The Occupiers and the national divide
Much of what divides Americans along the political spectrum from left to right comes down to disagreement over the proper role of government. You can see it also in New York’s Zuccotti Park, where people have been “occupying Wall Street” in recent weeks.
While the Occupy Wall Street movement shares some common ground with Tea Partiers (neither group likes the bank bailouts), it is the role of government that separates the two. Provoked initially by spending and bailouts by the Bush administration that then ballooned under President Obama, the Tea Party is focused on cutting government spending and lowering the national debt. Behind that concern is a desire to return to our constitutional principles of limited government with enumerated powers.
Occupy Wall Street is a less disciplined, more diffuse protest. Of course, the name itself, “Occupy Wall Street,” and the place of occupation, a small park in New York’s financial district, point to one particular irritancy: the business of business in America (though no one is protesting record profits at Apple Inc. and high prices for the new iPhone 4S). Alongside this we find the usual left-wing calls for big government salvation and utopian global sweetness: universal government healthcare, shutting down Gitmo, pulling the troops home from everywhere, canceling debts at home and abroad, etc., etc.
In their “working groups” on various topics of moral and political concern, the Occupiers have been trying to figure out what “a just economy” is, as though they are the first ever to ask this question. Ah, youth. A young man at the protest, in an interview by Jim Wallis of Sojourners, claimed, “This is a microcosm of what people want the world to look like, where we have healthcare, where everyone gets fed, and where the people own the media.”
The Tea Party, with its orientation toward limited government, lined up behind the Republican Party in 2009 and 2010, but in the process it transformed the party, pulling it to the right. Will Occupy Wall Street have the same transformative effect on the Democratic Party, but without the electoral success?
President Obama and his party are understandably of two minds on the movement. They like its energy and they would like to harness it to pull the Democratic Party out of their present ditch for the 2012 election. For this reason, many Democratic politicians, including the president, have publicly identified with the Occupiers. “We are on their side,” Obama told ABC News. In a way this is a natural fit. The Wall Street Occupiers are soul mates in their preference for government solutions. The discomfort comes from the far-from-Main-Street appearance of the protesters and the possibility of violence from the farthest left agitators among them. Pollster Douglas Schoen reports that, “nearly one-third (31 percent) would support violence to advance their agenda.” So much for liberal constitutionalism. And no echoes of the Tea Party in that sentiment.
There is a more serious concern for the Democrats politically and for the country culturally in this wedding of Occupy Wall Street with the Democratic Party: It will further radicalize the division in our country between the Friends of ’76 viewpoint of standing by our founding political tradition of limited government and the 20th century progressive vision of benevolent, centralized, technocratic oversight of all things.

















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back to top83 Comments to “The Occupiers and the national divide”
Well, if government bailouts work, why are we still in this mess? If government programs work, why are we still in this mess?
Have these people missed the point that we are broke because of government spending money it doesn’t have?
Oh, I forgot. Let’s tax the super-rich and all this will what? Go away?
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” Pollster Douglas Schoen reports that, “nearly one-third (31 percent) would support violence to advance their agenda.””
Yet, this goes UNREPORTED in the press.
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DO not forget these people are against Israel and for Muslim Terrorists.
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I think President Obama is of one mind about the movement.
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This is what we get for electing a “community organizer” (political agitator) with little experience in anything else.
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“The discomfort comes from the far-from-Main-Street appearance of the protesters and the possibility of violence from the farthest left agitators among them.”
Do you think the Ayers sympathizer in Chief is really uncomfortable with the violent left? ;-?
The only thing Obama would be uncomfortable with is not getting re-elected…
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;-?
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Hmmmm…
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That’s better.
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MAKE IT MAN,
You made me smile!!!
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“Pollster Douglas Schoen reports that, “nearly one-third (31 percent) would support violence to advance their agenda.”
Liberals only oppose violence perpetrated by non-liberals (c.f. the French Revolution). Jimmy Carter wrote in his book that terror is a legitimate means to achieve political ends.
If you listen to CNN today you will hear the same question over and over. Now that we’ve killed Qaddafi, is Syria next? Will Obama just go around killing everyone he doesn’t like?
Few are protesting Obama’s illegal war or the fact that he has been assassinating people around the world, including an American citizen. Liberals don’t mind that he set up a Star Chamber of people called Principals who have created a “kill list”. They don’t mind that he wants warrantless tracking of all cell phones or reading private emails.
When liberals are in power, laws are no longer needed, since they are the law.
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Douglas Schoen is a Democrat pollster. That’s why most of the media are ignoring that finding of his. I mentioned his article in the WSJ the other day. It has been widely quoted and referred to on conservative websites. His article might still be available on the public (free) side of the WSJ’s website.
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Interesting, though I don’t think you could possibly do a truly random sampling of a large crowd by person to person interviews. Going down to the street engages people by a micro-geography. His sample isn’t random. And even if it were, his sample is small. 198 people means he has at 95% confidence interval (and granted the benefit of the doubt on a truly random sample) and margin or error ranging from 6% to 10%.
He sample is even less random if you consider that he’s only talking to people at Wall Street. As Nate Silver pointed out, the actual number of Occupy Protesters gives the movement a Westward slant. There are more protesters in offshoot protests in the Western US than in the Eastern and way more in the West than actually at Wall Street.
It’s not a good poll, and that might contribute to the decision of the WSJ to run this that story in its opinion section!
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More WSJ analysis on the poll >> http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/19/who-is-occupying-wall-street-a-pollster-surveys-protester/?KEYWORDS=DOUGLAS+SCHOEN
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13. I was under the impression that there were only a few hundred people there. If that is the case than 198 is a bigger percentage than you’d normally see in such a poll. Even if there were a 1000 20% is a large sampling.
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Many commentators on the right make the mistake of evaluating or judging the occupy movement within their own view of the political spectrum ie free market vs gov’t intervention. Although it makes the debate fairly simple its not a very accurate description especially when discussing the views of the OWS.
Many in the Occupy movement are not liberals nor traditional American leftist; they are anarchist. Many view the gov’t as an instrument of corporate power. In that way, the Democratic party is not a natural fit with the Occupy movement or at least less a fit than the tea party with the Republican party. Of course, the more cynical of us might point to this as evidence that the tea party was mere astroturf design to rebuild the Republican base.
The fear mongering of a violent turn is just that, fear mongering. Violent rhetoric is a common feature of the American political landscape. The tea party types had cross hairs, second amendment remedies and protestors who were “carrying”. Ironically for all their rhetoric both the American right and left are less likely to resort to violence than their European counterparts where street battles between the right and left are almost ritual-like.
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Yeah, I wouldn’t trust a person by person poll, but I also did not brand the whole Tea Party as racist by the actions of one or two.
But that does bring into strong relief the problem with OWS, how can you quantify success if no one can articulate what basic purpose.
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Yet the Democratic Party and its leaders APPLAUD and SUPPORT the Occupy movement.
Is defecating on police cars part of the American political landscape? You support that, too?
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The Democratic Party is not a natural fit? THEY HAVE EMBRACED, APPLAUDED and SUPPORT these people.
Defecating on a police car — you also support and make excuses for that, too?
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NJL Yes but the embrace is not mutual nor reciprocated. The Democrats would love to incorporate the energy of the OWS but I’m not sure they will succeed.
Defecating on a police car?? I’ll have to google that. I’m truly amused and don’t see it as a violent act. I neither support or criticize such acts.
Adios
Its a myth that the 99%/OWS have no aims or goals. They seek to restructure the financial system and decouple corporations and government.
However, its anarchist structure ensures that the media can’t use a 15 second soundbite to summarize them.
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so i googled it … newspapers have really lost touch with prepositions — he was defecating beside the car not on. Are we sure he was involved with the protests and not just some random person?
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Honestly, these protests are silly. I’d guess that most of the protesters are trust-fund kids who have no need to work and are simply bored. It’s a bit laughable to hear spoiled adolescents bearing iPhones and clad in patagonia gear describe themselves as suffering from economic injustice.
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The OWS’ers will dwindle, at least in northern climes as Winter comes on.
But this Spring could get interesting. I won’t be surprised if there are a couple of deaths as they and the better armed TP’ers or perhaps even some Southern constabularies clash.
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Teaparty vs OWS?
The teaparties were LEGAL rallies that lasted a few hours, were cleaned up afterwards and the members when back to work and families.
OWS? You describe them!
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“the better armed TP’ers”
Where do you come up with this? Did I miss all the violence reported in the rallies?
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Pelosi has embraced these people, HRW. So has Obama. You just can’t face up to it.
You’re even making excuses for someone defecating in public.
What does it take for you to open your eyes??????
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The media can always figure out how to use a 15 second clip for everything else but these people?
Really?
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And be HONEST for once. The media went up to individual Tea Partiers and played the silliest ones and showed the signs of the the strangest. Not so here.
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So we’re defending anarchists now?
Oh boy…
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Becoming like the people they’re protesting:
All occupiers are equal – but some occupiers are more equal than others. In wind-whipped Zuccotti Park, new divisions and hierarchies are threatening to upend Occupy Wall Street and its leaderless collective.
It began, as it so often does, with a Drum Circle. The ten-hour groove marathons weren’t sitting well with the neighborhood’s community board, the ironically situated High School of Economics and Finance that sits on the corner of Zuccotti Park, or many of the sleep-deprived protesters.
THE ORGANIZERS VS. THE ORGANIZED IN ZUCCOTTI PARK.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/occupy_animal_farm_the_organiz.html?mid=twitter_DailyIntel
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#30 That’s an excellent article Louise. I love how the anti-authoritarians become the authoritarians.
Hayek’s book The Road to Serfdom explains perfectly how liberalism must always adopt the policies it protests, which your article demonstrates in microcosm. They protest for freedom, but free people won’t do what they want. So they must always fight against freedom, while speaking in its favor. Fascinating stuff!
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XION, as much as I’ve read about Hayek and that book, I’ve never made a point of reading it for myself. Thanks for the reminder. Have you ever read TRUE BELIEVER by Eric Hoffer. Another very bright man on the sociology/psychology of “Movements.” There really is nothing new. Mankind apart from God just keeps repeating itself.
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Defecation is amusing?
The article Louise posted says that these protestors are now pooping on porches.
Wouldn’t be very amusing if it was YOUR doorstep HRW. It might not be “violent” but it’s not something you see associated with decency…
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“Defecating on a police car?? I’ll have to google that. I’m truly amused and don’t see it as a violent act. I neither support or criticize such acts.”
I have a strong feeling that you would criticize if a t-partier had done it. I mean look how y’all all went ape over a little spittle.
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OWS, as opposed to the TEA party, appears to be a bunch of useful idiots at the hands of cummunity organizers causing pressure and threats and demonizing their target ‘villains’.
My ‘Best Education’ by William Dembski and Edward Sisson
The “community organizer” training Obama received in the mid-1980s, and that he continues to praise today as central to how he will govern if elected president, came from the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF)….“Obama the politician is a direct descendant of Obama the [IAF] organizer—that he has carried the practices and principles of community organizing into his campaign, and would carry them into the White House as well.”
…Rooney attended an IAF training session in July 1989, and he details what the standard IAF training included in the years that Barack Obama became an IAF organizer (1985 and 1986). Organizing the South Bronx reveals that the goals and strategies of Obama’s IAF include:
“There is no nice way to bring about change. All change comes through pressure and threats.” (p. 226)
“Increase militancy by polarizing the situation, by identifying the enemy, and by developing the situation in terms of good guys and bad guys.” (p. 89)
“It is absolutely essential to select a ripe target [a person] [or group] and build animosity toward him or her [or them].” (p. 228)
“A target has to be selected and mercilessly zeroed in on.” (p. 228)
The person selected is to be “targeted as a stock villain, a lackey of the corrupt political establishment.” (p. 228)
When a target has “become too shopworn to continue to light up anyone’s emotional switchboard,” it is necessary to choose new people to target “as action lightning rods.” (p. 228)
“All IAF organizers take huge delight in planning the drama of confronting authorities. Perhaps it is their ecclesiastical backgrounds, with its loving attention to rituals and ceremonies, but clearly their enthusiasm for the details and rich symbolism of staged events is irrepressible.” (p. 85)
[New York Mayor Koch:] “I had the feeling I was in some Nuremberg stadium. There was a military band. There were more than 1,000 people, chanting. They were thumping standards on the floor. It was like mass hysteria and very militant.” (p. 86) [Do we not see here a model for Obama’s Greek-columned, fireworks-enhanced stadium acceptance speech?....]
http://www.worldmag.com/webextra/14535
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NJL
I know Obama et al have embraced the OWS but the OWS movement has not embraced them back. In this way they differ from the tea party which was quickly incorporated into the PRepublican party with their consent.
He defecated into the curb — a little different than spitting in someone’s face. As for defecating on my doorstep; — never happened to mke but its not an uncommon halloween trick
MIM of course I defend anarchists I am one.
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HRW, please think more carefully about your biased sequencing of tea-party affiliations. Think about it, HRW, amd think about it some more at least over the weekend.
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XION and LOUISE,
You may want to download this free MP3 2hr-12 min audio recording of Fredric Bastiat’s The Law presented by the Ludwig Von Mises Institute.
http://mises.org/media/2648/The-Law
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36. I was right then.
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good vid here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0
“precious snowflakes” gotta love it
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Someone came up with a pretty ingenious little prank to play on this bunch. Print some leaflets of famous quotes from Mao Zedong, Adolf Hitler, Stalin and Lenin and hand them out for them to use as posters and signs. When they start chanting them give them a quick down an dirty on who said them so they’ll get a little insight on their ignorance and naivity.
Well, then again, some probably wouldn’t even be phased by it. The American Nazi party along with the American Communist party have shown up to support them. Now, amongst normal, decent citizens this would throw up a red flag. Shouldn’t it? I mean, if I found my self aligned with these model citizens I would seriously do some soul searching however none of the OWS crowd seem to mind their presence….hmmmmm. I guess birds of a feather flock together.
I can only imagine what’s going on through the minds of some of the elderly Jewish generations watching this lunacy. Some of them might be just old enough to remember or maybe even bare tattoos from some not so freindly camps they spent time in. I’m sure some of the anti-semitic sewage spark some fond memories of what started it all. Disgraceful, truly disgraceful!!! and they have a nerve to compare themselves to MLK’s famous march. What an outrage!!! MLK would have nothing remotely to do with this. MLK advocated equal rights not total neglect of one’s personal responsibilities or total disregard for the law or human decency. This is NOT the MLK march, but this is the message that lame stream media along with every other leftist aligned liberal broadcaster is trying to drive into folks through repitition.
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#16 HRW “Many commentators on the right make the mistake of evaluating or judging the occupy movement within their own view of the political spectrum ie free market vs gov’t intervention. Although it makes the debate fairly simple its not a very accurate description especially when discussing the views of the OWS.”
That is true, but I think you are also oversimplifying the political spectrum too. It becomes clear when viewed as a two dimensional grid rather than a line.
Draw a square and on the bottom put the words ‘Collectivism’ to the left and ‘Individualism’ to the right. On the left side, put ‘Centralized’ government on the top and ‘Decentralized’ on the bottom.
Now, begin placing these labels, beginning in the upper left and moving to the lower right: Communism, Socialism, Fascism Democratic party, Republican party (near the center), Conservatism, Tea Party, Classical Liberalism, Libertarianism (in the lower right).
Now it becomes clear how the Tea Party is related to OWS. They are both in the lower quadrants, OWS anarchists to the left (collectivist, decentralized) and Tea Party to the right (individualist, decentralized).
We can also see how OWS is related to the Democratic party, since they are both to the left, i.e. collectivist. The problem with all collectivists is highlighted in Louise’s article and in Hayek’s book and in the writings of Marx and Ayn Rand and many others:
Anarchists say they want decentralized authority, but must always become authoritarian in order to achieve their ends. Like Marx, they always say that their totalitarian methods will be temporary until the collectivist model is in place. But in practice, the authority never steps down and millions of people usually end up dead.
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#36 HRW “of course I defend anarchists I am one.
You call yourself a socialist and an anarchist. I assume that anarcho-socialism is similar to what the radical leftist Noam Chomsky calls himself, namely a Libertarian Socialist.
All leftists are collectivists. All leftists believe that the good of the many trumps the good of the few. The problem is that individuals are naturally selfish, so they will not willingly give up their freedom or property. This is why attempts to institute anarchism usually devolve into either mayhem or authoritarianism. In either case, freedom is forfeited.
Is there any way to achieve the goals of anarcho-socialism without using force?
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One reason it is difficult for socialists and capitalists to communicate is that they are arguing different things.
Socialism is outcome-based. It is about money. Fairness is when everyone has the same amount of money. Capitalism is not about money. It is about the freedom to earn money or not. Fairness is defined as everyone playing by the same rules regardless of the outcome.
Whereas anarchists and libertarians would agree about decentralization of power, socialists would say that they also want a decentralization of wealth. They want “wage equity” (i.e. everyone earns the same) and oppose “wage slavery” (i.e. people must work or starve). But the only way to achieve decentralization of wealth is to take it by force and redistribute it.
In rare cases, people may voluntarily join a commune or kibbutz and practice wealth equity. The early church did this and the Catholic church claims to do this now. The key word here is voluntarily. That is the only way that freedom and socialism can coexist.
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“And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.” (Zec 14:17-19)
Go up to “..unto Jerusalem to worship the King..” someday??
There’s just got to be some kind of protest that’ll work!!
Then again…
Maybe it’s in my best interests.
I think I’ll be sure my priorities are correct.
I like joy.
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HRW,
You claim you’re a Marxist, now you claim you’re an anarchist. These are at two ends of the civil government power spectrum from 100% totalitarianism to no civil govt. This is trying to mix oil with water…..it doesn’t conform to reality.
Would it be more accurate to say you are pro-anarchy causing abrasive friction of conflict which opens the door to mass dissonance and a mass cry for order followed by a white-knight-in- shining-armor [the new State] coming with the promise to restore order, but in a totalitarian fashion. Eventually, the utopian dream of the totalitarian regime disappears [which has never occurred] as everybody is fully equal and all conflict is ended; no more envy and covetousness and only total brotherly love for the benefit of one another.
Change means movement. Movement means friction. Only in the frictionless vacuum of a nonexistent abstract world can movement or change occur without that abrasive friction of conflict.
Saul Alinsky
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Lousie
The tea party might have started grassroots but look at the money trail reveals various lobbying groups at play — Americans for Prosperity and the Koch Bros to name a few. Whatever legitimacy the tea party may have had as a grassroots movement disappeared entirely when they co-sponsored a Republican debate with CNN. Can you imagine OWS and FOX co-sponsoring a debate??
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Xion
what you suggest has been done before check the website http://www.politicalcompass.org/
They have the tradition left/right for economic policy and an authoritarian/libertarian going from top to bottom.
Your description is skewed to the American political spectrum. Both the Democrats and Republicans belong to the right top quadrant (authoritarian) whereas Nader and Kusinich are in the left bottom quadrant.
Take the test they offer — I belong to the bottom left quadrant which makes me an anarcho-socialist (or to use the Spanish Civil War term, anarcho-syndicalist). This puts me next to Gandhi and the Dalai Llama. If you look carefully at the picture beside my initials its a cover of a limited edition of 1984 by Orwell. Orwell fought with the anarchists in Barcelona in the Spanish Civil War — read Homage to Catalonia. There’s a description of left wing anarchism without force.
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Capitalism is not about money.
Xion said a funny — the root word “capital” essentially means money.
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HRW, I can’t imagine those lazy, tin-cup-holding “occupiers” sponsoring any kind of civilized debate. Period. What a nonsensical question and what I would have previously considered beneath your logic and intelligence. And that is the 4th time you have made a typo of my name. My typos are not as consistent. How/Why do you do it?? Or do I really care. You do not play nice. I’m done.
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RWH
You confuse Marxism with Leninism.
You can be a Marxists and an anarchist despite the fact that Proudhon and Marx weren’t on good terms. Marxism makes prescient points on the nature of capitalism whereas anarchism is a prescriptive solution to these points. Leninism posits the necessity of force “dictatorship of proletariat” in order to establish socialism. Both Proudhon – anarchism and Bernstein – democratic socialism prescribe a different method which allows for freedom. The Nordic model has consistently shown that the latter two methods work and provide better outcomes than any capitalist ideology. So yes I’m both a marxist and anarchist. When in a more optimistic mood, I’ll be content with democratic socialism.
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HRW,
Marxism makes prescient points on the nature of capitalism whereas anarchism is a prescriptive solution to these points.
Curious commentary. Please enlighten me with some specifics between the two WRT the ten planks of the Marx’s communist manifesto. I see how Marxism does it through a totalitarian civil govt, but how is this done with each individual being his own government and no higher authority?
1.Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2.A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3.Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4.Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5.Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6.Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7.Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8.Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9.Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10.Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
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48 – Très intéressant , your link has my political compass set a quarter point to the left and bearing three points toward libertarian. This despite a very conservative view of sexuality, gender roles, and abortion. Such a test is perhaps useful in showing that those of all political views actually vary widely in their practical applications of said views.
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#48 HRW Xion “what you suggest has been done before check the website [political compass] They have the tradition left/right for economic policy and an authoritarian/libertarian going from top to bottom.”
I know. But they committed the mortal sin of defining something with the definition itself. They try to define left and right by simply declaring things left and right. My graph is far superior in that it gets to the essence of our differences.
“Your description is skewed to the American political spectrum. Both the Democrats and Republicans belong to the right top quadrant (authoritarian) whereas Nader and Kusinich are in the left bottom quadrant.”
The top right is authoritarian and individualistic. Both Democrats and Republicans in America are in the top left quadrant which is authoritarian and collectivist.
Take the test they offer — I belong to the bottom left quadrant which makes me an anarcho-socialist (or to use the Spanish Civil War term, anarcho-syndicalist). This puts me next to Gandhi and the Dalai Llama.
I have and I am in the lower right, i.e. a classical liberal favoring limited government and individualism. If you are non-authoritarian, then why do you support the centralized authority of European Socialism?
If you look carefully at the picture beside my initials its a cover of a limited edition of 1984 by Orwell. Orwell fought with the anarchists in Barcelona in the Spanish Civil War — read Homage to Catalonia. There’s a description of left wing anarchism without force.
I always wondered what the was. It looks like a dog. I just reread 1984 and did quite a bit of research on Orwell. You are right. However, one question Orwell and Chomsky and even yourself will never answer is the one we keep asking. Let me ask it again:
How can anarcho-syndicalism ever be achieved on a national level without force?
The goals of communism, socialism and fascism (which is just an Italian word for syndicalism), are essentially the same. They all want decentralized collectives to control the means of production. They differ mainly on the means of achieving the goal.
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#49 HRW “Capitalism is not about money. Xion said a funny — the root word “capital” essentially means money.
The distinction I was making is that socialism is all about money itself, i.e. who has it, how they got it and how much and so on. Socialism is about decentralizing wealth. Wealth disparity is evil. Wealth equity is good.
Capitalism is not about money itself, but about how it is earned. A capitalist has the right to be poor. It is agnostic about how much money you have. Capitalism is about the freedom to earn as little or as much money as you want. Having wealth or not is neither evil nor good. Evil or good have to do with whether it was earned legitimately.
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#51 HRW You say that Proudhon allowed some freedom (as opposed to socialists generally), but his theories on ownership highlight the irrationality of his position, which gets back to the same question we keep asking you.
Proudhon “strenuously rejected the ownership of the products of labor by society or the state”, but he held that all property should be held in common, i.e. by the state. “He argued that while society owned the means of production or land, users would control and run them (under supervision from society), with the “organising of regulating societies” in order to “regulate the market”.
In other words, anarcho-socialists strenuously oppose the thing that they strenuously support.
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53 Phos
From your comments on this site, I would place you as a an old school Red Tory in the mould of Bill Davis or Joe Clark. Twenty years ago, I vote PC for a Red Tory MP whose name escapes me (he was the MP for Waterloo during the first Mulroney administration). I voted NDP ever since. The present incarnation of the Conservative has very few Red Tories left in it.
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Xion
European socialism is far less totalitarian than you imagine. In temrs of social policy they are far more liberatarian than the US (no war on drugs, liberal abortion laws, less rules on sexual behaviour) and even in economic policy the Nordic model offers far greater income mobility than the Anglo-American model. If you ignore tax policy and health care, countries such as Canada and Denmark score high in terms of business friendly policies accroding to groups such as the Heritage Foundation.
The Democrats and Repulicans are not collectivists they are merely the tools of corporate America. In this way they resemble what Mussolini called fascism “the merger of corporations and government” which is of course entirely different from socialism and communism.
Xion — your comments in regards to Proudhon, anarchism and the policital compass all demonstrate a tendecy you have to define your terms or define someone else’s position and then based on your definition argue to your conclusion. This makes it hard to debate since your starting point is based on your end point.
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HRW,
Will you be able to answer my question in #52?????
Fascism really isn’t that much differnt from Marxism. They are just different ‘denominations’ out of the same religion. Ultimate control is with the state in either economic structure. Citizens, rather subjects, have their freedoms greatly reduced or eliminated in either system and those that don’t conform to the state’s philosophy are punished in almost identical fashion. Fascism, in fact, is heavily socialistic with it’s ‘overarching welfare’ programs to the state’s subjects.
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RWH
Not sure there was a question at least one I understood.
If you view the ideological world through a very narrow lens of gov’t power as it applies to the American political spectrum, then you might have a case but …… Fascism and socialism differ in about every other question — race, nationalism, ethnicities, corporations, military, unions, democracy, economics, etc. Even looking at their origins one as a conservative reaction to the French Revolution and the other as a response to capitalism you can see the difference.
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Maybe, if the occupiers publicly forgive Wall Street, like Solidarity forgave the Polish regime, Lech Walesa will change his mind again and come to Zuccoti Park after all.
Meanwhile, Walesa clearly believes that Wall Street is in need of correction. He told the AP:
. . .we need to change, reform the capitalist system . . more justice, more people’s interests, and less money for money’s sake . . We cannot accept a situation when capitalism is making huge money and then does not know what to do with it . . It should invest in new jobs . . . People are most important . . For now, capitalism is working to produce more money but does not see the people . . This problem is getting worse across the world.
http://online.wsj.com/article/APb6ba79d7a2c741ddb02b45462a3ad68e.html
These remarks drove Welesa’s right-wing financial backers into such a hissy fit that they forced Welesa to abandon his intention of visiting Wall Street.
Fortunately, it will be harder for the Koch Brothers to buy off the real Pope, who has expressed similar sentiments.
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/occupy-wall-street-pope-benedict-xvi-voices-support-of-movement/politics/2011/10/18/28736
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#58 HRW “European socialism is far less totalitarian than you imagine.”
Well, if you don’t hand over a majority your income to the state, people with guns come and haul you off to jail. But you are correct that America has far more business killing regulations than Europe. Regardless, you still aren’t answering the question.
Xion — your comments in regards to Proudhon, anarchism and the policital compass all demonstrate a tendecy you have to define your terms or define someone else’s position and then based on your definition argue to your conclusion. This makes it hard to debate since your starting point is based on your end point.
My comments about Proudhon were direct quotes from Proudhon himself. Regardless, I am still asking you to explain how to achieve anarcho-syndicalism without using force?
As for the political compass, why is it acceptable to define left and right by putting the words ‘left’ and ‘right’ on a chart and positioning people based on preconceived bias?
The reason you are finding it hard to debate is because we aren’t buying into your subjective biases. I am trying to push the conversation in an objective direction by getting terms and means out on the table. You are clinging to a leftist reconstruction of history where all atrocities in the world must have been committed by the right, even if those people had the same ideology as you.
You consider fascism to be right-wing corporatism, because you define it to be so. However, the pure philosophy of fascism is syndicalism, i.e. a society where the means of production is controlled by syndicates or labor unions. Hayek goes into great detail on this in his book Road to Serfdom if you should care to read it.
You refuse to discuss the principles and ideas behind the various political philosophies and economic systems. Rather you prefer to define a philosophy by the people who claimed it. If one socialists says he is to the right of another, you will call him right-wing, even if the two agree on essentially everything.
You do this with religion too, refusing to discuss the principles which define it, choosing rather to define a religion by the people who practice it. This is why we tend to talk past one another in our debates. Principles matter, but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to discuss them.
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Asking any political system to implement its form of order without the use of force is utopian, but social democracies do a good job of reducing the application of force and distancing the threat. Their cops are sometimes unarmed and very far away. They govern themselves by expectations of fairness, concessions of legitimacy, and respect for due process. Denmark had a civil war about as recently as we did, but emerged with a far less bellicose society.
INNES misinterprets social democrats when he suggests they are protesting against high profits and incomes. They don’t, for the most part. They advocate increased taxation and lower concessions for top incomes. This is different.
Social democrats are actually pro-business. They don’t advocate redistribution of wealth. They tax income — economic benefit — not wealth, the accumulated assets of that benefit. They merely want We The People to collect our fair franchise fees from the economic activity we sponsor and enable. This is a crucial distinction between social democrats and communists.
Social democrats have a pragmatic rationale and discipline for policy. The market will easily bear higher tax rates at the top, and government can return real value and prosperity.
Social conservatives don’t have to agree with social democracy just because it will make us all materially better off. They can still oppose it for religious reasons. But they should take a page from the Bible. God didn’t confound the builders of the Tower of Babel because of engineering flaws in the structure. He was honest enough to admit that He was offended at prideful ambition, not fearful of design flaws.
Social democracy is a tool. We have the Constitutional freedom to use it to improve our general welfare.
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At the base level almost all compex societies depend on the state monoploy of force — the huge police presence at OWS is an apt metaphor for the interaction of corporations and the executive power of the state.
Most social democracies rely on a far more “soft” power. There’s an unspoken bargain in which you pay taxes and in return are provided with a reasonable living standard, health, education, income mobility, public safety,etc. Whereas the Anglo-American version of capitalism has an almost similar level of taxiation and what does the average US citizen recieve in return — the security state with a military possessing the best toys. No wonder the IRS is far more coercive than the social democracies ministries of revenue.
As for the political compass, why is it acceptable to define left and right by putting the words ‘left’ and ‘right’ on a chart and positioning people based on preconceived bias?
Thats your objection to the politicalcompasss site?? You’re not even trying.
I am trying to push the conversation in an objective direction by getting terms and means out on the table.
No you are redefining the terms to meet your conclusions
Just because Hayek says fascism is socialism does not make it so. Arguing from authority doesn’t work if the authority isn’t accepted.
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#64 HRW “No you are redefining the terms to meet your conclusions”
I am not redefining terms. I am quoting people of a particular position and letting them define the terms. If I want to know what Marxism is, I quote Marx. If I want to know what fascism is, I quote fascists.
The problem with our debates, is that you refuse to come at a subject from principles. For example, you refuse to acknowledge that the Koran has anything substantive to say about Islam, rather you define Islam as what Muslims do.
Likewise you disregard everything fascists have ever said and define fascism by what Hitler actually did. But he did many things unrelated to economics and he barely got the ball rolling in terms of achieving the ultimate goal of fascism, which is by definition ’syndicalism’.
“Just because Hayek says fascism is socialism does not make it so. Arguing from authority doesn’t work if the authority isn’t accepted.”
You will accept no authority that does not match your conclusions.
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selective quoting
I don’t recall ever having a discussion with you on the nature of Islam. In any case, I think Islam is a plagerized version of Judiasm, Christianity and probably Zorastarianism.
Actually Hitler is a lousy example of fascism — if I ever defined fascism by its leader I would have used Mussolini and Franco. BTW, British conservatives were great admirers of Mussolini and how he dealth with radical unions, and Franco fighting against the socialist in the Spanish Civil War was later invited to join NATO.
On this site, I have consistently described fascism as a conservative reaction to the French Revolution (and its liberal and socialist ideology) — an attempt to maintain the ruling elite ie the aristocracy, the military, the church, etc while incorporating the new bougeois elite created by capitalism.
Syndicallism is simple an organizational term — in Italian fascism nationalist-syndicalism was promoted. The idea was that a natural aristrocratic elite was needed to rule over the proles who were being led astray by ignoble socialism. This was quite different from the anarchist version where the leadership was to come from below. And it speaks to the aristorcratic vision of fascism — a natural elite was to rule. An idea not too far from the minds of the corporate elite who have sought to intertwine the Congress, the corporations and the military.
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I don’t accept arguments from authority but I can be persuaded to change my mind if a logical argument presents itself or one argue from evidence.
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HRW,
Not sure there was a question at least one I understood.
You made a statement in #51 based on being both an anarchist and a Marxist and I commented in #52 with:
Curious commentary. Please enlighten me with some specifics between the two WRT the ten planks of the Marx’s communist manifesto. I see how Marxism does it through a totalitarian civil govt, but how is this done with each individual being his own government and no higher authority?
In other words, will anarchy achieve the 10 planks? Or is anarchy a transitory tool to put Marxism into place and complete the 10 planks?
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XION,
You are clinging to a leftist reconstruction of history where all atrocities in the world must have been committed by the right, even if those people had the same ideology as you…
What you have observed is foundational to the Frankfurt School. They set up a false premise after WWII that Fascism is at the opposite end of a make-believe spectrum from their Marxism. Then they demonized Fascism with the scare tactic of assuring the world their proposed changes have to take place so we don’t raise up another Hitler again. The traditional family, capitalism and the church have to be destroyed and cultural Marxism put in their place. In order for HRW to acknowledge this it will destroy his worldview. His worldview will always deny the truth of Fascism.
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Historical correction – Facism and communisim/Marxism were at the opposite ends of the political spectrum during the 1930s and World War II. The Nazis made a concerted effort to wipe out the communists. The Allies were shocked when Hitler and Stalin signed a pact, they knew the division between the two political ideologies. It came as no suprise to them when Germany attacked Russia. Communist orgnizations in France, Eastern Europ and Italy made important contributions to the resistance effort. It was a communist soldier who summarily executed Mussolini. My father always explained the outward practical resemblance between Marxism and facism as a political circle in which the extreme right and the extreme left meet, just as the centrists join the moderate left and right.
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PHOS,
I suppose it depends on the exact definition of left and right. How do you make a very clear distinction between left and right?
A definition with measureable meaning? Since the use of these terms appear arbitrary and have not been clearly defined I have subscribed to the government power spectrum of government placing both Marxism and Fascism on the left, totalitarianism with anarchy on the right. This leaves a very measurable spectrum from which to discuss political philosophy. The following 10 minute video does an excellent job laying this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE
It is true that there was fearce competition for supremacy between communists and NAZIs, but much of their promises were very clear culminating in the state becomming the new god and savior of the subjects. It would be similar to the Communist Party USA fighting it out with the Democrat Party of today; nary a differnce between their planks. Another comparison would be the struggles between the Roman Catholic Church and the reformed churches.
When I review the Fascist Manifesto I see liberalism similar to Marxism. This link takes you into some very interesting perspectives of Fascism lining up with the modern liberals. It was a favorite of the American Progressives back in the early 1900s. Woodrow Wilson was a big fan of Fascism. http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html
Jonah Goldberg in his ‘Liberal Fascism’ saw the same thing.
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#66 HRW “On this site, I have consistently described fascism as a conservative reaction to the French Revolution (and its liberal and socialist ideology) — an attempt to maintain the ruling elite ie the aristocracy, the military, the church, etc while incorporating the new bougeois elite created by capitalism.”
Italian Fascism is defined as follows:
So then, what is the essence of economic fascism in terms of principles? It is syndicalism and statism. Italy and Germany added nationalism. It is a state imposed collectivism where the worker controls the means of production via labor unions. It is in the upper left quadrant on the political spectrum, i.e. authoritarian and collectivist.
Anarcho-syndicalism is in the lower left quadrant. It is collectivist (i.e. leftist), but opposes state authority. However, given a choice between corporate power or state power, anarchists will always side with the state, as HRW does with European Socialism. A syndicalist who sides with the state is technically a fascist.
I am still waiting for HRW or Noam Chomsky or anyone else to explain how anarcho-syndicalism can ever be established without being imposed by state power. And so while anarchists always pretend to oppose the state, they will support temporary authoritarianism until syndicalism is established. Karl Marx said the same thing. Then the powerful are supposed to voluntarily relinquish power. Never happens.
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#70 Phos “Facism and communisim/Marxism were at the opposite ends of the political spectrum during the 1930s and World War II.”
That is what we were taught. Fascism is to the right of communism much like Oakland is to the right of San Francisco on a map. But both are to the far left compared to New York. Fascism, socialism and communism have much in common. They are all collectivist. Collectivism is leftist. It is contrary to liberty. Conservatives and classical liberals trumpet individualism and liberty which is at the other end of the spectrum.
If you research what communists and socialists and fascists want, you will see that they nearly identical. But socialists bicker endlessly about nuance.
All these leftist ideologies want the workers to control the means of production. They will use the state to achieve it. They say that once worker based collectives have been established, then the state should relinquish its authority to the workers. Never happens.
“My father always explained the outward practical resemblance between Marxism and facism as a political circle in which the extreme right and the extreme left meet, just as the centrists join the moderate left and right.”
I used to do the same thing. This is what one must do if one believes that two ideologies which are nearly identical are at the opposite ends of a spectrum. However, if you do the exercise I described in #42 it will become crystal clear.
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PHOS,
I misstated a sentence:
original reads: I have subscribed to the government power spectrum of government placing both Marxism and Fascism on the left, totalitarianism with anarchy on the right.
should read: I have subscribed to the government power spectrum of government placing both Marxism and Fascism on the left (totalitarianism) and anarchy on the right (no government).
As XION points out, Fascism may be a very little more right than Marxism, but they are both far left on the power spectrum. They are both admired by Progressives.
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#74 RWHawk, a one-dimensional spectrum doesn’t explain how some liberals are totalitarians and others are anarchists. The thing they have in common is collectivism. The only difference is whether they would use government authority to achieve it.
A two-dimensional spectrum also explains how some people like Chomsky can call himself a libertarian-socialist. What right-wing libertarians have in common with left wing libertarians is an aversion to centralized government.
To the left is collectivism, to the right is individualism. Both left and right can favor authoritarianism at the upper end and limited government at the bottom.
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XION,
The one dimensional spectrum just illustrates the state’s power from 100% totalitarian to 0% anarchy. The various forms of government are illustrated along the spectrum; dictator/monach, oligarchy, republic, democracy, anarchy.
This is how I see this:
I see collectivism only at the left of the spectrum as this is a totalitarian system and anarchy on the right is no state at all, just each individual his own civil government. Everyone going his own way.
Anarchy is just a transitional stage in the transformation process from one government to another. Marxists/Fascists use anarchy as a tool to stir up the masses to make the change to totalitarianism doable.
Did you look at the youtube video I linked in #71?
You should.
Take care
My method may seem more crude than yours, but I find that my students understand it. Adding more dimensions will add more confusion to them so I stick with the simple.
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#76 RWHawk, Yeah I’ve seen the YouTube video before. The funniest part is when he says that those who say fascism is to the far right NEVER define their terms. Man, isn’t that the truth!
And you are correct that the only true anarchist will be to the right, since on the left it is just a ruse, saying that totalitarianism will only be temporary until the system is set up. It is unbelievable that people fall for that. The 20th century is littered with the graves of those who fell for the leftist propaganda. Sad.
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Phos — your dad was correct but the current meme on the American right is to place fascism on the left. This is possible when you define left and right according to one quality only — the role of government. Note both Xion and RWH place totalatarianism on the left and classical liberalism/anarchism/liberatarianims on the right. By redefining the terms and judging ideologies according to one aspect, the American right has neglected the multi-faceted nature of ideologies ie gov’t role, culture, economics, corporate roles, etc. Its a simplisitc analysis and hence very appealing and within the narrow constraints of American history such an analysis is plausible. However, its not universally applicable.
George Orwell was a left anarchist who fought with the anarcho-syndicallist in Barcelona as they fought Franco and the Falange. Its that Mediterrean tradition of anarachism which influence the OWS movement and which makes it difficult for the American right to understand the movement since its difficult to fit into their very narrow one sided understanding of the left-right political spectrum.
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#78 HRW “Note both Xion and RWH place totalatarianism on the left and classical liberalism/anarchism/liberatarianims on the right.”
No, I don’t. I explained my position in #42. Please explain the principles of fascism in any terms you like. You will not define your terms objectively, because if you were to declare what the principles of fascism are, then the cat would be out of the bag. You cannot do this, since fascism and syndicalism (which you advocate) are one and the same. That would make you a (fill in the blank), which you could never accept.
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12.5% of the planets have 71% percent of the mass. It just isn’t fair! Occupy Jupiter!
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Why make something difficult when the concept is very simple. The impact of all these combinations comes down to the degree of freedom and liberty an individual has. As we progress to the left for a more totalitarian system, the state, the economy, moral/religious institutions, enterprise, NGOs, unions, etc begin to merge into one big sovereign sphere in one combination or another and choke the life out of the now turned subjects and their families. So whether it is 100% state owned and controlled, or Private/Public Partnership with 100% control, the result is identical for loss of liberties and freedoms though the name of the Leviathan maybe different. In the end, it is the state that has authorized and or directed these totalitarian combinations.
Bottom line for what all this means and what our focus should be are the losses of our First Principles such as rule-of-law, unalienable rights of individuals, equality of justice, etc. and transformation from sovereign citizens to subjects of the state.
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#80
Now there’s a plan I can get behind. We need bumperstickers.
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#78,
78 HRW “Note both Xion and RWH place totalatarianism on the left and classical liberalism/anarchism/liberatarianims on the right.”
I would suggest this is a mischaracterization of what my position is. I have identified only anarchy on the right. I would place classical liberalism alongside or with the Constitutional Republic we created [no longer have, however] which would tend towards the middle. I would also suggest for us Americans any discussion of left and right would use the Constitutional rule-of-law as the ‘center’ as it is fixed if we use the original intent of the Constitution.
The simple graph that I have suggested can be used as a basis for including other measures such as rule-of-law or unalieanable rights, etc. These would be added to the graph and all these other measures probably would look like an upside down horseshoe where they would all peak at 100% with the ‘center’.
The single power spectrum line could also become a tow dimensional shape resembling a stretched football to incorporate the various issues of libertarianism, etc. But again, the main emphasis for Americans should be focused on the citizens sovereignty which is the foundation of our form of government.
Unfortunately, we have fallen into the trap of the Far Left by focusing on the state as this is their god and all other institutions are subservient. I would imagine this is why HRW is so focused on the ’state’ in its purest form without the contaminations of the other entities it absorbs or partners with. But life isn’t that simple.
‘All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.’ Benito Mussolini
“The Nation State is spirit in its … actuality … it is therefore the absolute power on earth. … The State is the Spirit of the People itself. The actual State is animated by this spirit … The self-consciousness of one particular Nation is the vehicle for the … development of the collective spirit; … in it, the Spirit of the Time invests its Will. Against this Will, other national minds have no rights: that Nation dominates the World.” From G.W.F. Hegel
Down with Jupiter…….
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