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Online poll: Who won Thursday’s GOP debate in Sioux City?
In the final debate before the Iowa caucus, seven GOP presidential hopefuls battled onstage Thursday night at the Sioux City Convention Center in Sioux City, Iowa. If you watched the debate on Fox News, let us know who you think won in our unscientific online poll.
Also, in the comments section below, let us know your thoughts on the candidates and the format of the debate sponsored by Fox News and the Republican Party of Iowa.
Topic: Campaign 2012, News Desk
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back to top361 Comments to “Online poll: Who won Thursday’s GOP debate in Sioux City?”
Hey, I got to vote first. Cool beans.
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All of them were good. Whatever you think of these many “debates,” they all have improved, including the formats, which I think should be carried on into future presidential primaries. Lincoln-Douglas hardly, but let’s do what fits in today’s culture.
As much as we all want to see a head on between Gingrich and Obama, I’m afraid Obama would default back on the victim ploy for his own deer-in-the-headlights version against the superior snappy Gingrich in all ways. If Obama can’t win in a debate, he’ll just want to be comforted as the guy who just needs to try harder because he’s more lovable.
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It was one of the better debates. Romney was solid as always, but Newt won. I love Bachmann and generally agree with her, but her strategy of attacking her friends is a failing one. Huntsman is the quiet guy in the corner. Perry reminds me of Alfalfa, the stupid guy who always wants to lead.
Ron Paul, who I agree with generally, really did horribly in terms of explaining his (radical) positions. He sounded completely insane. Since I know what he meant I can overlook this, but few others will who don’t know his philosophy.
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Nice to see all of the RONBOTS stopped by to vote…
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And you are?
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Well throwing out the ridiculous Paul votes, that leaves a close race between Newt, Romney and Perry. Too bad intelligent people aren’t as passionate as Ron Paul supporters.
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Ron Paul gets no respect. The media continues to not take him seriously despite his high poll numbers overall. Ron Paul had a great debate tonight and his rising poll numbers show that he is gaining alot of momentum. He has also proven to be one of the most consistent candidates.
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ClarkD52 – your calling ron paul supports unintelligent when you believe Perry can still compete. One his debate tonight didn’t help him at all. He sounded like an idiot with the Tebow reference (smart people know tebow isnt a good QB). His poll numbers have him 6 points behind Ron Paul and Mitt Romney and 16 behind Newt. I think you should check your facts before you start throwing out insults…
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I thought Gingrich sounded pretty good tonight. Thanks goodness we still have YouTube.
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Paul showed what a nut he really is last night. The wheels came off his race. We are now down to only about 3.
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I liked all of them. Ron Paul does not understand the world situation. None of them know what to do about China. I’m not sure Gingrich believes, deep in his heart, all that he’s saying.
Practically, I agree with Gary. Newt, Romney, Perry. Paul and Romney seem to have a basic number that won’t go anyweree, that is, neither up nor down. i.e. They have the faithful, but that’s all they can depend on. I wish Cain were still in.
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smart people know tebow isnt a good QB
JBeard45: I think that says more about you than about Rick Perry. Tebow isn’t a great quarterback, but he’s certainly a good one.
NWJ: I think everyone here who wants to see that video has already seen it.
Gary43: What do you mean by a ‘nut’? And the wheels coming off?
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Chas,
I don’t think you watched the debate; you must have listened in.
Megyn Kelly was far and away the clear-cut winner last night. She looked absolutely stunning.
I didn’t catch the entire debate, so I can’t pick an actual winner. Of the portion I did see, it looked like the same-old, same-old. I didn’t see anything to change my opinion on anyone.
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Scott, I watched it and you were right. Except, I didn’t think Megyn was in the race. It wouldn’t have been fair.
Not only was Megyn stunning, she was smart.
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Ron Paul again showed how dangerous he would be for this Nation if he won.
Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann were good.
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Pray for: 1.Brokered Convention; and 2. A movement to draft JIndal or Ryan.
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Jindal is a lot like Perry except his IQ is 50 points higher.
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At one point It look like Ron Paul was going to go off on Michele Bachmann and the other. As they address his out of touch views on Iran.
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I love the idea on what to do with the jduges. The problem the far left will fight against it. The reason the judges is where the far left get their powers from.
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Here is something to think about
We are told not to question Mr. Obama Faith or Mr. Romney Faith.
But will the left hold to that same standard if Perry, Santorum or Bachmann wins or on the ticket.
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I usually consider myself conservative, but the normal conservative war mongering is sickening.
How many people have to die for you people to feel safe? When we went to war in Iraq, thousands of innocent men, woman, and children were killed as “collateral damage”, along with thousands of American soldiers.
You people are absolutely sick to want to charge in and do the same thing in Iran. Are our soldiers and the innocent lives of strangers so worthless to you that you’ll let them all die on only a suggestion of aggression on the part of another country?
Ron Paul offers a peaceful solution in which no one needs to die and where the United States no longer will look like an Empire lording over its serfs around the world and he’s called crazy.
“Crazy” is respecting the value of human life, sovereign nations, and friends around the globe. “Crazy” is desiring peace, prosperity and freedom. “Crazy” is following the constitution as the writers intended.
Man, if he’s crazy I don’t want to be sane.
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Greetings to all. I have read all of the comments and I think the overall sentiment is that people want change. Not the Obama “change”, but a major revolution as I think only Ron Paul can bring. The sad thing is, if you vote for any other candidate, and they win, when you wake up the next day, the world will be just the same because they will only maintain the status quo. The people shout change yet they vote for people that will bring the same tomorrow as our yesterdays. How can you want change and vote for new puppets controlled by the same puppet master? This is ignorance. I think out of chaos comes order. What Paul says sounds crazy to the untrained mind, but he seems to be right in all of his comments, even if we do not agree.
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I also happen to think that Ron Paul is concerned with people in general. Im an African in America and most of us don’t know what conservatism is because we have nothing to conserve.
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Wow, this website cut me off as I was writing my last comment…now I know what Ron Paul feels like. Conspiracy. Why are they so afraid of him????
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Ron Paul offers a peaceful solution in which no one needs to die and where the United States no longer will look like an Empire lording over its serfs around the world and he’s called crazy.
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Please, ROn Paul is opening the door for death strick in the middle east and around the wrold.
Iran gets a nuke, it will end up in the hands of Hamas.. Ron Paul does not understand the Nature of the enemy
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Seraiah
I would like to ask how many relatives or people you are close to have been overseas fighting lately? I am the VERY proud mother of a U.S. Air Force soldier who has fought 3 tours in Iraq. Although I wish none of our men or women have to fight anywhere, I would rather have them fighting on foreign soil than OUR soil.
I am tired of self righteous people (most of whom) have no one directly connected to the military voicing their opinions. Kindly remember all of those who lost their lives in 9/11. Like I said better on their soil than ours. I have grandchildren that I would like to remain safe.
and yes, I am a conservative at heart but sometimes even the most conservative person must think in drastic, liberal ways. Go Newt, he seems to be the only candidate that can deal with both foreign and domestic affairs. How much do the other candidates know about foreign affairs and exactly what the inner workings of diplomatic affairs are. Newt has experience in both aspects of politics and both are equally important in this time.
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NWJ: I think everyone here who wants to see that video has already seen it.
Well, I saw the link numerous times before I watched it so I find it worth re-linking again and again. Hopefully some die-hard Newt-ons will take a look sometime.
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Ron Paul will be the Rodney King of foreign policy: “Can’t we all just get along?”
Unfortunately the Islamic world has repeatedly said ixnay to that or any other peace overtures.
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If we did not go into Iraq, Saddam would still be in power the rape rooms would still be open. His sons would still be killing people. He would still be threathen other nations.
Here is a little news for all those who say we lied about going into Irag. Saddams own General’s believe he has the weapons, we were looking for. When they were capture they had brand new French made Chemcail Gear to wear.
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Did anyone else cathch Ron Paul claiming that we killed a million Iraqis? Can anyone direct me to a transcript to get an exact quote?
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None of these candidates (except Paul) cares about Blacks, Latinos, or the 99% of people who are poor. Do you think Newt Gettinrich or Rick Scary gives a care about poor people? They’d spit at you if you tried to ask them a general question outside of election time. We want an accessible president. Let’s just try to see what a peaceful message would get us. Are we gonna go to war with everyone for every stupid reason? Fine, but do it with your own children and dont cry when their scarificed..after all, this is what you all want.
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What is wrong with you people? Educate yourselves on the past history and that the monster terrorist is the west. Look at what we have done to these people in other countries. It is murder. How would you like that in your backyard? Ron Paul rocked it last night. You are obviously trolls. Ron Paul is the only one who understands Foreign policy and how to be diplomatic. The war hungry power stricken mentality of people are sickening. Choose the pretty boys, or war mongers and lets see us go into a faster third world country. Unless you personally want to foot the bill. You say Ron is extreme. Do you listen to yourselves? You are crazy to support the continued death and destruction of the world. You are obviously brainwashed to contine the path of a Police State. What happened to common sense?
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None of these candidates (except Paul) cares about Blacks, Latinos, or the 99% of people who are poor.
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Not accordaning to some past comments by Ron Paul that comes across as being a bigot. The Real AJ posted the story yesterday.
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How would you like that in your backyard?
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It is happen it is call Mexican Drug Lords, Ron Paul would not deal with because they are based in Mexico.
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BY the real Aj 12.15.11 AT 3:17 PM
The Ron Paul fans here will not like this. But it does raise some questions that need to be addressed by Paul. You know Obama would run wild with this stuff if Paul should win the nomination. Best to deal with it now. I’m kinda shocked by some of this stuff, especially the black men in DC remarks. It’s downright condescending and, well, racist. You decide, does it matter?
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/15/can-ron-paul-win/
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You say Ron is extreme. Do you listen to yourselves? You are crazy to support the continued death and destruction of the world. You are obviously brainwashed to contine the path of a Police State. What happened to common sense?
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The question must be asked what has happen to Ron Paul’s common sense… He has no idea on Foreign policy and how to be diplomatic.. He is ideas are to run away from the world.
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Pastor Boy, You are a sheep. Yes it is in our backyard with the Mexican Drug Lords who have been funded by our own government. Our current administration is passing the HR1540 and S1867. So therefore, you trolls support a Police State and give up our liberty? So Ron has no common sense? Really? He wants peace. We are not the rulers of the world. Remember every great power has fallen. Ron understands foreign policy. Obviously you don’t. Educate yourself on Iran from 1950 and the CIA coup and the stealing (BP)and suppression of Iran . No wonder the whole middle east hates us. We need to leave them alone. Just because they have a different culture, does not make them bad. Look at what blowback is and definatley buy “The soundtrack to the struglle” by Lowkey. Wake up!
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For all the trolls and sheep, just keep watching MSM. It will take you really far in life.
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We need to leave them alone
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An when we pull out and they attack Isreal, what would Ron Paul do? Sit back an watch the killing? What happens when China decides it is time to expand, and start taken over Nations, what would Ron Paul do? Sit back an watch the killing?
Based on his views presented at the debates, he would do nothing…
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#32 – “Look at what we have done to these people in other countries.”
Even at great cost to ourselves:
* We have liberated several Islamic nations in recent times.
* We have protected millions of innocents from the vicious terror of Islamic jihadists.
* We have effectively promoted freedom and democracy.
* We among only a few nations to effectively stand up to Al Qaeda over the last decade.
* We have deposed vicious evil tyrants who butchered countless people and used weapons of mass destruction on their own people.
* We have brought greater prosperity to the world.
* We have fought the rising AIDS epidemic more effectively than any other.
* We specifically stayed in Iraq after deposing a vicious tyrant to protect innocent civilians, rebuild infrastructure, bring humanitarian aid, build schools and hospitals and more.
Al Qaeda and Iran did the butchering and slaughtering of innocent civilians in Iraq and we fought them there at a great sacrifice of blood and treasure. If they were not in Iraq, they would have been fomenting their radical Islamist and murderous aims in far greater numbers elsewhere, and on a wider scale too.
I could respectfully disagree with a sincere anti-war pacifist. But I cannot respect people (like Iran Paul) who lie so horrifically just to smear America and poison the well for no good reason.
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#32 – “You say Ron is extreme. Do you listen to yourselves?”
Sure, but the reason I think Iran Paul is extreme is because I listen to him too!
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#32 – “You are crazy to support the continued death and destruction of the world.”
Sir, I have generally supported the US military and our mission in the Middle East precisely BECAUSE I do not support the continued death and destruction of the world.
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I think Iran Paul generally equates the USA with Nazis. How else could he accuse us of killing a million Iraqis, who were actually our allies in a serious war against At Qaeda and the terrorist infiltrators from Iran. maybe he thinks the USA is actually Iran (who actually did most of the killing of Iraqis).
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As we are puppets for Israel and continue to support them…don’t forget the mass murders of Palenstinians. Israel has put adds in the US, telling them not to marry Americans and come to Israel. Yes what happened to the jews was horrible, but also many of my family were exterminated in genocide too. Just like today, many in the middle east but our media fails to report it. I would like to know when the term “terrorist” really starting having a meaning? Did it start when we were oil hungry and created false wars? We need to cut support to all this countries and take care of our own. China? Well we created the monster with the sheep running the show.
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As we are puppets for Israel and continue to support them…don’t forget the mass murders of Palenstinians.—
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There is no mass murdering of Palenstinians.
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There has never been a Palestine people or Nation.
The 1967 War was against Egypt, Syria, Jordon. Also just the last few weeks over 22 Missles were launched by Hamas and othe groups at Israel.
If Isreal surrender to Hamas and PLO. Guess what, it will not stop the attacks.
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If we take Ron Pauls views he is presenting. Sound very much like those in the 30’s and 40’s who said let the Nazi’s have Europe. They are not attacking us. You know the same people who said that Germany were not killing the Jewish People.
The same views of people that before and during the Civil War let the South leave. So what if the have slaves, war is not the way to go
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I must be on with a bunch of Obama supporters.
* We have effectively promoted freedom and democracy.
- Really? We don’t have freedom anymore, we have a dictator. Look at bill s1867.
* We among only a few nations to effectively stand up to Al Qaeda over the last decade.
We just funded Al Qaeda in Libya. 100,000 citizens murdered. Just for giggles read the “Green Book”
* We have deposed vicious evil tyrants who butchered countless people and used weapons of mass destruction on their own people.
-And this country has not done the same?
-Don’t forget we supported them at different times for some covert sinister way to eventually get what the government wanted from them. Then took them down when they realized they were being ripped off.
So the famous words, “we went, we saw, he died.” That is great diplomacy isn’t it.
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I must be on with a bunch of Obama supporters.
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The only different between Ron Paul’s view and Mr. Obama’s is one is from the extreme right (Ron Paul) the other is the extreme left (Mr. Obama) but are wrong.
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Ron Paul and Mr. Obama were against us going into Iraq. They both have blamed the United States for the deaths in Iraq.
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Ron Paul makes the most sense on foreign policy. He may find he needs to engage the world a little more than he currently believes, but in general everyone else on the stage wants to go to war (over a drone no less) and rule the world. I like the welfare (Democrats) and warfare (Republicans) statement he made.
I’d like to see a Newt vs. Ron debate. Those seem to be the only two candidates that know any history.
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“There is no mass murdering of Palenstinians”
Really, watch tweetgrid. Many reports of missles fired from Israel.
There is no point even arguing with you. What comes around goes around.
All I want is peace and my children to have a future. I don’t support murder of any human being for the greediness of men playing who has the biggest marble.
Keep watching main stream media, it really makes you sound intelligent. Put yourselves in someone elses shoes. You might change your view and open up your eyes.
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PASTOR TROY
Iraq was a bs war to caused deaths of my fellow brothers and sisters for no good reason. Just as one poster said “you are a sheep”. Its absolutley amazing how ignorant folks are. You want war sign yourself and your families up to “protect our freedoms” which is a bs case, more like “protect our intrests”. Iran is no Iraq and it is no Afghanistan, you will truly see war. Irsael has said time and time again that it can defend itself!! That they do not need our soldiers OR our help! But you prefer to follow then gain your own knoledge.
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“There is no mass murdering of Palenstinians”
Really, watch tweetgrid. Many reports of missles fired from Israel.
There is no point even arguing with you. What comes around goes around.
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The facts are on my side here not yours.
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All I want is peace and my children to have a future. I don’t support murder of any human being for the greediness of men playing who has the biggest marble.
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Guess what until the Return of Christ. There will not no peace.
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Iraq was a bs war to caused deaths of my fellow brothers and sisters for no good reason. Just as one poster said “you are a sheep”. Its absolutley amazing how ignorant folks are.
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Iraw was not a bs war , it removed a very very evil man from power. We did not go to war to caused deaths of MY fellow brothers and sisters.
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Iran Paul
I’m astounded at the juvenility, Joel Mark. It’s below you. :-/
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wow if you really gave a anything about removing “evil men from power” then where was your concern over North Korea or countless African Nations where worse unspeakable crimes are being commited? You bought the lie they gave you after they were caught in their orignal lie. Yes an honarable war where over 4000 Americans died for nothing and contractors were paid 3-4 times the amount for work that soldiers do. Blind.
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There is no mass murdering of Palenstinians”
Really, watch tweetgrid. Many reports of missles fired from Israel.
There is no point even arguing with you. What comes around goes around.
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“The facts are on my side here not yours.”
Pastor Roy,
I am starting to think you are a paid troll. You are far from reality of the American people’s values. Everyone I know supports Ron Paul. The polls reflect that too. So I think the facts are on my side and not yours.
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I left the church because of my evangelical pastor’s pro-war stance.
Blessed are the peacemakers. Do good them that hate you. Do not repay evil with evil. Bless those who curse you. Do not repay evil with evil. Ron Paul’s platform. Ron Paul’s witness.
I can’t be pro-life and at the same time be pro-torture, pro-assassinations, pro-war, and pro-drone attacks. The God of Israel does not need the manipulators at the GOP Politburo to protect His people.
The Israel and Muslim arguments are just a ploy to benefit the war profiteers and all the other hidden agendas that we know nothing about. Why deny my faith and climb in bed with those consumed by greed and graft? As Goering said, no matter how educated and sophisticated the people, tell them we are at war and they will accept anything. Nobody wants to be a traitor to the Fatherland. (War is the health of the state.)
Besides, where is the morality in mortgaging the future of our children and grandchildren with $15 trillion of debt? And now the pro-lifers are cheer leading for another trillion dollar war.
Jon Stewart’s says: Christians are those who believe life starts at conception, but end at our borders. Bachmann “weeps” about infanticide, but has no heart for the 250,000 mothers who have lost sons and daughters, husbands and fathers since the start of the Iraq war. But that’s not enough for her. Let take on another war, says the fiscal conservative and pro-lifer. That war will be a bridge too far. Iran has staunch allies in Russia and China.
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Reading the posts of Pastor Roy above is exactly the reason why I left the church after forty years.
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You are far from reality of the American people’s values. Everyone I know supports Ron Paul. The polls reflect that too. So I think the facts are on my side and not yours.
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Wow, Since when is running away from our enemies and putting our head in the sand part of the American people’s values?
An since Ron Paul is losing in ever polls how is the facts on your side?
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Actually Pastor Roy, that was a speculation that it came from Paul. There was no proof and it was actually denied by Paul and even people who know Paul admitted that that’s not even in his character to say something racist like that. But I can see how in today’s society we often take inconclusive evidence as a truth..just like with the weapons of mass destruction, just like in law (guilty until proven innocent), and just like in history where people show the Egyptians as white and as pagans. People clearly dont have a strong understanding of MANY things yet these so-called experts are taking assumptions and using that as proof. If that’s good enough for you than that’s fine, but for something as serious as me allowing my child or risking my life force for a war that may not even be justified, im sorry, but I need more “proof,” not assumptions by a trigger happy empire.
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Pator ROY:TROLL
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No one ever wants to go War. No Christain wants to see their Nation go to War. But we know there is a time and place were you can not avoid going to war. Iraq and Afag were right..
An I hate to break the Anti-War people views. Blessed are the peacemakers. is not about stopping wars. It is about bring the Gospel into to someone life.
Do good them that hate you. Do not repay evil with evil. Bless those who curse you. Do not repay evil with evil. — Those passage are address a person respond to an attack not a Nations repsonds to being attacked.
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Pator ROY:TROLL
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Since I have been on this site for years. I am not a troll, but since you and the other Ron Paul that have just showed up. Are the trolls.
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“Sir, I have generally supported the US military and our mission in the Middle East precisely BECAUSE I do not support the continued death and destruction of the world”. Yet you do so by promoting more war. When will you learn that only peace will cure war, not instigating? But here’s the double standard, case and point, if I mentioned Malcolm X, you all would say he’s violent even though he has never been involved in anything violent. Then you’ll promote Dr. King because he preached nonviolence! Yet all you do is talk WAR! Hypocrites! Ron Paul is not saying he wont defend this country dummies, your selective hearing kicked out on the part where he said that he would first get a declaration of war just like our forefathers…you know, the ones who fought a war so we could be independent? How quickly you all forget.
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61. BY Sleuth51 12.16.11 AT 2:23 PM
Reading the posts of Pastor Roy above is exactly the reason why I left the church after forty years.
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62. BY Pastor Roy 12.16.11 AT 2:24 PM
You are far from reality of the American people’s values. Everyone I know supports Ron Paul. The polls reflect that too. So I think the facts are on my side and not yours.
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Wow, Since when is running away from our enemies and putting our head in the sand part of the American people’s values?
An since Ron Paul is losing in ever polls how is the facts on your side?
Thank you Sleuth! I am absolutely flabbergasted by Pastor Roy’s ridiculous comments. And if this guy is an actual pastor of a who know’s what kind of church, there are more of these running around.
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Pastor Roy, what do you care about facts being on anyone’s side, you whited sepulcher.
There were no WMD’s in Iraq. There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq. Now deal with these facts and count the bodies while you are at it (You can count the bodies at Just Foreign Policy’s website.)
But there is oil in Iraq. And the likes of you have no conscience to feign a pro-life posture and then cheer lead the annihilation of hundreds of thousands of innocent people (if not millions once the Religious Right is done with Iran), so that George Bush and his business cronies could get their hands on the oil reserves in Iraq.
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Sleuth51, if you are still open to Christianity, may I suggest a look at the Eastern Orthodox Church? We converted to Orthodoxy two years ago now, and it was a breath of fresh air in many of these regards, most notably that while many IN the Orthodox church have definite opinions regarding political matters (we attend church with our local state house representative, so I hear the opinions discussed much! And obviously have opinions of my own {cough}RonPaul{cough}), the church itself definitely has a “eyes on your own plate” approach to the faith. It’s much more concerned with repentance and communion with God, than with political affairs and issues.
A priest at a recent retreat that I attended quoted St. John Chrysostom on the topic of LOVE. Chrystostom said:
If [the command of love] were duly observed, there would be neither slave nor free, neither ruler nor ruled, neither rich nor poor, neither small nor great; nor would any devil then ever have been known: I say not, Satan only, but whatever other such spirit there be, nay, rather were there a hundred or ten thousand such, they would have no power, while love existed. For sooner would grass endure the application of fire than the devil the flame of love. She is stronger than any wall, she is firmer than any adamant; or if you can name any material stronger than this the firmness of love transcends them all. Her, neither wealth nor poverty overcomes: nay, rather there would be no poverty, no unbounded wealth, if there were love, but the good parts only from each estate. For from the one we should reap its abundance, and from the other its freedom from care: and should neither have to undergo the anxieties of riches, nor the dread of poverty.
(The totality of his teachings on 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 are here.)
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Pastor Roy, seeing I called you a whited sepulcher, and meant it, let me not do so under an assumed name. My name is Albert Meyer and I live in Plano, TX.
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but for something as serious as me allowing my child or risking my life force for a war that may not even be justified, im sorry, but I need more “proof,” not assumptions by a trigger happy empire.
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First we are not and never have been an empire. Those who claim that we all. Have a perverted views on our Nation and our Histroy.
Second soldier do not have the right to asked for “proof” before going to war. We get the orders we go. I spent 8 year in the Army never once did I question my order.
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NOPM wrote; “…but in general everyone else on the stage wants to go to war (over a drone no less) and rule the world.”
That’s a falsehood, NOPM. You are not listening but you are emoting. No one on that stage wants war, but most of them are awake enough to realize that Iran is ALREADY at war with us and they are willing to realistically address that sad reality.
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Don’t Bibletard this. Realize religion basically has been one of the causes of war. We need to go all over the world preaching Christianity and teach our way. Leave them alone. Let people live there lives. It is money, greed, and church cults (who want their 10%)
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#51 – “I like the welfare (Democrats) and warfare (Republicans) statement he made.”
It was a cliche’, NOPM. if fails to address the real problems at hand but it appeals to people who do not know what is really going on but still are angry over the state of affairs on the surface. It is dangerous to approach foreign policy armed only with unserious simplistic cliche’s.
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There were no WMD’s in Iraq. -First Saddam Generals believed they had WMD. We were caught them, they had brand new chemical gear sold to Iraq by the French.
There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq. – Secound, Al Qaeda was in Iraq, where did you thing those who were wounded on the battle field went to. The leader of Al Qaeda Iraq was there before we got there.
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“Do good them that hate you. Do not repay evil with evil. Bless those who curse you. Do not repay evil with evil. — Those passage are address a person respond to an attack not a Nations repsonds to being attacked”.
Where’s your proof to defend that statement sir? If you were truly intelligent, which im not saying that you are or arent, but then you would understand that it’s not a whole nation that goes to war, but the ONE general who commands the army. But to put another spin on it, it can all be considered the same thing because just like how the “one person”, our president, can believe in going to war, it will engulf the whole nation. You are proof of how one idealogy, rather good or bad, can spread from one “person” to a whole nation.
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NW Juliana, funny that you should mention the Orthodox Church. My wife met an Orthodox minister yesterday at a school function. I have no problem with my faith, I just can’t stand this hypocrisy. But it is no different from the days of Christ when He almost incessantly railed against the clergy of His day. Don’t ever expect to hear a sermon on this, other than a cursory reference but with no personal application. There are now no Christians left in Iraq. Christians are now more intensely persecuted in places like Egypt, Indonesia and the like. Ask these Christians whether they want the US to invade Muslim countries.
There are apparently 300,000 Jews living and worshiping in their synagogues in Iran. Today, Iran’s Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. What is Bachmann talking about, bending over backwards to win the Jewish vote?
There are at least 600 churches in Iran. Great go and bomb them.
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Don’t Bibletard this.
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Sorry, I was not one that started using God’s Word.. Trust me asked one here if I feel that God is leadig me post His Word. I will in a heart beat.
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Pastor Roy,
One more thing, are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church?
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This debate is not about God’s Word. It is about one man wanting to run away from the world and put his head in the sand. Hope that it will stop people from hating us,.
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Y sovereign1 12.16.11 AT 2:54 PM
“Do good them that hate you. Do not repay evil with evil. Bless those who curse you. Do not repay evil with evil. — Those passage are address a person respond to an attack not a Nations repsonds to being attacked”.
Sovereign, which country attacked us? Iraq? Iraq attacked us? We invaded and caused the deaths of 1.4 million Iraqis because they attacked us? Which city did they attack? I don’t have a TV, so I could have missed it. If we weren’t attacked, the deaths of the innocent are on our heads and as Christians we should oppose such wanton loss of life, more so if we parade our pro-life stance.
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sovereign1 – The Word of God is my proof.
Thur out the OT God called His people to war. The NT never say it is wrong to go to War. Time and time again Jesus when he was dealing with the Roman Soldiers. He has asked a simple thing be justy in what they are doing. He never told them that being a Roman Soldier is wrong.
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Roy, you know you’re not accurately portraying Ron Paul’s position. Hopefully some day you’ll stop being dishonest in your posts.
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“Don’t Bibletard this. Realize religion basically has been one of the causes of war. We need to go all over the world preaching Christianity and teach our way. Leave them alone. Let people live there lives. It is money, greed, and church cults (who want their 10%”
Preach! Everyone knows the most viscious wars were fought over religion. Religion has always been spread with the sword especially once it became an orthodoxy, or a state sanctioned religion. Then it became heresy to believe in anything other then what the state has set up for you. As Malcolm X would say, “Leave your religions in your closet”.
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Pastor Roy,
The reason I asked that question, is because they believe in the harm and death of our servicemen and women… You appearantly condone that and wish harm on the human race.
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Sovereign, which country attacked us? Iraq? Iraq attacked us? We invaded and caused the deaths of 1.4 million Iraqis because they attacked us? Which city did they attack? I don’t have a TV, so I could have missed it. If we weren’t attacked, the deaths of the innocent are on our heads and as Christians we should oppose such wanton loss of life, more so if we parade our pro-life stance.
Your so right. No country actually attacked us, but it’s us being paranoid attacking them…like always. America is too dam nosey.
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I feel sorry for all you lost souls!Do you people really know whats going on in this world? You think we are some great liberator and we are fighting alCIAda! Who do think created al C I A da ? who was fighting in Lybia? why is their flag dflying there? Why do think all these talking heads are slamming Ron? Quick search for you lost souls! Military industrial complex ! which president warned us about it? Search USS Liberty and tell me how you feel now!
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I wonder why Ron Paul has more military support then all others combined?
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Sleuth51, interesting ~ I have found Orthodox priests to be some of the nicest people. Hopefully your wife enjoyed her visit the priest she met.
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SLEUTH51,
President Bush went to great lengths to avoid war in Iraq and finally used force as a last resort. He gave Saddam eleven long months to comply with reasonable expectations from the international community, before leading a 30 nation coalition to depose him as a last resort. This gave Saddam plenty of time to rant and posture and possibly hide or remove WMD stockpiles. But Saddam treated all the UN Resolutions as toilet paper and defied the treaty terms he signed after the Kuwait War. He shot at US planes and the entire international community believed he still had WMD (we still don’t know for sure if he did or did not but sto9ckpiles were not found).
The international community was not pro-war, SLEUTH51, but they had to stand by the Resolutions and Saddam’s previous surrender terms or else no one in the world would respect anything we do and all resolutions would be worthless. Plus he was a brutal mass-murdering tyrant who supported terrorism covertly. The international comunity understood that we could not afford having such a rouge state in the middle of the Middle East.
It is unfair to judge others as pro-war just because they realize that serious threats and injustice have exceeded the point of toleration. Plus, Iran is already at war with us and that cannot be ignored.
SLEUTH51, i don’t know but I suspect you may have misjudged your pastor to accuse him of being “pro-war.” Perhaps you should have disagreed with him more honorably.
Being pro-life can lead us to stand up for the victims of terrorism and tyranical aggression (remember Kuwait?).
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“Thur out the OT God called His people to war. The NT never say it is wrong to go to War. Time and time again Jesus when he was dealing with the Roman Soldiers. He has asked a simple thing be justy in what they are doing. He never told them that being a Roman Soldier is wrong.”
We all have opposing views and can debate all night. But the point is, I WANT PEACE. Im so tired of bloodshed and division. What’s wrong with at least trying what Ron Paul says? If he’s wrong, then we’ll be attcked which will cause us and our allies (what’s left of them anyway) to retalliate. But what if he’s right? What if we attack them and cause them to retalliate, or murder innocent people? What if he’s right and we ignore them and focus on making our monetary system better without being attacked? I always think that peace is the first option unless absolutely provoked. Do you tell your children to fight every one that they think doesnt like them? Its the same concept people. Your family is your nation. The same principles apply. Let’s think in that context and apply it to the whole nation. Let us now promote peace. 2012 IS A TIME OF PEACE AND UNITY.
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Joel Mark – have a great day need to get some work done… I will check in later
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NW Juliana Roy, you know you’re not accurately portraying Ron Paul’s position. Hopefully some day you’ll stop being dishonest in your posts
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Not based on his views from the debates I am being honest in my posts.
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SLEUTH51 wrote; “As Goering said, no matter how educated and sophisticated the people, tell them we are at war and they will accept anything.”
It sounds like you have drunk the poisonous Iran Paul koolaid. We are not nazis. It is dishonest, vicious and evil for you to suggest that Goering’s approach has anything to do with our foreign policy with regard to the Islaist threats in the world and in the Middle East. Why do you hate us so much?
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“Jon Stewart’s says: Christians are those who believe life starts at conception, but end at our borders.”
This is a vile and hateful misrepresentation of Christians or ANYONE who is pro-life. What makes so America’s so incredibly ignorant so as to fall for such evil and dishonest rhetoric.
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This is about christian jihadism as practiced and preached by Baptist pastors. They have become like their enemies. They speak ever so eloquently about the life in the womb (as long as the womb is the US and preferably not of a Muslim mother). As for the mothers and children on the streets of Baghdad and Tehran blown to or about to be blown to smithereens as a consequence of a US invasion (under the lies of WMD and a phony war against terror in an effort to “annex” “our” oil reserves), they have no conscience.
They read the Reader’s Digest Abridged Version of the Bible and added two new commandments: Thou shalt not vote for a Mormon. Thou shalt not oppose neo-con wars. Two commandments are suspended until after the election: Thou shalt not commit adultery (unless the accusations are is still current and the required period of confession has not run its course) and Thou shalt not bear false witness.
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Was that before or after we told saddam he can take Kuwait? and those lies of babies being killed in their incubators! Get a grip on reality! The president does not run our military international bankers doe! Who wins all wars? The bankers that fund them!
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Repeat with corrections: What makes some America’s so incredibly ignorant so as to fall for such evil and dishonest rhetoric?
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100.
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Wow, first vote in this poll and 100, too. Must mean something.
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Pastor Roy, Joel Mark, NW Juliana
You three are paid trolls. Do you understand what you are saying? And for the sake of my chilren, I pray for you. And I am not even religious.
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#60 – “Bachmann ‘weeps’ about infanticide, but has no heart for the 250,000 mothers who have lost sons and daughters, husbands and fathers since the start of the Iraq war.”
What a wretched thing to write. Such dishonest rhetoric is evil and demonic.
Relevant quote
* “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” Joseph Welch posed this question to Joseph McCarthy at a pivotal point in the Army-McCarthy hearings. Welch marked what some see as the beginning of the end for McCarthyism.
Unfortunately, indecent McCarthyism is making a come-back when we see decent principled people like Bush, Bachmann and others smeared so viciously.
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BY Joel Mark 12.16.11 AT 3:17 PM
“Jon Stewart’s says: Christians are those who believe life starts at conception, but end at our borders.”
This is a vile and hateful misrepresentation of Christians or ANYONE who is pro-life. What makes so America’s so incredibly ignorant so as to fall for such evil and dishonest rhetoric.
Joel Mark, on what planet are you living? Jon Stewart happens to think that as much as Christians value the life in the womb, so does he, as a Jew, value the lives of the mothers and children on the streets of Baghdad and Teheran.
He finds it a massive contradiction, as do I, that those who feign to be pro-life, have no compunction to invade a country that has not attacked us and cause the deaths of 1.4 million people (Just Foreign Policy website).
If you can’t see the hypocrisy, you have been listening to talk radio for far too long.
If you had listened to the debates with the ear of an unbeliever you would have been shocked that the words “kill, bomb, assassinate, take out, torture” came from the lips of those who paraded their pro-life credentials. People like Jon Stewart aren’t fooled. Time to turn of talk radio and think for yourself.
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CommonSense 12.16.11 AT 2:56 PM
Pastor Roy,
One more thing, are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church?
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They are not Chistians…. So take your hate an go troll some where else. good bad.
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BY Pastor Roy 12.16.11 AT 3:30 PM
CommonSense 12.16.11 AT 2:56 PM
Pastor Roy,
One more thing, are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church?
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They are not Chistians…. So take your hate an go troll some where else. good bad.
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Actually that is why I want to know if you are a member. You hate, want harm and you are a troll.
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SLEUTH51 falsely wrote at #69; “There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq.”
Dead wrong. No one with any credibility denies that Al Qaeda was in Iraq. We caught many operatives there and it is undeniable among sane people. Zarqawi and his minions were there even before we deposed Saddam. More came in to sew destruction, murder and chaos after we deposed Saddam.
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Two things.
1. sovereign1 “Actually Pastor Roy, that was a speculation that it came from Paul. There was no proof and it was actually denied by Paul and even people who know Paul admitted that that’s not even in his character to say something racist like that.”
Perhaps you should have taken the time to read the link. You would have read this. “Update II: We’re already starting to see the “Paul didn’t write his own newsletter” response in the comments. As Matt Welch notes, he actually acknowledged writing them in 1996, before they became a big liability, but even if he didn’t write them himself, he published them under his own byline, and made a profit on them. As for them being 20 years old, well, you judge whether people will dismiss them as old news when Team Obama starts rolling out a Ron Paul Quote of the Day from the convention to the election.”
One way or the other, Paul owns these remarks. It was him who published them, and profitted from them. Plus, when they weren’t a big issue, he did acknowledge writing them. Deal with it. This is your guy.
2. The treatment of Roy and others who disagree with Paul is the reason I can’t support him. You people are a pathetic lot. Roy has been around a long time. The Paulbots posting here of course don’t know this, because they only showed up because they love to spam anything Paul related with their garbage. If they visited regularly they would know how their charactazation of Roy and his being a paid troll are juvenile lies, easily seen by anyone who actually knows Roy. You sound as crazy as your leader. You are an unreasonable lot, who attack anyone who won’t ride the crazy train with you. You people think you help Paul with this? Really? All you do is alienate anyone who may be sitting on the fence with regard to Paul. You can tell alot about a man by who his friends and supporters are. From what I see, he is undeserving of even being considered when clowns like you are the type of people he might appoint to positions of authority. You people are your own worst enemies, but your delusion doesn’t allow you to see it. It’s quite pathetic.
The Paulbots can now resume their spamming, I’m done. And so is Paul with supporters like you. He doesn’t stand a chance, and shouldn’t, in a non-crazy society.
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SLEUTH51,
You miss the point. Jon Stewart’s vile comment misrepresents the view of the vast majority of Christians. We value the life in the womb AND we value the lives of the mothers and children on the streets of Baghdad and Teheran. That why we supported our efforts to liberate them from a brutal and murderous terror-supporting tyrant, stood up to protect them from Al Qaeda and Iranian infiltrators, re-built their infra-structure, their schools and their hospitals. We take terrorist jihadism seriously and that is pro-life.
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Al Qaeda
Let’s see, they were our (created) funded enemy, then we funded them again and gave them arms to disrupt and murder Lybians. What happened in Lybia, was only the best interest THPTB. Hmmm…I wonder who they could be. And why take over such a strategic location.
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If Iran attacked Israel, Iran would be slaughtered, just like what happened every time in the past when some nation tried. Israel can protect itself quite well, and could protect itself better if we stopped sending 4 times as much aid to their enemies that we give to Israel.
Also, no, Israel is not launching missiles on Palestinians. Many have been launched from Gaza and the West Bank at Israel’s territory, and Hamas even set off one of their own missiles in the Gaza strip to start the Second Infatada. There will be peace between the Israeli’s and the Arabs in Israel when they learn to live side by side with each other in peace. The Israelites did that with several Canaanite peoples 3000 years ago, and this can certainly happen again with fellow decendents of Abraham. The only thing that can bring peace is the Gospel, which is being preached throughout the Middle East and is spreading faster than it has in 1400 years, which is why I expect more crackdowns on Christians in the Middle East as the powers that be foolishly try to restrain the spread.
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Iran Paul said at the debate; “We don’t need another war.”
He is missing the relevant undeniable reality that Iran is already fully at war with us and viciously killing our people and military and has been for years. Life is too short for pretense. They are at war with us already, like it or not.
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Joel Mark, regime change in Iraq was on the Bush agenda long before 9/11. 9/11 acted as the catalyst to invade Iraq. All that stuff you write about the United Nations, giving Saddam an opportunity, etc, are just smoke and mirrors to con the likes of you.
Bush wanted a compliant leader in Iraq, who would sell us oil, use our oil services companies in Iraq and then apply the petro dollars to buy our debt; just like the Saudis. Saddam was no push over, so he had to go, regardless of the loss of life.
So, one man Saddam is gone. On the other hand of the scale, you have 8,500 US casualties, 35,000 wounded, 1.4 dead Iraqis and who knows how many maimed, 2 million refugees who had to live in temporary shelters for 8 years or more (think of the little children losing out on life). The war added $1 to $2 trillion to our debt.
That was the price that Bush paid for his hair brain plan to get rid of Saddam. Never has one man’s removal caused so much grief and damage.
Today’s Financial Times tells us that Turkey, Iran (!?), China (our banker), South Korea (we defend them, but they don’t help us fight our wars) and Arab states are walking off with the economic spoils: Iraqi’s Economic Spoils go to Nations that Shunned War. What did all these people die for? Died in a war that was cheered on by pro-life Christian jihadists; and now they are asking for an Iran replay.
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No country has shed more blood on behalf of Muslims in recent years than has America. No nation has had so much power and used it for so much good for others as has America.
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Lucky you NW JULIANA!
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ROM116 wrote; “If Iran attacked Israel, Iran would be slaughtered, just like what happened every time in the past when some nation tried.”
Iran has specifically threatened to wipe Israel off the map. They want Israel exterminated. Their leaders approach this with a suicidal mentality. If Iran attacked Israel, it would be to wipe them off the map.
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BY Joel Mark 12.16.11 AT 3:49 PM
No country has shed more blood on behalf of Muslims in recent years than has America. No nation has had so much power and used it for so much good for others as has America.
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So therefore, all has been shed in the name of greed, money and oil. Our lost soldiers and many murdered Muslims. All thanks to western powers being there in humanitarin efforts? Let’s give them an around of applause. All for bs wars.
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SLEUTH51,
Regime change in Iraq was ACTUALLY on the CLINTON agenda long before 9/11 and long before Bush. President Bush went through all the reasonable channels before allying with a 30-nation coalition to use force against Iraq. He gave Saddam 112 months to comply with international demands.
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CommonSense
Pastor Roy,
One more thing, are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church?
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They are not Chistians…. So take your hate an go troll some where else. good bad.
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Actually that is why I want to know if you are a member. You hate, want harm and you are a troll.
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I am not part of that hate church. The person who that have been very hatful is yuo. The person here that is open this Nation to harm is your views. An The troll is you.
I have to leave. now
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Nothing ever uttered by an America politician is more vile than Iran Paul’s claim that we killed a million Iraqis. NOTHING, EVER!
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John Mark, McCarthyism took away the civil liberties of Americans, in the same way that the current Patriot Act, Indefinite Detention Act, assassinations, torture etc, are taking away our civil liberties. You have the wrong end of the stick.
As to Bachmann: for unbelievers it is incongruous that a so-called pro-life Christian can rail against infanticide, but at the same time cheer lead for more wars, more bombing, more killing, more blood and guts. Iran has done us no harm. Christians and Jews live and worship in Iran. Oh, it is to protect Israel, that military minnow with 300 nukes? Why did Israel not help us out in the Iraq war? The United Kingdom did. Will Israel help us to bomb Iran? Is the God of Israel incapable of protecting Israel. Seems like it.
The war profiteers are the only ones benefiting from these wars. They in turn reward those in Congress who cheer lead for them. Wake up my friend. You and your fellow Christians are stooges of the military industrial complex. Only Ron Paul has the courage and integrity to stand up against them, even if it means the ridicule of his own party. He is the true pro-life candidate, all life, the 4,000 babies in the womb that he deliver and all others, no matter where in the world they eke out a living.
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Paid troll? {Chuckles, shaking head} I have NO idea where you got that idea from. Hold on, I’ll ask some of my kids sitting around me as we finish up home schooling, so we can get ready to go Christmas caroling at a state home for mentally impaired adults tonight, if they’ve seen me receive money for trolling on boards. Um, no!
I have 2-3 forum type boards that I post on, and I certainly don’t “troll” on them. How long have you been posting here, Commonsense? I think it’s be 5-6 years for me.
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…or the 99% of people who are poor.
Someone is living on Fantasy Island…
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Joel Mark, go the website Just Foreign Policy. They put the deaths attributable to the US invasion at 1.4 million, 1.4 million souls who would still have been alive to day. How can you find that offensive? Is the truth too much to bear?
Madeline Albright admitted that the 500,000 children who died as a result of the sanctions we placed on Iraq were, in her words, “worth it.”
You want to take, 500,00o from the 1.4 million, then you are 900,000 left. You don’t like that number, then half it and you get 450,000. You won’t tolerate 450,000 abortions, but 450,000 war casualties in a country that did us no harm is just fine; and you long for a repeat performance in Iran?
Stop listening to Sean Hannity. He is part of the establishment. he uses you as his stooge.
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Joel Mark, of course you caught Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq. When we invaded they swarmed to Iraq. What an opportunity. Saddam had to time for Al Qaeda. The CIA and other admit that there was no Al Queda in Iraq prior to the invasion. Invasions fuels insurgencies. You got to think for yourself, my man.
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Pastor Troll,
“Only Ron Paul has the courage and integrity to stand up against them, even if it means the ridicule of his own party. He is the true pro-life candidate, all life, the 4,000 babies in the womb that he deliver and all others, no matter where in the world they eke out a living.”
-Sleuth
Thank you Sleuth
Just a little fact, Ron Paul is still way ahead in the polls. So the facts are on my side.
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The million plus number is based on household surveys conducted in Iraq.
Could be as off as the 100k presented by the media outlets.
I could care less the exact number either.
I don’t even mind helping getting rid of a tyrant like Saddam…but why’d we need an army to do that?
Lousy waste of money and efficiency.
Oh…it’s because we wanted to build more and more bases in a foreign country
Guess who is next? Iran!
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#57 – NW JULIANA wrote; “['Iran Paul'] I’m astounded at the juvenility, Joel Mark. It’s below you.”
No apology, my friend. I can respectfully disagree with a sincerel anti-war pacifist. But it was a despicable lie to claim that America killed a million Iraqis. He has earned the title “Iran Paul” in my eyes and I will give him what he deserves and earned.
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If China invades the US and Mexicans form gangs of bandits and come across the border to attack the Chinese, you won’t call the Mexicans terrorists would you? The anti-Iranian rulers in Iraq (Saddam, a good friend of Rumsfeld) were pushed out and now the country is ruled by pro-Iranian rulers. Iranians are just helping their fellow Muslims in Iraq, but the Republicans like to make it look as though the Iranians are evil to do that. You go an invade a country, others will take up arms against you. We are the aggressors, cheered on by the pro-life Christians.
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Joel Mark, that’s your right of course, but I still find it juvenile. While I don’t agree with you on much politically or theologically, I at least have respected you as a person and in the way you’ve presented yourself in the past. You seem to be slipping away from polite discourse.
Commonsense, please be respectful and call posters by their names. You can call him Roy if you’re comfortable not calling him Pastor, but leave the “troll” out of it. Roy has been posting here for years and is not a troll; he as opinions and stands that I don’t agree with, but it’s possible to still be respectful even with people you don’t agree with.
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“One way or the other, Paul owns these remarks. It was him who published them, and profitted from them. Plus, when they weren’t a big issue, he did acknowledge writing them. Deal with it. This is your guy”
Ok, i’ll deal with that. Let’s say it is true, but who has done more damage, Paul’s so-called racist remarks or all the other dems and republicans sending our troops into made-up wars? I think your right about the leader and the follower comment, but in that respect you and your leader are no different because we are all guilty of name calling, except for maybe NW JULIANA. We are all ignorant to some extent. But Newt Gettinrich, Rick Scary, and Hit Onme have done much more harm by promoting the war then any comment by Paul. Actions hurt more my friend…That’s the only dirt you all have…pretty pathetic. How much can you bring it up before it gets played out..
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“You miss the point. Jon Stewart’s vile comment misrepresents the view of the vast majority of Christians. We value the life in the womb AND we value the lives of the mothers and children on the streets of Baghdad and Teheran. That why we supported our efforts to liberate them from a brutal and murderous terror-supporting tyrant, stood up to protect them from Al Qaeda and Iranian infiltrators, re-built their infra-structure, their schools and their hospitals. We take terrorist jihadism seriously and that is pro-life.”
Joel Mark this is the biggest lot of war propaganda that you have been brainwashed by Sean Hannity. Why should we go around the world and liberate nations at great loss of life and treasure.
Why not start with Zimbabwe in the south of Africa and work your way, up if “brutal, murderous tyrants” are truly your concern. There’s no oil in those countries, so why bother.
Shame on the church for being conned like this. There is nothing more brutal than to invade a country that has not attacked you and thereby caused the death and maiming of millions.
There are terrorist in Indonesia, Spain, Sri Lanka, all over the world. You borrowed every penny you spent in Iraq, “chasing terrorists.” If we invaded Egypt, Al Queda would have flocked to Egypt. How stupid is that?
Have you seen our infrastructure lately? Your neo-con friends have bankrupted us with their nation building wars. Ron Paul wants to put an end to this, but Christians want more. The financial cost alone makes it the dumbest idea ever floated. The Iraqis and Iranians are now allies.
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NW Juliana,
Respectful? Let’s be respectful of human rights. If he has been posting here for years, is quite scary as he far from reality and hope he has no followers.
Good Bye.
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BY Joel Mark 12.16.11 AT 3:49 PM
No country has shed more blood on behalf of Muslims in recent years than has America. No nation has had so much power and used it for so much good for others as has America.”
That’s what Sean Hannity said last night after Ron Paul destroyed him. Clutching a straw. the illiterates in the Muslim community of which there are too many to count have no idea that US blood was spilled for them. No idea. It is an inane argument. And if we did spill our blood and treasure for them, you have to ask why? Why would we imperil our safety, both militarily and financially (we are flat out broke) for the Muslim world? Is that something to brag about? I don’t understand the inconsistency; actually downright stupidity. Sean’s conscience is getting the better of him when confronted by a man of Paul’s integrity.
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“He is missing the relevant undeniable reality that Iran is already fully at war with us and viciously killing our people and military and has been for years. Life is too short for pretense. They are at war with us already, like it or not.”
So what if we are?
Who wears the big boy pants, JM? Do we lay down our sword to end the fighting, or do we keep bombing the puny countries?
Declare peace. Let them have their nuclear energy with the warning we have Israel’s back should they request our aid. Get OUT of their affairs.
Let the Muslims do what they do best, fight among themselves.
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I also think and hope Roy’s version of Christianity is far from the reality for most, as I don’t agree with the way he interprets Scripture and what it means for our lives, but there’s no reason for name calling and emotional, mean statements back. Please pray for me, for Roy, for us all as you be — “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us all. May we all become united to you and be saved.”
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Pray …. for us all as you leave, not as you be.
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One thing to remember.
There are sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves.
Just take care of your families, and don’t bother mine.
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“Iran has specifically threatened to wipe Israel off the map. They want Israel exterminated. Their leaders approach this with a suicidal mentality. If Iran attacked Israel, it would be to wipe them off the map.”
War propaganda. Besides Israel can protect itself and they have God on their side. I’d take God over Bachmann any day.
Jews and Christians live happily in Iran, no matter what their leaders say to rile folks like you. they love it when US leaders malign them. I lived in a country against which the US imposed sanctions. Almost overnight the president’s ratings were boosted. The locals rallied behind him. He thrives on his name being mentioned in US presidential debates.
QUESTIONS: Let’s assume all this war propaganda has a scintilla of truth in it. How much will it cost to fight a war against Iran? How long will it take? Where will you get the money from. We have already mortgaged the future of our children and grandchildren to the tune of $15 trillion and counting.
What happens if Russia and China, Iran’s staunch allies comes to Iran’s defense? Do we get a nuclear war, or do we turn tail?
You haven’t answered my question, if this all to protect Israel, why didn’t Israel join us and the NATO forces in the Iraq war? Will Israel provide men and material if we start a war against Iran? If not why not? I’ve got you over a barrel with these questions. I don’t expect rational answers.
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“Declare peace. Let them have their nuclear energy with the warning we have Israel’s back should they request our aid. Get OUT of their affairs”
I agree Thorn. Why must we always provoke? Because to have a demon-cracy you have to have a constant war…war on terror, war on drugs, war on piles of crap, etc. This is where the president gets his emergency war powers to declare martial law. This is also when liberties are taken away under the disquise of liberty. We can all disagree on the war, but that’s not the only issue. Im sure we can all agree that many of our civil liberties were taken away. The patriot act is not good for anyone in America. Having said that, whose the best candidate to abandon that idealogt along with this internet kill switch bill? Im truly afraid of our future
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Last word: The troops agree with Ron Paul. He gets more donations from active duty military personnel than all the other candidates combined. Powerful evidence. Refute that.
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Sovereign, the thing about government is that it matters who is in charge.
A monarchy or an emperor can be great forms of government, so long as you have a great King or Emperor.
When you don’t have that is the problem.
For a republic or democracy, the leadership will reflect it’s populace.
The whole point of the republic in America originally was to minimize central power.
Modern Republicans, Democrats are far removed from that. And that war has been fought and lost.
Christians hold to the threads of the civil government…but that isn’t the way to change a nation.
Get back to telling everyone about Jesus. Make disciples.
You want to end Islam, do it with the double edged sword of the gospel, not the M16.
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Yeah, if Paul is way off about foreign policy, I honestly can’t see him getting the military support he does.
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Since their is no proof that Ron Paul is getting all this support from the Military, other then what he puts out or his people claim. I am going to take it as being just another claim that can not be backed up. Also since I talk to Fort Carson soldier all the time. I have yet to find one that supports him. Most I have spoken to believe he is a joke and a danger.
An since all the polls at the moment are showing him losing. You people can claim all you want. Presently the facts do not support you. He is not winning in any many line polls. Newt or Romeny are head.
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I agree Thorn. It seems both “civilization” and religion has lost their way. I quoted civilization because its supposed to be the act of being civil. No conqueror in history has ever broght civilization to the people that it was conquering, not even America. Christianity and Islam are just as guilty. Buddhist Monks have never done that and neither have Jains. Its a shame that we all have so many different views on so many different things that divide us. Strange thing is, we were all considered family and came from the same source. It seems religion, individualism, and colonialism has caused so much divide. Even religion can be dangerous in the hands of enemies. How far we’ve come people, and not for the better.
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I also think and hope Roy’s version of Christianity is far from the reality for most
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No, accordaning to the Christian Community, I fall right in line with the main stream Bible Beliveing Christains views from GLBT Community to living for God.
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Can we change the subject please! Lets talk about the internet kill switch and the martial law that’s about to take place. Which one of them candidates is going to do away with those? Honest answers please..
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Now it was reported from a source on the radio (I did not catch the name of the group) that they were watching the main Ron Paul Supporters Web Pages. Where their supports were giving marching order to go onto web pages and take over the page. Any one who is standing against Paul, they were told them to attack and do just what we see happen here.
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Yeah I’ve only read a little about the internet kill switch. Does the president get a kill paper press button too?
Or does he just get permission to kill Iran’s internet?
At least originally it was only supposed to be in case of a cyberattack…
Although that’s exactly what Skynet wanted wasn’t it??
Why don’t we learn from history!!
The whole indefinite detention thing just won’t fly in the court…fortunately. Nice we still have a few checks and balances.
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Wow. Pastor Roy can write post 144 and post 148 with a straight face.
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nopm – since it is the truth so yes.
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There is no proof that Ron Paul is getting all this support from the Military and all the major polls that are not conduct by on-line voting. Are showing Ron Paul only in the teens and running third.
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NW JULIANA,
Sorry you feel that way. Your inappropriate and unjustified use of the word “juvenile” offends me but I can live with that. And you may not like my use of the term “Iran Paul,” but he earned it in the worst way and I have explained why.
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Joel Mark see my comment at 148, I believe that is what is happen here with all the new Ron Paul Supporters showing up out of no where.
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SLEUTH512, but you don’t even know me. Sean Hannity has nothing to do with my views. Deal with me, if you can, not some figment of your own presumption about me.
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Joel,
Should we attack Iran and what other countries do you think we should attack?
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NW JULIANA calls you juvenile and question my view on the Word of God. So I guess we are both in the same boat.
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#134 – I never heard Ron Paul “destroy” (your word) Sean Hannity. I speak for myself.
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I did, however, hear for myself as Iran Paul totally destroyed himself and all of his credibvility with a vicious lie about America killing a million Iraqis.
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Uh, Roy? Proof.
Quote: “…From April through June, Paul fielded more than $25,000 from individuals who listed their employer as a branch of the military. Combined, six other Republican presidential candidates listed donations from members of the military totaling about $9,000. Our most-to-least breakdown: Herman Cain, $2,850; Mitt Romney, $2,750; Michele Bachmann, $2,250; Newt Gingrich, $500; and Tim Pawlenty and Rick Santorum, $250 each.
Check it out for yourself at the Federal Election Commission website. This is just a 3-month period from this year, but the results are typical. It’s not Ron Paul propaganda. Better move on to another tactic.
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BTW
I’m not out of no where. I’m certainly not a veteran of this list compared to some, but I am pretty sure I have been here a lot longer than Pastor Roy. I just don’t post that often. The debate last night pretty much convinced me that I don’t want Santorum, Gingrich, Bachmann, or Perry (and I’ve pretty much never wanted Romney or Huntsman). Nevertheless I may end up voting for the nominee when election time comes around.
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You want to end Islam, do it with the double edged sword of the gospel, not the M16.
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We are not trying to end Ilsam by the M16. We will never see the end of a false religion until the Return of Christ.
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NW Juliana – you are the first to present proof, but $25,000 from individuals who listed their employer as a branch of the military. It does not mean they are soldiers. They could be px works, cooks, cilivians that work for the Military.
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So to claim it is coming from the soldiers is not right.
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“Since their is no proof that Ron Paul is getting all this support from the Military…”
Ron Paul received more than twice the contributions from active duty military than all other candidates combined, and more than Obama.
Source: Federal Elections Commission, Military Donation Receipts 2Q2011.
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My Wife works at Fort Carson, when she list who place Word it is Fort Carson. But she is contract worker..
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Nice try, Roy. Military is military. Whether they’re soldiers on the front line, cooks, workers in the PX, civilians, chaplains or doctors, their profession is in national defense, and overall, people who are in the business of national defense at home and around the world support Ron Paul far and away more than any other one candidate.
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Okay, off to go caroling. Make sure you spread some Christmas cheer this season.
Christmas is best done by kindness to the small. It is a Feast of Meekness, and Divine Kindness that is hidden in twilight and silent mystery. So you’d better feed the animals and find a poor man to help. Then learn how to cheer in the old ways. Be humble. Surrender your bitter pride and pet despondencies. Sing. Drink. Feast. Build a roaring fire in the hearth. Be human again, so that in your authentic nature you can sense the Son of Man.
http://janotec.typepad.com/terrace/2011/12/bons-mots-for-the-happy-holidays.html
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way to go WESTPOINTGRAD Iwas just looking for that info! Our churches have been taken over! Just look at the presidents choice who said Jesus believed in social justice!I hope no one on here believes in it.Vote Paul 2012!
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Nice try, Roy. Military is military
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No, there is the soldiers and then there is the civilians.
The Soldiers are the one who defend the nation, the civilians on post ensure our soldiers and their familes are taken care of at home.
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Different Jobs.
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Newt will most likly win Iowa, with Romney coming in second, I believe Perry or Santorum will be third and Paul will end up fourth in the low teens.
Most people believe the turn out is going to be around 80,000 only. Which one report stated helps Newt and may help Santorum since he has spent alot of time in Iowa. The reason they believe it hurts Paul is because most of his supports are young and history shows they do not turn out for these types of votes.
The question is how will it effect the nexts few States in Jan and Feb.
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Paul will be 1st or second if not kiss our country goodbye!
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The question is who are going to be the first ones to drop out after the first States…
One report I heard is Michele Bachmann is having a hard time getting funds. Rick Santorum has put ever thing on getting a strong showing in Iowa. Jon Huntsman is not showing any signs of life in the polls.
When the first one drops out where will their supporters go and will they make a differents.
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Going back to your comment, PASTOR ROY, that “…we are not…an empire”, there is serious disagreement on this issue between modern historians. The U.S. is certainly a hegemony, having troops in over 130 countries. The only defensible argument for the case that we are not an empire is the fact that the U.S. has generally preferred indirect and informal rule.
To your point that soldiers do not have the right to ask for proof before going to war, you are correct. But the issue isn’t about proof, it’s about legality. Soldiers are responsible for ensuring that they follow only lawful orders. Research the Nuremburg Trials to find out why that is so.
If you spent 8 years in the Army and never questioned (considered the legality of) your orders then you were not fully following your oath to support and defend the U.S. Constitution. Mindless obedience on the part of soldiers has sometimes resulted in their imprisonment or execution.
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Maybe it was on a different thread that I explained why began today to use “Iran Paul” for the man who holds such antipathy for us and such sympathy for Iran that he would blame us for the killings that Iran perpetrated and not just roll over as they get nukes but he speaks up for their alleged right and their desire to get them, as if they are deserving.
Iran Paul actually accused the USA of killing a million Iraqis in last night’s debate. He apparently thinks that the USA is actually the nation of Iran (who, along with Al Qaeda, actually did most of the killing in Iraq). I am serious and in earnest in calling him Iran Paul. He should run for President of Iran, given his sympathies with them and his baseless antipathy to us.
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“Regime change in Iraq was ACTUALLY on the CLINTON agenda long before 9/11 and long before Bush. President Bush went through all the reasonable channels before allying with a 30-nation coalition to use force against Iraq. He gave Saddam 112 months to comply with international demands”
Just further proof that we live in a one-party state, two wings of the same predatory bird. Gingrich co-sponsored 418 bills with Nancy Pelosi. The GOP Politburo and Harry Reid are bed together. Any public squabbles are for the show.
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“Now it was reported from a source on the radio (I did not catch the name of the group) that they were watching the main Ron Paul Supporters Web Pages. Where their supports were giving marching order to go onto web pages and take over the page. Any one who is standing against Paul, they were told them to attack and do just what we see happen here.”
We are attacking falsehoods with truth. Stop the wars, the killing, the assassinations, the torture, the indefinite detentions, the drone attacks on innocent Muslims in Pakistan, the oil wars, the invasions – do unto others as you want them to do unto you. God calls us to stand for justice, righteousness and truth, a totally foreign concept to the blood thirsty war mongering pro-lifers led their pastors – wolves in sheep’s clothing: “Party first, all other moral issues second.”
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“I also think and hope Roy’s version of Christianity is far from the reality for most
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No, accordaning to the Christian Community, I fall right in line with the main stream Bible Beliveing Christains views from GLBT Community to living for God.”
Which is why we are leaving the church in droves. Nothing Bible or believing about it. No living for God either: Lust after mammon and power and christian jihadism.
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@JOEL MARK Your argument is baseless. Ron Paul has never blamed Americans. He has said on numerous occasions that our foreign policy was a contributing factor. That position was also put forth by both the CIA and the 9/11 Commission.
There is no evidence that Iran has a nuclear weapon or will have one in the near future. They are a sovereign nation surrounded by nuclear powers. They have a right to arm themselves. Considering that they have not gone to war with another country in nearly 300 years, as a people they are far more restrained than we are.
Even before the war in Iraq, our sanctions were responsible for the deaths of half a million of their children. There have been different estimates through the years but at least a couple indicate the total is over one million.
The U.N. estimated that nearly 5 million Iraqis became refugees between 2003 and 2007, and many more since. About 60,000 of them have come to the U.S. Then there are the thousands of U.S. military who have died and tens of thousands who have been wounded. Have you no sympathy for the millions of families that have been ruined by the needless death and destruction brought about by our illegal wars?
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“One report I heard is Michele Bachmann is having a hard time getting funds. Rick Santorum has put ever thing on getting a strong showing in Iowa. Jon Huntsman is not showing any signs of life in the polls.”
Oh, but these candidates are pro-war. Isn’t that a popular platform? The country wants more wars. We love war don’t we? Ron Paul’s anti-war stance is unpopular? Really? Only the christian jihadists want war.
We are wasting $3 billion a week in Afghanistan (borrowing it from the Chinese). Are they going to thank us? The day we leave, they’ll burn our flag in their streets as they did in Iraq yesterday.
Why are the warmongers having problem raising money? Let’s see, Ron Paul has already raised $2.378 million today and counting. The anti-war platform is the future. Blessed are the peacemakers.
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Joel Mark and all the other warmongers answer these questions. No sense in cheer leading for more war, when you can’t tell us how you wil pay or it:
Let’s assume all this war propaganda has a scintilla of truth in it. How much will it cost to fight a war against Iran? How long will it take? Where will you get the money from. We have already mortgaged the future of our children and grandchildren to the tune of $15 trillion and counting.
What happens if Russia and China, Iran’s staunch allies comes to Iran’s defense? Do we get a nuclear war, or do we turn tail?
You haven’t answered my question, if this all to protect Israel, why didn’t Israel join us and the NATO forces in the Iraq war? Will Israel provide men and material if we start a war against Iran? If not why not? I’ve got you over a barrel with these questions. I don’t expect rational answers.
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WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Ron Paul has never blamed Americans.”
Sorry, but I have heard him do so often WIHT MY OWN EARS. Your denials are baseless.
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What do you call a christian jihadist preacher who promotes wars against innocent Muslims abroad, supports unprovoked drone attacks on the innocent, favors torture and random assassinations? Answer: Mullah Roy.
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WESTPOINTGRAD wrote of Iran; “They have a right to arm themselves.”
We are talking about a country whose President has repeatedly call for wiping Israel off of the map and creating a world without the United States of America. They do NOT have a right to arm thensleves at all. They have forfeited it just like the Nazis forfeited theirs. And yes, their President denies the holocaust.
WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Considering that they have not gone to war with another country in nearly 300 years…”
Wrong! Iran has gone to war with us, big time!!! You are asleep, sir.
WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Even before the war in Iraq, our sanctions were responsible for the deaths of half a million of their children.”
More false and hateful blame for the USA, while excusing and sympathizing with Nazi fascist Islamist terrorists at war with us.
See how much poison Iran Paul has injected into America’s discourse!
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SLEUTH51, you have been taught not to think. Instead you just call me a “warmonger” (falsely) and think you have made a point.
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Iran has been at war with us since the 70’s. Some people are simply to blind to see it. Here’s just the latest example. I know you Paul isolationists think we should just let ‘em be, but you miss the obvious. They will not just let us be. You think we should just hide under a rock and pretend we have nothing to fear. You sound like Neille Chamberlain. He was wrong too.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/16/federal-judge-iran-shares-responsibility-for-911-terror-attacks/
“In an historic hearing in the federal courthouse in Manhattan on Thursday, U.S. District Court Judge George Daniels said he planned to issue a ruling in the coming days declaring that Iran shares in the responsibility for the 9/11 terror attacks.
“The extensive record submitted to this court, including fact witnesses and expert testimony, is satisfactory to this court,” Judge Daniels said. The court “accepts as true” the various allegations of the plaintiffs and their experts, he declared, and “will issue an order” in the coming days that Iran bears legal responsibility for providing “material support” to the 9/11 plotters and hijackers.
Family members of 9/11 victims who attended the open-court hearing broke into tears. They had nervously sat through a four-hour presentation by attorneys Thomas E. Mellon, Jr., and Timothy B. Fleming, consisting of evidence backing up their claims that Iran had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks and actively assisted the hijackers in planning, preparing, and executing their plan.
“My husband’s name is on that lawsuit,” said Fiona Havlish, the lead plaintiff in the case against Iran. Her spouse, Donald G. Havlish, Jr, perished on the 101st floor of the World Trade Center’s South Tower. “This is about my husband, all our husbands, our loved ones, our sons, our daughters.”
Ellen Saracini, whose husband, Victor Saracini, took off that morning at the controls of United Airlines Flight 175, called it “a historic day” because a U.S. court found that Iran was responsible for the attacks. “When I heard the verdict, I just smiled up to Victor and said, ‘we’re still thinking about you up there.’”
In presenting evidence gathered by the attorneys and their outside investigator, Timothy Fleming revealed tantalizing details of still-sealed videotaped depositions provided by three defectors from Iranian intelligence organizations.
One of those defectors was “physically present” when al-Qaida’s second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, came to Iran in January 2001 for four days of intense closed-door meetings with the top leadership in Iran to discuss the impending attacks.”
Just one more reason to dismiss Paul as a viable candidate.
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“WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Ron Paul has never blamed Americans.”
Sorry, but I have heard him do so often WIHT MY OWN EARS. Your denials are baseless.”
What the argument about?
When we imposed sanction on Iraq, 500,000 children died according to official United Nation statistics. Madeline Albright was asked about that. She confirmed the number and said, “It was worth it.” (Imagine 500,000 abortions, what outrage we would hear from the warmongers) So, there are 500,000 deaths attributed to our government’s action. We vote them to power. Their deaths are on out heads, unless we protested the action.
According to Just Foreign Policy, 1.4 million Iraqis died since the invasion. Stalin said that one death is a tragedy, one million a statistic. Why should we argue about statistics. Let’s look at the human tragedy on one innocent soul who loved life, but the Bush/Cheny’s lust for oil stole that life. Now, how many would make the warmonger jihadists feel some pang of conscience? 100,000, 500,000? Good gracious. How can we even argue about the actual statistic.
($2.424 million raised by Paul supporters today and counting. His website has a counter with the names of people donating in real time. Real people, all across the country, throwing in their donation, $50 a time. Now that’s honest politics, but the Christians malign him in favor of serial adulterers.)
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@JOEL MARK
“Sorry, but I have heard him do so often WIHT MY OWN EARS.”
Name sources other than hearsay.
“a country whose President has repeatedly call for wiping Israel off of the map”
False. Go back and read the original translation.
“…their President denies the holocaust.”
Irrelevant. And Ahmadinejad is about 20th in line from the real leader of Iran. His opinions on world affairs are about as important as those coming from our Secretary of Transportation.
“Iran has gone to war with us”.
Where is their military engaged with ours? If we are at war, you should be able to point to credible news reports of those battles.
“More false and hateful blame for the USA…”
Former Secretary of State under Bill Clinton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo
What is your military background?
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Joel Mark you are not a warmonger. Aren’t you cheer leading for another war in Iran? Did you not defend the war in Iraq? That’s warmongering. That’s condoning war against nations that have done us no harm. Iraq was our ally. Ramsfeld gave him weapons, shook his hand, then used and abused him, then killed him. Gadaffi agreed to give up his nuclear program and then we killed him. It is always about oil. It is despicable, utterly despicable, unworthy of our country. But we have sold our soul to the war profiteers. Between the war profiteers and warmongers, we have brought our country to the brink of bankruptcy.
So, much of what you say, comes right out of Hannity’s playbook, but Levin (only cares about Israel), Limbaugh and O’Reilly all follow the same line of reasoning. Anyway anwser my question, how yah gonna pay for it?
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@THE REAL AJ
Assuming it is true that “Iran bears legal responsibility for providing “material support” to the 9/11 plotters and hijackers”, we are still not at war with Iran.
We provide “material support” through various federal agencies to numerous rebels throughout the world. That does not mean we are at war with the regimes that our government dislikes. Should China begin bombing us because we support rebel causes in their country? Or Russia?
Ron Paul understands the difference. Just one more reason to dismiss all the other candidates.
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The Real AJ says we have been at war with Iran since seventies. Correct.
The CIA went in there helped to overthrow a legitimate democratically elected government (regime change, a bad habit in Washington) and install the Shah, who was about as brutal as Saddam. He was overthrown by popular uprising. Since then there has been blood between us and Iran, and Iran is not to blame. Not so?
Then we helped Saddam in his war against Iran. More reason for bad blood.
Then we shot down a civilian air plane over Iranian air space. George Bush gave the captain of the ship some medal of commendation. (You can’t make this stuff up. He should have been court-marshaled). More bad blood.
Then we imposed sanctions on Iran. More bad blood
So, now Iran is labeled a terrorists nation. Good grief. Who engineered the overthrow of a legitimate regime? The US. Sounds like an act of terrorism to me. Who shot down a civil plane? The US. Sounds like an act of terrorism to me, etc. Who is the real terrorist nation?
You have been lied to by successive governments and you refused to think for yourself. There is no way under the sun you can justify the actions of the US, least of all on Christians grounds.
If Pakistan had oil, we would have used there nuclear program as an excuse to invade them. It’s all about oil, war profiteers, the military-industrial complex and corrupt politicians.
(Update: Ron Paul’s campaign has now raised $2.521 million today. That is on top of the $1.45 million raised in last week’s money bomb. The anti-war candidate who speaks the truth in righteousness is raking in the funds for the cause of liberty and Constitutional government. The warmongering Bachman is going nowhere. Tried to raise $250,000 in a money bomb yesterday to no avail.)
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The US needs more wisdom in its foreign policy. The primary beneficiary of the US invasion of Iraq has been Iran. Couldn’t anyone see that Iraq is primarily Shiite, and in an election would likely elect a government friendly to Iran.
I have been a Republican since age 10, and loved Ronald Reagan. The sad fact is I prefer Obama’s foreign policy over all Republican candidates. Paul is too isolationist, but we don’t need a Republican who will start another war.
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I notice nobody wants to answer these questions. It is easy to talk about war, but hard to face reality. Newt Gingrich got multiple deferments, when he was drafted, but he wants to send my sons to war. Ron Paul was drafted and reported for duty. As flight surgeon, he treated our wounded, while Newt Gingrich sat in his apartment smoking weed.
Answer these questions, someone.
No sense in cheer leading for more war, when you can’t tell us how you wil pay or it:
Let’s assume all this war propaganda has a scintilla of truth in it. How much will it cost to fight a war against Iran? How long will it take? Where will you get the money from. We have already mortgaged the future of our children and grandchildren to the tune of $15 trillion and counting.
What happens if Russia and China, Iran’s staunch allies comes to Iran’s defense? Do we get a nuclear war, or do we turn tail?
If this all to protect Israel, why didn’t Israel join us and the NATO forces in the Iraq war? Will Israel provide men and material if we start a war against Iran? If not why not? I’ve got you over a barrel with these questions. I don’t expect rational answers.
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@SLEUTH51
Good point about who is responsible for any war between us and Iran.
“Bachman…Tried to raise $250,000 in a money bomb yesterday to no avail.” But at least she’s a nice mom and pro-life warmonger.
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@RickyWeaver
“Paul is too isolationist…” Actually, no. Peaceful trade with all and entangling alliances with none is the advice of our Founders. It’s called non-interventionism – not isolationism.
There is nothing more isolationist than killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in countries that never attacked us, never threatened us, and never posed a threat to us.
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Ricky Weaver, you are correct, the primary beneficiary of the war in Iraq is Iran! Today’s Financial Times reported: Iraq’s economic spoils go to nations that shunned the war. They name Turkey, Iran, China, South Korea (we defend them, but they won’t help us with our wars?),Italy (a NATO country that opted out!) and Arab states.
You say Ron Paul is an isolationist. Let’s assume he rephrases his position and tells you that he’d love to run around the world and do nation building, playing policemen of the world and engaging in wars, but he checked our finances. “We are now borrowing forty cents in every dollar we spend. Hence, at this rate we will hardly have money to pay interest on the debt, pay for Social Security and medicare, so what good is nation building wars to us. Even countries like Israel, South Korea and Italy who depend on our protection won’t join us in the nation building wars. We are just flat broke. It has nothing to do with being an isolationist.” Would that make a difference, because the two are basically the same. It’s like me saying, Don’t accuse me of being a tight wad, I’m very generous by nature, it is just that I am flat broke at this time.”
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Fact is nothing isolates like these wars, invasions, drone attacks, sanctions, etc.
The Iraqis burned our flag in the street yesterday. They did the same in Egypt and when the Muslim Brotherhood takes over in Libya they will follow suit.
I have friends in both the UK and Australia who want their governments to break this cozy relationship with the warmongers in Washington. They think the closeness will lead to terrorist attacks during the London Olympic games. And the guy in Australia says that Australia could become a terrorist target if they allow a US military base in Australia. They don’t want to be subjected to the anti-terrorist measures that plague Americans.
(Update Ron Paul has now raised more than $2.6 million today and counting. Anti-war is popular.)
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“Bachman…Tried to raise $250,000 in a money bomb yesterday to no avail.” But at least she’s a nice mom and pro-life warmonger.
WestPointGrad.. yes, but what’s her obsession with Israel? Israel’s per capita income is growing faster than here in the US. They have 300 nukes and a military machine that wins wars in six days, not eight years and counting. Best of all, they have God on their side. Bachmann’s got no faith in God. She thinks she should be the protector of Israel.
She has just finished a destructive war in Iraq, that wasted an enormous amount of blood (pro-lifers take note) and treasure, but that’s not enough for her. Now she stirs up war propaganda against Iran, where there are 600 Christian churches and a 350,000 strong Jewish population. Only Ron Paul understand the true nature of these issues and how to deal with them: just follow the Constitution.
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Her position with regard to Israel is based in her Dispensationalist theology. I’m sure she has faith in God but an incorrect understanding of eschatology that leads her to believe Israel must be defended at any cost. And, I’m sure she believes that the U.S. has a special appointment from God to be the protector of Israel. All of this is dangerous nonsense that is destroying our nation and doing absolutely nothing to advance the Kingdom of God. If anything, it is destroying the witness of Christians in those Muslim countries and leading to more persecution.
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WestPointGrad, I could not have said it any better. I hope Mullah Roy sees your post. Forget about politics, policies and budgets, your last sentence is all that should matter to Christians. Bomb Iran and one just knows that their 600 churches will burned down to the ground. No Christin witness left in Iran after that.
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Joel Mark, the real Aj
As we see more Ron Paul supporters that can defeat the facts. They must resort to attacking the Christian Faith and then attack people personal by call them christian jihadist preacher, Mullah Roy.
Which reveals these people are trolls, with order from the Ron Paul Web that I talked about @ 148.
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NW JULIANA, I respect your toen and your concern. I am not really offended. But I do disagree and think “Iran Paul” is justified.
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Joel Mark – so you are now a warmonger? How did that happen?
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SLUETH51 vwrote; “Besides Israel can protect itself and they have God on their side. I’d take God over Bachmann any day.”
No, she cannot if Iran has and uses nukes, as Iran’s leaders have threatened to do. A clue, get! And the choice is NOT between God and Bachmann. Your twisted thinking is making an impression on us, SLEUTH51 and it’s not the impression you want.
WESTPOINTGRAD wrote (regarding Iran Paul blaming America); “Name sources other than hearsay.”
Me, for one. At last night’s debate I heard Iran Paul dishonestly bvlamed America for killing a million Iraqis. His comment was vile, poisonous and a lie.
Also YOU have blamed America falsely and other sychophants on this thread.
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@PASTOR ROY
My Christian faith is quite secure and has been for nearly 50 years. Your lack of pity on followers of Jesus Christ in Muslim countries is deplorable. Your position reminds me of the “Christian” justification for dropping a nuclear bomb on Nagasaki in 1945. What the Japanese Imperial government could not do in over 200 years of persecution, American Christians did in 9 seconds. The entire worshipping community of Nagasaki was wiped out.
For Christians, the primary consideration before entering any war should be how it will reflect on Jesus Christ and the implications for His Kingdom on earth.
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@JOEL MARK
I’m thoroughly familiar with Ron Paul’s positions. Obviously you are not.
I heard his remarks last night and I know what I’ve written. Neither he nor I have ever blamed America. Are you the one dropping bombs? He was referencing the federal government as he always has with respect to bombing – not the American people. Stop bearing false witness.
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Joel Mark answer my questions. Maybe your Mullah Roy could chime in.
Joel Mark wrote: SLUETH51 vwrote; “Besides Israel can protect itself and they have God on their side. I’d take God over Bachmann any day.”
No, she cannot if Iran has and uses nukes, as Iran’s leaders have threatened to do. A clue, get! And the choice is NOT between God and Bachmann. Your twisted thinking is making an impression on us, SLEUTH51 and it’s not the impression you want.’
Khrushchev threatened to bury us. These faithless Christians are so easily scared by the cave dwellers and goat herders. No such fears in Israel, especially if Ron Paul is President, because he will not interfere in their internal affairs.
Iranians can’t even refine their own oil, let alone deliver nukes that they don’t have to far away places called the US and Israel. They have to import their gasoline from China. Get that/ And you fear them? You will risk total bankruptcy in the US because of the bellicose of their illustrate leaders? China doesn’t care squat about US sanctions. Answer my questions. Is it so hard for you to enlighten us.
Of course America caused the deaths of at least a million innocent Iraqis. Check my previous post. Why is that an issue? They just fell over and died of natural causes at and during the time of our invasion?
These posts are to counter the disinformation in the Christian community with regard to Ron Paul and to instill some humility and reflection on the true consequences of these wars as they pertain to Christians, so eloquently explained by WetsPointGrad above.
Now answer my questions.
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Psalm 120
“Too long have I lived among those who hate peace. I am a man of peace; but when I speak, they are for war.”
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JM: I really don’t like piling on here, (well maybe just a bit)
but here goes:
No, she cannot if Iran has and uses nukes, as Iran’s leaders have threatened to do.
Ummm, you don’t suppose sweet little Israel has nukes, do you?
At last night’s debate I heard Iran Paul dishonestly blame America for killing a million Iraqis. His comment was vile, poisonous and a lie.
Why? Because his number might have a a bit high? How many Iraqi civilians do you think we killed? Did they somehow deserve to have American bombs rain down on their heads and have their children shredded before their eyes thus making Paul’s statement a lie? Oh, and mightn’t they just blame us a little bit??
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Argue the topic and not the other commenters, and cut out the name-calling. For those of you new here, I advise you to read our Website Policies, especially the section on the Rules of Engagement.
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I find it sickening that people call themselves Christians, and then promote WAR. Jesus was the Prince of Peace! He said “Blessed are the peacemakers” well Ron Paul is a peacemaker!!! hellllloooo we have here a candidate who has genuine family values (has been married to the same woman for over 50 years, unlike Newt who is a serial adulterer!), is genuinely PRO-LIFE (has delivered over 4000 babies and is staunchly pro-life), is a brilliant historian who actually learns from history, is the only candidate who understands the root cause of the economic mess we’re in, is actually more PRO-ISRAEL than all the other candidates, because he wants to promote Israel sovereignty, and, most importantly, wants to END THE BLOODSHED. Folks, WAR IS EVIL. You have been deceived by evil forces if you think God wants us invading other countries and bombing innocent people! That is just despicable! How can you call yourselves followers of Christ??? Jesus said love your enemies, duh. OK if someone is directly attacked, fine, then they have the right to defend themselves. Ron Paul is in favor of legitimate defense, and in fact our country will be stronger if we bring our troops home instead of running nearly 1000 military bases all over the world, building an EMPIRE. But invading other countries and starting more wars is WRONG. oh and btw our military supports Ron Paul! He gets more donations from active military than all other candidates combined! Christians who support war aren’t followers of Christ. They totally misunderstand the message of the Prince of Peace and apparently are more interested in getting their ‘ticket’ than in doing what Jesus said to do. They are in for a rude surprise.
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ARCADIA wrote; “Ummm, you don’t suppose sweet little Israel has nukes, do you?”
You miss the point, ARCADIA. Of course they do and no one hinted otherwise. But if Iran attacks with nukes, there may not be much of Israel left to defend herself. And Iran’s leaders, in pure Nazi fashion, have specficially threatened to wipe Israel off the map.
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PEACEONEARTH wrote; “I find it sickening that people call themselves Christians, and then promote WAR.”
I do too. No Christian should or could ever promote war just to promote war. It should only happen as a compeltely last resort to protect the innocent from those who do promote war. I also find it repulsive when leaders call themselves Muslims and promote war and actually engage in it against innocents. That’s why the US military has acted to stop this egregious injustice. Terrorism must be resisted and I admire the brave men who have stepped up to do just that. And yes, that is what our men in uniform have done.
What I know for sure of Iran Paul, PEACEONEARTH, is that he lied in a most vile and poisonous way in this last debate claiming that America killed a million Iraqis. We did not. Iran and Al Qaeda purposely did the killing and we were there to stop them. They were too cowardly to wear uniforms and they hid behind women and children, so to stop them, there had to be colladeral casualties. I blame Iran and Al Qaeda for that and the Ron Paul supporters blame the US military who were actually the most brave and decent of us all for stepping up to serve in a just cause.
Iran Paul’s lie is despicable in the extreme. And I even agree with him about spending cuts and other points. But a blatant lie is a blatant lie.
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“And Iran’s leaders, in pure Nazi fashion, have specficially threatened to wipe Israel off the map.” This is factually incorrect.
See http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html
Stop bearing false witness.
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Joel, you can say many things about Ron Paul, but accusing him of lying isn’t one of them. The man doesn’t lie. He speaks the truth even when it isn’t popular, like last night.
The million number was verified and reported in Lancet. Look it up.
The military know full well Ron Paul is correct. That’s why they back him up. He gets more donations from the military than all the other candidates put together.
I invite you to step out of the ‘us vs them’ mentality and recognize that there are both evil people and good people in every country, every culture, and every religion. It is usually the political machine that causes the violence. Most citizens don’t want the violence.
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The fact of the matter is Ron Paul is losing in all the major polls other then on line polls.
Newt Gingrich is leading in all of the polls
with Mitt Romney second. Then Ron Paul.
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I believe when Iowa is over Ron Paul will end up 4th.
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As for the Christian Faith and Military Action. Now where in God’s Word does it state the Christian can not be part of the Military Action. We Cnristian understand there is a time and place for war. No one want to go to war. Our Nation does not promote war or are we buidling an empire.
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“Blessed are the peacemakers” is not about stop wars. It is about brng Christ love into a person heart.
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Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3“ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
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You must put the Blessed are the peacemakers in the contexts to understand the meaning of it.
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You must put the Blessed are the peacemakers in the contexts to understand the meaning of it.
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Ah, c’mon Roy. You don’t really want us to believe the we’re supposed to be peace makers in one area of our lives, but that it’s okay to back war-based killing in another, do you? Why do you think God is schizophrenic like that? If he tells us to be peace makers, then we ought to pursue peace in ALL areas of life.
(And I don’t think this verse primarily means telling others about the gospel, as you say; I think it means look at our own hearts/actions — are you promoting peace in your life, or are you — oh, for the sake of an example — arguing with people on the internet and causing dissension? Are you actively creating/making peace in your home with the ones you love? Etc. And, yes, I’m guilty, too.)
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Westpointgrad @200. This got very interesting after I went to bed. You are correct that dispensationist theology has an effect here. I distrust any theology that is only 200 years old. I also don’t believe it squares with Scripture. There needs to be a careful and public examination of dispensatioalism by conservative Christian scholars.
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Peacemakers will be blessed in whatever arena they make peace, but governmental pacifism when confronted with force is not and never has been considered making peace. That’s called cowardice, not peace.
That being said, I like Ron Paul, and I don’t think generally non-interventionist foreign policy is a bad thing. We fight too many wars of aggression. We can’t afford them, and they’re WRONG. We have too many bases around the world that are expensive to operate. We probably have too many troops, because if we do bring them all home, they will have nothing to do, and may become restless. Defensive wars require that we be attacked first—or that attack is at least imminent. I favor diplomatic measures—harsh if need be. And respect for the physical boundaries and sovereignty of all nations–even evil nations—but most importantly, for our own. God will judge the nations, not us.
That being said, some of the new faces on the thread are enough to make even Romney look like a better candidate [never thought anyone could do that]. There are many resident RP supporters on the blog. We get along just fine. If anyone else wants to seriously make the case for their candidate, let them stick around and become known. Otherwise, just be aware there are probably liberal trolls stalking the web like wolves in sheeps clothing, building up one and tearing down another for their own purposes. Just a thought.
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I see these pro-war Christians are just not willing to answer my questions above. They know their stance is indefensible, but they’ll call on God to defend their blood lust. They have become like their enemies: jehadists of their “faith.” Just as peace loving Muslims renounce their jehadists, so do we as Christians have to stand up against the jehadists tendencies of those phonies who profess to be disciples of Christ. “If you love me keep my commandments. Go into all the world and preach the gospel”… not violence, retribution, vengeance and revenge.
Arcadia and Peace on Earth you did a good job in your posts above.
The argument that one Iranian nuke could annihilate Israel is just another crazy argument to justify Christian jehadism. One nuke and Israel and every grain of sand on the Iranian soil would be turned into nuclear dust. Just not going to happen, but these Republicans who feign a faith in Christ just can’t accept the fact that they were conned by Bush/Cheney and their war profiteers.
If Pakistan had oil, they would not have had a nuke today. Pakistan is a Muslim country and ally of Iran. Why don’t you call for us to bomb Pakistan? They could easily do Iran’s dirty job for them and deliver a nuke on Israel. If all Muslims are crazy as you and Santorum try to argue, then why are you ruling out the possibility that Pakistan might oblige Iran? Pakistanis are burning our flag in their streets.
Why don’t we just and bomb all countries that we think might drop bombs on Israel. The new Egyptian government will be fiercely anti-Israel, more so because we, Israel’s friend, propped up the previous regime. China is an ally of Iran.
One of these days Russia and China are going to place a couple of their nukes on Iranian soil. Maybe Pakistan will chime in with some of their own. The Christian jehadists will suddenly come to their senses and find excuses why it is no longer necessary to bomb Iran.
Anyway, answer my questions. Who is going to lend you the money to fight your next war? I think the government should tax 20% of church revenues to fund these wars that “Christians” are propagating. Why should the rest of the country pay for their holy wars? 80% of the country is dead against another war and for so-called pro-life Christians to be standing on the nation stage and cheer lead for more wars is a total contradiction of their faith.
My questions again:
Let’s assume all this war propaganda has a scintilla of truth in it. How much will it cost to fight a war against Iran? How long will it take? Where will you get the money from. We have already mortgaged the future of our children and grandchildren to the tune of $15 trillion and counting.
What happens if Russia and China, Iran’s staunch allies comes to Iran’s defense? Do we get a nuclear war, or do we turn tail?
If this all to protect Israel, why didn’t Israel join us and the NATO forces in the Iraq war? Will Israel provide men and material if we start a war against Iran? If not why not? I’ve got you over a barrel with these questions. I don’t expect rational answers.
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Instead of promoting war, these Christians who have a special affinity towards Israel should call for a day of fasting once a quarter asking God to protect Israel.
It is not going to please the GOP Politburo who milks their support for Israel with bellicose war talk to bait their votes, but it will please God much better than standing on a national stage and glorifying torture, assassinations (”we should send the CIA into Iran and take out their scientists”), and war while feigning a pro-life stance. Hypocrisy is particularly galling to unbelievers.
Don’t hold your breath. Christian jehadism is the stock in trade of the likes of the Levin, Hannity and O’Reilly’s who has a following among the Religious Right that takes devotion and discipleship to whole new level. Can you imagine Mark Levin supporting a candidate who favors fasting and praying for Israel in preference to killing innocent and not-so-innocent Muslims, although Levin, Hannity, Santorum and Bachmann cannot conceive of an innocent Muslim.
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WESTPOINTGRAD,
You are not credible and neither are your sources. Iran’s President has on many occasions publicly threatened to wipe Israel off the map and create a world without the United States. Only blinded apologists for Iranian radicals and their falsehoods fall for the false claims that it was a faulty translation. He said it, often. And. like Hitler, he meant it. It is also established that Iran’s President often denies the holocaust. Your refusal to accept reality is just part of the blinding spell Iran Paul has cast over a rising group of angry people.
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PEACEONEARTH wrote; “you can say many things about Ron Paul, but accusing him of lying isn’t one of them.”
Yes, it most certainly is. It is the MAIN thing I affirm about Iran Paul. He lied about us killing a million Iraqis. Shame on him. It was a vicous poisonous lie that discredits the brave men who served and sacrificed in the Iraq conflict–a 30 nation coalition. Only a hate-monger could tell and believe such a lie. Ron Paul lied at the debate, flat out!
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Another example of blind antipathy for fellow Americans is the use of phrases like “GOP Politburo” and “Christian jehadists.” (corrected spelling: ‘jihadists’) It’s not just that they are in poor taste and unfair-minded, but that they are rooted in unjustified and bitter anger without basis in reality.
But I am glad for the recent posters here, not because they get to hear a different view (I don’t think they are hearing it at all), but because many of us are getting to hear them. Thus we are having to confront the foolishness of just dismissing Ron Paul as the crazy aunt in the attic. Actually, he is the perpetrator of dangerous and vile lies and he is poisoning fellow Americans (especially the young whose experience is not extensive) with horrific falsehoods (for example: his false and bizarre claim that we killed a million Iraqis).
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NW Juliana – Time and time again in the OT God caledl his people to go to war. God has not changed… Their is time and place for war..
Unlike you NW Juliana, these new people spend an alful alot of energy trying to get peopl mad…
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9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
—
Non – Christian can be peacemaker, but they are not cal the sons of God.
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Debra please read my comment at 148, I believe that is who these new people are.
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What did Jesus say about up wars
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows
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Until Christ returns there are going to be wars. You can not aovid it. You can not lock yuorselves away and avoid.
NO ONE WANTS TO GO TO WAR. EVERY ONE DESIRES PEACE.
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@JOEL MARK
I didn’t realize that you are a trained linguist and translator, fluent in Farsi. Please share your academic credentials. How many years have you studied Farsi? Here is the original quote: “???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???” Please provide us with your personal translation.
Again, Ahmadinejad is about 20th in the line of power. His opinions on history and world affairs are borderline irrelevant, making your emphasis on his remarks entirely unjustified.
Your ad hominem attacks, and callous indifference to staggering war casualties on both sides, are transparent and only serve to discredit your opinions.
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Joel Mark, I don’t care a hoot whether you vote for Ron Paul, but I do care that Christians are at the forefront of the campaign for torture, assassinations and war. (I’m using the spelling of my Muslim friends in Bangladesh interchangeably – the ones to whom I send Bible passages like 1 Cor 13 – unreferenced – which they then pass onto their friends, because the words are so beautiful and inspirational; same with extracts from the sermon on the mount which they just love, not knowing that these are he words of Jesus. You see, the non-violent approach: be as wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.) To them, the likes of Bachmann, Bush and Santorum are Christian “jehadists.” No different from what talk show radio call them all day long.
The GOP establishment is no different from the old Soviet Politburo. Trust me, I have firsthand experience. They don’t care about voters in the trenches. They are the ruling class. You and I are the subject class. They sent the subject class to war to die, so that their war profiteering buddies can make out like bandits. GOP Politburo is almost a complement.
Joel Mark, you seem to be incapable of facing facts. How did a million-plus Iraqis die, if it were not for our invasion? How can you be blind to the facts, but if you want to argue that the real number is 100,000, what’s your point? Do you think that 100,000 abortions are not OK, but killing 100,000 Iraqis was OK? this is the Christian hypocrisy that everyone finds so galling.
Now answer my questions above. You can’t call for war, because some goat herder in Iran made inflammatory remarks, for the sole purpose of attracting the ire of the US government, and not tell us how you are going to pay for it. The inflammatory remarks are to force a response from the US govt. As a consequence of this war talk, the whole population rallies behind this goat herder. Call it politics and not worth starting another war.
Mormons like Romney and Huntsman are far more temperate in their lust after war, which leads me to believe that perhaps they are using the Iran card just to ensure that the defense budget is not cut, because they are beholden to the military-industrial complex.
So you want war. How are you going to pay for it? Who will lend you the money? China, an ally of Iran? How many US troops are you willing to sacrifice? Will any of your children be in the firing line? How many Iranians (including from among the Christians and Jewish population) would you be happy to see exterminated in this act of vengeance? And what if Russia and China install their nuclear missiles on Iranian territory? Will Israel provide troops, pilots, planes etc.? Why did they not join NATO forces in the Iraq war? Aren’t they supposed to be an ally of the US? You can’t and won’t answer these question, so you call it foolishness to hide your embarrassment.
It is also notable that nobody else among the Religious Right who post on the board is willing to step up and answer these questions. It speaks to the moral corruptness of the church today. The gates of hell are very much prevailing.
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Looks like the Farsi quote didn’t take, so here it is anglicized: “Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”
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@PASTOR ROY
“Until Christ returns there are going to be wars.” And people like you will make sure that we have as many of them as possible, legal or not, moral or not, as long as they fit your agenda.
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Post on ABC website this morning “I am a retired US Army veteran who served my Country for over 23 years. I will be voting for Dr. Ron Paul and I pray you will vote for him also.
This was an awesome interview by Jay Leno and I will be watching his show again. It is refreshing to see such honesty coming from someone running for the Presidency. Ron Paul for President in 2012.”
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@SLEUTH51
These warmongers will never answer your questions. They will be fully exposed if they do and they know it.
Joel Mark appears to be an Israel Firster, of the opinion that the cost in U.S. blood and treasure, the amount of death and destruction, is irrelevant as long as from his perspective it results in some advantage to Israel – however slight.
I graduated from the U.S. Military Academy 30 years ago and spent 25 years in the DoD. From the rank of 2-star up our generals are almost completely politicized. However, the rank and file Officers, NCOs and other military personnel who have experienced the staggering loss of life around them and the toll on their own lives and families through repeated exposure to long tours, multiple tours, escalating suicide and divorce rates, and other hardships, have a very different perspective on the validity and value of what they’re doing in these illegal wars.
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Thank you WestPointGrad. Thank you also for your service to the country.
What the likes of Joel Mark can’t understand is the politicization of the higher echelons of the military, politicization that works in many ways to their benefit, just to mention one here. The boards of directors at US corporations are littered with retired military, where they pick up their $300,000 to $500,000 per annum compensation. In turn, they smooth the way for the military-industrial complex to get their hands on as much of our $3 trillion budget as they possibly can. It is called crony capitalism.
Wars and talk of war ensure that the military budget continues to expand, to a point now where we spend more on defense (rather military; nothing to do with defense of the homeland) than the rest of the world together.
In the 2011 fiscal year, we spent $904 billion (6.5% of our GDP) to police the world and keep our allies safe. Consider one ally, Canada. It is truly laughable, but Canada spends a miserly $22 billion a year. Canada’s economy is in good shape. Its national debt is well under control, and is has cash to spare to provide universal health care to everyone. It is not much different in other countries that rely on our protection. South Korea’s corporate tax rate is 15% (as is Canada’s), while our corporation struggle with a 35% tax rate. Taiwan corporate tax rate is as low as 5%. US corporations relocate their manufacturing to Singapore where they get a tax holiday.
How stupid are we? Bankrupting ourselves to that corrupt politicians could benefit. (They also make their way on US corporate boards when they leave Congress; as one ex-Congressman told a friend of mine, I never realized how much opportunity their is to make a fortune in the Corporate world for the likes of me). This all goes away when we cut the size of government (and in particularly foreign military expenditures) and shrink the size of government to the point where the budget is so small that corporations have no incentive to promote crony capitalism. In turn, taxes would be so low that we would all enjoy most if not all of the fruits of our labor.
Swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks. Only possible under a Ron Paul administration, not beholden to any special interests, only beholden to We the People, as the Founding Fathers wanted it.
How can people object to this, other than they have been brainwashed by the media. (I don’t have a TV – have a prudish view of this for the most part unholy object and a time waster at best – so it is easy for me to think for myself.) Ron Paul has truly cured my apathy and opened my eyes to the political deceit, greed and graft present in Washington.
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“NW Juliana – Time and time again in the OT God caledl his people to go to war. God has not changed… Their is time and place for war..”
OK, who is God’s people? Israel, not the Unites States, unless one makes the argument that if God called Israel to war, under the same conditions, we may also got to war. Fair enough, but did Iraq attack us? No. Japan attacked us so we went to war – fits the Just War doctrine, not so with Iraq.
There are those who argue that Al Qaeda was in Iraq and this justified war. There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq before our invasion. Saddam saw them as allies of Iran and would not tolerate them. There are lots of Al Qaeda in Iraq to day, but we are now withdrawing our troops! Excuse me? We invaded Iraq because Al Queda was there?
Al Queda is in Saudia Arabia (our corrupt ally), always have been there. They are now in Egypt, Yemen, Libya, and a whole host of other countries, stronger than ever. Invading Iraq was the best thing that could ever have happened to the movement. So, no, God did not call us to invade Iraq, no matter how you try and twist Scripture. The massive oil reserves and the way in which US oil services companies could benefits from a regime change beckoned us into war.
Some argue that Saddam had WMDs. So what if they had? Pakistan has WMDs but no oil. That was just anther pretense for regime change. However they never had WMDs. Bush lied, they died. Did we win the war? Iraq is now an ally of Iran, burning American flags in their streets. Other countries that shunned the war are picking up the spoils – the Religious Right want a repeat performance in Iran. Hard to believe.
I regret if some people have a problem that Christians with a conscience come onto this board to plead for sanity and post some home truths. Do unto others as you want them to do unto them. Don’t call others jihadists (some are, but not all) if you can’t face the same criticism. As someone said, one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. I condemn terrorism, but I can see what drives some people to terrorism.
Yes, there will be wars and rumors of war (the GOP candidates did their very best to spread those rumors on Thursday night and even instigate wars of their own), but what does that prove? It gives us the right to invade other countries and war with them, when they have done us no harm? Oh, I can already hear the response: preventive war. We wanted to prevent a war between the US and Iraq, so we invade Iraq? Same with Iran? That’s just fanciful. Iraq and Iran a threat to the US – a nation of goat herders that can’t refine their own oil.
Oh, some may say, it was to prevent a war between Iraq and Israel. Then why did Israel not join the allied forces? It is amazing how little evidence one has to put in front of some people to convince them that war is justifies and God’s will. (Which is why I quoted Goering above, purely to point out that people submit to war and everything else that comes with it so as not to be labeled traitors of the Fatherland.)
Today, if Iraq wants to attack Israel it can rely on Iran as an ally. In that sense, we have weakened Israel. If we start a war with Iran, Russia and China might well join the fray, but in a covert way. They could supply Iran and Iraq with weapon systems to attack Israel, while at the same time out their troops in Iran to help defend the country. Apart from the war funding issue, which nobody wants supply an answer to, the US would have to fight a war on three fronts, Iran, Iraq and Israel. At the same time. China will invade Taiwan. Russia will annex Georgia. I can hear some Christians say, good, the the Lord comes. So much for being pro life. War against Iran is a bridge too far. You don’t have to be a peacemaker, a Christian with a conscience, to understand this.
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@ JOEL MARK “Yes, it most certainly is. It is the MAIN thing I affirm about Iran Paul. He lied about us killing a million Iraqis. Shame on him. It was a vicous poisonous lie that discredits the brave men who served and sacrificed in the Iraq conflict–a 30 nation coalition. Only a hate-monger could tell and believe such a lie. Ron Paul lied at the debate, flat out!”
So then should we call the U.S “Iran U.S” since we obviously don’t tell the truth about all the iraqi’s we’ve killed? You probably wont be able to see the blaringly blatant facts with all the bias that you’ve got going on. That is what makes people dangerous. I would like to thank WESTPOINT GRAD, SLEUTH51, AND NWJULIANA for trying to hold it down and speak the facts against all of the “top teir” candidate bias on here.
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No, there is the soldiers and then there is the civilians. The Soldiers are the one who defend the nation, the civilians on post ensure our soldiers and their familes are taken care of at home.
And you think the actual soldiers are LESS likely to support Ron Paul than the civilians, Roy? I bet you the percentage is even higher if we just look at soldiers. Blessed are the peacemakers.
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I just thought of another scenario.
We go in and bomb Iran, shed a lot of blood on both sides and spend perhaps another trillion dollars. After three to five years, we are at the end of our tether and on the brink of bankruptcy. Protests at home against the war become so widespread that we bring the troops home. Months after the last troops the leave Iranian shores, Russia and China announce the installation of nukes in Iran to provide them protection against any future invasions.
So, what did the war accomplish, other than weaken ourselves, both in terms of our security and finances.
What did the war in Iraq accomplish? What did the war in Afghanistan accomplish? (Iraq is now free? Not really and counting the cost, was it worth it? But if free, it is now an ally of Iran and Al Qaeda has free reign, unlike when Saddam was in charge.)
Besides, as Christians we should not be in the business of defending and encouraging these politically motivated wars, wholly engaged in to satisfy special interests in the military-industrial complex and mainly about oil, because tyrants in other parts of the world, especially Africa, are not even discussed. They don’t have oil, so who cares?
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Joel Mark, c’mon admit it. All Congressman Paul is saying is that because of the U.S.’s unconstitutional involvement in Iraq, one million people have died that would not have otherwise died. He’s not saying (which is all I can think of given your level of abhorrence) that U.S. soldiers were going out and pointing guns at civilians and shot a million of them willy nilly. Or some such thing.
What Ron Paul did was reiterate fact: Something happened (the US got involved in Iraq) and something happened as a result (one million people have died). If the U.S. had not attacked a country that had not attacked them, these people would not have died as a result of U.S. involvement.
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I have honestly not watched this movie. I’m sure I won’t agree with everything, but the introduction talks about Christian Zionism, a totally new term to me. Never heard that one before, so I’m always happy to explore all viewpoints and will now watch it.
I make no recommendations or qualifications. I just don’t know, but it looks intriguing. It would certainly be worth watching by those who write articles for WORLD magazine and if it is full of falsehoods, the experts at WORLD could set the record straight for us. It will no doubt evoke all kinds of emotions:
http://vimeo.com/29901084
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From Jack Hunter (at ronpaul2012.com)
Is Ron Paul Wrong About Iran?
What is more likely? Circa 2003:
That Iraq has WMDs and poses a great threat to the United States? Or what Ron Paul said—that America was overreacting and we would find ourselves in a quagmire?
In 2003, everyone said Ron Paul was wrong. In 2011, most Americans agree that Paul was right.
What is more likely? Circa 2011:
That Iran might have a WMD and poses a great threat to the United States? Or what Ron Paul says—that America is overreacting concerning Iran and going to war with that country will find the US in a quagmire once again?
The notion that Paul is being “absurd” in his policy toward Iran does not make sense if history, experience and common sense have any bearing on the matter.
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@ SLEUTH51 Thats deep stuff. I always knew about this but never really spoke out too much. There’s a book called “Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion” written by E. Victor Marsden that breaks that down as well as a lecture by Rev. Phil Valentine. Even Michael Bradley, who wrote the Iceman Inheritance, has discovered the truth about zionism and the Askenazee jews. But I digress, this is another deep and controversial topic thats not worth debating. All I know is that we need Ron Paul to abolish all of this foolishness.
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Just wanted to pop in and say you guys (and gals
) are doing a good job holding down the fort!
SUPPORT the man THE TROOPS support:
Ron Paul 2012!
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PS: Just started fiddling with my first-ever iPod, and used it to vote for Ron here … again!
So I guess that makes me a PaulBot, tried and true!
Toodles …
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WESTPOINTGRAD, “I didn’t realize that you are a trained linguist and translator, fluent in Farsi.”
There is a lot of things you do NOT realize about me, WPG, and many other things. I have sturdied the issue and the claims that bad tranlations were in play have been debunked. They came from sychophants of Ahmadinejad (who could speak Farsi all too well) who are throwing smoke to protect their mission and keep the West deceived. It was a red herring from those who believe that lying for a cause they believe in is justified. Only a Ron Paul supporter would fall for it. Ahmadinejad’s statements have been confirmed many times over by treliable sources. But you will believe what you want to and it will be all the best about Iran and all the worst about the USA.
People can lie in ANY language.
I think you know this because you are also trying to downplay Ahmadinejad’s power and influence. But he is still speaking as the front man for those Mullahs with more power than his.
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#238 – SLEUTH51 wrote, “I do care that Christians are at the forefront of the campaign for torture, assassinations and war.”
And I care about people lying about decent Christians as if they are at the forefront of the campaign for torture, assassinations and war, but are most certainly not, sir! I care about poisonous politicans like Ron Paul lying about Americans killing a million Iraqis, when we actually protected them and their country at great cost to ourselves.
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#238 – SLEUTH51 wrote, “The GOP establishment is no different from the old Soviet Politburo. Trust me, I have firsthand experience.”
I trust you, SLEUTH51, about as much as I would the old Soviet Politburo or a writer for Pravda. I see profound unjustified hate in your comments, sir.
SLEUTH51 asked “How did a million-plus Iraqis die, if it were not for our invasion?”
It is so arrogant of you to be posting here when you do not even know the answer to that question. You ask such extremely offensive and ignorant questions, like this, and then demand that we answer them (and they have been answered countless times too). Your questions are irrational, sir. Thinking and studying for yourself objectively and seeking truth is tough work, so just blame America and feel more self-righteous anger at the very people who gave their all to protect the Iraqis.
SLEUTH51 wrote: “So you want war.”
A more ignorant and falacious presumption has never been posted here before. You don’t listen and you are far beyond reason.
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#208 – “Khrushchev threatened to bury us.”
And it was wise to take his blustering threats seriously, as did President Reagan. Had we just ignored his threats, the world would be in even worse shape today. And the same with the likes of Hitler who put his threats in a book and people still denied that he was a problem.
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FIS wrote; “Just wanted to pop in and say you guys (and gals) are doing a good job holding down the fort!”
The problem is that it seems to be a virulently angry anti-American fort built on deception and slow-working poison. This from a pastor who would agree with you if we were talking about spending cuts and smaller gov’t.
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You do realize that if Ron Paul had actually lied, it’d be all over the press, right? I haven’t heard a peep from the MSM (only from you, friend).
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WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Joel Mark appears to be an Israel Firster…”
Once again, you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, WESTPOINTGRAD. You don’t know me in the slightest bit, yet you fill the threat with presumption. And you are wrong, again, sir.
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Hi Frank! I wondered where you’ve been. Have fun with your new toy.
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NW JULIANA, c’mon admit it. Congressman Paul lied viciously when he claimed that America killed a million Iraqis. Show some integrity, my friend.
The media themselves are full of deceivers, especially with regard to the long-standing greatness of our nation and the merits of our mission when we are faced with war (as from the warmongers of Iran).
Notice how I call Iran “wormongers” but the Ron Paul supporters here use that term for decent Americans and Christians like myself, whom you have claimed to repsect in the past, NW JULIANA. I’m sick of it (because I know men who have died for their country and NOT as killers but as real protectors) NW JULIANA, and I ask you to step up with a little integrity here.
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In the second paragraph I meant to ask, why should we count on the media to bring out the truth and the facts when they have refused to do this for so long?
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It amazes me that even so-called christians and “pastors” are promoting war to bring about peace. So im assuming that when we have bombed these poor countries into oblivion that somehow they’ll be thankful to us and will not retalliate. When there is a war, both the guilty and the innocent die, especially when carpet bombing. Can you guys live with that…more importantly, if you were the president, would you declare war with just the little bit of info that you have now?
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Obama wouldn’t be president today if he hadn’t opposed the war in Iraq. His opposition is what distinguished him from Hillary Clinton in the primaries. Obama also opposed Bush’s surge, which turned Iraq around. He and Biden both claimed that it would actually make things worse.
But when he got in office, he kept the troops there far far longer than promised. He stepped up the war if Afghanistan profoundly. He increased bombings with drones. He kept Gitmo in place. He kept the Patriot Act. On and on. He became our Commander-in-Chief and he had to change nearly everything he stood for during the election (and Democrats don’t really care either because they want the goodies that he promised and the spending he has perpetrated). But I am glad that when he finally was faced with facts, he backed off of his blame-America-for -everything rhetoric (he was almost as leftist and as bad is Ron Paul is today) and reversed his policies. He had a nation to protect.
So, as soon as he gets into office, here is what he says to the troops: “From getting rid of Saddam to reducing violence, to stabilizing the country, to facilitating elections, you have given Iraq the opportunity to stand on its own as a democratic country. That is an extraordinary achievement.” (President Barack Obama, during his whirlwind 2009 visit with American troops in Baghdad).
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Sovereign, I was in the Baptist Church for forty years and I was never fully aware of Christian Zionism. I am now watching this video and this is my first exposure.
However, when George Bush started to gun for the invasion of Iraq, something just did not seem right. You can’t really invade a country, because a number of citizens of a neighboring country perpetrated attacks of terror on your soil. Somehow, one has to deal with the governments of countries that harbor terrorists and convince them that it is in their best interest to deal with such groups. In addition, one could put a reward on the head of these folk for anyone who could help to apprehend them so that they could be brought to trial. Invading Iraq made no sense, other than the fact that Iraq had oil and Bush/Cheney were heavily indebted to oil interests. I had no idea that there might have been an Israel connection.
I would listen to folks like Mark Levin and Hannity in my car without really figuring out what they were about. I was essential apolitical. Then at church, my pastors started to talk like Hannity and Levin: We fight them over there , because if we don’t fight them over there we would have to fight them over here.” That was fine by me, considering my apolitical stance, but when the congregation started to cheer a clap hands, I knew I’m no longer in a Christian church. And I left.
The pastor didn’t even bother to find out way, mainly because I always tithed in cash. The left hand is not supposed to know what the right hand is giving, hence there was never record of my giving. The assumption was that I did not tithe (although in the strict sense of the word, I was the only true tither, doing it in secret), so why bother fining out why he stopped coming to church. I was not deemed to be a good “customer,” which just reinforced the notion that our 501(c) institutions (so-called churches) have become commercial and political enterprises.
I knew about the Schofield Bible, but I never read it because the Holy Spirit interprets the Bible for us, not some Oxford professor with his footnotes and marginal comments. Anyway, this video certainly provides new insights, which some might not agree with, but there is no harm in skepticism and seeking after truth.
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Some history:
1. Saddam disregarded our Gulf War treaty terms and considered that war as ongoing. He treated 16 UN Resolutions like TP. To tolerate that is to undermine all future legitimate international efforts for peace and stability and would make it impossible to take the USA seriously in the world.
2. President Bush gave Saddam eleven months to begin to comply with international demands before being attacked. Plus we believed he had WMD and/or the capacity and intent to develop and use them. Saddam continued to shoot at our planes. And it was an alliance of 30 nations (with the support of congress too), who removed Saddam.
3. So, the US military successfully deposed Saddam’s regime, leading an alliance of 30 nations to complete this task which they all agreed was necessary for any real progress toward future peace in the Middle East. Instead of abandoning them for a worse fate, we stayed to help them recover.
4. Then, with Iraq as our ally and since the Surge, we opposed some of the most evil torrerists and jihadists in the world, including Al Qaeda invaders and invading jihsdists from Iran.
This was at great cost to ourselves because we chose to do it with boots on the ground rather than with mass bombs–although Obama has more recently done this less and resorted more to bombs from drones.
5. But since a Republican was in office during these profound successes, they must be disparaged and condemned at all cost at every turn. If a Democrat had presided over these successes (with all the same sacrifices made), they would be hailed as heroes at this time!
I sincerely believe it was the right thing to do and I respect those who sacrificed so bravely. You can attack my Christianity for that and pretend to be “amazed” but the problem is your inability to disagree honestly and honorably with me.
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Joel Mark, are you not going to answer my questions? What’s the problem, are they too deep and unfathomable? Forget about the morality of another war, just deal with the finances, the roles of China, Russia and Israel, etc. I don’t know how the Christian Zionists want to deal with these practical matters. Please enlighten us.
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Important quote from author Mona Charen: (Oct. 17, 2011):
* “…The regime in Iran has been killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan for many years and has sworn countless times in the past 30 years to preside over the destruction of the United States. If it wasn’t for a lucky break, Washington D.C., this autumn, would have been the scene of a massive explosion detonated at a high-end restaurant, with scores and perhaps hundreds killed and maimed. The principal target of this terror attack was to be the Saudi ambassador to the United States, but as one of the plotters told another during the planning: “They want that guy (the ambassador) done (killed), if the hundred go with him f**k ‘em.” The FBI suggests that several U.S. senators are also known to frequent the restaurant. This carnage was only one of several violent attacks Iran was planning to perpetrate on American soil. It seems safe to say that President Obama’s outreach to the mullahs is not going well…”
_________
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The mantra, “Death to America” has been ringing in Iranian ears for years. Here is what Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in 2006; “God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism.”
Ahmadinejad has also publicly called for Israel to be “wiped off the map.” (from a speech on October 26, 2006). Challenges to this translation are not credible. It was declared in an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, ‘The World Without Zionism.’
Before that, on August 4, 2006, he announced, “A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel.” (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website). Ahmadinejad has repeatedly denied the holocaust as well, calling it a “myth” and a “lie.”
The Iranian revolutionary state has engaged in sustained terrorist violence in numerous ways for decades, overt and covert. The created Hezbollah, a vicious terrorist organization, as well as Islamic Jihad, the Revolutionary Justice Organization, and others. They have supported Hamas and Ahmad Jibril’s PFLP-GC.
Just a few examples of Iranian backed terror in past years:
* Iran was behind the bombing on the U.S. embassy in Beirut in 1983 which slaughtered hundreds of American soldiers in their beds, as well as the suicide/homicide truck bomb attack on U.S. Marines at Beirut airport that same year.
* The kidnapping, torture, and murder of William Buckley, our CIA station chief.
* The 1984 bombing of a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force base in Spain killing 18 U.S. servicemen.
* The hijacking of Kuwaiti Air Flight 221 in which a USAID worker was murdered and dropped on the tarmac.
* The hijacking of TWA Flight 847 and the murder of Robert Dean Stethem.
* The kidnapping of 96 Western hostages in Lebanon.
This is an extremely short list. It could be updates with w3hat are INCREASING acts against us over the last decade.
Iran also has a long history of cooperating with Sunni terrorists like al-Qaida. Remember the truck bombs that murdered seventeen Americans in a Riyadh neighborhood in May, 2003? They were coordinated from Iran. The 9/11 Commission report also pointed out that Iran has a longstanding relationship with al-Qaida. Plus, a large proportion of the lethal weapons and bomb devices used in Iraq and Afghanistan are from Iran.
Genuine peacemakers don’t ignore direct threats and saber rattling Adolf Hitler promised to dominate the world and kill Jews and the world ignored him. The murderous Marxist-Leninist reign of Josef Stalin was willfully minimized by New York Times reporters (in Stalin’s favor) as well. We don’t want to admit that evil exists.
___________
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Pertinent Quotes:
“Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map for great justice and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine.” ~ Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Speech, October 26, 2005
“Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land.” ~ Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, ‘The World Without Zionism’)
August 4, 2006
“A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel.”
(Ahmadinejad, as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website)
“Are they human beings?… They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame.”
(as quoted by Iranian TV)
June 3, 2007
“With God’s help, the countdown button for the destruction of the Zionist regime has been pushed by the hands of the children of Lebanon and Palestine . . . By God’s will, we will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future.”
(Ahmadinejad, Speech, as quoted by the Fars News Agency)
October 10, 2009
“The Zionist regime wants to establish its base upon the ruins of the civilizations of the region…The uniform shout of the Iranian nation is forever ‘Death to Israel.’…”
(As quoted by Fars News Agency)
September 18, 2009
“They [the Western powers] launched the myth of the Holocaust. They lied, they put on a show and then they support the Jews…. If as you claim the Holocaust is true, why can a study not be allowed? … The pretext for establishing the Zionist regime is a lie… a lie which relies on an unreliable claim, a mythical claim, and the occupation of Palestine has nothing to do with the Holocaust…This claim is corrupt and the pretext is corrupt. This (the Israeli) regime’s days are numbered and it is on its way to collapse. This regime is dying.” ~ Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, at the annual Al Quds Day rally in Tehran, September 18, 2009.
Sept. 18, 2008. “The Holocaust is a lie and the real Holocaust is happening to the Palestinians.”
November 13, 2006
“Israel is destined for destruction and will soon disappear” Israel is “a contradiction to nature, we foresee its rapid disappearance and destruction.”
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Your expose above, neatly summarized in five points, merely assumes that when the United Nations passes a resolution, it is the US taxpayer and marines’ duty to enforce it.
Bush’s demands about WMDs were fake, a pure pretense, like the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The Iran war will commence in the same manner. A US military cargo plane will stray into Iran air space. it will be shot down and the US will declare that an act of war. It was not about WMDs. It was primary about oil, but adding Israel into the mix just wins the support from the Religious Right, dominated by the Christian Zionists.
Your alliance of 30 nations did not include Israel (explain why), and South Korea. Twenty odd nations supplied half a dozen soldiers, just pure tokenism to make up an “impressive 30 nations.” One was Spain, that suffered serious terrorist attacks as a consequence. They quickly withdrew their troops and have lived in peace and safety ever since. Italy saw this and said, nope, were are a member of NATO, but this war makes no sense.
The jihadists have not been expelled from Iraq and if they have, they will be back by January. They are burning American flags in the streets. Iraq is now an ally of Iran.
OK, now answer my questions.
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Ahmadinejad is a goat herder. He rails against Zionists, because he believes the Jews stole the land from the Palestinians, so do a billion other Muslims. It’s in their genes. Since the days of Hagar. His denial of the Holocaust is also just another trademark of the radical Islam. We don’t like it, but I’m not going to hate them for it. That’s why we have freedom of speech. Everyone has the right to make a fool of himself. Ahmadinejad is doing it spades. Feel sorry for the guy. Try and win him for Christ. (I bet you Ron Paul would have a good shot at explaining the gospel to him. My Muslim friends in Bangladesh love Ron Paul.) Ahmadinejad allows Jews and Christians to build synagogues and churches in his country and to worship freely.
I have no skin in the Sarah vs Hagar fight. if someone stole something from you go and take it back. They tried in the past. It takes Israel about six days to dispense with that threat. Nobody, least of all Iran is a threat to Israel, but if the US attacks Iran, Russia and China will join the fight and then Israel will be in serious trouble. This plays into the hands of the Christian Zionists, the Schofield dispensationalists, because if you contort the Scripture enough you might just find a way of promoting a war that could bring Russian and China into the picture. That might just speed up the Lord’s return. No wonder it is so hard these days to get unbelievers interested in the gospel. Too many nut cases like Bachmann around.
It is all bluster and buffoonery, but it works up the likes of you and those in government. The anti-Iran sentiment in US just strengthens Ahmadinejad’s hand. It makes him a hero in the eyes of his people. Never has the infantile words and rantings of a goat herder had so much affect on a nation that boasts of being the most powerful military force in the universe. The only explanation is that it makes political sense in the US to pander to Christian Zionists if you want to be elected. Ron Paul does no such pandering. Nobody owns him.
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Joel Mark Iranians aren’t angels, neither are the Chinese or the Russians, but the Iranians have some cause, base on how we treated them in the past.
The CIA went into Iran and helped to overthrow a legitimate democratically elected government (regime change, a bad habit in Washington) and install the Shah, who was about as brutal as Saddam. He was overthrown by popular uprising. Since then there has been bad blood between us and Iran, and Iran is not to blame. Not so?
Then we helped Saddam in his war against Iran. More reason for bad blood.
Then we shot down a civilian air plane over Iranian air space. George Bush gave the captain of the ship some medal of commendation. (You can’t make this stuff up. He should have been court-marshaled). More bad blood.
Then we imposed sanctions on Iran. More bad blood
So, now Iran is labeled a terrorists nation. Good grief. Who engineered the overthrow of a legitimate regime? The US. Sounds like an act of terrorism to me. Who shot down a civil plane? The US. Sounds like an act of terrorism to me, etc. Who is the real terrorist nation? Our acts against Iran, overtly and covertly, have caused them to retaliate. We’d do the same.
You have been lied to by successive governments and you refused to think for yourself. There is no way under the sun you can justify the actions of the US, least of all on Christians grounds.
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I agree SLEUTH. I was actually a HUGE fan of John Hagee. He is very smart and I like preachers that teach because I love history. Little did I know that he was indoctrinating me. I actually feel bad for our future and I dont believe that there is any hope. Ron Paul yes, but I think we have fallen too deep as a people. As crazy as this may sound, I think we are doing this planet more and more damage everyday that we live. Maybe the prophecies about life ending in 2012 would be good for this planet. Better for the people to become extinct and the planet to survive than for the people to destroy themselves AND the planet in the name of religion, protection, demoncracy, war, and all the other titles and terms that separate us. We are all a lost cause. It will never get better, unfortunatley. If it was possible, it wouldve happened already. Mankind is too divided and chaotic…Too many people have their own version of the truth, and their own interpretation of it. This is the problem with mankind and it cannot be resolved.
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In the GOP debates, the pro-life Christians were the ones espousing torture, assassinations (the CIA should go in and take out Iranian scientists) and war. I’m not making this up.
SLEUTH51 asked “How did a million-plus Iraqis die, if it were not for our invasion?”
Joel Mark: “It is so arrogant of you to be posting here when you do not even know the answer to that question. You ask such extremely offensive and ignorant questions, like this, and then demand that we answer them (and they have been answered countless times too). Your questions are irrational, sir.”
Answer my question, don’t shout abuse. How did a million-plus Iraqis die, if it were not for our invasion? How can you be blind to the facts, but if you want to argue that the real number is 100,000, what’s your point? Do you think that 100,000 abortions are not OK, but killing 100,000 Iraqis was OK? this is the Christian hypocrisy that everyone finds so galling.
SLEUTH51 wrote: “So you want war.”
Joel Mark: “A more ignorant and falacious presumption has never been posted here before. You don’t listen and you are far beyond reason. ”
Oh, you don’t want war with Iran? Really? How could I have been so mistaken?
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#262, Joel Mark, I disagree with you, but have not called you or anyone else here a warmongerer. I maintain a very strong opinion that our nation needs drastic change (not just more of the same old some old), and that Ron Paul is the best candidate of the bunch to bring about the necessary change. I do not believe he did what you claim he did with his words. I believe you are misinterpreting his words to your own end (or to an end that you agree with). But how you vote and why is up to you and I respect your freedom to have at it.
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Joel Mark: “Important quote from author Mona Charen: (Oct. 17, 2011):
* “…The regime in Iran has been killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan for many years and has sworn countless times in the past 30 years to preside over the destruction of the United States…’
The CIA went into Iran to help overthrow a democratically deleted government and then installed the Shah, whose regime was any day as brutal as that of Saddam. What does she think, the Iranians should go around worshiping the Americans after that?
The Americans helped Saddam in his war against Iran. There are photographs of Rumsfeld visiting with Saddam. Assume China helps Panama in a war against Mexico. China then invades the US and Mexicans come across the border to attack the Chinese, would we rail against the Mexicans. Mona Charen is clueless. the Iranians are just seeking payback for our past actions. I don’t like their attacks, but I can hardly blame them. They are now helping their ally. Iraq has become an ally of Iran with the fall of Saddam. That’s what Joel Mark calls a success.
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Please “Paulbots”, forget about JOEL MARK. Cant you see that he is too far gone? He probably wants to keep us occupied with arguing with him so we dont voice our opinion on any other sites. Notice that when he becomes more active in responses, PASTOR ROY isn’t. Then when PASTOR ROY is actively responding, JOEL MARK isn’t? Switch up your gameplan you delphi technique change agents…im onto u. You’ve been compromised
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Maybe Mickey Mclean could take these posts and present them to the editor. There are two opposing views here that deal with the Christian’s role in promoting and supporting war. There are four or five questions that I asked about a war against Iran that nobody on the other side of the divide wants to answer. Maybe the editor could get someone to address these questions. They are vitally important in the context of a war with Iran. The issue of Christian Zionism, kind of nw to me, is also a topic worthy of discovery.
Just as an aside, I once called Joel Belz, then the editor of World Magazine, and left him a message, or actual spoke to him, I can’t remember. I told him some very important information about a fraud that was being perpetrated on the Christian community. He told the media that the biggest mistake he ever made in his journalistic career was not to follow up with me.
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How funny, above I referred to Schofield as an Oxford Professor. Nothing of the sorts. This video I linked earlier tells a fascinating tale of Schofield, again exposing my gullibility as a Christian to trust “the brethren,” rather the con artist.
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Sleuth51,
If I may, please consider reading the book Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? by Keith Mathison.
Brief but substantive chapters, very readable.
The fundamental issue: Is there a basic discontinuity between God’s plan(s) as revealed in the the Old and New Testaments, or a basic continuity?
The whole idea of “we must bless the nation of Israel with military assistance so that God will bless us” that’s so popular among American (usually) evangelicals … it’s unbiblical (and thus false), and will result in bad, unintended consequences.
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Sovereign1, welcome to the blog, but please understand that this is a community of people, many who have posted here for years. Both Joel Mark and Pastor Roy, as well as myself and a few others on this thread, are part of this community. You’re welcome to join in of course, but please be respectful and don’t start accusing those who have been here for quite a long time of things like being the same person. You do not know of which you speak.
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Thanks Frank. I will get hold of that book.
I have never really gotten into the topic of Israel, America and the church. All I know that both the Jewish people and the Palestinians are descendants of Abraham and ever since those ancient days, they have been at odds with each other. It is very difficult to come to a proper objective understanding of the conflicts in Israel and Palestine.
I watch Al Jazeera on the Internet a lot, because it gives important insights that the US media will never broadcast. Surprisingly, there are many Jews (often on Al Jazeera) who are not Zionists and speak up for the Palestinians. Again, I’m not choosing sides. I want both Jew and Palestinian to come to the knowledge of Christ.
I often have people quote the verse you refer to. I then then tell them that I don’t hate Israel. I just don’t want to get embroiled in their wars, conflicts and defense. They they say, God has blessed us because we are a friend to Israel. In what way? Financially? Our per capita income is well below a country like Switzerland who remained neutral in WWII. Germany is much wealthier today that Britain.
We are $15 trillion in debt and, other than Ron Paul, there is nobody with a plan to stop the debt going to $20 trillion or more. Our wealth and blessing is an illusion. Spiritually we are bankrupt. Sunday Night Football has caused churches to close their doors on Sundays. The gospel can’t compete against football. Secularism is rife. Holiness is a foreign concept. I don’t know, if this is God’s blessing after we fought a ten year $2 trillion war to protect Israel, then I’m the Taj Mahal.
Yes, the whole doctrine is false, unbiblical and leads to terrible consequences. One billion Muslims need to be reached for Christ. With the Christian church embracing Zionism, you basically cut yourself off from ever reaching them. Political expediency supersedes spiritual imperatives. Go into all the world has become, go into all the world an alienate nations. Of course the moral issues of supporting wars based on these dubious notions put forth by the neo-cons are not to be diminished.
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Thank you NWJULIANA. I appreciate your views and comments and I think your a very kind woman. I must say, however, that unless you have met these people personally, one can truly never know who an infiltrator is, especially in forums like these where the delphi technique is often used. Im just making an honest observation. Besides that, I would also like for you to come to my defense when they call me names as well, not because I have or have not been on here for awhile, but because as a Christian there should not be a double standard when it comes to defending someone. Back to the issue at hand, I think it’s time for peace to be promoted in the debates instead of war. Highly unlikely tho.
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SLEUTH wrote; “Bush’s demands about WMDs were fake, a pure pretense.”:
You may think you are God and can judge the heart, but you are not.
Was every leader of each of the 30 nation coalition a fake?
Was Colin Powell, who believed it too, a fake?
How about Hillary Clinton and all the Democrats who joined the Republicans in congress tosanction the use of force? All fakes?
And Ron Paul is the only denct one in all of politics, eh?
This is judgmental idolatry on your part, SLEUTH. Has it ever occured to you that you may be wrong?
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SLEUTH51 wrote; “Oh, you don’t want war with Iran? Really? How could I have been so mistaken?”
No, I don’t want war with Iran. Yes, really. But in addition, I am deeply grieved that Irna is at war with us already whether you know it or not. They have been for too long. Acts of war abound from their side and it does not stop whatever we do.
How could you be so mistaken? Search your own heart for an answer. All I can tell you is that you are quite mistaken about my views and what I want.
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I am a man who has been a sincere pacifist and came to change my mind around age 35. I understand and respect people on all ends of the spectrum regarding war. I have served in ministry with people at all points. I just don’t like falsehoods about America, an exceptional nation with many brave men and women who have sacrificed much in missions that get twisted afterwards falsely by politicians for political gain. I don’t like politicians who twist military missions for political gain be then lefto or right or anti-war or pro-just war as a last resort. I also don’t like making that accusation when evidence does not justify it.
One thing I know for sure is that what Ron Paul said in the debate about us killing a million was flat out false and no nuance can justify it. If you oppose the war, do so on solid ground. What Paul said was quick-sand.
I have cheered much of what Ron Paul has said on small gov’t and domestic policies.
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I have a question for JOEL MARK and PASTOR ROY and the others of you who are adamantly opposed to Ron Paul. I have heard that some polls show him gaining significantly on Newt and Mitt. If by some chance he gets the Republican nomination, will you vote for him?
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Joel Mark,
First, here are Ron Paul’s words from the last debate:
I’m not sure if your complaint is with the number of Iraqi deaths as cited by Rep. Paul, or that his comment claims/implies that the US has killed a million Iraqis.
If it’s the first, I refer you to the explanations for the “million-plus” count from one website, Just Foreign Policy . org, here and here.
If it’s the second, I do not think that Rep. Paul is actually asserting that a million Iraqis have died at the hands of US forces. Having watched Rep. Paul for yearsandyears, I think that he is saying that a million Iraqis have died because the US launched an unjust war in Iraq. I also think that he could have said it more clearly than he did.
For the sake of argument, however, let us assume that “only” 100,000 or “only” 600,000 Iraqis have died after the 2003 invasion.
If that invasion was unjust, and executed for contrived and trumped-up reasons, it simply doesn’t matter whether a thousand, or a hundred-thousand, or a thousand thousand Iraqis died.
Ron Paul’s main point is that, just as the steadily increasing (and false) accusations against Iraq resulted in an invasion, war and 8-year occupation that resulted in unnecessary deaths and injuries on all sides, so the steadily increasing (and false) accusations against Iran will have similar results.
We have no excuses. The BushCo rationale for invading Iraq is still fresh in everyone’s memory. We must not get snookered again into doing something rash — no, unjust — against Iran.
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Joel Mark: One thing I know for sure is that what Ron Paul said in the debate about us killing a million was flat out false and no nuance can justify it. If you oppose the war, do so on solid ground. What Paul said was quick-sand.”
Answer my question: How did a million-plus Iraqis die, if it were not for our invasion? But if you want to argue that the real number is 100,000, what’s your point? Do you think that 100,000 abortions are not OK, but killing 100,000 Iraqis was OK? This is the Christian hypocrisy that everyone finds so galling. War is not pro-life.
Bush sent our troops on a mission under false pretenses (lies) to effectively annex Iraq’s oil fields for the benefit US oil interests. True or false? (Mission failed, spectacularly. You can buy a lot of oil for one trillion dollars without the loss of one life. When a politician miscalculates, we reelect him, because its our patriot duty to support our leaders during times of war.) This had noting to do with a just war, where we defended ourselves against our enemies. Prior to the war there were no Al Qaeda. Even if there were, invading a country for that reason is ridiculous. if so, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia – not necessary, we already have their oil and a compliant leader in place.
To gain the support of the Religious Right Bush rallied the John Hagees and their Christian Zionists, knowing that if they are told that this war will make Israel safer, he’d get re-elected. Bachmann, et al are playing the same card to bait voters.
This preventive war theory drawing on WWII isolationism is also a bunch of hubris. We had no truck with Europe’s 1914 war, but Wilson was persuaded to commit US forces in WWI. After 500,000 Americans died for a war in Europe that accomplished nothing, the American people said never again. That is what gave birth to isolationism: the experience of WWI.
Now Joel Mark, tell us in plain English, how many Iraqis died as a consequence of our invasion? (Go to Just Foreign Policy’s website for help) Zero? Actually, more than a million, but cut that by 90% and we get 100,000. Do you like that number? Should Paul have said 100,000, as if that would sanitize the war. Were there some pregnant women among the dead? If so, their babies were effectively aborted.
Now tell us for what purpose did 100,000 Iraqis (a lot more, but I’m not going to stand on ceremony) and 8,500 US soldiers die? To replace an anti-Iranian regime and install a pro-Iranian regime. To turn a nation who was at worst ambivalent towards the US, wholly against the US with them now burning our flag in their streets. To turn a country in which no acts of terror of any note took place (none to my knowledge, but maybe there were a few, but definitely not perpetrated by Al Qaeda) into a terrorist haven. To open Iraqi oil fields to the Chinese, Italians, Turks and South Koreans, countries that paid no price for this privilege. Rationalize these death.
The only way to counter falsehoods is to put the truth on the table. Here is your opportunity to rebut the “falsehoods” I posted. If not, then I’m right, and by implication Ron Paul, and you a wrong. Up to now you have refused to answer these questions.
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SLEUTH51 wrote; “Oh, you don’t want war with Iran? Really? How could I have been so mistaken?”
John Mark wrote: “No, I don’t want war with Iran. Yes, really. But in addition, I am deeply grieved that Irna is at war with us already whether you know it or not. They have been for too long. Acts of war abound from their side and it does not stop whatever we do.
How could you be so mistaken? Search your own heart for an answer. All I can tell you is that you are quite mistaken about my views and what I want.”
You have the wrong end of the stick. I already answered you. Iran is “at war with us,” because we started the fight, back when our CIA infiltrated Iran and facilitated the overthrow of a legitimate democratically elected regime and installed the Shah who imposed a brutal regime, one that made Saddam look like a Sunday School teacher.
I guess if Russia interferes with the political process of another country and helps install a dictator, we should take umbrage if the citizens of that country is anti-Russian. Then if Russia shoots down one of their civilian plane that kills over 300 innocent civilians, they should also just shrug their shoulders. And then if they are at war with a neighboring country, who invaded them, and Russia provides aid and comfort to their enemy they should just forget and forgive. Oh, you wouldn’t for a moment think so. These evil Russian, you would say. Well, that’s exactly what we did against Iran and now you blame Iran for their hostility towards us. Ron Paul would bury the hatchet and bring peace among nations. Iran would voluntarily abandon their nuclear ambitions, because in Ron Paul they will find and honest broker, not someone beholden to Christian Zionists.
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Joel Mark, why don’t you man up and answer my questions, but while I hold my breath, I’ll answer yours.
SLEUTH wrote; “Bush’s demands about WMDs were fake, a pure pretense.”:
You may think you are God and can judge the heart, but you are not.”
Answer: Apart from you, there is nobody in the world who would deny that either Bush was incredibly naive, or he was only to happy to have WMDs as a pretense for war. Besides, as Christians, we should not support regime change wars, especially not if we parade our pro-life stance. The Iraq war outcome, outlined earlier by me, is ample evidence that these regime change wars are unmitigated tragedies.
“Was every leader of each of the 30 nation coalition a fake?”
I already answered this. One of the thirty was Spain, who immediately withdrew after terrorists attacked them. Since then the Spaniards have been safe and secure. Italy, also a NATO partner, learned from the Spanish experience and also backed off. Some countries like Australia, Canada and many others (who can afford universal healthcare for their citizens) spend very little on defense, because they rely on our military protection. Consequently, they committed the odd couple of dozen troops – pure tokenism, gets them out of the barracks, but in no ways represents a genuine commitment to the cause. Don’t underestimate Washington’s ability to strong-arm our trading partners. The citizens of these countries had no say in whether they wanted to join the war or not. So, take this “justification” off of your list.
Joel Mark: Was Colin Powell, who believed it too, a fake?
At the 2007 Aspen Ideas Festival in Colorado, Powell revealed that he had spent two and a half hours explaining to President Bush “the consequences of going into an Arab country and becoming the occupiers.” During this discussion, he insisted that the US appeal to the United Nations first, but if diplomacy failed, he would support the invasion: “I also had to say to him that you are the President, you will have to make the ultimate judgment, and if the judgment is this isn’t working and we don’t think it is going to solve the problem, then if military action is undertaken I’m with you, I support you.”
Hence, if you are a Washington insider, living off the fat of the land, you are not going to allow reason to undermine your meal ticket. His support proves nothing.
“How about Hillary Clinton and all the Democrats who joined the Republicans in congress tosanction the use of force? All fakes?”
You made a mistake to call on Hillary to support your cause. This is from Newsmax”
“For the first time since she voted to authorize the Iraq war three years ago, 2008 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is now saying that vote was a mistake – in an apparent move to pacify growing dissatisfaction with her position among the Democratic Party’s left-wing base.
“If Congress had been asked [to authorize the war], based on what we know now, we never would have agreed,” Clinton said, in an email sent to her supporters on Tuesday.
“While saying she took full responsibility for her error, Clinton repeatedly insisted that she had been misled by “false” intelligence on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction presented by the Bush administration.
“Citing “assurances they gave that they would first seek to resolve the issue of weapons of mass destruction peacefully through United Nations sponsored inspections,” Clinton lamented: “Their assurances turned out to be empty ones.”
Oh my! Oh my! Joel Mark?
“And Ron Paul is the only decent one in all of politics, eh?”
Based on a mountain of evidence, Ron Paul has no equal among his peers.
“This is judgmental idolatry on your part, SLEUTH. Has it ever occured to you that you may be wrong?”
This is righteous judgement. I have repeatedly begged you to answer my questions above, but you refuse. I might be wrong and I am giving you every opportunity to better inform me. You attempt here has backfired not so? My answers support an anti-war position far better than your articles of faith in the Bush doctrine.
Now answer my questions that I have posted multiple times. Feel free to exhort your fellows, especially those in the Christian Zionist cult, to come to your aid.
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If by some chance he gets the Republican nomination, will you vote for him?
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No, My faith would not permit me to vote for him.
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Sleuth51 – As a Canadian I am not involved in US politics in any way, but you should know that the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” is a fraud and a forgery, pure propoganda used to justify both the pogroms of Czarist Russia and the Holocaust of the Nazis – a summary of sources and proof of forgery can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
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Sleuth51,
I agree with phos. (I didn’t see the PEZ reference earlier, or else I would have commented.)
I do think there is an unbiblical understanding of both contemporary Israel and contemporary Jews among many believers — usually American evangelicals — today.
Along with the Mathison book, may I suggest you explore http://againstdispensationalism.com/
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DEBRA, I did not respect the presumptive way you introduced your question.
But NO, absolutely not. Ron Paul is to the far left of Barack Obama on foreign policy and he admitted that plainly in the debate. I agree with Ron Paul on many things and I could even vote for him for congress. But I could never vote for him for Commander-in-Chief. It’s not even close. He is completyely unqualifed for that role.
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Ron Paul’s words in the last debate:
Paul: “If [Michelle Bachmann] thinks we live in a dangerous world, she ought to think back when I was drafted in the 1962 with nuclear missiles in Cuba.”
Bachmann does not question that dangers existed back then too. This misses her point. He’s arguing straw here.
Paul: “And you’re trying to dramatize this, that we have to go and — and treat Iran like we’ve treated Iraq and kill a million Iraqis…”
This was a gross misrepresentation of what Bachmann believes and what she was saying AND it was a vicious and poisonous lie.
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FRANK INSPOKANE wrote: <i?"I’m not sure if your complaint is with the number of Iraqi deaths as cited by Rep. Paul, or that his comment claims/implies that the US has killed a million Iraqis."
That’s because you are not listening to me at all, FRANK, not in the slightest. Maybe you are not capable. But I’ve stated my concerned clearly and often.
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Sleuth51,
One more — I just found this as I perused the site I linked to above:
Excerpts from O. Palmer Robertson’s The Israel of God.
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I’ve had it with knee-jerk America haters who will lie egregiously (and believe things they KNOW are lies) to gin up more hate on false pretenses. It’s vile and juvenile.
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Debra (289): I have a question for JOEL MARK and PASTOR ROY and the others of you who are adamantly opposed to Ron Paul.
Joel Mark (297): DEBRA, I did not respect the presumptive way you introduced your question.
Frank: “Presumptive”? Really?!
You are adamantly opposed to a Ron Paul presidency, aren’t you?
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Oh, BTW:
300!
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Frank (290): I’m not sure if your complaint is with the number of Iraqi deaths as cited by Rep. Paul, or that his comment claims/implies that the US has killed a million Iraqis.
Joel Mark (297): [Y]ou are not listening to me at all, FRANK, not in the slightest. Maybe you are not capable. But I’ve stated my concerned clearly and often.
Frank: That’s the thanks I get for a) asking you at (290) to clarify your position (you’re either saying one, or the other, or even both); and b) expressing my take on the matter?
I gave you references for the numbers he used.
I also explained:
I didn’t get all emotional or go on a rant. I didn’t call you any names or impugn your motives. I engaged you … let’s see, what’s that word you like to use so often? … respectfully. Yeah, that’s it.
Interestingly, several other posters understood that (despite Ron Paul’s admittedly clumsy way of saying it) he was asserting that a million-plus Iraqis died because we invaded Iraq with no legitimate causus belli.
Of course many innocent Iraqis were the victims of A.Q. fighters. Heck, I’ll even stipulate to that claim.
The fact remains: Innocent Iraqis were not routinely dying at the hands of A.Q. until we after invaded.
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WestPointGrad (180): Even before the war in Iraq, our sanctions were responsible for the deaths of half a million of their children.
Joel Mark (185): More false and hateful blame for the USA, while excusing and sympathizing with Nazi fascist Islamist terrorists at war with us.
Frank: Have you forgotten so soon?
Notice that Albright did not deny Stahl’s assertion? I mean, Albright didn’t call Stahl an America hater, or claim that the “Nazi fascist Islamist terrorists” caused the deaths of half a million Iraqi children.
Them stubborn facts again, huh, JM?
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@JOEL MARK
Your comments indicate a deep disrespect for our active duty military. You have shown no regard for their sacrifices. There is no sympathy in your words for the families who have lost over 6,000 service men and women in these illegal wars of aggression, or the 30,000 with permanent, life-changing disabilities.
One of the earliest lessons we learn at West Point is that war is to be considered only as the measure of last resort when all other efforts have been exhausted. In my experience, no group of people hate war more than warriors because they’re the only ones who truly understand it.
It’s easy for you to send other people’s children into the grinder, isn’t it? Since you’re so eager to start another war, I suggest that you enlist and learn how to put a bullet into God’s image.
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I agree with Frank that RP could have certainly worded what he said better. Good grief, can the man never stumble over words and their intended meaning? I do it all the time in casual settings; I’m not on national television like Ron Paul, who was in a pivotal debate where the moderators are clearly not on his side (rolling their eyes, treating him like “crazy Uncle Ron” as Jon Stewart says), with bells dinging left and right.
Certainly there’s got to be a better debate format than what Fox news provides.
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New grassroots video: “Have trouble with Ron Paul’s Foreign Policy?”
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If believing that God brought the nation of Israel back from the dead and placed her on the land again made one a ‘Christian Zionist’, then you could count me in. But I suspect Zionism is a little more complicated than that, isn’t it. I don’t embrace many labels or the ‘isms’ that go with them. God has not indicated that He is finished with Israel or, indeed, that He ever will be; and He’s allowed her to go through the wringer, and probably will continue to do so until she calls on her Messiah.
But generally speaking, I still support Ron Paul’s policy of non-intervention—(though probably not quite to the extent that he proposes it.) These days our ‘help’ to Israel is often not very helpful anyway. God gave the nation of Israel a boundary, and He never rescinded it. Israel has a God, and the time is coming that they will have to call on Him to survive in the land He gave them. I don’t see that they were ever intended to stay on the land for long without Him.
And Israel is not the only one who needs to call on her God either. We need to stop playing God abroad and take care of our own house—which is currently going up in flames.
PS. I’ve heard little more than the basic thesis of Hagee’s dual covenant theology, but what I have heard is just sheer heresy. And I can’t think that it’s a widely held belief among Evangelicals.
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Pastor Roy and Joel Mark, thanks for your response to my question. So perhaps Gingrich is wrong when he says anyone one the Republican debate stage would make a better president than Obama? Maybe, maybe not—it would be hard to be a worse president for sure. From the prospective of foreign policy, Obama doesn’t seem to have a problem foraging among the nations—as long as it’s under the banner of the UN. I don’t see that as a credit to the US at all.
But the fact is, each has to follow his own conscience and best judgment in these matters. The outcome is in God’s hands.
Peace to all.
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I just saw on “Morning Joe” that Ron Paul is now leading the poll in Iowa.
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I will say it here and clear: If Ron Paul wins the nomination, I will vote for him.
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Debra – I believe Ron Paul’s views on drugs, marriage are just as wrong.
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I have an eye problem that requires me to enlarge the font. I deal with tiny blind spots in the macula and cannot see a whole word. I mistakenly thought that DEBRA used the word “obsessed” when she actually used the word “opposed” in a post above. Sorry for that, DEBRA, and I do respect your question.
Again, I would never vote for Ron Paul for Commander-in-Chief and the only way I could vote for him in congress is if the alternative was a leftist Democrat or irresponsible spender of the Obama variety.
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FRANK IN SPOKANE, if you are not sure what my complaint is, then you have not been listening to me. At #305, you show that you will twist anything to confirm a vicious hatred for the United States. The sanctions were an alternative to war. They were designed to deal with a horrific situation to resolve it without going to war. Are you agaist that?
But for you and for Ron Paul sychophants, any child who dies on earth justifies accusing America of killing them! Forget the context and who is actually killing them, just blame America.
I’ve had it with hateful liars and that is my attitude toward Ron Paul.
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Isaiah 5:20 reads:
“Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.”
This is what Ron Paul and his followers are doing. Any time Iranian trained infiltrators or other insurgents or Al Qaeda killed a bunch of innocent Iraqis over the last decade, Ron Paul and his lemmings just mindlessly ticked those murders off as blood on America’ hands. Yet, we were there to protect them.
It was a 30-nation coalition that deposed Saddam and we stayed to prevent Iraq from spiraling into chaos, which specifically was Al Qaeda’s mission along with Iran’s mission (yes, they can and have worked together or conjointly). We did it the hard way, with boots on the ground instead of random bombing the danger spots. The terrorists were hiding behind women and children and we did all we could to avoid collateral casualties, at greater sacrifice to ourselves. But Iran and Al Qaeda DID want as many casualties as possible and they acted specifically with that mission in play. In contrast, our mission (as allies with Iraq) was to STOP the mayhem. We provided humanitarian aid, built schools and hospitals, rebuilt infra-structure, provided security at great cost to ourselves and trained Iraqi troops and police. Iraq was our ally. We didn’t do the killing, the terrorists did. Even the collateral damage from our efforts against terrorists must be blamed on the cowardly terrorists who made it necessary and were hiding behind babies on purpose.
Ron Paul did NOT just make a verbal gaff. He considers US the terrorists and us the Terrorist state, killing a million Iraqis. That’s sick and poisonous. And it’s a lie.
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WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “Your comments indicate a deep disrespect for our active duty military.”
That is twisted, sir, and it does not deserve a response. You are blowing smoke dishonestly here because you don’t have an argument. I am not the one falsely accusing our military of killing a million Iraqis, Ron Paul is. I am the one defending their honor (and defending the truth) and Ron Paul is besmurching their honor falsely. I have zero respect for your comments here, sir.
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Ron Paul did NOT just make a verbal gaff. He considers US the terrorists and us the Terrorist state, killing a million Iraqis. That’s sick and poisonous. And it’s a lie
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Those views of ROn Pual feed to groups those who are anti-war and believe that we are setting up a empire we are not. He also feeds the far far far right groups K K K and other groups like them. That believe the Government is the enemy controled by the Jewish People and the UN.
Both groups are very dangerous groups that views if come to control would lead to the destruction of this nation.
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Joel Mark wrote: “That is twisted, sir, and it does not deserve a response.”
So is this, Joel Mark: “He considers US the terrorists and us the Terrorist state, killing a million Iraqis.” It’s sick and poisonous, and is a lie.
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NW JULIANA,
I have solid basis reason for my statement and have made it clear and WESTPOINTGRAD had no basis at all for his twisted insult. That makes a difference for reasonable people. I did not deserve his insult and Ron Paul did earm my criticism clearly.
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If we killed a million Iraqis (and we certainly did not), then we are the wiorst terrorists state of them all. That’s my conclusion from Ron Paul’s up-side-down view.
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Joel also Ron Pual did a little rewriting of histroy in the debate. He spoke about how JFK stop the missle from coming to Cuba because he talked to the Soviet Union. He forgot about the Navel Blockage we did.
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That JFK backed up his phone call with the Soviet Union with Military Force.
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Exactly my point: That’s your conclusion, Joel Mark. But what you interpreted was not what Dr. Paul meant in what he said. It has been said over and over to you, but you’re not acknowledging it: Because of an unconstitutional war in Iraq that the United States has waged, a million people have died. We went into Iraq through unconstitutional means, even though they had not attacked us, and as a result one million people have died. That’s just a statement of fact, plain and simple. I don’t understand how you’re that reactive over a simple statement of fact.
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Because of an unconstitutional war in Iraq that the United States has waged, a million people have died. We went into Iraq through unconstitutional means, even though they had not attacked us, and as a result one million people have died. —-
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Not true the war was constitutional regardless if you like it or not. Mr. Bush went to Congress, Congress gave permission to go to war. So the war was legal. Unlike Mr. Obama war on the Lbya People. Where he did not go to Congress, he just order the deaths of Libya People.
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Ron Paul has a major problem his views are extreme regardless how people want to present them.
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Also on the Iraq issue Most of the Senators and House Memebers were in the Government longer then Mr. Bush was in the White House and they believe Saddam was doing what Mr. Bush claim. Before Mr. Bush present his case.
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Joel Mark, I will say this only once, you are drastically overconfident in Iran’s military capability. If and, according to the prophet Ezekiel, when Iran attacks Israel, with several allies I might add, Iran will get slaughtered. No nation has yet succeeded at invading Israel, and none will be succeeding.
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Pastor Roy (325): Not true the war was constitutional regardless if you like it or not. Mr. Bush went to Congress, Congress gave permission to go to war.
Frank: According to the Constitution, Congress first declares war, after which the president must prosecute it, as Commander in Chief.
In other words, Congress does not “give permission” for the president to go to war. As the representatives of the people of the United States, Congress orders him to do so.
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Pastor Roy,
And if you have any doubt that “permission” to go to war and an actual constitutional declaration of war are different things, pay close attention to the words of the late Rep. Henry Hyde:
A Declaration of War isn’t “permission.” It’s a lawful order.
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NWJULIANA claims that what I interpreted was not what Dr. Paul meant in what he said. That’s weak.
Nonsense. He said it. Deal with it. Be honest (I’m not holding my breath). Show some integrity! He blamed America for killing a million Iraqis. That’s a vile and poisonous lie! He parrots the terrorists lines to justify their alleged grievances against us. Then he turns to dishonestly deny that they even said what we all know they said (see #271). Ron Paul’s sympathies are not only with terrorists but also with Iran and he thinks that if they had nuclear weapons, we would “respect them” more (he said that too in the debate).
And Pastor Roy is right, the congress did sanction our use of force in the 30-nation coalition to depose Saddam.
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Again:
“Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20.
This is what Ron Paul and his followers are doing. Any time Iranian trained infiltrators or other insurgents or Al Qaeda killed a bunch of innocent Iraqis over the last decade, Ron Paul and his lemmings just mindlessly ticked those murders off as blood on America’ hands. Yet, we were there to protect them.
It was a 30-nation coalition that deposed Saddam and we stayed to prevent Iraq from spiraling into chaos, which specifically was Al Qaeda’s mission along with Iran’s mission (yes, they can and have worked together or conjointly). We did it the hard way, with boots on the ground instead of random bombing the danger spots. The terrorists were hiding behind women and children and we did all we could to avoid collateral casualties, at greater sacrifice to ourselves. But Iran and Al Qaeda DID want as many casualties as possible and they acted specifically with that mission in play. In contrast, our mission (as allies with Iraq) was to STOP the mayhem. We provided humanitarian aid, built schools and hospitals, rebuilt infra-structure, provided security at great cost to ourselves and trained Iraqi troops and police. Iraq was our ally. We didn’t do the killing, the terrorists did. Even the collateral damage from our efforts against terrorists must be blamed on the cowardly terrorists who made it necessary and were hiding behind babies on purpose.
Ron Paul accuses America of killing a million Iraqis. That’s sick and poisonous. And it’s a lie.
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Joel Mark (331): And Pastor Roy is right, the congress did sanction our use of force in the 30-nation coalition to depose Saddam.
Frank: Sanction, shmanction.
The plain fact of the matter is Congress did not declare war, did they?
Rather, they said to the to the President, “Use your judgment.”
The proof is right there, in the record of what happened in the House Foreign Affairs Committeeon October 3, 2002.
It’s right there, in Henry Hyde’s own words.
Here is another problem facing Ron Paul an his desire to close down all the Military Post Over Seas. Where is he going to put these soldiers? Where are the jobs going to be coming from to support all the adult family members coming home? What about the rooms in the schools and day cares? Who is going to pay for the closing down of the Post Over Seas and the transportation of all the equipment?
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The fact of matter Congress gave Mr. Bush to use Military Action in Iraq so the Conflict was legal no matter how the Anti-Bush crowd was to scream and yell about it.
If Ron Paul was in charge Saddam would still be alive and the rape rooms would still be open.
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What is going to happen when those nations, we have abound turn to Germany, Russia, China to take over those bases.
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More fodder for Jon Stewart.
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Economic sanctions on rouge nations promoting terror or egregious injustice are what we implement when we DON’t want to go to war. When sanctions fail across the board, then conflict can become a last resort. I blame the rouge terrorist-supporting nations for this. Ron Paul blames us all the way. If we apply sanctions, he accuses us of killing innocents. If we go to war, he accuses us of killing the very innocents that the other side is killing. He hates us irrationally.
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Joel Mark, I’m not even going to read your comments on this topic anymore for awhile. That is untrue and uncalled for (your bolded statement). I’ve believed better about you in the past, but that’s just utter crazy talk, man.
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Pastor Roy (336): What is going to happen when those nations, we have abound [sic -- abandoned?] turn to Germany, Russia, China to take over those bases.
Frank: Germany?!
Really?!
The Shrub was outta his flea-bitten brain when he declared Iran, Iraq and North Korea an “axis of evil.”
Plumb outta his flea-bitten brain. (Or maybe just crazy like a fox, considering he’d had Saddam in his sights since Day 1 of his administration.)
So Pastor Roy, are you saying that Russia, China … and Germany now comprise some new “axis of evil”?
Earth to Roy: Germany has been our ally since the Berlin Airlift and Marshall Plan.
Witness the ultimate fear and distrust that is bred in extreme cases of American Exceptionalism.
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Pastor Roy,
Do you actually oppose Germany taking control of the US military bases there, if our forces should leave them?
If so: Whose country are those bases in, anyways?
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Yeah, JM.
Those rouge nations are the worst.
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Pastor Roy (336): What is going to happen when those nations, we have abound [sic -- abandoned?] turn to Germany, Russia, China to take over those bases.
Frank: Do you realize how condescending that attitude is?
You evidently don’t think that those nations we [ahem] “abound” (
) are able or willing to defend themselves.
They had a name for that kind of setup in the roaring twenties:
Protection racket.
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Thankfully, this kind of superficial, out-of-context analysis of the ME wars wouldn’t make it through Command and General Staff College. I can’t even imagine a fourth-year cadet being so naive as to neglect consideration of U.S. interventions going back to 1953 when our CIA orchestrated the overthrow of the democratically elected government of PM Mosaddegh.
It’s been impossible to have a factual conversation in this thread. I don’t care to debate MSM talking points or the opinions of indifferent armchair generals who have no problem playing with real lives as if these wars are some kind of video game.
The latest examples…
“If Ron Paul was in charge Saddam would still be alive…” Maybe, but then so would thousands of Americans, and tens of thousands of Americans would not have been scarred for life. But, hey, it’s just a video game, right? They’re not your family members so it really doesn’t matter.
“Here is another problem facing Ron Paul an his desire to close down all the Military Post Over Seas. Where is he going to put these soldiers? Where are the jobs going to be coming from to support all the adult family members coming home? What about the rooms in the schools and day cares? Who is going to pay for the closing down of the Post Over Seas and the transportation of all the equipment?”
Is this a serious question? Do you have any idea how much it costs to maintain our personnel and bases overseas? A fraction of that money would pay for everything in your list as those personnel continue receiving their pay Stateside. We have so many bases in the U.S. that dozens of them have already been closed with more on the chopping block. Look up BRAC.
More silliness – some people in here can’t even tell the difference between Congressional declaration and abdication. The U.S. hasn’t been involved in a legal war since WW II. When is the toleration for law-breaking in the Executive Branch going to stop? Answer: when we get a President who will actually take his oath of office seriously. Ron Paul 2012.
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Ron Paul is a strong advocate of the Constitution, and is a man of substance, consistency and integrity. Therefore, he is a very attractive candidate who could very well be the surprise of this race. In my view, he just needs to be careful of foot-in-the-mouth syndrome. Some of his recent remarks make Perry’s gaffes seem like nothing. The mis-wording in saying we killed a million Iraqis is one thing (in such sensitive issues one needs to be very careful with his wording) – intentionally saying that Michelle Bachmann hates Muslims is quite another. I really appreciate his passion in going against the flow on some of the most important issues of the day, but he can’t allow the blow-back to cause him to react emotionally or even irrationally. Representative Paul needs our prayers in these important days.
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NW JULIANA, I respect your right of choice on who to read or not. But I don’t think you are clear on what is “utter crazy talk” if you still support Ron Paul. “Utter crazy talk” describes many of Ron Paul’s comments quite well. That is my objection to him.
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Remember Barack Obama’s apology for America tour? Remember the horrific accusations made about America by Obama’s pastor and mentor for 20 years? Remember Attorney General Eric Holder calling America “a nation of cowards”? All these were mild compared to the unfounded accusations of and apologies for America we have heard and will continue to get from Ron Paul.
1. Dec. 15, 2011 at the Republican Primary debate in Sioux City, Iowa, Ron Paul falsely accused America of killing a million Iraqis.
2. Ron Paul routinely blames America for what our terrorist enemies think of us and do to us and to others. He has repeatedly blamed the USA for terrorist attacks, including 9/11. Vicious attacks on us and on innocents are summarized by Ron Paul supporters as “blowback” as if we earned them.
3. Ron Paul blames us for Saddam Hussein (we gave him some aid during Iraq’s war with Iran in the 80s) even though France and Russia gave him 20 times more than we ever did throughout his reign. Saddam was always far more a Soviet and French puppet than anyone else.
4. I have heard Ron Paul accuse America of creating our enemies around the world, blaming us for their murderous hatred. He sympathizes with and excessively excuses our enemies. He said at the Sioux City debate that we would respect Iran more if they had nukes.
5. Ron Paul speaks of the US “desecrating” the lands that the jihadist terrorists claim as “holy.” That’s the terrorist line and Ron Paul parrots it and sanctions it.
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Support for Ron Paul is now 11%, up from 8% to 9% earlier in the month — marking the first time his support has been above 10% since mid-September
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/12/19/dead-heat-poll-romney-narrows-gingrich-gap?test=latestnews#ixzz1h6U85BJO
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Remember Jeremiah Wright, pastor of Obama’s Chicago church, explaining why the USA was attacked on 9/11. He said; “You cannot do terrorism on other people and expect it never to come back on you.” He continued: “America’s chickens are coming home to roost.”
This is no diiferent from what Ron Paul supporters have called “blowback.” That’s how they often explain terrorism directed to us as if we deserve it. These are irresponsible, offensive, dangerous and unjustified generalizations.
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More historically-challenged silliness. The term “blowback” was not invented by Ron Paul supporters. It is a CIA term first used in 1954 as a reference to the unintended harmful consequences of the federal government’s meddling in the internal affairs of Middle East countries and kept secret from the American people. Thus, when those countries or their defenders retaliate, the American people can’t put the results in proper context since they are completely unaware of how our interference motivated the retaliation. If you have an issue with the term “blowback”, take it up with those who invented the term and cause it – the CIA.
Do you find research to be a risky activity? Is that why you avoid it?
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You cannot do terrorism on other people and expect it never to come back on you.” He continued: “America’s chickens are coming home to roost.”
—
That does sound like something Ron Paul and his supporters would say.
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TYCHICUS,
I appreciate your post a lot, sir. It was honest. It reminds me that I actually agree with Ron Paul often when he speaks of smaller gov’t and cutting crazy spending. All my concerns over his foreign policy stand but I still appreciated your post.
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#350 – “The term ‘blowback’ was not invented by Ron Paul supporters.”
So? Who said it was? The fact remains that they use and abuse that term often and they mean it the same way Rev. Jeremiah Wright used it and they use it just as irresponsibly as Wright did.
“If you have an issue with the term “blowback”, take it up with those who invented the term and cause it – the CIA.”
Sir, if I have an issue with the word ‘blowback’ I will take it up with whomever I think uses it in an irresponsible and overextended way to sympathize with the wrong people, including terrorists.
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TYCHICUS wrote; “Representative Paul needs our prayers in these important days.”
This is true in the best way (as it is of me too) and I will do so. Despite my sharp disagreements with his comments and my conviction that such disagreement should be declared loud, clear and often, I do wish him personally, and his supporters, all the best. It is his public comments that I am responding to on this thread with oppostion and disagreement.
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So you think we should never expect any “blowback” when the FedGov incites revolutions or violates the consciences of people in other countries? Or is it that you don’t believe any agency of the FedGov would ever act in a way that could irritate or inflame citizens of other countries?
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#355 – I’m saying, sir, that 9/11 was NOT “blowback” in any legitimate sense. It (along with most everything the radical Islamists do) was sheer Islamo-fascist hate whipped up by mullahs and others for their own power and influence in their little realms. They do evil for their own evil reasons. Did you get that? They try to blame others and make excuses for their evil. Shame on Ron Paul for sympathizing with them and buying their lies. Many terrorist and Islamist leaders have learned that they can wield greater power over their people if they can keep them uninformed and angry at some distant enemy that they can blame for all their troubles. The 9/11 attacks were perpetrated on innocent people because the jihadists hate America and all she stands for, especially our advocacy of liberty and decency.
I’m saying that Ron Paul supporters use the term “blowback” illegitimately to excuse and rationalize the vicious terrorism that is directed at America.
Unfortunately, America also has politicians (like the mullahs and other Islamist leaders) who have learned that they can get a lot of mileage out of keeping their followers uninformed and angry at others. Telling us that we killed a million Iraqis is an example of a politicians trying to keep us too angry to think straight.
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Ah, now I understand the reason for your superficial analysis of these wars.
You think that 9/11 was committed for no particular reason except that Americans are nice people and the perps didn’t like our liberty (e.g., highest incarceration rate in the world) and decency (e.g., pornography capital of the world) so they decided to think up the best way to bring horrific death and destruction to the Middle East. Got it.
Never mind that according to the CIA the terrorists were “motivated by the impact of our foreign policy, particularly our support for tyranny”, citing U.S.-backed police state regimes such as Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Algeria, and America’s “unqualified support” for Israel. Also listed was the U.S. exploitation and dependence upon Middle Eastern oil, and the unwelcome presence and activities of American military in the region.
The 9/11 Commission Report agreed:
“One of the lessons of the long Cold War was that short-term gains in cooperating with the most repressive and brutal governments were too often outweighed by long-term setbacks for America’s stature and interests.” “America’s policy choices”, it adds, “have consequences.”
But according to you, they hate us because we’re nice people who love liberty and decency. We can do as we please with the governments of Middle Eastern countries, installing brutal dictators, building bases on land they consider sacred, cheating them out of billions of dollars in oil revenue, etc., and it will never cross the minds of their people to retaliate.
Your reasoning brings to mind a rather famous quote:
“War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” – George Orwell, 1984
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WESTPOINTGRAD wrote; “You think that 9/11 was committed for no particular reason except that Americans are nice people and the perps didn’t like our liberty…”
You can’t just listen objectively to an opposing view can you? Instead, you have to rephrase my position in some way that makes you feel better about dismissing it.
Merry Christmas.
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WESTPOINTGRAD,
I do not blame America for the 9/11 attacks nor do I think we killed a million Iraqis. I am just not that insanely hateful deceitful and mindless. I am also not a career politician like Ron Paul trying to gain power through manipulating people’s emotions with falsehoods.
ANY person and any nation on earth can selectively stew over alleged grievances. We live in a fallen world. But the boiling grievances of the evil jihadists terrorists are not credible in the big picture to any objective person. Ron Paul takes their side and I don’t. What they do to us is NOT “blowback.” What they do comes from the evil in their own hearts and from the worldview that enslves them. Jihad is their religious duty, regardless of what we did or do.
Honest dissent over our foreign policy is legit. But lying about us killing a million Iraqis is not legit. Many Iraqis were actually intentionally killed by our enemies while hiding behind babies and while we were there at great cost to ourselves to protect them. Blaming America for creating our enemies is illegitimate. None of this means we are perfect. But foreign policy and statecraft are complex matters and it is wrong to twist history to feed virulent hate and anger at an exceptionally great nation that has done more good in the world than any other in our lifetime.
P.S. We could have had all the Iraqi oil we wanted. It was in our possession and control and we gave it back.
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“You can’t just listen objectively to an opposing view can you? Instead, you have to rephrase my position in some way that makes you feel better about dismissing it.”
I listen objectively to opposing views all the time and frequently debate the issues online in comment pages such as this one. Most of the time I find intelligent, well-informed people who understand to some reasonable degree the limits of a Constitutional Republic, Just War theory, American history, economics, etc. What I find quite disturbing, however, are uninformed views such as yours on the Middle East – views that have gotten us into unnecessary wars, destroyed tens of thousands of American families, and left our economy in utter shambles with trillions of borrowed dollars in debt that will strangulate the economic security of future generations.
Merry Christmas to you, too.
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WESTPOINTGRAD, wars are costly. Families are indeed destroyed. But evil is real. Consequences of not going to war can, in some cases, be worse than war. Yes, that’s possible. Hitler is a case-in-point. I see the leaders of Iran as Hitlerian to say the least. But people can differ in assessing the dangers.
Because the costs are so high, it offends me greatly when power-seeking politicans like Ron Paul lie so egregiously about what we did in war and why. The accusation that we killed a million Iraqis is a sadistic lie, regardless of what you think of war and its costs.
So please be fair-minded about it.
As for the trillions of borrowed dollars that have us in debt, the last war (or all the wars brought on my jihadist terrorism was not the main cause of that at all. The vast bulk of that came from irresponsible domestic spending. We can agree that such borrowing is inexcuseable.
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