Christians, immigrants, and liberty
I always thought people who claim to be conservative but who have little understanding of nor genuine commitment to what that actually means—which is to say a great many politicians in the Republican Party—would gut liberty by slowly regulating and taxing the economy to death, all while claiming to favor free enterprise. For example, federal regulation increased more under George W. Bush and his Republican majority than it did under Bill Clinton, yet most Republican voters consider the former a committed conservative, and the latter a flaming liberal.
Now I’ve begun to think the de facto Republican strategy most likely to aid and abet the ascendance of leftists is to persistently alienate the likely future majority of American citizens, which is to say Latinos. Perhaps doubling down on this strategy, a disturbing number of people who would otherwise consider themselves defenders of U.S. constitutional principles line up behind regulatory frameworks like Alabama’s court-challenged anti-immigration law, which empowers police to arrest people on suspicion of being illegal immigrants, and deputizes public school teachers into border patrol bureaucrats.
If conservatism has any animating idea, it is that great power in the hands of government inverts Genesis 50:20. “You meant evil against me,” Joseph told his brothers, “but God intended it for good.” But what we have seen to be persistently true about any government armed with great intrusive authority is that no matter how good the intentions such power tends to be corrupted and the liberties of the virtuous destroyed.
Therefore, an underlying principle of our Constitution is that often we allow the stupid and wicked, in order that virtue might be protected. In turn, this principle is rooted in a Christian understanding of man—that he is fallen and sinful, and that you dare not give him much unchecked power.
Christians who have spent any time in front of an abortion clinic ought to know what this looks like at the local level, the way too many police officers behave as thugs when given the opportunity. My friends who oppose the violent “war on drugs” (a contributor, in no small part, to the desperate situation in an increasingly lawless Mexico) can rattle off story after story of theft, abuse, and senseless killing by police. So though I believe in law and order, the last thing I want to do is empower police officers to begin stopping and detaining people based on how they look, or their accent, or the condition of their papers.
Beyond that is the reality that the Alabama law runs the risk of criminalizing—at the capricious whim of an armed bureaucrat—Christian charity and evangelism. The interesting fact here is that arguments against this law by numerous Alabama church leaders challenge, in effect, vigorous opposition to immigration everywhere. After all, here we see a great many unchurched people desperate to come here, and to bring their children with them—which means that this is perhaps the greatest evangelical opportunity ever presented to the United States—and we balk at the cost. That’s not to say a Christian can’t consider financial burdens, but it’s not clear to me such a calculation even goes on among those who find themselves cheering for the likes of Tom Tancredo and Michele Bachmann.
Forsaken evangelism aside, it seems to me that Christians, regardless of political stripe, ought to be the most wary of authorizing governments to intrude in the private affairs of citizens, because we are supposed to guard the Church. And if nothing else, we can agree that governments have rarely been friends to the Church, but instead have a long, worldwide history of either oppressing or corrupting it. That is why the law in Alabama is not—and cannot be—just about immigration.

















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back to top45 Comments to “Christians, immigrants, and liberty”
The whole idea that any American is required to carry papers proving one’s identity outside the house (except, obviously, a driver’s license, if one is driving) is repugnant to me. And requiring, say, a birth certificate or social security card of anyone who looks Hispanic might well mean such people are subject to theft by others looking for such proof of identity themselves. I don’t want to carry my social security card; why should I want to require anyone else to?
(I don’t know what the law accepts as proof of citizenship; it’s just that the idea that it’s illegal for me to go for a walk with nothing in my pocket but keys seems anti-American to me. Yes, it might be wise to have a license and insurance card, or whatever, in case I get hit by a car and someone needs to know who I am. But “wise” and “legally required” are two different things.)
I too think the aggressive war on drugs is an assault on everyone’s freedom.
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If illegals could come here and have FULL SPONSORSHIP from a church in the same manner a Vietnamese “boat people” family did in the mid70s I would have NO PROBLEM.
If you want to have a welfare state you CANNOT have open borders.
If you want OPEN BORDERS you cannot have a welfare state.
All clear now are we?
Hope so!
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I think it’s a good idea to carry some form of identity at all times (even if you’re not driving). I encouraged a woman I work with who walks all the time, but carries nothing with her, to begin to do so. If she was hit by a car and unconscious, no one would have any idea as to who she was.
But, you’re right, Cheryl, wise and legal are two different things.
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If you want to have a welfare state you CANNOT have open borders.
If you want OPEN BORDERS you cannot have a welfare state.
Which is why Friedman said the best scenario (given the presence of the welfare state) is illegal immigration to jobs. Which is what we mostly have.
To your claim, though, I’m not sure even that holds up. Consider the following list of countries by per (1000) capita net migration:
8.24 Luxembourg
6.03 Australia
5.65 Canada
4.63 Singapore
4.18 United States
4.06 Hong Kong
Every country on that list has some form of welfare state. By most accounts the health care provisions of the non-U.S. countries are more generous than those provided in the U.S.
The trick is to maximize your immigration rate among the wealthy and educated, which I’m guessing those other countries do. Canada and Australia certainly do.
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If you want an efficient capitalist economy, you must have open borders. Its why Hong Kong flourished so much, with tens of thousands of Chinese who were simply walking across the border from mainland China.
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I work with a Spanish-language congregation, of whom probably over 70-80% are undocumented (if you count the children born here, that may drop by 10-15%).
Yesterday, one of the ladies was pulled over for a traffic infraction. Since she doesn’t have immigration papers, she can’t get a driver’s license. So she was taken to the county lockup to await a hearing this morning (if she had a DL, she would have just been ticketed and sent home witha court date). Since she had no ID and had an accent, they called immigration.
Normally, on a traffic infraction, once you appear before the judge and they set a court date, you can go home. But since they notified immigration that they have a suspected illegal alien, they are required to hold her for 48 hours (2 business days) for ICE to come pick her up. If ICE doesn’t show up within that time, they will let her go. Since we have a 3-day weekend because of the holiday, ICE has until Wednesday morning to get there.
And we know from past cases how this works. When ICE shows up to pick up prisoners being held for immigration, they’ll ask what each one is charged with. When the immigration officer hears that hers was a traffic violation, they’ll say they don’t want her and she’ll be released. But in the meantime, she, her husband, and her children have been traumatized, and an entire church has been worrying about her.
One county away in the state capital, about six months ago, one of the young adults from the church was in a car accident. He didn’t have a license either. But the police in that city just told him to take care of getting his license before his traffic court date, and the judge would probably dismiss the “no license” charge.
The county where my friend is being held for several days grew a lot in the 80’s and 90’s due to “white flight” from the capital (where the public schools admittedly were in crisis, so it wasn’t all racially motivated). I’m starting to see a pattern of them doing everything they legally can to intimidate and inconvenience Hispanics in an attempt to get them to move elsewhere.
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A Washington Post article I just saw on Drudge, starts with this first line:
Now you can say whatever you like about their illegal status, their humanity, the evangelical opportunity, but this remains a problem. When citizens cannot get representation, and illegals do….
…then something needs to change.
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Brian Roden
I don’t know where you live, but your description of location looks a lot like where I live.
I am white and respect the rule of law, but in this past decade, I am being forced to think through many issues, based upon other criteria.
I have never been a foreigner in this country. When I am outside of this country, I do carry my papers. Carrying one’s papers seems to be an international practice. Expecting non-American citizens to carry papers should be no different.
The rub comes when an American citizen is asked for papers, because of that person’s appearance. ‘Reminds me a little of “don’t ask; don’t tell”. “If you don’t ask, I won’t tell you that I have no papers and I am illegal”
Our welfare policies have contributed to foreigners coming, and expecting free stuff. That should stop, but don’t hold your breath on that.
Even with harassment by the drug cartels in Mexico, refugees from Mexico can not claim refugee status in the U S. Apprehended illegals are returned to Mexico, regardless.
I see no easy answer, but regarding the sponsorship by a church, that person must do everything possible, to be legal and to become an American. That sponsor church is responsible for that.
Obviously, being targeted, is not only inconvenient, but also embarrassing. Arizona’s SB1070 states that the officer can ask for papers if there is reasonable suspicion of the person being illegal, and that is reasonable, until we realize that the Patriot Act was also reasonable to some degree, at the time it came into effect.
Yes, politicians are bent on acquiring power. When have we stepped over the line?
Christians must be both obedient to God and to the civil law, but in America, we have a voice.
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I almost wish we could deport the native-born, entitlement-minded who live off the government, and give their citizenship to people who actually want to work.
My wife is from a border town in Mexico. Her parents and two sisters still live there. Every couple of weeks we hear about a confrontation between the army and the drug gangs. When we were there a few weeks ago visiting, there was a shootout not half a mile from my in-laws’ home, and they’re in a decent middle-class area (mostly school teachers and goverment civil servants). My wife, being a naturalized citizen, can petition for residency for her parents and get them here in 1-2 years. But her sisters would fall into the 4th level in the waiting list for an immigrant visa, which would take over 10 years.
yes, we have to do something about the illegals who are taking advantage of us. But we also have to fix the system that forces people to be illegal because the legal road has a bridge out
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Our welfare policies have contributed to foreigners coming, and expecting free stuff.
They come here because of jobs. Undocumented immigrants can’t take advantage of most of the programs that are available to citizens, though their children who are born here can. Here’s a run down.
So no federal unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid, SCHIP, TANF (aka “welfare”), federally subsidized housing (*), Social Security or Medicare.
(*) Undocumented immigrants can benefit from public housing so long as they room with a family member who would otherwise qualify and pay their share of the rent. Most don’t, however; the govt. estimates approximately 0.4% of public housing is made up by undocumented immigrants.
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Living in eastern Europe in the early 90s many of the ID laws were still in effect and hence my Polish friends would always make sure they had their “papers”. The American and Canadian teachers had a running joke saying “papers, please” with a German accent. The police once asked me for my papers at the train station and almost had a meltdown when I didn’t produce them.
Anglo-Saxon democracies are rare in that they don’t require papers to be produced on demand by the police. And we should keep it that way.
As Buddyglass points out illegal immigrants do not use or abuse welfare provisions nor do they travel to America for its welfare polices. If welfare was the sole attraction for illegal immigrants, Sweden would be overwhelmed not Italy and Spain. Its proximity and the ability to work illegally.
IF the US really wanted to end illegal immigration, the gov’t would go after the corporations which exploit illegals for low wage and complaint labour.
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Why can’t Teavangelicals see that the anti-immigration laws of Arizona, Alabama, and other states are job-killing government regulations?
You could deport jobless people who apply for food stamps or other welfare, if that’s important to you. You won’t enough to make it worth your trouble, I believe. But why raid job sites or detain people who were just driving to work, unless you simply can’t abide Mexicans?
A post on an adjacent thread asks what’s so morally terrible about driving 56 in a 55 mile zone. I would ask what’s so morally terrible about crossing a political line in the desert to serve an employer who wants to buy your labor.
If you ever drive your car over the speed limit, you’re a worser person than an illegal Mexican, I think.
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“If you ever drive your car over the speed limit, you’re a worser person than an illegal Mexican, I think.”
Well of course you would think so. That’s because illegals are less likely to object to your socialist revolution—and may even be one of your favorite voting blocks, Scroop. Someone speeding to work probably isn’t racing to get with your program. You guys will co-opt anybody you think you can use for a time.
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Random reaction to your piece Tony…
One of the reasons that GWBush’s approval rating was so low was that many conservatives disapproved of his policies i.e., prescription drug, lack of enforcement of immigration law and expanding federal government.
I don’t think that it is anti conservative or anti Christian to desire that laws enacted by congress regarding the method for individuals to legally immigrate to our country be enforced.
We have a system that restricts highly skilled highly educated people from coming here and at the same time leaves our southern board naked. All while unemployment among black youth is north of 50%. Now we could talk about minimum wage and other factors, but these immigrants compete against the most unskilled members of our work force.
Additionally, our laws regarding ‘illegal’ drugs and rent seeking behavior by organized crime in Mexico will and probably already has led to our immigrant communities becoming infiltrated by Mexican gangs/organized crime.
I am inspired by the risk that so many of these people take to find a better life in the US. However, our bureaucracies are porous and are like the hungry Caterpillar constantly looking for those among us to serve and the result is that even if, as I believe, that immigrants do not come to America for benefits the government scoops them up and puts them on the roles. This includes food stamps, earned income tax credits and Medicaid. Obviously, if someone is in our country and becomes sick or injured we will treat them, but in-case you haven’t noticed we are broke and we cannot afford the promises that we have made to our own natural born citizens much less immigrants.
The proliferation of these state laws regarding illegal immigrants is an unintended consequence of the federal government not enforcing its own laws. I could be wrong but I don’t believe that any of these state laws allow for stopping someone because of their appearance, further I believe that just this last week a federal judge ruled that it was not legal for police to stop a car because of broken or burned out tail/head light ruling that the it was not illegal to have a broken or burned out head light.
The rule of law is what has separated enlightened liberal (in the classical sense) democracies in the last 125 years- if we are going to disregard part of it then when people begin to disregard other parts of it where do we stop. If we want unlimited foreign immigration then we need to elect politicians who will change the law. The civil rights movement is proof that it can be done.
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DEBRA #13 makes the argument that “illegals” are one of the “favorite voting blocks” of liberals.
This is crazy. Illegal immigrants don’t vote.
If one of them ever did, there’s not a vote-seeking prosecutor or judge in the country who would not personally impose the death penalty, live on FOX. But it hasn’t happened.
Voting, welfare — these are phony excuses. Mexicans bring prosperity and blessing. They are manifestly good people who have lessons to teach us. Please see Chaucer’s description of the plowman.
Nevertheless, conservatives are morally superior people and they will go to heaven when liberals are sent to hell. At the last judgement, God of course will sign off on their excuses for failure to provide hospitality to the strangers within their gates. He might call it a “dispensation” or He might suspend sentence and take it out of the blood of Jesus. Meanwhile, we liberals can be proud of our filthy rags.
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CLASSICAL LIB I don’t think that it is anti conservative or anti Christian to desire that laws enacted by congress regarding the method for individuals to legally immigrate to our country be enforced.
The complaint about the rule of law is phony, I believe.
Government has no ethical duty to enforce civil violations just as it prosecutes felonies, which are a matter of personal safety. Do you get mad when patrol cars ignore cars that are speeding 56 in a 55 mph zone? Of course not. Immigration violations have even less moral force than highway traffic regulations.
Furthermore, Congress rejected legislation that attempted to make the presence of an undocumented immigrant a crime in the US. This is somewhat technical, but basically it’s not illegal to be an “illegal.” The law doesn’t forbid the presence of “illegals”; it simply allows, without requiring, their deportation. The law also gives people who are subject to deportation the right to petition the court to remain, and it gives citizens the right to petition on the alien’s behalf.
It’s quite obvious that anti-immigration folks are primarily angry that the law does not, actually, require the deportations and expulsions they wish. That is why they have been so busy enacting laws that will accomplish this.
So, protestations about the rule of law are a cover for other motives, I think
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CLASSICAL LIB #14: . . the government scoops them up and puts them on the roles. This includes food stamps, earned income tax credits and Medicaid.
Proof of citizenship is required to apply for Food Stamps, Medicaid, and other welfare benefits.
To get EITC, you also must be a U.S. citizen or resident alien all year, or a nonresident alien married to a U.S. citizen or resident alien and filing a joint return.
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96466,00.html#QA9
Since illegal aliens pay withholding taxes for program benefits they often will never get, the cost of improperly giving some aliens the EITC is surely less than the amount that they all pay as a group. Further, those who apply fraudulently are subject to substantial penalties.
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Perhaps churches in the USA that are currently focusing on illegal immigrants can instead focus their efforts on white high-school dropouts if they are so concerned about being prosecuted. I read an article in my local paper today that in a new study, researchers from the University of Virginia and John Hopkins University found that only 23% of white high school dropouts attend worship services at least monthly. According to the study, churchgoing among blacks and Latinos is more consistent regardless of educational attainment. W. Bradford Wilcox of the University of Virginia noted that the least educated white adults are the most likely to drop out of churchgoing and the job market. There are millions of US citizens that are no longer on the unemployment rolls and desperate. If the Church doesn’t help them and attempt to evangelize them, who will?
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No doubt the illegal population is a great benefit to the socialist revolution. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. And they can be sure of having their voices heard through the Socialist Democrat party or La Raza.
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And people who are equating opposition to illegal immigration with racism [Scroop] are completely off the beam, I’m afraid. My denomination is experiencing solid growth here in the US, and it’s mostly among the legal Hispanic population .
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“Why can’t Teavangelicals see that the anti-immigration laws of Arizona, Alabama, and other states are job-killing government regulations?”
For whom? For low-income citizens? Or for illegal aliens? I think you could solve two problems at once if you deported all the illegals, and started reforming and actually enacting our immigration policies.
Obviously you’d solve the illegal alien problem, but the other thing you’d solve is the unemployment problem.
I don’t actually think either of these scenarios is likely, however…
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One population of people no-one seems to care about with all these anti-immigrant laws are native-born Americans who don’t believe in sponging off the govt. I know many of them. They don’t get birth certs or social security numbers for their children. They work hard at whatever job they can get – usually less than minimum wage, and if they ever get sick they pay for it themselves, even if it takes years to pay off one doctor’s bill. If any policeman wanted to harrass them they could demand to see their papers – and when they can’t produce any, what then? Do they imprison them for life? Deport them to some other country they’ve never been to? What happens to native-born Americans who don’t have papers?
Every time people give this socialist govt more power – it always ends up hurting many people
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For whom? For low-income citizens? Or for illegal aliens?
Ask Gov. Perry for whom Texas is creating jobs.
Texas has far and away the highest annual increases in the population of illegal aliens of any state. Yet the state also has the most job creation, according to Gov. Perry.
Clearly, illegal aliens are creating jobs in Texas.
Texas has been getting around 90k illegal aliens a year compared with about 50k for California, the second biggest magnet.
The scale of illegal immigration in Texas is of a greater order of magnitude than any other state, and Texas is the Teavangelical model for job creation.
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Note: Texas has a relatively high age dependency ratio, which means it also has a high migration dependency ratio. Cowboys also get old. Deporting laborers will greatly diminish the productivity of a state like Texas.
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Very well said, Tony. This law could cause a second wave of racial segregation, people may fear to help any Hispanic-looking person for the possibility of being charged. The churches have done well to oppose it, and to remember that Christians are “strangers and pilgrims” too (I Peter 2:11).
‘But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.’ (Leviticus 19:34)
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“Clearly, illegal aliens are creating jobs in Texas.”
Uh… yeah… right. Because they have all that capital to invest.
Scroop. I think you need to get the perscription on those rose colored glasses changed.
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I was just going to mention that your typical Hispanic is more conservative than your typical Republican, especially on social issues. La Raza does not represent most Hispanics. I actually don’t know a single Hispanic who works with or likes La Raza, and that is including everyone I know in all five Burroughs of NYC, plus Pittsburgh.
The reason though many believe La Raza is the biggest group is because they have the biggest mouths and the most cash, coming from, I suspect, outside the Hispanic community.
The fact of the matter is, if it were not for our messed up immigration policy and the attitude of the Republican party, they would have the fastest growing voter block supporting them.
Also I would like to mention that many of these Latino immigrants, of whom my mother is one, came to this nation fleeing socialism, communism and facism. Why anyone would think they would want a gov’t here that was similar to the one they fled is a question I would love to have answered.
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As I see it, the rich don’t create jobs, consumers do.
To be fair to you, this assertion needs to be established by empirical observation and not theoretical reasoning alone. To be fair to me, your hypothesis requires testing also.
I think demand is what stimulates growth and employment.
You think capital is what increases GNP, so that cutting taxes on the wealthy stimulates more investment and economic activity.
Can you think of an empirical measurement that would persuade you to the other point of view?
I suppose I’d be bound by the same results. I could promise you that I’d change my mind if you only prove that cutting taxes raises government revenues or that cutting the top tax rate stimulated aggregate demand in the economy.
But I asked you first.
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I was just going to mention that your typical Hispanic is more conservative than your typical Republican, especially on social issues.
I hear this a lot, but I’m not sure how true it is. Consider this Pew poll on attitudes toward homosexuality. When asked “Should homosexuality be accepted by society?” 60% of Hispanics sayd “yes”. 40% of Republicans said “yes”.
When asked whether the effect of homosexuals raising children was “bad for society” 45% of Hispanics said “yes” compared to 70% of Republicans.
Then there’s this one about attitudes toward gay marriage. 45% of Hispanics are in favor vs. 14% of “conservative Republicans” and 36% of “moderate/liberal Republicans”.
This one is from 2009 and deals with abortion. 39% of Hispanics think abortion should be legal vs. 32% of Republicans.
Taken as a group, Republicans seem to be more socially conservative than Hispanics.
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The reason I connect LaRaza with the illegal population is that I happen to know that we have an incredibly high illegal population here in small town Tennessee. And I’ve seen a couple of signs advertising LaRaza in the year I’ve been here. That’s more than I saw in all my years in liberal Connecticut.
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That is true, Mr. Woodlief
Which means they can stop anyone even if they DON’T look like an illegal and SAY they thought they were an illegal when they stopped them.
And why would they ONLY stop people who look HISPANIC when we are told that MUSLIM illegals are here as well?
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No one should be stopped for no reason. But people who are stopped for legit purposes should be able to show id if they are driving.
And I would like to see the Hispanic community welcomed into a Conservative Republican party–I think they are. But why should an opposition to illegal immigration be a hindrance? It should not be, and probably wouldn’t be if not for the constant campaign wrongly equating opposition to illegal immigration with racism.
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“But what we have seen to be persistently true about any government armed with great intrusive authority is that no matter how good the intentions such power tends to be corrupted and the liberties of the virtuous destroyed.”
Amen, Tony. Well, said. But in the end, as I said in the Republicrat thread, those who break the law are lawbreakers and have little recourse. I paid a $25 ticket for not wearing a seat belt even though I considered it ridiculous. I also pay $11 each month to the town for water I never use (and will never use) because the alternative is that they will confiscate my house.
The keyword in “illegal aliens” is that they are illegal. The Obama administration has decided to disregard all laws it doesn’t like, but doesn’t that just undermine the rule of law?
The answer is to change the laws, which perhaps is your point. Perhaps you are saying evangelicals should vote against the criminalization of illegals. But shouldn’t the first step be to find a way to make them legals?
As Brian Roden points out, the root of the problem in our draconian immigration policy. That is what needs to change. That is a far better solution than having a justice department that disregards the rule of law and investigates whomsoever it will. And if church members decide to also disregard the law, they will need to be prepared to pay.
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And what about the laws effect on another huge, but forgotten population – namely forgetful people like me. So often I get somewhere and go to pay for something, when I realise that I’ve left my whole purse at home, with all of my ID in it. If I was in Arizona I guess I’d be put in jail while I try to get someone to come to jail, get my house keys, go to my house get my purse and come back. What would happen to my children in that time? Would they be shoved in foster care for those hours? I guess I’d also have to carry my passport around, because I never got a green card – it got lost in the mail.
Also people like me who love our neighbour would be in trouble with such laws, I have driven illegals to the grocery store, to medical appointments and even interpreted for them, I’ve had their children at my home for homeschool English and preschool lessons; and I would do all of these things again.
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Well, there could be unintended consequences to this specific law in Alabama. According to the piece on World radio, the judge hearing the case has said he thinks it ‘unlikely’ that prosecutors will go after churches or ministers. I do find that statement disturbing. I would never want to rely on the good-will of prosecutors (or any other governmental agent) for ANYTHING. The relevant question is not WILL they use this law to go after churches and ministries, but is this law written in such a way that they CAN use this law to do so. No law should criminalize an otherwise ordinary and intrinsically lawful activity like just taking someone to church or the doctor or babysitting for a friend— regardless of immigration status. It’s not like you’re driving the getaway car in a bank robbery.
In general, we have far too many laws, most of them bad. This may turn out to be just another. Our nation hasn’t had a coherent immigration policy in decades, and this neglect has spawned a hodge-podge of state laws that attempt to deal with very real and growing local problems.
It’s also prompted cities and entire regions to officially embrace lawlessness by becoming ‘sanctuary cities’ that openly defy federal law. Yet you don’t see federal judges going after sanctuary cities for ‘making immigration law’. That’s one reason I see illegal immigration as a political football passed between those who want a potential voting block and community support to foster revolution, and those who believe in the rule of law as a means to govern (….and who also want the Hispanic voting block and community support.)
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The keyword in “illegal aliens” is that they are illegal. The Obama administration has decided to disregard all laws it doesn’t like, but doesn’t that just undermine the rule of law?
For the record, Obama is deporting undocumented immigrants at a higher rate than Bush.
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That article is misleading Buddy. It takes the highest rates under Obama and compares them to the lowest rates under Bush. Here is the actual data.
Bush’s numbers were increasing every year and were as high as 26% change from 2007 to 2008. Obama clipped this down to 5.6% in 2009 and 0.8% in 2010. 2011 will be a decrease and this trend is expected to continue.
This same sort of “misleading with the truth” is what causes his minions to say taxes are the lowest in years. That is true temmporarily, but it ignores the dramatic increases he has strategically placed just after election cycles. Obama is perhaps the most successful liar in American history, because his lies are true just before they are not.
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FY2009 was partly Bush and partly Obama, so we can throw it out. Removals did increase under Bush from FY2007 to FY2008. However FY2010, the only full year fully attributable to Obama, was even higher than FY2008. So how exactly is Obama “ignoring the law” when Bush wasn’t?
If you extrapolate the FY2011 numbers then we’re on pace for 366k total removals. That’s down from Obama’s FY2010, but roughly equal to Bush’s FY2008 total. Moreover, Obama is doing a better job than Bush of specifically deporting convicted criminals.
The fact remains that Obama is not “ignoring the law”; he’s enforcing approximately just as well (or slightly better) than Bush ever did.
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BUDDYGLASS The fact remains that Obama is not “ignoring the law”
If that’s a fact, why do you suppose Teavangelicals are saying otherwise?
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If that’s a fact, why do you suppose Teavangelicals are saying otherwise?
My personal opinion? Neither president is enforcing the law to the extent he could be. But it’s useful to complain about now since the president happens to be Obama.
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Do you mean “could be” as “should be”?
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No, just “could be”. Bush could have done more. Obama could be doing more. I’m not expressing a value judgment of how they’re handling the situation.
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#38 “So how exactly is Obama “ignoring the law” when Bush wasn’t?”
My point was that your article was a wild exaggeration because it misrepresented the numbers by using min/max and ignoring the trend. As for ignoring the law, I could cite examples all night.
1. Holder sues Arizona and Alabama for their immigration laws, but won’t got after sanctuary cities which actually are breaking the law.
2. Obama ignored the war powers act when he initiated the war in Libya secretly while on foreign soil.
3. Obama said he would not uphold the Defense of Marriage Act.
4. A justice department policy refuses to enforce civil rights laws to protect white victims against black perpetrators
5. Holder systematically ignores black on white crimes.
6. The Healthcare bill which was crafted in secret and voted on in the dead of night before it could be read is unconstitutional.
I could go on and on. Obama and Holder have decided which laws they will and will not enforce. His oath of office is essentially meaningless.
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My question was specifically with regard to immigration. How can you say, given the number of deportations, that Obama’s government has ignored immigration law whereas Bush’s didn’t?
1. Holder sues Arizona and Alabama for their immigration laws, but won’t got after sanctuary cities which actually are breaking the law.
Did Bush go after sanctuary cities? Also I’m not convinced they’re breaking the law. It’s the fed’s job to enforce immigration policy, not local police.
3. Obama said he would not uphold the Defense of Marriage Act.
The justice department is not obligated to defend laws it views as unconstitutional. There is clear precedent for this.
4. A justice department policy refuses to enforce civil rights laws to protect white victims against black perpetrators
Link?
5. Holder systematically ignores black on white crimes.
Link?
6. The Healthcare bill which was crafted in secret and voted on in the dead of night before it could be read is unconstitutional.
The courts have yet to come to that conclusion.
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@ #48 (BUDDYGLASS)
In response to your comments:
1. It is indeed the federal government’s job to enforce immigration laws. However, if the feds won’t do their job, then the backup enforcers (the states) must step in.
3. The DOJ is an extension of the Executive Branch (The President), which is REQUIRED by the US Constitution to enforce the laws on the books. So, Obama must put aside his bias against traditional marriage and encourage the DOJ to defend DOMA. If Obama doesn’t like this, he can try to convince the American people to encourage Congress to repeal DOMA.
4. Here is a link on Eric Holder’s DOJ giving a pass to Black militants who harass White voters:
http://biggovernment.com/sright/2010/07/09/new-black-panther-party-president-admits-to-philadelphia-voter-intimidation-holders-justice-department-still-silent/
5. Here is a link on Eric Holder compelling the DOJ to ignore Blacks committing crimes against Whites:
http://www.smallgovtimes.com/2010/07/holder%E2%80%99s-justice-department-has-a-racism-issue/
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