Cheering justice
One of our Predator drones last week took out the American al-Qaeda terrorist leader Anwar al-Awlaki in northwest Yemen. This man was the inspiration and, in some cases, the director behind the underwear bomber, the Times Square bomber, the Fort Hood massacre, and many other slaughters, both real and attempted. His death is good news, no?
Should we simply weep over a fallen world where murder is common and either lethal response or the threat of it is regrettably necessary? Or, like Osama bin Laden’s destruction at the hands of our Navy SEALs, is this violent end to an international mass murderer a time to pop the cork and throw a party? Was the 10th anniversary of 9/11 an occasion not only to remember our dead but also to celebrate our victories?
We saw the same discomfort with retributive justice at the Reagan Library debate between GOP presidential candidates. The liberal establishment was shocked that the Republican audience cheered Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s chart-topping record for authorizing executions. NBC’s Brian Williams asked him, “Your state has executed 234 death row inmates, more than any other governor in modern times. Have you struggled to sleep at night?” Perry responded, “No sir. I’ve never struggled with that at all,” citing the thoroughness of the process, the heinousness of the crimes, and the deterrent value of the punishment.
But what made news was the cheers, not his answer. Media personalities asked what monstrous people these are who are poised to take decisive control of our government just over a year from now. Even conservatives like Peggy Noonan and Joe Scarborough (yes, of course, they’re conservatives) were disappointed that the candidates did not rebuke the audience.
But they were not celebrating “killing people.” They were cheering justice. And this is understandable in a day when government spreads its power where it has no business being, but is scandalously slow, inefficient, or completely inactive where it is called to be strong: in punishing evil “[The one who is in authority] does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4).
In the end, the problem comes down to theology, not political theory. People do not believe that God has revealed Himself in the Bible as “infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, goodness, justice, and truth” (Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 4). I find this squeamishness, even among some of my evangelical Christian students, about God’s retributive justice—about the effective execution of divine wrath by God’s appointed, sword-bearing agents—a cause for cultural and political concern.
If divine authority does not stand behind political office, then police power and the power of war become simply means of control, not instruments of justice. If there is no divine justice, no transcendent standard of good and evil, then politics is just as Thrasymachus told Socrates in The Republic, “the advantage of the stronger.”
Or it is a merely visceral, and thus selfish, desire for revenge. Within that moral horizon, decent people, of course, recoil at it. Without a return to God—not a sentimentalized and reduced God, but the fully biblical God of both wrath and grace, of both judgment and forgiveness—our political life will become ever more dangerous and our private lives increasingly less secure.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top39 Comments to “Cheering justice”
I haven’t flown since they installed the latest “security” at airports.
I sometimes think about whether I would prefer to be frisked like a criminal, or stand “naked” in front of some man who can later peruse the photos for entertainment.
Report comment to moderator
But they were not celebrating “killing people.” They were cheering justice.
Define justice and tell me who has a right to determine for a society what is just. The President alone? The Governor alone? Your own minister of the gospel? His bosses? Or every individual parishioner?
No, I think they were celebrating vengeance which is carried out by individuals and mobs, not societies with rules seeking to actually do justice.
Report comment to moderator
Whether it’s 234 convicts executed or one terrorist killed, cheering is not a righteous response.
God is just, but a proper view of God’s justice would remember that Christ satisfied it on our behalf, and that ought to keep us from rejoicing in that justice being applied to others.
The state is granted authority to dispense justice, but that doesn’t mean we should be in the stands hooting and cheering while lions rip the rebels to shreds.
Report comment to moderator
“No, I think they were celebrating vengeance which is carried out by individuals and mobs, not societies with rules seeking to actually do justice.”
What?
We have a Constitution, made by the people, which elects representatives, who are charged with appointing wise judges, who hold trials under peer review of a jury for those charged with murder, who afterwards have multiple appeals if charged guilty…
What mob? What individual? What lack of rules? What vengeance?
Can you even define Vengeance?
Report comment to moderator
Whenever evil is stopped (permanently in the case of a murderer’s execution or a drone attack on a terrormaster) I feel like cheering.
Can anyone tell me how many trained legal minds review the cases in all Texas capital cases? Appeal is automatic for capital crimes. And getting a jury to conclude you did the crime and therefore deserve execution? That generally takes a thorough presentation of facts matched up to the law.
Still I’m not at all comfortable with swift executions. But if there was anything to exonerate a defendant, doncha think it would turn up in 20 plus years, esp now that we have DNA collection?
In Texas prisoners have been identified as the perps in crimes for which they werent even prosecuted for.
Does the death penalty deter murder? Has an executed man ever killed again?
Report comment to moderator
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/279256/anwar-al-awlaki-s-american-journey-clifford-d-may
This man deserved to die. I don’t know if I’d feel better if it were from an artillery round, a sniper’s bullet or a drone attack.
Report comment to moderator
And this is understandable in a day when government spreads its power where it has no business being, but is scandalously slow, inefficient, or completely inactive where it is called to be strong: in punishing evil
Report comment to moderator
#7 We keep defining deviancy downward as Moynihan and others pointed out.
Anytime there are rights to appeal and challenge findings (murder trials, disability hearings) I guess we want it to be a slow and methodical proces.
Justice delayed is justice denied. But no one ever says that in criminal cases esp if they are defense lawyers.
Report comment to moderator
The death penalty is just that — a penalty.
Report comment to moderator
There was more rejoicing in the audience at the Reagan Library than there was in heaven.
D.C.INNES confuses his main point. Gov. Perry isn’t God’s agent, he’s our’s. We the people are God’s agent. So, we get to decide the terms. The merciful or unmerciful judge is us.
Perry should have lost a night’s sleep over Todd Willingham. Unfortunately, he only lost sleep over the cover-up.
I don’t want anybody killed juridically by we the people. My expression of will isn’t an act of rebellion against God, it’s my legitimate contribution to our democracy. Unfortunately, social conservatives and right wingers have no respect for the conscience of a liberal. Not executing a criminal harms nobody, while executions traduce the sensibilities of admirable citizens.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn: So those folks were actually cheering for our justice system?? Sorry, but folks who do that do not ususally do so from the peanut gallery. As for vengeance I think I offered a decent quick and dirty definition above.
And you totally ignored my query about who determines what justice is. Particularly when in comes to Awlaki.
One last query. Is it justice if an innocent person is executed? How can we be sure? Do you trust our justice system to get it right every time?
Report comment to moderator
I see an important distinction between being glad that evil has stopped (an end) and being glad that someone was killed (a means). The killing is sometimes necessary toward the end, and I’m not saying that you should mope about it if it was just, but it should not be celebrated in itself.
Take bin Laden’s death. I am glad that he is dead. Justice was served; his evil has been stopped. But I thought the public celebration of his death reflected poorly on us as a culture. We made ourselves no better than our enemies in that celebration of death.
This is one of those times, I think, when a dignified silence is the only appropriate response.
Mention of 234 executions would be another.
Report comment to moderator
I think the cheering was inappropriate but when did we get to the point where politician are suppose to control every supporter everywhere?
Report comment to moderator
I agree with JJF; however, it is asking a lot of the average person to know and understand such a high ethical standard. I think that those people were wrong for cheering, but I am not surprised that an ordinary, run-of-the-mill person would feel that way. Far from being monsters, I believe that they are just typical people.
Arcadia, I think that most people will find your questions too elementary to answer. You don’t know who defines justice in America? You don’t know how our legal system works?
Scroop Moth, you have a point. It is hard to be in the minority on a serious issue like capital punishment. That’s how many of us feel about abortion. You might not believe that a governor is God’s agent, but the Bible teaches it, so Christians believe it. However a person in authority got there, God expects that person to execute justice on His behalf.
Report comment to moderator
Don’t kid yourself or try to kid anyone else — that boy was not innocent.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry, KYLE, I don’t think conservatives know how liberals feel about this, because abortions are not performed by order of the people. The state doesn’t kill fetuses — pregnant women do. They don’t contract their abortions in the name of the People of the State of Texas or the People of the USA.
You would be correct to complain that liberals (and the Constitution) prevent social conservatives from getting their hands on the jailhouse keys, but liberals are not compelling governments to kill fetuses as the government kills criminals on death row.
Thanks for the gesture of sympathy, however.
What DC INNES calls “justice,” I call an insult to the sensibilities of decent liberals. DC INNES has majority opinion on his side, but that’s no reason to force an offense upon the consciences of valuable neighbors and fellow-citizens.
Regarding the divine right of St. Paul’s earthly authorities, I think y’all are being argumentative. In a democracy, the voters wield the sword. Gov. Perry kills at the pleasure of the voters of Texas. They could stop this barbarism almost instantly, because, in a democracy, authority derives from the consent of the governed.
Report comment to moderator
#3 Nicely said JJF! I’m not sure we’ve ever agreed, but you hit the nail on the head there.
I agree with DC Innes when he talks about God’s justice and I understand that God authorized states to carry out capital punishment in Gen 10, but I don’t cheer the state, since governments are mostly inept.
The greater question here is whether everyone is fine with Obama’s new Star Chamber where people who are called the ‘Principals’ place names on a kill list for execution. If you are an American citizen then Obama must authorize it, but if you are a foreigner, you’re as good as dead as soon as a Principal says so.
Liberals made hay out of Bush’s desire to listen to the phone calls of foreigners, but these same people are pretty much OK with a leftist president who wants to track American citizens, read their emails and snuff them out whenever he sees fit.
Report comment to moderator
Neither Obama nor any president has the power to dismantle fascism. The best a Democratic president can do is not make it worse, not push the envelope, and not make political hay.
Night fell upon us when Obama spared Cheney and GWB from prosecution. Our savior generals and CIA protectors won. Ever since, Cheney has been castigating Obama for not being fascist enough.
So far as we know, Obama hasn’t tortured people to death — except by bombing them at a distance. This is an improvement, but not a cure for the sickness of a declining empire.
No president can countermand our security/political officers. If Obama had tied, these people could have arranged an assassination and pinned the blame on a schizophrenic.
Clearly, he wanted to treat terrorism more as a law enforcement problem, but that wasn’t possible while neocons and social conservatives denied him domestic detention and the use of our domestic court system.
Snuffing terrorists “on the battlefield” is legal, whatever principles it violates. Breaking the surveillance laws was not, whatever purpose it served.
Report comment to moderator
Just like Chicago politics.
NO JUSTICE! You pay for “security” or they shut you down.
Why did homeland security shut down 4 guitar factories? Twice?
2009 and 2011 – they give lame excuses, but something STINKS!
Great use of HOMELAND SECURITY!
The guitar factory’s rival is an Obama supporter.
Obama is a criminal any way you slice it.
Report comment to moderator
If FAST & FURIOUS has been successful, WHO would have gotten the credit?
Report comment to moderator
The liberal position on everything a Democrat does is that it’s OK because Republicans are worse. It isn’t true, but it provides a free pass to do essentially anything without any accountability.
Obama can start illegal wars, run guns to drug cartels, track Americans, read their emails and even assassinate them and it is all perfectly fine because Republicans are worse. Except they aren’t.
Report comment to moderator
“One last query. Is it justice if an innocent person is executed?”
Why don’t you ask Christ that question?
Report comment to moderator
What do you mean by that, Thorn?
Arcadia was talking about errors in our justice system which cause us to execute innocent men. Are you arguing that the execution of innocent men is not unjust because Christ was executed as an innocent man?
Report comment to moderator
Wasn’t making any argument, just redirected to the appropriate person to ask…considering he was the ONLY innocent man ever.
That aside, if you wish to protect innocent to the specific crime, then you should only allow execution sentences via actual eye witness testimony. Charged guilty under eye witnesses, and a judge sentences execution…quit this 20 years of appeals nonsense, and take them out and execute them within the next 24 hours.
Report comment to moderator
I would rather be executed quickly and mercifully as an innocent person than to stroke a liberal’s conscience and be locked up for 40 years as an innocent person.
Report comment to moderator
SOCIAL WORKER – you raise the most powerful argument I know in favor of the death penalty: euthanasia. It’s an argument that some Texas prosecutors have made. Life in prison without parole is cruel and unusual punishment, they think. These prosecutors pursue the death penalty in order to relieve murderers of the worst punishment that could befall them.
Whether or not it’s the cruelest punishment, the death penalty is cruel. You may be familiar with Dostoevsky’s explanation of why: ge suffered a mock execution, with a last-minute reprieve. For the reasons he gives, I suspect that executed murderers suffer more existential torment than their victims — but who can know?
I oppose the DP for other reasons, however. It’s a cruel offense to the fine sensibilities of little children and all good people who are grossed out by it, and to me. Every time I hear that somebody has been executed, I feel kicked in the gut. I’m sure Republican audiences cheer in order to deliver this insult to liberals.
Regarding your comment, nobody on death row has the option of being executed “as an innocent person.” Despite factual innocence, society won’t acknowledge the facts, because conclusions about the facts are only possible in court proceedings. According to conservative legal theory, factual innocence is not a constitutional claim. Bloggers may be able “prove” your innocence, but you’ll die convicted none the less. Exoneration is infinitely harder to obtain than acquittal. Pray all you want for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, there is no mercy here.
Notice how Sawgunner expressed resentment at the release of Amanda Knox for lack of physical evidence. The conservative mind cannot relent from the project of punishment. The death penalty is the fulcrum of their moral universe.
This is the most severe consequence of conviction. It’s worse than the sentence. For as long as you live, all your efforts to convince someone you were “really” innocent will draw blank stares. Every convicted felon says he or she is innocent, right?
You of course know you’re innocent, but that may be knowledge beyond the reach of your own parents, and of parents who have spent $3 million on legal and PR fees. Incidentally, the same holds true of an arrest record, though to a lesser extent. You must have done something, right?
Report comment to moderator
At one time, I thought the death penalty was the best form of punishment to a proven murderer. However, recently there have been a string of wrongful convictions overturned in our courts. Some people sat 20 years in jail for a crime they did not commit because the police took short cuts. Several, due to an incompetent coroner, were charged with crimes that never even happened. There is something to the saying, ‘better to have 10 criminals go free than have 1 innocent man suffer.’
There are only a handful of murderers that I think should suffer the death penalty. All are serial killers, convicted on their own evidence, and guilty by their own proud admission.
Report comment to moderator
In the end, the problem comes down to theology, not political theory.
God provided the circumstances for civil govt to carry out capital punishment as well as the conditions for reaching a verdict. Our laws reflect that in many states and justice is administered. Unfortunately, this is also for a society with right moral standards to administer this justice.
It will be impossible for justice to be properly administered in a culture of moral relativism as the Progressives have provided us today with their form of theology.
Report comment to moderator
The death penalty is not about retribution or deterrence or numerous other red herrings. All punishment has to do with the values of a society. The higher the value, the greater the punishment.
The highest value in a good society is life. The highest price someone can pay is their life. Life for life is placing the highest penalty on the taking of the highest value.
The problem with the death penalty is not in its principle. The problem is with the American court system which has become an abysmal wreck. Court cases are not about truth. They are about winning. Sometimes the guilty win and the innocent lose.
Is it better or worse to be executed as an innocent man or to be found innocent decades later and released just before you die? Either way, the court system failed and a life is ruined.
But this is all small potatoes compared to a potentate who has assembled a Star Chamber that assassinates people without a trial. A bad trial is at least better than none at all.
Report comment to moderator
XION,
A potentate that violates the Constitution and creats his own laws
Judges that violate the Constitution and create policy based upon what they think is right
Prosecutors that do the same to further their career.
Police Officers that do the same out of frustration with the failing system of justice.
More and more people that decide to do their own thing as they believe they are the ones that determines what is right and wrong.
Congress that violates the constraints of the Constitution and give us more socialism/fascism and a failing monetary system.
The humanists worldview/religion has given us moral relativism and positive law. We appear to be deliberately headed into a period of anarchy. That would glorify Saul Alinsky as another ideologue that rules from the grave.
Report comment to moderator
#30 RwHawk “We appear to be deliberately headed into a period of anarchy. That would glorify Saul Alinsky as another ideologue that rules from the grave.”
I would prefer anarchy to totalitarianism. Saul Alinsky, another Chicago community organizer, inspired the Cloward-Piven strategy for forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. However, the anarchy is meant to be temporary. The end game is totalitarianism.
Liberalism cannot tolerate liberty, since people who are free will not do what you want, but what they want. How can one create a Utopia if people are free to mess things up? And so liberalism always leads to the loss of liberty. Socialism is where we are heading.
Report comment to moderator
I’m not a pacifist or morally opposed to the death penalty; but I may be a bit of a coward because I didn’t want to read this troubling piece. I would like to think that the crowd at the Reagan library was cheering for justice, but who knows.
I can understand the cheering of soldiers who have won a victory, since they routinely put their lives in jeopardy. But cheering the death penalty is jarring, especially in light of the moratorium imposed by several states because of questionable guilt or methods of execution.
The last death penalty case I’ve heard about is Troy Davis, who was executed in Georgia a couple weeks ago. On another thread last week, I diminished the value of protesting such things, but the truth is, if there were no vigils or protests, we might all become as blasé about executions as Gov. Perry appears to be.
As Davis was being executed, he claimed to be innocent. Was he? I don’t know. But putting someone to death is one of the most somber events in public life. It should be relatively rare, and it should not be ignored—nor should the reason for it be ignored: lives have been lost. Any way you look at it, there’s nothing to cheer about.
Report comment to moderator
XION,
The problem with anarchy is that it is only a short-lived, transitional form of governing; totalitarianism always follows this temporary stage as in most situations the anarchy was stirred up and led by a group of radicals; ACORN, Move-on.org. SEIU come to mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw
Report comment to moderator
Yeah, usually someone still ends up controlling the mob or taking advantage of it.
Which is what the government will do, if people are marching against corporations. It gives them an excuse to take another bit of power away from them. And the people still get nothing.
Report comment to moderator
THORN,
I beg to differ; the people get a whole lot more enslavement
Report comment to moderator
DEBRA,
I would think the majority of the attendees at the Reagan Library are respecters of human life and civil justice. God’s first command for humankind within the sphere of civil govt was capital punishment due to God’s special creation that is in His image:
Genesis 9:5-6 (NASB)
… And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
The death penalty is a small part of the intentional deaths in our “death” culture of cultural Marxism. At least it is directed by God Vs man’s corruption through moral relativism and the anti-Christian bias in our culture as we witness a mass of injustice via spiritual death, pre-born human slaughter, violent acts of murder, voluntary acts of suicide through homosexual behavior, drug and alcohol abuse, etc
Report comment to moderator
Another reason never to cheer:
Justice is always a compromise. It’s rough: too severe or too light, too hasty or too slow, too arbitrary or too biased. For every case that reaches the sweet spot, 99 are sour. The elements of justice are mutually incompatible. The Constitutional requirements specific to the DP are simply unworkable.
Have you ever sat on a jury? No matter how assiduously jurors take notes, they don’t truly “weigh” facts. They respond to the facts that impress them most, based on their sympathies and antipathies. Humans are biased, herd thinkers. I know this because I sat on a jury that awarded maximum damages to a patient whose doctor was absolutely blameless (but had an arrogant witness-stand manner). I’m biased, too. Maybe if the defendant had been an uneducated woman of color, I would have given her the money! Fortunately, I didn’t face that test of conscience.
The state of the art in judicial homicide involves a process called “mitigation.” In capital cases, SCOTUS requires this to be part of the penalty phase. Over the years, “mitigation” experts have learned what works and doesn’t work as an effective counter-force to the prosecution. When deployed skillfully, “mitigation” has a material, almost inevitable impact on death-qualified juries. Even jurors who believe that the DP is not applied enough and who were pre-disposed during the guilt phase to vote for death cannot resist the powerful claims of mitigation.
These jurors go back to communities of people who think just like they do and get rebuked, “What were you thinking?”
Report comment to moderator
SCROOP,
I would suggest that the problem you pose is due to moral relativism and the world of diaprax. Dialectical praxis is the ‘thinking’ process taught in our schools for the past 5 or 6 decades as opposed to the didactic approach. Feelings, emotions and grayness Vs facts, knowledge and absolutes. A person in this mode is often double minded and ripe for cultural transformation and change but the process does play havoc with the judicial system.
Report comment to moderator
I have nothing against absolutes per se. Theological truths are absolute. Arithmetic is absolute. Almost everything else however involves dialectical practice when we’re at our best or pure rhetorical spin per usual.
This is how it’s been not for 5 or 6 decades but for about 25 centuries. Logos is dandy where it’s relevant. The vast majority of human experience is a struggle to crawl out of rhetoric and into dialectic.
I would suggest that your appeals to the absolute are always rhetorical. Also misanthropic. Dialectical training and practice is the highest achievement of human civilization so far.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's Community section to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!