Promoting homosexuality to students
Last week, students at Hartford Public High School (in my home state of Connecticut) were ushered into the school auditorium to watch a musical called Zanna, Don’t! What they saw onstage, among other things, was two guys kissing.
Zanna Don’t is set in a reverse world, according to a description in the Hartford Courant, where straight people are outcasts and the most popular kid in school is a flamboyantly homosexual chess player. And, you guessed it, the musical wasn’t intended as entertainment. It was another “anti-bullying” program that presumes that anyone who doesn’t believe homosexuality is morally neutral must be a bully.
One of the school’s principals, David Chambers, told the newspaper that many students had heard there might be same-sex affection portrayed in the play. Some reportedly asked to be excused, but their requests were denied. Chambers also says he considered sending a letter to parents giving them a chance to “opt out,” but decided against it.
Adam Johnson, another of the school’s principals, told the local CBS affiliate that the school knew in advance about the boy-to-boy kiss. “When one teacher asked if I wanted to remove it, I said absolutely not.”
The Courant describes what happened when the actors kissed. “There were screams and loud voices. . . . Dozens of students, mostly male . . . hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave.”
Johnson reports a slew of phone calls from angry parents following the performance. He wasn’t bothered, though. On the contrary, he considered the performance a success. “This is as important of a topic to discuss as anything in math, anything in social studies. I’m completely glad we did it.”
Getting rid of bullies isn’t the real point of productions like these, which happen in different forms and with different names in schools across the country. The real goal is to stamp out any objections—moral or religious—to practicing homosexuality. And if anyone wonders why public schools are failing, look no further than Johnson’s statement that this play is as important as math and social studies.

















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back to top502 Comments to “Promoting homosexuality to students”
Sounds like bullying to me!
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Recruiting for homosexualism and for homoseuxality is the aggressive activist mission that has replaced education in far too many gov’t paid public schools in the USA. Your tax money at work.
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The homosexualists want our children. They want their hearts, minds and bodies and they well not take ‘no’ (or even ‘maybe’) for an answer. The disrespect for the rights and feelings of others in the case above is both beyond the pale and all too typical.
And we pay the high salaries with rich benefits and lifelong pensions of these willfully perverted and disrespectful people.
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If parents got together and made a stink…..
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It used to be that schools and parents were on the same side.
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One of the principals stated “This is as important of a topic to discuss as anything in math, anything in social studies. I’m completely glad we did it.”
Gee, and you wonder why we have vast numbers, the majority actually, of highschool graduates not equiped for college and we are so behind other nations academically?
There are now a myriad of rediculous topics and sujects the public school system believes to be …. “as important of a topic as anything in math….” Most backed by a social agenda.
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CHAS – It used to be that schools taught academics. lol!
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And they are eliminating Halloween:
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/schools-declare-war-on-halloween.html?test=latestnews
You may recall that when I was little and switched churches, I stayed home in the afternoon. I was never teased for that.
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I don’t mind not having halloween shoved in my face at school. Back in my mother’s country it is still an all-out occultic “holi”day. That is where that celebration originated.
Banning its celebration is wrong, but promoting it would be as well.
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SOAPBXN at #6 wrote; “There are now a myriad of rediculous topics and sujects the public school system believes to be …. “as important of a topic as anything in math….”
However, few topics friendly to our Christian heritage are allowed.
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Halloween has been a tradition for certainly as long as I can remember. As I said, I opted out.
What bothers me is the REASON they don’t want Halloween. All that does is tell newcomers that they don’t have to adapt. I’m sick of that.
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And going after bullying should not be a homosexual issue. Bullying of any type is wrong. The homosexuals didn’t come out for that though, did they?
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A principal said, “I’m completely glad we did it.”
Much worse and more deadly than homosexuality itself is the proud self-righteous shamelessness in their hard hearts. It is the pretense and disrespect applied to push their homosexualist agenda. Any decent person would be able to admit it when they are in the wrong.
A homosexual who repents and surrenders his/her heart to God for re-creation and redemption can go to heaven forever. It is only the proud and willful refusal to repent that keeps them out of heaven forever.
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again this shows how the GLBT Community are trying to influence our kids..
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The real goal is to stamp out any objections—moral or religious—to practicing homosexuality
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Weclome to a godless society.
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Teenagers should not have heterosexuality promoted to them either. None of the nonsense in “Romeo and Juliet”, no “South Pacific”, certainly none of that “Brigadoon” garbage. Depictions of unmarried people kissing can lead to all kinds of problems, especially when the children are lied to about contraception in sex “education” class.
They also should be entirely shielded from the harsh realities of the larger world, as parents should serve as the sole arbiters of what they learn about what goes on in current society. Social Studies should be an elective that parents can opt out of, and if a parent wants their kid to leave high school thinking that the world is flat, everyone is white and Christian, no one is gay, and the Earth is 6000 years old, so be it.
My biggest problem with this performance is that it portrays heterosexuality as marginialized. This is terrible! Can you imagine the abuse the poor heterosexual students might have to endure from a majority of gays? Bullying, being driven to despair, told they are not normal – dreadful and certainly intolerable.
And since we want topics friendly to our Christian heritage in public education, I look forward to classes on Muslim advances in science and language, Satanism as a self-esteem booster, and Wicca in the botany section of biochemistry class.
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Mr. M’Choakumchild’s educational methods at Gradgrind’s School produce the following result in the Dickens classic “Hard Times”.
‘Father, you have trained me from my cradle? […] I curse the hour in which I was born to such a destiny […] How could you give me life, and take from me all the inappreciable things that raise it from the state of conscious death? Where are the graces of my soul? Where are the sentiments of my heart? What have you done, O father, what have you done, with the garden that should have bloomed once, in this great wilderness here! […] I don’t reproach you, father. What you have never nurtured in me, you have never nurtured in yourself; but O! if you had only done so long ago, or if you had only neglected me, what a much better and much happier creature I should have been this day!’ (2.12.10-18)
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#2
I think you hit it on the nail head, Joel Mark.
Who was it went to sleep and let John Dewey and other subsequent prohomo humanists pretty much take over the public ed system that your tax dollars and mine pay for??
We will wind up with illiterate gay kids with high self-esteem, healthy self-image etc yet totally unfit for any type of academic or vocational advancemt in the USA or the world at large!!
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I’m troubled parents were not allowed to opt-out their kids. That’s wrong.
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Schools seem to be trying to eliminate bullying by forcing all the students to think alike (like liberals) and agree with each. Would it not be better to teach them how to disagree civilly.
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An op-ed piece in the Hartford Courant
http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/hc-op-barreca-kiss-hartford-1021-20111021,0,5027782.column
tries to support “Zanna, Don’t” by comparing it to the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon”. “The Book of Mormon”, from what I understand, is a putdown not only on Mormonism but on all religion. The writer of the piece states that people are paying hundreds of dollars to see “The Book of Mormon”. But that’s the big difference. Only people who want to see “The Book of Mormon” are at its performances. In Hartford all the students were forced to attend the performance, even those students who asked to be excused. Also, parents were not notified so that they could opt-out their children. It is as if the entire student body of BYU were forced to sit through “The Book of Mormon”.
I would not attend either of these plays by choice and I would be very upset if I or my child was forced to sit through any play, lecture, panel, etc. that insulted my values and beliefs.
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And we can’t have a play about bullying without reference to sex?
They never taught me about heterosexuality in school, and certainly not homosexuality — which was still rightly known as a perversion at that time.
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Two people kissing on stage. Horrors!
Actually, I do find it discomfitting to watch, yet I believe that the only way to deal with intolerance is to demonstrate the humanity of those whom we are inclined not to tolerate.
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Bullying is NOT about sex. The lesson can be learned without sex. So don’t give me any “horrors” nonsense.
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I agree with the principal that it is an important topic to discuss, as important in its way as math and social studies. But the performance was not a discussion, and just because something is important to discuss doesn’t mean the public school gets to start the “discussion” and frame it in the terms of its own choosing. Telling people, in effect, “my point of view is the right one and if you disagree you are wrong” is hardly a way to get people to be more open to different points of view.
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NJL: Don’t give me any nonsense. As you well know, a substantial of bullying in Middle and High Schools is directly related to perceived sexual orientation.
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This was not about bulling it was about the promoting of the Gay Life Stlye as being noranml
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Bullying is bullying, Arcadia, and if you limit the lesson to sexual orientation — which was not a problem when I was in school — you don’t teach the proper lesson.
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You can’t “promote” homosexuality. You’re either born that way or you’re not. What you can promote is tolerance, but obviously, you’re not a proponent of that!
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This does not stop bullying it promote it, by promote one person sexual behavior above all the other issues. Event like these do not take in consideration the reason who someone may disagree with the Gay Life Style. These event are set to classifies any object as being seen as bullying.
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29. Tolerance means that you have the right to be, in my opinion, to be wrong. It does not mean I have to tell you you are right. You don’t want tolerance. You want affirmation.
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You can’t “promote” homosexuality. You’re either born that way or you’re not
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You can “promote” homosexuality an that is what is happen today in our society. An no you are not born that way.
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Pastor, people like Suejvin know they can’t prove that a person is “born that way” — and they certainly won’t let the psychological evidence of how these people have been abused by parents or others come out either.
When there is a real, true and honest discussion on the issue, we’ll talk with them, but homosexualists are not interested in facing the truth. What they are doing is a lot easier than facing the truth.
KBells is right. They are interested in everyone saying it’s okay. That’s easier than being honest with themselves — or more to thepoint — GOD.
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It was another “anti-bullying” program that presumes that anyone who doesn’t believe homosexuality is morally neutral must be a bully.
Actually it seems rather presumptuous to assume the program presumes that.
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Pastor, people like Suejvin know they can’t prove that a person is “born that way” — and they certainly won’t let the psychological evidence of how these people have been abused by parents or others come out either.
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They just pay no attention to any things that could prove them wrong, or they just label them all based on people filled with hate.
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If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, Buddyglass — it’s a duck.
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There’s nothing immoral with kissing.
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Fat kids are also high on the list of the bullied but they are not getting the same level of tolerance. As a matter of fact the school is going out of their way to tell the kids that fat is bad. How about something that tells the kids that being a little pudgy is natural and normal for some people and that refusing to be stick thin is their choice and their right.
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37. It depends on who you kiss.
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Let see I faced bullying every day in school due to having a speech problem. We never see a play put on about that?
What makes the GLBT Community more important then other kids? Other then their sick desire to force their moral values onto society.
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Something tells me, KBells, that you won’t be getting an answer on that one.
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Question: If a gay student makes flirtatious advances to another student, and the other student repulses them, could the second student be accused of bullying?
Think about how girls/women respond to boys/men who make unwanted advances to them – various methods: face slapping, name calling, warning other women about the man, etc. – nobody condemns women for doing that because they understand the need for a woman to use all her defenses.
If the second student in the hypothetical question used similar methods, then it really couldn’t be called bullying either.
There are two sides to every story; in alleged homosexual bullying, the other side is never told.
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phos – what happen if 2 students are readng and talking about the bible during study time and a gay student hears them and gets up set over it. The Gay student runs to the teacher over it and crys hate speech… Who will the teacher side?
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“The Courant describes what happened when the actors kissed. ‘There were screams and loud voices. . . . Dozens of students, mostly male . . . hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave.’”
Wow, I would smack my kids’ backsides into two red little bottoms if they ever behaved like that in a theater! Parents today. Go figure.
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REDWAL, if you smack your kids backside for kissing the other actor in the theater you’re not getting the point of the play.
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Redwal – Those kids walked out because they view it was wrong and had no place in school. Those kids were right.
What is happen again is showing the School’s today are no longer teaching kids but are promoting the GLBT Community desires.
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SUEJVIN at #29 wrote; “You can’t “promote” homosexuality. You’re either born that way or you’re not.”
SUEJVIN has apparently taken the dehumanizing view that homosexuals are not even human beings, but rather only robots without moral freedom or choices or just like dogs and rats that live purely on genetic programming or inbred instinct. Deny choice in this matter and you coldly deny humanity.
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At a mandatory seminar at Texas A&M, an associate dean lectured about tolerance, diversity and homophobia. In the audience, two young Aggies were on their I-phones researching what steps could be taken to keep A&M at the top of the list of “gay unfriendly colleges”.
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REDWAL wrote; “I would smack my kids’ backsides into two red little bottoms if they ever behaved like that in a theater!”
Sounds like you are VERY intolerant, REDWAL; violently intolerant!
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44: Many audience members do that to shows they don’t like. The first performance of Stravinsky’s <i<Rite of Spring is legendary for the riot that it caused. Those in the performing arts understand the need not only for artists to express themselves, but also for the audience to express their personal reactions.
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44. I’d be quite proud of my kid for taking a stand. I have walked out a a couple of movies that became objectionable.
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I wonder what the School did to those kids that walked out?
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Figures. Hartford is one of the poorest cities in the nation for its size, has horrible mastery scores, is plagued by violent gang activity, drug abuse, and rampant Black and Hispanic racism . Working Families Party, which is completely Marxist in flavor and a big supporter of the OWS movement, is also one of the driving forces in Hartford. They are trying to get more federal money from Obama for their already over paid, grossly inefficient schools. Perhaps they’re working on a sequel to this musical.
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Redwal is a child abuser?
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If you’re so worried about the gays that you’r children grow up thinking they can scream in a theater. That they can jump up on seats and run in places where it’s not safe, polite or acceptable to be running, you’re a failure of a parent. Congratulations, you have raised very heterosexual lowlifes!
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“There were screams and loud voices. . . . Dozens of students, mostly male . . . hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave.”
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Redwal – You miss the part “hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave” They kids left in protest of the GLBT Community forcing their life stlye on them.
If the GLBT Community want people to respect them, then they should stop forcing their moral values onto the school systems.
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sorry should read
There were screams and loud voices. . . . Dozens of students, mostly male . . . hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave.”
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Redwal – You miss the part “hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave” THESE kids left in protest of the GLBT Community forcing their life stlye on them.
If the GLBT Community want people to respect them, then they should stop forcing their moral values onto the school systems.
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“Dozens of students, mostly male . . . hurried out of their rows and walked out. A few jumped over seats to leave.”
So you somehow got a stampeding mob out of that?
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Did they really “grow up thinking they can scream in a theater”? C’mon. Do you really think so??
It sounds like the students who left valued morality more than decorum. Good for them.
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It is amazing how the GLBT Community have been able to froce their moral values in school’s all in the name of Bullying.
How does a school distict say no to them, an face the rsik of being label a school district that supports bullying and the wrath of the Teacher Union and the Dem. Party.
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If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, Buddyglass — it’s a duck.
Have you seen the play? I didn’t see any “walking like a duck” in Segelstein’s description.
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These schools districts are being placed in a no win position. If they say to the GLBY Community they are giving a label and face lawsuites and pressure from the Teacher Union and the Dem. Party.
If they say yes, they get label by us the Christians. How can they win, here.
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sorry missed a word
These schools districts are being placed in a no win position. If they say “NO” to the GLBY Community, they are giving a label and face lawsuites and pressure from the Teacher Union and the Dem. Party.
If they say yes, they get label by us the Christians. How can they win, here.
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Have you, BuddyGlass? Or aren’t you clever enough to know that a boy on boy kiss in a school play isn’t teaching homosexuality?
I mean, maybe that’s the reason Leftys buy anything and everything. They just don’t see when they are being pulled around by the ring in their noses.
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Arcadia, (26)
Where are the studies that show substantial of bullying in Middle and High Schools is directly related to perceived sexual orientation.
You forget about the fat, unpopular, ugly, black/white/hispanic, weak, jewish/muslim,Christian, or just someone that they want to pick on.
Gay is just the one they choose to promote!
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Most bullies do not really need a reason, they want to look IMPORTANT in the eyes of their friends.
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Oh, so that’s why the homosexuals are bullying the rest of us?
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Have you, BuddyGlass?
Nope.
Or aren’t you clever enough to know that a boy on boy kiss in a school play isn’t teaching homosexuality?
I’m quite positive the play presents homosexuality as morally neutral. But that is not the same as “presuming that anyone who doesn’t believe homosexuality is morally neutral must be a bully.”
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Too many Americans today who live on TV, go to public schools, and worship (and vote for) celebrities believe everything is morally neutral. Everything is equally valid except the denial that everything is equally valid. That’s invalid.
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Sure Buddy, I might buy such nonsense, were it not for stuff like this. There is an agenda, they’re forcing it on kids unbeknownst to parents, and everywhere else. Including, or maybe especially in the press. You cannot possibly be ignorant of such efforts.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2011/10/21/piles-tv-newsers-wear-purple-conservative-censoring-gay-lobby
“October 20 marked the second annual “Spirit Day” thrown by the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Debate (GLAAD). They say the D stands for Defamation, but they’ve been very aggressive in pressuring media outlets to refuse to grant time to any conservative guest that dares to question the gay agenda. To celebrate “Spirit Day,” GLAAD encouraged the news and entertainment media to wear purple to show their leftist support — ostensibly for the “LGBT” youth and against bullying, and boy, did they show it. And dissent is not permitted.
TVNewser reports two of three evening news anchors — NBC’s Brian Williams and ABC fill-in George Stephanopoulos — wore purple, and there was even more gay-alliance violet on the morning shows:”
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/January/GLAAD-Asks-CNN-to-Stop-Booking-Anti-Gay-Guests/
“A gay activist group has asked the cable television network CNN not to book guests who are opposed to homosexuality.
The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation – or GLAAD – launched an online petition Jan. 6 against the network’s use of anti-gay activist on sexual orientation issues.
“We’re telling the media to go to experts. We’re telling the media to go to scholars, or academics, or historians, or witnesses, or people who can speak to actual first-hand experience or knowledge,” GLAAD Associate Director of National News Aaron McQuade told OutQ News.
“That is journalism,” McQuade continued. “That is what the public needs to learn about issues of LGBT rights.”
GLAAD claimed conservative groups have nothing to offer but “hurtful, dangerous,” and “false notions.”"
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The reason they pull this nonsense without parents knowledge is because they know the majority of people disagree with their agenda. They attempt to silence dissent, or sneak it in before the parents could stop it. It’s disgusting.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2010/09/12/glaad-gets-cnn-poll-spiked-finds-it-troubling-opponent-mrc-allowed-cnn-s
“The gay left hates debate – especially the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. They’re furious that CNN Headline News offered balance and came to the Media Research Center’s Culture and Media Institute for a negative opinion on homosexuality. That’s apparently beyond the pale.
Mediaite reported that GLAAD succeeded in pressuring CNN into spiking an online poll that asked the question “Is the surge in gay TV characters ‘bad for society’?” On the GLAAD blog, Aaron McQuade found it was “troubling” for CNN to allow dissent:”
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-removes-online-poll-asking-if-gay-tv-characters-are-bad-for-society/
“With some obvious exceptions, asking whether something is “good for society” will more likely than not get you in hot water, especially when the object of discussion is an entire group of people and their representation in pop culture. CNN learned this the hard way this week when they received a request from GLAAD to remove an offensive online poll asking: “Is the surge in gay TV characters ‘bad for society’?”
The poll was an online bonus to a feature on Headline News’ Showbiz Tonight about the “surge” in gay and gay-friendly characters on TV, and the impact they would have on culture. GLAAD took some issue with the segment because, according to its website, of its “war language” against the gay community, but the poll itself was significantly more offensive.”
The gay community, for all the blathering they do about tolerance, are the most intolerant and bigoted bunch out there. Especially if the oposition is christian in nature.
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“GLAAD took some issue with the segment because, according to its website, of its “war language” against the gay community, but the poll itself was significantly more offensive.””
Good grief.
Whiney little drama queens.
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Sure. They wish fewer people were bothered by homosexuality. I get that. And yet that’s still not the same as presuming anyone who doesn’t believe homosexuality is morally neutral must be a bully..
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Normalizing homosexuality is one of the methods to destroy the traditional family and set in place a cultural transformation. Obama’s school safety czar, homosexual Kevin Jennings of Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) is pushing this program down the throats of the public.
To achieve this, the Critical Theorists of the Frankfurt School recognized that traditional beliefs and the existing social structure would have to be destroyed and then replaced. The patriarchal social structure would be replaced with matriarchy; the belief that men and women are different and properly have different roles would be replaced with androgyny; and the belief that heterosexuality is normal would be replaced with the belief that homosexuality is equally “normal.”
And from The Naked Communist’s list of 45 goals for the USA 26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
Hitler said it best for this administration about the state’s totalitarian control of children:
When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already… What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.”
A new DVD came out this month….IndoctriNation. This is an exceptional film that should be shown in every church, every Christian home and to the public. Why do Christians sacrifice their children to civil govt paganism?
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I’m so tired of turning on the TV and on every channel you hear the homosexual community crying “bullying”. I’m wondering what exactly is their definition of “bullying”. This whole thing seems to based off of “I don’t like it that you don’t approve of my lifestyle and you’re faith in Christ pricks my concience and reminds me of my depravity, so I’m going to silence you by making you a criminal along with your belief”, bottom line. The typical predator, like a pack of wolves, “Well since we can’t bring down the cow or the bull moose less attack the young, easy prey”
You know, I’ve noticed that over the past 3 years, especially, (one could only wonder why) we are in a situation that forces people to see just how depraved and godless our nation has become. Eversince last election it’s been like a national horror show, with the socialists-leftists as the head vampires and when they take the podium all the other vampires start to show their fangs and transform. I’v never heard so much noise before from the LBGT community.
As fate seems to have it you are starting to see all of the evil in this society come out in the open. People are starting to see the hideous monster in the horizon created by veering away from God and the ideas that formed this once great nation. Those who are ignorant, don’t realize that it was He that made us great, and they are being allowed to spread this ignorance to our kids.
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“This is as important of a topic to discuss as anything in math, anything in social studies. I’m completely glad we did it.”
Discussing the topic and insisting on mandatory attendance to a play displaying the topic are two entirely different things.
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Oh, yeah. Hartford is just dying for lack of discussion and toleration of homosexuality. Hartford’s Mayor Pedro Segarra is gay and married to his long-time boyfriend.
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That explains it all!
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Debra, whether the topic wants for lack of discussion wasn’t my point. Again, to willingly discuss an issue and to be forced to view that issue in a venue of someone else’s own choosing and the way they choose to present it are two different things.
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I know Hopesprings. Nothing personal toward you. I was responding more to the principal’s comment. With misplaced and perverted priorities like these, it’s no wonder Hartford is in an educational and economic pit. It’s a shame really, because Hartford has many natural and historical assets. But that’s what happens when generous potential is grossly mismanaged and sin rules openly.
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Thanks, Debra.
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BTW, homosexual marriage was not the first sin to ‘rule openly’. It is said that years ago the CEO of Travelers Insurance used to ride the elevators up and down at quitting time, incognito. He would stand at the back of the crowd and listen to the employees’ comments, and use that as feedback to improve employee relations and customer service.
But business models changed. They got a new CEO, and gave him an astronomical salary. He was known by the slogan: “if you want loyalty, get a dog.”
It’s not just about sexual sins. It’s a package deal.
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@PatriotX: “As fate seems to have it you are starting to see all of the evil in this society come out in the open. People are starting to see the hideous monster in the horizon created by veering away from God and the ideas that formed this once great nation.”
Yes, agreed, 100%. When people call evil good and good evil, the world is surely going to hell in a handbasket. This is why shameful, vulgar bigotry, bullying and racism is being defended by parents and other adults who really should know better. A nation where trashy, low-class values are allowed in a public education setting is surely in decline. I fear that the Hartford schools are shoveling sand against the tide.
Sin never dies, and The Great Commandment isn’t violated on a daily basis without help from Satan’s minions. This thread is evidence of that.
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83. Why can’t you see the difference between disagreement and hate?
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Normalizing homosexuality is one of the methods to destroy the traditional family…
Out of curiosity, what’s an example of somewhere homosexuality has been normalized and the traditional family was subsequently destroyed? I look at liberal western Europe and I still see traditional families as the norm.
I’m wondering what exactly is their definition of “bullying”.
Chronic (possibly verbally) abusive treatment.
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Here’s a strange case. A Mormon girl being attacked on a very personal level responds with the generic “that’s so gay” and guess who gets in trouble for being a bully?
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#86 Well the Mormon, of course. Since the only high-profile Mormons are Republicans, and the most high-profile homosexuals are Democrats— duh. ;–)
Virtually no party advocates bullying and hating, but anti-bullying legislation (like anti-hate legislation) is primarily a Democrat tactic creating a pretext to bully and hate on their opponents.
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@ KBells – try this:
1) I disagree that black people are worthy of equal rights and should not be allowed to marry white people.
2) I disagree that gay couples who rescue a child from foster care are a family.
3) I disagree that Christianity should be publicly celebrated on minor holidays like Christmas in the public square at public expense.
4) I disagree that the government should stay out of everyone’s bedrooms… except for gay couples’.
Does it sound like mere disagreement… or hate?
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@ Debra – I suppose the Mormon funding of Prop 8 legislation in California wasn’t bullying and hate. That’s why they have defied federal orders to disclose their donors.
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What if the boys just lie on the breasts of the boys they love?
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Or better, why don’t the men just lie on the breasts of the little boys they love to love on. I can’t wait until the GLBT becomes GLBTP—at least it’ll be out in the open. Maybe they’ll even get a few liberal priests to join.
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Since I don’t the reasons behind those opinion than they are just your opinions. I’m not going to assume hate.
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You don’t want tolerance. You want affirmation.
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BUDDYGLASS,
Out of curiosity, what’s an example of somewhere homosexuality has been normalized and the traditional family was subsequently destroyed? I look at liberal western Europe and I still see traditional families as the norm.
Good question, though I don’t think western Europe is a role model for the USA to emulate as it is collapsing as quickly as we are.
Destruction of the traditional family ultimately affects the primary pillars necessary to sustain a culture. The primary pillars being economic structure, politics and religion/morality. Normalizing homosexuality is just one element of many that are being governmentally forced onto our culture for the Transformation of America. God has told us from scripture that collapse of nations are due to sin, including normalization of homosexuality. Secular history of cultural collapses provides additional evidence that normalizing homosexuality is part of the equation for cultural collapse such as:
The Decline of the Family
Nations most often fall from within, and this fall is usually due to a decline in the moral and spiritual values in the family. As families go, so goes a nation.
This has been the main premise of thinkers from British historian J. D. Unwin to Russian sociologist Pitirim Sorokin who have studied civilizations that have collapsed. In his book Our Dance Has Turned to Death, Carl Wilson identifies the common pattern of family decline in ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. Notice how these seven stages parallel what is happening in our nation today:
1. In the first stage, men ceased to lead their families in worship. Spiritual and moral development became secondary. Their view of God became naturalistic, mathematical, and mechanical.
2. In the second stage, men selfishly neglected care of their wives and children to pursue material wealth, political and military power, and cultural development. Material values began to dominate thought, and the man began to exalt his own role as an individual.
3. The third stage involved a change in men’s sexual values. Men who were preoccupied with business or war either neglected their wives sexually or became involved with lower-class women or with homosexuality. Ultimately, a double standard of morality developed.
4. The fourth stage affected women. The role of women at home and with children lost value and status. Women were neglected and their roles devalued. Soon they revolted to gain access to material wealth and also freedom for sex outside marriage. Women also began to minimize having sex relations to conceive children, and the emphasis became sex for pleasure. Marriage laws were changed to make divorce easy.
5…… http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4217933/k.664B/The_Decline_of_a_Nation.htm
I’d recommend you read the essay found on the link above. You may even be inclined to read Carl Wilson’s book ‘Our Dance has turned to Death’. Match the historical accounts with the agenda from the Frankfurt School and the implementation of Political Correctness in our culture and the indoctrination going on in govt schools.
HAWK
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PATRIOTX,
I’m so tired of turning on the TV and on every channel you hear the homosexual community crying “bullying”. I’m wondering what exactly is their definition of “bullying”. This whole thing seems to based off of “I don’t like it that you don’t approve of my lifestyle and you’re faith in Christ pricks my concience and reminds me of my depravity…
You’re right. We only have about one more week of this propaganda this year as this is Anti-Bullying month. Yesterday our school district ‘celebrated’ the perversion in all its schools from K-12.
As far as definition, this goes beyond bullying, it also includes harrasment according to the new Senate’s Safe Schools Improvement Act .
The Safe Schools Improvement Act Defines Bullying As:
[Conduct that] adversely affects the ability of one or more students to participate in or benefit from the school’s educational programs or activities by placing the student (or students) in reasonable fear of physical harm.
The Safe Schools Improvement Act Defines Harassment As:
[Conduct that] adversely affects the ability of one or more students to participate in or benefit from the school’s educational programs or activities because the conduct, as reasonably perceived by the student (or students), is so severe, persistent, or pervasive.
You are so accurate in your observation. What is harrasment to one is speaking the Truth in love by another. Their sensitivities are shaken due to the conviction of sin as the Laws are written onto our hearts. As God tells us, they can not stand the light of truth and want to hide in darkness.
Interesting that liberals have been claiming that you can not legislate morality (which is a lie as all legislation is based on the morality of one religious worldview or another) but they continue legislating their religious morality of relativism onto the culture.
It just doesn’t make sense that Christian parents continue to sacrifice their childrens’ eternal lives by sending them to be indoctrinated to religious paganism by the state.
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Besides the objectionable aspects of normalizing public homosexual behavior among kids, there’s another bad principle at work here.
If this is really about bullying, then it’s based on the noxious premise that only if you create sympathy for the bullied individuals, can you get kids to stop bullying them.
It’s not a bad thought that promoting a better attitude toward different groups of people is good, but that’s an inferior moral principle to the one they should be promoting: no matter what you think of other people, whether you think them the same, better, inferior to yourself, whether you’re jealous of them or despise them, *bullying is wrong and unacceptable.*
There, now we don’t have to go creating all this sympathy for this, that and the other group (regardless of how deserving of sympathy they may or may not be), particularly among nasty kids who don’t operate on the basis of sympathy or empathy anyway, we just have to teach kids that you never, ever, bully other people and it will not be tolerated.
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Debra, FWIW, Harry Reid is a Mormon. An adult convert, no less.
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PENTAMOM1,
Would you suppose another way of putting your observation in #96 is to love the sinner but not the sin?
That way you can maintain God’s absolute ethical standards without the dialectic process of compromise to reach consensus in a world of moral relativism.
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RWHawk, sure, that’s part of it.
But in a setting like a school, you’re not even necessarily trying to teach people where there hearts should be — or you shouldn’t. But what absolutely *is* their responsibility is to teach people how to behave, at least when in the school’s care. And if you send the message that behavior is legitimately conditioned by how you feel about “those people,” (whether “those people” are homosexual, unattractive, lacking social skills, of a different race, overweight, shy, or even genuinely mean) that’s the wrong lesson for a school. The school’s lesson should be, “You don’t treat any people that way no matter how little sympathy we have for them.” You shouldn’t have to give kids a “reason” (like homosexuality is okay, or being shy isn’t someone’s fault) to behave appropriately, you should just. plain. require it.
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As I said, that’s not to say that it’s wrong for schools to promote the idea that some things aren’t any reason to feel negatively toward people. But a school’s actual bottom line of “it doesn’t matter how you feel, you don’t act that way” shouldn’t be undercut by “here’s a reason not to feel that way so you don’t act that way.” And by making an “anti-bullying” campaign into a campaign to make people feel positively about certain people, it mixes the issues too much.
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100: Exactly, that is pretty much what you’re told in healthcare training – You may not even like your patient, but they are a human being and must be treated with all the care and consideration you would give your own mother.
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lucycat 10.22.11 AT 10:52 AM
@ Debra – I suppose the Mormon funding of Prop 8 legislation in California wasn’t bullying and hate. That’s why they have defied federal orders to disclose their donors.
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Since the GLBT Community has target the support of prop 8 place of business and homes. why should the Mormon share that information
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Here is the most important question how did a gay judge get the Prop 8 lawsuit? Why was ths not seen as a conflict of interest. Since he was ruling on his on rights to be able to get married.
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The reason they didn’t want to disclose the names was because of threats. Of course, we know that homosexuals don’t bully, right? Sarcasm off.
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Everyone’s entitled to their beliefs, right??????
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Behavior doesn’t have to be preponderant to be normal.
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102, 104 – It’ s legally required to disclose your donor lists, as several court rulings against NOM have shown. What kind of a lawyer doesn’t know that? Do you even read the Law Journal?
As to 103 – that’s just plain ridiculous, Pastor. I suppose female judges cannot be relied upon to be impartial in sexual harrassment cases, black judges can’t be unbiased with regard to racial discrimination cases, and divorced judges can’t preside over divorce proceedings.
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PENTAMOM1,
But in a setting like a school, you’re not even necessarily trying to teach people where there hearts should be — or you shouldn’t. But what absolutely *is* their responsibility is to teach people how to behave,…
That is what we should expect from schools. Establish the standards of acceptable behavior and enforce them.
But the agenda of our Progessive educrats is to mold the childs value system into what the DOE considers appropriate values to accommodate transformation of our culture. This means changing their hearts, not controlling behavior, unfortunately.
One cannot permit submission to parental authority if one wishes to bring profound social change…In order to effect rapid changes, any such centralized regime must mount a vigorous attack on the family lest the traditions of present generations be preserved. It is necessary, in other words, artificially to create an experiential chasm between parents and children to insulate the latter in order that they can more easily be indoctrinated with new ideas.
1968, Warren Bennis and Philip Slater, The Temporary Society
The battle is over the hearts and minds of our children; between the parents and the state.
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All I said was “the reason…” That’s got nothing to do with any holdings. What kind of lawyer am I? The kind who can put a sentence together that you can’t grasp, but that’s because you live in hostile world.
May I ask if you are a homosexual, but that would explain the hostility.
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SM,
Behavior doesn’t have to be preponderant to be normal.
The true measure for behavior is whether or not it conforms to God’s definition of good or evil for consideration of acceptance.
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I also seriously doubt that a ruling has been given on the appeal in the First Circuit filed in September. Keep up.
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Everybody’s entitled to their beliefs, right??????
I’m waiting for ANY homosexual to agree to that!
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I think they would agree that we are all entitled to their beliefs, we are just not entitled to ours.
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109 – Lawyer, you may ask if I am gay if I can ask whether you clean your underthings with Endust.
I’m not homosexual, but it is a given that everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
This includes Satanists, Muslims, Jews, the KKK, Neo-Nazis, atheists… and right-wing Dominionists. The REAL question is what beliefs are to be encouraged in the classroom. Clearly the Dominionists have been given a kick in the pants and got their tend’r fee-fees hurt. From Dover v. PA to students being expelled for “Christian” bullying of kids of other faiths (or heaven forfend, percieved as gay), the control of hate hiding behind Christianity over America’s classrooms is on the wane.
Thank God for that.
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@ 96 – Pentamom: Besides the objectionable aspects of normalizing public homosexual behavior among kids, there’s another bad principle at work here.
There should be no normalizing of public heterosexual behavior among kids, either. School is not an orgy. There should be no hand-holding, note-passing, hugging or kissing allowed by ANY student, and frankly, school dances and the prom often lead to public heterosexual behavior that kids should never be encouraged in. There should be no dancing, no Valentine’s Day references, and no kids of driving age should ever transport another student to the school campus. They might Think A Sex Thought whilst driving and cause a crash.
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Every year I teach anti-harassment and personal safety as part of grade seven health. On my list of topics are sexism, date rape, sexual harassment, racism, and homophobia. I frequently use videos and on the last topic I have shown a video which shows two boys holding hands and kissing (its a British safe school video). I’ve experienced no parental backlash from my mostly Muslim parents. Of course I doubt my students tell their parents but none of my students walked out or complain. And in fact, one of my students ( a Muslim girl) actually recommended the video.
This is not about normalizing anything. Its about promoting the idea that discrimination and bullying based on differences is not acceptable. We don’t allow people to bullying each other on the basis of religion,race, colour etc and nor should we allow students be bullied on the basis of sexual orientation.
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HRW, no one is saying it is okay to bully gay students. Personally I am just wondering why in the case of gays, approval is the only way to prevent them being bullied. Fat kids, nerd kids, unhygienic kids and Mormon kids are not getting the same treatment.
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What is it about ‘normalize’ you don’t understand?
‘Normalize’ homosexual practice in school curriculum?
By Hillary White
2/22/2008
LifeSiteNews (www.lifesitenews.com)
The National Education Association and American Psychological Association tell students that homosexuality is “normal”.
TORONTO (LifeSiteNews) – At the same time that news has come out that the Toronto Catholic School board has refused to participate in pro-homosexual activities, homosexual activists are making significant inroads in US schools, as a booklet titled, “Just the Facts about Sexual Orientation and Youth,” is set to be distributed to all 16,000 school districts in the country.
The 24-page booklet by the National Education Association and American Psychological Association, tells students that homosexuality is a “normal expression of human sexuality”.
“What’s so scary and dogmatic about this report is that it communicates that religious-based viewpoints are harmful, and even dangerous,” said Candi Cushman, education analyst for Focus on the Family Action.
The booklet particularly targets the idea that homosexuality is a condition that can be changed. It instructs educators, “Schools should be careful to avoid discussions of transformational ministry in their curriculum.” ….
Why should they be careful when the therapy works for those that choose to reorient out of a harmful and deadly lifestyle? Because it is not Politically Correct?
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Does the booklet also state that homophobia is not an actual anxiety disorder? Does it discuss the health risks of all sexual behaviours?
It should contain a discussion of varying religious views. A completely balanced analysis views an issue from all angles; and a good teacher gives his students all the data and then allows them to draw their own conclusions.
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kbells
anti-homophobia education does not tell kids to approve homosexuality only that bullying people because of their sexual orientation is wrong.
In terms of equal treatment, specific lessons deal with sexism and racism along with homophobia. Thus covering a large portion of the population. I also deal less formally with discrimination and bullying on other less common basis including hygiene, body shape, and intellectual (dis)ability. For the most part my school is incredibly diverse and bullying is a minor issue — homophobia in middle school is probably one of if not the largest issue. Hence it makes sense to focus on it.
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I don’t use Endust, I use swiffer and vacuum cleaner. How about you?
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And don’t forget to keep up with that appeal, Lucycat.
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@ 121/122 – Lawyer, Tide does the trick for me. There certainly isn’t a cobweb or dust problem with my nethers.
As to religious based viewpoints, as I previously said, there is room for a widely diverse viewpoint on these issues, and I think that both middle school and high school students should be required to take a class on World Religions so that they don’t toddle out into the world thinking that there is only one religion and one way of thinking about things. Of course, this makes me a radical liberal, but I think that students educated in such a manner will be more prepared to deal with the public at large.
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PHOS,
Does the booklet also state that homophobia is not an actual anxiety disorder? Does it discuss the health risks of all sexual behaviours?
Honesty and Truth promoted by the NEA in govt schools???? Unfortunately, the booklet is very much anti Christ and pro Marxism. It’s whole worldview is based on ‘homosexuality is normal.’ Here is an excerpt from the booklet:
Despite the general consensus of major medical, health, and mental health professions that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are normal expressions of human sexuality, efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public. However, such efforts have serious potential to harm young people because they present the view that the sexual orientation of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth is a mental illness or disorder, and they often frame the inability to change one’s sexual orientation as a personal and moral failure.
So if any Christian students witness to a homosexual that there is hope for change and they can get out of an abominable lifestyle the Christian would be violating Federal law (should the current bill pass) for ‘harassment’ and possibly ‘hate speech.’
NARTH exposes the lies of the booklet, however: http://www.narth.com/docs/narthresponse.html
“Aren’t gay-affirming school programs necessary because they keep schools safe?”
Without question, the aim of gay-affirmative counseling programs is humanitarian. They are responding to a problem of scapegoating which schools must address. But the problem is, while claiming only to discourage scapegoating, gay-affirming programs do much more. In reality, they promote a particular worldview, complete with truth claims that students are expected to adopt–lest they become the scapegoats, as victims of these programs’ insistence on conformity. These programs promote the value systems of a particular social group and denigrate the views of another, while at the same time, distorting science.
“But doesn’t science tell us that homosexuals are ‘born that way’?”
“Just the Facts” implies that there is a distinct population of gay, lesbian and bisexual students who were “born that way” and cannot change. But there is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply “genetic.”
“Gay gene” researcher Dr. Dean Hamer (himself a gay man) was asked by Scientific American if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:
“Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited….
Notice the difference NARTH states as this program promotes a particular worldview and HRW #120 (an educrat) denies it; probably due to swimming in that particular worldview and recognizing the promotion.
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RWH
an educrat — seriously??? I’m a teacher. I teach 32 grade sevens. I don’t have the inclination to crat anything (I just verbalized a half word…I’ve been teaching 13 year olds too long)
I know the difference between promoting a worldview and discouraging scapegoating and in my room the latter occurs. If I was to engage in the former, I would be challenged by parents, other teachers and students.
BTW — I just read a book “Incoginto”. The author essentially points out that nearly everything is linked to our genes yet almost everything needs an environmental trigger. The interaction between nature and nurture is far too compliccated to dismiss one or the other but suffice to say, homosexuality has biological roots.
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123. There are more than one way to think and people have the right to think that way and I have the right to believe that most of them are wrong. That is not hate, that is my sincerely held belief. It sounds almost as though you are saying that universalism is the only right way to think and to the only proper religion to teach children.
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120. Why can’t we just teach kids that bullying is wrong for any reason. We can never get them all to think alike. It seems like it would be better to teach them to disagree civilly.
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“anti-homophobia education does not tell kids to approve homosexuality only that bullying people because of their sexual orientation is wrong. ”
It is both more efficient and more moral to teach kids that bullying people for ANY reason is wrong. If you say “bullying them for X reason is wrong” does that not imply that there could, theoretically, be an appropriate reason for bullying? But if you say “bullying is always wrong,” you send no such mixed message.
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kbells and pentamom
you have a point — but unfortunately if you don’t point out specific behaviours are wrong, children won’t see the problem. Children are similar to many adults who perceive differences as a n excuse to bully. Trus t me I can say bullying is wrong always and five minutes later a kid will say but he’s gay.
People do have the right to believe a behaviour, ideology or religion is wrong but they do not have the right to discriminate on that basis. Just as you would expect students to tolerate religious differences (even if they think its a wrong belief) you should expect student to tolerate differing sexual orientation (even if they think its inmoral). This isn’t an affirmation of universalism but it is an expectation of civility.
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There have been incidence where kids were accused of bullying for just disproving of homosexuality in general. For example the girl kidnapped by the bus driver and lectured for saying she disagreed with gay marriage. And the Mormon girl who responded to a personal attack on her faith and with the generic “that’s so gay. Guess who got in trouble?
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isolated incident and errors should not take away the readily apparent fact that homophobic bullying is quite prevelant.
And the generic “that’s so gay” becomes very old very fast. Its interesting to note that this story only gained currency after the parents sued. Students get discipline slips for all sorts of reasons including disparging other people’s faiths but if you don’t take the school to court no-one will know about it.
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@ 126 – Kbells: It sounds almost as though you are saying that universalism is the only right way to think and to the only proper religion to teach children.
No.
Decently educated people are cultured in the sense that they know that other people believe differently than they do, they understand why they believe what they do, and yet still manage to retain their own faith and belief systems.
“My version of Christianity is the only valid one.” has driven more people from Christ’s teachings than all the Crusades and Inquisitions combined.
And “That’s so gay.” as an insult is about as generiic as “That’s a perversion of the Great Commandment issued by Christ Himself.”
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@ 124 – RHAWK, NARTH has been debunked many times, as has reparative therapy, by every single mental health organization in America. Citing to science is really not their strong suit. And if you want Christian students to have the freedom to “witness” to other students, you’d best be ready for when little Stevie Satanist brings his Crowley Satanic Bible to school as well.
Proselytizing in public schools is a bad idea.
Why?
Well, a rebellious teen in a Satanic household may eventually come to Christ, but don’t be surprised if you find your own “Christian” child drawing a pentagram on the living room rug with Carpet Fresh and dancing around it uttering incantations.
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LUCY,
Politics is very much alive in the world of science and pseudo science. The results and testimonies can’t be debunked. Exodus International is another successful organization helping homosexuals who want out to the debilitating lifestyle.
Take a look at Dr Robert Spitzer. He was the one responsible for removing homosexuality from the DSM in 1971. He has altered his opinion now: Spitzer has stated that his research “shows some people can change from gay to straight, and we ought to acknowledge that.” Got the gay community in an uproar…over truth.
Proselytizing in public schools is a bad idea.
I would suggest the whole concept of govt schools is a bad idea. They have been and continue to be a most expensive failure.
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HRW,
My hat is off to you for teaching the 7th grade. I substituted for a few years and mainly taught in middle school, math, science and history. The 8th graders were tough to handle. If I recall correctly, you teach history.
Sorry for the use of educrat. The more I study about the failure of the school system the less generous I am with those in it. This homosexual propaganda is only part of the failings.
What worldview is prevalent in your classroom? It is not worldview neutral nor is it Christian. What is it? In the USA the prevalent worldview in our govt schools is cultural Marxism, I would be surprised if Canada’s schools are different.
Incognito…Francis Collins noted the same but gave a big caution on what it implies. He says there is evidence for genetic predispostion, but environmental factors and free will choices play huge roles. It appears there is still much to be learned before anything definitive is established.
What is wrong in govt schools is only one worldview is tolerated at the expense of truth. The homosexual normalization agenda is no different and is geared to force a transformation of our nation.
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There have been incidence where kids were accused of bullying for just disproving of homosexuality in general
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That is what the GLBT Community desires. Any one who questions their moral values, views and ideas will be accused of bullying.
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“Trus t me I can say bullying is wrong always and five minutes later a kid will say but he’s gay.”
To which you reply, “What part of suspension from school (or other appropriately severe punishment) makes it hard to understand that it doesn’t matter?”
If the self-justifying arguments of middle schools form the basis for our interactions with them, we’ll never get anywhere.
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Why are the GLBT Community permitted to force their moral values, views and ideas on the school systems?
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by every single mental health organization in America
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That is because most of those who work in the mental health organizations are member of far left education.
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@ 134 – I did indeed consider Robert Spitzer, but since Biblical literalists are rarely close readers and inclined to omit facts not supportive of their own distorted worldviews, I will educate you further on what Dr. Spitzer actually did and said.
In 2001, Spitzer delivered a controversial paper, Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? at the 2001 annual APA meeting; in that paper, Spitzer argued that it is possible that some highly motivated individuals could successfully change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Considering how difficult it had been to find 100 participants, and that they were considered the best cases of conversion therapy, Dr. Spitzer concluded that although change could occur, it was probably very rare.
The APA issued an official disavowal of Spitzer’s paper, noting that it had not been peer reviewed and stating that “[t]here is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.”[
Two years later, the paper was peer reviewed and published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. The publication decision sparked controversy, and one sponsoring member resigned in protest. The paper has been criticized for its sampling methods and criteria for success.
It may very well have gotten the gay community in an uproar, but it was certainly not over “truth”.
And while you may not see the value in public education, which certainly has its flaws, most of America seems to disagree with you.
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138 – Pastor, the GBLT Community is allowed to “force” its moral values and views and ideas on public school system because there seems to be a consensus that “Christian” parents don’t care to teach their children how to behave towards students who are different than them.
139 – Pastor, if you think that the mental health sciences are politically liberal, I hope that if you have an anxiety attack, you get a conservative one who will tell you to just pray and get over it before kicking you out of his office.
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Christian” parents don’t care to teach their children how to behave towards students who are different than them.
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There is no proof that the Christian Kids are the ones who are doing the bullying. You seem not to understand that…. What is happen is the GLBT Community are using this idea of bullying as a way to silence anyone who dare to speak out against them.
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139 – Pastor, if you think that the mental health sciences are politically liberal, I hope that if you have an anxiety attack, you get a conservative one who will tell you to just pray and get over it before kicking you out of his office.
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The different is the conservative one would to help the anxiety attack and what leads up to it. The present mental health sciences would try to tell you that you are ok and all we need to do is get a Government Program to annouce you anxiety is normal and nothing to worry about.
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the GBLT Community is allowed to “force” its moral values and views and ideas on public school system because there seems to be a consensus
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There is no consensus in support of the GLBT Community there is a consensus when put to a vote the GLBT Community loses time and time again.
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LUCY,
I will educate you further on what Dr. Spitzer actually did and said.
What is the ‘education’ you want me to know? I had read the whole Wikipedia article before posting and I just added the conclusion Spitzer made from his research. How does your ‘education’ effort change Spitzer’s conclusion “some people can change from gay to straight, and we ought to acknowledge that.”? Why do you get enraged over this conclusion?
What you also have to consider from the Wiki article is this:
In a 2005 interview, Spitzer stated that “[m]any colleagues were outraged” following the publication of the study. Spitzer added that “[w]ithin the gay community, there was initially tremendous anger and feeling that I had betrayed them.”
The vitriol towards Spitzer was after he concluded his peer reviewed research that change is possible and should be considered. The vitriol was against truth.
There’s an excellent film put out by Warren Throckmorton, I Do Exist, in which Dr Spitzer participated. Change is possible for those that seek change and are convicted that homosexual behavior is sinful.
Did Dr. Spitzer regret his participation in the video?
Yes and no. He did tell a questioner by email that he regretted his participation in anything that would deny equal rights to homosexuals. However, he also continues to believe that change may be possible for a small subset of individuals and that the professions should incorporate his findings into their position statements on the subject. Thus, he is fine with what he said on the video but he regrets any use of the film in an activist manner. I reproduced a transcript of my interview with Dr. Spitzer on my blog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBhW2q11qu8
Homosexual behavior is definitely a lightning rod issue, but truth should not be subverted for a specific cultural agenda such as the NEA and the activist gay community are perpetrating onto the nation. Change for some is possible, that truth should not be hidden. Environmental and free choice is vitally important WRT homosexuality and that should not be buried for the lie that they are born that way and can’t do anything about it. This buries any efforts to investigate the environmental and free choice conditions that spark the behavior. We should acknowledge the totality of the pathologies associated with homosexual behavior as well rather than hiding from them.
We should also acknowledge God’s truths towards homosexuals; love the sinner and hate the sin. God gave them over to a debased mind because they gave up the truth for lies and consider our whole culture has turned its collective back on God as many other nations have done through human history. We appear to be reaping His wrath.
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@ RHAWK, 145. As I pointed out, you glossed over the parts of the article you don’t like. That’s not responsible.
Further, you ignore the concept that you have stated that you want “Christian” students to be able to “witness” to other students, but that opens the door for others to “witness” to them. Also ignored is that an academic setting is probably not the best venue for that sort of thing.
You ask :Why do you get enraged over this conclusion?
I don’t. I just think you’re wrong.
I think it’s also fair to say that God hates the sins committed in the name of “Christianity”, but loves the sinners just the same.
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@ 142, Pastor, you need to read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/us/13bully.html
And your comment at 143 is so absurd as to be boring.
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Please nytime is guessing, that is no proof.
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The fact of the matter is, we are living in a godless society that have embraced and promote the very warning found in Romans 1.
Seeing the GLBTC Community forcing their values on school’s is not a shocker.
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@ 148 – Yes, Pastor, the NY Times staff reporter conducted no interviews or fact-checking, because that’s what journalists always do. And the moon is made of green cheese, the earth is flat, and Miami gets an average of 5 feet of snow every July.
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Seeing the GLBTC Community forcing their values on school’s is not a shocker.
Does the “C” stand for “Christianist”?
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And your comment at 143 is so absurd as to be boring.
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Let see the GLBT Life Stlye was consider a Mental Health Issue until the far left took over the Mnetal Health Groups, then they change the standard. They will not permitted anyone who disagrees with them to get their research published.
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Here’s a little more on the sex ed to kids topic, of which this is a part, whether they call it that or not. Lucy, read this, and see if you can maybe get a clue. Or is this not doing what the NYT contributors allege either? There’s an agenda, and it’s being forced on kids while trying to get around the parents.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/opinion/does-sex-ed-undermine-parental-rights.html?_r=1
“IMAGINE you have a 10- or 11-year-old child, just entering a public middle school. How would you feel if, as part of a class ostensibly about the risk of sexually transmitted diseases, he and his classmates were given “risk cards” that graphically named a variety of solitary and mutual sex acts? Or if, in another lesson, he was encouraged to disregard what you told him about sex, and to rely instead on teachers and health clinic staff members?
That prospect would horrify most parents. But such lessons are part of a middle-school curriculum that Dennis M. Walcott, the New York City schools chancellor, has recommended for his system’s newly mandated sex-education classes. There is a parental “opt out,” but it is very limited, covering classes on contraception and birth control.
Observers can quarrel about the extent to which what is being mandated is an effect, or a contributing cause, of the sexualization of children in our society at younger ages. But no one can plausibly claim that teaching middle-schoolers about mutual masturbation is “neutral” between competing views of morality; the idea of “value free” sex education was exploded as a myth long ago. The effect of such lessons is as much to promote a certain sexual ideology among the young as it is to protect their health.
But beyond rival moral visions, the new policy raises a deeper issue: Should the government force parents — at least those not rich enough to afford private schooling — to send their children to classes that may contradict their moral and religious values on matters of intimacy and personal conduct?
Liberals and conservatives alike should say no. Such policies violate parents’ rights, whether they are Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or of no religion at all. To see why, we need to think carefully about the parent-child relationship that gives rise to the duties that parental rights serve and protect.”
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And “That’s so gay.” as an insult is about as generiic as “That’s a perversion of the Great Commandment issued by Christ Himself.”
So is “do you have three mommies”. The two big difference is that one was direct at an individual and her family and the other was not directed at anyone in particular and the one was punished and the other was not. Of course the only difference that matters to you is which insulted groups is more likely to vote your way.
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What is happen here is all about control. The GLBT Community desire to control what will be the moral standards for our Nation. We see this with marriage, schools, mental health groups. They are focusing on the Schools, knowing that if they can change the minds of kids. They control the future of this Nation. If you do not surrender to their Moral Standard, or dare to speak out against them, they label you a bully or a bigot.
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@ 153 – AJ, the average age for girls to begin menstruating is around 10 – 12 these days. I’d rather them know more than less.
@ 154 – KBELLS, I would seriously encourage any student being bullied / “witnessed to” on the basis of their sexual orientation to respond by saying that the person doing it has Christianity all wrong and have perverted His teachings in favor of their own bigotry.
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the person doing it has Christianity all wrong and have perverted His teachings in favor of their own bigotry
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There you go again wanting to blame it on the Christian with out any real proof… But that is normal behavior for the supporters of the GLBT Community
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@ 153 – AJ, the average age for girls to begin menstruating is around 10 – 12 these days. I’d rather them know more than less
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It is not the schools job to teach kids about those issues.
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lucycat – there was no proof in the NY Time Story showing that the Christian’s were behind the bullying. All it showed was the Christian, were against the GLBT Community forcing their values onto the schools.
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The reason you want to blame the Christian Church because it helps you to be able to label us bigots and bullies. Even where there is no proof to back it up.
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lucycat
You want to talk about true bullying….. Look at the GLBT Community and their supporters did to people who supported Prop 8. The Community and supporters targeted people jobs, churches, homes….
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If it were simply determined by genetics, then boys with good fathers would be just as susceptible.
They are not.
Boys who’s fathers are present, active, and caring very very rarely ever, if at all, end up homosexual.
It is boys without fathers, whether absent, detatached or abusive that are far more likely to end up homosexual. Doesn’t mean they will, but the lack of the a clear good role model, esp early in age, opens that door up.
If it’s just genetics a good or bad father shouldn’t make a difference.
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156. huh?
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No, I do not think a kid being bullied for seeming gay who responds with a general insult to Christianity should be punished.
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Thorn
My Brother is gay. He had no relationship with our Father. No matter what my dad , my mother would stop my father. A great example of this is. Ever Sat. I went cutting wood with my dad, I went to a Flea Markert on Sudays. My brother would not get up nor would he help unload the wood or go the market with my father. When my dad try to make him, my mother would stop it. But if my dad would give me $10.00 for skating, my mother made my father give my brother $10.00.
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In my studis I read an article where the writer talked about most men who were gay had an over protective mother and a absent, detatached or abusive father.
My brother fit that perfectly.
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KBells,
I couldn’t help but think of your posts here when I read this. It seems fat people are now taking what you said to the next level.
http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2011/10/24/a_fat_pride_revolution
“I hate to admit it, but somehow, I missed a landmark publication from NYU Press. (This is all the more shameful in light of the fact that I earned my M.A. and Ph.D. from NYU.) The book in question came out in November, 2009, and it marked a watershed moment in fat studies, in particular, the field of women’s fat studies. (I kid you not.)
I’m speaking of The Fat Studies Reader, edited by Esther Rothblum and Sondra Solovay, winner of the 2010 Distinguished Publication Award from the Association for Women in Psychology as well as winner of the 2010 Susan Koppelman Award for the Best Edited Volume in Women’s Studies from the Popular Culture Association.
According to the blurb, “Edited by two leaders in the field, The Fat Studies Reader is an invaluable resource that provides a historical overview of fat studies, an in-depth examination of the movement’s fundamental concerns, and an up-to-date look at its innovative research.””
“If you think you see a pattern emerging (fat pride and gay pride; a fat gene and a gay gene), you’re right, as confirmed in Part 3 of the book, with chapters on, “Fat Youth as Common Targets for Bullying” along with “Double Stigma: Fat Men and Their Male Admirers.” Indeed, LGBT parallels are prominent in the book, especially in the chapter “No Apology: Shared Struggles in Fat and Transgender Law.” And, just as “gay” replaced “homosexual,” this book makes clear that “fat” should replace “obese.””
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@ 157 – 161 Oh, dear, Pastor, I must have hit a nerve. Sorry.
As to the stale theory that bad parenting causes gayness:
Tom Moon, a marriage and family therapist (MFT), explained in his Apr. 7, 2005 article “Absent Fathers, Smothering Mothers, and You,” published in the San Francisco Bay Times:
“The most influential source of the ‘absent father/overprotective mother’ theory of homosexuality, was a research project conducted by psychoanalyst Irving Bieber in the late 1960’s… His conclusion was that male homosexuality is caused by ‘paternal hostility and engulfing maternalism.’ Mothers of gay men were found to be seductive, babying, and controlling: fathers were distant, competitive, or hostile…
This was hardly a representative sample of gay men… the people who filled out the questionnaires that provided the ‘data’ were not the gay patients, but their psychiatrists. No gay men were allowed to speak for themselves about their own lives. This ‘research,’ then, turns out to be nothing more than an elaborate opinion poll of psychoanalysts in the sixties, who had already been trained to believe that gay people were suffering from ‘perversion,’ …
Despite the fact that Bieber’s conclusions were repudiated by mainstream psychology and psychiatry decades ago, the fringe, Christian right ‘reparative therapy’ movement continues to cite them in support of their ‘treatment.‘ Moreover, Bieber’s theories have seeped into the collective culture, and have become part of our folklore… For gay men who have been affected by these ideas, it can be helpful to look back at how they originated, and to understand that the ’scientific foundations’ of these conclusions are composed of nothing more substantial than hot air.”
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157 – 161 Oh, dear, Pastor, I must have hit a nerve. Sorry
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No nerve, just address your false ideas that your are prestenting.
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Despite the fact that Bieber’s conclusions were repudiated by mainstream psychology and psychiatry decades ago, the fringe, Christian right ‘reparative therapy’ movement continues to cite them in support of their ‘treatment.‘ Moreover, Bieber’s theories have seeped into the collective culture, and have become part of our folklore… For gay men who have been affected by these ideas, it can be helpful to look back at how they originated, and to understand that the ’scientific foundations’ of these conclusions are composed of nothing more substantial than hot air.”
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An his proof for such a statement is?
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It sounds like Tom Moon also has a problem with the Christian Faith.
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Also being published in the San Francisco Bay Times, reveals that it would be a report to back the GLBT Community and attack ay reports that may not support them.
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@ Pastor, I guess that the Bieber study being refuted by mainstream psychiatry decades ago means that LOTS of doctors have a problem with your version of the Christian faith. I suppose I don’t need to point out that yours is not the only one.
Just do yourself a favor: stop trying to buttress your faith with fake science. Your faith shouldn’t need that in order to survive in your soul.
Then there’s the pesky problems of the 9th commandment and the Great Commandment. The rhetoric of hate towards gay people isn’t conducive to a Christian spirit… no matter what sort of Christian faith one chooses.
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LUCY,
What part didn’t I like that I glossed over? How did you ‘educating me’ and my supposed glossing over change Dr Spitzers conclusion? It didn’t. Change to heterosexuality is possible for some homosexuals and this fact should not be ignored.
I don’t. I just think you’re wrong.
Wrong about what? Can you be specific?
You are correct that God hates all sin but still loves the sinners. He is also a just God and those that have not repented and believed on His Son by faith through God’s grace are committed to eternal damnation.
And while you may not see the value in public education, which certainly has its flaws, most of America seems to disagree with you.
What reliable source do you have to support this conclusion? History has already shown that where parents are offered vouchers to opt their children out of govt schools to attend private schools there is a huge waiting line for the vouchers. Most parents are stuck with no option due to lack of personal funds.
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@ RHAWK, 174.
The part where the study was flawed, repudiated, and ultimately deemed unreliable seemed to not make it into your comment. I call that glossing over the parts you don’t like.
I think you’re wrong that there is a choice component to sexual orientation, and if you disagree, I cordially invite you to tell us when you chose to be heterosexual and how many same-gender romantic relationships you had before you made that choice.
You are correct that God hates all sin but still loves the sinners. He is also a just God and those that have not repented and believed on His Son by faith through God’s grace are committed to eternal damnation.
Yes, I agree. “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” A lot of people who are unjust and unChristlike towards gay people are in for a big surprise when they meet their Maker.
As to public education, I’ve not read of a plethora of public school closings when vouchers are offered and accepted. As to “no option due to lack of funds”, there’s always homeschooling. School budgets in my area almost always pass. Most of our high schoolers go on to 4 year colleges. Parents seem quite pleased about this.
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Just do yourself a favor: stop trying to buttress your faith with fake science. Your faith shouldn’t need that in order to survive in your soul.
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The fake science is what is supporting the GLBT Community.
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Then there’s the pesky problems of the 9th commandment and the Great Commandment. The rhetoric of hate towards gay people isn’t conducive to a Christian spirit… no matter what sort of Christian faith one chooses.
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Jesus called people repent of their sins and turn to God. The GLBT Community and their supporters want to change the standard of sexual sins so people do not have to repent of it and turn to God. So you atempt at present the 9th commandment and the Great Commandment is not support by God’s Word.
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LUCY,
It was a peer reviewed report and accepted, though many protested. The peer reviewed report was not deemed unreliable. The paper he presented a couple of years earlier was disavowed, but not the final research report. Funny thing is, both the paper of 2001 and the research report of 2003 ended with the same conclusion; change is possible and should be acknowledged.
think you’re wrong that there is a choice component to sexual orientation, and if you disagree
I suggest you should take your disagreement up with the author of Incognito and with Dr Francis Collins. Their research and findings indicated otherwise. See posts 125 and 135.
A lot of people who are unjust and unChristlike towards gay people are in for a big surprise when they meet their Maker.
About 80% of the population claims they are Christian, yet only 4% have a Christian worldview who can be considered born-again evangelicals.
The quantity of vouchers was limited so govt schools were not shut down. That’s why there were waiting lines for more vouchers. The Democrats removed the voucher system from Wash DC because it was so successful. I would imagine that some staff reductions took place in govt schools and upsetting NEA.
With the necessity of dual income earners homeschooling is not much of an option. Though some parents do take their responsiblity to heart and made the homeschooling effort work with split shifts, etc. With a single parent household the chances are even less to homeschool.
Take Care
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Sorry should read
Jesus called people TO repent of their sins and turn BACK to God. The GLBT Community and their supporters want to change the standard of sexual sins, so people do not have to repent of it and turn BACK to God. So you atempt at present the 9th commandment and the Great Commandment is not support by God’s Word.
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16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
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Sorry how is speaking out against the gay life style go against the 9th Commandment?
But promoting and supporting Same-Sex Marriage does go aginst this Commanndment “12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you. ” Sine the passage is clear Honor your father and your mother. NOT Honor your father and father or mother and mother.
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Matthew 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
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So stand up against the GLBT Community goes against these passages how? If we love people and we see they are living a life that separates them from God. Should we not try to help them understand what is happen to them…. An that they are being lead a stray away from God.
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In order to encourage them to repent and turn back to God..
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“A lot of people who are unjust and unChristlike towards gay people are in for a big surprise when they meet their Maker.”
Would it be just and Christlike to lie about what we really, truly believe according to our understanding of His word? Our lives would be so much easier to just go along with the world on issues like homosexuality, abortion and universalism. Ever wonder why we can’t?
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@ RHAWK – I cordially invite you to marry yourself or one of your children off to an “ex-gay” person.
*crickets*
No person in their right mind would do such a thing. I suggest you visit http://www.respectmyresearch.org in order to see how the “Christian” right has been distorting science to say things it does not say, and how scientists are demanding retractions from the evil people who do it. (That’s where the 9th commandment comes into play.)
I said: A lot of people who are unjust and unChristlike towards gay people are in for a big surprise when they meet their Maker.
You replied: About 80% of the population claims they are Christian, yet only 4% have a Christian worldview who can be considered born-again evangelicals.
Numbers aside – that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.
And since you seem to think that the alternative to public education is none at all, I think I understand where you’re going with this.
Good luck.
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@Kbells 183: You can and should be honest about what you believe – that’s called integrity and I encourage it. I also think gay people would prefer to know who despises them enough to deprive them of equal protection under the law, and why. Being a closet bigot is probably analogous to being a closet homosexual: frustrating, sad, and anxiety-producing. By all means, be out and proud about your views about gays and God and the Bible.
But be aware that by doing so, you may be subject to some “witnessing” from others which you may not like to hear.
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I also think gay people would prefer to know who despises them enough to deprive them of equal protection under the law, and why.
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The American People want the standard of marriage to be between one man and one woman. That is why Same – Sex marriage losed when the American People vote on it. The Christian’s Who believe God’s Word is 100% true only make up a small part of the American People.
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Being a closet bigot is probably analogous to being a closet homosexual: frustrating, sad, and anxiety-producing. By all means, be out and proud about your views about gays and God and the Bible.
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Believing the GLBT Life is wrong does not make you a bigot. Standing up against the GLBT Community who have a desire to see their moral values, views and idea as the standards for this Nation, does not make you a bigot. Believing the Word of God is 100% True does not make you a bigot.
Going to people place of business, getting people fired because they supported Prop. 8, does make you a bigot. Defacing people’s church, cars, house, business, because they supported Prop. 8, does make you a bigot.
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But be aware that by doing so, you may be subject to some “witnessing” from others which you may not like to hear.
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Hey guess what lucycat, Christian’s want you to come up to us to talk about the issue. It gives us the chance to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and exmple the Word God and reveal the false idea’s that have been spread by the GLBT Community.
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186 – Pastor, civil rights should never be subject to a popular vote. In 1967, more than 70% of Americans polled believed that a black person should not be allowed to marry a white person. The Supreme Court told The American People to stick it.
And, you’re wrong about what The American People want on the gay marriage issue:
May 20, 2011
For First Time, Majority of Americans Favor Legal Gay Marriage
Republicans and older Americans remain opposed
by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ — For the first time in Gallup’s tracking of the issue, a majority of Americans (53%) believe same-sex marriage should be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages. The increase since last year came exclusively among political independents and Democrats. Republicans’ views did not change.
Not that it matters, mind you, because it still should not be subject to a vote, ever. But if it ever is, old people have this habit of dying, taking their prejudices with them to the grave.
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I suggest you visit http://www.respectmyresearch.org in order to see how the “Christian” right has been distorting science to say things it does not say, and how scientists are demanding retractions from the evil people who do it. (That’s where the 9th commandment comes into play.)
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Again that is from a far left groups, who got caught in their own research and must find away to change the meaning of their research to support the GLBT Community. Which agin 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.. Has nothing to do with it.
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Going to people place of business, getting people fired because they supported Prop. 8, does make you a bigot. Defacing people’s church, cars, house, business, because they supported Prop. 8, does make you a bigot.
Not sure how going to a place of business makes anyone a bigot, but the behavior described in your last sentence makes a person a criminal, who may or may not be a bigot.
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190 – Pastor, that comment has enough baloney in it to feed an army.
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lucycat
1. Gay Rights are not civil rights… The reason civil rights should never be based on people sexual behavior. That door gets oepn it leads to other sexual behavior having civil rights.
2. The Supreme Court told The American People marriage is between one man and one woman only. They did not change the standard of marriage unlike what the GLBT Community desires.
3. You can put out all the polls you want the facts, that is when put to a vote by the American People to pick between what the standard of marriage should be for the nation, between one man and one woman or the standard promoted by the GLBT Community… Marriage between one man and one woman has won… Time and Time agian.
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GLT Community, when the found out who was support Prop. 8 went to those people place of business and demanded the owner of the business to fire those people…
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190 – Pastor, that comment has enough baloney in it to feed an army.
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What if full of baloney is the sites you keep posting to try and prove you point.
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1) It’s not about sex, it’s about love. Relationships and commitments are important to true conservatives because they stabilize society. Gay people deserve an equal shot at couplehood. As to other sexual behaviors, they are irrelevant to this discussion.
2) The Supreme Court in Loving v. VA said that the will of The American People on interracial marriage was completely unimportant – it was a civil right. They disregarded all poll data on the subject. And the language from the final opinion: “The right to marry a person of one’s choosing…” is gender-neutral and will come up again, very soon.
3)The poll I chose is quite recent and reputable. It’s only a matter of time before DOMA goes the way of the dodo. There’s only so much funding people are willing to throw at restricting the rights of others, and in this economy, food and mortgage payments probably take precedence over tossing cash at faux-Christian hate groups.
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My point is proven. If you disagree, contact the scientists who posted there and take it up with them.
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1) It’s not about sex, it’s about love. Relationships and commitments are important to true conservatives because they stabilize society. Gay people deserve an equal shot at couplehood. As to other sexual behaviors, they are irrelevant to this discussion.
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It is all about their sexual behavior it is not about love.. an other sexual behaviors are relevant to this discussion. Because when you give civil rights to the GLBT Community based on their sexual behavior it opens the door to other groups.
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2) The Supreme Court in Loving v. VA said that the will of The American People on interracial marriage was completely unimportant – it was a civil right. They disregarded all poll data on the subject. And the language from the final opinion: “The right to marry a person of one’s choosing…” is gender-neutral and will come up again, very soon.
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No, the Supreme Court in Loving v. VA took race out of the question and stated that marriage is between one man and one woman.
“The right to marry a person of one’s choosing…” is gender-neutral and will come up again, very soon — An if the American People vote on it, It will be defeat aginn. If far left judges have a say or A GAY JUDGE as in Prop. 8 have a say then the GLBT Commuinty will win.
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@ 198 – Pastor, you think gay couples are incapable of love? Really? How sad for you.
This is from 7 years ago:
“There are studies that find that the majority of gay men and lesbians want enduring relationships,” said Esther Rothblum, a psychology professor at University of Vermont who is conducting her own study on couples united in civil unions in Vermont in 2000-2001, the first year after the legislation was enacted there. Moreover, while very few longitudinal studies on gay legal unions exist, “my guess is that, again, what you’re going to find is that lesbians and gay men who get married are going to stay in relationships longer than the ones who don’t,” she said.
On average, the 400 couples in Rothblum’s civil union study had been together for 11 to 12 years by the time they made it official, she said.
This is even older:
Darren Spedale, a law and business student at Stanford University, studied divorce rates in Denmark in 1996-97, seven years after same-sex registered partnerships were legalized. He found that 17 percent of gay partnerships ended in divorce compared with 46 percent of the straight relationships.
Want more current information? Google it yourself.
This doesn’t open any other doors – any other discussion of other types of relationships will have to be had on its own merits.
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3)The poll I chose is quite recent and reputable. It’s only a matter of time before DOMA goes the way of the dodo. There’s only so much funding people are willing to throw at restricting the rights of others, and in this economy, food and mortgage payments probably take precedence over tossing cash at faux-Christian hate groups.
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There you go agin, not undestanding the issue it is not about restricting the rights of others. It is about marriage and whose standard of marriage will this nation vote on. The American People decided marriage between one man and one woman. Liberal Judges decide for the GLBT Community views.
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“take precedence over tossing cash at faux-Christian hate groups. ” Wow, now that is a hatful statment. Since FOCUS is not a hate group, I know you are not talking about them. An since the Christian Community are not hate groups, I know you are not talking about them. We do not support the GLBT Community desire to force their moral values onto society. So I do not know which hate group you are talking about.
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@ 198 – Pastor, you think gay couples are incapable of love? Really? How sad for you.
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No, what I am saying is their lust for Gay Rights are based on their sexual behavior.
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Civil Rights are based on the Color of one skin (which means all men and woman have the same right), Their Nationality (which means all men and woman have the same right), Their citizen ship (which means all men and woman have the same right). Etc.. Now of these rights are bases on someone sexual desires…
Ga Rights come down to them want rights based on their sexual desires…Not based on being a man and woman, the reason they already have those rights…
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@ Pastor -202: Here’s a good list of hate groups. FOCUS isn’t on it, probably because it’s falling apart at the seams. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners
@ 203 – That makes no sense whatsoever.
@ 204 – That doesn’t make a lot of sense either.
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All men (who are legally here) have the right to marry a woman, vote, get a drive license, to work, own properties, go to school etc.
All women (who are legally here) have the right to marry a man, vote, get a drive license, to work, own properties, go to school etc.
Our Nation has restriction on marriage other Nations do not -You can only be married to one person at one time, There is an age restriction, A family restriction, yes a restriction on man on man or woman on woman etc. When you start to rewards rights based on sexual attraction / behavior (or LOVE), then you must apply it equal across the boards, you can not pick an choice. No matter who you feel about such relationship….
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@ 204 – That doesn’t make a lot of sense either.
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Civil Rights are based on the Color of one skin (which means all men and woman have the same right),
Civil Rights are based on people Nationality (which means all men and woman have the same right),
Civil Rights are based on people citizen ship (which means all men and woman have the same right). Etc..
No of these rights are bases on someone sexual desires…
Gay Rights come down to them want rights based on their sexual desires…Not based on being a man and woman, the reason they already have those rights…
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@ 203 – That makes no sense whatsoever.
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@ 198 – Pastor, you think gay couples are incapable of love? Really? How sad for you.
No, what I am saying is their lust(desire) for Gay Rights are based on their sexual behavior.
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@ Pastor -202: Here’s a good list of hate groups. FOCUS isn’t on it, probably because it’s falling apart at the seams. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners
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Another far left web site.
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Sorry this should read
Our Nation has restriction on marriage other Nations do not -You can only be married to one person at one time, There is an age restriction, A family restriction, yes a restriction on man on man or woman on woman etc. When you start to rewards rights based on sexual attraction / behavior (or LOVE), then you must apply it equal across the boards, you can not pick an choice. No matter “HOW” you feel about such relationship….
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lucycat – If 14 year old little Betty is in love with 35 years old John and they want to get married. Based on your arugement of reward civil rights due to “LOVE”.. You must permitted them to marry.
If 20 year old Jill is in love with her 25 year old brother and they want to get married. Based on your arugement of reward civil rights due to “LOVE”.. You must permitted them to marry.
Based on your arugement all restriction on marriage must be removed.
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They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:25-27.
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Boring now, Pastor.
I’m pretty sure that sexual desire plays a role in almost every marriage, gay or straight, at some point. It comes down to commitment and protection and rights and responsibilities, no matter what.
@ 211 – False analogy, and tired to boot. Betty is not of age to consent. (Though not that long ago and in certain places today, her consent would not matter.)
Jill and her brother will have babies with three heads or worse, and there are serious mental health concerns involved with incest.
And 53% of Our Nation thinks gay couples deserve equal protection under the law, and it’s already the law of the land in several states and municipalities, so it seem that Our Nation is not in full agreement with you.
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@ 212 Ricky:
First of all, it is important to notice that although Paul clearly refers to sexual acts between males, it is not clear at all that he is referring to lesbian behavior. Not only does Paul distinguish women from men, but just where the parallelism of the two verses would lead us to expect it he specifically avoids saying anything like “woman committing shameless acts with women.” It is only in the case of men that Paul specifies homosexual sex as the “unnatural” behavior he objects to. So Paul may be thinking of some other behavior by women.
Be that as it may, the usual gay Christian interpretation of this passage is that Paul had little concept of a life-long homosexual orientation and so regarded homosexual acts as a deviation from a natural heterosexuality by people who were unusually lustful or wanton or rebellious. In that case Paul’s argument would not apply homosexuality as we understand it today.
That may well be true. But, even if so, exactly what theological point Paul was trying to make about homosexual behavior is far from clear and, on closer examination, seems far different from what both gay and anti-gay Christians assume. But that point emerges only when the verses are seen in context of the whole section (or “pericope”) where they appear: Romans 1:18-32.
In this insistent and repetitious passage dense with “therefores” and “becauses” that obscure a lack of real argument, Paul asserts that his God’s eternal power and deity (singularity, omnipotence) were once perceptible through the “eye of reason” by all men in the things God created.
But despite this evidence for an invisible, transcendent God, people refused to honor and worship him and being “vain in their reasoning” invented pagan gods – “created things,” “images resembling mortal man, or birds, or animals or reptiles.” (Notice, in passing, the glancing allusion to deified emperors.)
In other words, Paul claims that knowledge of his God had been available and that people who refused to acknowledge him were led astray by their own thinking “and their misguided minds are plunged into darkness.” Referring to the ancient Greek and Roman poets, priests and intellectuals, Paul says, “They boast of their wisdom, but they have made fools of themselves.”
And because they fail to acknowledge Paul’s invisible God, nothing keeps them from depraved reason and wrong conduct. Here is Paul: “God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves BECAUSE they have bartered away the true God for a false one …” (Romans 1:24-25, emphasis added).
The word “because” is key. Paul is offering his explanation for homosexual desire and behavior – as well as a generic explanation for other things he regards as improper – including people who are “gossips, slanderers, insolent, haughty, haters of God, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless,” etc. (Romans 1:28-31)
So Paul’s argument refers to cultures that rejected an earlier natural knowledge of God available by the eye of reason and turned to worship other, visible, pagan gods. And it is the worship of pagan gods that leads them to engage in these various types of conduct Paul deplores.
Put the other way around, Paul’s claim is that homosexual desire and behavior are (are only?) the result of belief in pagan gods. And belief in pagan gods comes about when people reject the light of reason and place more confidence in their own theological imaginings.
But if that is so, then Paul’s claim about the origin and significance of homosexual desire and conduct can hardly apply to people who did not reject an earlier belief in God and turn to pagan gods. Specifically, it hardly applies to homosexuals who are Christians or Christians who come to realize their homosexuality. Paul amateur theologico-psychologizing has no explanation for such a thing.
Furthermore, it is not clear in any case how a supposed primordial belief in or “perception” of a unitary, transcendent god could have provided anyone with a particular ethical code, much less any specific commands about sexual behavior. Paul was clearly aware of that difficulty because he struggled to fill the gap later by postulating that some pagans have the law “by nature,” “written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15). But he is unable to explain – nor does he try to explain – how this happens or why some peoples do and others do not have it “by nature.”
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And 53% of Our Nation thinks gay couples deserve equal protection under the law, and it’s already the law of the land in several states and municipalities, so it seem that Our Nation is not in full agreement with you.
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Agin 53% of Our Nation does added up when the people vote on the issue An already the law of the land in several states and municipalities, because of Liberal Judges and Liberal State/House and Mayors who refuse to let the people decide.
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@ 211 – False analogy, and tired to boot. Betty is not of age to consent. (Though not that long ago and in certain places today, her consent would not matter.)
Jill and her brother will have babies with three heads or worse, and there are serious mental health concerns involved with incest.
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when civil rights are reward based of sexual behavior /”Love” all age of consent and mental health concerns are no longer a reason to stop it from happen.
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If you have small children, you may want to see if you can relocate to Asia or Latin America. The church is growing there and in many of the countries, the governments do not actively promote perversion. If such a move is not possible, small towns in the South and Midwest are safer than the rest of America. On the West Coast and in the Northeast, expect your children to be bombarded with homosexuality in the same way that they would be bombarded with sex and alcohol in college fraternities and sororities.
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@ 216 – Absurdity in its purest form.
@ 217 – Ricky: Yes, Asia, where China’s one-child policy leads to tens of thousands of aborted female babies each year, and where child prostitution is encouraged. And Latin America, where tourists regularly disappear. And the American South, where obesity, unemployment and teen pregnancy rates are off the charts. Please go to these places and take your children with you.
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@ 216 – Absurdity in its purest form.
Why it is the same arugement you are using in promoting gay rights. I justed used it to enclude other sexual behavior where the people are in love.
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@ 216 – Absurdity in its purest form.
Oh by the way lucycat, that is how the Christian Community views Gay Rights that it is Absurdity in its purest form.
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@214 – that is not true Pauls views on homosexual desire are clear it is a sexual sin. The Christian Community has spoken out aginst homosexuality.
Now it is not clear to the churches that have left God’s Word to embrace and promote homosexualty as been normal.
Lets be clear about that.
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185. “Witness” to me all you want. Leave my child out of it. I don’t discuss sex, religion or politics with other people’s children without their permission and I expect the same curiosity. And that includes the schools. What is the definition of a bigot; someone winning an argument with a liberal.
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You, Pastor, do not speak for The Christian Community, but rather a very small portion of it. Nor do you speak for Our Nation, although you seem to think that you do. Grandiose delusions are often the root of gross generalizations.
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@ 222 – Kbells, I don’t really care to speak to children I have no responsibility for or relation to about sex, religion or politics. But public schools have a responsibility to teach about the world at large, and those topics will inevitably come up. And I know you meant to type “courtesy”, but “curiosity” is probably going to be the larger problem with your children. You could always lock them in the basement until they are 30, but that may not work out so well for either of you.
The definition of a bigot in this instance is someone who thinks that a person or group of persons is inherently inferior and not entitled to equal protection under the law.
And this isn’t about “winning an argument”, much less “with a liberal”. There are many, many conservative arguments in favor of gay marriage. They are mostly here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/7288718/why-conservatives-should-welcome-gay-marriage.thtml
And if this was indeed a competition, you would be well and truly trounced by the author of that piece.
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You, Pastor, do not speak for The Christian Community, but rather a very small portion of it.
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When trapped revisers, the facts… The views you have been presentng has been rejected by the Christian Community. The Churches that have embraced your point of view have been losing members and they can not get their programs on Christian’s TV or Christian’s Radio, They can not get their books in Christian’s Book Store.
The are no longer being view as part of the Christian’s Community.
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You, Pastor, do not speak for The Christian Community, but rather a very small portion of it.
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When trapped revisers, the facts… The views you have been presentng has been rejected by the Christian Community. The Churches that have embraced your point of view have been losing members and they can not get their programs on Christian’s TV or Christian’s Radio, They can not get their books in Christian’s Book Store.
They are no longer being view as part of the Christian’s Community.
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Nor do you speak for Our Nation, although you seem to think that you do.
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The fact again do not support your statement. When the American people get the chance to vote on marriage. Same sex marriage is defeated.
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I have spoken to my child about homosexuality and that discussion included my expectation that he treat all people with equal dignity, respect and kindness.
We do not think gays are inferior just that they are wrong about some things and it is these anti-bully people who are by your definition bigots. Nerds, fat kids and Mormons are not getting equal protection to gays.
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Grandiose delusions are often the root of gross generalizations.
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That sums up your comments here. There are root of gross generalizations… The lack all Bibical Understanding.
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@218- The peoples of many other nations are turning to God and are being blessed. I am afraid Americans (for a long time now) have been turning away from God and we are now suffering the consequences.
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“Put the other way around, Paul’s claim is that homosexual desire and behavior are (are only?) the result of belief in pagan gods.”
Which would include just about any idol. Not just the big Greek/Roman gods.
It would include oneself.
In rejecting God, you are declaring independence. Even if you subject yourself to false idol/god, there’s not a difference.
Atheism for instance, wasn’t big then. But it doesn’t matter for it’s just the denial of God in the first place that leads to degradation and perversion.
Pagan gods are just the example, but we are idol factories as Calvin would put it, and how much more dangerous is the subtle idol that we don’t acknowledge.
“Furthermore, it is not clear in any case how a supposed primordial belief in or “perception” of a unitary, transcendent god could have provided anyone with a particular ethical code”
Genesis 2, Exodus 20.
A man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they shall become one is laid out from the start.
You can’t reproduce society via homosexuality. It’s a leech. Not even nature works via homo sexuality. It entirely rejects the premise.
Homosexuality is largely from early environment, not genetics. It can be changed, although it is hard because it is years of experience of trying to often fill a void they don’t understand.
It is not for current love that they want the same sex. It is often because of love they never had.
See if we can chose between a red head and a blonde, how is it any less that we are choosing which sex? See being human, even if we like red heads more than blondes, doesn’t mean we have to chose them. We can deny preferences, even if it’s genetics.
And you’ll find plenty of gays who believe they chose to be gay.
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The definition of a bigot in this instance is someone who thinks that a person or group of persons is inherently inferior and not entitled to equal protection under the law.
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equal protection under the law does not mean special rights under the law. The GLBT Community desire to have their view of marriage as the standard for the Nation. They desire hate crime laws written to be used against anyone who dare to challenge them.
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You, Pastor, do not speak for The Christian Community, but rather a very small portion of it.
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Since most of us, here are part of The Christian Community but members of different Chruches… Seem to be in a agreement here in the understand of Homosexuality as being wrong in the eyes of God and the your views that you have been promoting are wrong.
and are in conflict with God’s Word
why is that? Since you have been tellig me you views are in the majority view of the Christian Community.
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sorry should read
Since most of us, here are part of The Christian Community but members of different Chruches… Seem to be in a agreement here in the understand of Homosexuality as being wrong in the eyes of God and the views that you have been promoting are wrong, and are in conflict with God’s Word.
why is that? Since you have been tellig me you views are in the majority view of the Christian Community.
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@ 228 – Kbells, good job. But you’re wrong about anti-bullying rules in school. They apply to everyone.
@ 231 – Thorn, really. There is scientific refutation to your statements to be had in quantities too great to list here. But your last sentence is a doozy. How many same-sex encounters did you have before you chose your sexual orientation? A quick little smooch in the school cloakroom? Or a full-on Republican politician toilet toe-tap?
As to reproduction, so what? Lots of people are infertile, and lots of gay couples give a loving home to children thrown aside by their (by definition) heterosexual parents. I suppose rotting in an institution is the fate you prefer for such children, but, well – society at large disagrees. Not exactly leech behavior.
See if we can chose between a red head and a blonde, how is it any less that we are choosing which sex? See being human, even if we like red heads more than blondes, doesn’t mean we have to chose them. We can deny preferences, even if it’s genetics.
Thorn, if you are male and single, please ask a lesbian out on a date. When she declines, ask her why. In the alternative, since you think you can deny preferences, if you are male and heterosexual, please ask a gay man out on a date and see how it goes. Absurdity has no bounds when people try to justify hate.
@ 232 – Pastor, I think hate crime laws should be repealed, especially the ones that punish hate crimes based on a person’s religion. It punishes a thought rather than an action, and if an army of gay people want to bash “Christians” coming out of church on Sunday morning, all they should be charged with is simple assault and battery.
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please answer my question at #234 lucycat
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Well said, Thorn @ #231
Remember II Peter 3:15-16:
“…as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
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Amen Phos
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Lucycat
why on a Christian Web Site are you having a hard time getting your views being accepted as a Christian View?
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235. “But you’re wrong about anti-bullying rules in school. They apply to everyone.”
Tell that to Rachael Zimmer and Rebekah Rice
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Tell that to the teachers who are facing losing their jobs for posting on their own personal face book page, their on the gay marriage.
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sorry should read
Tell that to the teachers who are facing losing their jobs for posting on their own personal face book page, their oWn PERSOANL VIEW ON gay marriage and programs like the one here in this story.
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LUCY,
Public relations and exagerations are rampant in this hot topic. Much like the hoax of manmade global warming and Darwinian evolution is fact.
This is what I referenced about Dr Francis Collins.
As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.
Dr. Collins succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and offers the following: “An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations.”
Dr. Collins noted that environment, particularly childhood experiences as well as the role of free will choices affect all of us in profound ways. As researchers discover increasing levels of molecular detail about inherited factors that underlie our personalities, it’s critical that such data be used to illuminate, not provide support to idealogues.
Citing such dangers, Dr. Collins referred to the book written by activist Dean Hamer who declared the discovery of the God Gene (this same author also is associated with “discovering the gay gene”).
Dr. Collins noted that the “evidence” in Hamer’s book “grabbed headlines,” but was “wildly overstated.”
As you can see, homosexual activist Dean Hamer is, well, less than honest.
You may find this article enlightening. Please note that it is not one of those “extreme right wing Christian” publications nor about a Christian who made a persoanl choice to change.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2007/08/gay-choice-science-sexual-identity
Change is possible and it should be acknowledged. Do you deny this statement?
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@ RHAWK, 243: A quote from Dr. Collins: But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.
No bias there, at all.
A few other questions, first.
1) When and how did you choose your sexual orientation? Be precise, please.
2) Since you posit that change is possible and should be acknowledged, do you think it is possible for heterosexuals to become homosexual in their sexual orientation?
3) What do you make of the numerous refutations of reparative therapy by every mental health organization in America?
4) Would you marry, or encourage a loved one to marry, a person who was previously gay but claimed to no longer be?
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@ 240 – Kbells – At least Ms. Zimmer and Ms. Rice are still alive. They weren’t bullied to suicide like countless kids who are perceived to be gay, whether they are or not.
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LUCY,
Since you posit that change is possible and should be acknowledged, do you think it is possible for heterosexuals to become homosexual in their sexual orientation?
Yes, as evidenced by the existence of homosexuals. The scientific opinions indicate that all are born heterosexuals but change after birth due to environmental factors and free will choice. There is no gay gene.
Dr Robert Spitzer, with his peer reviewed study, already refutes that there is no possibility of change along with testimonies by former gays and lesbians that change is possible and we, as a nation, should acknowledge that fact and not continue to hide from it and perpetuate the lies as NEA and the gay community is doing.
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” Thorn, really. There is scientific refutation to your statements to be had in quantities too great to list here. But your last sentence is a doozy. How many same-sex encounters did you have before you chose your sexual orientation?”
There is scientific support as well. You are just choosing whoever fits your bias.
And, one does not need to touch a burner on an oven stove to know that it is hot. In other words, experience is not necessary to have knowledge.
“As to reproduction, so what? Lots of people are infertile”
Infertility is a defect. Are you saying homosexuality is also a defect? Adoption is irrelevant to any justification for homosexuality. You would not let a drunk drive a car, just because there are no sober people present.
“Absurdity has no bounds when people try to justify hate.”
Then why are you being absurd in your attempt to justify homosexuality?
You just deflect, rather than dealing with the points raised.
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@245 what about the teacher who are in trouble because the GLBT Community do not like they stated on their personal facebook… That is bullying also… but its that bullying people who stand against the GLBT Community is ok.
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A lucycat do you think your views on these issue are Bibical Based or Worldly Based?
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245. Do you have stats to back up “countless”? Of course if you had stats it would no longer be “countless”.
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kBells – I am still trying to understand how she can make the statement that my views on these issues are the views of only a small group of Christian.
Which would mean her views on these issue are the views of the majority of the Christian Community.
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“A few other questions, first.”
Lucy, I don’t think you even get the argument.
If you want to run off and be gay, go ahead.
But if there is one gay, who gives up being gay, then choice is in the least a possibility. That genetics are not the sole determiner.
RWHawk mentions twins. IF it were solely genetics then both twins should always be gay when at least one is. That is clearly not the case. Despite the SAME EXACT DNA, environment influences their personalities, their differences, even their fingerprints.
And that’s the argument. Homosexuality is not genetically determined. A person may be more attracted to the same sex just as one person may be more attracted to red heads, but this is by and large environmentally determined. You can always change your preference if you want to.
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I am hoping and praying, Kballs, after lucycat encounter here with the Christian Community. That she would see that her views are not shared by the Christian Community nor is her views Biblically Based. An that she would reconsider her views based on what everyone here has showed her.
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@ 250 – Kbells: Google Anoka / Henepin gay bullying to see a good example (not) of how bullying has impacted one school district. One dead kid is one too many. It’s a lot different than two obnoxious girls who got their tender fee-fees hurt.
Since you seem to be (intellectually) lazy, here’s a link for your reading pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bashing#Statistics_and_examples
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@253 – Pastor, this is the least Christian “community” I have ever encountered. Your posts are a perfect example of the hardened heart, the death of human expression Christ’s love for mankind.
I will pray for your soul.
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@ 252 – Thorn, I find it fascinating that you would make the logical leap from the fact that I think gay people should be treated equally under the law to the idea that I must be gay myself. I wonder why that is? Do you think you are somehow insulting me with such a statement? I can assure you that you are not. I can’t even say “Nice try.”, because it’s so illogical as to be ridiculous.
The fact is that it does not matter what causes gayness. Gay people are here. They aren’t going anywhere. They don’t need fixing. What they need is the opportunity to live their lives in peace, work and go to school in peace, and be treated like everyone else is under the law. That’s all. Not sure why that’s so hard for you to understand.
Your posts are pretty nasty for a so-called “Christian” person.
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“Pastor, this is the least Christian “community” I have ever encountered. Your posts are a perfect example of the hardened heart, the death of human expression Christ’s love for mankind.”
Why because I refuse to let you spread the lie that God’s is ok with the Gahy Life LStlye?
Or is it because I refuse to let you spread the false teaching that God’s Word says same sex marriage is not wrong and being gay is not wrong.
or is it because I refuse to buy into the World’s View of the GLBT Community.
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hardened heart, the death of human expression Christ’s love for mankind.
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When someone is trapped in sin, do we just sit back let them die in sin and end up in hell, or do we try to reach them? Do we just sit back an let the prevision of the Word of God by the GLB Community and their supporters. Which is leading people down the path of destruction or do we stand up against it.
If sitting back an doing nothing to stop the spred of lies and the prevision of the Word of God, in the name of expressing Christ’s love for mankind. Then you have a very poor undeerstand of the Word of God and being the witness for Christ.
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Sorry should read
“Pastor, this is the least Christian “community” I have ever encountered. Your posts are a perfect example of the hardened heart, the death of human expression Christ’s love for mankind.”
Why because I refuse to let you spread the lie that God’s is ok with the Gay Life Stlye?
Or is it because I refuse to let you spread the false teaching that God’s Word says same sex marriage is not wrong and being gay is not wrong.
or is it because I refuse to buy into the World’s View of the GLBT Community.
or is it because you understand that your view now has been rejected by the Christian Community and you do not want to repent, so in stead you are looking for an escape goat to easy your spirit.
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The fact is that it does not matter what causes gayness. Gay people are here. They aren’t going anywhere. They don’t need fixing.
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They need salavtion, which would fixs their sinful condition, but as long as false christian and churches that have left God and His Word tells them they do not have to repent of their sexual sins. These people will be trapped in their sins.
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What they need is the opportunity to live their lives in peace, work and go to school in peace, and be treated like everyone else is under the law.
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They have that.. What they want is society to change their views and laws to support their sexual needs.
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Thorn – “Your posts are pretty nasty for a so-called “Christian” person”
Kbells – “Since you seem to be (intellectually) lazy,”
Pastor – “Your posts are a perfect example of the hardened heart, the death of human expression Christ’s love for mankind.”
The common thread is that everyone of us have told you that yours views are not right and goes aginst God’s Word. In our own fashion.
Why can you not understand that.
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sorry should read
Or is it because I refuse to let you spread the false teaching that God’s Word says same sex marriage is ok and being gay is ok. When the Word of God is clear marriage is between one man and one woman, and any sexual relationship out side of this marriage is called a sexual sin.
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@ 257 – Pastor, let’s get something straight up front. You do NOT have the power to refuse to let me do anything. You can disagree all you like, and pervert the Bible to support your own antedeluvian worldview, and spread your own false, hate-based teachings. It’s been done before with racism and miscegnation, and it will continue as long as one man hates another.
At least I am not laboring under the delusion that I can “refuse to let” you do so. Even if I had the authority or power to do so, you seem far too agitated on the subject.
All I can do is pray for your soul. May Christ’s love – as expressed by His ultimate sacrifice – come to your heart and give you peace on this issue.
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“Thorn, I find it fascinating that you would make the logical leap from the fact that I think gay people should be treated equally under the law to the idea that I must be gay myself. I wonder why that is? Do you think you are somehow insulting me with such a statement”
The statement was in general, not directed personally.
If a person wants to be gay, go right ahead.
“The fact is that it does not matter what causes gayness. Gay people are here. They aren’t going anywhere.”
If it does not matter, then why are you arguing what causes it?
Sure, some are here now. But there were relatively few in the past in America. Which means the growth is due to environmental factors, not genetics.
“Your posts are pretty nasty for a so-called “Christian” person.”
What was nasty about them? You infer a tone out of your own bias, that is not present in anything I wrote.
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@ 257 – Pastor, let’s get something straight up front. You do NOT have the power to refuse to let me do anything. You can disagree all you like, and pervert the Bible to support your own antedeluvian worldview, and spread your own false, hate-based teachings. It’s been done before with racism and miscegnation, and it will continue as long as one man hates another
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Wow you have a problem with God and His Word to act in such a manner.
As for the perverting the Bible, where have I done that? I have shown where you have perverted in the promoting of sin. Show where I have done it
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It’s been done before with racism and miscegnation, and it will continue as long as one man hates another.
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Where is the hate I posted here. Where is hate that anyone of us posted here?
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You have try to promote and defend homosexuality here. By saying that God is ok with and society is ok with it, and that people who are gay can not change. Each an every one of us here have taken issue with your views. An shown thru God’s Word where you are wrong, thru other mental health written where you are wrong.
Any you have time and time again reject us, reject the Word of God and reject other mental health written. You have declare that we are perverting God’s Word because we are standing up for God’s View on marriage. We are perverting God’s Word because, we have called a sexual sin “A SEXUAL SIN” You have called us spreader of hate because we refuse to except you view of the GLBT Community. You called one person lazy because she has reveal the errors of your views.
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Maybe you need to take a step back an consider this. You are the only one here promote and defend homosexuality here. By saying that God is ok with and society is ok with it, and that people who are gay can not change.
All the Christian’s here (we all come from different churches) are in agreement on this issue. The only one who has a disagreement here is you. You are the only one who seem not to understand God’s View on this issue. Every one of us (again all from different churches) understand God’s View on this issue. Why is that? Why are you the only one who is having problem here with the Christians?
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We are dealing with people who are trapped in a sexual sin that is separating them from God. The only hope these people have in order not to face God’s judgment that is coming . Is not found in the Mental Health Groups (which can help deal with life) or bullying programs (no one should be bully), it is found in God’s Word that point the people to Jesus Christ.
But you and other seem to not want to point this out to the GLBT Community. They can not per God’s Word entry heavens gates living in sexual sins. They must repent of their sins (which includes their sexual sins) and come to the saving knowledge of Christ. They can not do this as long as people are teaching them the false teaching that God is ok with the way they are living and God is ok with same sex marriage.
I am sorry but that view goes against the Word of God. You can quote all the polls you want and all the Mental Health writers you want, you can provided all the bullying programs you want and try to change all society views and laws you want.
It will not provide freedom from their sexual sins, they will not draw them closers to God. Only at the cross of Jesus Christ can they find freedom from their sexual sins and open the door for them to draw closer to God.
Sexual Sins are not easy to over come, but with Christ help they can and will be set free.
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lucycat – if you want to call my comment at @270 hatful go ahead, if you want to call it pervert go ahead. It just reveals who out of touch with the God’s Word and the Christian Community you are.
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sorry should read
lucycat – if you want to call my comment at @270 hatful go ahead, if you want to call it pervert go ahead. It just reveals HOW out of touch with the God’s Word and the Christian Community you are.
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“It’s a lot different than two obnoxious girls who got their tender fee-fees hurt.”
Judgmental aren’t we?
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lucycat – You do not like having your views challenged do you?
The fact of the matter is you are not able to spread your false teaching here, without someone stepping up an tell you no that is not right and that goes against God’s Word. An it upset you bery much.
You issue is not with me, kBells, thron.. We are just the people standing up and speaking out against your false ideas. You issue is with God and His Word, and the fact you are rejecting the truth of His word on these issues, to embrace society views on these issues.
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Judgmental aren’t we?
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kBells – that is all she has… she does not have God’s Word on her side… She has just soceity views and that leads to a judgmental spirit when it comes to dealing with God, His Word and the Christian Community.
What sadden me are not people like lucycat, they have made their decission.. It is people who are entrapped by the false teaching that lucycat and other are promoting. Those who are trapped are being told not to listen truth of God’s Word.. An that sadden me.
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These people who are trapped in this false teaching / sexual sin need help. The Christian Church is here to support and encourage them to turn to God. The problem is these poor souls have been told not to listen to the Christian Community.
They have been sold into this idea that the Christian hate them and want to see them outlaw. Which is a lie. These poor souls have no idea they are walk a path that leads them away from God..
We must pray for them and try our best to reach out to them.
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“Thorn, I find it fascinating that you would make the logical leap from the fact that I think gay people should be treated equally under the law to the idea that I must be gay myself.”
Where are they not treated equally by the law?
And further, why can’t you answer any question, except with a personal attack or an attempt to discredit someone you just don’t agree with?
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LUCYCAT says (#256), “…I think gay people should be treated equally under the law.”
I have not tracked this thread from its beginning, so this may have been addressed by others. Nevertheless, I’d like to express my thoughts on this concept.
Let’s say a state passes a law that makes it illegal to drive while drunk. It does so because, in the judgment of the majority of its citizens, reflected in a valid lawmaking act of its elected representatives, driving drunk is harmful enough to society to merit its prohibition.
Now, let’s say that there are alcoholics and alcohol-treatment experts in that state who classify alcoholism as a disease, and affirm that a person who has that disease has a very difficult time refraining from drinking. Additionally, lets say scientific studies have found a gene that makes some people more susceptible to alcoholism than others.
So far, I believe that this hypothetical scenario is close to reality.
Now it seems obvious that a law prohibiting drunk driving constrains the lifestyle of a person with a biologically-driven, or disease-driven drinking problem much more than it does a person with no such proclivity. Furthermore, if a gene can be shown to make a person almost always constrained to drink, and another person without the gene has no such constraint, the law has an unequal impact on those two people.
However, the law itself makes no distinction between one person or the other. In itself it is oblivious to those distinctions, and addresses harmful behavior only, for the good of all.
It is sad and seemingly unfair that the drunk-driving law constrains one person from doing what they are biologically driven to do in social situations away from home, and yet has no impact whatsoever on another person who never drinks anyway.
Does such inequality create a violation of equal protection under the laws? Because the law focuses on behavior, no such case can be made, and I doubt LUCYCAT would even make such a case. The law treats everyone equally despite having an unequal effect from person to person.
It seems to me that a law prohibiting the affirmation or promotion of homosexuality by any public employee (i.e., teacher) in the course of his/her employment is an analogous case to the drunk-driving prohibition. Such a law can be made constitutionally simply because the majority of state citizens believes the affirmation or promotion of homosexuality is harmful to children. It is a law that constrains behavior only (the speech of public employees), reflecting the judgment and lawmaking rights of the majority of state citizens. Such a law would be oblivious to the particular sexual proclivities of any public employee or student, although it would have an unequal effect on homosexuals and heterosexuals. Yet, in fact every person is treated equally under this law in the same way that everyone is equal under a drunk-driving law.
I believe laws can be written to enforce a state’s legitimate majority interest in protecting overall public health–whether physically, psychologically, or morally—by promoting heterosexual sex and marriage over homosexual sex and marriage, within legal definitions of equality under the laws.
By the same token, if a state majority feels there is no harm in homosexuality, or its promotion in schools, they have just as much right under the constitution to make laws accordingly. The real issue is the hearts and minds of the public.
LUCYCAT’s mind will never be changed. What is important is that citizens with biblical values need to not be cowed by such smokescreens as the “equal protection under the law” argument.
Our form of government was instituted to ensure the right of self-rule, that is the right of people to make their own laws under a representative form of government.
In anticipating the outcry in response to this post, I would ask everyone, especially my fellow “social conservatives,” to read and consider the first six words of the First Amendment to our Constitution: “Congress shall make no law respecting…”
The words and original intent of this amendment do not guarantee individual rights, but rather ensure the national government (i.e., Congress) stays out of the affairs of states and local communities in matters in which the national government has no valid interest or powers. The First Amendment is simply another way of saying what the 10th Amendment also says, in securing our system of Federalism, or dual and coexisting National and State sovereignties: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Before the moral mindset of our country is destroyed by the current corrupted perceptions of what our Constitution actually guarantees, we need to take back the original intent, and the literal words, of the Constitution and the First Amendment in particular.
Local self-rule is fundamental to both the literal words and original intent of our Constitution, not to mention our founding document the Declaration of Independence. Interestingly, the Anti-Federalists who argued against the Constitution accurately predicted that the strong national government created by this Constitution would eventually overpower the local lawmaking rights that the concept of Federalism embodied in the Constitution was supposed to protect. The Founders, who were the winning Federalists, believed the states and the people would forever jealously guard these rights against encroachment by the National government. To ensure this they promised the Anti-Federalists they would pass a Bill of Rights to supplement the Constitution within a certain number of years (which they did, in the form of the first ten amendments) . The Bill of Rights has failed to do what was promised, and, as the Anti-Federalists predicted, has been turned on its head by the federal judicial system to actually take away local lawmaking authority. We citizens need to live up to the expectations of the Founders in taking back the local prerogatives of self-regulation in matters of speech, religion, assembly, etc. It is our law, and presumably we are ruled by law.
In literal constitutional words and history, LUCYCAT really has no legs to stand on. Her realistic hope, though, is in the probable continued corruption and related brainwashing of the American public concerning their own law and history.
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Here is some stores in the Religion News in Brief
Rules for Nebraska counselors still mired in gay debate
Before-school Bible study group sues Owasso Public Schools for alleged civil rights violations
Attorney: SC school district counseled on church-state separation; Christian rapper returns
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@278 – Thank you, Phillo, for longest false analogy that I have ever read in my entire life.
Comparing drunk driving – which kills people despite laws punishing it severely – to gay people being fully integrated into society via public education is preposterous.
Suggesting further that individual rights should be subject to state legislation betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the consititution and basic civil rights work. Let’s see how…
It seems to me that a law prohibiting the affirmation or promotion of segregation by any public employee (i.e., teacher) in the course of his/her employment is an analogous case to the drunk-driving prohibition. Such a law can be made constitutionally simply because the majority of state citizens believes the affirmation or promotion of integration is harmful to children. It is a law that constrains behavior only (the speech of public employees), reflecting the judgment and lawmaking rights of the majority of state citizens. Such a law would be oblivious to the particular pigmentation of any public employee or student, although it would have an unequal effect on white people and everyone who isn’t white. Yet, in fact every person is treated equally under this law in the same way that everyone is equal under a drunk-driving law.
Separate but equal isn’t. It never was. And not everyone is a Constitutional literalist any more than everyone is a Biblical one. Sooooo…. I don’t need your legs to stand, I’m doing just fine on my own.
From UK PM David Cameron: “I once stood before a Conservative conference and said it shouldn’t matter whether commitment was between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, or a man and another man. You applauded me for that,” the prime minister said.
“To anyone who has reservations, I say: Yes, it’s about equality, but it’s also about something else: commitment. Conservatives believe in the ties that bind us; that society is stronger when we make vows to each other and support each other.
“So I don’t support gay marriage despite being a Conservative. I support gay marriage because I’m a Conservative.”
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@ 279 – Pastor, your friends are in trouble with God too.
I will pray for their souls as well.
On the growing list of school teachers making controversial statements on Facebook and then getting in trouble for them, you can add Missouri math teacher Jim Whitney. The Joplin High School teacher is in trouble after making a comment on the Facebook page of a former student last week who posted a link to a news article about a gay 15-year old from Canada who committed suicide after being bullied.
“Moral of the story: Don’t be gay” was Whitney’s comment to the student’s post, the Joplin Globe reports. When questioned by another user on the same thread about how many more cases of suicide will it take for people to pay attention, Whitney allegedly retorted, “11-13 ought to do it.” Although Whitney released an emailed apology on Monday, he could not be reached for further comment and the Joplin School Board is currently undertaking an investigation regarding the incident. And with the group Missourians for Marriage Equality encouraging its more than 2,000 Facebook followers to take action by contacting the Joplin School Board, Whitney’s job is certainly on the line.
Clint McCance, a member of an Arkansas school board, posted on his Facebook last year that “queers” and “fags” should kill themselves and said the only way he would wear purple would be “if they all commit suicide.”
These poor educators are being oppressed and denied their religious freedom and freedom of speech, right, Pastor? They should sue! Good thing you can hide behind a pulpit when you say these things.
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It is amazing you find 2 nut cases claiming to be christians…. The here is not them, they are as much wrong in their comments as you are…… I will post this again READ IT
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Maybe you need to take a step back an consider this. You are the only one here promote and defend homosexuality an claiming to be a christian. By saying that God is ok with it and society is ok with it, and that people who are gay can not change.
All the Christian’s here (we all come from different churches) are in agreement on this issue. The only one who has a disagreement here is you. You are the only one who seem not to understand God’s View on this issue. Every one of us (again all from different churches) understand God’s View on this issue. Why is that? Why are you the only one who is having problem here with the Christians?
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We are dealing with people who are trapped in a sexual sin that is separating them from God. The only hope for these people in order not to face God’s judgment that is coming . Is not found in the Mental Health Groups (which can help deal with life) or bullying programs (no one should be bully), it is found in God’s Word that point the people to Jesus Christ.
But you and other seem to not want to point this out to the GLBT Community. They can not per God’s Word entry heavens gates living in sexual sins. They must repent of their sins (which includes their sexual sins) and come to the saving knowledge of Christ. They can not do this as long as people are teaching them the false teaching that God is ok with the way they are living and God is ok with same sex marriage.
I am sorry but that view goes against the Word of God. You can quote all the polls you want and all the Mental Health writers you want, you can provided all the bullying programs you want and try to change all society views and laws you want.
It will not provide freedom from their sexual sins, thise ideas will not draw them closers to God. Only at the cross of Jesus Christ can they find freedom from their sexual sins and open the door for them to draw closer to God.
Sexual Sins are not easy to over come, but with Christ help they can and will be set free.
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lucycat – You do not like having your views challenged do you?
The fact of the matter is you are not able to spread your false teaching here, without someone stepping up an tell you no that is not right and that goes against God’s Word. An it upset you bery much.
You issue is not with me, kBells, thron.. We are just the people standing up and speaking out against your false ideas. You issue is with God and His Word, and the fact you are rejecting the truth of His word on these issues, to embrace society views on these issues.
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Explain to us lucycat why you are the only one have problem with people?
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sorry rewrite.
It is amazing you find 2 nut cases claiming to be christians…. They are not Christians, their actions are not of Christ, they are as much wrong in their comments as you are……
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Wow, Pastor, once set off, you’re unstoppable!
This thread may be an echo chamber / cesspool of evangelical-tinged hate, but as a Christian I’m called upon to be salt and light. So it really isn’t a numbers game, Pastor. The majority can and has been wrong about many things in America, and it will be ever thus.
I know what to do when people call good “evil” and evil “good”.
Still praying for your eternal soul, and those of people like the bigoted public educators you defend.
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I know what to do when people call good “evil” and evil “good”.
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So why are you doing it? Why are you calling sexual sin good, and the Word of God evil?
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This thread may be an echo chamber / cesspool of evangelical-tinged hate, but as a Christian I’m called upon to be salt and light.
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Where is the hate you are talking about? As for light the devil can appear as an angel of light to trap people into sin.
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Still praying for your eternal soul, and those of people like the bigoted public educators you defend.
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You did not read my comment..
It is amazing you find 2 nut cases claiming to be christians…. They are not Christians, their actions are not of Christ….
Can you understand that statement?
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they are as much wrong in their comments as you are……
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Can you understand that statement?
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You have not responded to my comments at 283, 284, 285,
where is the hate in those comments?
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This thread may be an echo chamber / cesspool of evangelical-tinged hate
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Where are these comments that are cesspool of evangelical-tinged hate?
Is it hate to stand aginst sexual sins?
Is it hate to stand up for God’s Standards?
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Wow, Pastor, once set off, you’re unstoppable!
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With God’s Word back me up, yes I am unstoppable. What makes me unstoppable is my relationship with Jesus Christ. What makes me unstoppable is my relationship Holy Spirit. What makes me unstoppable is my relationship to God’s Word.
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lucycat
you have attacked everyone who has dare to question or challenge your views. We have shown you thru God’s Word what what the Word of God has to say about homosexuality, we have provide one passage after another showing where marriage is between one man and one woman.
You have NOT provide any passages showing where it stated that God is ok with homosexuality. You have NOT shown any passages where same sex marriage is a standard of marriage approved by God. Why is that? You claim to be a teacher of God’s Word. I am sure you have one passage from the Word that shows God is ok with homosexuality with same sex marriage.
I am talk about the Word of God not some type of interpretation from a far left theolgian.
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Here are two passages to suppor marriage betwen a man and a woman, one from the old testament and one from the new testament
Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her.
Now it is your turn lucycat where are the passages shows that same sex marriage is a standard approved by God.
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How’s your brother doing, Pastor?
I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Clint McCance, a member of an Arkansas school board, posted on his Facebook last year that “queers” and “fags” should kill themselves and said the only way he would wear purple would be “if they all commit suicide.”
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#298 What’s the point of that bolded afterthought? That someone somewhere who may or may not claim to be a Christian spews like a creep? So what. Unless you’re saying he speaks for YOU, it’s a complete nonsequitur. And none of the passages you posted even hints that God has changed his mind about homosexuality, or that embracing that sin or any other is a Christian act. That’s because He hasn’t, and it isn’t. Period.
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Good posts Phillogic2, Thorn, Kbells, RWHawk, and many others. Your arguments have made the point, though I doubt that can be perceived by the immature, who will probably continue to spit and thrash about and generally attempt to muddy the waters with various irrelevancies and false arguments.
Pastor Roy, thanks for upholding the standard of the Word on this topic, which I know is near and dear to your heart.
Be well all.
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lucycat – They are great passage but no of them stated that God is ok with homosexuality or same sex marriage.
Clint McCance, a member of an Arkansas school board, posted on his Facebook last year that “queers” and “fags” should kill themselves and said the only way he would wear purple would be “if they all commit suicide.” — Please see my comment at 291
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But none of them address the sexual sin of the GLBT Community, why is that? Do you dare to try again with other passages….
Now these passages could be apply to the false ideas you are present
Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
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With these passages
I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
I would say myself, Phillogic2, Thorn, Kbells, RWHawk, and many others do love our brothers and sisters. Why else would we have spent so much time trying to reach you for Christ.
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That is my favor Chapter the reason Jesus goes on to tell us how we are to determine if someone is a believe or not.
Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
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I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God
If we love someone why would we permitted them to live in sin? Would we not try to help them as we are trying to help you
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@ 300 – Debra, unfortunately, your waters started from muddy, and you’re not really in a position to comment on the maturity of others. Mature people know how to think, reason and analyze. They don’t fly in like a seagull, poop on the windshield of the thread and fly away.
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@ Pastor – it seems that your selectively literal exegesis, if it can be called that, has left us at an impasse.
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@ Pastor – it seems that your selectively literal exegesis, if it can be called that, has left us at an impasse
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There is no impasse when it comes to God’s Word it has the finial say on the matter.
You still have failed to provide those passages that show God is ok with sexual sin, same sex marriage, homosexuality…..
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@ 308 – No, Pastor, I have provided those passages. You just don’t understand them or think they apply to you.
This saddens me. I will continue to pray for the souls of those who defend disgraceful, immoral, unChristlike behavior. In the meantime, here’s one conservative evangelical’s take on the problem of “Christian” students bullying gay classmates in school.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/05/my-take-a-christian-response-to-anti-gay-bullying
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What you try to do is make an end around without dealing with the issue of sexual sin. By talking about loving your brothers, the problem you are having someone who is trapped in a sexual sin and refuses to repent of it, their relationship with Christ is questionable. The church who supports such teaching relationship with Christ is questionable.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Sex’s out side of marriage is in the list…..
and those involved will not inherit the kingdom of God. How much more clearer can it be
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@ 308 – No, Pastor, I have provided those passages. You just don’t understand them or think they apply to you
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None of those passage deal with the issue of same sex marriage or homosexuality and GOd’s View
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here’s one conservative evangelical’s take on the problem of “Christian” students bullying gay classmates in school.
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again there is no proof the Christian’s are behind the bullying.
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That comes from CNN they have a history of anti-christian view points.
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@ 312-313, Pastor, look at the author of the piece, then actually READ it. There is nothing in there that is anti-Christian whatsoever. I know that evangelicals are not close readers in general, but CNN was merely reporting what a conservative evangelical thinks about anti-bullying programs in school… and “Christians” who do it to gay / perceived-as-gay students.
This highlights the larger problem of your exegesis.
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Ephesians 5:1-21
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
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8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spiritis in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says:
“ Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light.”
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15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God
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I read it and it was wrong.. But as I can tell anything that demonzies the CHristian Faith or puts the Christian in a bad light, you post to try and prove you point… But you still lack one thing that is very important. GOD’S WORD ON THE ISSUE>
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Paul is warning the Ephesians Church of the same behavior you are portraying. The embracing and supporting of sin.
“3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. ”
Fornication is called sexual sin. Any sexual relationship out side of marriage (which again is between one man and one woman) is called a sexual sin. Versus 6 is the danger you are in…..Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
You are trying to deceive people into believe God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality. When He is not ok with it.
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Your issue is you need to listen to Paul’s Warning here “11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. ”
Here is you issue, you are promoting unfruitful works of darkness, by saying God is ok with same sex marriage or homosexuality, When God has called it a sexual sin.
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15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
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You problem because you are promoting Fornication, unfruitful works of darkness with this idea again the God is ok with marriage and homosexuality, (Which again you have failed to provide any passages supporting your views, unlike myself and other have provided for you), you are being unwise and leading people into darkness.
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Please lucycat, stop… After all myself and other have spoken to you about.. Step back, reconsider, find a Church that teaches and preaches the Word of God. Because your present Church has failed you. They are leading you down a path of destruction. You are blinded to the truth of God’s Word….
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Pastor Roy, thanks for upholding the standard of the Word on this topic, which I know is near and dear to your heart.
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Without the truth of God’s Word, which shows Christ’s Love, Mercy and Grace Debra, we would be in the same boat as lucycat believing a lie.
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@ 311 – yes, Pastor, they do.
Pray for discernment on this issue. I will continue to pray for your eternal soul, for The Great Commandment trumps all others.
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@ 311 – yes, Pastor, they do
I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
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Where is same marriage and homosexuality mention?
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The Great Commandment trumps all others
Here your problem The Great Commandment does not trumps those who are trapped in sin. Those who refuse to repent of their sins (sexual sin) still will face God’s Judgement.
You have failed to provide any passages showing God is ok with same marriage and homosexuality.
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@ 326 – Pastor, no.
Here is YOUR problem. You seem to think that your own sins – whatever they may be, but surely that of failing to love your neighbor – is somehow less worthy of damnation than gay people.
News flash: your sins are great and many, as are mine. But persecuting others is one that is not on my list. It is very much on yours.
Mote – log, etc.
Singling gay people out as some “special” class of sinners worthy of legislating against, while people -God’s children- in America and all over the world are homeless, starving and dying of preventable diseases, strikes me as a seriously misplaced set of priorities for ANY Christian, regardless of creed.
“I was hungry and you gave me no bread…”
What happens to those people, Pastor? Where do they go? Where will YOU go? Do you really believe that your own sins are somehow less worthy of punishment?
I don’t.
I will continue to pray for your soul, and for peace and discernment on how to better love your neighbor.
Hint: lobbying for the freedom to bully gay students to the point of suicide in the name of Christ isn’t going to get you where you want to be.
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Matthew 22:36-40
New King James Version (NKJV)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
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If someone loves God with all their heart, soul and mind… Then they would want to repent of their sins and follow God’s Word.. Since Marriage is between one man and one woman then same marriage would be a sin, supporting and promoting same sex marriage would be a sin. Since any sexual relationship out side of marriage would be a sexual sin, then homosexuality would be a sin, supporting and promoting homosexuality would be a sin. Why is that hard for you to understand?
If you love your neighbor as yourself. You would not want to see them end up in hell. You would try to reach them for Christ at all cost. You would point out that sexual relationship out side of marriage is a sin. That they need to come to Christ and find forgiveness and the strength to resisted the temptation of sexual sin. Why is that hard for you to understand?
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Hint: lobbying for the freedom to bully gay students to the point of suicide in the name of Christ isn’t going to get you where you want to be.
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No one here is doing that… That is what you desire, in order to give you a reason , not to surrender to God’s Word.
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You are switching gear to avoid the Truth of God’s Word. You have no passage supporting your views. You are trying to reach into the Great Commandment something that is notthere. An that is God approving same sex marriage and homosexuality.
The Great Commandment reaffirms the needs of man to repent and turn back to God with his whole heart, soul and mind. It reaffirms the need for the Christian to be a witness for Christ. You can try an promote society views all day long. That will not lead people who are trapped in homosexuality to a right relationship with Christ. That will not help people who are trapped in homosexuality to find forgiveness and deliverance from sexual sins.
The Great Commandment shows that forgiveness and deliverance from sexual sin can only comes thru Jesus Christ and the Cross.
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Singling gay people out as some “special” class of sinners worthy of legislating against,
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The Nation has desire marriage to be between one man and one woman. Proven by the fact that 33 States desire that standard… They are not legislating against anyone. Now you switch gear here to avoid the Truth of God’s Word… That Same Sex Marriage and homosexuality goes against the Word of God…. Now unless you have passage showing that God approves of Same Sex Marriage and homosexuality.. Which you have admitted you do not…. Then stop spreading false teaching.
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This whole debate comes down to a simple question for the Christian….. Do we follow God’s Standard for marriage and sexual relationship or do we follow Society Standard for marriage and sexual relationship. One Standard leads to Godly Life the other standards leads to an ungodly life.
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13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it”
Matthew 7 here is clear there is a path that leads to destruction…..When someone is promoting scoiety views above God’s Word, which path are they on? When they reject God’s Standard for marriage and sexual relatiosnhip which path are they on?
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@ 328 – If you love your neighbor as yourself. You would not want to see them end up in hell. You would try to reach them for Christ at all cost.
This is exact reason I am praying for your soul, Pastor.
Any thoughts on legislation about banning divorce? How about fornication? How about the idea that remarriage after divorce is adultery and should be punished by death?
The Barna Research Group’s national study showed that members of nondenominational churches divorce 34 percent of the time in contrast to 25 percent for the general population. Nondenominational churches would include large numbers of Bible churches and other conservative evangelicals. Baptists had the highest rate of the major denominations: 29 percent. Born-again Christians’ rate was 27 percent. To make matters even more distressing for believers, atheists/agnostics had the lowest rate of divorce 21 percent.
Should we bring back stoning people to death for this sin?
Your soul is in mortal danger, Pastor. You are most definitely on my prayer list.
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15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
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Matthew 7 warns us of false prophets…. When put together with the wide path of destruction… I believe those who claim that God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality, are producing bad fruits. The reason in order to promote these ideas, they must do away with God’s Word and look to societys views to fill the gap left by God’s Word,.
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@ 335 – Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
How many divorced and remarried people do you know, Pastor? Do you spend this much time and energy lecturing them on sexual sin?
Or does that hit too close to home for you to do?
God’s Word is very, very clear on this subject.
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When unable to proven your point switch gears to something else. So to avoid dealing with the fact your views are not supported by God’s Word.
lucycat – you can try and put out all the little rabbits you want to avoid dealing with the truth of God’s Word. The truth is you have no passages to support your view that God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality…
So to avoid address your lack of passages you are try to throw out different issues. sorry but it may work on other peopel but not me.
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lucycat the different between you and me… You put society views and standards above God’s Word. I put God’s Word above society views and standards.
society views and standards can not and will not save anyone or deliverance anyone from sexual sins.
God’s Word points to Christ who will save and deliverance people from sexual sins.
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@ 337 – Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Not a different issue, Pastor. Not even a little bit, as you well know.
Divorce and adultery are not a little rabbit, and I’m not avoiding dealing with the truth of God’s Word. It is the absolute truth. It’s just that hypocrites who elevate the sins of others above their own will never enter God’s Kingdom.
Still praying for you, Pastor.
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No fault divorce is the result of society promote free sexs. For a Chirstian the reason for a divorce and remarried is found at the end… “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery”
If the person is unfaithfulness, they can remarried… The problem you are having is this. When someone comes to Christ.. the Word of God tells us they are a new creature. Which means the old mastakes are no longer seen in the eyes of God….
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lucycat you have made it clear your god and your christ are ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality… The problem your god and your christ are not found in God’s Word.. The Word of God does not support your view on this issue.
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Back to the topic:
This week, a 15-year-old teenager was severely beaten in his high school class room for being gay. The attack occurred at Union-Scioto High School in Chillicothe, Ohio, and was caught on camera as fellow class members watched one teen wait for the victim to enter the room, push him to the ground and continually punch him in the face. Two days prior to the attack, the perpetrator harassed the victim via Facebook regarding his sexual orientation. The victim has suffered a possible concussion and dental damage. The attacker was suspended from school for just three days.
Union-Scioto has no policy in place that specifically protects students from being bullied or attacked based on sexual orientation or gender identity. The Union-Scioto Local School District does have a policy that prohibits harassment based on sex, race, color, national origin, religion, disability, among others, but it does not specifically protect against harassment based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
Your words lead to this, Pastor. False teachings often do. Watch and learn how “Christians” who believe as you do act in public schools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPyyqISm8eg&feature=player_embedded
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But same sex marriage and homosexuality are never view as being ok in the eyes of Christ. So when someone who is trapped in the sexual sin of same sex marriage and homosexuality come to Christ… They must leave such relationship in order to be faithful before God. Their marriage / relationship can not be blessed or changed in the eyes of God, unlike the person who is divorce and remarried.. They can find forgiveness and their marriage can be made right in the eyes of God… It is called forgiveness and grace.
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@ 340 – Nope. The exception for infidelity is there, but how many people divorce and remarry for other reasons and still run around trumpeting “God’s Word” as though they had a monopoly on it?
Know any one like that, Pastor? I bet you do.
If the Word Of God doesn’t support gay students learning in peace, it surely doesn’t support the nonsense going on in your own pews every Sunday and every other day of the week.
Priorities, Pastor, are a funny thing. They often say more about the people who share them than they do about an actual issue.
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Your words lead to this, Pastor. False teachings often do. Watch and learn how “Christians” who believe as you do act in public schools.
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The Christian Faith has nothing to do with it. good try…The action of these people need to be handle thru the legal system… Which words? One that say God’s Word is clear marriage is between one man and one woman or it the you have passages supporting your view that God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality ….
Pleae which word and what teaching
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I am leaving this thread and will likely not return, as the topic is exhausted.
But I remain prayerful for you, Pastor, and all who think and act as you do.
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If the Word Of God doesn’t support gay students learning in peace, it surely doesn’t support the nonsense going on in your own pews every Sunday and every other day of the week.
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Switch gear again…. We are not talking about gay students learning in peace… We are adress your desire to say God is ok with sex marriage and homosexuality with out any support from God’s Word.….
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The exception for infidelity is there, but how many people divorce and remarry for other reasons and still run around trumpeting “God’s Word” as though they had a monopoly on it?
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When someone comes to Christ.. the Word of God tells us they are a new creature. Which means the old mistakes are no longer seen in the eyes of God….
So the person who is divorce and remarried.. They can find forgiveness and their marriage can be made right in the eyes of God… It is called forgiveness and grace.
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sex marriage and homosexuality relationship can not. The reason God’s Standard for marriage and sexual relationship…. Which agin you seem to reject.
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Oh still waiting for those passages from God’s Word.
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sorry should read
SAME sex marriage and homosexuality relationship can not. The reason God’s Standard for marriage and sexual relationship…. Which agin you seem to reject.
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” Debra, unfortunately, your waters started from muddy, and you’re not really in a position to comment on the maturity of others.”
My Lucy, you do resort to personal attacks instead of sound reason .
“But persecuting others is one that is not on my list. It is very much on yours.”
Really Lucy? Never once?
Oh I doubt that.
“Singling gay people out as some “special” class of sinners worthy of legislating against”
What legislation singles them out?
“while people -God’s children- in America and all over the world are homeless, starving and dying of preventable diseases, strikes me as a seriously misplaced set of priorities for ANY Christian, regardless of creed.”
Just because one may not swim, does not mean that the ocean is non existant or that others do not use it.
In other words, attacking Pastor Roy on how much time he spends on topics not regarding this thread is not relative.
“How many divorced and remarried people do you know, Pastor? Do you spend this much time and energy lecturing them on sexual sin?”
One sin does not justify another. Pastor Roy hasn’t given priority, the topic on this thread regards homosexuality. Be careful about what you insinuate regarding others you know little about.
“Divorce and adultery are not a little rabbit, and I’m not avoiding dealing with the truth of God’s Word.”
They aren’t little rabbits, but your knowledge of the church is lacking if you think that churches do not spend day after day with those who have been scarred by divorce and adultery.
Your attempt to deflect the conversation here is poor argument.
“The exception for infidelity is there, but how many people divorce and remarry for other reasons and still run around trumpeting “God’s Word” as though they had a monopoly on it?”
I don’t know, how many? Can not any sinner be forgiven, even of adultery and divorce? Why is a sinner able to speak the word of God? Because Christ is his Savior.
“They often say more about the people who share them than they do about an actual issue.”
Well Lucy, you should be honest and look in the mirror. All you have done is called Debra, immature, Pastor Roy, a hypocrite, and you insinuated I was being nasty.
You should learn to have a proper discussion, without resorting to personal attacks. You do not do your side a favor by resorting to such tactics.
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Thorn – The sad part I was just getting warm up with the debate here… I was just starting to hit my pace.
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I love God’s Word and I love posting it and talking about it.
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Wow! This seems like the thread that just won’t die.
Then again…evangelicals run to gay-bashing like fat kids run to cake.
Nothing seems to get evangelicalism’s ignorant hordes excited like a good opportunity to engage in slander against homosexuals.
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After perusing some earlier posts, I’d like to recommend those of Pentamom1 at 96, 99, 100, 128, and 137. Really great points on a clear approach to asserting zero tolerance for bullying behavior, and the irrelevance of both rationalizations by the perpetrators and sympathy (or not) for the victims.
Kids bullying kids is simply reprehensible, for any reason. The homosexual “community” should know that the Christian “community” will not tolerate bullying, period, and will be an ally in opposing it.
I’m talking about real bullying, as in taunting, slandering, exclusion, and physical abuse. We’ll just have to ignore the inevitable nonsense claiming that holding to beliefs that homosexuality is perverse and sinful is in itself bullying.
Hate the sin, love and do justice for the sinner.
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Then again…evangelicals run to gay-bashing like fat kids run to cake.
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Sorry but where is the gay-bashing happen at?
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Thorn, you really didn’t think that your intellectual dishonesty was going to go unchallenged, did you?
Well Lucy, you should be honest and look in the mirror. All you have done is called Debra, immature, Pastor Roy, a hypocrite, and you insinuated I was being nasty.
Debra’s comment was immature. Whether or not she is, I don’t know. Pastor Roy’s position on this issue, as articulated here, is the very definition of what is hypocritcal. Whether he is a hypocrite, I don’t know.
Your comments are nasty. You may be perfectly nice, but your comments don’t reflect this.
I’ll pray for your soul too.
Dancing around the hatred expressed by evangelicals towards gays, throwing buckets of time, effort and money at anti-gay causes while children starve and their own ranks are filled witrh divorce and other sexual sins… that may work for you. It is practially a national joke and it explains why non-evangelicals view your sort of “reasoning” (if it can be called that) as small-minded, ignorant, and expressive of the very worst elements of human nature.
God sees all.
And while I may love you, I hate your sin. Perversion of the Word Of God…
I’ll pray for you, Thorn.
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I drove up I-95 today and from Florida to Virginia, the roadside billboards alternated between “Jesus Saves” and a picture of a baby that said “18 days after conception my heart started beating!” and “Sex Toys! Gentlemen’s Club!”, “Hot Love Shoppe!” and “Girls! Girls! Girls!”.
The evangelical American South seems to be a study in moral contradictions, hypocrisy, hate of “the other” and Elmer Gantry theology.
This thread has lead to several additions to my prayer list, so perhaps that was its purpose all along.
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The Word of God calls SAME sex marriage and homosexuality relationship and Sex Toys! Gentlemen’s Club!”, “Hot Love Shoppe!” and “Girls! Girls! Girls!”.
A sexual sin…..
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As for the divorce issues the person who is divorce and remarried can come to God and find forgiveness. In which their marriage can be made new in the eyes of God.
Same sex marriage can not find forgiveness and their marrige can not be made new in the eyes of God.
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@ 360 – Then spend more time on it, Pastor. There a LOT more heterosexuals who need saving.
Post-salvation divorce and remarriage, Pastor… what does God’s Word say about that?
Matt 22:18: But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
Know anyone divorced and remarried, Pastor?
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@ 361- Really? Why not?
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“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” – Voltaire
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lucycat – marriage in God’s Eye per his Word is between one man and one woman. If you were a Christian, you would understand that.
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When someone asked forgiveness and become to Christ. They old live is under the blood of Christ. An in God’s eye it has not happen. If you were a Christian you would understand this.
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365 – Magical!
366 – Inconsistent!
I’m not playing your game of “who’s a better Christian”, Pastor. The wages of that sin is death.
Galatians 2:21: “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
Galatians 5:4: “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
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“One of the most effective deceptions that Satan has foisted upon Christians is the idea that certain groups are more spiritually mature than less-enlightened believers. The endless game of, “I am more approved in the Lord’s eyes than you,” divides the Body of Christ and gives non-believers a negative opinion of the Christian faith. Few people would ever openly say, “I’m a better Christian than you.” It is through their beliefs and deeds that they proclaim their superiority.”
I’m praying for you, Pastor.
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@ 360 – Then spend more time on it, Pastor. There a LOT more heterosexuals who need saving.
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Lets see the GLBT Community and their supports like you are the ones tell every one that God is ok with their sexual sins. So as long as you and other are out there spreading these false ideas / teaching.. I will be out there standing up for God’s Word and calling your false ideas / teachig out and point people back to the truth of God’s Word
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369 – God hates divorce, Pastor. Yet you keep defending it. It is a sexual sin. Adultery. Why? Is the hypocrisy under your own roof, Pastor? The speck and the beam, the mote and the log?
Praying for you, Pastor.
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Any person who gets a divorce for a reason other than infidelity, and then gets remarried has committed adultery (Luke 16:18). The question then becomes, is this remarriage an “act” of adultery, or a “state” of adultery? The present tense of the Greek in Matthew 5:32; 19:9; and Luke 16:18 can indicate a continuous state of adultery. At the same time, the present tense in Greek does not always indicate continuous action. Sometimes it simply means that something occurred (Aoristic, Punctiliar, or Gnomic present). For example, the word “divorces” in Matthew 5:32 is present tense, but divorcing is not a continual action. It is our view that remarriage, no matter the circumstances, is not a continual state of adultery. Only the act of getting remarried itself is adultery.
In the Old Testament Law, the punishment for adultery was death (Leviticus 20:10).
Praying for you, Pastor!
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Again I will try to help you understand,
People who are divorce can find forgiveness… Their marriage can be made new in the eyes of God……The reason marriage is between one man and one woman….
SAME SEX MARRIAGE can not find forgiveness and be made new in the eyes of God, because their marriage are not between one man and one woman….
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You do not understand what Christ did at cross… WOW, Oh, well I am going to wipe the dusty of my feet and stop trying to help you understan God’s Word.. YOu are deeply entrapped in false teaching, that you can not understand God’s Mercy and Grace….
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373 – God’s Mercy and Grace are as alien to the self-righteous Christian who cannot see his own sin as they would be to any other debased person.
Praying for your soul, Pastor. I think I guessed correctly in 370.
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Let see you are the one promoting sexual sin in the name of same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship. Without any backing from God’s Word, an you want to call me a self-righteous Christian?
I tell you what provide one passage showing God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship..
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Galatians 2:17-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
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You need to pay attention ot versus 17 – 18
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
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by promoting sexual sin an calling it same sex marriage or homosexuality relationship, you are build up something that God has called a sin…
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@LUCYCAT
In response to your question in 361, the reason why not, is because forgiveness does not change sin into righteousness. In the example of gay marriage, one can find forgiveness–through repentance (as with all other sins). In this instance it would be through the dissolution of the marriage, and turning towards God’s standard regarding sexuality. Remaining in the sinful relationship is not true repentance.
That being said, your questions have caused me to seek introspection on my position regarding divorce. While I have always held it to be sin, I shared Pastor Roy’s position. I now feel that it is the wrong position. Malachi 2, and Proverbs 5 should give insights into this, we are to “rejoice in the wife of our youth,” and remain faithful to her. Or put another way, DO NOT delight in another woman than your wife. I feel in my spirit that if we are to call one group to turn away from their sin, we must call all groups to turn away from their sins. In the instance of divorcees or those seeking divorce, I feel that we should be pointing them towards reconciliation with their original spouse. Of course, this is in stark contrast with popular culture, which only seeks their(our) own pleasure, and justification of our own position.
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Enough of debate this false idea of your for today
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Tigerspike – I understand and repect your view… But some time that reconciliation with their original spouse can not happen. I believe this is where God’s Grace and Forgiveneess and Mercy comes into play with God renew the new marriage and making it new in His eyes.
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Oh, Pastor, I weep for your future.
You need to pay attention ot versus 17 – 18
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor….
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By promoting sexual sin and calling it divorce and remarriage, you are build(ing)up something that God has called a sin…
God’s Grace and Forgiveness and Mercy can come to all, Pastor. Even to you and to every gay person, whose sins may very well be less important to God than your own or mine.
Praying for you, Pastor.
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Tigerspike, thank you. I understand your point. My point, though was towards the sheer force of the hate-driven, unChristian impulse to categorize the sexual sins of others as somehow less than our own. They are not. And one does not see the attention of evangelicals drawn to divorce and remarriage with the vitriol reserved for gay people, who are not seeking religious marriage, but the civil form.
It is utterly hypocritical, and abhorrent.
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Pastor Roy,
With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you on this topic. I believe that the only time reconciliation is impossible is in death, because in Philippians 4 we are told that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and in Matthew 19, Christ himself says that all things are possible with God! This of course includes forgiveness and grace, but reconciliation as well. And what would give God more glory, staying with a relationship started in sin, or returning to the wife of your vows?
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LucyCat,
I agree, sin is sin, and as scripture points out, we are all sinners in need of Christ’s forgiveness. It would be great to see the church treat people as Christ treated them. He called sin what it was, but died for us anyway.
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lucycat – again the divorce and remarriage can become new in the eyes of God when they ask for forgiveness.. their marriage becomes new when it is renew with God’s Love, mercy and grace. The reason God’s Standard for marriage is between one man and one woman.. Which you are rejecting.
People who are trapped in the same sex marriage, when they come to Christ must end that relationship. The reason same sex marriage can not be renew in the eyes of God. Which you are rejecting.
Those who are trapped in homosexuality relationship they come to Christ must end that relationship. The reason homosexuality relationship can not be renew in the eyes of God.
Which you are rejecting.
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Those who are divorced must not remarry, lest they commit adultery.
Which you are rejecting.
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@ 384, Amen, TigerSpike!
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lucycat – no true.. The reason when they come to Christ all things become new. Which would enclude the fail marriage.
You hold stand that all thing do not become new, when someone comes to Christ.. That Christ mercy, grace and love can not over come a fail marriage. That God would forevery hold that failed marriage aginst them.
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You are tell a poor 18 year kid who got married at a young age and whose marriaged failed apart after 1 year.. That becomes a Christian later in life, That Christ death on the cross was not enough to overcome the fail marriage.
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There are not passage saying the God will not forgive a divorce and remarriage….
THE WORD OD GOD IS CLEAR ALL THINGS BECOME NEW WHEN YOU COME TO CHRIST>
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A God who can forgive all can surely forgive you, Pastor, who is no more or less sinful than any committed gay person or couple.
Divorce and remarriage, in general, is sinful. It is a far greater social evil than a couple of gays seeking LEGAL (not theological) recognition of a committed relationship. Divorce and remarriage hurts children and those who engage in it on a far greater scale than gay couples ever could.
Priorities, Pastor.
Priorities.
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@ 389 – God’s Mercy and Forgiveness do not only apply to you and yours, Pastor. They apply to all.
Many divorce and remarry multiple times after “coming to Christ”, and still think that CIVIL discrimination against gay couples is just fine.
As YOU believe, Pastor…
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Kim Kardashian’s mini-marriage became an instant rallying cry among same-sex marriage advocates who pointed out that she was allowed to make a joke of the institution while many gay couples who want lifelong marriages still aren’t allowed to wed.
“Kim Kardashian files for divorce after 72 days. Another example of how same-sex marriage is destroying the sanctity of the very institution,” joked Geoge Takei on Twitter, expressing the sentiment of many.
Also read: Kardashian, Humphries Earned $250K for Each Day of Marriage
Tweeted gossip blogger Perez Hilton: “Straight people do a damn well good job themselves of ruining the sanctity of marriage! #MarriageForAll.”
Kardashian joins Britney Spears and other celebrities whose quickie marriages have made gay marriage advocates shake their heads.
Kardashian filed for divorce Monday after 72 days of marriage. Her wedding in August earned her and husband Kris Humphries an estimated $18 million in profits.
All will be well for Kim and Chris to remarry if they come to Christ, right, Pastor?
Spare me.
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lucycat – still waiting for those passage showning God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship?
Oh, wait that is right you do not have any..
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Pastor, re-read…
I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
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2 Corinthians 5:12-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
Be Reconciled to God
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
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The key parts to look at is
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
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When someone who is divorce and married come to the saving knowledge of Christ and they surrender their life and their marriage to Christ. The Word of GOd is clear….. “all things have become new.” That encludes divorce and remarraige.
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391 – Pastor. How has this impacted your life? Your fellow “Christians”?
Want to see? Paul says…
1Tim 3:1-7 (ESV)
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
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Great passage but does not deal with same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship.
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Why are we so keen to institutionalize divorce and remarriage? Why do we accept such a trojan horse? Not only is it generally condemned in Scripture but society itself recognises its problems. The percentage of breakdown in second marriages is considerably higher than in firsts (almost double): the baggage the new marriage brings puts a considerable strain on it from the word go; children may accept a divorce but rarely accept and settle well to a remarriage; and if you have broken vows a first time its easier to do so the second time. If the increasing incidence of divorce and remarriage in society is wreaking havoc there what will a similar pattern mean for the church?
Priorities, Pastor. Priorities.
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1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
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Conservative evangelicals simply cannot hold with integrity a firm line on what the Bible teaches on homosexuality while driving a truck through its teaching on divorce and remarriage. It’s easy to be principled about issues we rarely face: it is much harder to be principled about issues that sit on our lap. Yet it is precisely here that our faithfulness to Christ is tested and found out.</i<
Your faithfulness to Christ is wanting, Pastor.
I will pray for you.
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1Tim 3:1-7 — Confirm marriage is between one man and one woman… Which kills your idea and teaching that God is ok with same sex marriage
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Notice that what is an ‘ought’ for all Christians is a ‘must’ for spiritual leaders. Leaders (elders) must be ‘above reproach’. Notice too what the first example of being ‘above reproach’ is; he must be ‘the husband of one wife’. Paul’s point is that while people may be converted and become part of the church with ‘anomalous’ relationships (perhaps polygamous marriage or perhaps an unlawful remarriage) such believers should not hold office in the church. The anomalous relationship (that could not be undone) debarred them from public leadership in the church because it was a poor witness to the world and poor example other believers.
Church leaders cannot simply bow to the wishes of the divorcee who wants to remarry. They have an obligation to uphold by both example and command the dominical and apostolic teaching on divorce and remarriage.
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Your problem with divorce and remarraige is you are not able to understnd how these these passage work in the relationship of divorce and remarraige.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
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The reason you can not understand it, is because you need the issue of divorce and remarraige in order to support you idea and teaching on same sex marriage.
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Have you noticed how hot and bothered (righteously indignant) we conservative evangelicals get about the acceptance of homosexuality by society and yet how apparently indifferent we are to divorce and remarriage in the church? We are appalled at the acceptance of homosexuality by the world and indeed by the wider church and yet divorce and remarriage in conservative evangelical circles today scarcely raises a concerned eyebrow.
There is a basic inconsistency here. There is deep hypocrisy.
The God who condemns homosexual relationships equally is opposed to divorce and remarriage. He is the God who says:
Mal 2:16 (RSV)
“For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel… So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless.”
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lets break in down for you in order to help you understand….
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation
What does that mean? It means the old person and their sinful condition is forgiven and changed. In the person who comes to Christ is now made right in the eyes of God.
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No, Pastor.
The reason you cannot fathom your own undying sin is that you are immersed in it so deeply that it causes and allows you to pervert the Word of God in such a way that it would make the most hard-hearted gay person seem like a saint by comparison.
You need to twist it in order to defend your own sin while condemning another’s. You need to justify the failed priorities of evangelicals such as yourself in American Society.
You are, at bottom, deeply ashamed of your sin… and yet you embrace it and encourage it and spread false teachings in the name of Our Lord.
This is why I will pray for you, Pastor. Forgiveness, Mercy and Grace are available to all.
Even you and me.
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“old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new”
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What passes away all of our sinful mistakes which would enclude divorce and remarraige….
“Now all thinges have become new”".. Which means every thing has changed in the eyes of God. It means He no longer wholes us accountable for our past mistakes, which would enclude divorce and remarraige…. The marriage is made New in the eyes of God due to the reconciliation. Which again you are struggling to understand. Because it takes away one of your arguments and reason to support sexual sin.
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No, Pastor.
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So 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
cannot apply to marriage. So Christ death on the cross is not strong enough to overcome divorce and remarriage… An the word of God is wrong when it states “old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” That your christ is unable to overcome divorce and remarriage and that he is unable to change that marriage in the eye of god.
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By your logic, a committed gay couple could become a new creation on their deathbeds, and become a new creation and fly away to Heaven. So, then, we should encourage them to marry here on earth.
Moll Flanders, huh? It’s a more than trifle inconsistent.
I’m not struggling to understand anything at all. You are.
The sexual sins that you sanction are no different than those you condemn.
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Hmmmm. I am glad I believe in the power of
reconciliation found in 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
It brings hope for those who are divorce and remarriage. That they can find salvation and renew their marriage in the eye of God. That Christ death on the cross is strong enough to over come a divoprce and remarriage
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By your logic, a committed gay couple could become a new creation on their deathbeds, and become a new creation and fly away to Heaven. —
can someone come to Christ on their death bed. Yes….
“So, then, we should encourage them to marry here on earth.” No why would you encourage someone to live in sin here on earth, when you know it goes agaisnt God’s Word.
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Adding fuel to the fire, noted Southern Baptist theologian Dr. Albert Mohler published an article putting more pressure on the growing Christian crisis when he asked how is it that evangelicals can be firmly against on gay marriage when so many of their own marriages are on the rocks. As Dr. Mohler said, “Evangelical Christians and Christians at large would have a great deal more credibility in speaking to the marriage question, the divorce question, the same sex marriage controversy, or any part of it, if our divorce rates were remarkably lower than that of the greater culture, of the larger world and that is not the case.”
Mohler says that because the church struggles to accept Christian divorce as biblically permissible, but continues to insist that gay marriage is biblically wrong, it undermines any credibility they might have had. As Mohler noted, “It is a scandal that we have allowed other issues to crowd out our concern for divorce and frankly our acceptance of the culture of divorce even among the Christian churches.” Mark Smith also noted that gay marriage and abortion issues currently dominate the evangelical political agenda because those are the issues that motivate people to get out and vote at the polls. Even though the high rate of divorce among evangelical Christians is definitely a bigger problem for Christian families than gay marriage or abortion, divorce issues just don’t have the same impact at the polls
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No why would you encourage someone to live in sin here on earth, when you know it goes agaisnt God’s Word.
That is precisely what YOU are doing, Pastor.
Adultery is a sin.
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The sexual sins that you sanction are no different than those you condemn.
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What am I sanction? I am sanction marriage that has been renew thru the power of Christ…. I am sanctiona marriage that verus17 comes into play in “17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” I am sanction someone who comes to the saving knowledge of Christ. That has repented of their sins and turn all of their lives over to Christ and has been reconciliated with God.
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more talking points from other that are not backed with GOd’s Word,
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No why would you encourage someone to live in sin here on earth, when you know it goes agaisnt God’s Word.
That is precisely what YOU are doing, Pastor.
Adultery is a sin
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Again go back to “he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” That is what I am promoting. A view backed by God’s Word unlike your view on same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship.
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Oh, but Pastor, they are…
So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone nor marry someone who is divorced. There is an exception to the rule, however. If spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is in adulterer. Remember that 80% of this country is Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery, which implies that Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?
1) “So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9).
2) “Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matthew 5:32, 19:9 & Luke 16:18).
3) “Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery” (Matthew 5:32).
4) “…whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her” (Mark 10:11 & Luke 16:18), which applies to women as well (Mark 10:12).
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I am sanction marriage that has been renew thru the power of Christ…
What are you promoting lucycat?
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Again prove marriage is between a man and a woman. All those views were pre – cross… Which means no reconciliated with God… When Christ dies on the cross he took the sins of the world and yes all the punishment of those versus onto Himslef so men and women can be reconciliated with God.
The post – cross is clear which you reject… 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
So yuo see when they come to Jesus CHrist forgiveness their divorce and remarriage is done away with. THeir marriage is MADE NEW IN THE EYES OF CHRIST>
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<i<Let me ask a question. Which is worse? Homosexuality or Adultery? Why is it that we will remove and scorn the “homosexual” yet provide grace to the adulterer? I will tell you why. Because it would be very uncomfortable to remove people from our fellowship and risk losing people who are sympathetic towards their sin. Oh yes. Remarriage is a sin and not only that, it is a sin that we continue in if we continue in the “marriage”.
What I said may be hard to swallow but please don’t write me off if you have made it this far. Listen to the words of Jesus:
18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Now I didn’t say this Jesus did. We have no problem using Jesus’ words when they are comfortable but hard sayings like this are often glossed over. Again Jesus says “if you remarry or marry a divorced person you are in adultery”. I have come to the personal conclusion that a remarried person who was divorced from their spouse lives in perpetual adultery. I don’t believe Jesus ever recognizes that marriage. If so when does He start? At what point is the couple no longer committing adultery in their relationship? It seems like saying “sorry” but moving forward is not acceptable. To say sorry and then get married is open defiance and is no different than the Homosexual who gets married. The homosexual is doing for love right? Is there love any less than the person who is divorced (other than for marital unfaithfulness)? Just like a homosexual can’t romantically involve him or herself in a relationship with the same sex. Neither can the person who has been divorced against God’s revealed will.
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So yuo see when they come to Jesus CHrist forgiveness power, their divorce and remarriage is done away with. THeir marriage is MADE NEW IN THE EYES OF CHRIST>
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Jesus said: “It is adultery.”
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Here is the catch they must surrender their marriage to Christ
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Now I didn’t say this Jesus did. We have no problem using Jesus’ words when they are comfortable but hard sayings like this are often glossed over. Again Jesus says “if you remarry or marry a divorced person you are in adultery”. I have come to the personal conclusion that a remarried person who was divorced from their spouse lives in perpetual adultery. I don’t believe Jesus ever recognizes that marriage. If so when does He start?
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The Cross is the starting point.
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At what point is the couple no longer committing adultery in their relationship?
At the point when “17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” is apply to their lives…
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The same standard Christians are superimposing on others they themselves do not subject themselves to. We have proven to be nothing more than a band of hypocrites, yelling guilty while guilty ourselves.
Think about it. This Christmas how many kids will be affected by gay marriage? Even if it were legal in all states how many kids will be affected? It is estimated that less than 1% of the population would get married (don’t forget not all gays want to get married just like not all heterosexuals want to get married). Do you know how many families will beaAffected by heterosexual divorce though? Millions! This doesn’t include those who are “legally” separated or just plain separated.
Listen to me. Every time a “pastor” marries a person who has been divorced unbiblically they attack and degrade the institution of marriage. Everytime a Christian walks out on his/her family they are attacking the institution of marriage. The church is the first line of defense on issues of marriage, yet they rather attack the nonbeliever than having judgment begin with the household of God. It is much easier to deflect the deplorable trend of divorces that is attacking our country. The church is worried about having to marry “gays” yet they don’t even prevent the marriages they do have control over. Pastor’s stand behind pulpits yelling insults and demonizing gays yet they bless adulterous relationships quite often. I saw all of the pastors signing the “Manhattan Declaration” yet other than a couple of brief mentions they say little on divorce, yet have huge paragraphs about promiscuity and homosexual marriage.
Either the church takes a stand or shut up! We can’t protect the “instituion” of marriage if we are not going to take a stand on divorce and remarriage. Lets take the log out of our eyes before we march alway to Capitol Hill to take the stick out of others.
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Your magical “new creation” and “Christ changed His mind on the cross” ideas are interesting…
… but they don’t support your view.
I will continue to pray for you, Pastor.
Good day.
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To say sorry and then get married is open defiance and is no different than the Homosexual who gets married. The homosexual is doing for love right? Is there love any less than the person who is divorced (other than for marital unfaithfulness)? Just like a homosexual can’t romantically involve him or herself in a relationship with the same sex. Neither can the person who has been divorced against God’s revealed will.
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The different is as you pointed marriage is BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN (so you can not promote same sex marraige then) when that marriage is renew thru Cross it becomse new… Unlike same sex marriage that can not be renewed.
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Your magical “new creation” and “Christ changed His mind on the cross” ideas are interesting…
… but they don’t support your view.
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What part of “old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” do you not understand?
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more talking point not backed by God’s Word. I see.
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You keep proving someone else talking points I keep proving the Word of God.
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You HAVE proved something, Pastor.
It just wasn’t what you think you did, and it has about as much to do with the Word of God as a salsa recipe.
Praying for you.
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lucycat – where are the passages show God is ok with same sex marriage and homosexuality relationship?
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Game over, Pastor. I will pray for you.
First, while the Bible and Jesus say many important things about love and family, neither explicitly defines marriage as between one man and one woman. And second, as the examples above illustrate, no sensible modern person wants marriage—theirs or anyone else’s — to look in its particulars anything like what the Bible describes. “Marriage” in America refers to two separate things, a religious institution and a civil one, though it is most often enacted as a messy conflation of the two. As a civil institution, marriage offers practical benefits to both partners: contractual rights having to do with taxes; insurance; the care and custody of children; visitation rights; and inheritance. As a religious institution, marriage offers something else: a commitment of both partners before God to love, honor and cherish each other—in sickness and in health, for richer and poorer—in accordance with God’s will. In a religious marriage, two people promise to take care of each other, profoundly, the way they believe God cares for them. Biblical literalists will disagree, but the Bible is a living document, powerful for more than 2,000 years because its truths speak to us even as we change through history. In that light, Scripture gives us no good reason why gays and lesbians should not be (civilly and religiously) married—and a number of excellent reasons why they should.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/12/05/our-mutual-joy.html
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Jesus’ commandment to love one another supersedes all others. Additionally, Galatians 3:28 says: “there is neither male nor female.”
If gender doesn’t matter, love within genders cannot be called a sin.
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Then there is the pesky matter of Psalm 139…
http://www.bartleby.com/108/19/139.html
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Game over, Pastor
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True since you have not provide any passage to support you false teaching.
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If gender doesn’t matter, love within genders cannot be called a sin.
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Galatians 3:26-30
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Again no relationship to you promoting of sexual sin..
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Jesus’ commandment to love one another supersedes all others.
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Again the great commandment has no relationship to you supporting sexual a sin.
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What I have provided, you have not accepted, while you seem to be wallowing in sexual sin of your own.
Praying for your eternal soul, Pastor.
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You try your divorce and remarriage attack on God’s Word and failed to get around the Cross of Christ and Christ’s being about to renew some one marriage… As since with versus 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new
You have try to get around the idea of “old thngs have passed away;all things have become new. ” But can not get pass the Cross and Christ being able to reconcil all thing to God.
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You have provided nothing showing God is approving same sex marriage. I have provide passages after passage showing that marriage for a CHristian (which you are not) is between one man and one woman
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Psalm 139 is great, there is not pesky matter… For Christian their is strenght found in it.
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while you seem to be wallowing in sexual sin of your own.
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What are you talking about? Since You have promote and defend sexual sin… I have shown you the strenght of the Cross and how Christ can reconciled a divore and remarriage….to God… Which you must reject because it would weekend you arugment for same sex marriage.
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Pastor, you do not get to decide who is a Christian and who is not.
I, personally, find your perversion of God’s Word to support your own sinful lifestyle to be an abomination. But I do not know your heart. I only know that your heretical comments on the subjects of divorce and remarriage, your defense of bullying of gay students, your attempts to demonize gay people… all these are not the mark or fruit of a Christian.
Which is exactly why, Pastor, I will pray for your soul.
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ob 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the
hypocrite but for a moment?
Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained,
when God taketh away his soul?
Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through
knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luke 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:31
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.
Luke 6:36
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Matt 5:43-44
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;
Matt 19:19
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.
Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Luke 6:27
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
which hate you,
John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Gal 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1Thes 3:12
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward
another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1Thes 4:8
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath
also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1 Pet 2:17
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1 Pet 3:8
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another,
love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
I Jn 3:11
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we
should love one another.
I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
I Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of
his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us
commandment.
I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
I Jn 4:11
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
I Jn 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God
dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
I Jn 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and
God in him.
I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath not seen?
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What comes down this debate is you look to society for your direction, I look to God’s Word for direction.
You look to mental health group to support and approve your view, I look to God’s Word to support and approve my view.
You down grade the work of Christ on the Cross and reject the idea of “all things become new”, I point people to the Cross and the joy of knowing that I can come to Christ and thru His Love, Mercy, and Grace all things are made new. Which encludes someone who made the mistake of divorce and remarriage.
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none of those passage at 449 deal with the sexual sin of same sex marriage and the GLBT Community… Good try…
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Pastor, you do not get to decide who is a Christian and who is not.
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No, GOd’s Word does and you have failed the Word of God.
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I, personally, find your perversion of God’s Word to support your own sinful lifestyle to be an abomination. But I do not know your heart. I only know that your heretical comments on the subjects of divorce and remarriage,
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again your failure to understand the Word of GOd is shown again… an i have no idea of what sinful lifestyle to be an abomination, you believe i am involved… Since I have been married one time to the same woman for going on 24 years.
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The Bible tells me that it is God’s duty to judge people, not mine. The Bible tells me to live in Jesus’ image, and that means I’m supposed to “love one another” as he has loved me/follow the “golden rule”.
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your defense of bullying of gay students, your attempts to demonize gay people
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I have never defend the bullying of gay students.. I have been clear all bullying is wrong… You with no proof have blamed the Christian for the bullying…. I have not demonized gay people, I have been clear their life stlye is called a sexual sin.. Which they can find forgiveness and strenght to come it thru the cross of Christ.
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The Bible warns of false teacher like you, who are destroying the Word of God which is used to promote sin. Which you are doing.
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Pastor, how many husbands has you wife had and what became of them. How many wives have you had and what became of them?
Do you think that any of the oft-divorced and remarried “Christians” in your congregation are not committing adultery? Do you pervert the Word by celebrating their “marriages”?
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The Bible tells me to live in Jesus’ image, and that means I’m supposed to “love one another” as he has loved me/follow the “golden rule”.
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Jesus confront sin, time and time again. He did not support sin… If you love one another, you would point them to the Cross of Christ to find forgiveness of their sins, not try to find away to promote ther sins.
The “Golden Rule is based surrender your life to Christ and following the Word of God… Which you have rejected
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1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21-7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev. 1-9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination — Lev. 11:10 — it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality; I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)
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Pastor, how many husbands has you wife had and what became of them. How many wives have you had and what became of them?
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We both have only been married to each other… Good try…
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I am confronting sin as Christ did.
YOUR sin, Pastor.
You have rejected the Word of God.
This is why I will pray for you.
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Do you think that any of the oft-divorced and remarried “Christians” in your congregation are not committing adultery? Do you pervert the Word by celebrating their “marriages”?
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If they have repent and turn to Christ all things become new.
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“By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:33-35) That is scripture, and that is the most important thing. It is not “love” to condemn or exclude homosexuals or deny their rights. I don’t claim to have an explanation as to why people are gay or straight, but I know that as a Christian it is wrong for me to judge or condemn anyone else, and right for me to love and accept them. The law of love transcends all else.
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As for 459 – Jewish Law was for the Jewish people… The Chrisitan are under the Cross
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lucycat – what you have done is take society view an apply to your understand of God’s Word… In stead of taken God’s Word an apply to your life.
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Re: 462 – how many times do they get to do that?
3, like Newt Gingrich?
2, like Reagan?
Ted Haggard?
John Paulk?
Paul Crouch?
Lonnie Frisbee?
Billy James Hragis?
George Rekers?
Lonnie Latham?
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.
That verse is from John chapter 8 verse 7 (John 8:7)
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Switch gears
” It is not “love” to condemn or exclude homosexuals or deny their rights”
Back to this arugment again… Lost the divorce battle at the cross so back to this….
no on are denty anyone their rights..
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God’s Word applies to my life. The Great Commandment is the most important one.
You seem to have very skewed priorities, Pastor.
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When losing throw out anything that you can use to try and side track when unable to defeat the Word of God.
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No, you have not apply the Word of God to your life. If you have you would not be in here promote sexual sin…. Nor would your be reject the Work of the Cross… Because without the of the Cross there is no great commandment.. Because we could not restore to God.
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You seem to have very skewed priorities, Pastor
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The Cross is the priorite
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Pastor, what Christ did on the Cross is NOT your priority.
Christ acted out of love.
You act out of a lack of love.
It is that simple reason that you are on my prayer list.
When presented with your own hypocrisy, you call it a “side track”. It is not. You KNOW it is not.
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Matthew 23:27-28 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (NKJV)
I love to read the prayers and writing of the Puritans. Their devotion to a simple lifestyle and disciplined spiritual exercises allowed them a grasp on Godliness that is difficult to obtain in today’s distracting world. Recently, one thought really caught my attention. It went something like this:
“Lord, help me to not be a hypocrite, especially not an evangelical hypocrite; one who loves church and worship and religion but lives an unholy life”.
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Here’s the whole thing, Pastor, and you would do well to commit it to memory.
Of all hypocrites, grant that I may not be
an evangelical hypocrite,
who sins more safely because grace abounds,
who tells his lusts that Christ’s blood
cleanseth them,
who reasons that God cannot cast him into hell,
for he is saved,
who loves evangelical preaching, churches,
Christians, but lives unholily.
A Puritan prayer from the book Valley of Vision
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Pastor, what Christ did on the Cross is NOT your priority.
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Where do you think salvation begains? It starts at the Cross… Christ death on the Cross is where find forgiveness… It is our priority….
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Hypocrisy is preoccupied with legalistic details to the neglect of major moral issues…
“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practised the latter without leaving the former undone.”
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You do not believe in the Cross of Christ….
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You do NOT get to determine what I do and do not believe, Pastor.
Hypocrisy renders saving truth inaccessible to both the hypocrites themselves and to all those who depend on their testimony.
“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
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We call to point to the Cross because at the Cross, we find forgiveness, love, mercy, grace, strenght… You have no idea of the work that was done on cross by Christ.
You have a worldly view of love and a world view of God’s Word. You have no idea of what you are doing…You have no idea how far from Christ you are….It is sad… You believe you are doing God’s Will but are so far from Him….It is sad to see your statement here. To claim you are doing it in love of Christ but rejecting The Word in the process… Just to support something God has called sin..
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Does this ever enter your thoughts, Pastor?
Romans 7:14-25
New International Version (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[b] a slave to the law of sin.
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You do NOT get to determine what I do and do not believe, Pastor.
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based on the view you have present reveals you do not believe in the Cross of Christ….YOu don’t believe Christ is the only way to heaven… You do not believe unless man / woman repents of their sins and turn from their sin they can not come to God… You do not believe that Christ can set people free of their sins…
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that is based on just your comments
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You do NOT get to determine what I know of what Christ did on the cross, Pastor.
You do NOT determine the Word of God.
You do NOT determine my Christianity, nor my view of the world, nor love, nor Christ’s teachings.
And this may be something of a shock to you… but you do NOT comprehend the sin of your own nature and of your own words and acts, nor how they harm God’s children…
Which is why you need prayer, Pastor.
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lucycat – Paul is not saying it is ok for man to live in sin…. An you are saying it is ok for man to live in sin.
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You do NOT get to determine what I know of what Christ did on the cross, Pastor. — No you reveal in your comments that you understanding of the Cross is not based on God’s Word.
You do NOT determine the Word of God. — No God’s Word determines it self, but you have revealed in your comments that you do not understand GOd’s Word
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The Scandal Of The Evangelical Conscience and The Scandal Of The Evangelical Mind address this.
See Christianity Today: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/april/32.70.html
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Pastor, I understand God’s Word far better than you do.
What I do not understand is where your hate comes from. It is not from Christ. It is not from the Cross. It is not from the Bible.
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You do NOT determine my Christianity, nor my view of the world, nor love, nor Christ’s teachings. — God’s Word should determie the CHristian Faith, world view, love and Christ’s teaching, your comments have revealed you have a worldly view of all them.
And this may be something of a shock to you… but you do NOT comprehend the sin of your own nature and of your own words and acts, nor how they harm God’s children…— God’s Word is the standard an no one shold be afraid of God’s Word. my words here have point you to the Word of God.. YOur have not… as for harming God’s Children, you have promote society views on all the issues Not God’s Word
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We see how it is possible for a person
to be so zealous and fervent, always doing a lot of religious
talking, boldly attempting to “win souls”, involved in all
kinds of church activities, yet at the same time, be an
unhappy, angry, hate-filled person, confused and mixed up. On
the one hand we see all kinds of religious cant and pious talk
and on the other a person angry at the world, hostile, without
any warmth or love for others, a person putting the lie to
everything he says by everything he is. He lives in a home
filled with argument, strife and turmoil and is forever
gossiping and speaking badly of other people. It is all called
hypocrisy, that terrible sin that so often affects the
religious, the sin Jesus hated so much and condemned so
pitilessly.
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Pastor, I understand God’s Word far better than you do
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based on your comments you do not understand God’s Word you have fought against the Word of God no matter who here revealed it to you.
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There are reasons evangelicals get caught up in this web of
self-deception:
1. They believe, by their doctrine, that on becoming converted,
immediately on accepting Christ as Savior (i.e. “being saved”)
they are in some mystical way, suddenly transformed beings,
“new creatures in Christ Jesus”. Thus, because of this, they
tend to assume that they then have everything they need, all
the spirituality, wisdom and understanding that is to be had.
Thus there is no real impetus, no motivating force, to push
them to seek spirituality. They are taught not to trust their
feelings, that feelings lie; that if they don’t feel like a
Christian, if they feel a dearth of faith or belief or
spirituality, if they “don’t feel saved”, not to worry about
it; that feelings lie and are not to be trusted. They are
taught that “being a Christian” is not based on feelings but on
“promise” (God’s promise, as found in various scriptures, that
if they perform a certain action they are saved) — all of
this, just more of the grossest self-deception and personal
dishonesty.
2. They put up “evangelization” as the sole purpose of
Christianity, the one and only important responsibility of the
Christian. He has one mission, purpose and responsibility —
to “win souls”. Thus the attention given to spirituality, to
spiritual growth, to the need for spiritual understanding is
zero.
3. They argue that a person can’t be good on his own power, but
only as God gives him power — that Goodness is a fruit that
must come of itself.
And so we see that underneath a lot of religious talk and cant,
underneath religious zealousness, can be a lot of the most
grave self-deception, dishonesty and falseness. And all this
shows why a person who never goes to church may be a lot more
serious about God, a lot more spiritual really, than the most
religiously zealous person. And that is the reason why a very
religious person can have so many problems (emotional and
otherwise) and the person who never goes to church so few. The
main thrust of Christianity is to follow God’s holy law, follow
one’s conscience, be good and do good, and a person who has
never opened a Bible or gone to church can do that just from
his own conscience and good sense — and God honors him for
it.
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What I do not understand is where your hate comes from. It is not from Christ. It is not from the Cross. It is not from the Bible.
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Show me where I made a hatful comment… I have point you back to God’s Word time and time again… An you have gotten angry over it.
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#489 describes your comment toward people here on this stite
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your talking points at 491 again shows your hate toward the Christain Faith.
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You claim one thing but your actions toward the Christian Faith reveals your heart.
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492 – “Whatsoever you do to the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me.”
Agitating for civil inequality for gay people is hate.
Get your own house in order, Pastor.
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Be honest with yourself, Pastor, when you are alone with God.
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He that hath an ear, let him hear, Pastor:
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/NTLit/Week08Romans/Dockery-Rom7-GTJ-81.pdf
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Where perversion of God’s Word leads, Pastor.
http://www.dallasvoice.com/paris-attack-1093329.html
“By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:33-35)
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Promote same sex marriage still goes against God’s Word
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Ignoring The Great Commandment goes against God’s Word.
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Ignoring The Great Commandment goes against God’s Word.
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By standingg against sexual sin is not ignoring the great commandment. Supporting sexual sin is ignoring God’s Word.
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