare their beliefs. Those people who object to Christian prayers seem to object to both the content of prayers and the right to express them. In that way it seems to me that it is the opponents of Christian prayers who are being unAmerican. I can’t think of an instance where Christians have sued to prevent non-Christians from praying.
The real answer to the apparent dilemma is found in who is receiving and answering the prayers. If no one is receiving the prayer and any answers are all imaginary the prayer is quite irrelevant regardless of the fervency or the sincerity of the prayer. If however there is a Deity Who really does receive and answer the matter is of supreme importance, and only fools would seek to stop it.
It is not a court that will make the final determination as to the value and appropriateness of a particular prayer. It is Truth that will decide. Like Elijah I welcome the test. If a prayer really is a conversation with God, of what are we afraid? But then maybe that is the real fear.
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No, let ‘em speak, Conan.
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So, for instance, if ANY member OR NON-MEMBER of the Forsyth Co. Commissioners were to reach out to ANY members and organize a short, PUBLIC prayer meeting that would take place immediately prior to all official public meetings, I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
I’m fine with your changes. When the prayer is part of the meeting, that obligates attendees to sit through it. If the prayer is a separate thing, rather than being built in to a government function, then it becomes far less objectionable.
So, for example, if the meetings were scheduled to start at noon and some group of members and non-members want to meet at 11:30 to pray, that’s fine with me so long as attendance is optional and they do it in a “public space” (or on someone’s private property). That is to say I wouldn’t support their using state property for the prayer meeting unless that property were intended to be a “public space” (e.g. a city park or a sidewalk.)
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I don’t know what you are so afraid of. You don’t have to listen, and you get to support free speech and free exercise.
What I’m reading in all the negative comments is a hatred of Christianty in particular. What discrimination from people who are always calling Christians names.
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Neil: I can’t think of an instance where Christians have sued to prevent non-Christians from praying.
Neil, can you think of an instance where non-Christian elected officials have prayed or performed religious rites in their own religions as part of a civic (non-religious) event?
I suggest the reason Christians don’t sue non-Christians in such instances is that in this country, Christianity is so dominant that there ARE no such instances, or very very few.
That is changing, though, and this innocent “I don’t see the harm” line is going to be tested soon. When it’s a Muslim or a pagan or a Hindu offering prayers to their gods as they open a meeting of the county commission, I will be very surprised if we hear the same calls for religious tolerance from the conservative evangelicals that we’re hearing at the moment.
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What I’m reading in all the negative comments is a hatred of Christianty in particular.
Of course you are. Because many conservative Christians have a persecution complex and can’t imagine any reason why anyone would object to Christian prayers at a public event unless they just hate Christianity.
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And NJL, we’re not “afraid” of anything about it. We believe in TRUE freedom of religion, which includes the right to not have someone else’s religion elevated above your own at an event intended to be for all citizens.
Conservative Christians think the Founding Fathers meant to write “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a non-Christian religion or inhibiting the free exercise of Christianity” and something got lost in the copying process.
You don’t believe in freedom for all Americans, clearly. I do.
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To Conan and Buddy…
Right!, Free Speech for all. Let “Social Control” do the weeding out of what is acceptable to the listener, not the government censors. The government should not bar free speech from government property whether at a meeting or not. Civilized, and orderly yes, but no censorship due to religious content. Freedom os religion, even those we disagree with.
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I would suggest that Tony proposes something of a false dichotomy in his choice of worldviews. Tony provides two options: (1) a worldview that acknowledges both general revelation and special revelation, but conflates the two; and (2) a worldview that acknowledges only special revelation.
Well, I’d suggest at least a third option–an option that has been the predominant worldview for the past 400+ years of Protestant Christianity. The third option acknowledges both special revelation and general revelation, but does not conflate the two. This third option believes that principles drawn from special revelation are only intended to be binding on the Christian, by means of the church and her courts (at least until the Parousia). This third option believes that everything outside of the church is to be governed by appeals to general revelation. The Reformers arrived at this “two kingdoms” approach, in part, by recognizing that the Gospel always loses out when special revelation becomes confused with general revelation.
And so it is today. Most evangelicals would flunk any test on basic Protestant theology. Yet evangelicals presume to know all about God’s views on marginal tax rates, same-sex civil marriage, birth control, etc. When general revelation and special revelation become conflated, the church simply becomes the handmaiden of the state and the Gospel becomes reduced to namby-pamby moralism.
That being said, the Constitution may protect certain forms of public religious speech that are otherwise the product of bad theology. As a Christian, I would prefer that no county council anywhere invoke the name of Christ. After all, Christ has committed the keys of the kingdom to the church and her courts, not to popularly elected county councils. A county council’s invoking the name of Christ, in my view, is blasphemy, as it suggests that the county council bears some stamp of spiritual legitimacy. By participating this blasphemy with such nonchalance, the members of the county council simply show themselves to be utter strangers to the God whose name they invoke. (After all, if they were of the elect, they would know better. One of the ways in which God blinds the non-elect is by cursing them with bad theology.) But I trust that our Constitution protects the right of county councils to engage in blasphemy.
In this case, the Fourth Circuit struck down the county’s practice because the prayers being offered at county council meetings did not reflect the diversity of religions within the county. The Supreme Court precedent is pretty clear on the issue: Public displays of religion must reflect the diversity of religious practice within the relevant community, and not merely reinforce the predominant religious practices within the relevant community. The Court determined that Forsyth County’s practice had the effect of reinforcing the majority status of Christianity within the community, which may thereby cause the objective observer to believe that the council favored Christians to the exclusion of those of other religions. If Forsyth County integrates Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Wiccans, and others into the council’s prayer calendar, then there would be no problem under the First Amendment.
Of course, in my view, it would still be blasphemy for anyone to offer a Christian prayer at a county council meeting, although such blasphemy would be constitutionally protected in certain instances.
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Actually, my second sentence, above should read:
Tony provides two options: (1) a worldview that acknowledges both general revelation and special revelation, but conflates the two; and (2) a worldview that acknowledges only general revelation.
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Conan, your position of “no elevation” actually makes any religious action impossible for in however short the moment of prayer or observance that particular religion is elevated. A prayer that included all beliefs would be silly and meaningless indeed. Your position ultimately comes down to NO religion which is in fact impossible given the fact that virtually every belief (or non-belief) system involves religious foundations.
Ernie Lee’s comments in #22 describe the attitude of the vast majority of Christians in America.
Again, where are the examples of Christians suing to stop non-Christians from exercising their religious beliefs in a civilized and orderly manner? “I think they might start soon,” is an answer beneath you.
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NEIL EVANS, How about the “ground zero (NOT) mosque”?
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Again, where are the examples of Christians suing to stop non-Christians from exercising their religious beliefs in a civilized and orderly manner?
Here’s one about some Christians suing to stop an art installation that included a sculpture of the Hindu god “Ganesha” based on church-state separation grounds.
Then there’s the complaint by Tom Ascol of the SBC about the San Diego schools setting aside 15 minutes a day for voluntary student prayer. Why would he complain, given the SBC’s frequent and vocal support of school prayer? Why, that’d be because San Diego has a large Somali Muslim population.
See also: Murfreesboro Mosque & Park51 Community Center.
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SM I am sure that you can find some instances where non-Christian activities have been objected to. The point is that there is no Christian ACLU that goes around suing every religious non-Christian use of public venues.
The objections to the ground zero mosque are primarily national and cultural. i.e.: “Why should we let those who bombed us build their monument next to the site they bombed.” Those feelings are debatable but certainly not grounded in Christian objections to the rights of Muslims to build mosques in America.
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BG, the opposition to the Hindu sculpture was by the “Constitution Party”. You can do better than that.
The San Diego illustration is valid. (though I don’t see a law suit, just an objection) I personally am not in favor of regular daily set aside times of prayer in public school. There are many things I object to that I do not attempt to stop precisely because of the freedoms unique to America.
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Sorry, Conan, but I simply do not believe you. Did I object to prayer? No.
It is not I who am against freedom.
But more than that, you suffer overwhelmingly with the inability to accept Christ in any way, and for that I feel sorr for you.
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“..4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal’s recent slapdown of Forsyth County..”
—-
That’s about as significant as a Jerichonian court taking a stand on what to do about the coming of Joshua and co.
“And the city shall be accursed, [even] it, and all that [are] therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that [are] with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.” (Jos 6:17)
“By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.” (Heb 11:31)
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Neil: Conan, your position of “no elevation” actually makes any religious action impossible for in however short the moment of prayer or observance that particular religion is elevated. A prayer that included all beliefs would be silly and meaningless indeed.
I agree. The question, Neil, is … why does a meeting of a civic government need to have any prayer at all?
They are there to make decisions about millage rates and garbage collection schedules and whether the intersection of Elm and Maple streets needs a traffic light. That’s what they’re elected to do. That’s why they hold meetings.
This is not an occasion that NEEDS any “religious action.” It is not a religious function.
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Here is another instance of Christians getting upset when a different religion is favored by the state.
Neil Evans: The point is that there is no Christian ACLU that goes around suing every religious non-Christian use of public venues.
I’m not really sure what purpose your hypothetical “Christian ACLU” would serve. There are plenty of Christians that support the First Amendment, and they find common cause with people of many different religions or no religion at all in opposing all state-sponsored religion (Christian or otherwise).
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This is hardly a surprise.
Extreme liberals and non-believers are very tolerant of speech, so long as it’s speech they agree with. Typically, these types are a hostile and intolerant lot that also seem to be quite paranoid of something they claim doesn’t exist.
It seems to me that most of these poepl live in constant fear of life because they will never live long enough to achieve any purpose of their own. They live only to complain about things they don’t believe in.
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Just look at the frivolous lawsuit against Rick Perry that was recently thrown out that was intended to stop him from attending a prayer rally and praying to God just as billions of Christians do every day.
It is pretty evident these anti-God zealots are desperate to belittle or intimidate anyone with faith.
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#27 Why would he complain, given the SBC’s frequent and vocal support of school prayer? Why, that’d be because San Diego has a large Somali Muslim population.
How obtuse can you be. Public schools with Muslim populations are permitted to have prayer times, while public schools with Christian populations are not. I still remember the last year we were allowed to pray or recite the psalms before starting class. No one who didn’t want to participate had to, but that just wasn’t good enough for our noxious federal government who threatened to cut funding if we didn’t stop. Now I ardently wish we had made them cut the funding. We should cut it now, and let the local communities do what they want with their own taxes.
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Conan says,
Similar reason as why it’s so important to you guys that it endorse and enforce yours. There’s no neutrality, Conan. You guys just won’t acknowledge that your commitment to the lordship of demos is a religious commitment, just as our commitment to the lordship of Christ is, because you either cannot or will not understand the nature of religious faith.
True, but a non sequitur in the context of this topic.
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You make some good points. I would like to challenge one comment:
“when the day comes that we’re routinely electing non-Christians to the majority of public offices…” it would be better to say “IF the day comes…”
I hope you don’t share the all too common defeatist Christian mindset that “of course things will get worse and worse”. The Word says “The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” – How will this happen if the Church is aa frightened tiny minority huddled in a cave somewhere (taking the thinking to the extreme)? There is a mulititude of scriptures that point to the people of God growing in influence until the end. Trials, persecutions and tribulations? Yes, but this does not mean the Church must be weak and ineffective.
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Neil:
The objections to the ground zero mosque are primarily national and cultural. i.e.: “Why should we let those who bombed us…
Who? “The Muslims”? They’re all evil, you know. If Jesus had ever known about them he would have told us so.
In case you hadn’t noticed, when it comes to rights, or lack of rights, the Constitution does not reward popularity.
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A hypothetical Christian ACLU could (but my point is that it is not the general Christian methodology) do like the real ACLU does and oppose with law suits, or threats thereof, all manner of non-Christian activities. The great majority of Christian legal actions are not trying to stop non-Christian activities, but defending themselves from those trying to stop Christian activities.
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Arcadia, I was merely suggesting the sentiment of many Americans. I suspect that Muslim individuals are genuinely loved more by Christians than by non-Christians such as yourself.
In fact Jesus did tell us about evil people. But then you knew that.
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As a resident of the county in question here I have a few thoughts and facts. The commissioners themselves did not offer the prayers. The prayers were offered by a rotation of citizens, most who happen to be pastors in local churches. The defense of their policy was funded by private donations and the county expended no tax funds defending their practice.
I personally don’t know if it is good or bad, though I do like it. We have a pretty good council they have done a good job of keeping taxes low while funding services that people seem to want without a lot of waste. To me that is far more important than the opening prayer.
Am I the only one who finds it troubling that US House of Representatives (during both Democrat and Republican majorities), the US Senate and many legislative bodies in states across the land open their sessions with prayers, many prayed in the name of Christ and yet because of separation of powers they are immune from the judicial retribution.
The famous alleged deist Benjamin Franklin said about prayer before meetings:
“I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live,
the more convincing proofs I see of this truth:
that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a
sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice,
is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?
We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings,
that ‘except the Lord build the House they labour
in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also
believe that without his concurring aid we shall
succeed in this political building no better, than the
Builders of Babel . . . I therefore beg leave to move—
that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance
of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations,
be held in this Assembly every morning before
we proceed to business, and that one or more
of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate
in that Service.”
June 28, 1787
I am growing tired of being force fed by every oppressed group’s sacred rites; same sex marriage, free birth control for our young teens & abortion. I mean if we were offering communion that might be too much but it’s just a little prayer, join in, or get over it. It is not an establishment of anything!
An aware citizen Forsyth County, NC.
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Neil Evans: A hypothetical Christian ACLU could (but my point is that it is not the general Christian methodology) do like the real ACLU does and oppose with law suits, or threats thereof, all manner of non-Christian activities. The great majority of Christian legal actions are not trying to stop non-Christian activities, but defending themselves from those trying to stop Christian activities.
Okay, I see what you mean now, but this is a false equivalence. When people file lawsuits to prevent the government from promoting religion, they are defending the First Amendment, which applies to all religions. It just so happens that we live in a country with upwards of 70% Christians, so nearly all of these incidents involve Christianity. What you are describing with your “Christian ACLU” is a group that promotes Christian bigotry by ignoring the overwhelming number of Christian infractions on the First Amendment to focus on the minuscule number of non-Christian infractions. As it turns out, we do have plenty of groups that promote Christian bigotry, but it is normally focused on things like same-sex marriage rather than religious freedom.
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Speaking (even if it’s a prayer) can not be a 1st Amendment infraction, and no institutionalization of religion has occurred in government simply by a member thereof praying in a public venue…to any deity. If someone were to begin the legislative session by offering prayers to Krishna, I would not bow my head and close my eyes. Nor would I jump up and yell for them to shut-up due to separation of church and state. Nor would I sue. I would silently pray to my God, and immediately begin to work to elect officials that do not pray to Krishna (and who do pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) and who uphold my values as a citizen. That’s called freedom of religion and freedom of speech and self-government. And those who work against the freedom to pray publicly are working against these fundamental freedoms.
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Ree:
True, but a non sequitur in the context of this topic.
No, it’s directly on point. As I said in #32, a county commission — or a state legislature, city council, congress or any lawmaking body — meets to make decisions on ordinances and laws govern the functioning of their jurisdiction.
There’s no need to have a prayer at such functions at all, of any kind. And when you do, you inevitably open this can of worms. You can’t (legitimately) pray in any specific faith tradition without implying that citizens of other religions are of lesser importance to the governing body. And as Neil correctly points out, you can’t pray in generic, inclusive terms without watering the prayer down to the point of meaninglessness.
Your argument appears to be that if the governing body just gets down to the businesses of governing without first invoking a deity of somebody’s choosing (as long as it’s Christian, right?), is itself a religious action. That’s just absurd. What that is is, the governing body doing its job for all the citizens it serves. As it should.
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Let the Christians pray to Jesus in their churches. Let the Muslims pray to Allah in their mosques. Let the Jews pray to YHVH in their synagogues. Let the Wiccans invoke the god and goddess in their coven. Let us UUs reflect on the profound Mystery of existence in our congregations.
And then let us all meet to decide whether the intersection of Elm and Maple needs a traffic light as members of the same community, without turning that gathering into an argument over whose religion is the right one.
Why is that such an objectionable idea?
I have a suspicion.
A generation or two ago, America was almost totally Christian, with a few Jews and the occasional cranky atheist turning up here and there. Governing bodies could open their meetings with Christian prayer and no one would object or even want to.
Things have changed enough that in many places that’s not the case anymore. The numbers of atheists and members of non-Christian religions have grown to the point that they’re now objecting to their elected representatives implicitly marginalizing them by opening meetings with a declaration of religious belief that is no longer shared by everyone.
We get into these arguments because one side — the same side that is also prone to apoplexy about immigration and homosexuality — longs for a return to the time when the country was homogenous and Christian. You see the prayers more as an expression of defiance against the changing demographics of the country than as devotion to God, and so the suggestion to give them up sounds to you like another step in the change.
And I suppose it is. Nevertheless, it is the reality of the time.
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Of course, the equality of all religions was a central doctrine of our founding, as you guys keep reminding us and teaching our children. Patrick Henry summarized that principle this way,
“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
Sure there isn’t. We can just ignore the one to whom we owe all our blessings, and pretend it’s all the result of our own wisdom and efforts.
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While Henry was undoubtedly a zealous believer, unlike many of his contemporaries, that quote is falsely attributed.
I mostly agree with Conan’s #46. It’s totally appropriate to have an audible prayer in your own house, or your own church, without concern for others being “excluded”. For instance, if I had friends or family over to my house for Thanksgiving dinner and wanted to pray before the meal, I’m not going to stop myself because some of them might not be Christians. It’s reasonable to expect them to sit through a prayer without being offended. It is, after all, my house.
The same isn’t true for a public city meeting. It’s a public forum, and members of the public shouldn’t have to sit through prayers they find objectionable just to participate in city government. That said, it strikes me as a pretty minor offense in the pantheon of church/state separation issues. It’s not like they were leading children in Christian prayers at school.
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Conan is arguing exactly what the Supreme Court has decided and what many American’s agree with, which is:
However the reason the Supreme Court and many Americans interpret the establishment clause this way is not because that is what it says, but because it achieves the outcome they want, which is to silence all speech they don’t like.
And so, the freedom to speak whatever you believe, even if it is offensive, is twisted to mean the freedom to not hear anything offensive. It is obvious that censorship isn’t anything like FREEDOM, but it doesn’t matter because we don’t want to listen to religion.
The same twisting of the law occurs all of the time. Smoking and gambling and many other freedoms have been banned because people don’t like those things. It doesn’t matter if it is a loss of freedom. It is the kind of loss people want.
Americans no longer understand what FREEDOM means, nor do they care. Government is happy to oblige and take it away.
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Let me state Conan’s statement more succinctly …
This statement is straight out of Orwell’s 1984. It was called ‘newspeak’. It is the language of totalitarianism.
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Conan #46 addresses a core issue. What kind of society do we want? Granted the past is generally neither as bad or as good as we remember, or like to remember. However is is safe to say that our America would not be what it was or is if it had been founded by people like Alexander the Great, Mohammed, Stalin, or even the Pope. It was a very unique collection of people who had a Biblical perspective of civil life. It seems obvious that America is moving away from that foundation toward a culture that seeks to build a nation with Christ’s virtues without Christ.
Public prayers have historically been our society’s way of acknowledging our dependence on and desire for God’s guidance and provision. Those pressing to end public (even official) prayers are consciously or unconsciously asking that America cease to be what it has been. We cannot conceive what our world would be like without the powerfully gracious and just influence of the United States of America. (Though many cynics try) And, yes, I recognize that we have been and are far from perfect; we have made many mistakes and there have been gross hypocrisies, but we still remain the one country to which most people desire to immigrate. And, it is primarily praying Christian people who built what is desirable about America. People are denying that foundation and moving America in different directions. We will likely see more and more what it is like to live in a culture independent of God.
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Buddyglass,
Thanks for the correction. I should’ve verified it myself. I chose it among others because it was such a conveniently succinct summary of the sentiments evident elsewhere in the Founding Fathers, but apparently it was too convenient. Although I certainly wouldn’t have used it if I’d been as thorough as I generally tend to be in my research, it expresses the truth.
But the main point that I was making, that I’ve made to Conan countless times, but that he just can’t seem to wrap his mind around, is that there is no neutrality. The way he wants the government to run is consistent with his conception of ultimate reality and a denial of the Christian one. I understand why he wants it to be run that way, but somehow, he can’t understand why we would want it otherwise. And although there was never any guarantee that we would continue to function according to the principles of our founders, for those who claim to value truth, it would be nice if they could at least acknowledge what those principles were.
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Neil Evans,
Good points, and I agree with your whole post except the last line. You said,
Nothing functions independently of God. The issue is whether we’ll acknowledge and honor Him or whether we’ll ignore Him. I assume you won’t dispute that, but it seemed worth mentioning.
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Yes, REE, I agree.
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Well said, Neil and Ree (52 & 53)
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I am fascinated by the psychology and philosophy of language especially as used by progressives in modern America. When words and concepts come to mean the opposite, people seem to be generally fine with that if it produces the outcome they want.
There is a concept called Linguistic Relativity which asks the question “Does thought influence language or does language influence thought?”
As we observe daily, political speech by progressives is often not about the reality which is, but the reality that can be or should be. For example, the science of Global Warming is irrelevant. What is important is fighting it, say by instituting a Green Economy and other such means.
Modern progressives create a narrative that is repeated continually in schools in the media until it becomes reality. This is how doublethink concepts become part of the national psyche and narrative known as a “Weltanschauung” or nationalist world view.
Americans now accept political correctness without question, concepts like “Freedom is NOT Freedom”, “Unity through Diversity”, “Curing debt with more debt”, “Ending racism through racism”. American traditionalists are unAmerican. Injustice is justice. Fiscal responsibility is terrorism. Hatred is the new Love. Conservatives are always wrong. These concepts can be found in nearly every speech by the president and nearly every newscast.
The control of speech in democratic countries is more subtle than under clearly totalitarian regimes in that it is mostly voluntary. History is rewritten voluntarily according to politically correctness. People voluntarily get their news from Jon Stuart and Bill Maher (who hosted the politically correct show called Politically Incorrect) because it reinforces the narrative. They voluntarily give up freedom as long as it only affects someone else.
Different standards apply depending on how you think. Equal protection under the law depends on which side you are on. A person’s freedom can be taken away if he thinks incorrectly. If you think that God is our Creator, then you have fewer freedoms than a person who thinks he isn’t. And people are generally fine with that.
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“So Ernie, if somehow the county elected a Wiccan to the County Commission, who became the chairman of it and opened all the meetings with an invocation to the Wiccan God and Goddess, and cast a circle of protection before each meeting, you would have no problem with that whatsoever?> ”
Speaking for myself, not for Ernie, sure I’d have a problem with it. It’s idolatry.
But the question isn’t whether anyone has a problem with it, the question is whether it ought to be illegal. I can’t see why it should be.
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Ree: Sure there isn’t. We can just ignore the one to whom we owe all our blessings, and pretend it’s all the result of our own wisdom and efforts.
Or we could take freedom of religion seriously and agree that the government isn’t the church, or the mosque, or the synagogue.
You don’t get how arrogant you sound, do you? Implicit in your statement is your certainty that your belief about who/what that “one” is is the correct one. Yes, we’ll tolerate the silly beliefs of other religions, but our government will invoke the Christian God because everybody knows that’s the right one.
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Re# 50: Xion, I will return the favor and restate your position more accurately:
“True freedom of religion is the freedom to force everybody else to practice my religion, at least for a moment, if they want to come to a county commission meeting.”
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No, I get how arrogant it sounds to you and to those who think like you. Heck, it would’ve sounded arrogant to me when I thought like you do, and not only before I was converted to Christ, but even after I was, but before I learned to recognize the inherently skeptical epistemology I’d absorbed from the atmosphere in which I learned to think. What I hope that you would get, though, is that it’s only arrogant based on your epistemological assumption, which is that God has not sufficiently revealed Himself. But based on Christian assumptions, it’s supremely arrogant to deny the God who has uniquely created man to know Him and has revealed Himself sufficiently that we owe Him our worship and obedience.
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Being in the presence of a prayer is not practicing religion.
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“Or we could take freedom of religion seriously and agree that the government isn’t the church, or the mosque, or the synagogue.”
The First Amendment doesn’t have any limiting clauses for the practice of religion only in certain venues. Religion that can only be practiced when it’s hidden from view is anything BUT free.
C.S. Lewis once said, “They’ll promise you can you practice your religion in private, and then make sure you’re never alone.” When a group of citizens gathering to decide on a traffic light are forbidden from practicing their religion, nobody’s freedom is being protected, it’s being restricted.
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The arguments here have focused primarily on one’s right to pray, which should be without question. But the other question is whether it is appropriate to pray at a town meeting. Let’s see…
What is the purpose of a commissioners meeting?
Commissioners are elected by the community to address community issues, such as taxation, appropriations, ordinances, municipal affairs, public works, finance, or public safety and so on.
What does prayer have to do with the temporal affairs of a local community? Why do many meetings of all sorts throughout American history always open prayer?
The answer can be found in any church business meeting which opens with prayer. The purpose is to set a serious tone and to appeal to the God of truth and wisdom to provide guidance so that the outcome might be in the best interest of the community.
Is there anything wrong with starting a meeting with an appeal to wisdom and truth and to call everyone there to consider each matter seriously to determine what is best for the community? Of course not.
The problem is that Christianity no longer represents an appeal to truth and wisdom. In our religiously ignorant pagan nation it has come to represent falsehood, backwardness and lunacy. No one would want to start a meeting with an appeal to falsehood and lunacy.
And so it is up to Christians who lead these meetings to understand the purpose and to set the proper tone and example. Truth is more important than religion. A meeting run with wisdom is more important than one started by prayer.
If a Christian wants to open a public meeting with prayer, I would do it something like this:
Is there anyone who would object to that? Is that not setting the right tone and purpose for a public meeting? If the only purpose of the prayer were to coerce people toward a particular religion, even I would object, though I would recognize that it is perfectly legal and the courts should have no jurisdiction.
This discussion always devolves into the false dichotomy that if one person can push his religion then everyone should be allowed to push theirs. The purpose of prayer at a meeting like this should never be to push a religion. It should always be to conduct the meeting in a way that is respectful and serious to produce a wise outcome.
Christians participating in community affairs should put the affairs of the community first and should lead with wisdom.
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Conan, from your perspective would you consider prohibiting prayer at a government meeting as forcing Christians to practice the belief that God is irrelevant for that time and place?
Lacking courteous coexistence it seems to me that we are doomed to irreconcilable differences. In America those differences are most often decided by majority opinion, tempered by compromise. It seems to me that you and others are arguing for total removal of Christian activity from the public square. It seems that Christian abuses could quite easily be addressed without denying the entire movement.
You are correct that the government is not the church, nor is the church the government. However, in America, as in many other countries, our majority religion has had and does have a dynamic influence on the character of our government. In contrast to many non-Christian countries, in America our religious influence has been especially for good in developing the kind, generous and just nature of our government. Could it be that the failures and absences of those Christ-like attributes is the direct result of not applying the Biblical values upon which our country was founded?
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Good comments XION.
I am often asked to pray at city government functions. My focus is always on talking to God not to the people. Any of them are free to listen or not. I talk to God about our need for just the things you describe, wisdom, cooperation, etc. You are correct that prayer used to coerce others is neither appropriate nor effective.
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As you’ve no doubt heard before, our nation’s founder conceived of the “seperation of church and state” as a means to protect the church from the state, not vice versa. Like it or not, our nation became great, is great and will only remain great because and so long as King Jesus remains on its throne.
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Indeed, and it’s not even as if the First Amendment was designed to prohibit an officially acknowledged religion in the individual colonies. At the time of the establishment of the Constitution, 9 out of 13 colonies had an official religion that was recognized. The first amendment is about Congress not establishing any church–in other words, no federally recognized official church of the United States equivalent to the Anglican church in England, the Lutheran Church in Finland, etc. And it certainly was the farthest thing from the minds of our Founders that government officials couldn’t pray in an official capacity or that government schools couldn’t teach from the Bible.
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Ree at #60: What you are arguing is reasons why everyone should accept Christ and be a Christian. What I am arguing is why a meeting of a governing body should just do the people’s business and not inject a contentious religious expression into it.
Those are two different conversations.
You said: No, I get how arrogant it sounds to you and to those who think like you. Heck, it would’ve sounded arrogant to me when I thought like you do,
And that alone is enough to say that therefore, the county commission meeting isn’t the right time or place to arrogantly assert the superiority of Christianity by making everyone sit through a Christian prayer.
I didn’t vote for my county commissioner so he could convert me to his religion or even require me to attend a prayer service. I just want him to be sure the potholes in my street get patched.
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Pentamom: The First Amendment doesn’t have any limiting clauses for the practice of religion only in certain venues. Religion that can only be practiced when it’s hidden from view is anything BUT free.
You missed my point.
I have no issue with religious expression by private citizens in public places. The freedom of speech shouldn’t be restricted. The problem comes when elected officials who are not supposed to play favorites in their work for their constituents decide to honor one religion and ignore all others in their meetings.
I’m amazed that this seems to be hard for some people to understand.
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Neil: Conan, from your perspective would you consider prohibiting prayer at a government meeting as forcing Christians to practice the belief that God is irrelevant for that time and place?
No, I wouldn’t. Because nothing’s stopping those members who want to pray for God’s guidance from doing so, without sending the implicit message that citizens who are not Christian are less important or less likely to get a hearing for their needs.
If you attended a meeting of your town’s council and found that they opened with a prayer to Thor and Odin, because the council president and two other members were Asatru adherents, would you be ok with that?
People always say ’sure, that would be fine’ when I ask that, but really, I don’t believe that for a minute. If you found out that your town council was run by polytheists who were invoking pagan gods, I am pretty sure you’d be deeply troubled.
But you don’t see anything wrong with having polytheistic pagans in your town sit through a Christian prayer and have it made clear to them that their religion isn’t popular with their elected officials.
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Neil: It seems to me that you and others are arguing for total removal of Christian activity from the public square.
Nope. All I’m asking is that people in a position that gives implicit government endorsement to a religious expression keep it out of meetings that are called to conduct official government business.
That has no bearing on private citizens preaching in the public park and handing out tracts on the streets. There’s no issue with activities like that.
As I said earlier, this is not a difficult concept, and yet people seem to have enormous difficulty figuring out the difference. How do you go from my saying “don’t open the county commission meeting with a Christian prayer’ to your concluding that I want “total removal of Christian activity from the public square?” Those are not even close to the same thing.
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The truth is Conan that prayers were said in the Capitol of this country from the beginning. That is the truth you will not face. And the country did well.
It is not doing so well since people like you and the ACLU and other Leftists came up with this nonsense that the Constitution bars the mere mention of Jesus in public.
It’s YOUR problems, YOUR discrimination, YOUR hatred. If Christ didn’t convict you your hears, you and yours wouldn’t be out to destroy him. We’ve been down this road since the crucifixion. We’re used to it — and we will survive it as Christians.
Not so sure about survival as Americans. But that’s what happens when you deny your heritage. You lose it.
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Christianity built this country.
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OK…”Because nothing’s stopping those members who [do not] want to pray for God’s guidance from [not] doing so, without sending the implicit message that citizens who are ___ Christian are less important or less likely to get a hearing for their needs.”
The fact is that there have been many law suit attempts to stop private citizens from Christian activities in public places. Saying “don’t open the county commission meeting with a Christian prayer” is clearly not the limit of anti-Christian complaints.
I think you have made it clear that you are offended by government sanctioning Christian activities. You have several options: -patiently tolerate the personal affront;
-verbally (in speech or writing) complain in venues available to you;
-initiate or join legal actions to challenge the activities;
-join confrontive and disruptive protests;
-pray to your Deity to intervene on your behalf;
-join subversive movements seeking to fundamentally alter the foundation of American history;
and I’m sure there are other thing you could do.
By the way, Christians have similar options when they are offended by non-Christian behaviors. I think that in the vast majority of cases true Christians choose to tolerate the personal affront while praying for the offender. That is certainly what Jesus did.
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Neil: I think you have made it clear that you are offended by government sanctioning Christian activities.
So should you be, or anyone else who values freedom of religion — including the freedom of non-Christians to be able to take part in their government without having their religious beliefs marginalized in the process.
But to be clear, I am not offended by Christianity or public expressions of it. I am offended by the arrogance expressed in all the comments arguing that Christianity has some kind of unique right to be imposed on other people despite the Constitutional protections of their freedom of religion.
And yes I know that having to listen to a brief prayer is minor as impositions go, but it still is there and there’s no good reason it should be.
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Conan, I respect and accept your statement that you are not offended by Christianity. But, while some may be arrogant in their expressions, it is a fact that as the historically and foundationally dominant religion in America, Christianity does have a unique right to be expressed in our culture. The general expressions of Christianity can hardly be classed as impositions except by those with a unique objection to Christianity. There are certainly very few instances where non-Christians are prohibited from the free exercise of their religion.
Isn’t it true as well that in America it is primarily Christians who established and have maintained the rights of all religions to be freely practiced. It really is a radical contrast to many other countries in the world where non-dominant religions are harshly limited. Non-Christians have not had to fight for their freedom to worship here. What they appear to be fighting for is for Christianity to not be dominant. Humanly speaking, that is okay for it is what we all do when we are in a minority, we do whatever we can to not be seen or treated as the minority.
It may be that we are arriving at a time when Christianity is no longer the dominant religion in America and will take a back seat in society to other religions. I simply think that you and others should admit that your desire is not primarily religious freedom for all but the removal of Christianity from its dominant role in our culture. It seems evident that under the commonly desired changes Christianity would not thrive nearly so well as non-Christian religions have thrived under Christian prominence.
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Neil: Christianity does have a unique right to be expressed in our culture
Since when does any religion have rights, much less unique rights?
People may have rights; a religion, particularly anything as utterly indescribable as “Christianity” is not a cognizable entity under the law, except in a kind of convenient shorthand way.
Now if you want to make the argument that Christians should have rights that adherents to other faiths don’t somehow deserve, go ahead and make it.
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Xion at 56: cf: Obamacare, job-creators.
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Conan says,
No, Conan, that’s not my point. Either Jesus is Lord of all or He isn’t. If He is (and I’m saying that God has made it manifest that He is) then in both public and in private affairs, we have a moral responsibility to acknowledge Him. The reason we sound arrogant to you acting as if He is Lord, and you sound arrogant to us acting as if He isn’t, is that in each of our responses to the world we live in, we’re each challenging one another’s God.
Surely, Conan, even if you deny our God with every fiber of your being, surely you’re capable of thinking in a hypothetical. If God is who the Scriptures claim that He is, then there is no area of life in which He ought to be ignored. I find it really shocking that you can’t grasp that, even as a hypothetical.
I understand that, but no one has argued that a county commissioner’s meeting is an appropriate place for evangelism.
Right, because a person who publicly acknowledges God certainly wouldn’t be willing to fix potholes for pagans. Come on, Conan.
Well, apparently it wasn’t obvious to the country’s founders either, because opening government meetings with invocations to God has been the norm from the beginning, thanks to a precedent set by them.
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A #77, in a democracy the majority has the right to enforce their collective will. Fortunately, for non-Christians, the Christian majority has been abundantly gracious in allowing all people the freedom to exercise their religions as they choose.
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#80: No, Neil. Non-Christians get to exercise their religions as they choose because the Constitution guarantees that right. It is not because the “Christian majority” is all nice and gracious and endlessly generous to “allow” it.
And in our country, the majority does NOT get to enforce its “collective will” on minorities when it comes to civil rights. The Constitution guarantees that too.
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In that the Constitution was written by and lawfully sustained by continual majority votes of people with a Christian orientation, yes, the Christian majority has exercised its will.
Non-Christians are seeking to enforce their will by developing a voting majority. That is appropriately the way the system works. We all appeal to the Constitution to support our views. The Constitution itself enforces nothing. Constitutional laws are enforced by a combination of the leadership of duly elected and appointed representatives and a submissive citizenry.
Do you deny that you would prefer to have your views dominate in our country? Do you deny that you would prefer to have your views enforced in our country? These are silly questions. And yet you are critical of Christians who have those very same preferences.
Again it is the foundational Christian values of gracious and justly shared responsibility that has made our system work. Forsaking those values can result only in either varying degrees of tyranny or anarchy. We are at a place where either extreme is much too close.
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Do you deny that you would prefer to have your views dominate in our country?
Everybody who is politically engaged would like to have their views dominate. The difference between us is, my views don’t involve injecting my religious beliefs into meetings of governing bodies.
I do have religious beliefs, you know. I have a concept of God that is different from yours but very real and meaningful to me. I do not see any reason why I would want to compel you to hear me pray to my God, especially in a situation where praying to a God of any kind is not our reason for gathering.
You do want to compel others. And you still seem totally baffled why anyone might object.
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Neil: In that the Constitution was written by and lawfully sustained by continual majority votes of people with a Christian orientation, yes, the Christian majority has exercised its will.
That’s very different from what you were saying before.
The right to free exercise of religion is in the Constitution. If the majority of those who ratified the First Amendment were traditional Christians, then fine, take credit for that.
But what you said before was that “the Christian majority” has the right to impose its will on religious minorities, but is gracious enough to “allow” them to practice their non-Christian religions.
As if we’re supposed to humbly thank our Christian betters for their kindness in allowing us to worship as we choose. As if the Christian majority could change its mind next month and order us to stop assembling in our non-Christian religious communities.
I am not convinced you really understand how the country is supposed to work. And worse, it seems a large number of people share the same misconceptions.
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I do understand why anyone might want to object. I object when my views are overridden. I don’t like it when I don’t get my way. But I sincerely believe that my views are the best not only for my own welfare but for the welfare of those who disagree with me. Don’t you believe that I would be better off if I believed as you do? If you don’t your views are not very valuable to you.
I believe that there is a righteous and gracious God Who does govern in the affairs of men. I believe that to consciously depend on Him for every detail of our private and public lives is of ultimate wisdom and benefit. Why O why would I not want to inject those beliefs into every dealing with my fellow citizens. Having these convictions does not involve forcing anyone to adopt my beliefs and behaviors. I afford you the same privileges of injecting your views into the relationships of your life. When those views collide it is the community around which decides whose views will dominate. In our community (nation) those decisions are guided by our Constitution which happens to have been written and maintained by people with predominantly Christian values. And I am thankful beyond words that I live under those values rather than so many alternative ones in other nations of our world.
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“But what you said before was that “the Christian majority” has the right to impose its will on religious minorities, but is gracious enough to “allow” them to practice their non-Christian religions.”
“As if we’re supposed to humbly thank our Christian betters for their kindness in allowing us to worship as we choose. As if the Christian majority could change its mind next month and order us to stop assembling in our non-Christian religious communities.”
If this is what I communicated to you, I was wrong. I see no class system in our culture. You are every bit as valuable as I may be. In fact I see it as my obligation to consider your needs above my own. In fact, that Christ-like character is what I believe motivated our founders to state that all men are created equal. It also motivated them to tell us that our fundamental rights come from God.
I think I can understand that you hear this as egotistical and domineering. But can you understand that my desire (and I recognize that some professing Christians may not) is to be truly loving and just in the practice of my values?
Conan, thank you for this good conversation. I have appreciated it. I must go to bed now. I am sure we will continue in other discussions. I don’t plan on asking to have you muffled.
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Conan says,
Yes, and according to how you’ve explained your “concept of God,” your god is not a personal being to whom any fealty is due. According to this concept, you believe that religious beliefs are innately private and god, according to you, is certainly no Sovereign Lord of the heavens and the earth. Neither does your god bless and sustain HIs creation out of the innate goodness of His being. So, of course you wouldn’t consider it our corporate responsibility and privilege to express our gratitude and dependence upon Him for all of our blessings. Such a concept is completely foreign to your “concept of God.” But to the God we serve, all this is due Him and much more.
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If Conan had his way, any religion, or non-religion for that matter, would have its say — any by Christianity.
And that’s what I oppose.
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” . . let us . . appeal to truth and wisdom and divine guidance that the outcome might be a true blessing to all . . ”
Is there anyone who would object to that?
Yeah, me!
Not that I’d file a lawsuit, but I definitely would object to the part about truth and divine guidance.
Practical wisdom is deciding what is the better choice in each particular situation, not what is divine and true. Appeals to the Absolute belong in church. In affairs of politics and ethics, on the other hand, everything can be stated otherwise. There is no holy knowledge that will tell the town council whether to put up a sign that says “No Turns” or a sign that says “No Left Turn 7-9 or 4-6″ , or no sign at all.
XION’s words undermining the proper basis for political decisions in a democracy. Political choices result from persuasion and voting, not from oracles.
Unfortunately in these evil days, appealing to divine truth will influence Evangelicals to disbelieve their own lying eyes.
Instead of XION’s public appeal to God (a lovely thing in the last stanza of Sunday’s anthem), I’d appeal to common sense, experience, expert advice, and the good will of the townspeople. If you don’t believe in such things, you probably shouldn’t be at the meeting.
Whether or not one has a Constitutional right to talk about God at the town council, it’s at best quaint and at worse very bad.
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Scroop #89 Whether or not one has a Constitutional right to talk about God at the town council, it’s at best quaint and at worse very bad.
Then you may continue to attempt to elect someone who doesn’t, and I will continue to attempt to elect someone who does. Ain’t freedom grand. :–)
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Scroopy and Conan DENY our history.
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They’re trying their best to create a new history for us. It’s not working.
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D, what bugs me is their rewritten history might be accurate in a 10-years-from-now perspective.
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Scroopy and Conan DENY our history.
Not at all. We just don’t live in the past like you want to.
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Ree #87: And what is it you think gives you the right to compel others to share your expressions of fealty as the price of admission to take part in the secular government?
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#89 Scroop “Appeals to the Absolute belong in church.”
In Scroop’s world only the philosophy of Relativism is allowed. Any appeals to Absolutes are deemed illegal.
The list of illegal things in Scroop’s world is a long one, such as integers, mathematics, superlatives, dictionaries, idealism, hope, love, wisdom and so on.
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Actually Mr. Woodlief, I have pondered on the very same stuff.
Nothing has changed about how people with a non-Christian worldview interpret articles on Worldmag. Not surprised.
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Not at all. We just don’t live in the past like you want to.
Exactly, CONANTHELIBRARIAN.
In our past, city councils that modeled themselves on the Heavenly City, obeying the the divine truth that God gave them, hanged people who dissented from that truth — Mary Dyer, for example.
Following folks with amnesia will doom us to repeat the past, I’m afraid.
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In Scroop’s world only the philosophy of Relativism is allowed.
Relativism in questions of politics and ethics, yes; in matters of religion, no.
That’s not my idea, it’s Aristotle’s; and it’s not my world, it’s ours. Nobody spins politics and ethics better than an Evangelical, even while they claim to invoke God’s absolutes.
I put it down to laziness. Political rhetoric is hard work. It requires persuasion and a willingness to allow oneself to be persuaded. Evangelicals would rather compel people with assertions of theology. Their version of fascism comes under the conquering sign of Constantine. Evangelical claims to divine truth corrupt democracy by employing a religious test. They lead us in the paths of compulsion and sectarian conflict.
Don’t take my word . . . it’s written in the past.
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The Oppressive Christian Community?
There once was a community of ten people who lived by a beautiful lake. Six of the people called themselves “Christians”. Of the other four, one boldly identified himself as an “Atheist”; one was a practicing “Muslim”; and the other two were proud “Homosexuals.” The had lived together for more than two-hundred years in surprising harmony. O, there were the typical squabbles and and occasional fisticuffs but they each seemed to thrive quite well.
They usually settled their differences with votes. They had a Community Council of three people to which they brought their complaints and depended upon to guide their official relations. They chose the Council from among the ten people and since there were more Christians they usually dominated the Council. This imbalance meant that the non-Christians were often outvoted in the official affairs of the community. But it frequently happened that the Christians didn’t agree on various issues and sometime sided with the Atheist, the Homosexuals, or the Muslim depending on the nature of the issue. As a minority the Atheist often expressed his dismay at what he felt was the constant appeal to unprovable absolutes. The Muslim felt left out because he only got to pray at official meetings of the counsel one-tenth of the time. When it was the Atheist’s turn to pray he rarely took the opportunity because he usually timed he arrival at the meeting so as to not be forced to participate in the foolishness. The Homosexuals had only recently gathered the courage to openly declare their special difference because the Christians refused to accept their behavior as normal. It is true that not everyone always got their way and it was more difficult for the non-Christians to be as comfortable as the Christians appeared to be.
Making life more difficult for the four non-Christians, a couple of the Christians were too often not Christ-like in their criticisms of the non-Christians. Enduring this mistreatment and the natural desire to have their views more influential the non-Christians decided to look around for other living arrangements. They knew about a village across the lake where the Muslims were dominant so they looked into living there. The homosexuals decided not to move there since their compatriots in that community were usually executed for their behaviors. The Atheist wasn’t real anxious to move there because the non-Muslims were pressured with all manner of threats to become Muslims. Of course the Muslim thought more seriously about moving there but decided against the move because of the general life prosperity and real freedoms to be Muslim in their Christian dominated home.
There were other communities around the lake that had different balances of influence but for some reason the Atheist, the Muslim, and the Homosexuals much preferred to live in the community dominated by Christian values. They chose instead to stay at home and fight to turn the tables on the Christians. They thought that somehow all the good things their community enjoyed was in spite of the Christians rather than because of them. Time will tell if the overturning of the Christian values will bless or curse the communities around the lake.
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Ha. Scroop, you’re so melodramatic. The paths of compulsion and conflict are mostly leftist inspired revolts, and they’re written waaaay back in the past…. of last week’s newspapers.
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Neil: You should have ended the story at the point where the atheist, homosexuals and Muslim are considering the other communities and then choosing to stay put.
Then you could add: “The moral of the story: Non-Christians should suck it up and stay quiet when they have to hear Christian prayers at their council meetings, because it would be even worse for them somewhere else.”
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Actually, Conan, that was neither the moral of nor the ending of the story. It actually ended with the non-Christians working at turning the tables on the Christians and the Christians, rather than forcing the Atheists Muslims and Homosexuals to conform or be killed, simply continuing to work our centuries old (and difficult) system of allowing the will of the people to be done.
Yes, you have three choices. Stay and fight to oppress those who you believe have oppressed you; Stay and welcome the freedoms the minorities in our society enjoy; Leave and find a place more to your liking.
The fourth alternative preferred by many is for Christians to say they don’t really believe what they have always believed and now want to humbly turn over the culture to the more wise and tolerant among us. You want us to admit that the worst representations of Christianity are the most accurate.
You said you are not convinced that I understand how this country is supposed to work. There is often a difference between how things are supposed to work and how they actually are working. It is most effective to understand both.
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For myself, most often when something is done around me that is offensive to me I do in fact suck it up and stay quiet realizing that it could be much worse elsewhere. And because it is not natural for me I pray for God’s help to graciously suck it up and to truly care about the present and eternal life of the person or persons offending me.
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Conan,
No has been compelled to participate in prayer since the founding of our nation, and that’s certainly not what I’m advocating.
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Freedom of speech and religion make it likely that you folks who don’t want to hear about a person’s religious convictions will be forced, to a point, to listen to them or leave the room. Sorry, that is what is is like to live in a free country. If you non-religious people, or those who just want your practical business conducted without being bothered by those who seek divine assistance do not like it I am sorry, really. I myself don’t look forward to listening to some people’s opinions on many subjects, but I believe in the freedom to allow it. Yes at ANY place and at ANYtime those people want to speak including at Gov’t events. Let our system of “Social Control” take care of that. Vote them out, argue with them, but don’t muzzle them.
It is called having a open & tolerant government.
Who is against that?
The thought police are!
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Neil: Yes, you have three choices. Stay and fight to oppress those who you believe have oppressed you; Stay and welcome the freedoms the minorities in our society enjoy; Leave and find a place more to your liking.
The fourth alternative preferred by many is for Christians to say they don’t really believe what they have always believed and now want to humbly turn over the culture to the more wise and tolerant among us. You want us to admit that the worst representations of Christianity are the most accurate.
Dude. Wow.
All I have said is, let the county commission meeting be for the work of governing and open it without a sectarian prayer, for the sake of upholding the freedom of religion of those who are not part of the sect.
That’s all.
You are reading an awful lot of meaning into my words that I never put there and never would.
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Ree: No has been compelled to participate in prayer since the founding of our nation, and that’s certainly not what I’m advocating.
Of course you are. The issue here is whether it is appropriate to open the meeting of a secular governing body with a Christian prayer.
There is more at stake than the bogus question of whether it “offends” people. The real concern is that it implies that the governing body endorses Christianity and, therefore, holds other religions in lower regard.
Which is a problem when the government is supposed to serve all citizens equally.
Your argument is that it’s appropriate and even preferable to open the meeting with a Christian prayer. All others are expected to sit quietly and not object — in other words, to participate outwardly, if not inwardly.
My argument is, let the government govern and leave religion to the consciences of individuals who make their own choices and form their own beliefs.
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There’s no neutrality, Conan. The government, by what it does, and what it doesn’t do, endorses something as ultimately true. This is unavoidable, and this is the point I’ve been making. The idea that all religions are equally valid is as much of a religious tenet as is the idea that the triune God has made Himself manifest.
But it’s no tenet of Christianity that non-Christians under a Christianized government be treated as dhimmis. That’s an unjustified leap.
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Ree: There’s no neutrality, Conan. The government, by what it does, and what it doesn’t do, endorses something as ultimately true. This is unavoidable, and this is the point I’ve been making.
Yes, I know. And you’re still wrong.
Whether you like it or not — and I understand you don’t — in our country, religious beliefs are a matter of individual conscience. The government cannot, Constitutionally, favor one over the others.
All you’re arguing is for the right of Christianity to be held superior BY THE SECULAR GOVERNMENT, which really has no place taking a side. Dress it up however you like, that’s what it boils down to.
I’m not asking for the government to issue some kind of declaration that “all religions are equally valid.” I’m asking that we be content to let them govern and leave it at that.
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“Dude, Wow.”
Conan, I am undoubtedly guilty of exaggerating your comments. In this conversation you have indeed been quite pointed. But I think in this instance you are really not seeing the implications of your wish for government to not consider any religion superior. Does not our prohibition of honor-killings, sharia law, etc., involve declaring that one religion is superior to another. With Ree, I don’t see how government can be religiously neutral and really be effective in governing a diverse people. Yes, it is certainly possible for a city council to function without an official prayer. But is it possible for the council to function effectively without there being some general consensus about and even submission to some foundational religious values. Are not you (certainly others are) asking that government be absolutely religion neutral? Is that any more possible than having a governing body be legal system neutral, currency neutral, etc.? Some things are so fundamental that effective cooperation requires that they be given preference. Otherwise, either tyranny or chaos seem the only real alternatives.
Is it not possible that the inclusion of a prayer at the beginning of a city council is a wise recognition our generally common commitment to the spiritual values of those who founded our great country?
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Neil,
The workings of our government are structured by our Constitution, the constitutions of the individual states, city and county charters, etc., and by the laws and ordinances passed within those frameworks.
Therefore: Does not our prohibition of honor-killings, sharia law, etc., involve declaring that one religion is superior to another.
No, it doesn’t. It declares that the United States has its own legal system and will not accept the imposition of another one from outside. Sharia law would not pass Constitutional muster because it’s the substitution of another set of laws for our own. We can hold that without having to declare a religion superior.
(For the record, and I should not have to say it but in this crowd I probably do, I find Sharia law barbaric and believe it has no place in any civilized culture.)
However, you have picked a deliberately egregious example. Even if I did find it necessary to agree that the exclusion of Sharia requires a statement about religion, you’ve not made any case for why the Christian prayer and not the Druid ritual or the Buddhist meditation should open the county commission meeting. Those religions do not include “honor killings” or other barbarisms, and so appealing to moral outrage won’t get you anywhere there.
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Allowing someone to speak is not endorsing them. We must not have Gov’t choosing the best religions, only which groups are “actual” religions. Then give their representatives their 2 minutes, and let the chips fall where they may.
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Do you see no Christian religious basis for the American legal system? It think that is the case for why Christian prayer and not Druid or Buddhist values should open county commission meetings.
I do find your moral outrage interesting. Even you then find some religious values as beneath others. On what basis, if not religious values, could a government prohibit unacceptable behaviors?
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Neil said,
Of course, Conan does have a standard by which he judges what’s acceptable and what isn’t. His problem is that he’ll just keep digging in his heels and denying that the standard is based on any particular religion/worldview. For example, apparently that which is barbaric is not acceptable, although he’ll continue to fail to acknowledge that he’s using his own arbitrary worldview standard to judge the Barbarians and those who act like them.
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Neil: I do find your moral outrage interesting. Even you then find some religious values as beneath others. On what basis, if not religious values, could a government prohibit unacceptable behaviors?
Of course I do. I have religious values. And I have opinions about others’ religious values.
What I don’t do is insist that my values be taken up and specifically promoted by the government. The secular laws exist to govern the orderly conduct of a free society, not to tell people what to believe.
Do you see no Christian religious basis for the American legal system? It think that is the case for why Christian prayer and not Druid or Buddhist values should open county commission meetings.
There’s nothing specifically Christian about our legal system. There are legal principles you can find reflected in the Bible — and also in the Code of Hammurabi, and the Koran, and Eastern religious texts. There are also principles in those writings that are not in our legal system, and things in our legal system that aren’t in the religious texts.
We draw most directly from English Common Law, and then from a variety of other sources, all undergirded by the principles of the Enlightenment.
And yes, Christianity has had a major role in the shaping of our nation. Nobody who pays attention to history could deny that. At the same time, though, we are a pluralistic nation with a Constitutionally-enshrined devotion to freedom of conscience in matters of faith. An appeal to history may make an argument for why a Christian prayer rather than a Jewish or Hindu, or Druid or Buddhist one … but you’ve still not made a persuasive case, to me, as to why a meeting of the secular government needs any religious opening at all.
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Yes, but the Constitution doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s grounded in a Christian worldview. Without that foundation, it can mean anything one wants it to mean. And if that’s the case, then it’s dishonest to appeal to it as the standard. Do you really think that the Founding Fathers were such idiots that they wouldn’t have been able to see a discrepancy between nine colonies having official religions and the secular interpretation of the First Amendment? And if we’re really to hold them in such low esteem, then why even pretend to have any respect for the form of government they founded and the constitution they drafted?
I really believe that those on the left give lip service to the Constitution only because they know they’ll be marginalized and ignored by too many voters if they’re honest about their thoughts about it.
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On what basis, if not religious values, could a government prohibit unacceptable behaviors?
We draw from religious values held in common. Most people of any religions or none will agree that the law should bar things such as murder, theft, assault, arson, vandalism, rape, etc. You need not invoke a specific religion to justify outlawing those things, because no one is going to seriously object.
But what about consuming alcohol? Sex outside of wedlock? Eating non-kosher food? These are things that some religious traditions forbid and others don’t, and non-religious people have no obligation to be bound by someone else’s religious beliefs regarding them. How far do you go in invoking your religion to justify passing laws that affect people who don’t share it? How would you feel if the law forbade you to do something that your religion would allow and your desire would be to do, but somebody else’s beliefs say ‘no.’
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Aw shucks, I’d just feel all kinda hurt.
The issue, Conan, isn’t about protecting everyone’s delicate feelings. The issue is what is true. Although you won’t admit it, I believe that, ultimately, you really know that.
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No Ree, the issue (Neil specifically asked about laws, so this now goes beyond the opening of meetings with a prayer) is why should we make laws that require everyone to conform to beliefs held only by some?
It’s not about “delicate feelings,” it’s about freedom of conscience.
Now, that does apply just to laws. I have mostly confined myself on this particular thread to talking about the opening of a government meeting with prayer.
You make the mistake of confusing what you believe with what is obviously true, and so you have no problem with saying everyone should take part in it. From where I stand, what you believe is not at all obviously true, and so I do have a problem with requiring conformity.
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“How far do you go in invoking your religion to justify passing laws that affect people who don’t share it?”
Excellent question!
I think you go as far as the will of the people (vote and representative government) decide. That has been the ebb and flow of religious influence in our country.
“You need not invoke a specific religion to justify outlawing those things,…” If we desire to invoke “religious values held in common” (and I agree that we do desire such) how do we do that without offending those who claim no religious basis for their values and who in fact value a total absence of religion in civil life?
I agree that proselytizing through prayer is inappropriate in civic prayers. I can understand why people can be offended by and oppose the prayers of people of different religious beliefs. What I cannot understand is the professed right of a minority to demand that the majority defer to the value views of the minority. This is the very thing that the minority is claiming that the majority is doing.
Christians in Iran do so at the risk of death. Non-Christians in America do so with the blessing of our Constitutions. Non-Christians in fact have been effective in overriding a variety of Christian values and Christians (discounting phony ones) have responded with submission rather than with violence.
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Neil: “You need not invoke a specific religion to justify outlawing those things,…” If we desire to invoke “religious values held in common” (and I agree that we do desire such) how do we do that without offending those who claim no religious basis for their values and who in fact value a total absence of religion in civil life?
Why do you insist on it? We don’t have to invoke religion at all to justify laws against things that are inherently destructive to a functional society. Even atheists can agree with that.
And stop getting hung up on “offending.” It’s not about offense — you trivialize my entire argument into a “protect the delicate feelings” (as Ree put it). That’s not it at all.
I agree that proselytizing through prayer is inappropriate in civic prayers. I can understand why people can be offended by and oppose the prayers of people of different religious beliefs. What I cannot understand is the professed right of a minority to demand that the majority defer to the value views of the minority. This is the very thing that the minority is claiming that the majority is doing.
Have you heard the phrase from de Tocqueville about “the tyranny of the majority?”
We guarantee certain rights to everyone under our Constitution. These rights are not subject to majority whim. The majority cannot vote, for example, to deprive a minority group of their freedom of speech, or their right to a trial.
Freedom of religion is the same way. For the Christian majority to take the position that ‘we are the majority and therefore, everyone else has to respectfully bow their heads while we pray if they want to attend a county commission meeting,’ is to deny the right of those others to not have to be coerced into another religion’s religious observance.
As a UU, I see value in many faith traditions and also in humanism. I am religious and respect others who are religious. It is precisely because I DO respect religion that I’m saddened whenever one faction tries to use it as a club against others — which is really what the argument that YOUR religion should be the one the secular government uses to open its meetings is.
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I do understand what you are saying. The fact is however that the majority can in fact vote to deprive a minority of their freedoms. But, for some reason (could it be the Biblical values of the Christian majority?) our Constitution was designed and voters have supported the civil practice of not overriding many rights of minorities. You are correct that some professing Christians would use their majority status as a club. I believe, however, that in general they have used it as a wise guide and indeed a Constitutional rudder for the betterment of our American culture.
I might ask as well why would non-Christians use their views as a club against Christians? The answer to the dilemma is to let the American system of voting to determine the will of the people decide. In each community it is the people who fundamentally decide how their civic councils are begun. I suppose that you and I are simply seeking to explain why we vote the way we do and to persuade the other to vote our way. It is a philosophical and yes a religious war, that our founding fathers made it possible to fight without physical violence.
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So… Should Christians, and other religious representatives, be allowed to speak (pray) to open gov’t meetings if they petition to and do so in an orderly and civilized manner?
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Neil: The answer to the dilemma is to let the American system of voting to determine the will of the people decide. In each community it is the people who fundamentally decide how their civic councils are begun.
No, because the majority will always prevail and that will undermine the right of the minority to make their own choices about faith.
The answer to the dilemma is to simply open the meeting of the civic council with the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting and go on from there, without invoking anyone’s god. That allows every person in the room to believe that they believe, and requires no one to observe someone else’s belief.
If the Jewish council member is curious about Christianity, he can go visit his Christian friend’s church on any Sunday, or meet in one of their homes for a conversation over dinner anytime. If the Jewish council member is not interested in Christianity, he can go to represent his constituents on the council without having to bow to the Christian Trinity while his own belief about God is ignored.
I’m frankly kind of amazed that this is even objectionable.
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Bible believing Christians believe at the core of their being that God is intimately caring and involved in all the affairs of men. It is not a casual formality to acknowledge that belief and declare publicly our dependence upon Him for our wisdom and life. I suppose it has and could happen that a Christian prays condemnation on non-Christians. But I am certain that the great majority of civic prayers are asking God for His guidance and blessing and thanksgiving for His providence in doing so.
I’m frankly kind of amazed that this is even objectionable. Particularly that is is so opposed by people who believe their Gods are much less actively involved in the daily affairs of men.
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#120 Conan “It’s not about “delicate feelings,” it’s about freedom of conscience.”
You keep repeating this same theme Conan, that FREEDOM of speech means preventing people from speaking.
Please explain how FREEDOM of conscience is to NOT allow people to express matters conscience in public venues?
It is called doublethink: “To know is to not know. To be free is to not be free.”
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Neil: Bible believing Christians believe at the core of their being that God is intimately caring and involved in all the affairs of men. It is not a casual formality to acknowledge that belief and declare publicly our dependence upon Him for our wisdom and life.
Yes, I know. And so? That is what you believe. It is not what all of us believe. Many Americans don’t believe that. Even many of the Americans who do believe that don’t agree that a government meeting is the proper occasion to express it.
Why do you think that what you believe has a special privilege to be expressed at a government meeting when what someone else believes does not? Your patronizing attitude comes across as just arrogant. You think that because you believe this, it is therefore true, but if I believe something different, I can shut up and bow my head while you pray.
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Xion: It’s been explained dozens of times, and I’m bored with your continuing to pretend to not get it.
How about we turn the tables. You explain how FREEDOM of conscience is to FORCE other people to bow respectfully while you express your beliefs.
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“The problem comes when elected officials who are not supposed to play favorites in their work for their constituents decide to honor one religion and ignore all others in their meetings.”
This “problem” is based on the premise that engaging in a Christian prayer in a public meeting can logically be connected to playing favorites for Christians, or against non-Christians.
However, no such logical connection exists. It’s arguable that such a connection *could* arise in a given case, but it is not a strong enough logical connection to restrict the freedom of the public official to pray *even in a public meeting.*
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The majority in EVERY avenue of life is afforded both special privileges and special responsibilities. For followers of Christ the privilege is not in special treatment or a pomp of wielding the gavel, but the privilege of fulfilling the responsibility to serve as Christ to our community. We often do not do it as well as we should but I believe that America and the World has been blessed by followers of Christ beyond our comprehension. Praying for our community is one of our highest privileges and greatest expressions of our love for our fellow citizens. I am truly sorry you can not see this motive in us. I am sure that some of the fault is ours for the times we have been uncaring. But I am confident that some of the fault is yours for your simple unwillingness to see.
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“How about we turn the tables. You explain how FREEDOM of conscience is to FORCE other people to bow respectfully while you express your beliefs. ”
In a public meeting, all attendees are expected to remain quietly respectful while others are speaking. There is the potential for legal sanctions if this is violated too egregiously.
You are suggesting that some kind of terrible burden is placed upon people to do this when the speaker is saying, “Heavenly Father, we….in Jesus name, Amen” that does not exist when the speaker is enunciating some traffic light policy that the listener finds *equally* objectionable.
The difference in civil rights burden between remaining quietly respectful during a prayer one does not believe in, and remaining quietly respectful during the propounding of objectionable policies entirely eludes me, and certainly has no obvious explication within the U.S. Constitution.
Only the entirely unfounded premise that public expressions of faith by public officials are inextricably linked to religious discrimination by those officials could account for the necessity of making this distinction so strongly and so implicitly. Even the idea that a praying official is significantly more likely to engage in such discrimination has yet to be established. At least, YOU haven’t established it, you’ve just implied it and made it the basis for your whole argument.
IOW, if the public official discriminates against people on religious grounds, sue him or throw him out of office, regardless of whether he prays. But the necessity for prior restraint on his freedom of religious expression *even at the public meeting* isn’t established. The fact that there *can* be limits on public religious expression doesn’t mean that you’ve shown any reason why there *should* be in this case, and that such limits in this case would fall within a reasonable interpretation of the meaning and purpose of the First Amendment.
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#129 Conan “Xion: It’s been explained dozens of times, and I’m bored with your continuing to pretend to not get it.
I understand perfectly what you are saying, but you have never answered the question.
How about we turn the tables. You explain how FREEDOM of conscience is to FORCE other people to bow respectfully while you express your beliefs.”
This is how you answer every time, with another question. No one is FORCED to do anything except to possibly be slightly tolerant of others, which you refuse to do.
Freedom of conscience means expressing matters of conscience and accepting the consequences. For you it means the freedom to never hear anything you might object to.
That isn’t freedom at all. That is the imposing of your beliefs on others.
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So this is the conclusion…..(Pentamom is correct).
The private prayers, publicly spoken, on gov’t property are right and good and constitutional.
Let freedom ring!
Let them pray!
Any other conclusion is nonsense!
Move on!
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Neil: Praying for our community is one of our highest privileges and greatest expressions of our love for our fellow citizens. I am truly sorry you can not see this motive in us. I am sure that some of the fault is ours for the times we have been uncaring. But I am confident that some of the fault is yours for your simple unwillingness to see.
It’s not a matter of motive, and I’m not assuming a bad motive.
It’s the sense of entitlement that you somehow have the right to rope others into your prayer who don’t share your beliefs, and the subtle paternalism you express in the assumption that you (Christians) know what’s best for everyone.
If you want pray for your community, no one will object if you do it in your church or in your home or even in the public park, with a gathered body of like-minded people who willingly come to participate.
Making it the price of admission for anyone who wants to come to a town hall meeting and make a statement about the garbage pickup schedule is wrong.
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Pentamom, Xion and others … well I hope you remember you said these eloquent things about tolerance and respect when a Muslim becomes president of your county commission and opens the meetings with prayers to Allah.
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Conan, with all due respect, I think you misunderstand at least my thinking and perhaps the thinking of most followers of Jesus. I have no interest in roping others in to beliefs they do not share. Praying for our community is a privilege of serving them by asking God to guide, protect, bless us together.
Regarding paternalism… Do you not believe what you believe strongly enough that you believe it would be best for me if I believed as you do? In fact is that not what you are doing in your conversations here? How absurd would it be to say to someone: “I believe x, but I think it would be better for you to believe y.” That might be okay with breakfast cereal but when it comes the the fundamentals of life, if you don’t believe your views are the most correct then I would suggest you better look around for some more convincing beliefs.
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I think the idea of “paternalism” may be the key to all of this. I can certainly understand the objection because I know I do not like it when someone tells me that they know better than I do about how I should live. And it probably blinds me to thinking clearly about what they are asking me to do. And, there are many instances when people try to tell me what to do and they really are mistaken in their thinking.
People do not seem to mind the idea that God is a big fluffy nice thing that simply wants to help us be, do and get what we want. We don’t mind if He gives suggestions on possible ways that might improve our lives. I don’t think there is much objection to prayers to a god that sort of morphs into whatever we want him to be.
The problem with the God of the Bible is that He actually claims to have designed and in fact be THE STANDARD by which all else is compared. He claims to be the ultimate paternal being in the universe. Jesus put it this way: “I Am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” He removes all other options for Life, for Truth, and our human nature bristles.
I do not believe that the primary objection to public prayers in a Government venue is to just the idea of praying. I believe the objection is to Christian prayers to a God to whom we are actually accountable in every dimension of our lives. People do not object to talking into the sky, they object to us talking to Someone Who claims to have the right to require our submission.
Philosophical arguments are not sufficient to change our hearts and minds. That is something only a Supreme God can do. And He only does it to hearts that are open to submissive change. (not my will, but Yours be done.) He will not always strive with us. We may get our growing national wish that He leave us alone. I pray not.
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I have no interest in roping others in to beliefs they do not share. Praying for our community is a privilege of serving them by asking God to guide, protect, bless us together.
I get tha, but why is it so important that it be the prerequisite for them getting into the county commission meeting? Why can’t you pray for your community with a gathering of people who share your beliefs in the public park on Saturday? Why tie participation in the secular government to hearing your prayer to your God? If you want to be heard on the dog license fees, you have to hear a prayer to Neil’s trinitarian God first.
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Conan, it is absurd to suggest that Christians view their prayer at the beginning of a city council meeting as the price of admission.
That suggestion is a smokescreen for more basic objections.
Evidently there are city councils all around the country where most of the people actually want to declare their desire for God’s guidance at their meetings. And there are some some who have chosen to not pray. In each and every instance the community and the council are free to decide what they want to do. There is no Federal or state requirement that every government meeting be opened with a Fundamentalist, Bible Believing, Sectarian, anti-non-Christian, Bible toting Preacher prayer to their Trinitarian God before any business can be conducted.
You and others seem to believe that if there is not (and you suspect that there might be one at least implied) there should be a law clearly prohibiting any government sanctioned event beginning with any reference to any deity or metaphysical ideas to which anyone might disagree; even if the majority of the people present genuinely desire to do so. That doesn’t sound very American to me, does it to you?
I can guarantee you that there are many many many more Christian people praying for our city state and national leaders than are heard behind the podium at the official council meetings. That ought to concern you far more than the few official prayers to which you so strongly object.
As a matter of fact I would be willing to bet that just as a result of your comments on WMB there are many Followers of Jesus praying for you. Yes, we believe our views are True. But it is not a confidence in our ability as thinkers but our confidence in the One Who has proven Himself True in delivering us (a process – we are far from perfect) from our guilt, fear, anger, addiction, loneliness and pride, all because we simply take the moment by moment step of submitting to His gracious and powerful rule over our lives.
Though we would if it were possible to effectively do so, none of us want to force any of this on you or anyone else. But we do believe it so very completely that we will continue to share it as long as God gives us opportunity to do so.
President Obama urged the nation to “eat our peas.” Evidently there are times in our life when it is appropriate to urge people to do things they do not like doing. Presenting the claims of Jesus Christ to a hurting world is one of those things.
I am truly sorry that you do not like our peas. If you complain loud enough and long enough we will honor your wishes and leave you alone and let the results be what they may. I truly hope you can see just a sliver of possibility that this is not a God of paternalism but of Love.
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Neil: Conan, it is absurd to suggest that Christians view their prayer at the beginning of a city council meeting as the price of admission.
I’m sure they don’t. They see it as just giving honor to the God who sustains us. It’s all the rest of us are troubled. Those of us who don’t share your view of God and don’t believe we should have to give respect to your prayers in order to take part in our government.
And you continue to conflate “don’t do it at the secular government meeting” with “don’t do it at all.” Even when I’ve explicitly said so, you continue to characterize my argument as being about stifling your free expression.
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It seems to me that your are in fact not required to, nor are you, giving respect (attentive regard) to our prayers and yet you do in fact participate fully in our government.
I don’t believe I have suggested you are wanting to deny our praying “at all.” But, I have said that you are wanting to deny everyone the opportunity to officially pray at secular government meetings even if the majority of those present desire to have that privilege. What is that if it is not stifling free expression?
It is clear that we are not going to soon change each others minds with regard to prayer at secular government meetings.
As I have said, I believe that the fundamental objections to Christian prayers is not the brief talk to a deity, but the unique nature of the Deity to Whom Christians pray. Our human nature screams “I want to do life my way.” Christians pray to a God who says that our way leads to death and only submission to God leads to Life. I can understand why that claim is objectionable.
We will stop officially praying out loud at government meetings if and when the community prohibits us. We have in fact graciously done so in many places. That is the way our civil society works.
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Just out of curiosity, should the pledge of allegiance be prohibited at government meetings because some people are offended by both the flag and the pledge? Are people being forced to respect the flag and the pledge in order to take part in our government?
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By the way, I think that if I were on a city council and the opening prayer became a repeated divisive issue with the council and the community, I would vote to cancel it. I would publicly invite anyone who wanted to pray together at another time and place to do so. On the other hand, if there were simply a relatively few individuals who made it a repeated issue that was not of concern to the great majority of the council and the community, I would prohibit the minority from repeated disruptions of the council meetings.
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I would *vote to* prohibit… I would not consider it my unilateral responsibility.
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As for your argument that it’s the nature of the God being prayed to, you’re mistaken. I don’t favor any kind of religious expression as part of a government function. Christian, Jewish, pagan, Hindu, what have you. And I don’t oppose any kind of religious expression that private individuals want to engage in anywhere but a government function.
If I were objecting to the God you pray to, I would be trying to keep your prayers confined to your church and your home; but I am not. You can stand on the street outside the county commission meeting and pray in unity with anyone who wants to join you and I won’t object a bit.
When you move it onto the official meeting agenda, though, then you’re essentially having the government give its stamp of approval to one set of religious beliefs over others.
And that is the start and finish of what I object to.
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Just out of curiosity, should the pledge of allegiance be prohibited at government meetings because some people are offended by both the flag and the pledge?
Again, you mistakenly think that being “offended” is the problem here. It isn’t, never was.
Are people being forced to respect the flag and the pledge in order to take part in our government?
Possibly, but it’s much less problematic. I don’t want the civil government endorsing a specific religion, but they should endorse America.
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We know, of course that both of our legislative chambers employ chaplains who open each session with prayers and provide counseling for members who seek it. The House often has a guest chaplain for the opening prayer so that various denominations are represented. Sunday church services were okay with the founders early on and I think Congress ok’d the printing of Bibles.
Our country was formed in the context of Christian culture and theology. That is why we enjoy our freedoms instead of Sharia Law or native American tribalism.
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Does the phrase “endowed by their creator…” give the governments stamp of approval to one set of religious beliefs over another?
The examples of our governments “stamp of approval” on Biblical Christian beliefs are too numerous to list. Yet it is from that very base we have each been given the freedom to believe whatever we wish. How can we endorse America without endorsing this religious heritage.
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“Pentamom, Xion and others … well I hope you remember you said these eloquent things about tolerance and respect when a Muslim becomes president of your county commission and opens the meetings with prayers to Allah. ”
I think you must have missed it up above when I responded to your Wiccan example by saying I’d be unhappy about such blasphemy occurring and I’d use the power of citizen influence to try to persuade the public official to stop….but I don’t think it’s unconstitutional or illegal. That’s the whole point — the fact that I don’t like, even HATE something doesn’t add up to it being an imposition upon my rights.
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“to share your expressions of fealty as the price of admission to take part in the secular government?”
Who’s compelling anyone to share an expression of fealty to anything? No one’s being compelled to PRAY, just to maintain *the exact same appropriate public demeanor* during the prayer that he’s required to maintain two seconds before and two seconds after — and since prayer doesn’t involve poking people in the stomach I don’t see why this is a burden. You’ve evaded my question — what actual quality makes sitting quietly during a public meeting when someone says “Jesus and bananas are purple” different from sitting quietly when someone simply says “bananas are purple”?
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I was employed in County government for 11 years. The meetings did not open with prayer. We would, however, have events where we would invite a priest or minister to offer a prayer. On one such occasion which was to honor a commissioner (who was dying of cancer) and the dedication of wolf and crane statues; the minister was from the local Presbyterian Church – when he opened his prayer in the name of the wolf and crane I opened my eyes and noticed others who had as well. I did not file a lawsuit.
btw – Great dialogue – Neil, I didn’t know that you had it in ya!
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Yes, let me add to Yooper’s comment .. Neil, you’ve defended your side with eloquence, thoughtfulness and gentle spirit. I’m not persuaded to agree with you, but it’s been one of the most rewarding and civil debates I’ve had here.
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Thank you Conan, and Yooper. I have appreciated the courtesy of your challenging thoughts as well. It can happen.
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Conan said: “it’s been one of the most rewarding and civil debates I’ve had here”
Well…If you can call it “Civil” to advocate denying people their Civil Rights as Conan does!
But, he is willing to allow people to pray in certain places of his choosing, like in their homes, churches and on street corners.
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Ernie: Neil and I kept it civil partly because we were not making absurd accusations about each other’s motivations. You could take a lesson from him.
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I was recently challenged to remember that we never meet worthless people. The Bible certainly teaches that as the crown of God’s creation human beings are very special indeed. So much so that when we blew it beyond fixing ourselves, God paid the highest possible price for our rescue. That supreme value is reflected in our precious American foundation that “All men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.”
I have never had a positive impact on someone I treated with disrespect. And I find it very difficult to accurately hear someone who is disrespecting me.
Yes, Jesus reached a point in His relationship with the Scribes and Pharisees that he called them blind hypocrites. But that response came from One who knew far more about the whole life and heart of the ones He was speaking to than we know about each other.
I guess I am saying that I tend to respond to salespersons who make me feel like they actually care about me. This internet is a place where it is extremely easy, natural even, to focus on ourselves and what we want to say while actually ignoring the real people we are claiming we want to communicate with. At least that is my tendency.
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The economy is smoldering, Obama’s approval rating is at its lowest level and 73% of Americans say America is on the wrong track.
So what does Obama do? He praises Allah and goes on vacation. The good news is that his approval rating among Muslims is at an all time high.
Everybody fine with this? Good, just checking …
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Conan says,
The founding fathers themselves premised our government on “self-evident truths” about our relationship to our Creator. Of course, you and lots of others today deny the self-evident nature of a Creator and divine lawgiver, but you claim other truths as self-evident (such as the essential justice and goodness of “gay marriage” for example, the equality of roles for men and women, etc.) that are anything but so to Christians. So you’ll get no traction in dismissing our claims about the nature of what’s self-evident just because you and others “don’t see it.” Both you and I believe that the other is in some form of self-denial about the nature of reality and what’s manifestly true. In any case, both you and I believe that our society should be structured around our respective ideas about truth. But it so happens that my ideas are far more in comformity with those of our Fathers and the founding documents they constructed.
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Ree: Of course, you and lots of others today deny the self-evident nature of a Creator and divine lawgiver, but you claim other truths as self-evident (such as the essential justice and goodness of “gay marriage” for example, the equality of roles for men and women, etc.) that are anything but so to Christians.
The difference, Ree, is that I don’t insist everyone attending a meeting of a government body must bow their heads while I pray and express the beliefs I think are true, and don’t believe I have some privilege or right to do so.
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Conan…Now wait a minute…You said that I am “making absurd accusations about each other’s motivations.”
Did you not say many times that people should not, or do not, have the right to open a gov,t meeting with prayer? You want to take that right from them, or deny that they ever had such a right? We do have that right. Think again.
You may write in a civil manner, but what you advocate is incivility.
Can’t you see that you are promoting censorship of thought and religion and a police state? You have posted it many times here that you want to deny a persons’s right to speak about their religious beliefs at gov’t meetings, and yes, while others who may disagree are present (if they choose to stay).
Have I misunderstood your viewpoint?
If so, please explain.
(BTW: I did not address your possible motives).
What are your motives?
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Conan said,
Of course you don’t, but what’s the virtue in you not trying to hold society to a standard you don’t hold? Instead, you want to hold society to standards you do hold, standards that you consider obviously good, but that have never been considered good by any other society ever, and that are certainly not obvious to many of us.
Using your type of argument, I might as well say to you, yes I have different beliefs from you, but at least I don’t insist on transforming society by redefining it’s foundational structure, the family, into something radically new and different.
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I mean, “its,” not “it’s” Grrrrr.
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