Conscience, counseling, and homosexuality
In January 2009, Julea Ward enrolled as a graduate student in the counseling program at Eastern Michigan University. When she was assigned to counsel someone seeking help with a homosexual relationship, she realized it would be a violation of her Christian beliefs to do so.
Ward turned to her supervisor who advised her to reassign the client. University officials then informed Ward that she would have to undergo a “remediation” program, the purpose of which was to help her “see the error of her ways.”
According to the Alliance Defense Fund (now representing her), Ward’s religious beliefs were denigrated at a formal review meeting. One faculty member reportedly asked Ward if she believed her “brand” of Christianity was superior to that of other Christians.
Ward was then dismissed from the program, and her appeal to the dean of EMU’s College of Education was denied.
Represented by attorneys from the ADF, Ward filed a lawsuit with the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan. In July 2010 that court ruled in favor of EMU. That ruling was based, according to Fox News, on EMU’s contention that Ward “violated school policy and the American Counseling Association’s code of ethics, which forbids counselors from discrimination in clinical practice.”
ADF attorneys representing Ward appealed to the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals where oral arguments were heard earlier this week. They argued that it was Ward who suffered discrimination. “Public universities shouldn’t force students to violate their religious beliefs to get a degree,” said Jeremy Tedesco, one of Ward’s ADF attorneys. “Rather than allow Julea to refer a potential client to another qualified counselor—a common, professional practice to best serve clients—EMU attacked and questioned Julea’s religious beliefs and ultimately expelled her from the program because of them.”
Tedesco believes that Ward’s First Amendment rights were violated when the university required her to enter a remediation program intended to change her beliefs about homosexuality.
Let’s be clear here. Because of her Christian views, Ward did not feel that she could, in good conscience, support a patient requesting help with a homosexual relationship. Would a counselor forced into trying to help a patient truly serve him well? Isn’t it reasonable to assume that Ward’s reservations would have impacted her ability to offer her full support?
Ward knew she wasn’t the right person for that job. Surely counselors should have the right to refer patients to others better equipped to help them. Call it a conscience exemption, or just plain common sense. But don’t call it discrimination.

















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back to top73 Comments to “Conscience, counseling, and homosexuality”
Ward turned to her supervisor who advised her to reassign the client. University officials then informed Ward that she would have to undergo a “remediation” program, the purpose of which was to help her “see the error of her ways.”
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People today still do not believe the Christian Faith is not under attack here in the United States.. This is just another example of the assult from the left on the Christian Faith.
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Interesting issue. Presumably, before she took the job she knew a)that she had a problem with homosexuality based upon her religion and b)what her profession’s ethics code said about it. Yet, apparently she said nothing about this conflict to the folks who were about to hire her.
And if they had asked, chances are they would have violated some kind of law, and in all likelihood somebody would have hollered about a religious qualification test.
So…must a university or anyone hiring a professional inquire about the applicant’s religious beliefs?
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Pastor Roy:
Doesn’t someone hiring a professional counselor have a right to assume that that counselor will conform to the code of that profession?
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So Christian can not longer enrolled as a graduate student in the counseling program at Eastern Michigan University, because of their, Christian Faith.
I guess the only people who can apply are non-Christian and those who claim to be Christian but do not follow the teaching of God’s Word.
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Read the aricle again arcadia….
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Sorry
Read the article again Arcadia
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Why would someone as judgmental as Julea Ward want to be a professional counselor to begin with? Anyone who does counseling knows the three central counseling concepts:
1: Focus on the feelings on your client.
2: Manage your own discomfort.
3: Establish professional boundaries between you and your client.
I think she’s in the wrong line of work. She should start her own ministry, then she can be as “holier than thou” as she wants.
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“Yet, apparently she said nothing about this conflict to the folks who were about to hire her.”
It’s a graduate program…she enrolled. It’s not a hire/fire job.
What’s your degree in Arcadia? Did you declare all your possible self conflicts before enrolling for a degree?
Put it this way, say the public university asks an atheist to counsel a christian couple on christian values, that atheist asks them to be reassigned to a different counselor, who would be better suited. Instead, the university, then demands the atheist to take a “remediation” class to “see the error of their ways” or be dismissed…
I have a hard time seeing you be okay with that…
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First rule they taught me in my pastoral counseling class. Was to know when you were not the right person to counsel a certain issue.
Secound rule, be honest with the person coming to you, an explain why they may have to turn to someone else.
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Thorn – This is just another attack on the Christian Faith.
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The “remediation” thing is what really bothered me. That’s appalling.
It is an attack on the Christian faith, but it is also an attack on the Constitution.
The Thought Police should be ashamed but they are not.
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NJLawyer – This idea of undergo a “remediation” program… Will be seen also in the Military, when a Christian’s Chaplain or a Christian’s Soldier speaks out against the GLBT Community.
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I know.
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BY Pastor Roy 10.07.11 AT 12:09 PM
First rule they taught me in my pastoral counseling class. Was to know when you were not the right person to counsel a certain issue.
Secound rule, be honest with the person coming to you, an explain why they may have to turn to someone else.
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Exactly! She is being punished for being honest and professional.
“Counselors are entitled to their own religious beliefs, but they do not have a right to discriminate as part of their professional training at a public university.”
Ms Ward did not choose to discriminate, she was forced to discriminate by the University, due to her having wholesome and responsible religious beliefs incompatible with the University’s irresponsible sexuality ideology.
After being forced to discriminate by the University, Ward is being blamed for none other than discrimination!
A total circus.
This case is about religion, freedom of religion, public education, freedom of expression, and ideologies about homosexuality.
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“Michael Steinberg, legal director of the ACLU of Michigan, said public school counselors should not be “able to close the door” to homosexual students looking for guidance.”
I think so too. The last thing students with a homosexual problem could get is proper guidance from the ACLU people, Lady Gaga, and the great majority of liberals. What we need more of are Julea Wards as school counselors.
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The judge said this in defense of his decision:
“The university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values.”
So whose values are we supposed to “impose?” This is the ridiculous point at the heart of any argument dealing with the mixing of our values and any kind of public policy.
If you aren’t imposing your own beliefs or your own values… whose values are you imposing? And why are you allowed to impose those? But not your own?
See, in this case, the leaders at Eastern Michigan were allowed to impose their own personal values. And the judge seemed to be imposing his own personal values as well in his decision. The only person that couldn’t impose their own personal values in all of this was the Christian who listened to her more correctly developed conscience.
A total circus.
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Given that there is nothing about sexuality that is not ideological, and, consequently, devoid of moral terms, no one who disagrees with Ward’s beliefs is acting in such a “professionally ethical manner” either, because they are all imposing their (im)moral viewpoints to frame the counseling objectives and actual exercise thereof.
Thus, in a society which has normalized homosexuality, and posits this normalization against *morality* and *religion*, having both moral and religious frameworks for life or work is now deemed an offense, an injurious and wrongful position, when not a malpractice or a crime.
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The remediation program:
Lastly, on a side note, I think it is interesting that they didn’t recommend she attend a counseling section for people with a homosexual problem who do not want to have a homosexual problem, and are looking for a therapist to help them; nor homosexuals who infect others with AIDS by their irresponsible, promiscuous behavior; nor the significant number of homosexuals who sexually harass or engage in domestic violence; nor the ones who abuse adolescents; nor the ones who exploit prostitution; nor the ones who produce pornography, as a few examples.
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Did she not know the policies of the University she was enrolling in?
It is a complicated issue for sure, and I’m glad we have courts to sort them out because I know I’m certainly not qualified. She certainly has some constitutional protections for the exercise of her faith. But EMU also has a right to set standards for awarding a degree, including standards about institutional ethics and personal suitability.
That said, I can’t let a bad analogy go unchallenged, Thorn. Counseling a couple on Christian values is not what a clinical counselor does, it’s what a pastor does. She wasn’t studying to offer moral or spiritual guidance but to take research tested knowledge and apply it to her clients lives according to equally-research tested methodologies. None of that would ever include informing people about Christian values.
And typing that paragraph led me to a sudden idea. You can talk well about knowing when you’re the wrong person for a job, but shouldn’t that entail a career change? Know why I am not a Pastor? I would be lousy at it. Notice me knot suing the Harvard Divinity School to alter it’s curriculum to fit my personality and inability to alter my deeply entrenched personality traits. Maybe she should use the experience to consider whether she would be of better service to God in seminary, where she can counsel people on the moral issues that interest her and where she might actually show some aptitude.
But more to a personal point, and here I am just going to stick a barb in Roy’s outlandishly offensive “you’re not Christian enough because you’d offer counseling services to gay people and it’s you not me who’s wrong about Jesus because I said so” attitude: Up yours dude!
Sorry, not all of us have read the version of the good Samaritan where he stops over the beaten traveler and says, “Oh you know I have a bit of a problem with you, but here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to give you the name of my friend…and he’d be more than happy to put you on his mule, take you to an inn I wouldn’t be caught dead at, and nurse you back to health. It’s not you, it’s me. My beliefs would just make me bad at helping you! Just one sec…”
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17. Talk about a bad analogy.
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What is the different between reeducation camps and this idea of “remediation” program, the purpose of which was to help her “see the error of her ways.”
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But more to a personal point, and here I am just going to stick a barb in Roy’s outlandishly offensive “you’re not Christian enough because you’d offer counseling services to gay people and it’s you not me who’s wrong about Jesus because I said so” attitude: Up yours dude!
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Where did I say that?
What I stated was
“So Christian can not longer enrolled as a graduate student in the counseling program at Eastern Michigan University, because of their, Christian Faith.
I guess the only people who can apply are non-Christian and those who claim to be Christian but do not follow the teaching of God’s Word. “
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I based that view on the facts that Eastern Michigan University demand she takes a “remediation” program, the purpose of which was to help her “see the error of her ways.”
What was the error of her way?
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When she was assigned to counsel someone seeking help with a homosexual relationship, she realized it would be a violation of her Christian beliefs to do so.
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Why would it a violation of her Christian beliefs? Because IT IS a SEXUAL SIN. If she would have told that person and how they could get by turning to God. The School would have gone nuts, the GLBT Commuinty would have demand her to be thrown out or charged with a hate crime. So she did what she believe was best for her the person who was trapping in the Gay Life Stlye. She went to those above her who advise her to advised her to reassign the client.
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What kind of a policy imposes a single point of view and denies the expression of another?
This woman did the HONEST thing, something Redwal can’t understand. She told the truth and was punished for not thinking the “right” way. That’s a sick policy.
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That should have been the end of it. BUT NO, those in power decide she was the one who need reprograming, because how dare she believe someone trapped in the Gay Life Stlye is living in sin and the only hope is Jesus.
Now Redwal if you have a problem with me find, I do not care, If you can not respond to my comments without personal attacks.. Then do not respond to my comments at all. If I wanted to treat in a non-christian manner I would go to a non-christian site.
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sorry 23 should have read
Because IT IS a SEXUAL SIN. If she would have told that person that and how they could get HELP WAS by turning to God.
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The problem is the Far out of touch left has taken control of groups like “American Counseling Association’s ” They are ensuring that their views on the issues are the only views permitted.
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So, if the client says, “I’m attracted to little boys, but I seem to scare them. Could you help me work on being softer in my approach,” is the counselor ethically obligated to take the case?
OK, pedophilia is illegal; let’s substitute a man trying to seduce a married woman.
The idea that counselors should (or even can) set aside moral objections and simply deal with the person is repugnant. She should be able to counsel the man why seducing a married woman (or a man) is wrong, but since she can’t do that, saying “I can’t take your case” is a very reasonable, professional answer.
Guess what, people, this year I chose not to edit a book that was assigned to me after I saw the subject matter (the book title that was given to me wasn’t the actual title)–in the real world sometimes people do those things, and it’s perfectly ethical and perfectly professional.
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Looks like a SET-UP to me.
Sometimes I think they seek out people they know are Christians to challenge their beliefs about homosexuality.
Getting her expelled is probably why the homosexual couple were there in the first place.
Liberals DEMAND “tolerance” for THEIR BELIEFS, how about tolerance for someone else’s beliefs.
Plenty of doctors refer people.
If this is as INNOCENT as they say, then the “couple” would have been happy to have been referred to someone with that particular expertise.
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She doesn’t believe in homosexual marriage.
What’s wrong with her. She is a hater.
That’s why she became a counselor.
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“That said, I can’t let a bad analogy go unchallenged, Thorn. Counseling a couple on Christian values is not what a clinical counselor does, it’s what a pastor does. She wasn’t studying to offer moral or spiritual guidance but to take research tested knowledge and apply it to her clients lives according to equally-research tested methodologies. None of that would ever include informing people about Christian values.”
Really? That so?
What is “research tested knowledge”?
http://fathersforlife.org/dale/childhood_of_homosexual_men_2.htm
She doesn’t have to get all moral or christian on them.
“You can talk well about knowing when you’re the wrong person for a job, but shouldn’t that entail a career change?”
What? So if a coach doesn’t fit the Rutgers football system, he should just drop coaching altogether?? Perhaps there’s a better fit at another school. How many coaches have not succeeded in one place, only to succeed in another?
Recognizing you aren’t the person for the job, is a sign of maturity. Whether it is for religious reasons or even just inexperience, there is nothing wrong with passing on areas that you aren’t the right fit for.
This is an ethics concern in engineering. I as a professional shouldn’t take projects I have not spent much time studying on. In other words, I don’t jump into Electrical Engineering because it’s not my expertise. I would jump into environmental.
It has nothing to do with needing a career change.
And your misuse of the Good Samaritan is appalling. No one is dying here, and if the Good Samaritan happens to have a doctor ready, then yes, he’d be the best person to take him too to get this banged up man help. If you don’t know CPR it is dangerous to give it yourself. If someone knows to do it better than you is present then you let them do it.
This woman, has other counselors to defer to, who are possibly better suited for a homosexual case in a public university.
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No counselor has an obligation to work with a client that they don’t believe they can help. All manner of social and medical sciences are made up of specialists. That is what referral is all about.
I have had initial interviews with dozens of prospective clients where I sensed it was prudent to refer them to someone more capable than me. It would not only be professional, but a very responsible thing to do so as not to waste a clients time and prospects for resolution of their problems.
The University made a conscious decision to single out one aspect of the counselor training over another to facilitate their agenda. I would not want to be trained in an institution which insisted that I walk lock step with an agenda over using plain professional and/or common sense.
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Just wondering…are Christian taxpayers supporting this college/university in some manner?
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“So, if the client says, ‘I’m attracted to little boys, but I seem to scare them. Could you help me work on being softer in my approach,” is the counselor ethically obligated to take the case?
OK, pedophilia is illegal; let’s substitute a man trying to seduce a married woman.”
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We cannot have a productive discussion about ethics in this particular industry if some people are going to insist on being willful ignorant of a councilor’s actual job description.
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“And your misuse of the Good Samaritan is appalling. No one is dying here…”
Seriously?! Be advised people, if you recite the parable of the farmer sewing his seeds in good earth to Thorn at some later date…you’d better be prepared to actually plant something!
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Toobizy It does not matter as long as the left has control of groups like “American Counseling Association’s ” They are going to push the GLBT Community and other different sexual behavior as beig normal.
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Oh and, Thorn, NARTH research? Really?! And yes…it does cite George “Rent Boy” “Luggage Lifter” Rekers!
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Redwal, a counselor’s (note correct spelling) job description isn’t at issue here; the article said the client was “someone seeking help with a homosexual relationship” and therefore my parallel cases were apt.
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“Seriously?! Be advised people, if you recite the parable of the farmer sewing his seeds in good earth to Thorn at some later date…you’d better be prepared to actually plant something!”
What? Yes, you should actually have to plant something if you expect anything to grow.
“We cannot have a productive discussion about ethics in this particular industry if some people are going to insist on being willful ignorant of a councilor’s actual job description.”
You are being willfully ignorant of any professional position. You do not take cases, jobs, or positions outside of your expertise. Her OWN SUPERVISOR told her to have it reassigned.
From the ACA code of ethics:
A.11.b. Inability to Assist Clients
If counselors determine an inability to be of professional assistance to clients, they avoid entering or continuing
counseling relationships. Counselors are knowledgeable about
culturally and clinically appropriate referral resources and suggest these alternatives. If clients decline the suggested
referrals, counselors should discontinue the relationship
She has only acted according to actual ethical and professional conduct!!!
“Oh and, Thorn, NARTH research? Really?! And yes…it does cite George “Rent Boy” “Luggage Lifter” Rekers!”
You hit cntrl F and find the ONE reference to Rekers? He’s not the author of the article. He’s mentioned from one research paper against about 7 others.
Can’t address the fact that lack of a father plays a role to some degree in homosexual sons can you?
You ad hominemm and you raise strawmen.
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Now don’t be cruel, Thorn. Strawmen may be the only men whose wits some folk can best. Don’t take that away from ‘em.
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#7 Polish Bear “Why would someone as judgmental as Julea Ward want to be a professional counselor to begin with?”
Should counselors never use judgement?
“Anyone who does counseling knows the three central counseling concepts: 1: Focus on the feelings on your client.”
The definition of a bad counselor is someone who merely listens to feelings rather than solving the problem.
For example, if a student feels bad about his grades, then it is not merely the counselors role to sympathize, but to objectively point out some issues, like lack of discipline and the need to develop some study skills.
If an adulterer came to a counselor for help with her relationship, the counselor should have enough judgement to recognize that the entire premise is wrong from the start and will produce nothing good.
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Remember the story of Micaiah who counseled Ahab and Jehoshaphat in 1 Kings 22? Four hundred prophets counseled them the same way, telling them what they wanted to hear. But Jehoshaphat asked whether there were any other prophets. Ahab said there was one, but he hated him because he never told him anything good.
Micaiah came out and told him to go to battle because everything will be great! Then Ahab said, “How many times do I have to tell you to speak only the truth.” Then Micaiah said, “Ok, you’re gonna die!” And so it was …
The world today only wants bad counselors who tell people what they want to hear and prescribe mind altering drugs. What the world needs is honest counselors like Julea Ward who tells the truth. But the world hates people like that.
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Redwal 10.07.11 AT 2:24 PM
Did she not know the policies of the University she was enrolling in?
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I would imagine she know the policies as much as any other student, which is to say, how much can one really know about every single policy nuance in any given school?
What she didn’t know is that she didn’t have a right to a public education, for which she is perfectly qualified for. Neither did she know that the school she was enrolling in had corrupt practices towards their students, and that ethics and morals are not allowed in their counseling curriculum. Nor did she know that freedom of conscience and speech are not part of this school policies. It is up to the school to announce that in their mission statement, not for her to guess.
What one considers “best for the client” is completely subjective. Julea Ward was doing what was best for the client as set forth in the policy rules.
What would have been best for the client is that she counsel them according to her moral framework of social work, but since this is not allowed, she is FORCED to recuse herself. It is therefore absurd to blame HER for the recusal.
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Segelstein seems to miss the point here. Ward had enrolled in an ACA-accredited program. To be able to graduate from an ACA-accredited program, students must demonstrate an ability to counsel subjects in a manner consistent with the ACA Code of Ethics. If Ward believes that she can’t do that, then she should never have enrolled in an ACA-accredited counseling program. There are plenty of counseling programs that aren’t accredited by the ACA. Ward could have chosen to enroll in any of those programs. She didn’t. The university should not be faulted because of its unwillingness to forsake its accreditation to create an exception for one student.
I note that Segelstein’s article perpetuates several factual errors.
First, Ward’s dismissal had nothing to do with general university policies. She was dismissed because of her violation of program-specific policies–policies that were adopted so as to comply with ACA standards. The record at the district court was clear: If Ward had not violated ACA guidelines, she would not have been dismissed from the program.
Second, Ward never proffered any evidence that anyone tried to change her religious beliefs. She asserted as much in her briefing, but, as Judge Steeh noted, she proffered no evidence to support this assertion.
In conclusion, this seems like much ado about nothing. If Ward’s argument prevails, then no state university could offer an ACA-accredited counseling program, as the university would need to make exceptions for students who refuse on religious grounds to conduct themselves professionally in a manner consistent with ACA guidelines. And what about AMA guidelines governing the practice of medicine? I’d guess that those guidelines are at odds with the religious beliefs of Christian Scientists. Should an AMA-accredited state-run medical school be forced to forsake its accreditation so as to accommodate students who may be Christian Scientists?
It seems that in evangelicals’ rush to claim victim status in this charade, they’ve again failed to think through this issue with care.
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I would also note that World Magazine seems to have a habit of reporting on these kinds of cases in a sloppy way. The author of the article simply repeats the arguments made by ADF or other such organizations, and never bothers to address obvious counterarguments.
For example, World Magazine prominently featured the case of Mike Adams, a UNC-Wilmington professor who alleged that the university discriminated against him because of his conservative beliefs. WorldMag’s article made it sound like the district court had completely and utterly railroaded Dr. Adams. But I don’t recall seeing any follow-up articles–articles reporting on how a conservative panel of the Fourth Circuit largely affirmed the district court’s findings.
Is World Magazine concerned about reporting the truth? Or is it just concerned with perpetuating some false myth that evangelical Christians are some kind of victimized class. Most Americans couldn’t care less about whether people are evangelicals or not: We just want people to mind their own business, keep their opinions to themselves, and keep their nose to the grindstone. If you have time to yap about your religious beliefs, then you have too much time on your hands. The Bible is clear: Six days of the week are to be devoted primarily to our jobs (i.e., making money). The seventh day is to be devoted largely to worship. In my estimation, if you are a Christian, that leaves little time to be chattering about abortion, gay marriage, etc. Get back to work!
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so am i to understand that if someone feels extremely racist toward blacks they should be allowed to defer all black cases to other counselors. or muslim counselors should be able reject all jewish clients. should this be the standard for our counseling institutions?
homosexuality has been deemed legal. one’s religious freedom ends where it intrudes on the equal protection of another. to do otherwise is to enforce a particular religions beliefs over our basic civil rights of equality and violate our understandings of seperation of church and state.
julia has the right to not be a counselor because she cannot uphold the instution’s standards.
i find it interesting that blacks after having been severely persecuted because of an extreme understanding of lev(take slaves from the surrounding countries…..”) would on the whole embrace an extreme understanding from the same biblical book about a different verse to persecute someone else.
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#44 Evan, Let’s say the school guidelines were that no blacks are allowed to enroll. Should everyone just roll over and accept them just because they are guidelines?
In this case, the guidelines are that no Christians can enroll (at least none who follow the Bible). The school is under no obligation to enforce these rules. It does so because it is pushing a particular agenda and no dissent is allowed.
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Evan, this is ridiculous, especially from someone who has identified himself as a Christian.
If you have time to yap about your religious beliefs, then you have too much time on your hands. The Bible is clear: Six days of the week are to be devoted primarily to our jobs (i.e., making money). The seventh day is to be devoted largely to worship. In my estimation, if you are a Christian, that leaves little time to be chattering about abortion, gay marriage, etc. Get back to work!
For some of us, writing IS our work. And claiming some sort of demand that Christians not talk about our faith, or about moral standards, is quite contrary to Christianity. Our main jobs on this planet are faith-related: worshiping God, making disciples (especially of one’s own family). Yes, we are also to work for a living, but nowhere does Scripture say that working for pay is the only legitimate work. Housework and interacting with other people (e.g., writing on a blog) are also legitimate work, though unpaid.
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This case highlights a broader problem with our public education system which only allows one point of view on any controversial issue. Accreditation is a mechanism for enforcing one view and eliminating dissent.
Our future teachers are being asked to set critical thinking aside on a variety of issues, like global warming, evolution, child rearing, sexuality, history, politics and so on…
Enforcing one view would be tolerable if that one view were actually true. Unfortunately American students are being forced to accept and promote things which are not true merely to graduate.
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Xion, “enforcing” isn’t tolerable even if that viewpoint is true, unless you mean factually true (3×3=9 being the only acceptable answer on a test). Frightening, though, isn’t it, that in our lifetime we’ve gone from culturally knowing homosexuality is wrong but tolerating it in private to not even tolerating that some people believe it is wrong. Will pedophilia and incest and public sexual activity go the same way in our lifetimes?
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Cheryl,
I believe that proselytizing by non-ordained persons is a sin. All of the Bible’s commends concerning evangelism are directed to apostles. As a layperson, my job is to pray and pay. If I do more, it is a sinful usurpation of the role of ordained clergy.
Also, I believe that God is sovereign. As the church duly performs the means of grace (e.g., preaching Christ, offering communion, and baptizing infants), God will surely call His sheep into the fold. Those who don’t come are not His sheep.
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Evan, “proselytizing by non-ordained persons is a sin”??!!
To begin with, show me from Scripture that such a thing as “ordination” is required at all. (I don’t think it’s forbidden, but a distinction between ordained and non-ordained is certainly not given.) Second, I need to see from Scripture where witnessing is forbidden to those who are not ordained (which must be the case for it to be a sin).
Is a mother not allowed to “proselytize” her own child, for example? What does one then do with commands to be constantly teaching one’s children?
I’ve never heard this said before, and find it an amazing statement.
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In this case, the guidelines are that no Christians can enroll (at least none who follow the Bible). The school is under no obligation to enforce these rules.
So, the school does not have a right to utilize guidelines derived by a competent professional organization? The school must allow Muslims who hate Christians, Christians who hate Muslims, homosexuals who hate Christians, men who hate women, women who hate men etc to all join its ranks of counselors and decline any client they wish to?
Like I said, it’s an interesting issue.
Contrast your position (secular employers must accommodate any viewpoint however vaguely derived from a religion) to the position of the church in the recent teacher-firing case. That position is basically that churches are privileged employers who can hire and fire at will.
All one needs to do is mask one’s predilections or prejudices behind a cross or star or pentagram and all other civil authority and all of anyone else’s rights disappear like magic.
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“The school must allow Muslims who hate Christians, Christians who hate Muslims, homosexuals who hate Christians, men who hate women, women who hate men etc to all join its ranks of counselors and decline any client they wish to? ”
Where in this incident was there anything about anyone who hated anyone? If someone hated homosexuals, she’d be more likely to counsel them to stay in a relationship she believed was harmful to them.
Really, if all you can do is play the “hate” card on an issue like this, you might as well wave a white flag and wear a shirt that says “I lost.”
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#53 “So, the school does not have a right to utilize guidelines derived by a competent professional organization? “
Certainly. The ACA is not a competent professional organization and schools have a right to promote their political agenda. It just doesn’t make for good education.
Well, obviously the university doesn’t follow its own guidelines since it does not tolerate different points of view. Furthermore, how good will “valueless” counseling be? If the only thing counselors are allowed to do is listen, then one could speak to a rock or wall and receive advice which is just as meaningful. This is just bad education. Public education always becomes political.
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There is perhaps a third solution to the dilemna facing Christian counselling. Let it come from the church as outlined in Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus.
The secular counselling courses contain a lot of physchology which is directly contradictory to Scripture. Can we really permanently help people with such methods? Should we use them?
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I think Christians/conservatives need to act together in this case. Conservatives need to contact the media, university officials, politicians. It’s all well and good to discuss the matter, but once the arguments for defending Ward have been elaborated, it’s time to act.
The reason this Social Work faculty is acting in this discriminatory way towards Ward is because liberals face little pressure or consequences when harassing, repressing or discriminating against Christians.
The pressure on liberals must be put and maintained. And that means taking action about each of these cases. Highlighting the issue in the public arena is as important as the legal fight.
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I believe the culture war has been well and truly lost. As believers we can do what damage control we can, but I place no real faith in our ability to ever reclaim our culture. This seems scriptural to me, as well as patently obvious by merely looking around.
If the Lord Jesus is to return, the prophecies in His Word must come to pass. Had the church fought this battle at the beginning of the 20th century…well, pointless to speculate, really.
But, poor Julea…a remediation program??? Thought Police is just the beginning, I’m afraid.
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I think Phos hit the nail on the head. A Christian who truly upholds the Bible as the truth and as having all the answers for life will struggle with almost every aspect of a secular psychology curriculum. Someone truly wanting to help people from the foundation of their Christian faith should look at Biblical Counseling.
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I don’t think this woman was treated fairly by the university. She shouldn’t have to deny the tenets of her faith in order to get her degree. Doctors have a conscience clause, why can’t counselors?
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Re:#51 Evan, What???
Since there are no apostles around today, who’s supposed to be spreading the gospel? I am not ordained, but I’m a missionary. In your view, am I sinning? I’m with Cheryl. I’d like to see the Scripture to support your view that only the ordained should be sharing their faith. Come on over to Whirled Views and tell us about it.
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“If Ward believes that she can’t do that, then she should never have enrolled in an ACA-accredited counseling program. There are plenty of counseling programs that aren’t accredited by the ACA. Ward could have chosen to enroll in any of those programs. She didn’t.”
Ward still ethically and professionally handled the situation according to the ACA code of ethics. Perhaps you should read them!
“If Ward had not violated ACA guidelines, she would not have been dismissed from the program.”
She didn’t. Violation here would have been taking a case that she knew she should not handle.
Therefore, your whole argument is in error.
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I’m a little more concerned with the fact that we can’t agree on what a parable is then with anything that could happen to this woman, who seems let to lose any legal challenge she starts (and I for one am willing to let the courts have their say rather than assert I’m right and everyone else is wrong). So quick survey: Who thinks the parable of the good Samaritan is about 1 specific situation regarding injured travelers? Who here thinks the parable of the farmer sewing seeds in good soil is primarily practical advice for farmers?
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“I’m a little more concerned with the fact that we can’t agree on what a parable is…”
By “we” you mean yourself right? Cause I’m pretty sure everyone else here will agree on what a parable is.
“So quick survey: Who thinks the parable of the good Samaritan is about 1 specific situation regarding injured travelers? Who here thinks the parable of the farmer sewing seeds in good soil is primarily practical advice for farmers?”
Strawman.
I never said it was limited to a specific situation. Nor did anyone else.
But you have failed to show how this situation with Ms. Ward is reflective of either of those parables.
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Thorn – That parable has nothing to do with Ms. Ward. Ms. Ward case is all about the GLBT Commuinty being promoted as being normal.
Think about the out cry if she would have spoken to the person an counseled from the Christian View Point.
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the parable of the good Samaritan is all about taken care of someone regardless of who they are.
Ms. Ward case is about understand that she could not help that person and she follow the direction of those above her by requesting that someone else handle it.
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Oh the joys of selective reading and confirming our own biases! Where oh where do you get “understand[[ing]] that she could not help that person” out of the actual article text, which is “she realized it would be a violation of her Christian beliefs to do so”?!
Let’s put aside that you and I will not agree on whether the Bible call on Christians in social services to deny services to homosexuals; she still in no way made this judgement call based on her ability.
Now maybe she had the right to do that and maybe she didn’t. That’s a question for the courts.
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Redwal,
I take it (correct me if I’m wrong) that you mean she had the ability to give advice that she personally considered wrong, but chose not to put herself in that position.
Do you think that you would find it helpful to get advice from a counselor if you got the feeling that the counselor personally thought the advice was misguided? Maybe a counselor can hide that personal bias, but would you want to go to a counselor who gave advice that she thought was morally wrong and hid that fact?
I think someone who is dealing with sensitive personal issues and helping a person change attitudes and behaviors regarding interpersonal relations needs to have integrity, which includes not giving advice that the counselor personally believes to be wrong.
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Any decent person simply denounces Eastern Michigvan U, in no uncertain terms and in no time. They are as wrong as they are evil. But too many leftists (at EMU, on this thread, and elsewhere treasure their self-righteous bigotry far too much to see straight enough to just denounce this evil straight up.
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Conscience? What is that? There is only what liberals tolerate and what liberals do NOT tolerate. That’s it. Get with the program and stop thinking that humans have choices or consciences. In fact, stop thinking that we are human.
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“Oh the joys of selective reading and confirming our own biases!”
Talking about yourself eh?
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“Now maybe she had the right to do that and maybe she didn’t. That’s a question for the courts.”
As a professional, in any field, it is against ethics to take any case or job that you do not feel appropriate or qualified to do.
If she does not specialize in homosexual couples, it is well within ethics to pass the case along.
There was NO denial of service by the college. She asked the SUPERVISOR on what to do and it was recommended to reassign the case, not deny service.
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Pauline BY Pauline 10.11.11 AT 10:08 PM
“Do you think that you would find it helpful to get advice from a counselor if you got the feeling that the counselor personally thought the advice was misguided? ”
Excellent question! And the answer is obviously no. Building onto this very necessary premise for honesty in a counselor, please see the comments on the site below, about the legal implications of have an accreditation which will actively forbid people of a certain religion to be accredited to a profession.
http://www.all-things-in-moderation.com/2011/10/eye-on-courts.html
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The code explicitly does not require counselors to put aside their values. It explicitly provides for referrals. The ACA’s brief is a work of artful evasion but as much as admits this.
Even if the code were written explicitly to forbid counselors to decline to counsel about homosexual relationships, moreover, that would simply confirm to me not only its patently violative nature when enforced by the state but its fundamentally totalitarian nature. When I read the ACA’s brief, I am struck that anyone can read it let alone write it without finding it chilling. The import of its position and the university’s is that anyone who holds to traditional moral positions about homosexuality, and will not ignore or renounce them, is barred from a licensed profession.
Here supervising professor literally interrogated her and attempted to force her to renounce her religious belief (which of course he misunderstands and misconstrued). She was subjected to “remediation” of her religious beliefs. That is literally what happened here: she was required satisfactorily to undergo “remediation” of her religious beliefs as a condition to remaining a student in good standing.
I’m sorry but this is indeed fundamentally totalitarian ideology. If the ACA wants to be a private organization with its own code of ethics, that’s fine, but if it wants to have an officially sanctioned role in state action leading to professional licensing, then its own religious intolerance is the problem and a violation of the 1st Amendment.
I also want to note that, as is virtually always the case in these cases, the ACA and university are represented by some of the wealthiest and high-powered lawyers in the country. Often they do it for free. While this lonely student is represented by good but always underfunded public interest lawyers.
When conservative Christians say their faith is under seige in the public square, it is no joke.
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Alessandra
http://socimages.blogsome.com/2011/10/07/julea-ward-case-moves-to-court-of-appeals/
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