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Should Christians attend public schools?
That’s the question tackled by documentary producer Colin Gunn in his new film, IndoctriNation: Public Schools and the Decline of Christianity in America (see the trailer below).
The debate is spelled out right at the beginning of the film by two heavyweights in the world of evangelical Christianity. Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, makes his position clear: “I am convinced that the time has come for Christians to develop an exit strategy from the public schools.” Franklin Graham, son of evangelist Billy Graham and president of Samaritan’s Purse, is equally clear: “I want to see a child in every public school in America who is trained as a witness for Jesus Christ.”
So should Christians stay and fight from within, or abandon a system they perceive as broken?
Author R.C. Sproul Jr. addresses the argument many make that Christians need to be salt and light in the public schools: “If we send out evangelists and they become nonbelievers, we’re not following a biblical strategy.” And that, I think, is the crux of the matter for all parents struggling with this issue.
Most of us probably know children from Christian households who’ve come through the public school system with their faith and morality intact. It happens. It’s not impossible. But it’s difficult, and in my experience, rare.
I’m a product of public schools, and I never felt that my faith was challenged in the classroom. Nor did I feel peer pressure not to attend church; plenty of my classmates went, too. But one generation later, things are vastly different. Erwin Lutzer, pastor of Moody Church, Chicago, also interviewed for IndoctriNation, points out the moral relativism schools actively promote, teaching children that there’s no such thing as right or wrong. One Christian teacher interviewed describes the culture of public schools as “overwhelmingly anti-Christian.” Maybe in my day, they were at the very least neutral, tolerant in the true sense of the word.
Can children be expected to spend 13 years of their lives in an environment hostile to their faith and not be at risk of losing it? Parents know their children best and only they can decide. As for me, I’m already encouraging my teenage children to keep my future grandchildren far away from the public school system.
back to top148 Comments to “Should Christians attend public schools?”
Many Christians I know see our public skools as a true mission field. Not sure if schooling should be a place to stroke or validate your own beliefs or a place to have them challenged and require you to construct a defense of them.
Public schools in some parts of the USA? Absolutely scary!
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It depends on the child, on the the parents and on the school. My son too social for homeschooling, too easily influenced by peers for public school. We only have one so we can afford a private Christian school. Plus the local school is not very good. If we were poorer, had more kids or lived near a better public school I might have gone a different way.
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Yes, “it depends on the school.” My older kids are/were/will be next year in a public high school where, sure, there are negative pressures. But there are also many positive ones — many Christian teachers, and many others who teach independent thinking and tolerance — REAL independent thinking and REAL tolerance, not the “it’s independent if your parents hate it and tolerant if it makes no judgments whatsoever” that sometimes passes for independence and tolerance.
But I’m aware that it’s a somewhat exceptional situation. I’d no more endorse just any public school than I’d endorse just any church — or even any Christian school. There are a couple around here I’d never want to spend money on, even if I had it. There are no safe rules to go by — it all requires wisdom.
And really, I probably wouldn’t be comfortable with them in this school if I hadn’t homeschooled them all until 8th grade (with one exception of one of them in a small Christian school for K-2). By that time, their character and worldviews were sufficiently formed that what they hear in school is just another option that they can think critically about, not a blind indoctrination.
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Public schools in almost all of the USA? Almost always adequate, some good and a precious few excellent.
As for “moral relativism”, that is itself a relative term. Is teaching that there are other interpretations of what is right or wrong and other cultures with wildly different paradigms a bad thing?
I guess almost by definition fundamentalist Christians regard their faith’s teachings as the absolute arbiter of right and wrong and anybody who deviates or questions any part of their opinion is then, perforce, a “moral relativist”.
And I really seriously doubt the characterization above of public schools as anti-Christian. To my knowledge anyone in authority who expresses antipathy to any religion, not to mention the most popular one in the country gets reported and slapped down pretty hard.
Saying that some people believe “A” and others believe “B” is not a statement against either party or either belief.
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It is always hard to follow KBells as she is ever wise
Our seven kids have experienced all–public, private and home-school–and our kids have thrived in various environments based on their widely different giftings.
We have one daughter who was too social for public school, but excelled in home schooling. Oldest son needed good strong men in his life and we found those in terrific public school teachers and coaches (most Christian).
I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all answer to this question. And I have found locally that those who scream the loudest that their way is the only have the wackiest children.
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BTW, I think that any parents who feel capable of homeschooling for 13 years and are committed to doing it really well, probably can’t lose. But I honestly believe that while those people are not precisely rare birds, they’re the minority. Homeschooling for 13 years in less than ideal circumstances might be better than any of the alternatives in some situations, but very often, it’s not without its drawbacks. In my case, I don’t see how I could have done justice to the exceptional talent of my oldest in high school while still having four others in the house, and then also doing justice to their elementary and middle school educations, even though my husband and I are pretty well-educated in a well-rounded way (between us.) For one thing, she’s majoring in Spanish in college, which would probably have been entirely off the table had we homeschooled her all the way.
But anyway, my point is, that there are certainly those who can do the high school thing, and do it well, and in that case, the kids probably can’t do better in any other setting. So I’m definitely not against that. But I definitely think homeschooling is a good option for a wider range of families in the lower grades, if circumstances permit.
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“Public schools in almost all of the USA? Almost always adequate, some good and a precious few excellent.”
Haven’t found that to be true. Public schools vary as widely as children’s personalities.
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The public high school I went to in the 70’s that mostly supported my conservative background, (but also showed me drug overdoses and vioence) is a gang playground now where kids literally run to their mother’s waiting car from the building so they don’t get beat up. If I was still in that community and had school age children, I’m afraid I would do the same thing my sister is doing now. She is sending her kids to private Christian school, funded by our parents because despite two incomes, she and her husband can’t afford to do it on their own. You would hope your kids could be missionaries to public schools, but it breaks your heart to think of what they’d have to go through in order to fulfill that role. I’m guessing there is an occasional kid who would want to and could survive in that environment. More power to them.
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Yes. Best place they can be a witness to others their age.
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“Yes. Best place they can be a witness to others their age. ”
See, I don’t get this. I get that kids can be a witness if they’re in school with others their age, but why is this the only place? Aren’t kids supposed to be focused on school work and rule-following when they’re in school anyway, following the agenda of their teachers and not their own?
Adults don’t think that we can only be a witness to people in our own workplaces — we know that opportunities exist elsewhere, and we make them. Why is this not true of kids?
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Take a look at the south. Look at most of the megachurches. You have among your members principals, coaches and classroom teachers. Esp true at our former church when we lived in Leesville Louisiana.
Not one of them uses the classroom lectern as any type of pulpit, but when asked/confronted by a student they normally say “Well, my own personal beliefs about X are based on my understanding of the Bible..” and they often invite the questioning youngster to ask outside of class or even via email.
In most of the south you won’t have pressures to celebrate LGBT week or host a weeklong commemoration of Roe v Wade. The big schools in the Northeast seem to love doing stuff like that even when they have way higher per pupil spending and low standardized test scores.
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But, honestly the work place is probably one of the most effective places. That’s where your honesty and Christlike behavior probably stands out the most. When people are socializing, every one is usually nice. When people are out in the community, people can dismiss you easily. When you are struggling with office relationships or getting a project done, that’s where the rubber meets the road. Some Christian kids can do it in school. Some kids are still learning and can’t be expected to not “go along with the crowd”.
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#10 I really don’t want any child of mine following a teacher’s agenda if it controverts or distorts the Truth of Scripture. The public schools for the most part discourage proselytizing for any creed unless you’re talking about Global Warming or other sanctioned/sacrosanct academic fads.
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I didn’t say it was the only place.
But I honestly don’t know. Depends on the public school.
There isn’t anything inherently wrong with them.
There may be something wrong with how some public schools are run.
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Gummint education is a unionized workforce. Do they put the interests of the children and parents first? Nope not consistently.
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Sawgunner makes the point that state run schools preach the state.
But if your kids by high school are strong enough to stand, I’d say let them attend.
You can’t make disciples of all men if you sit hollowed up in a cave preaching to you and yours only.
If we raise our kids to run and hide, that’s all they’ll do when they grow up.
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Bottom line: the take it or leave it one size fits all governmental approach to education to me makes as much sense as everyone being required to choose only one color auto (Model T Fords were all BLACK!) or the only phone you could have would be a heavy black one with old-style rotary dial. We should encourage a multiple option approach to somethng as important as kids’ schooling.
But again, teechur unions say ixnay no way to that.
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#16 True Thorn. Very true.
We need more not less Christian presence in education (public, private or charter-hybrid) and in media and in entertainment. Those shape the culture. And those are career fields Christians seldom venture into. Or if they do they are soon drinnking the same Kool Aid as everyone else in those industries.
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Home schooling is absolutely and unequivocally mandatory for all Christian families in today’s America, whether they send their kids to a public or private school or not.
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This is a critical question for parents. Our son started in private school, then moved to public in the 7th grade. Every child is different and this is a subject that requires much prayer.
Sawgunner @11 is right that the South still has a different culture. However, many native Southerners are moving from suburbs to small towns to keep their children away from anti-Christian attitudes that are seeping into Southern suburbs.
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Should Christians attend public schools?
Of course, every family should remain free to weigh all the local factors and no sweeping answer (except the one I offered at #19, of course–smile) applies to all of us. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the vast majority of us have grossly and greatly under-estimated the criminality and the ideologically corrupt nature of public schools today. They are physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually dangerous. Too many of them serve as LGBTPBMS (and more) indoctination centers.
AND regardless of how you answer the above question or whether or not you send your kids, you still pay for this through the nose with your hard-earned money by force of law.
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I agree that the time has come for Christians to develop an exit strategy from the public schools.
1. It should be a persuasive strategy that still respects the ongoing freedom of Christian families to make independent decisions.
2. It should be patient and persistent; not be overly judgmental of those who we think do not go far enough.
3. It needs to address financial factors and hardships.
4. It should put up a vigorous fight against gov’t policies that FORCE us to pay for public schools (most of which are indeed fully pagan, anti-Christian and oppresively evil).
5. It should not condemn those who want to fight from the inside, but it can be forthright and powerful in warning aginast the pitfalls of such an option.
6. It should challenge, empower and support parents as a priority.
7. The church whould be involved and provide for more social needs of growing children, including activities with or for non-churched kids. And providing for social needs is not a recipe for neglicting intellectual or spiritual needs.
8. The church must begin to eschew the current trend that celebrates and obsesses on emotions and emotionalism in the name of Christian ministry. The church needs an intellectual revolution.
Please add to my points as you see fit.
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“You can’t make disciples of all men if you sit hollowed up in a cave preaching to you and yours only. ”
But this is what I don’t get.
I know almost no one, among homeschoolers, who does this.
It’s not the idea that kids can be a witness in school that I have a problem with, it’s the idea that kids not in school are “hollowed up in a cave” and lacking opportunities to witness to other kids. Last I checked homeschooled kids have MORE opportunities to interact with the rest of the world because they have shorter hours of regimented activity, and little, if any, homework.
Why is this contrast being drawn?
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I am deeply grateful for those who are raising serious and reasonable warnings about the increasing harm that public schools are doing to our children AND to most of the children in our culture.
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Whatever exit strategy we use, we should not forget or ignore that children that would still be subject to aggresive pagan anti-Christian (often homosexualist) indoctrination after many Christians are gone from the system.
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“But, honestly the work place is probably one of the most effective places. That’s where your honesty and Christlike behavior probably stands out the most. When people are socializing, every one is usually nice. When people are out in the community, people can dismiss you easily. When you are struggling with office relationships or getting a project done, that’s where the rubber meets the road. Some Christian kids can do it in school. Some kids are still learning and can’t be expected to not “go along with the crowd”. ”
Sure. But no one acts as if your own workplace is the only place that you are likely to interact with other people, or claims that self-employed people are by definition hiding from the world and missing opportunities. School, or work, is just one arena among countless where we interact with other human beings in a variety of ways. So I just don’t like this “if your kids aren’t in school, they’re in a cave and are severely limited in their witness” idea. If people are holing up and not interacting with other people, it’s not because of where they work or how their kids are educated, but because of how they choose to use ALL their time.
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One interesting thing about public schools (at least where I live) is that the variance in quality (at least if you go by test scores) decreases as you move up from elementary to junior high to high school. Part of this is undoubtedly due to the fact that higher level schools have a larger geographic scope and thereby are more socioeconomically diverse (with lower-income students being more likely to perform poorly on standardized tests).
In other words, you’re more likely to find an elementary school whose entire geographic area is “really rich” or “really poor” than you are to find a high school where the same is true, if only because elementary schools have smaller geographic areas.
What this means is that the “best” public elementary schools really are pretty phenomenal and might as well be expensive private schools, whereas the “best” public high schools aren’t nearly as impressive (from a relative standpoint). I also get the sense that wealthy families whose home public elementary is really good will send their kids there for elementary school, then yank them from the public system and send them to private school for high school. This further contributes to the decrease in test scores as you move up in the public system from elementary to high school.
To get a sense of what I’m talking about, the elementary school in my area with the highest scores has something like 95% of its students get a score of “exceeds standards” on my state’s main standardized test. The high school with the highest scores has something like 30-40% reach that level.
One other thought about why Christians should or shouldn’t take their kids out of public school: to my mind, from a “character development” point of view the biggest issue isn’t that your kid will be indoctrinated by school officials; it’s the mere fact that he’ll spend 8 hours a day surrounded by a random selection of other peoples’ kids, many of whom will not be a good influence. So if you’re a Christian considering avoiding the public schools because you fear for your child’s character development, you really need to go a step further and limit all extended contact with non-believers.
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I don’t think myself qualified to make judgments about public schools, since I am not in them and don’t have children in them.
But I think it a mistake to expect that children be witnesses in their public schools. First and foremost, they are still children. They are still being formed. They are, by God’s creative design, still in “receive” mode — learning what it means to be a good human being. And that character formation is so much more than intellectual assent to the right set of ideas. The sort of belligerent hostility that can be unintentionally imparted to Christian children in trying to protect them against secular ideas is a poison in its own right.
I heard a great line in a talk recently: “you have to be somebody before you can share yourself.” I think the same applies to Christians seeking to be a witness. The desire to put kids in public schools as little evangelists seems to me like pushing an egg off the counter because you expect that birds should fly.
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What JJF said.
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The option of taking our kids out of public schools should be strongly considered but the effort to take our money out of them is also crucial. This is a two front war: protect your children first and then also take better charge of the hard-earned resources God has given you and channel them away from public schools to private schools or church or home-schooling efforts.
The two fronts are domiestic (a spiritual and family focused front) and political (an institutional and financially focused front) in nature. Both fronts must be fought wisely.
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To those adults who would like to see schools evangelized – go and do it. Do not send children to places where angels fear to tread.
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I worked in the public schools. Children DO NOT WITNESS. They can’t. In fact, if anything, it usually works the OTHER way. Kids who are Christian are being “witnessed” to all the time in the other direction.
Witnessing is difficult to do. I’m all for good Christian adults working and teaching in the public schools to be “salt and light.” But, even they can’t witness.
And, if you really think that Christian kids are being “salt and light” in the schools (minus a few of them in high school, IF they’ve had a strong apologetics program), then you simply haven’t been in a real public school.
That is complete idealistic nonsense, I’m sorry to say (because I do like Franklin Graham.)
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#28
Hadn’t read it yet, but JJF is right. Absolutely.
The only kids who *might* be qualified would be high school or older kids who’d been specifically taught apologetics. And, honestly, I think that even those would be few and far between.
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While attending public school doesn’t guarantee that you will graduate with your faith intact, neither does private Christian school. Either way, you have to be engaged with your children when they come home.
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This article is heartbreaking at the least. Why are we as Christian leaders arguing about the troubles of an institution that was left to the ravages of the lost because of our own arrogance in thinking that we can do life “more perfect” in our own churches? Maybe most of the people in this discussion have forgotten that we as Christians are called to be IN the world and not OF it. We are NOT supposed to be good examples of the “bruised and bleeding” Pharisees who acted so perfect that they would not even look at sin. What if Jesus had this mindset? That He should not look at sin. Where would we be? I haven’t researched it yet, but I would guess that most of the people arguing the point that we should get out of public schools are the same people wondering why 94% of churches in America are in decline. Could it be that they have removed themselves from the sick and hurting to the point that they have no one else to heal? After 25+ years of ministry, Bible college and private Christian schools, I have found that it is a whole lot easier to follow God’s word, to stay faithful to His calling and gain the support needed IN the world, IN the public schools, IN the colleges and universities that are not invested with this pharisaical mindset.
So as not to fall into the same trap of the people complaining and discussing how to stay away from the world that He has called us to lead to Him, let’s talk solutions.
In a recent survey of our community, people stated that they wanted to know more about God but no one would tell them, or they didn’t know where to go to ask about God where they weren’t condemned. So my husband and I are starting a Bible study for unbelievers who genuinely want to know who God is. We take an active part in the teacher’s and administrator’s lives in our public school to show them that there are solutions to the problems that they face everyday. We disciple young high school and college students and help them tackle the problems of this world according to the Scriptures. But most importantly, we are raising our 4 kids to love the lost as Christ loved them, teaching them how to stand up for their faith in any situation. Not just the ones that the church thinks they should be exposed to. We do this so that they do not have to be exposed to the hypocrisy of the perfect church mindset, but to live with an example of Godly people sharing Christ’s love to everyone regardless of their situation or status, the way that Christ loves us. We do this so that our kids will be an example to others. Just as we have been an example to them. And for anyone who thinks this is just a mom ranting and raving, let the fruits of our ministry speak for themselves. We have seen 1,000s come to Christ and 100s go into the mission fields by following God’s call into the world. You know…where the sick, the dying and the lost are. You know…the ones God has called us to share the Gospel with.
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So if you’re a Christian considering avoiding the public schools because you fear for your child’s character development, you really need to go a step further and limit all extended contact with non-believers.
*****I disagree, Buddy, and I’ll tell you why.
In a public school, the child is surrounded day in and day out with a totally different world view (if they’re a Christian). There is no way for the parent to even begin to understand how pervasive and overwhelming that is. It is like shoving a child into the deep end of a pool before they’ve learned how to swim and then asking them not to get wet.
OTOH, in other environments, such as home school, I am teaching my kids how to swim. So, they can stick their toes in the deep end. And then they can dangle their legs in the deep end, and, by the time I send them off to college (I’ve got one there now), they can SWIM in the deep end.
The idea is not to keep them away from all contact with non-believers, but to teach them how to be salt and light and to be able to interact with unbelievers (as well as all sorts of other people).
This just can’t happen easily in a public school environment. The parents aren’t there. They can’t hear everything said. They don’t know all the facial expressions, voice inflections and tones of what is said. And, honestly, who hasn’t asked their kids about their day and heard the standard, “Nothing.”
You simply can’t counteract what you don’t know about. Nor can you train them about it, ask questions about it, or discuss it.
In other environments, you can. Home schooling is especially good for this.
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I have an elementary-age daughter in a private Christian school and a pre-school age son being homeschooled. I don’t anticipate that they’ll ever go to a public primary or secondary school.
Nevertheless, I’m happy to pay my (painfully high) property taxes to fund the local public schools, because I do not expect that every family has the ability to send its children to good schools, and I’d rather live in a society with educated citizens than one with uneducated citizens.
I know many say that the public schools do not properly educate their charges, and certainly there are grave problems, but a public school system is far better than the alternative, which would be (in most cases) no school at all. So I have no desire to see public schools defunded, and I think such a desire is short-sighted.
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public schools have become the tools of the far left groups to promote their ideas as being normal.
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#38
And, you will cry great tears and wonder what happened when, despite all the good that you have done, one of your kids wanders from the faith.
You obviously have NO IDEA what public schools are like.
WE are called to be salt and light. Undeveloped children? We are called to be educating them about Christ and His ways “talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up” (Deuteronomy 11:19) … not asking them to go out and educate others (something that wouldn’t be allowed anyway in the public school.)
When your kids are spending 6 plus hours a day in the care of the public schools, there is NO WAY that you can follow Deuteronomy 11:19 (or the many other verses referring to teaching children) the way that you should be.
Good job for helping others! But, your children are your primary responsibility.
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I know many say that the public schools do not properly educate their charges, and certainly there are grave problems, but a public school system is far better than the alternative, which would be (in most cases) no school at all. So I have no desire to see public schools defunded, and I think such a desire is short-sighted.
******I agree.
And, again, it is a fine place for ADULT Christians to be “salt and light.”
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#34
Amen!
There are many, many people at my church who drop off their kids and expect that they will become Christians in one or two hours of Sunday School and Youth Group a week.
Yet, the Bible is clear that the PRIMARY responsibility for educating our kids is US — the parents. And, regardless of where we send our kids to school (or not) that responsibility remains ours.
Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. I know kids from EVERY environment who “go bad” or leave the faith.
But, the particular concern I have with public school is not leaving the faith so much (that is obvious), but how many come out “double-minded.”
In other words, they still call themselves “Christian,” but they believe contradictory things (many) in their minds. They have bought almost completely into the secular world view, but have “baptized” it with a veneer of Christianity.
They will hold that the Bible is God’s word, but that much of it isn’t true, especially in the Old Testament, but also they will dump Paul, and anything not specifically said by Jesus (which they don’t always believe either).
They will hold that they’re Christians, but they don’t believe in Jesus as THE way, they don’t follow His commandments (and often even scoff at them), and they will accept all the arguments about sexuality, feminism, abortion, and money that come from the world.
While I know that there is some skepticism about the Barna group, this is what they are finding in all of their surveys. And, it is growing year-to-year.
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You obviously have NO IDEA what public schools are like.
—
??????????????
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And those are career fields Christians seldom venture into. Or if they do they are soon drinnking the same Kool Aid as everyone else in those industries.
******And, I think that is the point, Sawgunner. If ADULTS go into these fields, hoping to influence and change them, and often end up “drinking the same Kool Aid as everyone else…,” then why in Heaven’s name do we think young children are able to go into such places and somehow escape their influences?
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Well, Pastor Roy, if I understood what you didn’t understand, I would address it. But, my post that included that quote wasn’t addressed to you, and all I can say to your ????? is “back at ya’!”
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Oh phoo!
I DO understand. I’m sorry, Pastor Roy.
My #39 was in reply to KODIAK at #35.
So sorry. I wish we could correct posts.
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I also wish we could “like” posts, or reply directly to them and our reply would indent underneath, as can be done on other sites.
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Love this response to the viral bullying video going around. It is pertinent to this thread:
http://winging-it.me/2011/12/08/school-bullying/
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Oftentimes Christian schools are the recipients of kids that have had difficulty in the public school. They aren’t always chock full of devoted Christian children.
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“I heard a great line in a talk recently: “you have to be somebody before you can share yourself.” I think the same applies to Christians seeking to be a witness. The desire to put kids in public schools as little evangelists seems to me like pushing an egg off the counter because you expect that birds should fly. ”
Believe it or not, I also agree with this. When I say that I agree that kids can be a witness in school, I don’t mean that it makes sense to send them there in order to do that. I meant that many Christian children actually do exercise positive influence, and even witness, toward their peers, than you might think. One thing kids have the advantage in is just saying what they think about something, and at times, that runs straight into telling each other the truth about spiritual matters without even thinking about it, if they’re sufficiently encouraged to take those matters seriously in the home and in church.
But deliberately investing a kid, especially before the mid-teen years, with the responsibility of being an evangelist as a tiny minority, in a setting where he’s mostly just supposed to be doing what the teacher tells him to do, nah, that’s not wise, IMO.
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JM: This is a two front war: protect your children first and then also take better charge of the hard-earned resources God has given you and channel them away from public schools to private schools or church or home-schooling efforts.
Hmm, which is it? Hard earned or given by a god? The essence of the Republican-Christian dialectic papered over in one rather deft phrase.
Of course, the beneficiaries of these newly husbanded resources would be churches and church-run schools. How conveeeeenient.
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I never understood the concept of children witnessing in their public schools. You send your children to school for an education not as a propagadna tool. An athiest doesn’t send his child to school to witness rather its for an education. And outside of the urban regions, who is your child witnessing to?? In all liklihood, the class will be overwhelming Christian of different denominations.
If you choose to homeschool, it shouln’t be to protect the child but rather because you think you can do a better job.
I have Christian, Muslim and other faiths in my classroom — none witness but they do discuss each other’s faith — mostly in terms of tolerance and respect. I know when it Eid but I also know when its Christmas. Is it witnessing when I need to delay a test for Eid or when a child ask to delay a deadline because of Wednesday night bible study? Not really and to expect anymore from a child is too much. (BTW I do allow bible study/Eid as an excuse)
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Tammy (46): I understand exactly what you mean about replying to posts directly by indenting a comment beneath it, in fact this was a complaint I voiced months ago about the processor. As it is, if I have something to say about post number 12, let us say, but the current thread is at 88, nobody’s going to make the connection except possibly the original writer. This sequential-only stuff makes real dialog nearly impossible unless one is sitting at the computer all the time. In my case, I rarely have an opportunity to read or contribute anything before mid- to late afternoon when there’s this pointless race to see who gets to 100. Have we nothing more interesting to contribute?
– Ken Bland
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I also don’t understand those who think skepticism takes root in a child because of the school. In terms of social development, beliefs, culture etc., parents are the biggest influence on children until their teen years when it becomes their peer group. In an incidental fashion then schools help choose peer groups. Secondly, skepticism is part of some people’s biological and chemical make-up. That is, some people are more skeptical than others on the basis of their brain structure and it will make little difference what school they attend. Thus, for the limited influence a school has in terms of peer group choice parents could and should view their choice of housing in terms of what is the local school.
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The notion that your local public school is a pagan insitution trying to brainwash poor Christian children is ludricous. For the most part, schools are staffed by Christains. Most non-Christian and/or socail liberals are afraid to cause a fuss and will delibrately skirt or skim past anything they consider controversial. And until high school, the science curriculum is delibrately vague about geology, astronomy, etc
I’m also continually amazed by those who tell me that Christmas is somehow banned in their schools — we sing Christmas carols (and yes the religious ones), have Christmas decor, etc. Some teachers even have trees. Most non-Christian parents don’t mind at all; in fact Muslim parents want religoin in public schools — they often send their children to Catholic schools (which are publicly supported in Ontario). There’s nothing more multi-cultural than Muslim children singing Silent Night.
Yes you do have the odd public school who for one reason or an other stifle some facet of celebration, but most stories are the urban legend typ ewhich quotes my sister-in-laws cousins neighbour or some such thing. BTW as Christians do you really want public schools to celebrate Easter with the easter bunny? or Sanat Claus at Christmas?
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Allen Wrench (52): This sequential-only stuff makes real dialog nearly impossible unless one is sitting at the computer all the time.
Frank: Sprechen zie html?
That way, you can bold reference a previous post number (3), copy-and-paste the pertinent quote, then continue the conversation.
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And as for the quality of public schools in America — they are in the middle of the pack internationally. However, when you eliminate areas of extreme poverty, Americans score higher than any other country. Due to the local control of school boards, goegraphy plays an important role in the success of an American public school. Again choose your home carefully, check the school district and the school itself before signing a lease or purchasing a home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
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As to the Q. at hand, “Should Christians attend public schools?”
I don’t think so, for two reasons:
1. Education is an inherently religious undertaking. Since Caesar’s schools have effectively banned the true and living God (because Caesar will brook no challengers to his ultimate authority), why would Christian parents subject their children’s malleable little souls to that kind of false-religious environment?
2. Public education is inherently redistributionist in nature. The money used to run the government education system is coercivley extracted from your fellow citizens. Voluntary participation and support would be one thing. Mandatory support — and participation — are something entirely else.
That said, I refrain from judging fellow believers who place their kids in the government school system: a. Various families face various circumstances. b. It is up to the Holy Spirit to convict and convince parents. And c. Despite all it’s flaws, I don’t think public schooling is a guaranteed, one-way ticket to hell for Christian children. God is gracious, and can draw straight lines with crooked sticks.
I mean, most of us attended government schools, right?
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I was the product of strict Christing education from Kindergarten through 11th grade. I was no better or worse witness for God than anyone else. I was ostracized at school because of my mother’s alcoholism. Not one good Christian teacher ever told me they understood that things were bad at home and they were there if I needed them. Some were downright mean. When I did get involved in Rainbow Girls and started finding some love and acceptance I was told by my school and the pastor that they could not recognize any of my accomplishments because the Masonic order was evil. I went back on the campus as an adult and felt nothing but the oppression.
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Did everyone I went to school with have the same experience? No. My point is that Christian, private, or public schools are no better or worse–the people make it what it is. Parental involvement makes it what it is. In my town everyone goes to the same schools. If there isn’t enough money for art, music, foreign language, etc the parents raise the money and provide it.
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@HRW: I’m also continually amazed by those who tell me that Christmas is somehow banned in their schools — we sing Christmas carols (and yes the religious ones), have Christmas decor, etc.
This may be because you live in a commonwealth country. In the UK especially they seem to accept Christmas a sort of shared cultural heritage, which makes it fine to have explicitly religious Christmas shows in publicly funded schools. I haven’t lived in Canada, but I’m guessing the situation may be similar there. In the U.S…not so much. You might get a Christmas tree and Santa, i.e. hallmarks of the secular version of Christmas celebrated by the majority of the country, but nothing explicitly Christian. I’m mostly okay with that; not everybody is a Christian.
@Frank: Public education is inherently redistributionist in nature.
Why is this a problem outside of situations where the funds are federal? Do you apply the same logic to every responsibility delegated (by the people) to the state that is funded by tax revenue but not directly utilized by every taxpayer? Roads, for instance. Fire and police protection.
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#54
I haven’t seen this in public schools. Perhaps the difference is between Canada and the U.S.
Here, everyone is so afraid of offending someone (usually except Christians), that they tiptoe around even mentioning that it is the Christmas season (even though about 95% of their students are actually celebrating something called Christmas.)
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My point is that Christian, private, or public schools are no better or worse–the people make it what it is.
******I’m going to disagree with you, Kim. But, having your background, I would likely believe the same thing.
There are some really crummy private schools, and it sounds like you found a particularly nasty one.
Hugs.
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I found an American public school which isn’t pagan.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/12/08/42054.htm
Perhaps its a commonwealth thing but I have had Cdns tell me the same thing yet I live in the most left wing city in Canada and I haven’t seen it
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In addition to often being anti-Christian, many (perhaps the majority) public schools not only are increasingly failing to transmit our heritage as Americans in any authentic way, they ACTUALLY are actively disparaging our heritage and distorting it intentionally to smear it out of legitimate existence and thus “fundamentally change America” (which is the expressly stated Obama admin. agenda).
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Not letting your children attend public schools is fine and almost essential in most of today’s America but this alone does nothing unless the parents, the church and a positive and constur4ctive community implement an active positive plan for passing on our precious heritage of faith, freedom and family to our children. What we do for our children is at least as important than what we protect them from (which is also quite important).
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I have also done private, public and homeschooling for my children. I found there is good and bad in all of them. My own children do no homeschooling, although they have discussed the idea. Two do private right now and one does public. I agree that this is a decision each family should make and it does depend on the nature of the child, the opportunity for input and the atmosphere of the school.
I have seen disastrous Christian schools and found public schools can vary greatly. One caved in on Christmas Carols the first time someone complained and threatened a law suit. Another had very, very many concerts, both at Christmas time and other times with Christian music. Many of the great composers were Christian and the teachers stuck to their guns to include it. They also knew the parents would stand by them.
I have had to pull my children out of classes. I have had to unteach certain things. I was once threatened by a principal. Most of the teachers were supportive of my concerns. One of my children had an atheist for a teacher in an advance class and that was just fine with us. We had great discussions and she learned to defend her views.
Nominal Christians often do great damage by defending progams or classes in the public school, because they do not think biblically or do not see where seemingly innocent teachings are leading.
Homeschooling also has it’s weak points and the possiblity of some real problems, although I won’t go into that.
No matter how we school our own children, we will all live with the results of the public schools, so we should all be concerned about them.
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I’d like to comment on another point no one has made–the role parents play in public schools.
I’ve volunteered in public schools since 1985 in four different states and thirteen different schools. I’ve led school-sponsored scout troops, attended a myriad of field trips, tutored reading, math, spelling and writing in the classroom as an assistant to the teacher, written newsletters, scored tests, read aloud, shelved books, written lesson plans, and on and on.
I rarely did any of that with my own child, but worked with slower kids, or provided relief to harried teachers so they could work with slower kids. I got to know these children and sometimes their families. I befriend librarians and teachers and in more than one classroom was the only volunteer the teacher had.
This is a mission field in the sense that we can provide a valuable service to a lot of children by just reading a picture book one day a week. Instead of throwing rocks at the schools, we can come alongside them and help.
Our own pastor’s wife teaches first grade in a public school which is 80% percent minority. The only volunteers she has are two middle-aged women from our church. They do all the above tasks–and make a positive difference in those first graders’ lives.
What is our role in the world? To preach the gospel, and sometimes even use words. Just showing up–wear a cross around your neck if that makes you feel better–helps.
Get to know the kids, both your child’s friends and others. I escorted the high school band to Canada some years ago and spent three intense days with seven kids–my child was not in my group.
I formed good relationships with those kids and when I saw the gay one recently at Costco, I ran up and we threw our arms around each other. He’s a young journalist now, and we talked about that exciting field. He knows exactly where I stand in my spiritual walk, but more than that, he knows I love him.
That’s what you get in a public school.
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In addition, I was the only parent in five years to actually visit the junior high and read the sex ed curriculum. The teacher was pretty nervous when she saw the cross around my neck. But after I sat in the office and read through it, I had only positive things to say–other than commenting the information was a little outdated.
She was surprised, but then relaxed and we had a good conversation. She was particularly interested in the fact I knew so much because I’m a volunteer at the local PCC. Did that mean she was more receptive to the in-class assistance the PCC can provide? You bet.
In addition, when the new-age librarian’s mother died, I said, “In my community (she knew very well which community I was talking about), we provide a meal when a family member dies. Can I bring you a casserole?”
I was the only person she knew who asked.
She preferred my chocolate chip cookies.
I don’t mean to sound cynical, but these are people who want to do a good job. I’m the daughter and sister of public education teachers, but I know how hard my mom worked and the things my brother puts up with in Watts where he teaches. They don’t need criticism. They need encouragement.
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I’ve seen this documentary. It is WELL worth seeing. Public school teachers, principals and even students are interviewed as well as Christians leaders. It answers questions about what public school system is currently like, if there is a difference between an “average” school and a “good” school, if Christian witness is even possible in the schools today (referring to the idea that Christian teachers/students can be light and salt to their students/classmates), and much more. I bet you’ll be surprised by what you see.
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Thank you Michelle.
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Once you conclude as Mrs. Segelstein did that she would encourage her children not to send their children to US public schools, the next question is: Would you encourage your children to stay in the US?
Six places where it might be better to practice your faith and raise a family: Chile, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, and my new favorite, Hong Kong.
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HRW and Buddyglass, my kids’ American public high school sings overtly religious songs in their Christmas concerts and decorates in traditionally Christmas-oriented ways. It’s an annual tradition to end each year’s Holiday Choral Concert with a rendition of the Hallelujah Chorus in which all the massed choirs of the school participate and invite alumni AND FACULTY to join them on stage to sing along. (The concerts generally also include many “secular” Christmas songs, as well as Hanukkah songs, but invariably include multiple songs with overt references to the nativity of Christ and associated Christian doctrines.) I think the Christian choral music teacher has a bit to do with it.
I’m not claiming it’s not unusual, but there it is. Such things are not unheard of in American public schools. However, I completely understand that we’re definitely the exception.
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Well said, Michelle.
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Children don’t have a strong enough faith to stand up to non-Christian children and especially non-Christian teachers.
The same thing goes for sending your child to Sunday School.
Do you know what the S.S. teacher is teaching your child?
Have you read the S.S. curriculum?
Many children who go to Sunday School go to Public School.
Your children might go to their house & watch what their parents say is ok.
Non-Christian parents enroll their children in Christian schools because of the trouble they got in at public school. Will a non-Christian parent lie about being a Christian to get their child in a Christian school? You bet.
Be that as it may, there are a lot of single parents who have no alternative but to send their child to public school. I think a charter school that just teaches the basics might give a child a better beginning. A voucher system would also help the parent choose an alternative to their neighborhood school no matter where they live.
And still a homeschooled child may not choose the Christian path in the end. But, I would rather give a child a better beginning, if at all possible.
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Michelle,
Again, you’re an adult. It is a fine mission field.
It is not generally the best placement for a child. Of course, some people do not have any choice, so it is good for Christian adults to be there helping out.
My father was a teacher, my sister is a teacher, my mother was a teacher’s aide for over 25 years…all in public school. I personally taught in public school for 6 years (and then another 8 years in private schools: Orthodox Jewish and Classical Christian).
I do know what I’m speaking of. You simply cannot know what is being taught all day long, and many, many children come out double-minded (if they still claim Christianity at all.)
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If you are a parent and you haven’t yet watched John Stossel’s “Stupid in America” then you ought to.
The article:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
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I have not ruled out my kids EVER setting foot in a public school (although it is unlikely), but I do think parents need to realize the battlefield it is, even in GOOD schools, with Christian teachers. If you don’t understand this, you really just don’t “get it.”
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My mother decided to homeschool because she thought she could teach us more thoroughly at home, and she did. I am glad I did not face the pressures of public school. As a loner, it was hard enough for me to deal with the other children at Sunday School and their cliques and petty quarrels.
That being said, I have friends who were homeschooled who would have done much better in public school, and friends who went to public school who turned out just fine, and friends who went to private Christian school who crashed and burned.
It all hinged on the parents. When they loved and trusted their children, and lived out their Christianity sincerely, the children were fine. When they made all kinds of really strict rules about music and movies and books and clothes, the children became bitter and hypocritical. When they ignored the chilren, the children got out of control. When they constantly assumed that the kid was going to mess up, the kid messed up. I’ve seen proof that Proverbs 22:6, “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it”, works both positively and negatively.
It is extremely important that every child should learn to read, write, do arithmetic, and, most importantly, love to learn. Teachers can help with the academics, but it is up to the parents to help the child make the best use of the oppotunity to gain knowledge.
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The public schools are definitely a mission field. But sending children as missionaries may not be wise. I teach high school, and it is a very difficult environment. I would not send my children to the school where I teach. The behaviours I deal with every day, the language and conversations I overhear are not things I would want a naive teenager exposed to in that way.
Michelle’s #67 and 68 are excellent ideas of how we, as adults, can reach out to those in public schools. Please hold the ropes for those of us who are in them. We need your help and support.
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Well another reason Im so happy I live in Texas. Sure we have our crazy liberals but the majority of teachers here that we have dealt with are Christian or dont say either way. There have been unfair decisions made against our faith in certain districts but the state itself actually added God in the Texas flag pledge which along with the American pledge and a moment of silence (for prayer or not) is required everyday. We have our issues absolutely but after hearing about some of the country we arent to the point of leaving yet. Besides what can we do when Christian schools charge WAY too much money to attend and homeschooling is not feasible income wise (and we cut back spending like crazy) we have no credit card debt and lost our house. Yet I still have to work to have insurance for the family and my husband makes the bulk of the money. We need to network Christian schools and stop charging college tuition to get in. Until then God please watch over us and help us glorify You even in public schools
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The comments above in regards to Christianity in public schools should make people realize its just not their school that is “Christian friendly” but the majority of schools.
As Michelle points out, informed and active parents still have a great influence on elementary schools. The louder and more active parents usually get the change they want and the silent majority go along for the ride.
Public schools esp in North America are a reflection of the local community and thus those involved will make a difference. To abandon the public school is to give up the civic sphere. And outside urban areas the civic sphere can be and will be Christian if the parents are in involved. Its your tax money at work, its your school system and its up to you as members of the community to make it work appropriately as to your concerns.
Dutch Reformed immigrants in Canada established Christian schools in the 50s and 60s at a time when most public schools esp in rural areas where the Dutch settled were definitely Christian in character. The question which always struck me as I taught in small town Ontario — with the influence of these active parents would these public schools be different? I realize that within the Dutch cultural context their actions make sense but within the Canadian context they marginalized their influence.
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“The behaviours I deal with every day, the language and conversations I overhear are not things I would want a naive teenager exposed to in that way.”
I did not find that the teens in the Christian school were that naive. I think the teachers may have been, though.
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I know many Christians who are Government school teachers. I would say that not many have a Christian world view of the material they teach. And, besides, they all are bound to teach the Government standards. The public really has little say, despite the efforts, all laudable, described above. The Government educates, licenses, funds, standardizes the whole process. The question at hand, with opinions all around, is whether the Government system is supportive or detrimental to nurturing Christian character in our young people.
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As a retired public school administrator, Christian, and Church Elder, I feel I must say a word or two. First, the public school is a perfect place for our young people to be the “salt and light” we are called to be in the scriptures. Secondly, many churches are failing to encourage young people in their faith and making spiritual weaklings of them. The homes of many of these same children are failing to encourage and train the children in their faith. And who gets the blame for all the failures? You are right, the public schools. I trained my own children in their faith. They did not struggle in the public schools or the public universities they attended. One is a Christian doctor married to an associate pastor. The other is an engineer living out his faith in his work and personal life. Quit blaming the public schools for the failures of the church and the home. Teaching children to read, write, and do mathematics has become difficult enough with so many children coming from broken homes and parents not willing to help their children learn or lacking sprirtual and personal discipline because they have been given so much and have little expectations from the home. If there is a void being filled by the public schools it is because the churches and homes have become so weak. Preach and teach the Word and quit blame shifting. The church and home are failing in their missions and it is not because of the public schools.
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I’ve taught in the Government school system as a High School science teacher. I concur that weak and broken families and churches are a problem. Kids from homes in turmoil make the task of education very difficult. I know. You mention a void needing to be filled by the Government schools. Could it be encroachment? I see three legitimate institutions created by God for the good ordering of society: government, church, family. Each has their own sphere of responsibility. Take education, the topic at hand. This belongs in the sphere of the family. However, since the spheres overlap in creative and dynamic ways (they are interdependent not independent) the family can use the resources of the church and government to assist in the task of education. In our current culture, however, the Government sphere has encroached upon, gobbled up, and taken responsibility for huge parts of the family sphere.
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Your idea of “encroachment” may be correct. However, and I do agree, encroachment can occur only because we have become weak and fail, as Christians, to speak out. Our forefathers seemed to have more backbone than many do today, or was it because they were in the majority and not the minority as Christians are today? Tammy, was right about volunteering in the public schools and becoming a part of the solution rather than simply complaining and doing nothing. The schools welcome volunteers and the volunteers have the opportunity to touch many lives in that role. Teachers have such tremendous demands on them today. They need our support, encouragment, love, and prayers! And, coming alongside them as Christian brothers and sisters is invaluable. I know, I spent 36 years in public education and I would not trade the expereience for any other career. My wife was also a teacher for 34 years. She concurs.
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If the schools actually focused on real education, without indoctrination, then we would have easily sent our kids there. But government schools do not merely deliver a secular education and a poor one at that, they teach a worldly philosophy and these days a leftist political ideology.
Every year my wife and I wrestled with where to send our kids the next year and we had a chance to interview numerous principals and tour schools. What we were struck with is the overt religious themes and political correctness of everything.
Environmental religion permeated the walls with actual quotes from shamans and Gaia our Earth Mother. When we asked about discipline they said they brought in psychologists who practiced conflict resolution making sure everyone’s feelings were considered. When we asked about the actual education they explained their philosophy of multiculturalism. We looked at a history text book which explained that Pilgrims are people who “liked to travel”.
My son started out in a public college after having spent his life in Christian schools. He did not hide his Christianity. One particular professor decided to make an example of him and routinely ridiculed him. Once he made him stand in front of the whole class while the professor went on a rampage (Arcadia style) on his idiotic misogynistic violent religion and told him he should be ashamed of his ignorance. This has nothing to do with education.
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Thanks, Xion for bringing focus to the issue. The question is not should Christians be involved with Government education. I don’t think anyone would say otherwise. We should be salt and light in whatever place of life God has put us; community, schools, workplaces, organizations, etc.. However, for Christian parents whose responsibility it is to educate their children, is Government education an ally or antagonist?
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As a retired public school teacher I am convinced that our only hope is to rescue our children from the public (government) schools and raise a godly generation.
Please see “Call to Dunkirk” at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRGZLSVph3A.
Public schools cannot be redeemed. Saying we should not abandon them is like saying the passengers of the Titanic should have stayed aboard because the band was playing good music and the captain was a good man.
Please also see http://insectman.us/exodus-mandate-wv/index.htm.
We must RESCUE OUR CHILDREN!
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Missionaries should be seasoned Christians, not young children who are easily swayed. It is hard for adults, much less children to stand up against negative peer pressure. God gives instruction to His people for these situations: I Cor 15:23 says that evil companions corrupt good morals. Our culture is becoming more and more anti God and anti Public expression of faith every day. My neighbors have a 10 year old daughter in the public school. I live in a good area with “good” schools and a high Christian influence in the community and this ten year old became part of a group of other ten year old girls in her elementary school who taught her how to watch internet pornography and talk to sexual predators online to lead them on. Unfortunately the influence will come from what the children in that school are learning at home. They bring it and share it with your children. Of course, I know Christians that don’t see anything wrong with their children dating unbelievers even though God commands it not to be done.. I homeschooled mine and they are now homeschooling theirs. You can tell the difference in a major way between their attitudes and behavior from most public school children. People come up to us and say, “Your children are homeschooled aren’t they?” It’s very noticeable.
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DRDOUGL at #84 wrote: “Quit blaming the public schools for the failures of the church and the home.”
No sir. With respect, I do blame the public school but NOT for what the home or the church in America are doing or are not doing. That’s another problematic issue and a few of your other points were well taken. I blame the public schools (realizing that there are a few healthy exceptions) for what the public schools are doing (leftist anti-Christian indoctrination) and not doing (educating our children responsibly passing on a healthy heritage).
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DRDOUGL, many on this thread have affrimed the value of the church and the home for passing on our heritage of faith and none of us think that all homes and churches in America are doing a perfect job.
But I think you miss the point of this thread, probably because you feel a bit defensive for the pub. sch. system. Whatever is or is not happening in various homes and churches, the public school system remains a terrible and abusive problem in our time to an alarming extent (worse than in previous times).
Maybe I am a bit defensive on behalf of the home and the church, DRDOUGL, which are both under horrific and aggressive assault today in our culture, especially in gov’t schools.
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I am of the opinion that Christians would be much better off not attending public schools. Perhaps if Christians knew more of the history of those schools many would have second thoughts about having their children in them. I would recommend a book written more than 30 years ago by Samuel Blumenfeld called “Is Public Education Necessary?” Mr. Blumenfeld contended that it was not and I agree with him. Public schools as we now have them in this country were founded by Unitarians and socialists and their chief aim was to blunt the influence of church schools. It was never really about true education to begin with and it has never been about it since. In spite of many good teachers over the years, the public school system is and has been a vehicle for anti-Christianity.
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Al Benson, I strongly suspect that it isn’t true that “their chief aim was to blunt the influence of church schools.” The church was strong when public schools started.
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Govt schools have a religious worldview handed to them from the NEA via Dept of Ed. This religous worldview is cultural marxism. Most Christian kids are not well grounded in apologetics to discern the lies from this worldview and too many buy into the lies.
Many Barna Research institute reports demonstrate the adverse effects on Christian kids and the most telling is a powerpoint slide show on worldview testing from: http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/index.php
Govt schooling is definitely a bad influence on these kids.
As one of the posters stated, you also have to be cautious of many ‘Christian’ schools as the worldview they teach is not much better than that of govt schools.
On top of that. The govt schools have been an expensive academic failure since the 1970s. But that is part of cultural marxism.
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CHERYL,
Al is correct. Horace Mann was a unitarian and is father of govt education institutions. His goal was to blunt the Christian influence. As the story goes, the Protestants went along with the compulsory state school program to blunt the influence of Catholics with their Catholic schools.
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Arcadia says,
Teaching that other cultures exist with wildly different paradigms isn’t a bad thing, no. And good Christian schools teach this too.
Obviously. But this is no different than anyone else, including you, who relies on his own epistemological assumptions to make judgments about right and wrong.
Wrong. A faithful Muslim is not a moral relativist, even though he has a radically different view of morality than a Christian. A moral relativist, on the other hand, believes that transcendent moral truth doesn’t exist.
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And who is going to pay for these students to attend Christian schools? Many families do not have the money for tuition.
I attended several Christian schools throughout the 70s and 80s. They were anything but Christian. Back-stabbing, prejudice, bullying, etc.–you name it. And the teachers and administration was powerless to do anything about it. Excellence was not encouraged, but was seen as “making a god out of education,” or as being “an intellectual”–which was a bad thing. I received a terrible education, especially in math and science.
I went off to a liberal, east-coast Ivy League college which was a breath of fresh air. Yeah, I was the only church goer (and only Republican) among my close friends, but the education was fabulous, my friends were wonderful people, and I found a great church nearby.
My spouse is the product of an inner-city public school. He had a much better experience–a great education, wonderful friends, and opportunities for Christian groups on campus.
Why do Christians constantly feel the need to segregate themselves from “the world”? This fear of anything “ungodly” only stunts one’s personal growth, and perhaps even one’s faith.
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There are some really good points made in this blog. I believe this is a very difficult area.
We have homeschooled our children. I think part of our consideration was that these are young children who are impressionable and still forming their values. We did not want to subject the children to teaching we might not believe is right and have it coming from authority figures. Besides, we have been accomplishing the same amount of learning in less time and exposing the children to other aspects of life outside of sitting in a classroom.
Our oldest is now in college and doing very well. He has the foundation needed to now be exposed to anti-Christian ideas (and he has – i.e., teachers stating that no logical person accepts anything except evolution today, etc.) and be able to consider what he has learned and how to evaluate the evidence.
I do agree with the sentiment of taking back the public schools and thank the many people out there striving to carry out this mission and helping many other children.
I also agree with the statements made about the family. Our Christian families have fallen far in this nation. We really need to pray for restoration so we can restore our society. In a related issue, we have found it quite disturbing that many of the homeschool families are just “slightly” different than society at large. The children may be slightly better behaved and hold a little better values, but it isn’t too much different. In some cases, the parents are overprotecting the children so that they cry and fuss about everything and are incredibly spoiled and self-centered. Families are struggling and often watch and do what many of the non-Christian families do in everyday life. I am not advocating running away from the world, but many are certainly conforming to the world.
I would hope everyone on this site can pray for each other. We need it, our Christian families need it, our country certainly needs it, and our fellow Christians throughout the world would benefit as well.
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93 & 95: I totally disagree with the premise that all modern public education systems were ultimately anti-Christian and Marxist in their founding. In Ontario, public education was founded by a Methodist circuit preacher and sincere Christian, Egerton Ryerson, in the 1840’s. He wanted to see “every child of my native land in the school going way… witnessing one comprehensive and unique system of education from the a.b.c. of the child up to to the matriculation of the youth into the provincial university.”
His system was imitated by the other provinces. Canada’s provinces each have control over their own free, public and mandatory education system, there is no Federal Ministry of Education.
Here, Christianity gradually declined in the schools because it had declined in the churches, with textual criticism and liberal theology seriously damaging the authority of Scripture. When the teachers of pluralism show more certainty in their beliefs than many pastors who question the first five chapters of Genesis and practice higher criticism, whom do you think young people will be more inclined to trust?
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Government education has shifted its emphasis to promoting political correctness and a secular world view first and actual education second. Unfortunately Christian education in our experience emphasizes a Christian world view first and actual education second.
What we were always looking for, and never found, is a school that cared about actual education about important subjects first. We wanted them to teach kids how to learn and engender a love of learning.
What we did find is Christian schools that handed out memorization sheets every day from a prefabricated curriculum. This was less of an issue in elementary school, but became a real problem in jr high and high school.
In high school we switched our kids out of a strict fundamentalist school where learning was drudgery to a charismatic school where they were given responsibility and expected to step up and perform. This was certainly an improvement, but the actual education was lacking.
Give us schools that emphasis education first and all agendas second and you will see parents rushing to them. Does such a place exist?
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PHOS,
You may want to disagree about the founding of modern public education, but that is a hard path to support in light of Horace Mann’s legacy. You are also trying to apply Canada to the American system.
Our version would compare to Canada about the very late 1800s/early 1900s with John Dewey coming on the scene. He was the real architect for the anti-Christian emphasis in our govt schools and implementation of secular humanism at the time.
The Christian community at that point had sunk into the secular-sacred split and left the schools to the secular world (that was the era of higher criticism as you point out). But that was a mantra from the media and the university system.
Every institution professes a worldview. The govt schools push an anti-Christian, Political Correctness (cultural Marxist) worldview. Because it is centrally controlled by the NEA via the DoE it mirrors their Marxist worldview.
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Sigh. So many comments about homeschooling by people who have no actual knowledge. Homeschooled children have just as much opportunity to socialize. Most do more than the average child in an institutional setting because of our flexible schedules and because of our cultural norm of getting up and doing for ourselves rather than sitting around waiting for the government or the staff of an institution to do it for us.
Let’s begin at the beginning. What is the role of the family and what is the role of government? The role of the family is to provide for the needs of their own children (food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care) and to prepare those children for this life and for Christians, the next.
The role of government is to protect the rights of citizens from being violated by people and by the government. It is not morally the job of government (and the taxpayers) to provide an education for children. Many of us homeschool and private school our children because we’re opting out of socialized (government) education.
It’s no better for government to have control of education than it it for government to have control of religion or healthcare for many of the same reasons. It’s time alleged conservatives stopped living like socialists and took on their responsibility (financially) to see to their children’s educations themselves at home or in the private sector. For a believer, it’s to live a Christ-centered life for themselves and their children. That’s not possible in a secular school 6+ hours a day for 13 years.
Or, as Voddie Bacham so brilliantly asks, “Whose image is on the coin? Caesar’s. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s (tax dollars.) Whose image is on the child? Render unto God what is God’s (the child.)”
Don’t order Chinese food at the French restaurant-they don’t do that there. The children of believers should no more be getting a secular education than they should be getting a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist education. They are all equally not Christian. There is no such thing as a values neutral education or an education absent a worldview. Decide what kind of values and worldview Scripture calls you to provide and don’t give your children something contrary to it.
Billy Graham is simply wrong. We don’t send soldiers into battle until they are fully grown and they have been fully trained for it. There is no logical way a person can argue that a 5, 9, 12, 16 year old has been fully trained for battle at home in off hours and on Sundays while being immersed by the enemy 6+ hours a day, and that would be for the children who are themselves believers. For the children who are not saved or not saved yet, there is no possible way they can be missionaries. It’s theologically unsound to argue that they could be.
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XION,
Does such a place exist? For a Christian child? yes…homeschool.
Don’t know if you went to the Nehemiah Institute site, but a true Christian worldview school is not the typical Christian school. If the teachers are certified from an NCATE accredited college you’ll generally have a mediocre education system whether govt or Christian school.
A true Christian worldview school is based on the rigors of a classic education with teachers that have been deprogrammed from the NCATE program or experts in their field from the outside. These schools are far and few between. I know what you mean about the schools you described.
Have you gone through The Truth Project yet? You did receive the set didn’t you?
If you can stream Netflix there is a very interesting film called:
Waiting for Superman. It’s a secular documentary on the multiple levels of failure of our govt education system (aka: the blob) and does present some rare exceptions found in a few charter schools. But they still indoctrinate the wrong worldview. Every school is going to instill their particular worldview into the child along with the academics.
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HOMESCHOOL MOM,
Great post. What a godly model you and your family are living.
The only comment I have for consideration is that govt does have control of religion; the religion of Political Correctness that it uses to indoctrinate the pupils.
I’m on the western edge of AZ. The next best thing than homeschool is use of the tuition and scholarship tax credit that only is offered in AZ. That does answer ANB’s question in #98.
God Bless
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102: My point was that public education is merely a tool of providing literacy and learning to those who need it. The concept does not inherently originate from one worldview or another.
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Looking for an Educational Approach?
Eight Different Approaches to Education in the Homeschool Community
Most homeschoolers use a combination of these approaches. Homeschooling is inherently flexible, so these approaches can be adapted and modified in any way the parent chooses. This is a bird’s eye view making very broad generalizations.
===Traditional School Approach ===
Typically uses prepackaged curriculum with a Scope and Sequence educational philosophy. Their daily and yearly schedules usually follow the 6 hour days of institutional settings and a 180 day school year with the summer off, but many allow their children to work at their own pace and finish early. Grading systems like those used in traditional school settings are the norm and aged grades mimic schools. Textbooks and workbooks are their primary texts. Fill in the blank and multiple choice are characteristic of this crowd. Children are generally taught the same information around the same age and proceed along the same path, although some may do so faster or slower.
Think institutional school.
=== Unschooling Approaches A and B===
This is a broad term that applies to two distinct groups.
Group A
Generally believes children are wired for learning, and their job as teachers is to avoid interfering with the learning process. Their job is also to provide access to learning (books, lab equipment, etc.) guided by the child’s interests. They do not necessarily think children need to be “taught” outside of answering a child’s questions. Real life, hands-on projects and applied learning experiences are strongly preferred to other methods of instruction. Some will allow children to take classes of interest in an institutional setting-usually college.
Think Thomas Edison and John Holt.
Group B
Designs every learning experience to answer the question, “When am I going to use this in real life?” by actually using almost exclusively real life, hands on, applied situations and projects. Only the real world here. They tend to be systematic and adult directed but are very careful to take additional time to follow a child’s interests some too.
===Unit Study Approach ===
Typically these people integrate studies based on an era, historical event, person, character trait, technological development, or historical person. For example, if the Depression is the core of the unit study, Math (if possible), Literature, Science (if possible), History, Economics, and Writing will hinge on different elements of the Great Depression. This gives the student multidimensional understanding. Each child is given different assignments based on ability, but all study the same core theme.
===Living Books Approach ===
Only the best literature and writings at the child’s level on each subject are used. Think of it this way, instead of reading from a distilled over simplified textbook on the Civil War, these teachers have their students read several of the books about the Civil War that an author of a textbook would read preparing to write the textbook. Now, think of doing that for Science, History, Economics, Literature, Art, etc. This crowd is also known for nature studies, narration, dictation,
===Classical Education===
Classical education has at least three distinct camps. They can be integrated as much as the teacher prefers. They all have a strong preference for first source materials and use primarily Western Classics (Also called the Western Canon, or the Common Book of the Western World.) Some can include the study of “dead” languages (Hebrew, Classical or Biblical Greek, and Latin) although some are content with good English translations of Classic works while others opt for studies of Latin and Greek Roots in English.
Group A
Characterized by the Trivium. The 3 stages have many terms:
1. Stage 1 Grammar (facts)
2. Stage 2 Logic (cause and effect) All stages of formal Logic inductive, deductive, Aristotelean,etc.
3. stage 3 Rhetoric (application.) Formal argumentation is studied.
Formal Logic and Rhetoric are studies specifically. History is usually studied chronologically. Logic is studied formally, and Science is studied with both experimentation, biographies, and original writings of the greatest minds. Classic works from masters throughout Western Civilization in all Eras are studied. Some integrate History, Geography, Science and Literature into a more unit study approach.
Think Dorothy Sayers.
Group B
Characterized by the Mentor Model and sometimes called a “Statesmen” education. Morals, virtue, and character are emphasized above all.
1. In the early years children are allowed to follow their interests and learn good character and right and wrong while developing a strong work ethic.
2. The middle years are when a teacher begins inspiring students by reading classic works by the best minds on the subjects and entering into apprenticeship situations with masters of certain skills.
3. The later years the students are mentored in apprenticeships in entrepreneurial situations for their future leadership roles and professional pursuits.
Think Thomas Jefferson.
Group C
Also known as the Principle Approach. This is a method often attributed to how many of the Founders were educated.
1. Research the topic by looking up ideas
a. first source materials (original writings, documents, autobiographies, first hand historical accounts, etc.
b. look up terms in dictionary (keeping in mind dictionaries that are specific to the era)
c. look up terms in your sacred writings or other sources related to your beliefs (Christians-Bible)
2. Reason through the material looking for the underlying principles.
3. Relate the information you have found through research and reason and apply it to your life.
4. Record your findings in a logical, systematic, and persuasive format.
Think James Madison.
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#104 RwHawk “Does such a place exist? For a Christian child? yes…homeschool.”
Well, it is possible, but I know a lot of home schools that follow the same curriculum our Christian school followed, i.e. A-beka or Bob Jones. Home School Mom lists other approaches, but I’ve never seen them used. It would be interesting to see a comparative study of those methods. I am actually surprised how many home schoolers in our area never complete high school and do not go on to college.
“Have you gone through The Truth Project yet? You did receive the set didn’t you?”
Yes, I have it and have done the first one so far. Not bad.
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Ultimately, God has entrusted the children to their parents and if those parents walk with Him, they make the best choice they can according to the light they have.
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@Xion: Government education has shifted its emphasis…
Does it make sense to draw such a broad generalization, given the fact that “government education” is still basically administered at the state and local levels? Especially when one can point to many public school teachers and principals who can honestly (and accurately) say that their primary emphasis is education and not “promoting political correctness”?
That the emphasis has shifted from one to the other strikes me as a complete exaggeration. Even if it’s true that there’s more emphasis on “promoting political correctness” than there used to be (which is probably the case), that doesn’t imply it has replaced actual education as the schools’ primary goal.
@Homeschool Mom: It is not morally the job of government…
Why not? Why is the issue of whether the people delegate to their government the task of maintaining a system of schools to serve the children of parents who are either unwilling or unable to educate them at home a moral one?
Note that this question isn’t intended express disagreement with your description of what the government’s role should be. My quibble is with your having framed it as a “moral” issue.
@Homeschool Mom: It’s no better for government to have control of education…
For what it’s worth, government doesn’t control education. It provides a public system that you’re free to opt out of if you so choose (though you’re still required to fund it). This is mostly the choice of state governments, though, since most education funding is state/local.
@Homeschool Mom: There is no such thing as a values neutral education or an education absent a worldview…
Depending on the subject, I very much disagree. Your point rings most true in subjects like literature and history. Less so (or not at all) on subjects like mathematics, geography, grammar and foreign languages.
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XION,
I will be very interested in what you think about lessons 6-10.
Our culture is teeming with an anti-intellectual bent and it will be difficult to find those that have broken the cultural mold and are truly incorporating a rigorous education program. We have allowed the bombardment of media to get in the way.
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PHOS,
102: My point was that public education is merely a tool of providing literacy and learning to those who need it. The concept does not inherently originate from one worldview or another.
Every subject in school is based upon a worldview; a philosophical system of presuppostions and instilling in the students that particular worldview. The schools have moved from the Christian worldview through secular humanism in the early 1900s and now with its kissing cousin cultural marxism since the 1970s or so.
There is a philosophical presuppostion to education techniques (didactic Vs dialectic), choice of subjects, what history covers, what math is, what science is, what literture is, what sociology and civics consists of; it even gets into the physical education departments.
Govt schools have never been a neutral, religion free institution as too many Christians mistakingly believe.
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BG,
Your argument stems from your worldview presuppostions based on statism and the Marxist worldview questioning the truths of the Christian worldview. Either believe God is and He is Truth or believe man is the measure of all things and the state is one of his gods.
The Fed govt does control all schooling via Goals 2000,NCLB and Obama’s Race to the Bottom with the carrot and stick approach directing the states into specific directions and fully incorporating Political Correctness.
You’d do well to watch the secular based movie Waiting for Superman to better appreciate the abject failure of govt provided education. Then watch Indoctrination to learn about worldview differences in this particular field.
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#89
Amen!
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#94
Actually, Cheryl, he’s correct. You have only to read some of the influential founders that present public education follows to know that they INTENTIONALLY founded public education to be anti-Christian and anti-parent.
Now, the public schools before Dewey and Blumenfeld and their like? Maybe not. But, these people (highly influential in teacher education programs and in public schools) definitely changed the direction of public schools and we’re seeing their fruits on down the line.
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It is so hard to explain to others who haven’t yet thought down the same lines or who have not been (i.e. worked) in the public schools.
It is about *world view.* It’s not about Christian teachers, or Christian principals, or whether or not your school is doing a good job in test scores (again, see the John Stossel report above. Almost ALL parents think that *their* schools are the exception…and they simply aren’t.)
It is about the millions of subtle little messages sent through the textbooks, the word choices, the newsletters, the discussion, the other children, the parents, the facial expressions — and more — ALL DAY LONG for 13 years.
You can’t counteract it, because, most of the time, you’re not even aware of it.
But, the world view in public schools is NOT a Christian one, despite Christian teachers and Christian principals.
Partly, as someone else explained, because those principals and teachers are products of an extremely Left teacher education system. Ask me how I know!!
I was pushed so far to the Left by my own teacher education program that you would have though I was Arcadia’s kid.
Through the grace of God, He “deprogrammed” me over the years. But, it was a slow process, and I can tell you that this Christian teacher was pretty sold on the PC version of life when I taught in public schools.
And, I was nice. And, I called myself Christian. And, I believed in what I was doing.
If you don’t understand world view, though, you just won’t “get it.” It will be about other things, and you will keep seeing the trees and not see the forest.
Admittedly, we’ve had similar concerns about Christian schools. Each year, we talk about putting our oldest back into school at one of the number of Christian schools in this area.
One is Classical, and has a very good reputation for actual education. But, it is rigid and hasn’t heard of God’s grace except on paper. The hearts of the school’s management are not in the right place.
Another is tempting, because their faculty is so nice, and the kids are reasonably nice. The school’s “heart” is in the right place. But, oh, its education! It is so below what my kids are getting at home, that I simply can’t justify going back to work to pay for LESS (much less) in the education department.
Another only goes to 6th grade (and is new), and yet another has all sorts of internal problems because it is basically run by its church and its pastor.
There are other schools outside this area. And, I too feel the pull for my kids to have more social time regularly and all the fun things that school provides (I loved school!)
But, I can’t justify the expense and the “dent” it would make in their education.
So, I know that Christian schools aren’t always the answer.
And, of course, I’ve definitely run into the homeschool parents that should NEVER have homeschooled their kids. So, I know it isn’t perfect as well.
But, still, the blindness so many Christian parents show to the problems of public school amazes me. I think it is because, if they really saw and understood the problems, then they would HAVE to do something about it. And, they don’t want to. It means time, or expense, or both. So much easier to assume that *their* school is fine and *their* kids are different.
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@Rwhawk: Either believe God is and He is Truth or believe man is the measure of all things and the state is one of his gods.
I reject that rigid dichotomy. If I were to accept it, though, I’d fall on the side of “God is and He is Truth”. I don’t see how holding that view contradicts anything I said.
@Rwhawk: The Fed govt does control all schooling via Goals 2000,NCLB and Obama’s Race to the Bottom with the carrot and stick approach directing the states into specific directions and fully incorporating Political Correctness.
We must have different definitions of “control”. States have a huge degree of latitude in how they handle education, including curriculum, even within the constraints imposed by federal aid programs. Moreover, they can avoid the constraints entirely if they’re willing to do forgo those funds.
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Tammy,
Now, the public schools before Dewey and Blumenfeld and their like? Maybe not.
That was my point. Dewey, no quibble, and Blumenfeld I can’t address. But was the very foundation of the idea of educating all an anti-Christian one, I doubt it. Partly because Christians tend to be the ones who come up with such things as providing health care or education for the community, not pagans. Those sorts of things tend to start out as “missionary” endeavors, not things that unbelievers decide to do.
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BG,
Many call themselves Christian but are heavily syncretized into the Politically Correct worldview. NOTE Tammy’s excellent post in #116. She also noted quite accurately that unless you have been taught to understand the competing worldviews you will fail to recognize them and most fail to recognize even their own.
A Christian worldview places the responsibility of education upon the parents and the church, not the state. This is God’s truth. The Marxist worldview is just the opposite. To not understand the worldview values built into the subjects at school indicates an inability to discern worldviews and God’s truth. To believe that any educational institution can be values neutral also indicates a lack of worldview discernment. You have to intentionally put time and effort into learning worldviews to distinguish one from the other.
As you noted in a previous post, we are suffering cultural decay. This decay is driven very deliberately by a worldview.
States do have some latitude. But if they don’t adopt the central govt’s program (Obama’s race to the bottom, now) then they forgo funding which only one or two states have done. Besides, whether it is a central govt or the states governments it is still a socialist enterprise preaching a Politically Correct worldview in its curriculum and teaching methods as teachers and textbooks come out of pretty much the same worldview molds. This particular role of the state is usurping the sovereigh spheres of church and family roles and responsibilities.
To teach a Christian worldview in a govt school God would have to be glorified in all that is taught and glorifying the name Jesus Christ with the gospel message. Does a state have that latitude? If not, then what worldview is taught? You point out that I present a rigid dichotomy (it’s actually a sliding scale from Christian worldview to Marxist worldview with degrees of syncretizing between). What other worldview options do you suggest are built into the education system. You will find elements of postmodernism, new age and Islam but the predominate one that I find is Political Correctness (aka cultural marxism).
There are two ways to define religion. One is functional and the other is substantive. The functional definition is basically ‘worldview’ and the substantive is belief and worship of a supernatural being. Obama and his Rev Wright and Jim Wallis all claim to be Christians per the substantive definition but are holding to various sects of the Marxist religion in their values and practices and liberation and black liberation theology.
Read #116, Tammy is so clear on this.
Understanding the Times by David Noebel would be an excellent source to begin an education journey through the various worldviews.
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The problem is that Christian parents want somebody else to do all the training of their kids. They don’t want to teach them the gospel or how to read or the birds and the bees, essentially NOTHING. They want the kids to get it all through osmosis from other people while the parents work two jobs to pay for a flat screen and a boat and alimony for their first marriage.
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I really don’t see what the argument is. Why would Christians have to contemplate giving the social system their children to educate. The book of Titus is clear about the responsibility of a parent. How can that be accomplished in the public school system? I feel sorry for kids who are being sniffed by dogs for drugs, have need of security guards for safety and have to be subject to textbooks to learn from. My children just aren’t worth risking their safety or their faith.
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What other worldview options do you suggest are built into the education system.
For most subjects I’d argue the public system is values neutral. I say fully realizing you think such a thing is impossible.
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“I say that full realizing…”
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John M., that looks pretty cynical to me as a broad sweep of “Christians.” In fact, having been part of the church for 40 years, I don’t even recognize that stereotype, though I have seen bits and pieces of it among people I know.
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Some of you are assuming that those of us who sent our children to public schools did so without prayer, thought, or examination.
The Lord calls all of us to our own specific life; he’s put within us gifts, talents and abilities to serve his purposes. Sometimes they don’t make sense. Sometimes they seem the opposite of what we want to do. Our role is to pray, think, examine the direction we believe God is sending us and act.
Not everyone is called to the same thing–that’s why there are so many different types of Christians in the world, placed in so many different spots.
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I see that Hawk is back…trying again to convince us that Dutch neo-Calvinism defines the outer bounds of Christianity. I’ll make several comments in reply.
First, Hawk has no business criticizing anyone else of syncretism. The “gospel” he peddles, i.e., that of neo-Calvinism, is nothing if not syncretistic. It’s basically a Christianized version of the philosophy of the Baden School (of neo-Kantian philosophers) and Husserl’s phenomenology.
Second, Hawk’s neo-Calvinist brand of Christianity was probably first articulated in Groen’s “Unbelief and Revolution,” which was first published in 1845. Groen was primarily railing against the ideas of Karl Marx, whose “Communist Manifesto” published in 1847. Groen was, if anything, obsessed with debunking Marx. Thus, Groen’s followers, i.e., neo-Calvinists, have a bizarre penchant for seeing a Marxist bogeyman behind everything they oppose…even though less than a fraction of a percent of the American population would agree with Marx on most things.
Third, one must also wonder whether what Hawk and his fellow neo-Calvinists think about the Reformers? Was Luther not a true Christian? What about Calvin, Beza, and Vermigli? After all, not one of them held to the philosophy that Hawk espouses. It wouldn’t even be articulated for another 200-300 years. In fact, most Reformers, contrary to the neo-Calvinists, held a high view of natural revelation and believed that the book of nature was available to all to read–to the elect and the non-elect alike.
Fourth, maybe Hawk can help me understand how a “true Christian” does math differently from a secularist. Is there a Christian version of math where 1+1 is not 2?
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John M, it would probably best to qualify. Otherwise it sounds like you are talking about ALL Christian parents.
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BG,
You have to get to the presuppositions behind each subject.
The easiest one to dissect is the subject of science. The presupposition is that energy and matter are all that is and only natural forces are arbitrarily allowed to be considered. This is from the humanist/marxist worldview. This is contrary to the Christian worldview and is not values neutral.
History is another one. The marxist worldview of history is based on economic and class conflict. What we find in the textbooks is victimhood and class warfare. You’ll also find an evolutionary element in the history books based upon secular humanism.
In civic you’ll find the marxist worldview very extensively. Multicultural diversity, pluralism, moral relativism, social justice, etc. Literature books are loaded with the marxist presuppositions of sociology as well which are contrary to God’s truths.
Even the dialectic teaching method is marxist based Vs the didactic method which is biblically based. This establishes a different mindset of thinking based upon emotions and feelings Vs logic and other critical thinking skills.
The govt schools are loaded with religious values, just the wrong, very faulty religion.
You’d do yourself a real favor by reading Understanding the Times to learn about your worldview Vs a Christian worldview. Learn to discern the presuppostions being used.
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Hi EVAN,
Perhaps you can answer your own question regarding math with these two questions:
1. Are students taught that math is a form of logic given to us by God to His glory?
2. Are students indoctrinated to radical environmentalism, for instance, with the word questions possed in the math books?
What you don’t understand is that Goals 2000, NCLB and Race to the Bottom require an NGO known as CCE to intergrate the Politically Correct themes of the day into every subject matter taught in school so the students are immersed in that theme of the day as they go from subject to subject.
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According to Barna Group, 78% of the Christian kids leave the church by the time they complete 1 year of college. We are losing 78% of our kids. Our Christian children are being thrown like lambs to the slaughter in the public schools. The are fed a diet of moral relativism, liberal social policy, and values that directly undermine what they are taught at home and at church. The schools have your children for 40 hours a week to fill their heads with anti-biblical teachings. How are little children supposed to deal with this-after all this is their teachers, adults who they trust. If the teacher says it, it must be true. At the least doubts are planted. If at all possible make the sacrifice financially to put your children in Christian schools or homeschool. God has commanded YOU to raise up your children in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. Why would your turn the training of your children over to secular anti-Christian institutions who will undermine everything you attempt to teach them. On a purely academic level, they are not being taught accurate American History, they are given revisionist theory, inculcated with humanist teachings, and they listen to constant criticism of everything we believe in. Little children are unable to be discerning until they have been taught God’s truth. Growing up in a Christian home, Christian school, Christian church, Christian community of believers will produce Christian adults who are ready and prepared to be a light to the world.
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#130 – I do NOT trust Barna or the Barna group. But you still made some good points yourself, Hannah.
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MICHELLE wrote; “Some of you are assuming that those of us who sent our children to public schools did so without prayer, thought, or examination.”
True. I still do. I have no suspicion, however, that you have done so and I know that many sincere believers do this. But as for the vast majority, I still presume as you say.
I also agree with MICHELLE that Not everyone is called to the same thing.
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Syntax check – To be clear, I am fully confident that if MICHELLE sent her kids to public school, she did so with great prayer, thought and examination and that masny sincere believers have also done this.
But I still think most who send their kids to public school do not do this.
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“According to Barna Group, 78% of the Christian kids leave the church by the time they complete 1 year of college. We are losing 78% of our kids. ”
I do not want to minimize the fact that we’re losing a lot of our kids, or deny that education has a lot to do with it.
But for that 78% figure to be at all plausible, especially in so short a span of time as 1 year of college they must be including all kids who had some form of membership in some form of church, regardless of their involvement or commitment level.
A typical kid who is actually actively involved in and committed to his beliefs and then falls away as a result of the worldliness of college life and education is probably going to take more than 1 year to make the break completely. No way could it be happening at a 3 to 1 ratio, if we’re talking about kids whose religious practice actually has some substance to it. Those aren’t the children of believers serious about raising their kids in the faith, but of all people who have ever had a connection to a church during their kids’ childhood.
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1. Are students taught that math is a form of logic given to us by God to His glory?
They’re not taught that it isn’t either. That’s what I mean by values neutral.
If I teach a kid to tie his shoes without mentioning that shoes are gifts from God, am I teaching from a secularist, Marxist worldview?
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BG,
…That’s what I mean by values neutral
That is not values neutral. This is directly supporting the philosophical presupposition of naturalism which is part of the marxist worldview instilled in govt schools. That is denying God and the mighty, powerful gift He has given us to deal with life. Same with the laws of nature, laws for civil society, laws of logic, etc.
By not recognizing God is denying Him which is a sin; a sin of intentional omission. The glory of God is intentionally denied.
If I teach a kid to tie his shoes without mentioning that shoes are gifts from God, am I teaching from a secularist, Marxist worldview?
That depends upon a much larger picture. One item does not make a worldview. What do you teach the kid about God? That He is the creator of heaven, earth and all life? That through His grace we have a wonderful world to live in? That we should be thankful to Him for all we have? That we are created in the image of God to be creative and invent and manufature products to better enjoy life? That govt schools teach a false religion and are enemies of God’s Truth?
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PENTAMOM 1,
Ken Ham has a more revealing study. The kids are already lost by ages 13/14 in a study that he was involved with. He’s co-author of a book with the title Already Gone.
Here’s a link to an excellent video on demand:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media#/video/ondemand/state-of-the-nation
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RWHAWK, “This is directly supporting the philosophical presupposition of naturalism. . . .” No, it isn’t. Math is a gift of God, but so is everything. It is not “intentionally denying” God’s glory to teach math facts without going into theology. Is it good to tell children that math is logical and God-given? Of course it is, and it’s good to tie all learning into a cohesive whole. But one can teach math facts without pointing out the theology behind them without denying God in the process.
If I were to hire a music teacher to teach my child, I wouldn’t mind her pointing out that God has given us a beautiful gift in music, but I’m hiring her to teach the child how to play notes. I can, and should, integrate her music into an appreciation for God’s gifts, but the music teacher can be a good teacher without spending time (especially when children are young) not going into how music and math are connected, or how music and theology are connected. There is nothing evil or glory-robbing about her teaching the music notes and not discussing the broader picture at all. (In fact, unless I totally trust her theology, or unless I’m there in all the lessons myself, I’d probably rather she concentrate on the music. I wouldn’t trust every Christian to wax theological in ways I’d want my children under.)
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A physical education teacher could take time to tell her class how God made the body and it all works together. And if physiology is integrated in the course, she should. On the other hand, she might well be shirking her work by taking time to “lecture” instead of showing the proper way to dribble a basketball. The fact that all of life is connected and all under God, and that we ought to use every teachable moment to teach, does not mean that not directly linking a discipline to its Creator is denying God His glory.
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CHERYL,
Put this whole issue into perspective and the full response I gave to BG. The one issue does not make a worldview; it will consist of the whole picture within the govt school program. The whole program is built upon an anti-God worldview; Political Correctness. God is not glorified at all and denigrated often and totally ignored when He should be recognized.
The math issue is only one of a number of issues. Connect the dots. Take a look at answer #2 in 129.
Take into consideration 1 Corinthians 10:31 (HCSB)
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for God’s glory.
As far as PE: many schools have dropped or downplayed scoring competive sports and other competitive events in the Politically Correct name of fairness so there will not be winners and lossers that will have their valuable self esteem fractured. This pushing a specific worldview and denying God’s truth about life.
The fact that all of life is connected and all under God, and that we ought to use every teachable moment to teach, does not mean that not directly linking a discipline to its Creator is denying God His glory.
I agree on your use of every teachable moment. I refer you to the second response in #136. But to always deny God’s glory in govt schools and ignore His role in the creation and provision of laws and teach contrary to His truths is a sin.
As I explained to BG in #128 you have to identify the philosophical presuppositions behind the govt educational system. You’ll find they are based on humanism, primarily cultural marxism. Connecting the dots of the subjects taught will confirm this anti-God worldview indoctrination.
Charles Francis Potter’s 1930 prophecy:
“Education is the most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday Schools, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?”
Humanism, A New Religion
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While some subjects are less influenced by worldview, I addressed the fact that an EDUCATION should be Christ-centered for the children of believers. I’m not aware of public schools that only teach certain core subjects to their students while allowing them to opt out of other core subjects. They have to take the full course of required subjects regardless of the level of values content. In those courses of study they are most certainly getting a secular-humanist education. There are some public schools that allow homeschooled students to pick and choose a few classes, but not the public school students. (I don’t support homeschoolers using public schools for anything.)
Would you argue the children of believers are in God’s will by providing them with a Muslim education? What if only some of the subjects like literature, philosophy, and history had a Muslim world view, but math, geography, grammar, and foreign languages didn’t? Is it still acceptable? Would you try to call it a values neutral education? I think there’s ultimately no difference between a Muslim education for the children of believers and a secular education for the children of believers. Is Secularism somehow more Christian than Islam? I don’t think so. I think they are both equally wrong because they are both not Christian.
I have yet to find a single Bible verse that’s addressed to anyone but parents when it comes to teaching children. I also see teaching children to be almost entirely values focused in Scripture. The values are far more important than academics to God, which does not mean lowering the standard of academics to the anemic values education most children of believers get at home during non-school hours and on Sundays, but rather elevating the teaching of values to be an even higher priority than value most Americans put on academics.
Avoiding the company and counsel of the godless seems to be pretty clear in Scripture. I’ve never heard a Biblical argument for sending children to a school that is secular-humanist in its views.
I argue that parents are morally obligated to provide for the needs of their children. I believe education is a need and is therefore responsibility of the parents. When parents demand their legal right to public education, they are saying, “We are entitled to the money of others. We should get $10,000+ per year, per child, for public school services while we are only paying out of our own pockets $________________ per year in taxes.” They want something (the full cost of a public school education) from people God did not give the responsibility of their children to. If they were willing to pay the FULL cost of educating their children out of their own pocket at the public school, I think they would have moral credibility on the subject. Liberal progressives know very well that getting people dependent on government keeps government expanding and the voters compliant. Who cares about the Constitution and Biblical responsibility when there’s a freebee (or near freebee) involved?
The federal and state governments have all kinds of control over education; funding, course content, teaching credentials, curriculum selection committees, etc. Have you not heard public school teachers lament how regulated and burdened they are with complying with government requirements? Homeschooling laws vary dramatically from state to state. Some, like PA, have all kinds of regulations that involve government supervision.
As to the Barna issue: I’m a 5 point TULIP waving Calvinist when it comes to election, so I don’t believe it’s possible to “raise” a child to become a Christian. I do believe it is my job as a believer to teach my children the truth and witness to them. Whether or not they become believers is not relevant to my responsibility to teach truth and witness. I’ll do what God told me to and trust Him with their souls.
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If you choose to leave the government school system for the homeschooling community rather than for a private Christian school, you should have a grasp of the culture.
Three Homeschooling Mind Sets
All three are present in today’s homeschool community. Some begin with one mindset and, over time, evolve into another. These mindsets characterize the primary motivations of homeschoolers; they do not encompass the many different reasons people homeschool.
Pioneers (First Wave Homeschoolers)
In the early 1980s, before the public schools were generally viewed as performing poorly and safety was not generally an issue, two groups of people emerged creating the modern homeschooling movement.
The first were largely Fundamentalist Christians who wanted what they called a “Christ-Centered Education.” Their goal was integrate relationships, life skills, academics, and religious training in equal proportions into the education of their children. They believed that God had a particular plan for each child’s life, and it was the job of the parent to educate and prepare their children as individuals for that purpose.
Meanwhile a secular group of parents, many inspired by John Holt’s writings, decided that keeping their children at home and customizing a education to suit their particular talents and interests emerged. They believed that real life and academics should be integrated to give a greater understanding of the world, and nurturing the self-motivation required for future success.
Both groups had different motivations, but some of their methodology was very similar. They practice tutorial style education with the flexibility that comes with customization. Apprenticeships, life experiences, and high quality academics are common between them. Neither group likes the Traditional Approach that is characteristic of institutional settings. In general, they share the conviction that institutional settings are bad for children, so of course, homeschooling is the only acceptable option to meet their goals.
These two groups were primarily responsible for the court battles necessary to make homeschooling a legally recognized option in each state. They currently fight to deregulate homeschooling nationwide.
Settlers (Second Wave Homeschoolers)
In the early 1990s several studies on academic performance revealed that homeschoolers were outperforming institutionalized children in both the public and private sectors. A group of parents took notice because academic performance was their number one priority.
They began homeschooling their children and enjoyed the flexible lifestyle. They do not have convictions that institutional settings are categorically bad for children, and many can afford private/religious education, but their children are thriving in the homeschooling environment. This group has a large mix of very religious and non-religious people, and everyone in between.
Settlers are primarily responsible for taking homeschooling into the mainstream.
Refugees (Third Wave Homeschoolers)
By the late 1990s and after the turn of the new millennium, public schools were getting bad press- specifically about negative social issues and poor academic performance. The floodgates of homeschooling opened and a new group of parents poured into the homeschool community.
They are fleeing. They do not like the charter schools and/or cannot afford a private/religious institutional setting, so they homeschool until they can afford private schools or until the public schools are seriously overhauled. They are responsible for fueling school choice debates nationwide.
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RWHawk, I agree with nearly everything you say in 140, except that singling out a teacher’s failure to mention God as a sin, when the teacher isn’t a believer, seems in a sense irrelevant. In other words, God will judge the person as a sinner someday, but the particular act of not talking about God may be more of a “passive” sin than an active one. Unbelievers don’t believe in God, and thus they don’t build their teaching around Him.
I do think it’s possible for such a teacher to be a fairly good teacher, not antagonistic to Christian parents and kids. Maybe it’s more and more rare that he would be, but I think it’s possible that such a teacher could teach in a basically objective way–teaching that there are different “theories” for the origin of the universe, for example, and not taking a stand for any. If students have that sort of teacher, who respects Christianity but is not a Christian, I do think good Christian parents can teach the child at home in a way that “makes sense” of what he learns at school, connecting the dots in all of life if you will.
I personally don’t like the tendency in some circles to homeschool (or send kids to Christian schools), eschew college altogether or send kids who should be well prepared to Bible college, and then the kid goes off into “ministry” working only among other Christians. I do think that at some level of life, the person needs to be interacting with unbelievers, whether it is in college, in one’s career, in a ministry outside work, or somewhere. (A very large part of my own life has been in somewhat insular Christian settings, for what it’s worth, including a conservative Bible college and my whole career working in Christian publishing. I went to Christian school for kindergarten and part of first grade, then public 1-8–mostly in the seventies, graduating from eighth grade in 1981–and then high school by correspondence. We were also in church several times a week, had daily family devotions, and memorized Scripture. So we were “taught” by multiple teachers, definitely including our parents.)
One quibble: My husband and I are currently reading through 1 Corinthians in the morning, and read the verse you quoted (1 Corinthians 10:31) a few days ago. “Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for God’s glory.” Though it is true that we should do everything for God’s glory, this verse is really usually taken out of context, as in this use. The text is saying whether you eat food offered to idols or refuse to do so, or whether you drink wine or refuse to do so, you should do it with your focus on God’s glory. Applied to this particular discussion, it would probably say something like, “Whether you homeschool your children or not, make your choice for the glory of God.”
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RWHawk — I’m more inclined to find that plausible, though I’m not in a position to judge either study. But it makes more sense to say that the kids were already on their way down as young teenagers, than to posit that Christian kids whose parents were serious about bringing them up in the faith, suddenly went from an actively practiced faith to literally nothing in one year of college. I don’t care how badly influenced you are, it’s got to be rare, not overwhelmingly common, to go from being regular in your church attendance and practice, to not even showing up for Christmas in your sophomore year of college, which is what “Christian kids who left the church” implies.
I don’t mean to say that Barna’s study claims exactly that, but it could be read that way, and so I’m more cautioning against reading that into the Barna study, than critiquing the study itself.
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CHERYL,
It’s not about any specific teacher. It’s about the worldview the education system uses.
A student will have over 3000 hours of math education over their K-12 lifetime. There will be many math textbooks they will go through. These math text books usually contain factoids about famous individuals of mathematics. Why isn’t God acknowledged as the Master Mathematician in any of these factoids? He gave us all the laws and theorems afterall. All these laws and theorems reflects His nature and character as logical and absolute, not a God of disorder, etc. The reason we make sense of the world and science exists is because there is order and logic all bound within His laws are consistent day in and day out.
About your quibble: it was easier at the time and more compact than to pull this out:
2. What Is Our Purpose in Life? The fact that God created us for his own glory determines the correct answer to the question, “What is our purpose in life?” Our purpose must be to fulfill the reason that God created us: to glorify him. When we are speaking with respect to God himself, that is a good summary of our purpose. But when we think of our own interests, we make the happy discovery that we are to enjoy God and take delight in him and in our relationship to him. Jesus says, “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10). David tells God, “In your presence there is fulness of joy in your right hand are pleasures for evermore” (Ps. 16:11). He longs to dwell in the house of the Lord forever, “to behold the beauty of the Lord” (Ps. 27:4), and Asaph cries out,
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing upon earth that I desire besides you.
My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion for ever. (Ps. 73:25–26)
Grudem, Wayne A.: Systematic Theology : An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich. : Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 1994, S. 441
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PENTAMOM1,
I agree. These studies and surveys can only be used as very rough gauges that do show trends. The real issue is the cosmic battle over the hearts and minds of our population, especially our youth.
HOMESCHOOLMOM in #141 raises a very fascinating point as I am a TULIP calvanist as well. It is only the Holy Spirit that will regenerate the elect who are dead to sin at that moment. There are a lot of people that call themselves Christian or attend church but have not been born again. The parable of the sower talks about this. Those that are saved will not fall away.
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Here’s an example of much of what’s wrong in government education. I’ve scored the standard exams in my State.
1-To be hired as a scorer you need to know the game. There were 50+ individuals there for the initial testing/hiring. Most were professionals and educated. Only six of us were hired. Having been a government school teacher in the past, I thought I knew why but asked my supervisor why only six? She said the others failed because they graded the trial tests too hard and it is too hard to teach them to grade down.
2-Without digging deep, I could tell when a batch of essays were from a private school or government school. There really was no comparison. Even the ‘good’ government schools didn’t hold a candle to any private school. To be fair, there were a few flickers of light in the government school, but they stood out for just that reason.
3-The game is rigged. About halfway through the process our supervisor called us together at the beginning of the shift. We were to be ‘recalibrated’. The State was not satisfied with the scores coming in and wanted them higher. Too bad for those already scored, I guess!
4-The game is bogus. The essay given was about some female astronomer from the 19th Century. The prompt for the student was why this individual would be a good role model. This was followed by other leading questions. World view issues here?
Anyway, some male student answered the prompt with this ‘essay’: “I believe Maria Mitchell would be a good role model for men because they would like to look at her hiney.” Being at a loss (after being recalibrated) as how to score this, I called my supervisor over. She puzzled and puzzled till her puzzler was sore. She called a gathering of the other supervisors together who ruminated together.
What was the scorer to do? Well, the student did answer the prompt correctly. It is a complex sentence. There are no spelling errors (although we were not to mark down for grammar or spelling). He received the highest score possible.
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The scriptures never give a picture of children as evangelists. The youngest picture of a NT evangelist is perhaps Timothy.
Of course, a child can know God, as we see in David and others, but the steeped-in-the-teachings-about-God Hebrew children of biblical times is unmatched in even in the most actively Christian American homes.
Even homeschooled Christian kids from very actively Christian homes get a thousand mixed messages every day about who and what God is: from the television, from their friends, from billboards and news and radio, from their own coveting, sinful hearts, from the phenomenal selection of everything from cereal to dental floss in their grocery stores, ad infinitum.
Add to this, the typical Christian American parenting technique of “broadening their horizons” by having them involved in every activity, every cultural enrichment, parents who are themselves three full generations into the never-tell-your-children-no-if-you-can-say-yes form of “happy parenting”, and you have a formula for mass exodus of children from the church once they reach adulthood. Of course, leaving the church, and leaving the faith, are not necessarily the same, but I digress.
In full disclosure, I say this as one who home schooled my children 18 years, all the way through to graduation. We finished with the last one in 2008, and are grandparents now.
To send any but the most strong-in-the-Lord-and-THE-POWER-OF-HIS-MIGHT child into a public school, is to give such child a choice, all his childhood, between believing what he hears and reads and does homework on 10 hours a DAY, and believing what he hears and reads maybe 10 hours a WEEK in Church (if he’s there for all the “culturally enriching” activities that American churches sponsor). It is to give him the choice, all of his childhood, between believing what his friends believe, and thereby fitting in to the non-church culture (which his parents made even more attractive by having him participate in all of its “enriching” activities), versus believing what his parents, and a few others that he has some social interaction with (though not 6-8 hours per day) believe, and thereby fitting into the church culture.
No wonder Christianized kids leave the church in droves in later life: the overwhelmingly likely choice, because of time and influence, is behind door number one.
We evangelicals give a lot of lip service to believers’ baptism, and argue that children shouldn’t be baptised until they have the cognitive ability to “believe”. Though I may not agree with every definition of “believe” out there in the Christian cosmos, I have to wonder why Franklin Graham, or any other leader, including parents who are de facto leaders in their homes, would require a certain level of mature understanding before a child is baptised, but then send that very same unsaved or immature-in-Christ child out there as “salt and light”.
Salt and light is a calling for the mature in Christ, not just a child who goes to church (who may not even know Christ, but is just growing up in church with all the churchy, “Jesus, bible, God” lingo). Without Christ dwelling in them, and strongly leading them, they will be, and are, eaten.
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