Another boy becoming a girl
In October I wrote about the story of Thomas Lobel, who was diagnosed with gender identity disorder at age 7 and began taking hormone-blockers in order to become a girl.
This past Sunday, The Boston Globe ran a front-page article titled “Led by the child who simply knew.” It’s the story of 14-year-old Wyatt, who, with the help of male hormone-blockers, now looks like a girl and has renamed herself Nicole. Wyatt/Nicole has an identical twin brother, Jonas, and in the photo accompanying the article, the physical differences between them are striking.
Wyatt/Nicole is being treated at the Gender Management Services Clinic at Children’s Hospital in Boston, where they treat numerous pre-adolescent children with gender identity issues. The program was started in 2007 by Norman Spack, an endocrinologist and David Diamond, a urologist, and was modeled on a Dutch program.
The Globe reports that Wyatt was vocal about wanting to be a girl since he was a toddler. Wyatt’s parents first took him to see Spack when he was 9 years old. In January, they’ll see him again to discuss the possibility of starting Wyatt/Nicole on estrogen. Once begun, that treatment cannot be reversed, and will leave the child infertile. Assuming the family decides to continue down this road, the final step would be gender reassignment surgery.
These are very serious considerations, especially in light of the fact that Spack told the newspaper that a “’very significant number of children who exhibit cross-gender behavior’ before puberty ‘do not end up being transgender.’”
Even more sobering is what Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, had to say on the subject. McHugh once oversaw the “sex change” program at Johns Hopkins, before it was disbanded several years ago. He wrote compellingly about it for First Things in an article I highly recommend. Here’s some of what he wrote:
“I have witnessed a great deal of damage from sex-reassignment. The children transformed from their male constitution into female roles suffered prolonged distress and misery as they sensed their natural attitudes. Their parents usually lived with guilt over their decisions—second-guessing themselves and somewhat ashamed of the fabrication, both surgical and social, they had imposed on their sons. As for the adults who came to us claiming to have discovered their ‘true’ sexual identity and to have heard about sex-change operations, we psychiatrists have been distracted from studying the causes and natures of their mental misdirections by preparing them for surgery and for a life in the other sex. We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it.”
It’s madness, as McHugh says. I don’t know what more to add.
(Thanks to the MassResistance website for its reporting on this story.)

















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back to top268 Comments to “Another boy becoming a girl”
It seems so premature to start the change process at so young an age. All other treatment therapies should be utilized up to the age of consent for the operation
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“We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it.”
Welcome to a fallen world.
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It’s a sad sad situation.
I think of Chastity Bono becoming a man, and it’s too sad.
Mentally that has to be a bad situation:
Can you marry a man who wants a woman?
Can you marry a homosexual woman who wants another woman?
Would a homosexual man want a man who is now a woman?
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The Globe article hints at one of the main problems with gender reassignment, even from the perspective of someone who doesn’t object on moral grounds. Regardless of how the body is altered, the patient is always going to be a transsexual, and acceptance of transsexuals is not widespread. Even progressives who have no problem with gender reassignment in the abstract are likely to balk when it comes to sexual intimacy with a transsexual.
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The article is quite revealing. Here’s one excerpt:
Sad. Very sad. Glad someone has the courage to stand for the truth, whatever it may be.
I’ve always contended that those who are born as men, genetically and physically, but receive a sex change operation, will never, ever be women, but a pathetic, mutilitated imitation of a woman.
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“Even progressives who have no problem with gender reassignment in the abstract are likely to balk when it comes to sexual intimacy with a transsexual.”
In the case of “most people” they don’t even want a casual relationship with someone known to be transgender. There is someone close to me that identifies as a woman, but was born a genetically and physically a male. That people will actively shun and insult him causes me a great deal of pain. To find someone who actually looks for the truth of the matter (in spite of the LBGT crowd) as this doctor at John Hopkins, gives me a great sense of relief, and possibly hope…
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Another excerpt describing the reaction from the LGBT crowd that’s entirely predictable:
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It seems to me that we get off on the wrong track whenever we begin to equate personal identity with physical characteristics; even with physical behaviors and accomplishments.
As men, when we meet other men, we ask: “what do you do?” We become stamped with what we do or how we look. The Bible says that while man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart.
It is not that we should ignore the physical characteristics, but they should be put into perspective. Placing them first causes many of our personal and interpersonal problems.
I am not primarily a balding, bespectacled, aging male, who likes to write. I am primarily a child of God, destined for an eternity of glorifying God by enjoying Him supremely. Though some may know me only by my appearance, they are missing a great deal if they don’t know the real, inside me. I miss a great deal myself when I focus too much on the man I see in the mirror.
Perhaps if people were helped to discover the person that God has wonderfully made inside them they would not be so distraught about making temporary changes to the outside.
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To clarify the last sentence…
Perhaps if people were helped to discover the person that God has wonderfully made inside them they would not be so distraught
by seeking to make temporary changes to the outside.
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The thing is that our culture has really lost any definition of “being a man.” We’ve made it so narrow, that boys who like beauty, who are on the sensitive/poetic side, and who don’t enjoy sports feel that there is something wrong with them.
And, society tells them they are right. They must be “gay.” They really ought to be a girl. They have no right as a man to like poetry, cooking, creativity (except in very limited ways), art, drama, or dance. They are not supposed to like those things, and, again, if they do then they are abnormal and not “real” men.
Girls in this day and age can do ANYTHING and take any name (they’ve swiped a bunch of male names). They can dress any way they like. And, this freedom for women, has, conversely, narrowed what a man can do and wear and be.
One of my sons used to say at a young age that he “wanted to be a girl.” What he really wanted was the freedom to be HIM, and like things that weren’t defined as rough-housing or sports. He wanted the freedom he saw in women to do and like anything. (He’s very bright, and noticed this from a young age.)
We started pointing him to beautiful things that males ARE allowed to like. We pointed out that all the great chefs are men, most of the great artists, most great composers, and so on.
We allowed him to have beautiful things and emphasized his right to them as a male. He did not have to be female to enjoy them.
He is a wonderful MALE young man today, a strong man with a scholarly outlook on life and an appreciation for the arts and for beauty in the world around him. He still doesn’t like sports. But, in college, he found other intellectuals and he is happy. And, he didn’t need (nor does he want) a sex change.
We are taking a symptom that is environmental and societal and making it into a permanent and damaging physical change. I think it is so very, very sad for these boys whose parents have bought the lie.
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Perhaps if people were helped to discover the person that God has wonderfully made inside them they would not be so distraught
by seeking to make temporary changes to the outside.
******EXACTLY.
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Can one really change their sex? Can a man become a woman, produce their own eggs, get fertilized and carry a baby to term? Can a woman become a man, produce their own sperm, and impregnate a woman?
Sex changes are like Michael Jackson’s color change…
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If Chas went to meet Jesus in the sky, would Chas be Chas or Chastity?
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Paul McHugh made an extremely valid point when he said that we should have been studying the “causes and natures of their mental misdirections”. Since there is now proof that some of the chemicals (endocrine interrupters) that we’ve created and polluted God’s world with have caused physical sexual abnormalities in animals, isn’t there a chance that developing baby humans are being affected as well? By either pretending that this behavior is normal (the PC thing to do) or over-simplifying the problem as an easy choice of right versus wrong (what Christians often do), we’re missing the chance to find the underlying causes.
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TAMMY you are a very wise mommy.
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Tammy 10 – All parents should hear your short statement of WISDOM.
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The world has gone crazy. We go right from calling something a “disorder” to feeling like we have to facilitate it, and then making it available to children.
There is really no end to this kind of thing. I recently heard about Body Identity Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
Some people strongly desire amputations. This is still considered a disorder, but there are serious discussions among academics over the ethics involved, since these are adults who they believe should be able to make their own decisions. How many years until this becomes another “right”?
Did I mention that the world has gone crazy?
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“Since there is now proof that some of the chemicals (endocrine interrupters) that we’ve created and polluted God’s world with have caused physical sexual abnormalities in animals, isn’t there a chance that developing baby humans are being affected as well?”
I’ve wondered this too. Different formulations of plastic have been known to do some weird things to animals. MSG has also been implicated.
Romans were slowly poisoning themselves with their lead pipes, why couldn’t we be doing the same thing with our plastic pipes, water bottles, utensils, plastic containers, tubs, etc?
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Bob Buckles said, “If Chas went to meet Jesus in the sky, would Chas be Chas or Chastity?”
Chas would be happy.
As some of you have alluded, you can’t make a woman of a man, nor a man from a woman.
This issue never came up until men started doing weird things with knives.
If a man becomes a woman, will that prevent him from growing facial hair, or from becoming bald in his later years?
I’m not arguing, I’m asking.
If he’s a woman, what kind of man will he attract?
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From the story – Wyatt/Nicole has an identical twin brother, Jonas, and in the photo accompanying the article, the physical differences between them are striking.
I looked at the photo closely. The photographer emphasized the obvious physical differences caused by the hormone blocker (Adam’s Apple and beginning mustache). I wouldn’t call these differences “striking”.
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Bob: If Chas met your deity in heaven, what gender would the deity be? Why?
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Chas, I did some reading on eunuchs a couple years back (I knew one, and was curious) and found they don’t tend to lose their hair like men with testosterone. It was true of the one I knew, in his fifties.
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12 – No, a sex change means that the person will be infertile for the rest of their lives. It is a cosmetic procedure, accompanied by hormone therapy. The internal sex organs are not there.
19 – Men who become eunuchs do lose much of their testosterone due to what is removed, and the fact they are put on estrogen therapy (which is a big cancer risk). If it happens before puberty, I believe they do not develop facial hair.
I am not sure about afterwards, since the adrenal glands (above the kidneys) also produce some androgens that promote hair growth (testosterone is an androgen), but the estrogen therapy probably conteracts that. And yes, testosterone is responsible for male pattern baldness.
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Thanx for the clarification Phos. The logic of all this escapes me.
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There is a movie making the rounds here in town about a man with a twin sister — so far, so good, but the summary calls the female an identical twin sister. Aarrgh!
–Ken Bland
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Even if it is medically possible for the process to start before puberty, I find it ethically reckless to not require a child to be of age before going down this path. A child cannot process this decision and doesn’t understand the risks (ie. cancer) involved. How, how, how is it that a minor cannot sign a contract and make it binding but can choose to do this before age 18? I won’t even argue on the base of my Christian world view. This argument can be won, using simple logic on the basis of ethics alone! Praise the Lord, Jesus is coming soon! Look up, our redemption draws near!!!That’s all I can say…..
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Comment #19, do you intend this as an anti-Semetic statement?
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A couple of parallels-
One study of Asian adult adoptees raised in Caucasian families found that 25% identified themselves as Caucasian rather than Asian. Some of them were having surgery to make their physical appearances “less Asian.” It is considered a tragedy that has to be avoided by conscientious parents of young adoptees.
Now the new norm in prospective parent classes with good international adoption agencies is to focus on encouraging children to be proud of and comfortable with their natural physical characteristics, even though those do not necessarily match up with traditional images of what most (biological) families look like.
We are Caucasian and we adopted our youngest child from S. Korea. Our agency has tremendous amounts of information and resources for our “patchwork families” to help our children become comfortable with their physical traits and backgrounds. They screen parents to weed out those who are not going to make the effort or who have the wrong attitudes about these racial identity issues.
It seems to me psychology is schizophrenic when it comes to body issues. Instead of trying to help children with gender identity issues accept their physical gender the way they try to help children of different races accept their physical racial traits, they go running to permanent, experimental surgeries and treatments without considering the evidence of long-term outcomes and alternative approaches to parenting these children. It’s philosophically inconsistent and not even scientifically sound.
Imagine a very young girl with a stocky, fuller figure having plastic surgery and doing drastic things resulting in permanent infertility to be thin. Do we hear a chorus of psychologists saying, “Well, she just KNOWS she’s skinny person on the inside and we need to do whatever we can hormonally and surgically to get her the body she wants so the outside matches the inside.” No. Psychology generally considers that a bad thing. Yet this seems to be what they’re doing to children with gender issues.
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Kristine, #27. I made statement #19.
I don’t understand the question. What could be anti-Semetic?
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McHugh is making his data fit his conclusion. It’s a junk piece that he’s not letting others comment on directly because it would damage his credibility.
The gender experiments in the 1970s were based on the theory that gender was a social construct. Thus, transsexualism was a psychological issue (because gender was psychological) and intersect people could be assigned either gender because gender was psychological.
The suicides, attempted transitions, and general unhappiness of their failed cases convinced them that gender was physiological, not psychological, and thus intersex individuals and transsexuals could NOT be treated as a purely psychological problem.
What McHugh does is a cheap con mans trick. He restates the problem, then states something barely related and never connects them. In this case:
The 1970s experiments show gender is not psychological
Therefore transsexual individuals have a purely psychological problem because they have gender issues.
One might note that the evidence shows the OPPOSITE of what McHugh stated. Well… Yes. It does.
Seeing his palp treated as anything more than the obvious lies it is shows a distinct failure in our school system. Apparently basic reasoning has been sadly neglected.
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McHugh is a nutter who lets his theology trump science, and there’s a MASSIVE difference in “exhibiting cross-gender behavior” and insisting adamantly that one IS the opposite gender in an unshakable and persistent way.
Using sloppy descriptors is one way that ill-informed and ignorant critics confuse the issue.
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Sawgunner: “It seems so premature to start…”
That’s the point of the hormone blocking treatment – to buy time before irreversible procedures are decided upon. this course of action is a delaying tactic, not a treatment which results in permanent results.
The article claims that “once begun, the treatment cannot be reversed” and that is, in some regards, true (you can stop taking estrogen, but some of the effects would be permanent if taken long enough) but the treatment to this point is not irreversable.
I can assure you, however, that children who are persistent in their gender identity for years on end ARE as certain of their decision as you would be regarding your own gender. They know full well what they are doing. The myth that this is some passing whim is belied by the fact that she’s 10 years into this self-identity. I know the ignorant like to toss out “my son played with dolls for a week” or some such nonsense but the two are not at all comparable.
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Mrsnews2me: “Can you marry a man who wants a woman?
Can you marry a homosexual woman who wants another woman?
Would a homosexual man want a man who is now a woman?”
Homosexuality is not at issue here. Gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate issues.
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buddyglass: “Regardless of how the body is altered, the patient is always going to be a transsexual, and acceptance of transsexuals is not widespread. ”
Yet. and it never will be if transsexuals cower in fear of non-acceptance. the best way to change a persons mind is to live your life and show them you are not, after all, “a freak and a weirdo” like they’d been taught.
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make it man: “Sad. Very sad. Glad someone has the courage to stand for the truth, whatever it may be.”
The case refereed to there is a perfect example of something quite different. Those ignorant of the science often comment on threads such as this one with tinfoil hat theories about perverted parents who are “brainwashing” their children. the case you reference proves just the opposite. That child’s adult influences, parents and doctors and so forth, tried 24/7 to convince the child that he was female but despite all the environmental pressure that could be brought to bear, he KNEW he was male.
that’s a textbook refutation of the idea of parental “brainwashing” causing kids to think they are trans.
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Neil Evans – “Perhaps if people were helped to discover the person that God has wonderfully made inside them they would not be so distraught by seeking to make temporary changes to the outside.”
This post assumes that trans people never attempt to deal with their issues through a spiritual relationship with God. This assumes FAR too much. The great majority do EVERYTHING they can to “get rid of” or overcome this condition, including giving it to God and seeking his will.
this is not so true of these children, of course, because society is FINALLY getting past the false teaching that being transsexual is a behavior, and a sinful one, and giving these kids the chance to grow up well balanced rather than shamed into repressing their true nature lest they be condemned by society.
But for those who transition later in life, it’s almost universal that they have dealt with God about it for many years before waking up one day and realizing that all the religious folks who taught them they were perverted sinners had lied to them.
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The thing is that our culture has really lost any definition of “being a man.” We’ve made it so narrow, that boys who like beauty, who are on the sensitive/poetic side, and who don’t enjoy sports feel that there is something wrong with them.
This might be true, but it has nothing to do with a boy who KNOWS in his very core he is a female. some are begining to use the phrase “core gender” which I think is a nice understandable way of phrasing it.
While there are indeed transgender behavioral choices, “lifestyles” if you will, a transsexual is not simply choosing a transgender behavior, they have a medical condition – a birth defect for lack of a better phrase – they KNOW they are female, and would know so in the absence of any awareness of the construct of their body at all, let alone cultural cues about dress or behavior.
And, society tells them they are right. They must be “gay.” They really ought to be a girl.
First, being transsexual and being gay are completely different things. Second, I can assure you society does NOT say that either is “okay” – because the new York Times or some such says it doesn’t change the fact that in the VAST majority of cases, YOUR society – your parents and your church and your schoolmates do not say “okay” they say “PERVERT!” and commence to exerting incredible peer pressure (and authority figure pressure) on the child to conform to “normal” expecations.
NO ONE is trans (or gay) because it is easy or someone confirms it. Rather you have to fight and claw at every turn to gain a little respect and compassion. The idea that anyone would ever CHOOSE to be trans in our society is insanity itself. One might as well choose to step in front of a bus, at least they’d be remembered well.
They have no right as a man to like poetry, cooking, creativity (except in very limited ways), art, drama, or dance. They are not supposed to like those things, and, again, if they do then they are abnormal and not “real” men.
I don’t think that’s really true at all. there are well respected men in all those fields. and have been for ages. Rather, typically male brains show less interest in such things than the female brain (although that is a very general thing and not rigid)
Girls in this day and age can do ANYTHING and take any name (they’ve swiped a bunch of male names). They can dress any way they like. And, this freedom for women, has, conversely, narrowed what a man can do and wear and be.
How then do you explain the F2M transsexual?
One of my sons used to say at a young age that he “wanted to be a girl.” What he really wanted was the freedom to be HIM, and like things that weren’t defined as rough-housing or sports. He wanted the freedom he saw in women to do and like anything. (He’s very bright, and noticed this from a young age.)
If he was ever able to be comfortably male, then he has a male brain. his case does not invalidate those who are not.
We started pointing him to beautiful things that males ARE allowed to like. We pointed out that all the great chefs are men, most of the great artists, most great composers, and so on.
We allowed him to have beautiful things and emphasized his right to them as a male. He did not have to be female to enjoy them.
He is a wonderful MALE young man today, a strong man with a scholarly outlook on life and an appreciation for the arts and for beauty in the world around him. He still doesn’t like sports. But, in college, he found other intellectuals and he is happy. And, he didn’t need (nor does he want) a sex change.
That’s wonderful. His life will be much easier. Nevertheless, be careful what you assume. 3 years ago anyone who knew me would have sworn I was very happy and well adjusted as a male.
We learn to wear the mask very very well lest we be judged and scorned and outcast as so many others have.
I’m sure you were loving parents (or rather, I have no evidence to assert you were not) but do you have ANY idea how many “good Christian parents” utterly disowned, and even put out on the street, their children – underage or not – who “shamed them” by insisting they were transsexual? hundreds and hundreds. and that’s usually after trying everything from reparitive therapy to regular beatings in order to “fix” them.
it doesn’t take much for a “bright kid” to do the math and figure they’d better keep their mouth shut if they knew what was good for them. often, by the time you are college age you have that mask so firmly in place (usually held there as much by false theology as shame) that it becomes years or decades before you dare consider taking it off.
We are taking a symptom that is environmental and societal and making it into a permanent and damaging physical change. I think it is so very, very sad for these boys whose parents have bought the lie.
with all due respect, this is NOT “societal and environmental” – this is a medical condition. There is no “environmental” accounting for it that explains even a plurality of cases, let alone all of them.
on the other hand, there’s a very rational, logical, and to some extent already proven, medical and scientific case explaining it.
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“Can one really change their sex? Can a man become a woman, produce their own eggs, get fertilized and carry a baby to term? Can a woman become a man, produce their own sperm, and impregnate a woman?”
So a woman who cannot reproduce is not a woman at all, right?
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If Chas went to meet Jesus in the sky, would Chas be Chas or Chastity?
“In heaven they are neither male nor female”
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Paul McHugh made an extremely valid point when he said that we should have been studying the “causes and natures of their mental misdirections”. Since there is now proof that some of the chemicals (endocrine interrupters) that we’ve created and polluted God’s world with have caused physical sexual abnormalities in animals, isn’t there a chance that developing baby humans are being affected as well?
McHugh hardly ever says anything sensible on this subject – he’s pushing his personal morality and calling it science and the VAST majority of the medical profession holds an opposing view.
Nevertheless, on your quote – the phenomena of transsexualism is worldwide and extends throughout recorded history. it is impossible to determine if the increased awareness of it now is a result of it being more socially acceptable in western cultures (there are many other cultures where it was never an issue to begin with) and thus fewer transsexuals either repress their identity, or find a different outlet (including suicidal or “death wish” behavior) than before – or whether there are pollutant factors causing more incidence of the condition, or some combination.
What I’d like to ask you is this, though: if in fact their is a birth defect caused by the things you mentioned, by what logic can you then say anything about whether the behavior is “normal”?
Being autistic is not “normal” – but it is a naturally occuring phenomena, not a behavioral trait which can be described in moral terms.
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The world has gone crazy. We go right from calling something a “disorder” to feeling like we have to facilitate it, and then making it available to children.
Either it’s a medical condition, or it’s not. If it is, then you do not “facilitate” it’s occurance, you facilitate it’s treatment. Just as one might treat any other birth defect.
Some people strongly desire amputations.
This apples-to-hand grenades comparison comes up every time transsexualism is discussed and the analogy fails on several points.
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This issue never came up until men started doing weird things with knives.
If a man becomes a woman, will that prevent him from growing facial hair, or from becoming bald in his later years?
hormones, particularly estrogen. it is true that E alone will not stop beard growth, but any true transsexual (as opposed to transgender) make it among their first priorities (as cash allows) to have the beard removed via laser or electrolysis. i assure you that NO true transsexual would be caught dead outside the house with so much as a 12 hour shadow if they could avoid it, let alone grow a beard. Removing that hair is a top priority.
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12 – No, a sex change means that the person will be infertile for the rest of their lives. It is a cosmetic procedure, accompanied by hormone therapy. The internal sex organs are not there.
Gender is not defined by fertility. is the man who’s had a vasectomy no longer male?
What about the one who was castrated because he had prostate cancer?
Men who become eunuchs do lose much of their testosterone due to what is removed,
Factually incorrect. The testes are the major (not only) supplier of testosterone and once removed, the levels crash to a minimal reading.
and the fact they are put on estrogen therapy (which is a big cancer risk).
Again inaccurate. it is a mild cancer risk indicator, but no more so than for the post-menopausal female.
f it happens before puberty, I believe they do not develop facial hair.
correct. Which is one of the HUGE reasons for starting then (actually, hormone blockers will do that without the introduction of estrogen yet)
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The logic of all this escapes me.
That’s a bit of a broad statement, but let me walk you through it:
Consider this. The following are true verifiable scientific facts that every poster here will agree with:
1. birth defects do occur.
2. Birth defects occur which affect the genitalia. (such are well verified)
3. Birth defects occur which affect the functioning of the brain, which is a physical organ of the body just as the breast or the penis, such as autism.
4. The brain is not only the primary organ involved in determining gender identity (and sexual orientation for that matter), it is in fact the ONLY organ involved.
Given that we know these things, by what logic or reasoning (come now, let us reason together) do we emphatically reject the possibility that one can be born with a birth defect (1) affecting the brain (2) which corrupts the natural design (2) in regard to gender identity (4)? Not only is that irrational (any remotely logical reasoning would conclude it’s almost certainly what’s going on) to suggest, but in the most very generous (to the traditional position) reading, it is intellectually impossible to completely reject ANY possibility that such a defect is possible.
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A child cannot process this decision and doesn’t understand the risks (ie. cancer) involved.
you are mistaken, but let us assume for the sake of argument you are not. if a child of, say, 11 (about the time you’d start hormone blockers) cannot understand things like a loss of fertility (which WILL happen) or cancer (which is all but a non-issue) then neither can that child fully comprehend the sever mental distress they will cary with them throughout life if they are forced to repress, nor can they understand the hundreds of hours of pain and thousands of dollars of expense involved in correcting things that need never have been (like having a beard) and the emotional distress of having a mascilinzed frame which can never be corrected (if you don’t think that’s an issue, Kristine, imagine having size 12W feet, a 46 inch chest, and a very male face)
So it cuts both ways. Still, I promise you – a male-bodied trans child leaves in utter terror as puberty approaches dreading what it will do to their body. so does a female bodied trans-child for that matter. while a normal girl can’t wait for her figure to develop, a trans “girl” LOATHES the idea of ever having breasts, a trans “boy” weeps over the notion they will develop a beard and probably tons of body hair and develop a deep voice.
Don’t you dare think they don’t know what’s going on.
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How, how, how is it that a minor cannot sign a contract and make it binding but can choose to do this before age 18?
Because that’s when the damage is done. if a child develops cancer at 12, should we agree that they cannot understand the risks involved in surgery and chemo and therefore the only logical thing to do is wait until they are 18 to obtain consent?
you initiate treatment at the best time to achieve the best outcome. simple as that.
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It seems to me psychology is schizophrenic when it comes to body issues. Instead of trying to help children with gender identity issues accept their physical gender
Everything known to man was tried – for DECADES – up to an including electroshock therapy.
Nothing has ever proven successful. if it could really be fixed, 98% of every trans person on earth would RUSH to embrace such a treatment. No one wants to be a “freak” in the eyes of their loved ones. Sadly, there is no successful treatment but transition.
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Thanks for the informative, level-headed posts, TammyBeth! A breath of fresh air.
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Tammybeth is obviously a very dedicated advocate for one side of this debate. Some Google research showed that there are furious efforts by that side to discredit Dr. McHugh. I guess that approach is preferable to re-thinking their beliefs and emotional commitments.
More than 20 years ago, a former boss did everything he could (including surgery) to go from being a “he” to a “she”. He quit our company at that time, and completely abandoned his wife and two near-teen sons. I shudder to think what this did to his sons.
I guess it was the utter selfishness of his act that affected me most. “I’m not ‘happy’, so I will do what I want, without regard to those I have responsibility towards.” This is another confirmation of Dr. McHugh’s statement, “I have witnessed a great deal of damage from sex-reassignment.”
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TammyBeth, a sincere question:
Are all “transpersons” truly the result of brain abnormalities? Are there some whose brains function normally yet they choose transsexual behaviors?
Could it be your position that Christians should accept and try to understand people who have a genuine brain malfunction and yet legitimately see as sinful behavior those who get involved in a transsexual lifestyle as a personal choice?
Why do you believe Christians are responding the way they are?
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TWH – a large number of people are dissatisfied with McHugh using his professional credentials to misrepresent medical science. The fact of the matter is that the very studies and outcomes he cites are the ones used to conclude transgender people were most likely suffering from a physiological phenomena – a result later confirmed by MRI tests.
That many are angry about his lies is a function of him using his official capacity to add weight to them. Without that, he’d just be another ignorant blowhard on the net.
Neil – the fact that the vast majority of transsexuals shared brain characteristics with the gender they identify with does not prove those regions ’cause transgender’. Rather, it means that the two are related -both could be symptoms of a base cause. Brain science is a new field, but the existence of differences that are sex-linked in transsexual’s brains is an indication that the phenomena is NOT psychological.
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Also if you believe that there is a physical phenomena that causes GID and yet do not support hormone therapy or surgery, I have to believe you are a monster. The pain caused by GID is real and horrific, to deny a treatment shown to work is akin to denying painkillers to cancer patients.
I cannot believe anyone who has a single shred of compassion or empathy could endorse that.
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Robert K – Fact – Child mutilation (whether chemical or surgical) should be illegal and should be seen as the monstrous (to use your word) act that it is. I wasn’t even aware of this perversion of medicine, but having become informed, I am completely appalled.
Vocal advocates, willing Doctors (who are also advocates), and influential media support don’t change the facts. The Doctors’ complicity in this is particularly disturbing. Advocates are one thing – exercising their free speech rights. Advocates with knives and drugs in hand are extremely dangerous.
I urge everyone to use the link to the MassResistance website at the end of the story. It includes testimonies from real people who have been mutilated physically and mentally by this “industry”.
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When a nation begins to abuse its children, you know its days are numbered.
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TWH – I see. So children with cleft palates should be denied surgery until they’re 18. Children who are missing the inner eardrum should not have the reasonably simple surgery to fix that. Children with vestigial fingers should not have them amputated, children should never have their tonsils or appendix removed. Hell, children should never be circumcised (a procedure with no documented medical benefits at all).
Or is it just one very particular problem where you suddenly encounter this vast resistance to medical treatment for children?
I assure you, doctors are nothing if not a conservative community when it comes to treatments. Hormone therapy has proven the only successful method of treating GID. No other method has any proven success rate at all.
But of course the medical community is doing this because most doctors don’t care if they hurt patients, and hate everyone. It’s a vast conspiracy, all doctors go to med school simply to further a political agenda, they develop treatment standards just to further their agenda, all medical journals are actually propaganda tools.
I’m sure you’ll find support for this with the homeopath and crystal healing communities. They too favor not actually helping people who desperately need help. Maybe you can give transgender people some roots and focus your chi energy through a quartz crystal, that might help.
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Robert K – Nice try. This story (and my comments) refer to the purposeful mutilation of children’s organs and body systems that are functioning perfectly well.
By trying to change my intent, you are creating a strawman as an alternative to facing facts.
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So its not okay for parents to have their son circumcised but totally hunky dory for them to have him made from boy to girl?
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This whole thing is just sad. People are so short-sighted.
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Its just amazing how the bible went from the ruling standard for much of the western world, to being ignored.
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TWH – Nice try, but wrong. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BTSc) is strongly gender linked in size. Males have roughly 3 times more volume in the BTSc. Transsexuals have BTSc sizes that match their identified gender, in both volume and neuron count.
This result has been stunningly related – we are not talking a 5% volume change, we are talking the BTSc appears to come from a person of opposite gender to the birth gender.
This is fixing a clear, physical problem that is never going away – brains do not mysteriously gain or lose brain cells. Medical science has found one, and only one cure – transition. Psychotherapy, tried for decades, resulted in a hell of a lot of suicides, and no good resolution.
Gender cannot be treated as a psychological issue, as you wish to treat it. It is clearly a physiological issue.
P.S. if we someday learned to do targeted fixes on the effected brain regions (something currently impossible without high risk of severe brain damage and low probability of success) what would be your opinion?
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Again man is trying to play God.
God made men to be men, a woman to be a woman. What we are seeing happen in today’s society is the reuslt of the fall of man. man is trying to play God, by saying that God made a mistake. Some men are made to woman and some women are made to be a man.
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Exatly Pastor Roy,
I Couldn’t agree more.
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that’s Exactly
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Drewbinator
Its just amazing how the bible went from the ruling standard for much of the western world, to being ignored.
—-
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Avoid Worldly Wisdom
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”
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Man’s wisdom is trying to say God is ok with the GLBT Community. With out any proof from God’s Word.
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Yeah, good verse.
Pastor I’ve been reading your posts for a lot of subjects for a while, (I just joined the blog last night) and I think we’re on the same sheet of music theologically.
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Re 56,
exactly
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Its sort of like the book “Frankenstien.” When men try to become God, it never ends well.
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Now those on the left will trump junk man made science over God’s Word. The reason is there do not want to repent of their worldly think that has put them into conflict with God and His Word.
To easy the mind and to justify their views. They resort to junk man made science and then declare it as real science. They will take real science and declare it as junk science. All to avoid the need to repent from their views.
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What is happen in today’s medical world on these issues. Is those who are promoting and supporting the GLBT Community Moral Values, Views and Ideas hand out a lot of money in grants. Grants are what makes the Medical Field Group Run. The result of this in today’s world, is the Medical Field desire to receive these grants will title their results to favor the GLBT Community.
An any results that do not fit the GLBT Community Moral Values, Views and Ideas will be automatically attacked by other in the Medical Field.
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Robert K – That wasn’t even a “nice try”.
“A recent study by Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) demonstrated the profound effect of transgender hormone therapy on brain volume in transsexuals: In eight MtF transsexuals treated for 4 months with ethinyl estradiol and CPA, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume decreased significantly with hormone therapy, based on pre- and post-treatment MRI studies. In a control group of nine untreated nontranssexual men, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume increased slightly over a similar period. In six FtM transsexuals treated for 4 months with testosterone, total brain volume increased and hypothalamic volume remained unchanged, whereas in a control group of six untreated nontranssexual women, total brain volume remained unchanged and hypothalamic volume decreased.”
“The Zhou/Kruijver findings might reflect the effects of feminizing or masculinizing hormone therapy, which all six MtF transsexuals and the one FtM transsexual received.”
http://www.annelawrence.com/brain-sex_critique.html
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TWH – of course hormones have an effect on the brain. But the BTSc studies used a control group of non-transgender people taking hormones for unrelated medical conditions. The control group lacked the differential. In point of fact the BTSc was selected because it is strongly sex-linked and is not thought to be related to hormones. Which the studies’ control groups have shown to be correct.
It’s like you assume that doctors who study the brain regularly never thought ‘hmmm I wonder if hormones effect it?’
Of course they did. Of course they have control groups. This is science, not a bloody game of darts.
Please stop assuming doctors are bleeding morons, and check if they actually thought of the most obvious question in the world.
As a side note, MRIs show that transsexuals have brains that have both male and female components before hormones, and after hormones have largely gender-matching brains. Of course MRIs lack the resolution to see the BTSc, they prefer larger surface structures.
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Robert K – The reason I said that your last post wasn’t even a “nice try” is that you continue to post information (without references) that you portray as conclusive. It took me two minutes to find counter-information to yours – and I even managed to include a reference, rather than argue from some kind of false “authority”.
Your patronizing attitude does nothing to convert your propaganda into “settled science”. I remain on the side of not doing medical experiments with breathtaking consequences on children.
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Your patronizing attitude does nothing to convert your propaganda into “settled science”. I remain on the side of not doing medical experiments with breathtaking consequences on children.
—
The problem the man made junk science of today would say you are wrong. Regardless of teh facts you have on your side.
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TammyBeth, treating childhood cancer and permitting a child to take risking their health by the known side effects of these treatments are two different things. I deal with legal contracts every day. I assure you, never could I allow a child to walk into my office and sign a contract and expect them to have the full knowledge of what they are doing. So, why do we not take greater care in the matter of life itself? I will tell you why, because in the end, wrong will be right and right will be wrong. Logic has been removed from our education system and I can see it ever so clearly when trying to draw a similarity between treating cancer in a child and providing damaging drugs to underage children.
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Ahhhh, where’s the button that allows me to remove my account??? This is burning my eyes!!!!
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If there is one thing I love about the Internet it is the vast amounts of information it gives us access to.
If there is one thing I dislike, it is that so many think information must be true and complete, because it exists. Thus they babble about pepeptual motion machines and cars running on water and bush destroying the towers.
TWH – the paper used an MRI. Therefore it’s grad student crap. Why? MRIs are as capable of measuring and observing the BSTc as you are with your naked eye.
You cannot review results with an instrument incapable of finding those results. It is like trying to turn a screw with a hammer. MRIs are cheap and common, they make good things for grad students to snag some time on.
However, autopsies on cadavars is something you need pull to get, so well…
The BST plays an essential role in masculine sexual behaviour and in the regulation of gonadotrophin release, as shown by studies in the rat [3,4,21]. There has been no direct evidence that the BST has such a role in human sexual behaviour but our demonstration of a sexually dimorphic pattern in the size of the human BSTc, which is in agreement with the previously described sex difference in a more caudal part of the BST (BNST-dspm) [19], indicates that this nucleus may also be involved in human sexual or reproductive functions. It has been proposed that neurochemical sex differences in the rat BST may be due to effects of sex hormones on the brain during development and in adulthood [22,23]. Our data from humans however, indicate that BSTc volume is not affected by varying sex hormone levels in adulthood. The BSTc volume of a 46-year-old woman who had suffered for at least 1 year from a tumour of the adrenal cortex that produced very high blood levels of androstenedione and testosterone, was within the range of that of other women (Fig. 3: S1). Furthermore, two postmenopausal women (aged over 70 years) showed a completely normal female-sized BSTc (Fig. 3: M1, M2). As all the transsexuals had been treated with oestrogens, the reduced size of the BSTc could possibly have been due to the presence of high levels of oestrogen in the blood. Evidence against this comes from the fact that transsexual T2 and T3 both showed a small, female-like BSTc (Fig. 3), although T2 stopped taking oestrogen about 15 months before death, since her prolactin levels were too high and T3 stopped hormone treatment since a sarcoma was found about three months before death; also a 31-year-old man who suffered from a feminizing adrenal tumour which induced high blood levels of oestrogen, nevertheless had a very large BSTc (Fig. 3: S2).
http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf
You see, TWH? Your objection was thought of and accounted for.
Of course there has been a follow up (just one, cadavar research is a pain). Kruijiver et al studied neuron mass with better precision. The results were much lower p values.
Figure 1.
BSTc neuron numbers. Distribution of the BSTc neuron numbers among the different groups according to sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity. M, Heterosexual male reference group; HM, homosexual male group; F, female group; TM, male-to-female transsexuals. The sex hormone disorder patients S1, S2, S3, S5, S6, and M2 indicate that changes in sex hormone levels in adulthood do not change the neuron numbers of the BSTc. The difference between the M and the TM group (P < 0.04) is also statistically significant according to the sequential Bonferonni method if S2, S3, and S5 are included in the M group or if S7 is included in the TM group (P ? 0.01). Note that the number of neurons of the FMT is fully within the male range. Whether the transsexuals were male oriented (T1, T6), female oriented (T2, T3, T5), or both (T4) did not have any relationship with the neuron number of the BSTc. The same holds true for heterosexual and homosexual men. This shows that the BSTc number of somatostatin neurons is not related to sexual orientation. A, AIDS patient. The BSTc number of neurons in the heterosexual man and woman with AIDS remained well within the corresponding reference group (see Fig. 1), so AIDS did not seem to affect the somatostatin neuron numbers in the BSTc. P, Postmenopausal woman. S1 (? 46 yr of age): adrenal cortex tumor for more than 1 yr, causing high cortisol, androstendione, and testosterone levels. S2 (? 31 yr of age): feminizing adrenal tumor that induced high blood levels of oestrogens. S3 (? 67 yr of age): prostate carcinoma; orchiectomy 3 months before death. S5 (? 86 yr of age): prostate carcinoma; prostatectomy; orchiectomy, and antiandrogen treatment for the last 2 yr. S6 (? 25 yr of age): Turner syndrome (45,X0; ovarian hypoplasia). M2 (? 73 yr of age): postmenopausal status.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full.pdf
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Now if we want to remain on the plane of pure unfiltered science, with p values and citations, well okay. I’m at home there.
What I have been trying to do is explain things to normal people who don’t have time to learn about p values and brain regions and autopsy protocol.
It does grate to see people like TWH throw it back in my face by insisting I play in the domain of science (and after a single google search of a source they clearly don’t understand and haven’t read the referenced papers for).
I believe I shall remain in the domain of the layman from here, as TWH and McHugh’s attempts to invoke science were pathetic – there is more need to educate on why they are wrong than prove them wrong (for that is a truly trivial task).
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Just more man made junk science to try an prove the GLBT Communiy moral values, views and ideas. Man’s Wisdom is foolishness.
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Is as may be. As I was given to understand it man should never be as presumptuous to dictate the nature of what was created by God, to define it or set limitations upon the creator. That man was given the tools to but observe creation, not define it.
However, the science is the same science that ended the scourge of smallpox, created vaccines against deadly plagues, gave us heat in the coldest days of winter and keeps us cool on the hottest days of summer.
Science has a very set methodology of refuting any theory – develop a competing hypothesis, design a test, carry it out. Alternatively you may point out parts within the theory or test that are inconsistent (negating the test, but not the hypothesis).
If the position of any one group is more supported by science you cannot make it otherwise.
What is most amusing here is that you feel such a need to co-opt science. Where is faith there? Would it matter if the science was perfect and irrefutable? Can your beliefs be changed by science? And if not, why are you so worried about discrediting it?
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When people who refuse to repent of their sexual sins try, an use man made junk science to change God’s Word and Society views. Christian should speak out aginst such evil.
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Robert K – You use an interesting tactic and/or you have a massive superiority complex.
Be that as it may, you continue to advocate the chemical alteration of children, even pretending that any other position is insupportable. That remains breathtaking to me.
I suggest you re-read and contemplate Tammy’s contribution at #10. The parents featured in the Boston Globe article are LGBT Activists.
Two cases. Two radically different parental approaches. Two radically different outcomes.
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Pastor Roy @ 72
I completely agree. The bible makes clear that both homosexuality and this kind of “Gender Reassignment Surgery” is completely unacceptable.
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twh – we face a soicety where right is now called wrong and wrong is know called right.
Just look at sports starts. Tim Tebow is made fun of for praise God other stars are called misunderstood when they act in fashion that gets them into with the law.
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TWH – actually at the start they knew nothing about the issue, and tried to force their daughter to do “manly” things like baseball and cub scouts so she’d “grow out of it.”
They have changed into activists after seeing the discrimination, bullying, and prejudice their daughter inspired in others. It’s hard to witness that firsthand and not have a desire to fight against it, to protect the ones you love from the ignorant bigots attacking them. It is, after all, human nature to protect the ones we love.
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Robert K, I ask you the question I asked earlier…
TammyBeth, a sincere question:
Are all “transpersons” truly the result of brain abnormalities? Are there some whose brains function normally yet they choose transsexual behaviors?
Could it be your position that Christians should accept and try to understand people who have a genuine brain malfunction and yet legitimately see as sinful behavior those who get involved in a transsexual lifestyle as a personal choice?
Why do you believe Christians are responding the way they are?
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Robert K – Well, that’s their story and they’re stickin’ to it. Actually, it could well have been the medical “experts” they consulted who began the “process”.
From a 2008 NPR interview with Dr. Ken Zucker, a gender identity specialist who works at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada.
“Theoretically, if you got a kid at an early stage — 2 or 3 — even if the child were on the far side of the spectrum and really had a lot of behaviors that seemed to point in the direction of a transgender identity, do you feel like you could take that child and make that child feel comfortable being the sex he or she was born with?
Clinically, I would say yes. I’ve seen many kids over the years present with all the indicators of GID, and in terms of my quantitative measures they’re very extreme. But the follow-up studies I’ve done, and others too, show [that] a substantial majority of kids seen for GID in childhood show desistance — that is, when they’re older they don’t want to be the other sex. We just published a study of 25 girls we first saw in childhood and found that only 12 percent seem to have persistent gender dysphoria when they’re older. We find similar rates of persistence in boys.
What do you think of the alternative approach — the approach that allows kids to transition to the opposite sex at an early age?
In the last few years, what one is starting to hear about at conferences is this group of therapists and parents who will conceptualize young children as having transgender or gender variant identity. There are some parents and therapists suggesting that the best way to help these kids is to encourage an early gender role change. So, I’ve seen reports of parents enrolling their 5-year-old biological male child in kindergarten as a girl, for example. That’s a very different therapeutic approach than the one I take.
The therapists supporting a child’s transition early, I have characterized them in a half serious way as liberal essentialists. On the surface, the approach comes across as very humanistic, liberal, accepting, tolerant of diversity. But I think the hidden assumption is that they believe the child’s cross-gender identity is entirely caused by biological factors. That’s why I call them essentialists. Liberals have always been critical of biological reductionism, but here they embrace it. I think that conceptual approach is astonishingly naive and simplistic, and I think it’s wrong.
I would predict if we followed kids, longitudinally, who are being told “do what you want” — or encouraging early gender role change — they would be much more likely in adolescence or adulthood to go through hormonal and surgical sex change than kids being seen in a psychotherapeutic way, and even probably than kids where people don’t do anything active.
What you’re saying is that this approach essentially tracks them into a transgender identity?
That would be my prediction, yes.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789
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This is a point.
of intersection for three characteristics of American culture:
A. Unnecessary surgery and drug taking;
B. Shocking immorality; and
C. Child abuse.
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Neil – my opinion is that when a disorder has a cause known, one does not make up a brand new disorder than wonder about the treatment on that.
“I’m sorry Mr Smith we can’t give you chemo. You might have proto-cancer. It’s just like cancer except that it has a different cause and looks just like it. But hey, if you do have proto-cancer it might clear up on its own! You don’t know, we’ve never documented a case, so it could work any way at all. Anyway, good luck! Trust me, we wish we can help, but proto-cancer, yknow, is what it is. C’est la vie!”
Gender therapy has one of the toughest screening processes in psychology. Occam’s Razor say ‘why you invent brand new explanation you have no evidence for?’
TWH – if you check one of the other statistics that people love to toss around, the large majority of children who are tested for GID are diagnosed as it having GID. Theres extensive screening before the (harmless) puberty blockers are used, another battery before hormones, and during hormones leading up to any prospective surgery. Does this gel with doctors railroading kids?
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Tammybeth is obviously a very dedicated advocate for one side of this debate. Some Google research showed that there are furious efforts by that side to discredit Dr. McHugh. I guess that approach is preferable to re-thinking their beliefs and emotional commitments.
Ya ever heard that little trashy diddy about making assumptions?
what you don’t know is that I once held the view McHugh and (I suppose) you hold. Not only that, I stood to lectern and pulpit and taught it to others for almost 20 years.
“re-thinking beliefs and emotional commitments” is PRECISELY what led me out of that wilderness of false doctrine and into the light of truth, both scientific and theological truth.
but thanks for assuming.
“More than 20 years ago, a former boss did everything he could (including surgery) to go from being a “he” to a “she”. He quit our company at that time, and completely abandoned his wife and two near-teen sons. I shudder to think what this did to his sons.”
So…you don’t KNOW what it did to his sons – and yet more assuming ensues nontheless. Since you don’t mention any outcomes it’s apparent you don’t know anything about the results of that transition, yet you will nonetheless create the implication that it ended badly.
Perhaps it is you who ought to re-think your beliefs and emotional commitments.
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Always happy to work with sincere questions:
Are all “transpersons” truly the result of brain abnormalities? Are there some whose brains function normally yet they choose transsexual behaviors?
Ah, there’s a bit of “inside baseball” to that answer. what you need to do is distinguish between “transsexual” and “transgender” – they are NOT the same thing
(some people quibble over specific definitions, but those I am about to describe to you work best in aiding understanding, in my view)
Transgender is a broad umberella term which is intended to cover pretty much every sort of gender-variant person you can imagine. The recreational cross-dresser, the drag queen, the androgyn, the so-called “genderqueer” (think of it as like Goth, except your particular style of non-conformity is to challenge gender-norms)the intersex, and the transsexual all fall under this umbrella.
Transsexual, on the other hand, are only and specifically people who understand themselves to actually BE the opposite gender and feel great distress over having a body which does not reflect that identity. A transsexual does not wish to “non-conform” to the binary, merely to switch sides. To use myself as an example, while your typical “transgender” tends to be one who defies the gender binary and seeks to minimize conformity, I want nothing more to be a very conformist female – not to defy the gender-norms.
A transsexual is the way they are because of a birth defect, which cannot be cured (except by transition) and inevitably that person loathes the idea that they are cursed with this condition and would like very very much to be “normal” – the concept of choosing to be transsexual is ludicrously nonsensical.
(also, intersex people simply have a birth defect, and this is well documented)
For all other sorts of transgender people, while there may be some pre-disposition (as one might be predisposed to some sexual fetish, or addictive behavior, or even something as mundane as a short temper) for the most part these people willfully choose to be gender non-conformist, and in that regard might rightly be understood as exibiting a behavior, rhather than a condition.
in short, transsexual is what you ARE, transgender is what you DO (in most cases)
I, for one, believe strongly that the law ought to protect transsexuals from discrimination, just as it protects those with disabilities. for instance, the Standards of Care REQUIRE that a transsexual in transition live successfully as the target gender 24/7 for at least a year before surgery is made available to them. such a person has no choice to dress as the target gender at work, to use the correct restroom every time, and so forth. by contrast, a fetishistic or recreational crossdresser is under no such obligation.
Could it be your position that Christians should accept and try to understand people who have a genuine brain malfunction and yet legitimately see as sinful behavior those who get involved in a transsexual lifestyle as a personal choice?
to a large degree, that’s accurate. (with the understanding of the proper use of the words as described above)
Put more specifically, I insist that the transsexual condition is NOT sin, either in it’s existence or in the treatment of it via transition. I maintain that logically to condemn it thus is inconsistent with what God has revealed of his nature, and that there is no indisputable Scriptural support for condemning it.
On the other hand, while i am uncertain if I would agree that other forms of transgender BEHAVIOR are indeed sin (drag queens, as an example) I would not attempt to convince a well-meaning christian who was convinced that it is that they are wrong or judgmental in that conclusion. i’m open to that being a legitimate position which is not inconsistent with god’s revealed nature.
that said, I would caution believers in this: it is, in my estimation, far easier to give an account to God for having loved too much and judged too little, than it is to give an account for the reverse error.
I want to address your other question as well, but for length i’ll use a separate post.
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Why do you believe Christians are responding the way they are?
Humans have a natural tendency to defer to tradition, and to groupthink. particularly in groups such as the religious for whom tradition is a very important thing.
it is very very difficult to get people to re-examine anything which might be described as “this is the way we’ve always believed.”
Think back over the course of church history and look at the dozens and dozens of example of the church taking an adement stand against some “new idea” only look back 50 or 100 years hence and shake their heads in amazement that Christians could have been so blind.
I live in Mississippi. 50 years ago, the universal opinion of people in my area and the majority opinion everywhere was that blacks and whites ought not mingle or marry. Segregation was seen as a very moral thing consistent with god’s teaching. Go back another 50 years and blacks were routinely considered somehow “lesser” than white people, and women were considered to be unworthy of voting or full equality in public life – again, morally speaking. go back another 50 years and preachers would stand to the pulpit and defend slavery as perfectly Biblical. the list goes on and on.
Now we look back in amazement that Christians could have been so wrong but to THEM, they were very faithful believers just trying to do God’s will. what they were really defending was not in fact God’s word, but traditional cultural bias which had been dressed by their ancestors in the robes of religion.
So it happens again. The cultural bias that all of us are brought up in (if we are over 40 years old particularly) is that trans people (and gays, by the way) are sinful perverted individuals who’ve made wrong choices. it is easy enough to find some misunderstandings of a handful of verses which confirm that which the reader wanted to find before they ever opened their bible, and so the false doctrine is reinforced.
VERY few believers are willing to think for themselves and say “is this what God REALLY said?”
Most had rather be told by an authority figure what to think.
I know this from experience. I spent over 20 years of my life clinging to the idea that god would “heal” me of my “besetting sin” if I was faithful to him. for those 20 years i endevoured to be “super-christian” including preaching and teaching myself (yes, i taught people my own condition was sin, and that gays were making a choice to sin) and believed it to be true.
but you see, I NEEDED it to be true. if it were true that this was a sin that God wanted to deliver me from, then that meant that I, too, could be a “normal” man – free from this hated freakish curse. I clung firmly to the sincere faith that my deliverance would come at any hour. I also spent many yours crying bitter tears asking “how long o Lord?”
At length I had to ask myself if I believed in a God who would condemn me as a sinner for something which I had dedicated 20 solid years to repenting from, or was it more likely i’d been taught a false doctrine? I HAD to re-examine the teaching I’d wanted to be true, lest I lose my very sanity.
Most Christians never face such a crisis in which they are forced to ask the hard questions about this subject, so they never have any motivation to change their minds. often, people will throw away their loved ones, even their own children, before they take the risk of thinking for themselves. it’s really very tragic.
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Robert K – Fact – Child mutilation (whether chemical or surgical) should be illegal and should be seen as the monstrous (to use your word) act that it is. I wasn’t even aware of this perversion of medicine, but having become informed, I am completely appalled.
FACT: (actual one in this case) chemically delayed puberty is no sort of “mutilation” at all. Prescription drugs for the purpose of slowing precocious puberty, and for delaying puberty in some cancer cases, is a well established and non controversial practice which has gone on for years without harmful effects of any sort.
Using the term “mutilation” is a weak rhetorical tactic designed to inflame emotions in the absence of actual factual evidence.
also, mentioning “surgical” is a red herring since no surgery is ever performed on those younger than 16, and almost never for those under 18 (except in cases where intersex conditions are present, and even then it’s not recommended anymore)
You are not “appalled” by the facts, your are appalled by some false mythology you’ve been taught, along with a healthy dose of your own abject ignorance.
that last I find appalling as well.
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So its not okay for parents to have their son circumcised but totally hunky dory for them to have him made from boy to girl?
Repeating – more slowly for the slower among us – no surgery is being performed to transition pre-pubescent children. the very youngest this ever occurs is 16, and all the recommended Standards of practice which virtually all professionals follow require the patient to be at least 18.
Try to keep up.
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Its just amazing how the bible went from the ruling standard for much of the western world, to being ignored.
There’s no need to ignore it, though I agree many people do.
There is, however, a great need to UNDERSTAND it, which a great many people who claim to follow it – don’t.
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Exatly Pastor Roy,
I Couldn’t agree more.
Simple minded ignorance is always appealing, and almost never accurate.
A simple logical consideration of real world events would easily undermine Pator Roy’s logic. but he and I have been down this road before and i know he’s far too committed to the traditions of men to think for himself.
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TammyBeth, treating childhood cancer and permitting a child to take risking their health by the known side effects of these treatments are two different things.
That would be true, except there are no known side effects. This therapy is routinely used to counter precocious puberty and is well studied and not controversial in that indication.
I deal with legal contracts every day. I assure you, never could I allow a child to walk into my office and sign a contract and expect them to have the full knowledge of what they are doing.
Accepting or rejecting a medical course of treatment is not a legal contract. and yes, the parents have the final say – a child cannot say “I want this treatment” against a parents wishes, but the child’s wishes ARE considered as they ought be.
What does any of this have to do with signing legal contracts?
So, why do we not take greater care in the matter of life itself?
Life itself is not at risk here – except that if you require a child to endure a puberty they do not want and “man up” because we adults tell “him” too, very often what you get is a suicidal person.
so yeah, I guess life is at stake – just not in the way you mean.
I will tell you why, because in the end, wrong will be right and right will be wrong. Logic has been removed from our education system and I can see it ever so clearly when trying to draw a similarity between treating cancer in a child and providing damaging drugs to underage children.
for someone who professes to be a fan of logic, you fail the most basic tenets of logical discussion. You make an assertion based on facts not in evidence and then build your case on that unproven claim. These drugs are not, in fact, damaging.
if you wish to invoke “logic” – I suggest you brush up on it’s proper usage.
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Ahhhh, where’s the button that allows me to remove my account??? This is burning my eyes!!!!
and so the truth comes out. Here I’d been treating you as a rational poster.
My mistake.
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When people who refuse to repent of their sexual sins try, an use man made junk science to change God’s Word and Society views. Christian should speak out aginst such evil.
Whenever God’s people refuse to use their God given brains to THINK rather than simply parrot the false doctrine they’ve been taught to believe, thinking men ought to weep over this evil
(although admittedly the temptation is to point and laugh)
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Robert K – You use an interesting tactic and/or you have a massive superiority complex.
Be that as it may, you continue to advocate the chemical alteration of children, even pretending that any other position is insupportable. That remains breathtaking to me.
I suggest you re-read and contemplate Tammy’s contribution at #10. The parents featured in the Boston Globe article are LGBT Activists.
Two cases. Two radically different parental approaches. Two radically different outcomes.
Is this how you analyze every subject? Hand picked anecdotal evidence which supports your pre-determined conclusion?
Well here’s an anecdote for you:
I was born in rural Mississippi in 1963. I was raised in a two parent Christian home and was taken to church faithfully every Sunday either by parents or grandparents without fail in very conservative churches.
At no time during my childhood was I exposed to porn, adult nudity, molestation or other forms of abuse (nor did I ever know of anyone who was). My father was a strong “manly” man who was involved with his sons and encouraged stereotypical manly behavior and discouraged stereotypical female behavior.
I was educated in rural country schools where prayer and patriotism were the lifeblood of the culture.
In this environment, I was fully convinced by the time I reached my eight birthday that I had been born male by mistake and I should have been female. I had no idea there were others like me, and wouldn’t know that for another 2-3 years afterward. I certainly did not know the condition had a name. Not one day in my life thereafter have I ever lacked the firm conviction that I was a female, not so much as for an hour. Even though that knowledge caused me great humiliation when I considered what all my fellow Christians said and thought about people like me. When puberty arrived I spent a great deal of time furiously shaving body hair until my father insisted I stop on pain of a paddling whenever caught. No razor could save me from a deepening voice and a growing body.
I considered myself to be cursed, and prayed God constantly for healing during my teen years. I did indulge the possibility that it was not actually sin for about five years after high school, but I still did not dare embrace it because I knew I’d be considered a freak, so I spent those years on the ragged edge of suicide.
Over these years, I considered openly and rejected utterly the possibility that I was gay – I didn’t find males sexually or physically attractive in ANY sense (though I did, and do, sense that as a female, it is not comfortable to me to be intimate with females and am open to the idea that post-transition I will be attracted to men – that’s yet to be determined)
until, in the summer before my 23rd birthday, I responded to an alter call at a Freddie Gage crusade where Bro. Gage had preached convincingly that god would indeed heal anyone from their “besetting sin” if they would only give their whole life to his service and turn the problem over to him. i did so in complete faith, believing god would provide deliverance from my cursed affliction.
for the next 20 years I honed my skills as a super-christian, doing everything the door would open for me to do to serve the Lord including teaching and preaching as a licensed Southern Baptist minister – yes, even teaching that same doctrine that homosexuality and transsexualism were sinful choices that God could and would save a man from.
My prayers were utter repentance, complete unreserved faith, and presistant in repetition crying out with tears during that time to be healed as soon as god willed it and “even so do it quickly O Lord” and, eventually, “How long O, Lord?”
You would find not so much as a DAY in my life to that point on which i would have said “I want to be transsexual” or “I like it” or even “I’m okay with it”
I despised the curse with every fiber of my being. don’t EVER tell me people choose to be this way.
And yet, I was just as firmly convinced in 2006 that i was in fact a female in my soul, mind and spirit as i had been every previous day of my life for the previous 35+ years.
so why don’t you, in your infinite wisdom, explain to me how I got this way if I wasn’t born with it?
(to say nothing of the thousands of other transsexuals my age and older who have very similar histories)
Enlighten me.
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Oh, and I meant to add: my kudos to Robert K for bringing the deep science, in spite of some among us having no appreciation for it.
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I completely agree. The bible makes clear that both homosexuality and this kind of “Gender Reassignment Surgery” is completely unacceptable.
Oh? Please cite the applicable Scripture which references Gender Reassignment Surgery. I’ve studied the book for years, in great depth where it concerns these subjects, yet somehow missed that part – but I’m always willing to learn.
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…Gender Management Services Clinic at Children’s Hospital…
Stop right there. We need to talk about this first.
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Robert K – Theres extensive screening before the (harmless) puberty blockers are used, another battery before hormones, and during hormones leading up to any prospective surgery
Well, that makes me feel all better.
And, despite the coincidence in terminology, “railroading” is a completely different concept than “tracking”. The interview refers to the subtle, almost unavoidable pressure of authority exerted by a Doctor on child patients and their parents. And the Doctor may be perfectly sincere; not recognizing how his or her presuppositions affect the “outcome” (see: Sigmund Freud).
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Tammybeth wrote (ref #40) – I stood to lectern and pulpit and taught it [McHugh's view] to others for almost 20 years.
You are telling us you changed your mind after 20 years. Does that assure that you are now thinking right? Think again.
So…you don’t KNOW what it did to his sons
You actually think it’s a wild assumption that near-teen boys would be damaged by the abandonment of their father in every possible sense of the word? As a matter of fact, my wife knew my boss’s wife and heard plenty of the sad and sordid details. But, no I wasn’t involved in any psychological assessment of the boys, so I didn’t claim to know the long-term effects on their psyches.
I suppose in your world, as long as everyone does what appears most pleasurable to them at that moment, everything will work out fine. Sort of a Pollyanna for a Brave New World. Oh, but there I go, assuming again.
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Tammy, I hope your comments inspire people as they do me. It is a gift to have wisdom and understanding, so important to be gentle, patient and wise with kids while they are in our care. There are different degrees of indecision about gender, most of that just part of being a child and growing up. It truly takes time. It takes discernment to know when science is really called for. It used to be we had “tomboys” and a longer childhood. People allowed kids plenty of time to explore their world and find out who they were. I don’t understand the adults who are made so anxious by this sometimes scary, very individual process they say their kids “decided” x at age 7. Kids can be very convincing and then change their mind just like that. Allow kids to finish figuring things out, be the unfinished miracle they are and be patient!
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Tammybeth – Look, I don’t have time to respond to the volumes you choose to write. I will address some excerpts. Also, I don’t minimize your personal pain. But I do note that Paul had an unspecified, but apparently serious affliction that he finally (and firmly) accepted that God would not remove. I believe it was very purposeful that this affliction was never detailed. It serves as an example for all of us.
Put more specifically, I insist that the transsexual condition is NOT sin, either in it’s existence or in the treatment of it via transition. I maintain that logically to condemn it thus is inconsistent with what God has revealed of his nature, and that there is no indisputable Scriptural support for condemning it.
At length I had to ask myself if I believed in a God who would condemn me as a sinner for something which I had dedicated 20 solid years to repenting from, or was it more likely i’d been taught a false doctrine?
You can put me among the fairly large contingent who strongly considered suicide as a young person (to the point of planning). In my case, this was due to a generalized “I don’t fit in this world” feeling. We all live with besetting sins. I think it is a very risky path to “decide” that since God hasn’t taken away my besetting sin, it must not be a sin. Repeated in the Book of Judges several times, “In those days every man did what was right in his own eyes”. That was not a statement of approval.
Using the term “mutilation” is a weak rhetorical tactic designed to inflame emotions in the absence of actual factual evidence.
So, you and Robert K are allowed to show emotion in terms of the seriousness of this, but those on the other side must stay cool, calm, and collected. Sorry, we are human, too. And we care about these children as much as you do.
also, mentioning “surgical” is a red herring since no surgery is ever performed on those younger than 16
I guess that makes it an “almost” red herring. Which is of course not a red herring at all.
Repeating – more slowly for the slower among us . . . Try to keep up.
Argument by insult. Very classy.
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TammyBeth,
Thank you for your answers. This is obviously a very controversial topic. For me personally the challenge is to determine where I am in fact ignorant of significant factual elements of the issue. I have never been aware of personally knowing an individual who has struggles such as you describe. I have know people whose attitudes and behaviors I have clearly considered sin.
I have no trouble treating an individual person whose heart I understand with grace. My challenge is to be gracious toward the topic without giving license to those who are in fact simply rebelling against God and His standards.
It is not surprising that “self-control” is part of the fruit of the Spirit of God working in us. It is something that we all struggle with. Whether it is lust or judgmentalism we are in need of God’s help to control those natural sins.
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This is the age of fight as to who knowns better God or man.
Man comes up with all sort of ideas and false teaching to justify the lust of the flesh and their desire not to repent and turn back to God. The Word of God is clear He made man to be a man a woman to be a woman. What we face today with the sexual issues facing men / women is the result of the fall of man and our sinful nature. That does not want to surrender to God.
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sorry should read
This is the age old fight as to who knowns better God or man.
Man comes up with all sort of ideas and false teaching to justify the lust of the flesh and their desire not to repent and turn back to God. The Word of God is clear He made man to be a man a woman to be a woman. What we face today with the sexual issues facing men / women is the result of the fall of man and our sinful nature. That does not want to surrender to God.
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This is a battle again between man’s desire and ideas versus God and His Word.
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An those who are wrapped up in this false teaching that we are seeing spread here by those who promote the GLBT Community.. Are not going to listen to the Word of God because they have decided to promote man made ideas over God’s Word.
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Yeah, The Bible says very clearly that the whole GLBT community is sinful.
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Is there anyone (except ONE) that the Bible says is not sinful?
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Re Neil Evans
The Bible says that everyone (excluding Christ) is sinful.
I don’t understand your point.
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Neil Evans
the issue is not Is there anyone (except ONE) that the Bible says is not sinful?
It is will we permitted man’s views to change God’s Standards.
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In today society in regard to the GLBT Commuinty, there is this desire to change God’s Standards to meet their desires…
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Yeah, I agree with Pastor Roy…
The fact that humanity is sinful doesn’t make sinning ok.
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What is the point of saying all “any group” is sinful?
If we want to list specific verses that describe specific attitudes and behaviors as sins that seems appropriate and germane. But to say broadly that some group is sinful seems pointless to me. It would be accurate but pointless to say, for instance, all pastors are sinful, or all politicians are sinful. Unless the point being made is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
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This debate raises a very important question. How do we handle the conflict, when we find our world view is in conflict with God’s Word?
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Yes, I see your point Neil Evans…
But if I understand it, it would be impossible to stop any form of sin.
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Yes, these are very important questions. And it is vital that we understand accurately both our world and God’s Word. To misunderstand either makes our representation of Jesus both inaccurate and ineffective.
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Neil Evans
Here is another question can someone be gay and be a Christian?
The answer is yes as long as they avoid the GLBT Life Style. The attraction is not the sin, the respond to the attraction is the sin.
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To misunderstand either makes our representation of Jesus both inaccurate and ineffective.
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Correct
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What is happen today, is we have people in side the Church. Who have decide instead of surrendering to God and His Word that it would be easer to just change God’s Word to support their views. They use this idea that society has said it is ok to act a certain way.
The question and debate with in side the church is how do we deal with such people. Do we leave them alone and let them continue to lead people away from Christ or do we confront them.
Are such people who refuse to surrender to the Word of God, Christians?
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I don’t think our community role as Christians is to stop the sins of others. I think our role is to help them realize the consequences of their sin, how God can help them know His forgiveness, and how God can help them enjoy life pleasing Him.
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Neil Evans 110 – But to say broadly that some group is sinful seems pointless to me
While we all commit sins, we do have to deal with those who form themselves into groups to promote sin as “non-sin”. The Christian Abolitionists did in the 1800’s had to respond to the very powerful group of slaveholders. You don’t have to think too long about what went on with these white slaveholders having full control over many women to realize that they had “defined sin down” to the point that they (and their families) were somehow able to live with it – and even propound it. But God allowed that system to be brought down and now the sin of slaveholding is almost universally rejected. So there is hope.
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Jesus confront sin in 2 ways.. He confront the person and he also confront the groups.
We see Paul in his written confronting the Churches as a group.
There a time to confront a person and there is a time to confront a group.
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Also we see in the Old Testament where God use Prophets to Confront the Kings personal then used the Prophets to confront the Nation.
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Surrender is THE issue. But it is to be applied in every arena. The specific topic of this thread is the Christian response to people desiring sex change procedures.
From my perspective there seems to be two fundamental questions. We are accountable to surrender the God’s answer to each question.
1. Do we know accurately what prompts or motivates an individuals interest in sex change procedures?
2. Are we applying accurately the Bibles directives for specific attitudes and behaviors?
I think we are being asked to consider if it is possible that sin has corrupted our world to such an extent that it has malformed the sexual parts of some people’s bodies and brains. And, if that is so, to what extent and in what manner is it appropriate for us to correct them.
This particular issue is unique because it involves parts of our body that are readily used sinfully. To correct a club foot, or separate conjoined twins to allow normal body functions does not carry the same implications. If what TammyBeth is describing is simply (but admittedly very profoundly) correcting a birth defect and allowing a person to function normally then I don’t believe the Bible would describe either the procedure or the resulting behaviors sin. The challenge is to accurately and effectively address those who would use this unique situation to find allowance for clearly sinful sexual attitudes and behaviors.
This is admittedly a very difficult discussion to participate in wisely and effectively. I know that I don’t do it well.
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Neil Evans – the question must be asked do they need to change their body which society say must happen, or are they being influenced by our side groups to do such action. To justify their sinful desires.
When what they need is Spirtual and mental help to deal with their desire.
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I agree that that is a crucial question. But we must be willing to really listen to their perspective and wisely evaluate their claim of scientific evidence. That is not easily done with this issue.
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Tammy – happy to help! I think a flaw of many scientists is that they, as a community, have forgotten that in addition to determining facts they also must adequately communicate them. I hope I’ve helped bridge that gap, and if I sometimes got emotional, well I hope people can be understanding. It is hard to see someone you love suffering unbearable pain and have to be reasonable with those that say ‘well it’s just her sinful choice, it’s all in her head.’
TWH – then if the doctors are subtly causing these results, why are they so often negative? Why does so often the doctors discover exactly what Tammy found – that it was a confusion of gender role interests with gender identity, or a confusion of sexual orientation with gender identity? Why do most cases go in that direction? Are there only a few ‘bad apple’ doctors causing this? If so why does it spring up in every country on this planet? Most doctors have patients from a similar geographic background, surely we’d see high concentration areas? Yet the only ones we find are among adults who are aware they’re transgender before they relocate.
Pastor Roy – 30 years ago it was believed that gender was a social construct, and that transgender was impossible because it was impossible for there to be a physical basis for any difference between the sexes. Science has moved on. There is a physical basis, and it is NOT the Y hormone. In the 1996 winter olympics they had genetic testing for female athletes. Six women failed. All were determined to have been born female, and yet they had a Y chromosome.
I submit that when you say “god created them men and women” that god did not create an easy way for us to figure that out.
Have you ever considered that God might have intended out method of figuring it out to be… Just asking?
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Neil Evans – scientific evidence can not over ride God’s Word. Which is the key The Word of God is the standard for Christian’s to live by.
The problem facing today people who trapped in the GLBT Community, they are being told that they do not need to repent of their sins and they do not need to stop being involved in the GBT Community life Stlye. An that God’s Word is wrong.
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Pastor Roy, are you saying that if a person’s sex organs or sex governing brain functions are malformed at birth, that person is sinning if they seek to be anything other than the prevailing sexual organs indicate?
I must say that I agree with your deep concern for people caught up the sexual sins of our day (really all of human history). I am just trying to wrestle with the seemingly reasonable testimonies we have read here.
Sin has corrupted all of life. Every birth defect is the result of our collective sin. Could it not be that our sin could corrupt our sex organs and brain chemistry as well? If so we must respond with informed grace as we do with any other birth defect. AND we must at the same time hold God’s Word as The standard of our faith and practice. It has never been easy.
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Pastor Roy, are you saying that if a person’s sex organs or sex governing brain functions are malformed at birth, that person is sinning if they seek to be anything other than the prevailing sexual organs indicate?
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I would advise to be careful, many of these ideas of sex governing brain functions are malformed at birth, is just a reason given to have sex change. Now we have very few cases the wrong sex organs. Which then I could understand a sex change for.
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I must say that I agree with your deep concern for people caught up the sexual sins of our day (really all of human history). I am just trying to wrestle with the seemingly reasonable testimonies we have read here.
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The question are the reasonable testimonies or are they testimonies based of false teaching and false man made junk science.
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Sin has corrupted all of life. Every birth defect is the result of our collective sin. Could it not be that our sin could corrupt our sex organs and brain chemistry as well? If so we must respond with informed grace as we do with any other birth defect. AND we must at the same time hold God’s Word as The standard of our faith and practice. It has never been easy.
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The question is a sex change that what is need or is it Spritual and Mental Help that is what is need?
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Neil Evans – Another question are these poor people just tools of a group of people that wanted to change God’s Word to support their sinful needs.
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Spiritual help is necessary in every life. The question is whether or not medical help is also appropriate.
All I am saying is that with my limited ability to understand the scientific conversation, I am listening.
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Robert K 124 – You have presented a large number of things as “true” in your questions, without any substantiation. In fact, the only references in this whole thread that relate to this subject were mine – and indicated the opposite.
then if the doctors are subtly causing these results, why are they so often negative?
Why does so often the doctors discover exactly what Tammy found – that it was a confusion of gender role interests with gender identity, or a confusion of sexual orientation with gender identity?
Are there only a few ‘bad apple’ doctors causing this?
If so why does it spring up in every country on this planet?
Most doctors have patients from a similar geographic background, surely we’d see high concentration areas? Yet the only ones we find are among adults who are aware they’re transgender before they relocate.
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Twh – I gave you very specific references, and even links, as well as explaining why your quickly googled sources were inaccurate. The fact that you think I have not given them suggests to me you are not reading what I write.
That might explain a lot to me here.
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All I am saying is that with my limited ability to understand the scientific conversation, I am listening.
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Neil I agree about listening, In my Spirit I sense alot of false ideas being present.
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Roy – Zhou, Kruijiver et al did not produce ‘junk science.’ It is, on the contrary, very good science, done targeting a very specific gender-differentiated region of the brain. They used control subjects including transsexuals who were not taking hormones and non-transgendered individuals with atypically high or low hormone levels consistent with what was prescribed for the transgendered people.
Their p values, especially in the second study, were quite good. They took into account confounding factOrs, and addressed them.
You may not like their results, but by the standards of science, that was good science.
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Paid for by who? Who provided the Grant for the study? Since it is common for the GLBT Commuinty and their supporters to pay for man made junk science and then present as being true science.
I believe it is again just man made junk science.
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but by the standards of science, that was good science.
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An if the standard of science is based on man made junk science. Then what does that tell us?
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Now I have repsonded enough to the supporters of such man made junk science.
To my friend Neil Evans I would encourage you to keep listin but also asked the question where is the money for such studies coming from.
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Robert K – I’m happy to read your references, but I can’t read your mind. The only references I can find from you were for some brain studies. These don’t impinge on the bold statements you made in 124. You did make some accusations that McHugh is wrong, but that’s all they were – an argument from some unknown authorities that McHugh is not to be trusted.
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Based on my reading on study produce to support the GLBT Community ideas. These studies are funding by strong GLBT Community supporters and have a history of hiding their true results in order to favor the Community. In the process they work very hard to discredit anyone report that shows their views are being wrong.
So when the supporters of the GLBT Community start to throw out study results as we see here. I question the result.
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TWH – you mean studies that show a proven link between brain structures and transgenderism? That also show its not related to hormone levels? Well, guess you finally did notice.
As for bold statements, which? That there are transgender people in every country? I suppose I can’t prove that, North Korea probably has ‘no transgender people’ and Iran definitely doesn’t have any gay people, etc etc
The bold statement that gender has proven to not be a social construct? ’cause this is like welcome to the early 80s folks.
As for the fact that McHugh is full of crap look at his arguments:
If gender were a social construct, transgender people would have psychological problems.
The mass review caused by David Reimer’s case shows gender is not simply a social construct
Therefore transgender people are suffering from a purely psychological problem
I need sources to rebutt this now? The argument is inherently worthless. Have we all regressed back to the point where all we can do is use google to find links?
Go read McHugh’s drivel. Try to summarize his arguments into concise logical points. Marvel at how very impossible it is to do, at their massive failure to even exist.
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Roy – at what point in the process did bias get injected?
Question: do transgender people actually have physical differences within he brain?
Background research: the BSTc size is strongly linked to sex, and based on rat studies may have something to do with gender. Good a place as any to start
Procedure: physically examine the BSTc
Check: ensure hormones are not responsible for size change.
Method: gather appropriate cadavars including control cadavars with abnormal hormone levels due to unrelated conditions. Do autopsies.
Results: you have learned by now
They have pictures of people’s brains for goodness sake, how did bias sneak in?
If you are accusing two different peer reviewed studies of being wrong and funded by some shadowy conspiracy why don’t you do the legwork instead of asking others to do it for you? Frankly you’re not going to believe what I say anyway.
You can get bad science past peer review but the key is to pick an out-of-the-way corner that no one uses, have few coauthors, and make sure your procedure is difficult to replicate. Not plop down in the middle or a perennially hot-button issue with a cadaver study.
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Oh and for fun I picked out one of the lies in McHugh’s little article:
————
Reiner’s results, reported in the January 22, 2004, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, are worth recounting. He followed up sixteen genetic males with cloacal exstrophy seen at Hopkins, of whom fourteen underwent neonatal assignment to femaleness socially, legally, and surgically. The other two parents refused the advice of the pediatricians and raised their sons as boys. Eight of the fourteen subjects assigned to be females had since declared themselves to be male. Five were living as females, and one lived with unclear sexual identity. The two raised as males had remained male. All sixteen of these people had interests that were typical of males, such as hunting, ice hockey, karate, and bobsledding. Reiner concluded from this work that the sexual identity followed the genetic constitution. Male-type tendencies (vigorous play, sexual arousal by females, and physical aggressiveness) followed the testosterone-rich intrauterine fetal development of the people he studied, regardless of efforts to socialize them as females after birth. Having looked at the Reiner and Meyer studies, we in the Johns Hopkins Psychiatry Department eventually concluded that human sexual identity is mostly built into our constitution by the genes we inherit and the embryogenesis we undergo. Male hormones sexualize the brain and the mind. Sexual dysphoria—a sense of disquiet in one’s sexual role—naturally occurs amongst those rare males who are raised as females in an effort to correct an infantile genital structural problem. A seemingly similar disquiet can be socially induced in apparently constitutionally normal males, in association with (and presumably prompted by) serious behavioral aberrations, amongst which are conflicted homosexual orientations and the remarkable male deviation now called autogynephilia.
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See any small issues there? LIKE THR FACT E LEFT JOHN HOPKINS IN 2001 AND THR STUDY WAS PUBLISHED IN 2004?
(he shut down the gender identity clinic in 1979, for reference)
Sadly Paul McHugh kept the true groundbreaking parts of his work, the time travel bits, totally separate.
This man is a liar and a cheat, TWH. I was trying to keep this at the science level but if we want to go into the whole sordid history of infant sex reassignment (yes, INFANT) and the social theory of gender, which John Hopkins lead the charge on, we can. If we want to get into what really happened we can.
Or we can conclude that this says nothing about transgender and move on.
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RobertK,
You are critical of our skepticism. From my perspective, while your descriptions of your conclusions are understandable I am not qualified to understand the substance of your scientific arguments. I simply need more knowledgeable and reliable people to address this quite frankly surprising information. While you should be able to expect our courteous questions, it is unreasonable for you to expect us simply to accept your position without much more exposure. After all it not unheard of for people to manipulate science to further their agenda.
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Robert K – You made strong, specific claims in 124 that I asked you to substantiate in 132. Your first response was to wrongly claim that you had already provided this substantiation. When I pointed out that you had not, you resorted to argument by insult in your latest response to me.
Nobody asked you to make those claims. Since you did, I think we have a right to substantiation or retraction of the points in bold in #132.
Per Wikipedia. Dr. McHugh is still at Johns Hopkins. And this man who you would like us to believe is a small-minded hater has this to his credit.
“McHugh also treated author Tom Wolfe for depression suffered following coronary bypass surgery. Wolfe dedicated his 1998 novel, A Man in Full to McHugh, ‘whose brilliance, comradeship and unfailing kindness saved the day.”’
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You are telling us you changed your mind after 20 years. Does that assure that you are now thinking right? Think again.
Does it MAKE me right? Heck no. Does it make me the only person in this change who has seriously considered their viewpoint with an open mind and a willingness to accept my views might be wrong?
Yup.
You actually think it’s a wild assumption that near-teen boys would be damaged by the abandonment of their father in every possible sense of the word?
I think you describe the situation in terms which reflect your own bias. Tailored to support the claim you wish to make.
my wife knew my boss’s wife and heard plenty of the sad and sordid details.
all expressed in the point of view of a (rightfully) unhappy ex and colored by an intolerant viewpoint like yours – what would she be expected to say, “I’m happy he’s happy”?
First rule of divorce – EXPECT ex’s to badmouth ex’s, be shocked if they don’t.
I suppose in your world, as long as everyone does what appears most pleasurable to them at that moment, everything will work out fine.
You spin it as if you can choose between this thing, which is kinda ok, and the other thing which would be really great.
the actual choice is between this thing which makes me so bitterly depressed that i never spend a day without seriously contemplating doing violence to myself, or that other thing which also has a lot of downside, but at least allows me to have a reasonably normal state of mental health.
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But I do note that Paul had an unspecified, but apparently serious affliction that he finally (and firmly) accepted that God would not remove
Indeed. And if Paul had lived in 2011 and medical science had said “we can take care of that pain on an out-patient basis in an hour” would you have counseled Paul to have the procedure, or accept that God willed he be in pain?
Context is important.
We all live with besetting sins. I think it is a very risky path to “decide” that since God hasn’t taken away my besetting sin, it must not be a sin.
A poor description – try this: “decide that god has not taken away my besetting sin, thus it is not unwise to re-examine whether or not I’ve understood properly whether or not it IS a sin”
The church has been wrong before – pretty routinely. god is infallible, men are not.
Repeated in the Book of Judges several times, “In those days every man did what was right in his own eyes”. That was not a statement of approval.
which has what, exactly, to do with carefully examianing Scripture and finding no conclusive support for the false doctrine I’d been believing?
if I wanted to do “what was right in my own eyes” I could have done that much more freely without concerning myself with exegesis. Or with discussions like this one.
So, you and Robert K are allowed to show emotion…
what emotion? I gave a factual account of events. I did not use pejorative language, which you did.
Argument by insult. Very classy
At least as classy as repeating already refuted points as if the repetition makes them more valid.
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I have no trouble treating an individual person whose heart I understand with grace. My challenge is to be gracious toward the topic without giving license to those who are in fact simply rebelling against God and His standards.
It is not surprising that “self-control” is part of the fruit of the Spirit of God working in us. It is something that we all struggle with. Whether it is lust or judgmentalism we are in need of God’s help to control those natural sins.
I sincerely appreciate the grace of your communications and point to it as an example for others.
In response to this point I would only offer this thought to consider:
At what point are we, as believers and nominal representatives of the King, “giving license” and at what point are we simply showing grace in the face of a complex subject in which fair minded people may disagree? It seems to me that where there is legitimate cause for a sincere difference of opinion on the interpretation and application of God’s word, it behoves believers to show a great deal of grace. As Romans 14 says, it is not for us to judge another’s servant and none of the people around us answer to us for our behavior.
If a Catholic and a Baptist discuss Baptism, they will not agree, but they will (usually) not try to tear each other down over the disagreement. both understand that in eternity, God will tell us who was right and who was wrong but neither will be condemned for getting it wrong. We see through a glass darkly and do the best we can.
In like manner, it seems to me, it’s perfectly ok for one Christian to say “I do not believe being gay (for instance) is godly behavior” and another to say “I believe they are born that way and it is not sin”
Neither stands to account before the other, and if both sincerely seek to reflect God’s word and will, neither are “giving license. In Eternity, we’ll find out which view was correct – in the mean time, let’s be careful not to drive people from the foot of God over vain disputations.
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Yeah, The Bible says very clearly that the whole GLBT community is sinful.
Please provide details.
This debate raises a very important question. How do we handle the conflict, when we find our world view is in conflict with God’s Word?
My worldview was quite lined up with yours. The problem was it wasn’t lined up with the ACTUAL world. One of the FIRST things you do when you see something that doesn’t line up with what you THINK the Bible says, is to go first and be very very VERY sure WHAT it ACTUALLY says lest you be in error (as men have been in error about Scripture in one way or another for thousands of years)
But if I understand it, it would be impossible to stop any form of sin.
the only sin you are obkidged to try to stop is in your own life, and in even that you will fail. God’s holy spirit stops sin, not any man.
that’s the one thing you lot never seem to wrap your mind around:
One of two things are true – either I belong to God, or i don’t.
if I don’t, he has no real interest in my sin stopping nor should you
but if I AM in fact his child, Hid Holy Spirit is infinately more powerful than you when it comes to correcting any sin I might have.
so where, in that whole equation, does it come up that it’s YOUR place to stop someone ELSE’S sin?
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The answer is yes as long as they avoid the GLBT Life Style. The attraction is not the sin, the respond to the attraction is the sin.
“Man looks upon the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart”
“If a man think to do a thing in his heart, he has done it”
But that’s a complex thing so lets make it more simple – it is your argument that God says to a person, any person: “you have a natural born desire to do a thing – a thing that is a normal human function just as much as breathing or eating, but I command that you refrain from ever doing this thing throughout your entire life”
How does that sort of instruction square with the God of grace Paul wrote about and Jesus exemplified?
Emotional attraction, sexual attraction – thees things are innate to the human experience. it’s all very convenient for YOU to indulge in these things which, some would argue, make life worth living and yet callously say to the gay person “no love for you!”
I see nothing Christian about such an attitude.
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The Christian Abolitionists did in the 1800’s had to respond to the very powerful group of slaveholders. You don’t have to think too long about what went on with these white slaveholders having full control over many women to realize that they had “defined sin down” to the point that they (and their families) were somehow able to live with it – and even propound it. But God allowed that system to be brought down and now the sin of slaveholding is almost universally rejected. So there is hope.
you left out the part where the slaveholders defended their practices as perfectly Biblical (and frankly, given the role of slavery in Biblical culture, a superficial reading (of the same sort which finds transsexuals and gays to be sinful by nature) would support their views.
what you don’t get is that the modern equivilant of the abolitionist in this thread is me, not you. It’s YOU that is defending the traditions of men against those who come forth and say “we’ve been wrong”, not the other way round.
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Neil Evans – the question must be asked do they need to change their body which society say must happen, or are they being influenced by our side groups to do such action. To justify their sinful desires.
why do you keep saying “society says”? what friggin society do you live in exactly? THIS society, in the united states/ the one that says that people like me are freaks and perverts? the ones who insist in the majority view that i’m an abomination unfit to be seen in public and a danger to little children in any restroom? The society who is ashamed to give me a job and who cares not if many of my sisters go homeless lest they soil the eyes of fine upstanding folks like yourself?
THAT society?
I promise you my brother, when I was listening to what “society says” I was toeing the “be a man!” act right down the line. That’s what “society” told me from my earliest memory, “boys(men ) do X and girls(women) do Y – you are a boy and you had BETTER act like one our you will be an outcast and a pariah, even to the ones who say they love you”
THAT is what “society says” to transsexual individuals. 4o years ago and today. Even in the most “liberal” of states, we are laughed at, abused, mocked, attacked, killed…we are unemployed, homeless, lonely, rejected by parents friends and family alike…
All because we had the courage/foolishness to admit what we really are.
What “society says” to me ain’t nothing even remotely similar to what you CLAIM “society says” on these boards.
When what they need is Spirtual and mental help to deal with their desire
both routinely applied to this condition, neither ever effective in healing it. The most that can be obtained is enduring a miserable repression in order to conform to the traditions of men.
I believe in a God who says he has made me “free indeed” – not one who demands I be bound in repression in order to follow cultural rules.
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Neil Evans – scientific evidence can not over ride God’s Word. Which is the key The Word of God is the standard for Christian’s to live by.
the same God who gifted us with the intelligence to DO science, the same God who said “come now, let us REASON together”
God has not called us to ignorance, or demanded we be stupid for his name’s sake.
A REAL god, and a RATIONAL God who can be understood and responded to would NOT have given us a physical creation to operate within which is at odds with His revealed word. thus, LOGICALLY, if we find an apparent conflict, we have most likely misunderstood the Word.
the simplest explanation is almost always the right one.
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I would advise to be careful, many of these ideas of sex governing brain functions are malformed at birth, is just a reason given to have sex change. Now we have very few cases the wrong sex organs. Which then I could understand a sex change for.
Pithy advise, and yet through dozens upon dozens of posts on two separate threads on the subject you have not even ATTEMPTED to demonstrate FROM SCRIPTURE that your assertion that transexual transition is sinful is correct.
why should Neil or anyone else accept your testimony that the science can be trusted over God’s word when you have cited NO evidence from God’s word for your claim?
Furthermore, if you accept the reality that a tiny percentage of people have gender related deformities of the body, upon what logical basis do you deny the possibility that the part of the body thus affected is sometimes the brain?
don’t just make unsupported claims – those convince no one who does not already share your bias. provide EVIDENCE that the scientific claims made are false and your Scriptural calims are true.
IF you can.
My bet is you haven’t the first clue how to meet either of those challenges and your reply to this post will amount to another reputation of “because i’m a pastor and I say so”
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I believe it is again just man made junk science.
He who cannot provide support for ANY of his claims is in a poor position to question the validity of anyone’s science.
You are just parroting what the guy on the radio tells you to think. have you ever actually thought for yourself on this subject AT ALL?
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Based on my reading on study produce to support the GLBT Community ideas. These studies are funding by strong GLBT Community supporters and have a history of hiding their true results in order to favor the Community. In the process they work very hard to discredit anyone report that shows their views are being wrong.
So when the supporters of the GLBT Community start to throw out study results as we see here. I question the result.
Question: NARTH research (when they actually do research instead of just misrepresenting the work of others) is always wholly supported by right-wing anti-gay religious groups.
Is it therefore all junk and not to be trusted to prove anything/
or would you like fries with your double standards?
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“McHugh also treated author Tom Wolfe for depression suffered following coronary bypass surgery. Wolfe dedicated his 1998 novel, A Man in Full to McHugh, ‘whose brilliance, comradeship and unfailing kindness saved the day.”’
About as irrelevant a reference regarding the subject at hand as one could possibly find.
For you folks who are pointing to the laudable character and trustworthiness of Dr. McHugh, and disbelieving the idea that he would let his religion trump his science, let’s not what the Catholic McHugh had to say about the Priest child-molestation crisis:
McHugh is also known for his work defending Catholic priests against sex abuse charges. He was a founder and board member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, and he was named to a lay panel assembled by the Roman Catholic Church in 2002 to look into sexual abuse by priests, which led to protests from victims’ rights groups.
“McHugh, after all, is the man whose report to the court in one case stated that a defendant’s harassing phone calls were not obscene — including the call that detailed a fantasy of a 4-year-old sex slave locked in a dog cage and fed human waste. At least eight men have been convicted of sexually abusing Maryland children while under treatment at the “sex disorders” clinic McHugh runs at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine — abuse the doctors did not report, citing client confidentiality. When Maryland law was changed to require that doctors report child molestation, the clinic fought it and advised patients on how to get around the law. [4]
McHugh added:
”What did surprise me was the response of the world out there: that they somehow thought Catholics wouldn’t be infuriated by this and do their best to stop it,” he said. ”I mean, I grew up in a little Catholic ghetto up in Massachusetts back in the 30’s. If there’d been anything like that there, there would’ve been broken heads amongst the priests.”
The New York Times adds, “Of course, it did happen in Massachusetts. A growing number of Catholics in that state are calling for the resignation of Cardinal Bernard F. Law, after disclosures in The Boston Globe that the Archdiocese of Boston had moved a priest, accused of being a child molester, from parish to parish.” [5]
It’s worth noting that in his defense of obscene phone calls made by American University President Richard Berendzen in 1992, McHugh oversaw recovering memories with the use of sodium amytal, and said that Berendzen suffered from “a kind of post-traumatic disorder,” [6] two concepts McHugh has questioned in other cases.
It would appear that McHugh was more interested in the reputation of his priests than in scientific – or moral – truth.
THAT is your hero folks. Keep citing him.
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TWH – wut…
From 1975 till 2001, McHugh was the Henry Phipps Professor of Psychiatry and the director of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science at the Johns Hopkins University. At the same time, he was psychiatrist-in-chief at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. He is currently University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.[8]
That last bit is ‘retired guy we call sometimes position.
Now, TWH, summarize the logical points in McHugh’s paper. It should be easy, you obviously read it and respect it. So just explain the logical points he made, quickly and concisely. And I’ll be very nice and not explain why John Hopkins was doing a follow up study on sex changes in 2004 when they ’stopped doing them’ in 1979.
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Oh and as for what you posted:
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Robert K 124 – You have presented a large number of things as “true” in your questions, without any substantiation. In fact, the only references in this whole thread that relate to this subject were mine – and indicated the opposite.
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I don’t know what you mean when you write things like this. Clear communication is awesome – if you have something very specific you want to discuss, state what it is. I ain’t a mind reader.
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Tammybeth is in filibuster mode. Here are some responses:
I think you describe the situation in terms which reflect your own bias. Tailored to support the claim you wish to make.
Only Tammybeth, Tammy, and I have brought personal stories to this discussion. Tammybeth has minimized and attacked both the others. Enough said.
Tammybeth responded to my use of Biblical references with complete shallowness. Southern Baptist trained? Daydreaming in class?
if Paul had lived in 2011 and medical science had said “we can take care of that pain on an out-patient basis in an hour” would you have counseled Paul to have the procedure, or accept that God willed he be in pain?
Paul accepted his affliction as a gift of God (1 Cor 12: 7-10). He recognized it as God’s Will for him in order to provide an example for others.
[In the days of the Judges every man did that which was right in his own eyes] which has what, exactly, to do with carefully examining Scripture and finding no conclusive support for the false doctrine I’d been believing?
See Judges 2:16-19. The offenders always developed “theological cover” for themselves.
From a response to another poster:
One of two things are true – either I belong to God, or i don’t.
if I don’t, he has no real interest in my sin stopping …
Southern Baptist? Really? Sleeping through every single class! My reference to refute this statement is the entire Bible.
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Tammybeth wrote:
Emotional attraction, sexual attraction – thees things are innate to the human experience. it’s all very convenient for YOU to indulge in these things which, some would argue, make life worth living and yet callously say to the gay person “no love for you!”
Replace “gay” with “pedophile” and this could have been a statement from NAMBLA. Romans 1: 26-27 are useful references to help understand how innate, God-given drives can be perverted.
you left out the part where the slaveholders defended their practices as perfectly Biblical.
Well, yes I did. This was a response to a poster question whether any “group” should be considered sinful. The slaveholders were sinful as a group, and needed to be dealt with as a group.
[Referring to my quote of author Tom Wolfe in praise of Dr. McHugh] About as irrelevant a reference regarding the subject at hand as one could possibly find.
It’s called a character reference. You followed this statement with multiple “purported” quotes from unnamed internet sites by way of character assassination. Reprehensible.
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Robert K 159 – I don’t know what you mean when you write things like this. Clear communication is awesome – if you have something very specific you want to discuss, state what it is. I ain’t a mind reader.
Caught you making statements you couldn’t back up, didn’t I? Read on in #132 (which you partially quoted) and you will see the questions you posed that presented specific things as true which haven’t been substantiated. When I first pointed this out (133) you wrongly said that you HAD substantiated them. When confronted with this, you personally attacked me (141). Now you claim I am being unclear, and continue to disparage both me and Dr. McHugh.
So, once more, with feeling. Here are the questions you posed in 125.
then if the doctors are subtly causing these results, why are they so often negative?
Why does so often the doctors discover exactly what Tammy found – that it was a confusion of gender role interests with gender identity, or a confusion of sexual orientation with gender identity?
Are there only a few ‘bad apple’ doctors causing this?
If so why does it spring up in every country on this planet?
Most doctors have patients from a similar geographic background, surely we’d see high concentration areas? Yet the only ones we find are among adults who are aware they’re transgender before they relocate.
You asked these questions to those of us who are on the other side of the discussion. And yet now you can’t or won’t even provide substantiation for the many truisms involved. You are asking us to defend ourselves against a case you haven’t made.
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Tammybeth has a history of rejecting God’s Word or changing it to meet her needs.
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Emotional attraction, sexual attraction – thees things are innate to the human experience. it’s all very convenient for YOU to indulge in these things which, some would argue, make life worth living and yet callously say to the gay person “no love for you!”
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If the sexual attraction goes against God’s Word it is called a sexual sin.
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Christian’s can not and should not support the sexual sins.
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Yeah, The Bible says very clearly that the whole GLBT community is sinful.
Please provide details.
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Have done in the past and you reject the Word of God.
This debate raises a very important question. How do we handle the conflict, when we find our world view is in conflict with God’s Word?
My worldview was quite lined up with yours. The problem was it wasn’t lined up with the ACTUAL world.
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That is because the ACTUAL world is in conflict with God’s Word.
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Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
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Tammybeth
The ideas you are present is saying that it is ok to walked according to the course of this world, also to prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, to conducted yourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
The idea that you are promoting goes against the need to repent of one sins.
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Roy – at what point in the process did bias get injected?
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When people title their views in order to get money for the grant. Or when the person or groups providing the grants demand the views be written to support their moral values, ideas. Then yes it is bias.
The GLBT Community are know to force people to write their views a certain way in order to get the grants.
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[Referring to my quote of author Tom Wolfe in praise of Dr. McHugh] About as irrelevant a reference regarding the subject at hand as one could possibly find.
It’s called a character reference. You followed this statement with multiple “purported” quotes from unnamed internet sites by way of character assassination. Reprehensible.
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That is what the supporters of the GLBT Community do.
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They launch into character assassination to try an discredit anyone research that does not support their views.
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I feel like I’m talking to a wall here. TWH you again quoted something I wrote and again said that it proved I was lying or some such but you haven’t given me any specific questions.
If you just wish to declare yourself some sort of meaningless ‘victor’ here, I have no real objection. You win one Internet, have a gold star.
If you want to engage in a dialogue with me you have to actually ask me something, and I still don’t know what you’re asking.
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Roy – you’re assassinating the character of over a dozen scientists by alledging they falsified evidence and you’re trying to take the high ground on Tammy by saying she’s reprehensible by not finding Tom Wolfe a medical expert?
You eye good sir, there’s a log jammed in it
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Robert K – What I am saying their is a history of the GLBT Community force people to write their views a certain way in order to get the grants.
Is this the case here, well, we have different of views on the research. An you have followed the path of which the GLBT Community after payingh for their research by attacking the other person research.
Since I have such behavior before it leads me again to question the money trial and how it has impacted the research.
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sorry should read
Since I have SEEN such behavior before, it leads me again to question the money trial and how it has impacted the research.
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I am disappointed that this thread has taken a turn into support for homosexual behaviors. It does make me suspicious. While I believe the Bible does not label repairative surgery to be sinful, I believe that it clearly declares homosexual behaviors to be sin. With support for questionable procedures to help sexual issues so readily includes homosexual behaviors in it’s agenda I am very suspicious.
Again, Robert K, your scientific comments may seem very clear to you but they are not to me.
TammyBeth, I am sympathetic with your life story. But I must disagree with your apparent support of homosexuality.
This being said, I do believe that our conversations must remain courteous to have any hope of being meaningful to either side.
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Roy, you are accusing the scientists of falsifying research. And you’ve added that you’ve seen it often before.
That’d be blatant character assassination, yes. To accuse a scientist of falsifying research is the same as saying a doctor knowingly botched a procedure. In their professional capacity it is the most serious charge yu could level. To do it without evidence, and then say that ANYONE else is engaging in character assassination… The mind boggles.
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Neil – Id be happy to answer any questions you have.
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The history of researcher being funded by the GLBT Community and their Supporters, having proven the scientists has had a record of falsifying their research. In order to support the claims by the GLBT Community and their Supporters. Is this the case here. WE DO NOT KNOW.
Due to past history, yes I question their results.
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The fact you have spent all this time to discredit another scientists, Who has challenger the finding of those who research seem to favor the GLBT Community views that they are born this way.
Fall right in line with the steps used by the GLBT Community and their supporter. When their scientists were discover falsifying their research. They go to great length to attack or discredit those who revealed the fraud.
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Robert K, at this point I prefer to seek other perspectives.
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Robert K – I’ll bet I know what kind of car you drive. A Dodge. You were bluffing when you tried to make it sound in 125 like there is no clustering of Gender Identity Disorder diagnoses in children. Based on the over-medication of children for ADHD, it would be shocking if there wasn’t geographic and other clustering.
Most likely the LGBT groups have crunched the numbers and didn’t like the clustering they found, so they don’t talk about it. It sounds like you don’t intend to, either.
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Most likely the LGBT groups have crunched the numbers and didn’t like the clustering they found, so they don’t talk about it. It sounds like you don’t intend to, either.
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TWH that is what I am getting at about research being titled a certain way.
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Robert K – I’ll bet I know what kind of car you drive. A Dodge. You were bluffing when you tried to make it sound in 125 like there is no clustering of Gender Identity Disorder diagnoses in children. Based on the over-medication of children for ADHD, it would be shocking if there wasn’t geographic and other clustering.
Most likely the LGBT groups have crunched the numbers and didn’t like the clustering they found, so they don’t talk about it. It sounds like you don’t intend to, either.
since I’m still waiting on even ONE of you to account for a trans kid occurring in rural MS in the 1960’s, i should think the “dodge” accusation is a bit hypocritical.
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RE #160 & 161 – my goodness what an incoherent mess.
Tammybeth responded to my use of Biblical references with complete shallowness
I asked questions – that’s how a discussion works.
Paul accepted his affliction as a gift of God (1 Cor 12: 7-10). He recognized it as God’s Will for him in order to provide an example for others.
You said that in the first place. that doesn’t answer my question.
See Judges 2:16-19. The offenders always developed “theological cover” for themselves.
and how do you know, based on that verse, the the offender in this case is not the transsexual person, but the person who wrongly condemns the transsexual person? You are actively engaged in covering your position with proof-texts, not me.
Southern Baptist? Really? Sleeping through every single class! My reference to refute this statement is the entire Bible.
Let me be sure I understand you correctly – it is your contention that the context of the entire Bible demonstrates that God wants his followers to stop those who do not follow him from sinning. right?
Replace “gay” with “pedophile” and this could have been a statement from NAMBLA.
Bull. If I have to explain to you the difference in the two circumstances then you are not bright enough to even understand the words. but i don’t have to because you do know the difference. that sort of attempt is nothing but the desperation of one who knows that cannot intellectually defend their position and so have to resort to en-flaming emotional responses.
Romans 1: 26-27 are useful references to help understand how innate, God-given drives can be perverted.
Proof-texting again. that verse does not exist in a vacuum, and I note with interest that those who LOVE to discuss Romans 1 seldom have any time for Romans 14. Even though, of course, Romans 1 doesn’t say what you’ve been taught it says.
It’s called a character reference.
So? Why should I assume Tom Wolfe is of high character himself? If Joe Stalin tells you Chairman Mao is a great guy, does that impress you? (no, I’m not comparing Wolfe and McHugh to those guys, it’s called an analogy)
You followed this statement with multiple “purported” quotes from unnamed internet sites by way of character assassination. Reprehensible.
Reprehensible because you don’t like anything which shakes up your predetermined opinion.
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Tammybeth has a history of rejecting Roy’s Word or changing it to meet her needs.
FTFY
If the sexual attraction goes against God’s Word it is called a sexual sin.
which you’ve yet to demonstrate it does. there is a sound exegetical answer to every one of your “traditional” claims on the usual proof-texts (I think I quoted them the last time we crossed swords) – it’s not my fault you cling to the doctrines of men instead of sound interpretation.
hat is because the ACTUAL world is in conflict with God’s Word.
so IF – just for an example – IF there was a verse in the bible that said the earth was flat (of course it doesn’t, it’s just an example) and we come to find out it’s a sphere, then the only godly thing to do is reject that information and say “I’ll stan with Scripture that it is flat!”
That’s your position?
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Roy, that’s one of my favorites!
Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Particularly the bit underlined.
I must observe, however, that it is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand unless one first establishes that being transsexual, or gay, is one of the sins referred to here.
In any case, I’m saved by grace myself, by his gift, and yet you and i disagree on the question of whether or not these things are sexual sins. what now?
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The ideas you are present is saying that it is ok to walked according to the course of this world, also to prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, to conducted yourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
The idea that you are promoting goes against the need to repent of one sins.
Not at all.
I’m not saying “it is okay to commit sexual sins”
what I am saying is “the traditional teaching that transsexuality and homosexuality are sexual sins is a false doctrine, they are not.”
I say this based on proper exegesis and based upon the indisputable evidence which can be rationally observed in the world around us. In combination.
I have no problem with the claim “we need to repent of our sin” – i have a problem with your mistaken definition of what is, in fact, sin.
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When people title their views in order to get money for the grant.
One might as easily accuse you of skewing your views in order to remain employed as a pastor. Just based on that logic.
The GLBT Community are know to force people to write their views a certain way in order to get the grants.
Have i overlooked your response to my observation that anti-gay “research” is likewise logically obliged to their source of funding?
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Tammybeth – Yours is #183 in this string and you have probably written 15% of them yourself. I don’t remember you asking even one time for us to “account for” your condition. With all this text, I may be wrong that you haven’t asked. If I’m right, then you have your answer on why you are “still waiting”.
In order to fulfill your request we would have to know a whole lot more details of your personal story. And not just what you choose to tell us, and the way you choose to frame it. Really, some of the most important “testimony” would come from your parents and others who knew you when you were young enough that you didn’t really know yourself. True, they can’t know what was going on in your mind, but they know the environmental setting of your first 10 years far better than you do. I understand that you firmly believe that environmental factors aren’t involved, but that seems to be an unfounded assertion.
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They launch into character assassination to try an discredit anyone research that does not support their views.
and clearly none of the “good Christian” response to the so-called “gay agenda” would EVER stoop to that level, right?
gotta say Roy, you bring a lot of smiles to my face in these threads, often outright laughter.
—————–
I feel like I’m talking to a wall here.
Oh you ARE! You hadn’t figured that out yet?
You eye good sir, there’s a log jammed in it
To paraphrase Bugs Bunny: “Ironical, idn’t it?”
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I am disappointed that this thread has taken a turn into support for homosexual behaviors. It does make me suspicious. While I believe the Bible does not label repairative surgery to be sinful, I believe that it clearly declares homosexual behaviors to be sin.
I can provide you with some reading material, if you are interested, that elaborates on the verses you have in mind with some exegetical information you might be unaware of.
You have impressed me as a seeker of truth (unlike a couple of other folks here) and if that is indeed the case, and you are open to the idea that you have believed a thing in error, i’ll point you in the right direction.
Beyond that, I can only ask you to re-examine the logic behind the supposition that having a homosexual orientation is not sinful (at least I think that’s what you were trying to say) but acting upon it is, and consider whether such a possibility is consistent with the nature of God. I’ve further thoughts on that but I’ll hold them for now.
All that said, I am always disappointed when narrow minded sorts cannot discuss transsexuals without equating it with homosexuality. the two are entirely different subjects. Still, when falsehood is spoken on either subject I tend to reply anyway.
TammyBeth, I am sympathetic with your life story. But I must disagree with your apparent support of homosexuality.
to clarify: I recognize that the thesis that I was born with a birth defect which accounts for my condition is not only the only rational explanation for it, but is not inconsistent with what science has observed in the world around me. It is so much more rational than any other hypothesis as to be utterly convincing to the rational person, IMO.
That being the case, when I apply what I KNOW of my situation to an analysis of how and why people come to be homosexual, a great many of the same arguments obviously apply.
The wild variety of previous personal experiences (natue of parenting, molestation or absence thereof, and so forth), the MASSIVE social pressure to be straight, the knowledge we have of birth defects and pre-determined characteristics and tendencies – all these and more create a similar rubric to the one i know to be valid in my own case.
and it stands opposed to a claim which is largely unsupported by ANY rational argument – that they choose to be that way. that argument is essentially one which boils down to “I’ve been taught the Bible condemns it, and I can’t possibly be wrong about that, therefore they CAN’T be born that way, therefore they have chosen to sin”
I’m sorry, the latter argument falls apart when one considers one simple reality: that the church has been wrong about what the bible actually says many many times in the past.
In short, is it more rational to believe that the church has misunderstood God AGAIN, or to believe that all the scientific evidence is wrong and human being willingly choose to adopt a life which will make them pariahs and outcasts among all their loved ones and society in general?
sure, Roy will come back and claim society loves gays – but even if that were true (i’ts not) it’s only in the last 30 years or so that they have even been tolerated. that doesn’t explain all the gay people before that.
Can I say for certain that being homosexual is not a sin? Frankly, no, I cannot. but given the parallels between my situation (which I AM confident about) and theirs, and given what I know of church history, I am certain that Christians play a very dangerous game, one with eternal consequences, when they claim it is indisputable that it IS sin.
At the bare minimum, there is enough room for doubt to make it very unwise to take your stand on that hill. IMO.
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. I understand that you firmly believe that environmental factors aren’t involved, but that seems to be an unfounded assertion.
Of course.
Has to be.
Because otherwise you’d have to consider the possibility you are wrong, and THAT can’t possibly be the case so, ipso facto….
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Tammybeth 184 – I hit you hard in #160 on the content of your questions in 147 because you present yourself as a person who has studied and thought deeply on Scripture. Asking whether Paul should have gotten treatment for his affliction if it happened today betrays a lack of understanding of the purpose of the affliction.
I strongly challenged your statement, One of two things are true – either I belong to God, or i don’t. if I don’t, he has no real interest in my sin stopping … I responded by saying that the entire Bible refutes your statement. Your response to that was Let me be sure I understand you correctly – it is your contention that the context of the entire Bible demonstrates that God wants his followers to stop those who do not follow him from sinning. right? Well, you obviously didn’t understand that clearly.
It’s interesting that when I use verses to illustrate points you accuse me of “proof texting”. You can’t lose that game, can you? I can’t possibly provide the full context in this forum, so I should shut up.
And regarding the character reference, I provided one, that was fully sourced to a notable author. You have provided many that are “Internet Specials”.
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Tammybeth 191
You responded to my statement I understand that you firmly believe that environmental factors aren’t involved, but that seems to be an unfounded assertion.
with:
Of course.
Has to be.
Because otherwise you’d have to consider the possibility you are wrong, and THAT can’t possibly be the case so, ipso facto….
Assertions are either founded or unfounded. To this point you haven’t supported your assertion with references. It’s your move.
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Seriously? You think there’s clustering because you… Don’t know there isn’t?
Transsexuals in Japan:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/02/1051382096188.html
Transsexuals in Africa:
http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/pressroom/pressrelease/842.html
Transsexuals seeking political asylumn from Mexico:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16560073
Transsexuals in Brazil:
http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/ijt/97-03/numbers/symposion/ijtc0105.htm
Transsexual pagent
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Sorry, decided to post early.
Anyway,
Pagent in India:
http://m.oneindia.in/news/2010/01/19/india-first-transgender-beauty-pageant-starts.html
China:
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/tianjin-transsexual-gets-new-chinese-id-card-as-a-woman/
Now I suppose they all could have gone to the same doctor, but I’m gonna go with no.
Can’t seriously believe that was your objection :p
P.S. you can have the Yugo, it works as well as your arguments
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TammyBeth, I believe you are saying that there is reasonable evidence for physiological causes for a transsexual orientation. And you seem to be assuming that there is likely a physiological cause for homosexual orientation as well. And, from that foundation you conclude that acting on that physiology which a person did not choose cannot be sin.
I am curious about how you would view passages like 1Cor 6:9,10 which clearly declares a list of behaviors as sin. If you believe that there is physiological cause for homosexual orientation how can you not assume that there are physiological causes for idolatry-orientation, adultery-orientation, thievery-orientation, etc.? And if such is the case how can we say that any of these things are sin. But the Bible does seem to clearly say that these things are sin and does include “practicing homosexuality” these lists.
Concluding, I can see the possibility of malformed bodies and brains causing unnatural sexual conditions (transsexualism) in some individuals. However, I believe that it is a huge jump to conclude that homosexuality is in the same category producing a “homosexual orientation.” The last thing we need is more excuse for our sin.
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Neil – that particular passage has always amused me. Slanderers and drunkards are there on the same level.
Slanderers… “all the scientists falsified evidence!”
Hum dee, carry on, don’t mind me…
P.S. the evidence for homosexuality is less dramatic, but the twin studies say that something is going on. Langstrom, Rahmen et al (2010) contained every adult pair of twins, and the correlation between sexual orientations was highly non-random. Stronger in mono-zygotic (identical) than di-zygotic (non-identical). The scope was literally breathtaking, and the conclusions ironclad. Sexual orientation cares about who your twin is.
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I am curious about how you would view passages like 1Cor 6:9,10 which clearly declares a list of behaviors as sin. If you believe that there is physiological cause for homosexual orientation how can you not assume that there are physiological causes for idolatry-orientation, adultery-orientation, thievery-orientation, etc.?
Because these behaviors are different at the most basic level. gender is a core function of who you are, and there is a specific medically and scientifically discernible pathway to account for how that can be “mal-formed” pre-natally.
Likewise, sexual attraction is a core part of human existance. Homosexuality is a “mal-forming” of that which is an inate part of BEING a human.
things like idolatry and theft and violence are not, other than in the spiritual sense (we are all sinners with a predilection to sin)
Moreover, other than idolatry, almost any other thing you could list as such an example are not “victimless” – the reason we don’t steal is because in your gain, someone loses; we don’t rape because it violates another’s integrity; we don’t murder because someone loses a life.
in the act of consensual homosexuality, there is no sense in which someone loses by our act, and it is intellectually unfair to compare it to acts which do victimize another.
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And if such is the case how can we say that any of these things are sin. But the Bible does seem to clearly say that these things are sin and does include “practicing homosexuality” these lists.
I should also add this: The words used that that the NASB translates “effeminate” and “homosexual” are poorly translated using assumptions that are traditional more so than the best exegesis available.
But it’s far too late for me to get into that tonight. Hopefully i’ll remember to elaborate tomorrow.
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The last thing we need is more excuse for our sin.
another random thought – if the conservative christian contention that we are building a society with more and more license to sin year over year, then how does one account for the reality that demographic studies continue to indicate ~3% or less of the population is homosexual? would it not be logical to assume that with vastly more license now than in 1970, there should be much more incidence of it? Especially given the claim that gays actively recruit?
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Tammybeth 184 – I hit you hard
Wait – so now we’ve descended to you bragging on the quality of your own posts? Classic.
Asking whether Paul should have gotten treatment for his affliction if it happened today betrays a lack of understanding of the purpose of the affliction.
Nonsense. It’s asking you to consider the matter of context. for instance, Paul sent a slave back to his master with instructions to submit. do we thus conclude that Paul and god condone slavery? or do we wisely understand the event within the context of the times in which those men lived?
Referring to the state of the medical arts, then and now, is a necessary bit of context to properly interpret the passage. ALL Scripture has an immediate application to the immediate audience as well as a broader context. Paul commanded that women keep their heads covered in worship services, yet modern churches wisely understand that instruction is not binding on modern women.
context matters. IF you want to properly understand and not just find what you went looking for.
Well, you obviously didn’t understand that clearly
why don’t you explain it then?
It’s interesting that when I use verses to illustrate points you accuse me of “proof texting”.
Only when you mis-use it. It seems clear to me that through exegesis is not a skill you practice regularly. I suspect everything you know about the Bible consists of what preachers and teachers have told you it says. That’s not a slander, it’s true of 90% of Christians.
I can’t possibly provide the full context in this forum, so I should shut up.
You can provide as much context as you are asking your opponents for. It’s really NOT that difficult. for instance, you guys cite Romans 1 with abandon, while ignoring a few important contextual matters, most notably that all of Romans 1 (after the greeting) was a discussion of pagan worship service and the behavior there. there is a contextual difference in condemning a thing done while worshiping a pagan god and condemning that same action in any context.
Or, for another example – those who cite S&G while completely ignoring the issue of rape in that story, or the fact that two other passages specifically reference “the sin of Sodom” without referencing homosexuality in even the most tangential way.
See? How hard was that?
And regarding the character reference, I provided one, that was fully sourced to a notable author. You have provided many that are “Internet Specials”.
Wait what? you cited a reference that is not linked to any source, which one assumes you drew from wikipedia….which, um, in case you hadn’t noticed is an internet source, and one which has been challenged on accuracy on occasion.
Here’s a tip for you – google any sentence out of the passage I quoted and you will get the site it came from.
but I’m aware of your intent – if the source is not one which is hostile to transsexuals, then you simply claim it’s biased and can’t be trusted.
But of course Tom Wolfe can. Because, ya know, he wrote a book.
Assertions are either founded or unfounded. To this point you haven’t supported your assertion with references. It’s your move.
Heh. There’s no time to go back through this thread and quote all your unsupported assertions.
More to the point, EVERY post by pastor roy is an unsupported assertion which, strangely, you seem to have no objection to.
further, Robert is drowning you in support for his assertions and you dismiss them with shameless glee – so why should I bang my head against the wall to provide citations when you scorn his in-depth information?
I’ll not dance to that tune, I think.
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By me, earlier: “Particularly the bit underlined.”
I see that the code for the underlining didn’t come through, so let me repeat the verse i had in mind:
” 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,/b>, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
the whole “you can’t be saved and be gay” narrative doesn’t jive with that verse.
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Robert K –
I wrote in 181 You were bluffing when you tried to make it sound in 125 like there is no clustering of Gender Identity Disorder diagnoses in children. Based on the over-medication of children for ADHD, it would be shocking if there wasn’t geographic and other clustering.
You “responded” in 194 with an example of a transsexual in China and some more in India. Then you insulted me some more for pressing this issue.
That Dodge drives pretty nicely, doesn’t it?
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From Genesis through Revelation marriage is between one man and one woman. Any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. So the song and dance of TammyBeth of well these passages were wrongly translated. (Which her view is not backed by Biblical Scholars. Her view backed up by Liberal Scholars and Churches that do not believe God’s Word is true). Is just that a song and dance.
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In any case, I’m saved by grace myself, by his gift, and yet you and i disagree on the question of whether or not these things are sexual sins. what now?
—
If you say you are saved by Grace but reject God’s Word, then by which grace are you saved? We do not get to choice which sins are wrong and which sins are ok with God. The Word of God is the Standard by which God desires us to live by.
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Genesis 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
There is no passages in God’s Word showing that He is ok and supports the GLBT Community, But there are passages showing He is not ok with such relationship. But lets not let the Word of God get in the way of what society says is right.
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Actually, we are all oriented to all the sin in any list in the Bible. And I would hope that you are not suggesting that anything more than a very small percentage of homosexual behavior is attributable to brain mal-formation. God expects and provides for self-discipline in all our sin-temptations, I see no Biblical reason that homosexual temptations would be any different.
Additionally, we all know how readily we seek to justify our favorite sins with all manner of excuse and camaraderie. While I do recognize that there are rare instances of actual physiological mal-formations for which the individual is not accountable and for which the individual ought to seek medical treatment, those few instances can not be used to excuse, justify, and normalize sexual immorality.
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So what is happen now is we are being told by the GLBT Community and their supporters that those passages showing God is not ok with the GLBT Community. Are wrongly translated.
How do they do this?
First they take the Greek word and break it down to its basic translation. Then they look out sides sources other then God’s Word to see how other use that basic word. When they find what they are look for then they take that back to God’s Word and apply it to the Word of God.
That is why they can say know after all these years. The Paul did not call it a sin, but it is how WE have translated it over the years. But Know we are enlighten and we know can correctly translated.
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Second, what happens when that does not work. They then takes other passages of God’s Word that deals nothing with sexual sins. An try to present it as saying because of these passages God is ok with the GLBT Community and their relationships.
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Neil,
I have knew people who were never married and never had sex. In a meeting one talked about how she is 50 years old and never could find the right man to marry. She had many chances to sleep with someone. An her desire to sleep with them was very strong, but she knew if she would have surrender to those desire, she would be entering into sexual sin.
A question was asked how she over came the temptation. She told them her love for God and His Word gave her the strength to say no. She said was it hard yes, but her love for God help her to over come it.
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Reference Tammybeth 201 –
TWH – I hit you hard [in 184]
Tammybeth – Wait – so now we’ve descended to you bragging on the quality of your own posts? Classic.
No, that was a nod to Neil Evans admonition that we stay courteous.
Tammybeth – context matters. IF you want to properly understand and not just find what you went looking for.
Yes, context does matter, and in discussions of Paul’s affliction any reference to modern medicine is WILDLY out of context.
TWH – Well, you obviously didn’t understand that clearly
Tammybeth – why don’t you explain it then?
This was in reference to my challenge in 192 and before of your statement,
One of two things are true – either I belong to God, or i don’t. if I don’t, he has no real interest in my sin stopping …
I responded by saying that the entire Bible refutes your statement. Your response to that was:
Let me be sure I understand you correctly – it is your contention that the context of the entire Bible demonstrates that God wants his followers to stop those who do not follow him from sinning. right?
Well no, that’s not right. The only and entire point is that God hates sin. This is a truth that is reinforced so often in Scripture that it would be superfluous to pull out a reference verse (and I would, of course be accused of “prooftexting”). To say that “he has no real interest in my sin stopping” (whether or not we “belong to God”) is the kind of statement that normally comes from people who have little or no exposure to Scripture. It is an amazing statement by someone who in #91 identified as once being a “licensed Southern Baptist minister”.
Here’s a tip for you – google any sentence out of the passage I quoted and you will get the site it came from.
I had done that before my response. The sites you pulled those “quotes” from provided no references for the source of the quotes. Wikipedia provides the source of my quote, and I stated that – the foreword of Tom Wolfe’s book.
TWH – Assertions are either founded or unfounded. To this point you haven’t supported your assertion with references. It’s your move.
Tammybeth – Heh. There’s no time to go back through this thread and quote all your unsupported assertions.
More to the point, EVERY post by pastor roy is an unsupported assertion which, strangely, you seem to have no objection to.
further, Robert is drowning you in support for his assertions and you dismiss them with shameless glee – so why should I bang my head against the wall to provide citations when you scorn his in-depth information?
I’ll not dance to that tune, I think.
Well, this might be your most interesting response yet. Basically, you said, “Pastor Roy makes a lot of unsupported assertions and you probably do too, and I don’t like the way you respond to Robert K, so nobody should expect ME to back up MY assertions”!
I made this statement based on your response to Tammy clear back in #33
this is NOT “societal and environmental” – this is a medical condition. There is no “environmental” accounting for it that explains even a plurality of cases, let alone all of them.
That is a strong statement, and very pertinent to the discussion. If you feel you can make such a statement so positively, you surely must have some facts to back it up. Otherwise, it is quite easy to add disclaimers such as “In my study of the subject”, or “Based on my experience and observations”.
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Just a not to myself – some interesting thoughts I’d like to respond to in #207, but I’ve no time to spare tonight. Just want to be sure I pick up there tomorrow.
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Actually, we are all oriented to all the sin in any list in the Bible.
Agreed. But it would be a radical assertion to claim that is hardwired physically into our bodies as opposed to a spiritual reality. not saying it’s untrue, but it would be a difficult if not impossible premise to examine scientifically.
And I would hope that you are not suggesting that anything more than a very small percentage of homosexual behavior is attributable to brain mal-formation.
I’m not suggesting ALL of it is, because i do agree that in SOME cases environmental factors – primarily childhood sexual abuse – play a role. but let’s remember that homosexuality occurs in something less than 3% of the population in the first place, if the claim is that 2/3 of those cases are innate from birth, you are still talking about a really small fraction of all persons. i don’t think it’s unrealistic to assert up to 2% of the population might be affected by a relatively common birth defect.
God expects and provides for self-discipline in all our sin-temptations, I see no Biblical reason that homosexual temptations would be any different.
Well, again, you start from the premise that the bible holds indisputably that homosexuality is by definition sinful, which is a point I do not concede. At bare minimum it is a disputable point and not a certain one.
That aside, one may exercise self discipline to refrain from doing virtually anything which is not essential for the body to continue functioning. But the question would be – WHY is this a thing which needs to be refrained from? and defaulting to “Because God said so” is circular reasoning. I don’t believe the author of Scripture is a God who expects blind and unreasoning obedience to a set of rules. If something is presumed against god’s will, it’s not unreasonable to ask “Why?”
I’ve not seen a rational argument why homosexuality as a result of an inborn condition would be something that God forbids. you cannot, IMO, argue in good faith “because marriage is a portrait of Christ and the church” because if that were iron-clad, there could never be any Biblical divorce. Nor would many hetero marriages be “godly” (for instance, is a marriage between a drunken man who beats his wife and a cowering victim a portrait of Christ’s relationship to the church?)
What other biblical reasons are there that would explain why God would forbid it?
Additionally, we all know how readily we seek to justify our favorite sins with all manner of excuse and camaraderie.
Indeed. and as i have asked before – while being completely ignored by those who disagree with me – how is that truth any LESS applicable to our human tendency to look down on and cast judgement on those who are different from us? How does that tendency to justify our own failings NOT also mean we tend to justify our bigotry and bias by saying “God said it not me”?
While I do recognize that there are rare instances of actual physiological mal-formations for which the individual is not accountable and for which the individual ought to seek medical treatment,
Surely you realize there is no medical treatment for being gay?
those few instances can not be used to excuse, justify, and normalize sexual immorality.
I do not propose that innate homosexuality justifies, for instance, the drunken frat party where heterosexual males “experiment” with it (just to pull out a theoretical) or some such, and that’s not what this discussion is about.
but the reality is other than pretty rare exceptional events like that, the overwhelming majority of legitimately heterosexual individuals are not just resistant to a homosexual act (except under extreme duress such as prison) but outright repulsed by it. The mythology that heterosexuals freely choose to carry on homosexual “lifestyles” because they are just kinky or whatever is ludicrous on the face of it and such claims only serve to (purposely IMO) obscure the real issues.
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First they take the Greek word and break it down to its basic translation. Then they look out sides sources other then God’s Word to see how other use that basic word. When they find what they are look for then they take that back to God’s Word and apply it to the Word of God.
so wait – you object to a basic fundamental principle of exegesis? One that’s used by EVERY biblical translator who’s ever opened the Book?
Are you sure you’re a pastor?
Here’s a nugget for you that you must not have heard – one of the words usually translated to refer to homosexuality is a word that Paul himself apparently coined, as it’s not been found in any pre-existing document. such a word is ripe for misunderstanding on the face of it. there are real, valid, and reasonable objections to the traditional translation of every other New Testament word translated homosexual, effeminate, etc.
you sir are not defending the word of god, else you would applaud every effort to properly understand it wherever that might lead. Rather, you are a strident defender of the traditions of men. Our Lord had ought to say about that practice.
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The only and entire point is that God hates sin. This is a truth that is reinforced so often in Scripture that it would be superfluous to pull out a reference verse
Well, frankly, if you actually think that’s god’s main message in the bible, it certainly explains your theology. but it also means we have no common frame of reference to discuss it. We might as well be reading entirely different books.
It is highly revealing, though, to hear someone state flat out that their fundamental conception of God begins with “God hates…”
it explains much.
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TWH – I responded
These crazy assertions, surprising how often I’m right about them (it’s because I’m critical of my own opinions – your questions are ones I’ve asked and answered for myself)
This ongoing hatred of transsexuals, a group of people who can’t help it and have enough garbage to deal with in their lives without adding bigotry, is frankly reprehensible. Go preach about the horrors of drunkenness (a sin condemned in the same passages that you quoted as condemning transsexuals) in college frat houses. Those jerks could use the attention.
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Tammybeth 215 – What a slander you have left for me to read on Christmas Eve morning. I will defend myself from this rubbish only because others may still be reading.
I can see that I hit a nerve when I challenged you on your statement in 149 – One of two things are true – either I belong to God, or i don’t. if I don’t, he has no real interest in my sin stopping …
I responded in 160 – Southern Baptist? Really? Sleeping through every single class! My reference to refute this statement is the entire Bible.
Your surprising response in 184 was – Let me be sure I understand you correctly – it is your contention that the context of the entire Bible demonstrates that God wants his followers to stop those who do not follow him from sinning. right?
I then responded in 211 – Well no, that’s not right. The only and entire point is that God hates sin. This is a truth that is reinforced so often in Scripture that it would be superfluous to pull out a reference verse (and I would, of course be accused of “prooftexting”). To say that “he has no real interest in my sin stopping” (whether or not we “belong to God”) is the kind of statement that normally comes from people who have little or no exposure to Scripture. It is an amazing statement by someone who in #91 identified as once being a “licensed Southern Baptist minister”.
And now, in 215 you pulled a fragment of my response out of context and wrote – Well, frankly, if you actually think that’s god’s main message in the bible, it certainly explains your theology. but it also means we have no common frame of reference to discuss it.
Merry Christmas
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Robert K – I wish you a new Dodge for Christmas. You need it.
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In this debate about homosexuality many of us Christians sound like the Pharisee (Luke 18) who prayed: “God thank you that I am not like that sinner over there.” That impression certainly lessens our credibility. So, it must be repeatedly said that our sins of “sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these” (Galatians 5) are condemned throughout the Bible, yet we tend to ignore our personal guilt and focus on the guilt we see in other people.
There are undoubtedly a variety of reasons why homosexual sin is the focus of condemnation by the Bible believing community at this time in our history. We can assume that the focus of criticism will swing to some other sin in the not too distant future.
It has been claimed, with reasonable argument, that there are some individuals with physiological birth defects that affect their sexual nature. It is reasonable to conclude that medical repair and subsequent repair would not be sinful. Also, it is understandable that the whole condition and process would be a great challenge to the individual and that it would be easily misunderstood by the general public.
It has been claimed that these sexual birth defects (primarily of brain function) are the cause of much of the homosexual orientation in the population. I wonder how it would be received by the “gay community” if they were given the opportunity to proclaim that their homosexuality was a birth defect? I think their response is quite predictable.
In conclusion, I believe there are individuals with physiological birth defects which affect their sexual identity. I believe that neither the medical treatment nor subsequent normal behavior is sin. However, I believe that, in the Bible, homosexual behavior is described as sin along with all other behaviors that fall short of the Glory of God.
And finally, I believe we all deceive ourselves regarding the lengths we are willing and able to go in justifying our sin to ourselves and others.
May all of us who claim to be followers of Christ work to be genuinely transformed by the Spirit and Word of God as we apply passages such as Colossians 3 to our everyday lives.
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Well said Neil. I do think your supposition that many homosexuals (and some transsexuals) would dispute the assertion that these thing result from a “birth defect” but that’s mostly because they resent the implication that they are “defective” – it’s an unfortunate term which, really, we ought not apply to anyone. i simply use it here because it is the common parlance.
there really ought to be a less pejorative term for a “non-standard” birth condition (as in people using “disabled” instead of “handicapped”) but I’m not sure what it would be and if i came up with one, I’d still have to explain what i meant by it every time I used to because the term “birth defect” is so pervasive.
In the spirit of your thoughtful reflection about how Christians ought interact, I offer a passage which I often cite in these discussions but never really gets proper attention.
Romans 14
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but [b]not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.[/b] 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, [b]for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.[/b]
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. [b]Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.[/b] 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 [b]But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.[/b] 11 For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 [b]Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.[/b] 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 [b]So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.[/b] 20 [b]Do not tear down the work of God[/b] for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
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I think surely the same applies to who we love as to what we eat.
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ro-doing this because i got the code wrong:
Romans 14
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
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I think surely the same applies to who we love as to what we eat.
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TammyBeth, while it may apply to who we love, it surely does not apply to who we have sex with. I think you are misunderstanding my seeking to understand actual physiological reasons for medically treating sexual maladies. I continue to believe that the vast majority of homosexual behaviors are simply sexual immoralities coming from the same old nature as all other sin.
The mantra that I hear coming from the gay community is that being gay is not a choice but simply an alternative natural way that God has wired some people. As I have understood your statements and the research that has been presented the physiology is not merely alternative and natural but unnatural and in fact malformed. That conclusion would not be welcome to gays no matter what words were used to describe it.
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TWH – you seem to have no real interest in discussing anything. What I want is to talk. What you want is to “win.”
Im not interested in the game of snide comments and insults until someone “loses.”. Maybe someday you will feel the same.
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TammyBeth, while it may apply to who we love, it surely does not apply to who we have sex with.
It would be a mistake to buy into the myth that most homosexuals are simply defined by having lots of same-gender sex. MOST homosexuals are simply people who develop romantic affection for people of the same gender. That people who have romantic attachments often have sex is the unremarkable outcome just like with heteros.
YES, there are promiscuous homosexuals who have a lot of casual meaningless sex – as there are a lot of heterosexuals who do the same thing.
THAT (promiscuous meaningless sex) IS a behavioral choice and one that Scripture frowns upon. but not because of the makeup of the partners but because of the context of the sex.
But the incidence of such behavior is no higher among homosexuals than among heterosexuals (and considerably lower among transsexuals for reasons beyond their control)
I continue to maintain that God as I understand him is not inclined to say “yes sir, you are in love with the man you have been dating but I forbid you to ever have sex with him, even if you are together for the rest of your lives”
I see no rational reason for that to be true.
More to the point of my original quote though – even if some do see a rational whereby that might be God’s opinion, there is CERTAINLY plenty of room for respectful disagreement. Disagreements which would fall well within the context of that passage.
that (respectful disagreement) is virtually never displayed by the highly conservative Christian. Rather, what we get is flame-throwing on full blast. Like Roy repeated assertions that because I disagree, I must be a liberal who’s rejected or twisted God’s world.
I think “I respectfully disagree and here’s why…” is a MUCH more godly response then “you stupid liberals have clearly decided to spit on God’s word since it is indisputable that i’m right” will ever be.
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Tammy Beth, I was NOT saying that promiscuity is the sin of homosexuality. Any miss of God’s character of perfect righteousness is sin. One lie makes us a liar, one lustful glance makes us an adulterer. And on the flip side there is no amount of obedience that can make us righteous in God’s eyes. We all stand helplessly empty handed when it comes to earning God’s favor. This is the whole meaning of Christmas and Easter as you well know. Remember too that the meaning of Christmas and Easter is not rationally discerned, even though when understood it is indeed rational.
Concerning the Christian response to the Gay Movement (for lack of a better term), it is indeed often cruel and judgmental. You are correct to identify and personally feel a harsh and unloving response from many Christians. But I think you must also recognize that gays are often uniquely “in your face” toward Christianity. But that certainly does not justify an unloving response from us.
I trust than from our brief conversation you can no longer say that “no highly conservative Christian has ever treated me with respect.”
Borrowing from Robert K’s comment about sensing our interest “only in winning,” I will readily admit that I love to win an argument. But my true desire is that God win. And I certainly do not want to simply put down gay people.
I hope you have a pleasant Christmas day focusing on God’s Matchless love for sinners like you and I.
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Lets be clear any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. The Word of God is clear marriage is between one man and one woman only. So yes tammybeth, homosexuality sexual relationship is sin. The reason is takes place out side of marriage.
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Like Roy repeated assertions that because I disagree, I must be a liberal who’s rejected or twisted God’s world.
I think “I respectfully disagree and here’s why…” is a MUCH more godly response then “you stupid liberals have clearly decided to spit on God’s word since it is indisputable that i’m right” will ever be.
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When you claim to be a christian but openly promote false teaching that traps people in sin. Then yes, you are rejecting or twisted God Word.
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Lets be clear any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. The Word of God is clear marriage is between one man and one woman only. So yes tammybeth, homosexuality sexual relationship is sin. The reason is takes place out side of marriage.
So, if a church who’s theology approves of same sex marriage preforms such a ceremony, THOSE gay people are not sinning when they have sex?
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So, if a church who’s theology approves of same sex marriage preforms such a ceremony, THOSE gay people are not sinning when they have sex?
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Wrong, they are sinning, because such church that are approves of same sex marriage are going against God’s Word.
This is your problem… You believe man can change God’s Standard to meet the needs of the people,…
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that’s the answer I expected.
YOUR interpretation of Scripture is the only authoritative one in the world. All other theology must be measured by yours.
I’ll just let the massive narcissism of that position stand without further comment.
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YOUR interpretation of Scripture is the only authoritative one in the world. All other theology must be measured by yours.
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No, it is not my interpretation of Scripture.. It is what it states, you again have failed time and time again to provide any passages from God’s Word showing that God is ok with homosexuality sexual relationship or He is ok with same sex marraige.
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TammyBeth, your understand of God’s Word is based on false teaching. YOu reject, that God’s Standard for marriage is between one man and one woman only. You reject it because it does not fit your world view.
You reject that any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. You reject it because it does not fit your world view.
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In order to prove that God’s ok with homosexuality and its sexual relationship. You must destroy the Biblical understand of Marriage. The reason the Biblical understand of Marriage is between one man and one woman. That any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. Thur out The Word of God this idea is supported.
There is nothing in God’s Word to support the view that God is ok with homosexuality and its sexual relationship.
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All other theology must be measured by yours.
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They must be measure by God’s Word.
The theologians that are promoting the homosexuality and its sexual relationship are not Christian Theologians. Their views are not supported by God’s Word and also CHurch History and Christian Theologians past and present.
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The Chruches that are supporting homosexuality and its sexual relationship have been losing memebers left and right. They are not able to get their programs or books on Christian Radio or Christian TV Stations and Christian book stores…
The reason these churches are no longer being view as part of the Christian Community.
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I know it is hard for you to understand this TammyBeth, but what I am saying is the truth.
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They must be measure by God’s Word.
The theologians that are promoting the homosexuality and its sexual relationship are not Christian Theologians. Their views are not supported by God’s Word and also CHurch History and Christian Theologians past and present.
I’ve presented this challenge before and been ignored, I’ll try once more.
your first sentence above carries no weight at all UNLESS you begin with the premise that God’s word says one specific thing that is patently obvious and all sincere students of the word can agree on the plain meaning.
I submit for your consideration that on the doctrine of baptism, there is great disagreement in the church. Some believe in sprinkling, some in pouring, some in dunking; Some believe it is part of the means of salvation, others do not; some believe it shold be administered to infants, others do not.
yet all these people are sincere students of the same bible. if there is no room for varying interpretations of the Bible by sincere, well meaning Christians of good scholarship, how can this be true?
the same can be said for the nature of Salvation, the person of Christ, the practice of prayer, the conduct of worship, and a host of other central doctrines of the faith.
IF there is but ONE obvious understanding of Scripture – how can these things be?
contrawise, IF it is in fact possible for two or more Christians of sound scholarship and sincere intent to read the same passage and come away with two (or more) different plausible understandings of the passage, then how can your statement “they must be measured by God’s Word” be meaningful?
just because you CLAIM that in YOUR OPINION those with a differing view are either poor scholars or acting with malice does not by itself provide evidence of your assertion. I might as well be saying that in my view your feet stink for all the good it does this conversation.
The objective reality is that sincere and well studies Christian Scholars DO differ about the Bible’s view of homosexuality just as they differ about the Bible’s view of baptism.
that might piss you off, and you may wish to react by putting your head in the sand, but it’s still true. it’s also true that not a few of these scholars once held your view and upon intensive study changed their view. i don’t think you will find ANY scholar who once held a permissive theology on the subject and then after intense study changed to a “homosexuality is sin” position.
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The objective reality is that sincere and well studies Christian Scholars DO differ about the Bible’s view of homosexuality just as they differ about the Bible’s view of baptism.
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Those who cliam to be a Christian but reject God’s Word views homosexuality is ok. The Christian Church is unitied in their view on homosexuality. It is called a sexual sin.
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that might piss you off, and you may wish to react by putting your head in the sand, but it’s still true. it’s also true that not a few of these scholars once held your view and upon intensive study changed their view. i don’t think you will find ANY scholar who once held a permissive theology on the subject and then after intense study changed to a “homosexuality is sin” position.
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The answer to that comment is easy. The Word of God is clear in the end days man will reject sound doctrime. This is what has happen to those poor souls that have reject God’s word to support sexual sin.
but again you have fail to present any passages from God’s WOrd showing that same sex marriage is ok with God. When I have shown time and time again the Word of God is clear marriage is between one man and one woman.
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God has not chagned His standard on marriage even if you desire Him to do so. Oh, by the way all the love passages you love to post have nothing to do with God’ Standard on Marriage.
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From Genesis to the 10 Commandment, to Paul’s written about marriage. They are all clear about marriage one man and one woman only. As long as this is the standard for marriage for a Christian, your argument about “homosexuality ” holds no water. You can promote your view all day long, it is not backed up by God’s Word.
When you throw out the old card that is your interruption… That is just a sign of someone who has no true relationship with God and His Word. The person who does that, desire to change the Word of God to fit their world view and life style.
Unless you have a passage of scripture that clearly shows God’s Standard of marriage is not between one man and one woman. That God is ok with same sex marriage by using His Word. We have nothing to debate.
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TammyBeth,
You are obviously correct to point out that there are many different interpretations of Biblical passages and doctrines. The challenge we each face is not so much to determine which view we side with but to determine what God is actually saying. God is not saying both water baptism saves us. and does not save us. But it is a pretty important issue and each of us must come to a conclusion what we believe God is really saying. It could be a tragic mistake to come down on the wrong side of the question. Likewise, God is not saying both homosexual behavior is sin and homosexual behavior is not sin. In the final analysis it doesn’t really matter what any of us say, but it matters greatly what God says. We each may choose what we believe God is saying but our believing doesn’t change God in the slightest. We stand before a God Who is Who He IS not who we imagine Him to be. This truth makes it essential that we each make every effort to accurately understand God’s Word as it is, not as we wish it might be.
I am curious how you deal with Romans 1:26,27. If God is not describing homosexual behaviors what is he describing? It seems clear that some sort of behavior is being described as dishonorable passions, contrary to nature, shameful acts, and error.
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Neil Evans – Those who believe the way Tammybeth believes views Romans 1:26,27. In 2 ways. First Paul was address a religious services based on
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
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Second Romans 1:26,27 is not address the sexual relationship between 2 loving people. Who are in love.
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Oh, also they beleive the greek word for homosexual is refer to Homosexual prostitution going on in the temples.
That is how they get around those versus.
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At this point I’m not interested in what “they” say; I want to hear how TammyBeth views this passage.
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Neil Evans – I did not mean to offean you.
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ok, I’m going to start fresh with Neil, but at this point I see that Roy has no interest in any discussion at all – his interest is in declarative statements. i ask a very specific questions about theological disagreements not related to homosexuality and he replied EIGHT times since without addressing the point in any way.
i’m forced to conclude, Roy, that your only objective here is to stamp your feet and say “I’m right! period!” so I’ll leave you to that and wish you well with it.
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Neil, any discussions of Romans 1 26-27 must, to be done properly, be considered in the whole context of the book of Romans and particularly in the context of the first two chapters.
as with any attempt to exegete the Bible, viewing verses in isolation is a recipe for disaster.
First of all, you have to look at the overall culture they lived in. from the days of Abraham and before, same-gender sex even by normally heterosexual people was not uncommon (It might be equated somewhat to prison homosexuality). It was practiced as a matter of course in pagan worship ceremonies (related to fertility gods in many but not all cases), it was practiced by conquering armies upon the losers, it was practiced as a specific act of humiliation when one wished to humble an opponent (such as a conquered ruler)
The idea in the latter cases was to debase a man (within the culture) by forcing him to assume the role of a woman (since women got exactly zero respect in such cultures).
In a more specific cultural context, Paul was writing to a city filled with pagan worship. Gentile converts in the city would have been steeped in the culture associated with pagan worship. that’s the only world they knew. you might consider it similar to trying to explain Christianity to a young Muslim raised in Mecca. only more so because they didn’t have the widespread propagation of information we have now.
for immediate historical context, Paul was writing to the gentile converts remaining in Rome after Claudius had expelled all Jews (including Jewish Christians) so even more specifically, he’s dealing with people who have next to no biblical (OT) knowledge and no on-site mentors to speak of.
All that serves as background for the book. It’s commonly understood that the first 17 verses are simply greeting and not directly bearing on the context of what comes after. The immediate context of the verses in question start with verse 18
(I will break here for length because I’ve forgotten exactly what the character limit is – please wait and reply to the whole)
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provided for easy reference is the passage in question, bolded with comments unbolded:
[NASB]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
One thing that is evident right off is that Paul is speaking here of people who HAVE known God and now are disobedient. this is not a reference to “those sinners out there” but rather people within the community of faith. Now, either these people are heterosexuals, which has important relevance for the rest of the chapter, or they are homosexuals – which begs the question “how is it Paul does not remark upon homosexuals having been allowed into the conversation?”
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
This cannot possibly be a reference to anything other than pagan temple worship, wherein one would find idols made in the image of “corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.”
This provides critical context for what comes next, because it lays the foundation that Paul is speaking of those who have known the one true God and have returned to the worship of pagan deities. The precise theological conclusions which are described with “professing to be wise” is not stated here, but apparently they had some ideas about reconciling Christian worship and pagan worship.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
this conforms that the primary, overwhelmingly obvious, offense being addressed in this chapter is worship of false gods. whatever else may be said of this chapter, I submit that it is indisputable that whatever he is condemning he is condemning within the context of pagan worship. it makes no sense to include the above verse otherwise.
By the way, this is as good an illustration as their is in scripture of “the unforgivable sin” – what could more likely be blasphemy of the holy spirit than to have known Christ and then turned away to worship another? This is consistent with the idea of god “giving them up” because otherwise, throughout all of Scripture, we see a God willing to go the last mile to reach the lost and never giving them up
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Now we get to the juicy parts. Consider this – Paul was a Jewish Pharisee, soaked through and through with the Jewish worldview. this verse is commonly understood as “women having sex with women” in the traditional theologies, but in point of fact, there are quite a few things that Paul would have considered “unnatural” for a woman to do with her body. Oral sex, anal sex, sex during menstruation, and self gratification would all qualify. (As well as bestiality and other such like that are still considered unnatural)
The King James translates “degrading passions” as “vile affections” – the Greek word translated “vile” is “atimai”,/i> which means infamy, indignity, dishonor, reproach and shame but it is a subjective word. That is, what is dishonorable is culturally dependent. what was dishonorable for a Jew might not be for a Greek and vice versa.
Just as today it would be considered dishonorable for a Saudi woman to wear a bikini to the beach, but not necessarily so for an American woman.
So these unnatural acts, same gender or otherwise, were in the eyes of Paul dishonorable (i.e. “vile”) behavior.
and lets pause to note also that “not natural” does not necessarily mean sinful. How do we know this? Because the exact same Greek words are used to describe God’s “grafting in” of Gentile branches on the Jewish vie. if the word describes an act of God it CANNOT mean sinful acts by definition.
Overall point on this verse, is that nothing in the language confines the condemnation specifically to same gender activities. IF you want to take your stand that Romans 1:26 forbids certain behavior as always sinful, the only possible conclusion is that anything Paul would have considered “unnatural” is also declared sin. I know many Christians DO consider oral and anal sex to be sin, but not nearly so many as those who don’t.
It’s important to note at this point that the plain meaning of the words to this point describe not homosexuals but heterosexuals.
It says they “exchanged their natural function” for something else. This implies they HAD been heterosexuals (which is also consistent with the idea that they HAD been believers in God) and had chosen to do something different.
Once you recognize that the vast majority of homosexuals were born homosexuals, this verse takes on a quite different meaning. Christians like to assume that homosexuals simply decided at some point to be gay, despite the fact that there’s not one scrap of credible evidence for that claim. Certainly there’s no Biblical support for it.
That’s not to say that there are no heterosexuals who decide for whatever reason (isolation, drunkenness, whatever) to engage in a homosexual act – and I DO believe that such is sinful according to this passage. Clearly these verse as I understand them would be nonsense of no one ever made such a choice.
if we wish to read Romans 1 and conclude that god condemns heterosexuals who choose to commit homosexual acts, I’m very sympathetic to that reading.
(albeit there is still the false worship context)
But a born homosexual who never had any interest, romantic or sexual, in the opposite gender is NOT one who has exchanged what is natural for what is unnatural, because for them, the same gender attraction IS natural.
(break for length)
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27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Admittedly, this is the most difficult passage in the Bible to reconcile if one believes the Bible does not condemn homosexuality (in fact, it is the only verse in the entire New Testament which specifically makes reference to the act of same gender sexual activity (other verse are more indirect and use words which have other logical interpretations and have been poorly translated)
First we should keep in mind, in re the previous post, that these people committed these acts AFTER god “gave them up” – so he did not give them up because of their sexual activity, rather – obviously – he gave them up because they turned back from the knowledge of Christ to idol worship and THEN god gave them up and THEN, AFTER that they engaged in unnatural sexual activity.
There is not, to this point, ANY descriptions of unnatural sexual activity in the context of it being practiced by a believer, or even an unbeliever, but only by those whom god has “given up”
So the context to this point is much more “this is the “vile” way that those who have been given up behave” rather than “this is the sort of behavior that gets you given up”
Now, another valid point as we look at v. 27 is the Greek translated for “natural function” (or “natural use” in the KJV) which is “phusikos chr?sis“ which is used by Paul elsewhere in reference to things like the length of a man’s hair (by the way, he also uses that word above translated “vile” for a man who has long hair) so when Paul refers to natural and unnatural here, when it’s understood in the context of how he uses it elsewhere in his writings, it’s clear that cultural subjectivity applies. Or else we have to argue that Guy Penrod is just as sinful as any gay man.
Now, building line upon line and precept upon precept, we have:
1. people who once knew God and…
2. had turned away from god and returned to idol worship which…
3. involved the worship of false gods which…
4. is the unforgivable sin and which caused God to “give them up” (which happens for no other reason)and thereafter…
5. they engaged in what Paul (and possibly his audience) considered to be “unnatural” sexual activities which…
6. they had left off “natural” sexual activities to do, and which was a common feature of such worship which was…
7. NOT ever in any sense relationship sexuality (which god approves and calls on believers to practice exclusively within marriage) nor was it even recreational sex but was very specifically sex is an act of pagan worship.
It is a WILD leap of supposition that because God condemns a same sex act within the context of worshiping a pagan God, he therefore condemns ALL same sex activities at every time and place in human history. if one wears jewelry as an act of worshiping a pagan God, does that therefore mean that all jewelry ever anywhere is also sin?
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Now, the coda for this particular passage and it further illustrates the overall point (so far) – this is what people whom god has given up act like” (NOT (this is how you act to make God give you up). He includes in this description behaviors which Christians do not express remotely as much outrage (gossip, for instance, or “unloving”) and either Christians are mishandling Scripture when they are not JUST as strict on the gossip as on the homosexual, or they recognize that the chapter is not saying that the act of gossiping causes god to “give us up.”
While I acknowledge that people of sincere scholarship and good will can and do disagree on this reading, it IS a logical, reasonable, exegetically sound interpretation of the passage which concludes that
(a) the homosexual acts are committed by heterosexuals
(b) they are committed by people whom the holy spirit had “given up” because of pagan worship; and
(c) the acts are happening specifically in the context of that worship and not in the context of loving committed relationships.
It is a perfectly credible reading which does not in any way deny the authority of Scripture.
it is true, as roy constantly repeats, that the bible nowehre specifically affirms the practice of same sex marriage, but arguments from silence are invalid. the Bible nowhere condones the act of asking the secular government to license your marriage, and yet Christians do so routinely; the bible nowhere condones the practice of instrumental music in worship services (just ask the Church of Christ!) and yet the vast majority of Christian churches practice that; the bible nowhere condones the use of birth control, and yet virtually all non-Catholic christian churches are fine with it.
So Roy’s point, while true, is meaningless. Even in our much more accepting culture, we can identify only about 3% of the population which is gay, and likely far from all of those have any interest in being married. The Bible was written in the midst of a culture in which virtually no one would confess to being in love with a person of the same sex, no matter how they felt. Such people most likely just stayed single, or exercised a death wish (in a world where few people lived to old age in any case) and exercised whatever sexual activity was available “on the down low” if any.
Which is to say that when Jesus spoke of marriage, or Paul or anyone else, they would OF COURSE address it in the context the 99+% of the people who would hear his remarks. There is no rational and logical reason to say “if on the off chance that 1 in 100 of you has some same sex desire, let me also say….”
Nothing else in Scripture reads that way.
finally, it’s worth noting that Romans 1 exists within the context of a whole book that is overwhelmingly about GRACE. the very first verse of Romans 2 sets the stage. What seems to be at work here is a common hermenutical tactic often used by preachers (I’ve done it myself many times): you set the audience up with a rah-rah opening which has them looking outward at “those sinners out there” and then you pull out the mirror and say “lets talk about US”
There’s not space her to elaborate on the whole book of Romans, but if you understand the literary technique employed, you can see that pretty much the whole rest of the book Paul is saying “don’t look at THEM, look at YOURSELF!” and recognize that if salvation comes from how you ACT we are all condemned.
“for by GRACE are you saved, through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should BOAST”
Gotta tell you, this whole string of replies, particularly on the point of Roy and one or two more, read like nothing so much as a direct contradiction of the entire teaching of the Book of Romans – believers boasting of how righteous their judgement is and pronouncing their conclusion of how wicked anyone is who is Gay or who does not join in their condemnation of gays. it all comes off as very much works based.
But I don’t want to be misunderstood – IF the Bible teaches that homosexual acts are always sin (and I do not believe that it does), it certainly does not teach that they are worse sin than things like gossiping; if it does not, then the failure of those who condemn them, in the context of the Book of Romans, is even worse for they are violating the teachings of that Book to judge where God has not judged.
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so, the jumping off point from here is – YES God condemns sex outside a loving committed relationship (a marriage, in point of fact, though this gets into the definition of “marriage” in a culture in which one did not need the permission of the state to be married, nor, in many cases, even the affirmation of a minister) and he most certainly condemns ANY act which facilitates the worship of another “god”
He seems to take a dim view of homosexual acts committed by heterosexuals in that by definition such an act would take place outside of a committed relationship.
BUT
upon what Scriptural basis to we therefor assume that homosexual acts between homosexual individuals in a committed relationship (or, in some cases, actual real marriages anointed by a minister of God) are STILL sinful?
how do you get from the truth of one to the conclusion of the other?
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here’s some more for you to consider – cue the source bashing from Roy, but all this is either backed with solid scholarship, or you are invited to cite evidence the scholarship is incorrect.
Another verse commonly used against homosexuals, and one of the only passing (claimed) references to transsexualism in the NT is 1Corinthians 6:9 – here’s the KJV translation:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
the problem here is that the word translated (malakoi) “effeminate” is a shaky translation, which shifted several times before and since the KJV was published (everything from “weakling” to “male prostitute” and the word translated “abusers of themselves with mankind” (arsenokoites)is a word Paul coined himself, as far as we can tell, and first used here and only one other place in the Bible.
There is monstrous uncertainty about the proper use and meaning of the word but the best theory is that it’s derived from the Septuigent translation of a couple of verses in Leviticus which, you guessed it, refer to shrine prostitutes employed in pagan worship services.
there’s an extensive discussion of that here:
http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html
The elephant in the room for those who wish to condem gay and trans people based on this verse is this – there were as many as 17 other Greek words Paul might have used to make this verse crystal clear – 2 which would have readily been understood to refer to what we know as trans people and 15 others which in some way describe homosexuality.
See the list here:
http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html
WHY did the Holy Spirit not lead Paul to use the clearer words IF all that was intended to be communicated was “homosexuals”?
In point of fact, neither word is ever used elsewhere to refer to cross-gender behavior, or to homosexual acts outside the clear context of pagan worship and prostitution.
Now, rather than be arrogant enough to suggest this PROVES the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, I will say again what I said before – it is overwhelmingly clear that it is not indisputable that the bible calls homosexuality sin.
the best and brightest new testament verse on the subject are DRIPPING with uncertainty as to the proper translation, and in at least this case uncertainty that Paul could easily have avoided. it is a perfectly rational conclusion to suggest that if Paul had MEANT to say “all homosexuals” he had ample and obvious opportunity to do so. which begs the question, “why didn’t he?”
It is not a denial of the authority of Scripture, nor a twisting of same, to say – at the very least – that “it is uncertain whether or not Paul meant to condemn all homosexuality, or only that carried out in the course of pagan worship and/or prostitution.”
Rather, it is an argument against the TRADITIONAL opinion of flawed and biased MEN.
And we both know what our Lord said about giving too much honor to “the traditions of men”
(and please, don’t waste our time with the dodge “that comes from a gay friendly site so it can’t be trusted” – if it’s wrong, PROVE it is wrong by citing conclusive evidence concerning the proper translation of the words in question. if it really is a twisting of Scripture, that shouldn’t be difficult for you to do)
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Like I said the rewriting of God’s Word to support sexual sin.
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(and please, don’t waste our time with the dodge “that comes from a gay friendly site so it can’t be trusted” – if it’s wrong, PROVE it is wrong by citing conclusive evidence concerning the proper translation of the words in question. if it really is a twisting of Scripture, that shouldn’t be difficult for you to do)
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Simply any sexual relationship out side of marraige is called a sexual sin… An marriage is clear in God’s Word. One man and one woman only.. Good try but until you show that marriage is not between one man and one woman only. It is still a sexual sin
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Simply any sexual relationship out side of marraige is called a sexual sin… An marriage is clear in God’s Word. One man and one woman only.. Good try but until you show that marriage is not between one man and one woman only. It is still a sexual sin
Arguments from silence prove nothing.it cannot logically be argued that because the bible does not specifically say “yes you may” that the activity is therefor sinful.
The Bible does not say “yes it’s okay to play football” but no one calls it sin.
More to the point, the Bible does not say “yes you may divorce your husband if he beats you” but few would call that sinful.
The Bible does not say “yes you may marry a person of another race” but very few Christians call that sin.
I’m sure you will quote the words of Christ which begin “have you not read…” in reference to the creation story, but that discussion was about divorce, not about the nature of who may marry and context matters.No one within the sound of his voice was wondering “hey, suppose it was two dudes wanted to marry?”
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TammyBeth same song and dance from you. When unable to prove your point, throw out different argunment to avoid the fact you are promoting sexual sin.
Marriage is clear in God’s Word, one man and one woman only. You have no passages supporting your views.
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There is no passage supporting the sinlessness of posting on the internet. I hearby declare that therefore your posts in this thread are sin.
Please quote a passage from scripture to refute my claim.
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Time and time again marriage is clear in GOd’s Word. It is between one man and one woman. You have no passages to support your arugment.
So yes, any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. That means homosexual relationship is called a sexual sin. You can try an spin it all day long. The Word of God is clear. Just because you have rejected, it does not mean it is not true.
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Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
That passages is clear.
Exodus 20:12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
That passage is clear.
We can go into the New Testaments also, where ever marriage is talked about it is between man and a woman. No where in God’s Word does it show that God is ok with same sex marriage. Now I understand why you must destroy marriage that is found in God’s Word.
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The Biblical Understand of Marriage is a threat to your view on homosexual relationship. So in order for your view that God is ok with homosexual relationship, Biblical Understanding of Marriage must be changed to include same sex marriage with out any Biblical Support or destroy.
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So yes, any sexual relationship out side of marriage is called a sexual sin. That means homosexual relationship is called a sexual sin. You can try an spin it all day long. The Word of God is clear. Just because you have rejected, it does not mean it is not true.
I already defeated this point.
there exists same sex marriages performed in a christian church by a christian minister using a christian Bible.
there exists same sex marriages recognized by the state (though that can’t possibly be your criteria) and some of these marriage meet both these descriptions.
it still remains for you to prove from Scripture that these are not valid marriages in the eyes of God and thus, sex between the individuals involved is still sinful. you have not accomplished this point.
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
That passages is clear.
This passage also describes a pre-fall state of affairs, which proves nothing. It also says “both were naked and were not ashamed. Do you advocate universal nudism based on this Scripture? or at least full time nudism when couples are alone together?
Exodus 20:12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
That passage is clear.
Yes, it’s clear everyone has a father and mother – what does that have to do with homoseuxality?
We can go into the New Testaments also, where ever marriage is talked about it is between man and a woman.
context matters pastor, you are a poor student of the Bible if you do not apply it.
No where in God’s Word does it show that God is ok with same sex marriage.
and no where does it positively assert that he’s not.
Now I understand why you must destroy marriage that is found in God’s Word.
Why?
The Biblical Understand of Marriage is a threat to your view on homosexual relationship. So in order for your view that God is ok with homosexual relationship, Biblical Understanding of Marriage must be changed to include same sex marriage with out any Biblical Support or destroy.
Circular logic.
Since i do not believe the Bible condemns all sexual acts, BY DEFINITION I would be unable to believe that god condemns same sex marriage. One naturally follows from the other since i know that God intended sex for marriage.
You really aren’t very good at critical thinking are you?
By the way – get off the internet! it’s sin! the bible doesn’t say you can so you must STOP IT!!!
Prove me wrong.
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Let see you have rejected the Word of God, You have rejected God’s Standard from Marriage, You rejected all passages addressing same sex relationship… Then you dare to say I am not good at critical thinking..
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Exodus 20:12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
That passage is clear.
Yes, it’s clear everyone has a father and mother – what does that have to do with homoseuxality?
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In same sex marraige their can not be a father and mother so Exodus 20:12 can not happen in same sex relationships.
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there exists same sex marriages performed in a christian church by a christian minister using a christian Bible.
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First, off they are not in Christian Church. The reason these Church have reject God’S Word, God’s Stanard of marriage to support sexal sin.
Second just because man promote same sex marriage does not mean it is ok in the eyes of God.
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it still remains for you to prove from Scripture that these are not valid marriages in the eyes of God and thus, sex between the individuals involved is still sinful. you have not accomplished this point.
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I have given you God’s Standard of marriage but you have reject it. There is nothing You will excpet, that is mention in the Word of God that shows your view as being wrong.
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Pastor Roy: I have given you God’s Standard of marriage but you have reject it. There is nothing You will excpet, that is mention in the Word of God that shows your view as being wrong.
You believe that it’s ok for divorced people to remarry. God’s Standard of Marriage does not allow it. Jesus himself emphasized it: “If a man divorces his wife and marries another woman, he is guilty of the sin of adultery. And the man that marries a divorced woman is also guilty of adultery.” Luke 16:18.
In fact, Jesus says nothing about gay marriage, but he’s recorded forbidding remarriage after divorce three times, here and in Matthew and Mark. Only in Matthew does he suggest one exception. Paul further emphasizes the point, adding one further justification for divorce (a believer being left by an unbelieving spouse) but forbidding remarriage (1 Cor. 7:11).
You, Pastor Roy, have repeatedly insisted in conversations I’ve had that the new marriage is blessed by God. Yet Jesus and Paul both clearly command married Christians who do divorce to remain single and celibate thereafter.
Neither of them says one word about same-sex marriage, yet you insist God’s standard of marriage obviously excludes it. Both of them speak in clear and forceful terms about post-divorce remarriage, yet you ignore their words and insist that’s ok.
How do you justify that?
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What the Bible Really Says About Sex
By Pastor Mark Driscoll
Published January 03, 2012
| FoxNews.com
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/01/03/what-bible-really-says-about-sex/?intcmp=obnetwork#ixzz1j54lfbS2
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