Surprise! Iran has nukes
If ever there was a time when “see, I told you so” was warranted, it is now as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reports this week that Iran is close to developing a nuclear weapon.
That so many in the State Department over several administrations could deceive themselves into believing claims by the Iranians that their intentions are nothing but peaceful and their sole objective is to develop more sources of electricity for their country reminds me of the Munich Agreement of 1938. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with Adolf Hitler, thought they had an agreement concerning Czechoslovakia, shook hands on it, and then watched stupefied as Hitler boldly seized the country, en route to Poland, plunging Europe into greater turmoil.
What flummoxed Chamberlain, and modern-day apologists for evil, is their refusal to accept that dictators do not live by Western standards or think as we do. The U.S. State Department seems to believe dictators act the way they do because they have been deprived of things the West enjoys and that giving them what we think they need would cause them to act rationally. The corollary to that false premise is that if Western sanctions deprive them of what we consider “the good life,” they will be more likely to comply with our demands.
When Iran lies, the State Department believes the lies; when Iran tells the truth, say, about wishing to wipe Israel off the map, State doesn’t believe it.
On a visit to Washington Tuesday, Israeli Cabinet Minister Uzi Landau told me, “No sanction can convince the Iranians. The only time Iran became serious (about Western threats) was in 2003 when the U.S. went into Iraq.”
That’s when Iran appeared to some to have suspended its nuclear program, fearing the United States might bomb or invade Iran. Secret intelligence provided to the IAEA strongly suggests Iran continued its push for nuclear weapons.
Breaking news: Islamists lie!
What about the “land for peace” formula that has been the accepted doctrine of so many U.S. administrations? Does Landau think that formula is still valid? Not surprisingly, he does not, nor does he believe it ever was a workable formula. “The root cause of the conflict in the region,” he said, “is the total refusal by Palestinians and Arab states to accept a Jewish state of any size.”
How could anyone credibly argue with him, given the statements to that affect by the Palestinian leadership and some Muslim and Arab political leaders throughout the region?
Israel once again is virtually alone in dealing with the threats it faces. Landau said, “Israel isn’t the problem. The Western world is the problem [for Islamists]. The radicals are focusing not just on Israel, but the world.”
French President Nicolas Sarkozy and President Obama were caught with their microphones still on after a news conference at the G-20 meeting in Cannes, France. According to the website Arret Sur Images, Sarkozy said about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, “I can’t look at him anymore, he’s a liar,” to which Obama reportedly replied, “You’re fed up with him, but I have to deal with him every day.” That’s not exactly a confidence builder for Israel and the West that these two leaders understand where the real threat is coming from.
Daniel Pipes understands. At National Review Online, Pipes, president of the Middle East Forum, wrote, “Islamism is the third totalitarian ideology (following fascism and communism).”
The question now is will the rest of the world develop a strategy for destroying (not containing, because it will not be contained) Islamism as it did fascism and communism? The IAEA report requires even more urgency in pursuit of this objective, but remarks in Cannes by Sarkozy and Obama are not a reason for optimism that they understand what will be necessary to confront and defeat this third totalitarian ideology.
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back to top47 Comments to “Surprise! Iran has nukes”
So should Batman kill the Joker, just because the Joker wants to watch the world burn?
Let Iran be stupid enough to fire a nuke. Go right ahead. I don’t think they are that dumb. Israel will wipe it off the map.
You realize that we are going go to war with Iran already. That’s been the plan the last 10 years easily. We surrounded it.
Why else would Obama not ask for more time in Iraq? Why? Because he’s going to gear up to hit Iran.
Watch the tagline will be: THERE ARE WMDs…and if the “supposed wmds” were good enough for Bush, well that justifies Obama for sure.
And so Congress will agree, even if Obama doesn’t ask, and before he leaves office we will have troops on the ground in Iran at war.
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Question for those who think the West should strike first. You know elections in Iran were rigged, you know the Iranian people are angry at their government. Are you going to kill innocent people, who don’t want a war with the West, because they suffer under a corrupt government?
As I’ve said before, if Ahmadinejab starts a war, he’s going to have to fight it by himself, his people won’t fight and his allies are tied up in their own problems. This isn’t a case of a Hitler worshipped by the masses.
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There is great evil and pain in store for this world and the innocent will suffer and we will all wonder how could God allow it? Well, we put in leaders at the top like Obama with worshipful support as if they were gods. He has done nothing to stop this horrific development nor does he care. Nor do the media. We give them our souls, allowing them to knowingly lie to us with our support and praise–and we knew it. Some politicians care for nothing but their own power and status but Obama is much much worse. He actually cares for the total fundamental change of America so she will not and cannot ever again be what she was founded to be. He even declared as much and we loved him for it. And he is succeeding with the people’s support and approval. And the way America now destroys children and families, we may be nearly as evil in God’s eyes as Iran.
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Most of the U.S. dead and wounded in the wars and conflicts in the Middle East (caused and funded by Islamists like the Iranian leaders, Hezbolla, Hamas, and Al Qaeda and others) were DIRECT results of Iran’s concerted efforts in particular to maim and kill as many Americans as possible. And they have been very successful and will continue with more boldness than ever now. But most Americans don’t REALLY care about the blood of fellow Americans or who REALLY is to blame for them. Too many of us just care about who to blame on our side so that their partisan side can have more power.
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Iranian-origin IEDs are killing your sons and daughters ea day in both Iraq and Afghanistan. So they have already declared war on us. And Iraq’s Muqtada Al-Sadr? Guess where he vacations? Iran.
As long as he looked East Saddam Hussein was not our biggest enemy. Too bad realpolitik wouldnt allow any type of bargain with Hussein. And the anti-regime Iranians in Iraq? Why do we treat them as terrorists? They’re the regions anti-Ahmadinejad contras and we should be backing them 100%.
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1. More mendacity to panic the masses: “Surprise! Iran has nukes” is not the same thing as “Iran is close to developing a nuclear weapon.”
2. And so what if they do (have) or are (developing) a nuclear weapon? Israel — Iran’s presumptive target and “our only ally/ the only democracy in the Middle East” — has something like 300. And the means of delivery.
And according to WikiPedia, the US has 1,950 active warheads, and 8,500 warheads total.
But the State must have enemies to fight.
And this is how the people are propagandized into supporting it.
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Sawgunner (5): Iranian-origin IEDs are killing your sons and daughters ea day in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Frank: Ummm … Bring our sons and daughters home from Iraq and Afghanistan?
What, our sons and daughter must be blown up over there, so that they’re not blown up over here?
Ever heard of Robert Pape’s book Dying to Win?
We intervene in the Middle East and are somehow shocked … SHOCKED … that radical elements in that region are “blowing up our sons and daughters with IEDs … ”
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Phos,
Bingo.
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Did you know one of the founding members of the PLO is now a Christan? The Bible is our greatest weapon against the advance of radical Islam. The people of Iran are not the threat and we are not going to win a spiritual battle with bigger nukes. We will win if we love our neighbour as ourselves.
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#6 – “But the State must have enemies to fight.”
I disrespect this comment by FRANK. It is grossly irresponsible and morally blind. The problem is serious. Evil is real in this world. Iran is our enemy because THEY chose to be so a long time ago. They have been at war with us for a long time. We did not choose that, IRAN did and they have been acting on that choice for a long time. They have been shedding American blood for well over a decade in huge numbers. Their threats have clearly been Hitlerian (holocaust denying and declarations of our and Israel’s total extermination and destruction) and too many Americans have been Chaberlinarian in response for too long.
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Mr. Obama will not move against Iran, the reason is he would have to fight Hamas, the Muslim Brother Hood etc.
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Joel Mark (10): Iran is our enemy because THEY chose to be so a long time ago.
Frank: Really? When was that?
And do you think that their “choice to be our enemy” might have anything even remotely to do with the CIA-aided overthrow of the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953, followed by our subsequent support of the tyrannical Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi for 25+ years?
Or maybe you don’t think that our meddling in Iranian affairs comes with any unintended consequuences?
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Joel Mark,
What kind of choice did we make against Iran when we overthrew Mossadegh?
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Why do Sarkozy and Obama stand around and agree with each other that Netanyahu is a liar? Is it the settlement thing? Did Netanyahu REALLY agree not to build more settlements?
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FRANK IN SPOKANE, in my view, you are very consistent in your reolute unwillingness to listen to reason regarding Iran. But I will respond for the sake of others who can decide for themselves what is going on.
No, I don’t think the “choice to be our enemy” made by the current Islamist radicals leading Iran had much of anything to do with the Iranian overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953 or with our peaceful relations with Iran under the Shah Mohammad Reza.
Iran’s leaders made the choice to be at war with us and make us their enemy countless times and have decalred so often.
The religious and political convictions if the Iranian revolutionary leadership spring from an ancient imperialist ethos that still clearly boils in their hearts, regardless of our policies. For them, Jihad is the permanent state of relations between Moslems and non-Moslems. Any and all peace or ceasefire accords are temporary and tenuous, by intention. Their stated goal, like that of all radical Islamists, is to subjugate us all to their religion and laws.
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FRANK IN SPOKANE, and others interested in the current longstanding Iranian threat.
The mantra, “Death to America” has been ringing in Iranian ears for years.
Here is what Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in 2006; “God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism.”
Ahmadinejad has also publicly called for Israel to be “wiped off the map.” (from a speech on October 26, 2006). It was declared in an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, ‘The World Without Zionism.’
Before that, on August 4, 2006, the President of Iran announced, “A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel.” (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website).
Ahmadinejad has repeatedly denied the holocaust as well, calling it a “myth” and a “lie.”
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The Iranian revolutionary state has engaged in sustained terrorist violence and warfare in many against us as their chosen enemy ways for years, overt and covert.
* They created Hezbollah, a vicious terrorist organization, as well as Islamic Jihad, the Revolutionary Justice Organization, and others. They have supported Hamas and Ahmad Jibril’s PFLP-GC. These surrogates have perpetrated countless terrorist attacks on innocents.
* Iran was behind the bombing on the U.S. embassy in Beirut in 1983 which slaughtered hundreds of American soldiers in their beds, as well as the suicide/homicide truck bomb attack on U.S. Marines at Beirut airport that same year.
* The kidnapping, torture, and murder of William Buckley, our CIA station chief was Iranian backed terror.
* The 1984 bombing of a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force base in Spain killing 18 U.S. servicemen was Iranian backed terror.
* The hijacking of Kuwaiti Air Flight 221 in which a USAID worker was murdered and dropped on the tarmac was Iranian backed terror.
* The hijacking of TWA Flight 847 and the murder of Robert Dean Stethem was Iranian backed terror.
* The kidnapping of 96 Western hostages in Lebanon was Iranian backed terror.
This is an extremely short list.
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Because FRANK IN SPOKANE asked…
Iran also has a long history of cooperating with Sunni terrorists like al-Qaida. Remember the truck bombs that murdered seventeen Americans in a Riyadh neighborhood in May, 2003? They were coordinated from Iran. The 9/11 Commission report also pointed out that Iran has a longstanding relationship with al-Qaida. Plus, a large proportion of the lethal weapons and bomb devices used in Iraq and Afghanistan are from Iran.
Genuine peacemakers don’t ignore direct threats and saber rattling Adolf Hitler promised to dominate the world and kill Jews and the world ignored him. The murderous Marxist-Leninist reign of Josef Stalin was willfully minimized by New York Times reporters (in Stalin’s favor) as well. We don’t want to admit that evil exists.
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QUOTATION:
“…The regime in Iran has been killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan for many years and has sworn countless times in the past 30 years to preside over the destruction of the United States. If it wasn’t for a lucky break, Washington D.C., this autumn, would have been the scene of a massive explosion detonated at a high-end restaurant, with scores and perhaps hundreds killed and maimed.” Mona Charen (Oct. 17, 2011).
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The operative phrase in your last quote being, “… Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan …”
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QUOTES from Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (please take note of the first one FRANK IN SPOKANE and the use of the word “war” and the reason for it and who all is involved in it):
* “Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny.” ~ Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, ‘The World Without Zionism’)
* “Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map for great justice and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine.” Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Speech, October 26, 2005
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FRANK IN SPOKANE,
The operative fact is that Americans were in Afghanistan for obvious just reasons (after 9/11) and I think in Iraq for just reasons as well. But Iran had no business in these other nations as infiltrators and invaders themselves without just cause, to slaughter Americans who were there in both places (in Iraq as actual allies) to maintain security and rebuild the infrustructure and liberate the peoples there from the worst evil in our time–Islamic fascism.
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All my posts above constitute strong substantive reasons to reject Ron Paul as a candidate for the Cammander-in-Chief because of his irresponsible and unrealistic stances and statements (often made in debates and elsewhere) toward Iran–often blaming the U.S. far more than the Iranians for the murders and slaughter that Iran is perpetrating in the Middle East. He thinks Iran has as much right as any nation on earth to have nukes. The U.S. has remained in the Middle East to stop the vicious murders which Iran is committed to continue. The just war of the West (and others in Asia as allies) against global jihadist terrorism will not be close to being over until Iran is dealt with firmly. Sorry if realism hurts.
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#22 – I spoke generally but we were and are in different locations for an assortment of reasons, but the war against Islamist fascism (I realize Saddam was a brutal tyrant but not necessarily an Islamist in the same sense that the Iranian mullahs are) has been and remains part of the reason for our presence there in each different case.
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The fact remains that if the US had not overthrown the Iranian democracy, the current Iranian government would never have formed. Likewise, if we had not messed around in Afghanistan during the Russo-Afghan war, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda would never have had the training necessary to threaten the US.
Iran has as much of a right as every other nation has a right to have nukes. It is impossible to argue otherwise unless you claim that not all men are created equal. No one is going to use them though cause if they do, they will be nuked into oblivion.
If we actually altered our foreign policy to support the Iranian people, Iranians will stop supporting their current government. The current government is solely organized around revenge on the US for what we did 58 years ago. If we take away their claim to power, they will lose it, and Iranians will rebel from their government if no peaceful transition of power is allowed. It is important to remember that Iranians are not Arab, and do not have the same historical animosity with Israel that Arabia does.
The fact is the US created the mess that is now Iran, and was Afghanistan and Iraq. We prolonged the war between Iran and Iraq, sold Hussein chemical weapons to use on Iranians and Kurds (who are Christian in case you care) and trained the taliban & Al-Qaeda, and trained members of the PLO and Hamas. In our foolish peace attempts, we trained Israel’s enemies and gave them support to get them to be nice to Israel.
This foreign policy madness must end.
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ROM116,
The fact remains that the US did not directly overthrow the Iranian democracy. Let’s state it correctly. Iranians did that, with some U.S. support. Extremely dangerous forces were at play because the USSR and others were exerting their influence and support and it may have been foolish for us to stay passive and out of that situation.
When history takes its course, all we have are hypothetical theories about what would have happened otherwise. If you understand statecraft, and foreign policy, we never have perfect options and it is far too easy to cherry pick and criticize difficult options in long-distant hindsight. There are too many historical hypotheticals at play to be so simplist about criticizing decisions made in a climate and a context that the critics have forgotten.
But none of that much matters with regard to the dangerous situation we have today and the difficutl options facing us now. The reason Iran hates us is tied to imperialistic maniacle radical religious roots in the mullahs. They would hate us and make us their enemy regardless of what did and do then and now.
My belief remains that if it weren’t for the sacrifices of the USA military over the last three decades and beyond, the world would be a far far worse plance and far far more dangerous.
It is nuts to say that Iran has as much right as other nations to have nukes. One would have to be in a moral coma to think that.
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ROM116, wrote; “The current government is solely organized around revenge on the US for what we did 58 years ago.”
This is absurd and ridiculous. This is a very reductionist and simplistic way to look at their motives and the nature of their government. First, it is Israel that they hate worse than us and that hatred has little to do with anything we did.
ROM116, wrote; “It is important to remember that Iranians are not Arab, and do not have the same historical animosity with Israel that Arabia does.”
NONSENSE!!!! Of course they are not Arab but that does not mitigate their hatred of Israel one iota.
The US did not create this mess. That is so simplistic and wrong-headed. Whether all our policies and actions have been perfect for all, that’s another matter. Remember, statecraft involves human beings.
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Rom 116 – What do you mean by historical animosity between Arabs and Jews? the animosity predicted in Genesis was between Esau and Jacob. There are Arab Bedu in Israel who consider it a point of honour to fight for Israel. The animosity is between Muslims and Jews.
JM – The CIA had a direct hand in bringing the Shah to power – it was their intent to, just as they brought Chilean dictator Augusto Pinocet to power. There is no shame in a country admitting it was wrong in the past. Germany has done well since they admitted the Holocaust was a terrible sin.
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Why do Sarkozy and Obama stand around and agree with each other that Netanyahu is a liar?
When they shared this with each other they were seated. It’s inconceivable they didn’t know the mic was open.
The truth hurts, doesn’t it?
I would have been shocked if they had been caught praising his veracity. Netanyahu lied when he claimed that Obama is demanding that Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders.
Netanyahu is a treacherous ally. As if Israel shouldn’t already have public relations problems in the world enough.
Israelis need to get rid of this thug. It has to find its way in the world as a normal country rather than as a failed state with nukes and Teavangelical dominionists.
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Oh, come on — the government deceives itself all the time over many administrations. If it didn’t, we wouldn’t be in the debt we’re in.
We helped these clowns to take power just as we are now doing with Libyan — and it always comes back to bite us you know where. It is high time that we learn to mind our own business. That said, Israel is our business. I wouldn’t go looking for a fight with Iran, but if they bomb Israel, I’d nuke ‘em and put an end to it real fast.
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Face up to what Islam really is and where it wants to take the world. No place good.
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PHOS, it is my understanding that the CIA played a vital role in bringing the Shah to power (replacing a leader who many think was much worse) and it was with more than just monetary support. We had some people over there. But Iranians played the direct role in it and I would call the CIA’s role vital but secondary. That’s just my recall. These things are not done in a vacuum or directly by one party.
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Who has made a responsible case that Netanyaho is a liar? On what bases can you claim, SCROOP MOTH, that this is “the truth”? Please make a cogent case before you grandstand on something you do not even know. Are Obama and Sarkosi publically standing up to affirm that he is a liar? Are they standing by what they said at a live mic? If not, why not?
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#30 – “It is high time that we learn to mind our own business. That said, Israel is our business.”
Sorry, but this seems contradctory in my view.
#30 – “I wouldn’t go looking for a fight with Iran, but if they bomb Israel, I’d nuke ‘em and put an end to it real fast.”
Sorry, but that is too too too late!
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There are place we should not intervene. Israel is not one of them. The Israelis will take action, I think, to defend themselves, and we have to back up that action. I suppose it is possible that the Iranians will just send a nuke, but these things are usually the result of an escalation.
Minding our own business mean staying out of what the Muslims do to each other (like in Libya and Africa). There are other countries in the world that should step up to the plate. We don’t have to be big honcho telling people what to do all the time.
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This is why you don’t put your country (US) into debt:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/11/10/china-irans-new-best-friend/
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My point, NJLAWYER, is that pretty much any decision on our part for action (or non-action) in the Middle East can impact Israel in some way due to the universal hatred directed against them and the threats to their existence. Of couse there are places we should not intervene, but to say as you did that that Israel is our business is to necessarily say that the goings on in the Middle East is, at least in part, our business. We must still use careful discretion over every option but it’s too simplistic to say on one hand that we should nimd our own business and then say Israel is our business on the other hand. As for staying out of what Muslims do to each other, well, that can impact Israel too and more than just Israel. I do not see Israel as the only factor that may justify our considerations. It’s a far more complex matter than that as you know. Just my view.
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All of this discussion forgets one essential fact: the Iranian leadership believe that their messiah, whom they call the Mahdi, will return to earth when we are experiencing great chaos. They may very well be willing to promote that chaos for their own ends. If this is so, firing off a nuclear warhead just might be the right trigger. I don’t put it past them in the least since theirs is a world view of death and not life. Their god cares not for them unless they die for the cause, and maybe not even then. But the true and living God cares for His people all the time. Their god is unreachable, ours is present with us in all circumstances. The contrast is telling: as their god, so is the people. The most important thing we can do is to exercise our privilege of prayer to pull down the strongholds of the enemy. Get answers to prayer first by confessing our (individual) sins, then throwing ourselves into the arms of our heavenly Father. Only He can do anything with lasting value.
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Joel, you have failed to state on what basis any nation has a right to nuclear weapons. The fact is every human has the same rights as others, likewise every government has the same claim to weapons as well. Whether that claim is awful or justified, they each have the same claim to nuclear and other arms. This is not about morality, it is about logic. On what basis does one nation have the right to a certain weapons technology but another does not? The only possible claim to satisfy that conclusion is that not all humanity was born equal.
Thank you for admitting that we did help overthrow the Iranian government, something that would have been hard to accomplish without our help. We had little reason to fear Russia’s influence in the area, just look at how hard Afghanistan fought them when they tried.
In your statement about the US military, why does our nation’s military need to protect and police the whole world? Since you mention the last three decades, that includes the fiasco in Lebanon, where we had troops where they should not have been. That also includes the US training the facist El Salvadorean government out of fear that the rebels they were fighting might possibly be potential allies with Russia. Tens of thousands of civilians were exterminated by their own government which we backed. And then you have the issue of the US selling arms to both Iran and Iraq to extend and prolong the war between the two nations, including supplying and instructing Saddam in the use of chemical weapons, to be used on Iranians and Kurds, who again many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ.
Phos, Genesis also predicted animosity between Ishmael and Israel, as well as Ishmael and the rest of the world.
Steve, thanks for what you have said, I recommend reading Ezekiel 38. Either Islam or the current nations under the yoke of Islam will try to end God’s people, but when that happens, and none stand by Israel, He will step in and fight for His people. This event prophesied in Ezekiel I believe will probably happen within my lifetime.
But this chapter does show that it is not the job of the US to save the world, because the only one who can is God and His Salvation He offers us all. Muslims are now coming to know Christ in record numbers since the beginning of Islam. the most powerful tool we have in the Middle East and in South America, where Biblical Christianity is growing exponentially, is the gospel, not the US military, the CIA, nor a foreign policy that creates more chaos than it prevents. The only way to win this ideological war is through preaching the Truth, whom is Christ. It is not the US government’s job to play God; every time it has tried to do so, the American people have suffered.
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ROM116 – <i."Joel, you have failed to state on what basis any nation has a right to nuclear weapons."
Huh? The right to legitimate self-defence and national protection in a modern age which makes it necessary. Evil exists, ROM116, and it must be stopped with strength (it won’t listen to decency or reason or it wouldn’t be evil). And the NT authorizes nations to “weild the sward” to oppose evil. Though the process gets muddy, the biblical authorization remains. I believe in “peace through strength” not because I like it but because it cannot be honestly denied in this fallen world. I thought this was obvious. But that right is forfeited by nations that prove themselves too threatening and too evil to handle weapons of strength. That’s when other nations must consider ‘weilding the sward’ (as a last resort) agaisnt evil. But it still boils down to moral will and judgment calls.
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ROM116 – <i."The fact is every human has the same rights as others, likewise every government has the same claim to weapons as well."
Sorry, but that’s as unfactual as it gets, ROM116. This is extremely dangerous and shallow moral thinking, if you don’t mind me being frank. Leave the world of idealistic and utopian theories about equality of rights devoid of real life circumstances and and come back to earth. Hitler forfeited his nation’s equal rights to power & weaponry and it was tough and costly to implement that loss of Germany’s equal right in reality. But we had to.
For decent people and for decency itself to survive in this world, we must learn how to think more in terms of “responsibility” than “rights.” And in reasonable and feasible ways, we must sometimes hold people and nations responsible. Secularist leftist today tend to think in terms of “rights” whereas a biblical worldview thinks more in terms of “responsibilities” and moral authority.
ROM116 wrote; “This is not about morality, it is about logic.”
I dnot understand how you could begin to think this, brother! It makes no sense from a biblical worldview standpoint. This is indeed about morality, immorality and logic as well (all of the above are at play).
ROM116 asked, “On what basis does one nation have the right to a certain weapons technology but another does not?”
On the basis of morality, my friend. It’s a sticky point for academics but unavoidable for responsible people in leadership roles that call for authentic protection of the people from the real forces of undeniable evil (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam, others). Some nations have clearly shown themselves to be undeniably evil, dangerous and grossly threatening. We cannot roll over and pretend otherwise (not that you are suggesting this–I am just speaking for myself). I was a sincere pacifist in my 20s but life and further study sincerely led me out of that.
Both we AND the British helped overthrow the pro-soviet and dangerous Iranian government over a century ago. And internal Iranian forces were crucial. So what? That has little to do with the danger that Iran is today, well over a half a century later. Regardless of if you think that act by our forefathers was for the best or the worst, too much water has gone under the bridge for that largely irrelevant historical debate to unduly influence us now. The problem is to current and serious for that. Their radical shiite theology makes them crave war and they believe it will bring about the return of the 12th Imam.
Thank you for reading my posts above and this post too, ROM116. I need to go to bed. Be good, bro.
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If it is about your morality, Joel Mark, than the US has no right to any arms whatsoever, for the decades of genocide we caused in Guatemala, for the genocide against our brothers in Christ in Kurdistan, and for the facist government we backed in El Salvador. At least be consistent.
The fact is the US government has nukes on the same basis Iran is trying to build them. Both governments want to “wield the sword.” I am not arguing that it is right for any government to have theses weapons, I am just pointing out that both governments are making the same claim to the right to bear nuclear arms.
The thing is, the Iranians will not let their government use those nukes, because they full well know that if their government does so, they will be nuked into oblivion by the US and by Israel. That is the responsibility both nations’ governments have, to protect their people from outside attackers. It is not our responsibility to play God in the Middle East. There is evil in this world, but most evil is done by those who believe they are doing what they do for the good of humanity.
And I would finally disagree with your statement that some nations are evil, for all of them are. The only kingdom that is not evil is the Kingdom of Heaven, and until Jesus comes and establishes His Kingdom here on earth I will trust the governments of this earth about as far as I can throw them.
Also as a historical note, realize that the Allies in WWI made Germany ripe for facism and for the Nazis by taking away their right to self-defense and by punishing them economically. If that had not happened, Hitler would not have been able to rise to power. Hitler did not forfeit his nation’s rights, those rights were already stripped away, and Germany looked to the man, a trial run anti-Christ, who promised to restore them and Germany’s power in Europe.
I pray that we do not make the same mistake yet again, this time in the Middle East.
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ROM116 wrote; “If it is about your morality, Joel Mark, than the US has no right to any arms whatsoever…”
Good grief, ROM116, don’t distort my comments so sickeningly. I disdain the use of the pronoun in you phrase “your moralit.’ That has nothing to do with what I said and it proves you are NOT listening.
And your “decades of genocide” comment is just more distortion and and America-hating hysteria.
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Pat Buchanan talks sense re. the US, Israel and Iran’s “nuclear program”:
(Buchanan also points out how the Iran has nukes! charge is an outright lie, propagated by Israel and the “Israel first” lobby in the United States.)
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Frank (6): But the State must have enemies to fight.
Joel Mark (10): I disrespect this comment by FRANK. It is grossly irresponsible and morally blind.
Frank: You utterly dodged the first point of that post:
How “grossly irresponsible and morally blind” do you consider the WMB/Cal Thomas headline Surprise! Iran has nukes (has as in “right now,” and nukes as in plural), when the article actually reports that Iran is close to developing a nuclear weapon (i.e., they don’t even have one yet)?
Or do you not consider such disparity between headline and article to even be “grossly irresponsible and morally blind,” perhaps because the fight against “evil” actually permits pundits and Christian websites to lie in order to increase the public outcry for US military intervention?
“Disrespect” or not, I look forward to your reply.
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These insistent and far-fetched claims that IRAN HAS NUKES are reminiscent of the insistent and far-fetched (to say nothing of false) claims that IRAQ HAD WMD that were used to push us into BushCo’s ill-conceived, aggressive and illegal invasion of Iraq.
Gee whiz, folks. This is the same kind of talk they used to “Bravo Sierra” us into the invasion, regime change and 9-year occupation of Iraq, at a cost of thousands of American lives and injuries, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi casualties. And let’s not even try counting up the cost in US treasure.
Nine years in Iraq, and what do we have to show for it? What does Iraq have to show for it?
Iran is vastly larger and more populated than Iraq.
Do the math.
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