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New York pastors and lay people arrested for praying in protest
NEW YORK—Police Thursday arrested 43 New York City pastors and lay people who were protesting the city’s ban on church use of public schools for worship services. The ban is scheduled to go into effect Feb. 12.
The arrests came after more than 200 people gathered in the rain outside a Bronx public school where Mayor Michael Bloomberg was giving his State of the City address. After singing songs and cheering speeches, protesters walked out in orderly groups of five to eight to kneel in front of barricades and pray. Police warned them to leave and then made arrests on charges of disorderly conduct.
The New York Board of Education wants to ban religious use of schools on Sunday mornings or at other times the schools are otherwise unused—even though the churches rent the space, dropping an estimated several million dollars per year into the city cashbox. If the ban prevails, more than 150 congregations will have to move to other meeting space starting next month—and that’s hard to find in New York City. … MORE >>
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“Board of Education officials stuck with their ban, though, saying it will protect the minds of ‘impressionable youth.’”
Meet Post-Christian America.
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Whatever happened to the First Amendment? Oh, that’s right — it’s NYC and Bloomberg.
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Do we need any more proof that America can now be counted among the nations who discriminate against Christians? Contrast this situation with union supporters and “occupier” protests.
“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Mat 5:12-13 ESV)
“In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Tim 3:12-13 ESV)
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Correction: The Matthew 5 and 2 Timothy quotes above are from the NIV.
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Get ready of America’s version of Krystalnacht! Pretty soon, we will be the cause of everything from flatulence to global warming!
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When I read that they actually said the ban will protect impressionable youth, I got a chill in my body. Here it is. We are calling evil good and good evil.
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They should bid out access to the space. Either quarterly or yearly. Voila, more money for the schools. If nobody else wants to use the space then the churches pay nothing. If someone else wants to use it then it goes to the highest bidder.
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As we see Romans 1:28-32 being promoted as being normal, the Bible Believing Christian must be silence. The reason we are a threat to their views, and they see the children as a way to promote Romans 1:28-32 as being normal.
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The ban should only last until the next school board election.
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OWS ok.
Christians NOT ok.
Nothing has changed.
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OWS ok.
Christians NOT ok.
Nothing has changed.
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That’s weird.
I only hit “Post” once.
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Is this happening in New York Peoples Republic of China? This is the kind of stuff we read about in countries with anti-Christian govts.
Still like other readers, I was more surpised at the rationale than I was at the city of Mayor Bloomberg – Board of Education wants to protect their impressionable youth from Church? From learning about God?
Jesus said, “Let the children come to Me. . .” and He is King.
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“Attempts at a legislative fix are underway. New York Assemblyman Nelson Castro has introduced Bill A08800, which would allow “the use of school buildings and school sites for religious meetings and worship when not in use for school purposes or when such service or worship is deemed not disruptive of normal school operations.”
Here is the real danger: The New York Assembly is getting involved.
It sounds good that they want to pass a bill allowing the use of school buildings, but the subtle message in something like that is that the right to rent the building comes from the governmental bodies.
This is wrong. The right to contract is an unalienable right.
If the School Board is prohibiting this, then the people should work to oust the members who voted for this. Bob Buckles is correct.
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How about “spontaneous flash mob” services in public venues like subway stations or Times Square? Central Park? Prospect Park? Washington Square?
I would make myself as visible as possible!
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Voting the School Board Memeber out is the start. The real problem is getting the Judges Ruling Over turn.
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The reason is those who believe the Christian Faith is a threat to their world views and moral values, will defend ruling like this one to the bitter end.
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saying it will protect the minds of “impressionable youth.”
—–
Let see who school board say is ok to impact the minds of “impressionable youth.” , can someone name some groups?
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More secularist intoerance. Secular humanism is a radical religion (self-worship) and it cannot brook free competition.
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Immpressionable youth are far more in danger from the public school curriculum than from the churches using their space on Sunday.
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A story from China – “A house church was raided by officials of the Public Service Bureau. The church has received a formal announcement of closure of their “illegal gathering.” A government spokesman confirmed the raid of an “illegal religious gathering site” because of their “disturbance of social order.”
In this case, the Board of Education officials said they needed to protect the minds of “impressionable youth.”
I don’t see much difference; disturbance of social order vs. protect the minds of impressionable youth. It is against the law in China to evangelize anyone under 18. Where are we headed?
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Lets see
The Abortion Groups are permitted to impact the minds of the youth
GLBT Community are permitted to impact the minds of the youth
The Anti-American Groups are permitted to impact the minds of the youth
The Anti-Christian Groups are permitted to impact the minds of the youth
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But those mean old Bible Believing Christian can not use the building when the students are not there for fear that some how, those mean old Bible Believing Christian are going to impact those youth, who do not attend the services.
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The histrionics on this thread are impressive even by WMB standards. Seriously.
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This is actually unconstitutional and has already been tested in court in the Lamb’s Chapel case. Hers is some more info on it:
http://aclj.org/equal-access/lamb-s-chapel-v.-center-moriches-school-district-1993—equal-access-for-religious-use
Hopefully the ACLJ or other groups are getting involved.
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Two questions come to mind and a comment:
1. What if the users of the public schools (and the protesters) would have been Muslim? Would they still have been arrested? I seriously doubt it.
2. Why is this persecution/prosecution of Christians happening? Because satan knows his time on this earth is limited. His days are numbered and he is working as hard as he can to defeat Christ and His followers.
Comment. Solution? II Chronicles 7:14. “If my people will ….pray…I will heal their land.”
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Apparently the legal question being resolved was what precipitated by the move by the NYC Education Dept.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/nyregion/in-failure-of-legal-bid-churches-set-to-lose-public-school-space.html
Google “Churches to Lose Use of School Space After a Legal Push Fails” and click through to circumvent the NYT paywall.
The district court ruled against Bronx Household of Faith and the Supreme Court refused to hear their appeal. District court ruling is here, in which they specifically deal with the Lamb’s Chapel decision.
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This unconstitutional action cannot be allowed to stand. If the Board of Education is successful here, there will only be more of these anti-Christian activities directed against people of faith. Prayer is needed, and this action should be challenged strongly in the federal courts.
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It seems that when some (like the poster at #24 perhaps) realize that the right is right or that Christians are actually being discriminated against unfairly, all they can do is refer to our arguments “histrionics.”
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See my previous post. Was challenged. District court ruled against. Supreme court refused to hear the case.
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It seems that when some … realize that the right is right or that Christians are actually being discriminated against unfairly, all they can do is refer to our arguments “histrionics.”
In fact that’s not all I can do, as evidenced by subsequent posts on the subject. But when a decision like this one in New York causes immediate “OMG WE’RE CHINA!!!!” reactions…that’s histrionics.
For what it’s worth, I disagree with the policy. I think churches should be allowed to hold regular worship services in school buildings. I don’t think they should be given preference over other groups that might want to rent those buildings out for their own purposes, but I also don’t think they should be specifically excluded.
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You can read it is “OMG WE’RE CHINA!!!!” or you can read it as “There is a logical line from a situation like this to what’s going on in China.” And there is. To take the first step on a bad road is not necessarily to desire to reach the other end; maybe you really are just going to the store for some milk. But everyone should realize which road it is.
“Never again” doesn’t mean “don’t worry until you see them build the gas ovens.” It means “be vigilant; the loss of freedoms begins small.” You don’t even have to believe that it inexorably or even probably *will* end in more overt persecution; you just have to realize that it could, and respond not in terms “but we’re not there yet, so what, me worry?” but in terms of “this is a road we should not even step on.”
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“See my previous post. Was challenged. District court ruled against. Supreme court refused to hear the case. ”
And now is being protested. Despite the court ruling, the Board of Education is actually still free to act in a rational manner. The court did not rule that they *had* to foolishly discriminate against worship services, just that they *could.* Protesting to try to get them to be reasonable is a perfectly legitimate action; the fact that the court ruled that they have the right to do it does not mean that their actions cannot be protested for the discriminatory idiocy that they are.
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pentamom1 – Those who view the Christian Faith as being the enemy will not let the Board of Education, change it stands. The reason they want these ruling so they can use them in other areas.
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“There is a logical line from a situation like this to what’s going on in China.”
If that’s what had been said, and in that even tone, then I wouldn’t have described it as “histrionics” despite disagreeing.
Protesting to try to get them to be reasonable is a perfectly legitimate action
Agree. What I said that you quoted:
was in direct response to JGM’s having said:
It already was challenged in the federal courts. The challenge failed.
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Based on a Pew Research poll from 2007 http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/pew-religion-08/flash.htm (which probably indicates that my numbers are actually skewed in favor of Christians, there are more Atheists (17%) than Evangelical Christians (11%) in New York State. Throw in the 39% of New York that claims to be Catholic, and you have a majority that would side with the silence of the SCOTUS to not hear this case. Christians are being marginalized because they are in the vast minority in New York State. Taking it even further, New York City itself is probably much more secular than evangelical, and I am being kind in saying that. Profess belief in Jesus Christ and the Bible being the Word of God, and you’ll be ostracized in the public square in New York.
So those that would suggest that you can vote out those on the Board of Education who have caused this, I would suggest to you that the majority would affirm what they did.
The only other solution for a Evangelical Christian to point to, is to leave the State of New York. And with high taxes, lousy weather, and a populace that hates God, that would be the solution I would consider if I belonged to one of the churches that was being evicted. Then again, I’ve already suggested that Californian Christians leave their State as well. That seems to be the only solution for an evangelical community that is fast become a small minority of the overall population – especially in dark blue states such as CA and NY.
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“…and this action should be challenged strongly in the federal courts.”
Don’t you think he meant the arrest of the protesters?
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These churches should just take their rent money and go use it somewhere else. The schools may start missing the rent revenue and start renting to a similar group then you have them on discrimination.
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37 – Pentamom…that’s how I read it. I would suspect some trumped up charges of lack of permits, etc., however…
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Don’t you think he meant the arrest of the protesters?
It’s possible, but that wasn’t how I read it. Due mainly to his having said, “If the Board of Education is successful here…”
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“Board of Education officials stuck with their ban, though, saying it will protect the minds of ‘impressionable youth.’”
What an incredible statement. Protect from what? When you start excluding young people from hearing the words of Jesus (’Love your enemies’ ‘do good to those who hate you’) then you do them a great disservice.
Nothing has the power to change a person for good than the Gospel.
http://christiangoodinsociety.blogspot.com/p/impact-on-individual-lives.html
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Krystalnacht??
Good grief!
I can only imagine the reaction if the protestors had been Muslims wanting to use the schools. Or Wiccans or Branch Davidians…
And you have to love Phileo above who summarily ejects Roman Catholics from Christianity.
Everyone’s a heretic.
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Bansaw: When you start excluding young people from hearing the words of Jesus (’Love your enemies’ ‘do good to those who hate you’) then you do them a great disservice
What about the words of Allah, Baal, Zeus or Joseph Smith? Do you really want all those folks clamoring for state-supported meeting rooms? BTW, have I told you about my little blue teapot orbiting the moon? It makes your god look downright impotent. In fact, it created your god, then realized that he had screwed things up so he arranged for this fellow from Nazareth…
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BTW, has it occurred to anyone here that if nothing else, this thread provides that sometimes it IS handy to have schools well funded enough to PROVIDE big meeting rooms? Complete with staffs to open the doors at night, and see to it that the place is cleaned up and the bathrooms cleaned both before and after meetings…
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Mrs. N2M: OWS ok.
Christians NOT ok.
What are you smoking?? Did you not see all the videos of police beating OWS protestors with clubs, spraying them with pepper spray and otherwise harassing and attacking them, often when the protestors were already subdued and posing no threat?
When was the last time you visited the real world?
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Arcadia in 44,
It would probably be more handy if it was a private school. They would probably be easier to deal with.
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Conan,
They didn’t get out the riot gear until OWS had been there for months, with criminal complaints, public nudity and gross disturbance of the peace. There’s no comparison at all. We’re in the real world, and hoping you’ll show up here any time now.
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Debra – They was no rapes, drug use, violents with these people that were praying and sing. Unlike OWS.
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Well, instead of talking about it…is there some way to e-mail the board of education in that state or the mayor? To put a nice question of why this was such an issue (if not one that is covered up by the press) yet other protest are not and why the church’s money is apparently not good enough. Of course the only thing i really question is the whole ‘impressionable youth’ part.
Don’t get me wrong, i spitefully agree with the arrest in the fact that they were warned to back off and as such should’ve done so because they were asked. But i do not agree with how the Board is acting at all. If they really wanted to protect their children they wouldn’t just ban Christianity, they would ban free thinking for all. Children are impressionable; they are like vases seeking to be filled, so just hide them till they grow up and you’ll be fine…no wait, people did that and those children were so messed up it isn’t funny.
What needs to be realized is that there are things you don’t want to see(some people don’t want to see Christianity), but it’s out there. I don’t want to hear cussing walking down the street but it doesn’t stop the guy next to me. I don’t want to see violence and gore, but it doesn’t mean they won’t give me commercials with that even on shows that should be safe for family viewing. The ban is too specific…it isn’t fair.
Teach a child to love, anything else you wish to impress upon them should be secondary; this is what Jesus would say in my opinion. I do not know politics and frankly i could not follow them because i’m too trusting of people and would wish to believe whoever painted the prettiest picture. But i can be logical and this entire thing seems illogical. Religion has been shown as a good thing in the modern world (sure it has its mistakes like some crusades, but the secular world has some mistakes too, like coups just for power).
Oh well…there’s the rant and what not…
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Ha. Pastor Roy, I wouldn’t be surprised if the praying and singing is perceived as more violent and upsetting to the demonic spirits inhabiting and influencing many of these places than the actual rapes and drug abuse that have occurred there.
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Debra That is true, the demonic spirits do not like it when GOd’s people start to sing and prise Him.
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Your comment reminds me of what the Word said happen David started to sing in front of King Saul.
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Sounds like the NYC police should be “goose-stepping”. Christians in America are starting to be treated as the Jews were in Nazi Germany.
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bigbill1961 – it could be the open steps to such actions
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also weclome bigbill1961
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“What about the words of Allah, Baal, Zeus or Joseph Smith? Do you really want all those folks clamoring for state-supported meeting rooms?”
No, I don’t. But there’s no “state-supported” going on here. The rooms were already built whether or not they got used by anybody, and they weren’t going to be used by anybody else on a Sunday morning. Not forbidding people from renting something is not “support.”
So I actually don’t have a *legal* issue with any of those folks using existing space in a way that costs “the state” nothing, though you’re right, I don’t “want” it.
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Maybe we need to rephrase for Conan:
OWS okay for two months.
Christians not okay for a few hours.
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I would think that a sincere liberal secularist could just look at a story like this and say, yeah, this opposition is a step too far and this time the Christians have a point.
But many cannot do this.
BUDDYGLASS, my take (it’s my impression from some posts) is that you and others on this thread just don’t really care that Christians are being singled out for unjust discrimination. With liberals, it seems that if you are not part of a voting constitutency group that can be manipulated into harnessing more power for Democrats, then discrimination and disrespect against a politically incorrect group is just fine. We are mocked for simply stating the truth against unjust discrimination.
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I use the New American Standard these days, but most of my memorization is still from the beautiful, poetic King James.
Ephesians 6:12 – For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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No, I don’t. But there’s no “state-supported” going on here.
Sure there is. The taxpayers paid for the facility and they also pay for the personnel needed to open, close and clean it up. If they are like most auditoriums I have seen, they probably have a piano or a couple of instruments and a sound system of some kind.
New York City is lousy with private hotels and meeting rooms. Presumably, the churches want to rent these facilities ONLY because they are cheaper than all of those private facilities.
To refine the point, here are a bunch of “conservative” bloggers not just encouraging, but demanding that the government compete with private businesses.
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Phileo, I say this with all the love of Christ as you are my rother in Him but your conclusion to your statement is demonic. We are not called to flee the areas where we are outnumbered, that is on the contrary where we are suppost to be. I have been involved in evangelism in NYC since the age of 3, and I remember when (17 years ago) it was a blessed time if three people would actually listen. In the past two years, from one event we had done in Central Park, I have seen more than a thousand stop and listen to the gospel being preached.
Two decades ago, it used to be a miracle if three stop to listen. A decade ago, it would be a miracle if three accepted Christ. Two years ago, we had hundredds of people listening to an evangilistic outreach (a coop between 8 different churches, a new record since most evangelical churches refuse to work with one another) and 14 people came to Christ publicly (a first) with many more coming up in private. The past two years I have seen much fruit from the preaching in Central Park, on Wall Street, on Jones Beach, and in Colombia University.
I was preaching on Wall Street and I got the opportunity to talk to several people who had questions, and I was thanked by believers who were working there, and the evangelistic team and I were thanked by the local parks and recreation bureaucrat for not being crazy. (a significant improvement in their attittude toward us, which is vital for permits) There is so much hunger in NYC, and it is growing. The fact is that these problems, political, economical, poverty, etc. cannot be solved politically, especially in a majoritarian system where you are the minority. No, the only solution to the mess that is NYC is the same solution to the mess of every other city, region, and people, the gospel.
If the percentages you provided is true, than out of the 23 million in the NYC region, 1 out of 9 are believers. Who knew 2.6 million believers lived in and around NYC? How much can be done if this large number were to act in unity? God has plans for this city, and I am glad to have been working in the center of His will for this city when no one listened and when they did listen. The field is ripening and harvest time is apporaching. The workers are few enough, do not encourage the remaining to flee and let the harvest rot.
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Arcadia, #60 is quite wrong. The auditoriums the churches I attended that met in pulbic schools had no sound system, instuments or sometimes faculty to clean the place. They were in poor neighberhoods, and the local public school is the only auditorium in the neighberhood. And they do not come cheap, hotels can be taken out for cheaper than what some charge, but the hotels are in tourist areas far from the hoods and the ghettos which I guess I know far more intimately than you do.
Sadly many of these cash strapped schools are going to hurt even more with the loss of a revenue stream.
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ROM116 – Thanks for the words from someone who is there. I think the rest of us will stand back and ponder all you have said for awhile!
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God bless you and your team, Rom116. Your words are honey in a bitter world.
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Debra: They didn’t get out the riot gear until OWS had been there for months, with criminal complaints, public nudity and gross disturbance of the peace. There’s no comparison at all. We’re in the real world, and hoping you’ll show up here any time now.
Sorry democracy isn’t always neat and tidy, but yeah, when you have a huge number of people turning out to protest something, a few unfortunate things may happen. Seizing on those incidents to discredit the whole movement and its cause is fundamentally dishonest.
More to the point, the police were eager to act violently. There is video from New York of a white-shirted cop walking up to a cage that had been erected on the sidewalk and pepper-spraying the women already confined there and then walking away casually. These women were not posing any threat. They had been arrested and confined in the makeshift cell awaiting transport to wherever arrestees get taken.
And of course, there’s the infamous video from UC Davis of the cop walking up and down the line of students who were kneeling quietly on the ground and pepper spraying them.
There’s a serious problem with freedom of speech in this country. The Christians detailed in this post had every right to protest and, even though I disagree with their argument completely, I am certain that interfering with their protest is wrong.
But it’s simply not true to say that OWS was allowed to protest freely. In most cities, they’ve been harassed, attacked, arrested and assaulted, not to mentioned libeled and slandered, and it’s a testament to the strength of their convictions that they persevere.
But in both cases, authoritarian city governments are not being especially accommodating to the First Amendment.
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“when you have a huge number of people turning out to protest something, a few unfortunate things may happen. Seizing on those incidents to discredit the whole movement and its cause is fundamentally dishonest.”
Oh blarney. Everybody knows that when the dogs gather to play, fleas and ticks join the party uninvited. But if there’s any fundamental dishonesty here, it’s all yours Conan, since it is also common knowledge that police were not called out right away until the protesters had become quite destructive.
And we also know from the 8/28/2010 Restoring Honor rally on the Mall, that hundreds of thousands of people who are fundamentally protesting the way their government is being corrupted can pay for their own security, peacefully assemble and leave the place spotless—-IF that’s at all important to them.
The OWS participants were getting enormous support, including open Presidential approval, and backing from major unions, political parties and public figures . They could have policed themselves if being law abiding was really important to them. It just wasn’t that high on the list of priorities. If it had been I would probably have been more supportive myself, as I believe that Wall St does indeed house our de facto secondary government, and as such, is protest-worthy.
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Yeah yeah, of course OWS as a whole is responsible for every action taken by every individual who shows up.
I’m not even going to get dragged into that boneheaded argument. My point is that free speech, whether conservative or liberal, religious or non-religious, is under attack from authoritarian government. You can discuss that point with me, or not.
I believe that Wall St does indeed house our de facto secondary government, and as such, is protest-worthy.
Yeah, it’s funny how your deeply held convictions always take a backseat to any opportunity to criticize liberals.
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my take … is that you and others on this thread just don’t really care that Christians are being singled out for unjust discrimination.
Yes and no. First of all, I don’t think Christians are being singled out since the law applies to all faiths. That said, currently Christian churches make up the vast majority of religious groups currently holding services in schools. Even so, I don’t think animus toward Christianity per se is the motivation behind this law.
As to whether I care, yes I do, but I don’t think it’s as big a deal as some of you do. The comparisons to Nazi Germany and China are ridiculous. If I were Jewish I might even find them offensive.
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“Sure there is. The taxpayers paid for the facility and they also pay for the personnel needed to open, close and clean it up. If they are like most auditoriums I have seen, they probably have a piano or a couple of instruments and a sound system of some kind. ”
If they are like most rental agreements I have seen, the tenants actually have keys and clean up after themselves, and are not entitled to use equipment that is not part of the rental agreement — and if it’s part of the rental agreement, then they’re paying for the privilege. And if someone is “opening it up, cleaning it,” etc., the renters are paying for that service.
Again, allowing someone to purchase a service or rent property with whatever services are included is not “supporting” them.
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“In most cities, they’ve been harassed, attacked, arrested and assaulted, not to mentioned libeled and slandered, and it’s a testament to the strength of their convictions that they persevere. ”
I would really like to see some documentation of this extremely broad claim. “Most cities?” Occupiers have set up in hundreds cities of all sizes all across the country, and we’ve heard of maybe a dozen places where there has been even any suggestion of official abuse. “Harassed,” depending how you define it, “attacked,” and “assaulted” I can agree are wrong, but arrested is not definitively a problem. Some people need to be arrested *because they are committing crimes.*
In order for your initial raising of the OWS comparison to have any validity as a comparison to this situation, you’d actually need to show that genuinely peaceful OWS protesters in general have not been allowed to remain unmolested *by the authorities* for one entire day in “most” places. But I’d settle even for evidence that your claim that they’ve been mistreated in “most cities.”
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“Yeah, it’s funny how your deeply held convictions always take a backseat to any opportunity to criticize liberals. “
Sorry to disappoint, but I have no political conviction that requires me to jump from the frying pan to the fire. And only those who legitimately open themselves up for it get the criticism.
I’m still wondering about your apparent change of position from liberal to ‘moderate conservative’. Why the change? What have been the deciding factors?
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sorry 71 is a response to Conan@67
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In order for your initial raising of the OWS comparison to have any validity…
Contra Conan, I think the two groups were treated differently. But not because one is viewed favorably and the other not. Without researching each case extensively, it seemed like the Christian protestors in NYC were blocking the entrances to government buildings. Weren’t the OWS guys just squatting in a public park?
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These are public structures and they should be available for public use on off hours on equal terms with others. Too many (usually leftist) anti-Christian bigots, however, atre not always willing to acknowledge that Christians pay taxes too and are part of “we the people.”
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BUDDYGLASS wrote; “I don’t think Christians are being singled out since the law applies to all faiths.”
I disagree, BG. The article made it clear: “Board of Education officials stuck with their ban, though, saying it will protect the minds of ‘impressionable youth.’”
Plus, as you indicated, “…currently Christian churches make up the vast majority of religious groups currently holding services in schools.”
This is unfair discrimination against Christians who are being singled out, in effect and in fact, for unjust discrimination.
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Buddyglass @73 “Christian protestors in NYC were blocking the entrances to government buildings. Weren’t the OWS guys just squatting in a public park?”
Surely you’re joking. OWS deliberately blocked access to retail businesses on Black Friday in an effort to negatively impact the economic well-being of those establishments. They blocked entire PORTS in LA and other cities. For weeks they were disrupting neighborhoods with their incessant drumming. And that’s just a very few of the many examples available. Yet leftists want to make these people and their prosecution somehow equivalent to a few Christians at the entrance of a building —who were apparently not even blocking egress?? Incredible.
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Christians being persecuted is nothing new-look at what is happening overseas. But it is new for us here in the US. We need to realize that according to the Bible we are in the last days and this is going to only get worse. We do need to let our voices be heard for justice and to stand up for our beliefs.For those of us who belong to Jesus, we need to lift our heads erect, our deliverance is near. For the rest of mankind, they need to pray that God will reveal Himself to them because soon it will be very bad here.
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At the risk of sounding arrogant [which, of course, is UNChristian]: If the Bible is true and Jesus is the Messiah, then, as taught by the Bible, there is a spiritual discernment that comes with the Holy Spirit that is unavailable to the secular perception, and has little to do with intelligence [Hitler was intelligent]. In this discernment one can see the work of Satan in what, to even the intelligent secular mind, seems innocuous. Anything that retards or blocks the teachings of Jesus cannot be healthy for the human family. [Which of his teachings would you want to be withheld from anyone's "impressionable mind"?] But when the secular mind hears these things, of course, they sound to it like Medieval superstition, or histrionics. The reason secularists have no need to fear even the most histrionic Christian reactions to suppression of faith is because the faith being histrionically upheld requires the love of enemies and forbids forcing anything on anyone. And those who are most deeply devoted to the Christian faith would not tolerate other “Christians” behaving violently or dictatorially. It is important, therefore, not to overreact against those who desire to hold forth the Faith because of fear of theocracy. No true Christian would tolerate a theocracy. It would be much smarter for the secularist to encourage growth in the Christian faith, because it makes even his world much safer than any other philosophy on earth.
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This may be a FIRST for the USA…VERY like the arrests we see in China…but it will certainly NOT be the last…The walls of the US Constitution are crumbling because the walls of our hearts and stand for the God of the Bible in America have crumbled. It is almost certain that the tsunami of persecution is breaking upon the shores of America because she no longer blesses God and He is now no longer blessing her. How interesting that it is coming ashore in the city that stands in view of the Statue of Liberty where religious liberty is being lost. However believers are citizens of a ‘better country’ and we are to ’stand’ and ‘continue to stand’…I hope we are prepared to stand firm for the Lord and for one another.
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Marlyn 78 – Let me assure you that I am generally on your side on this subject, but I wouldn’t expect any non-Christian to buy your statement “No true Christian would tolerate a theocracy”. They don’t distinguish between “true” and “non-true” Christians (and how could they)?
We have to remember that they see every Baptist as part of the Westboro Church, every Catholic as a child rapist, and on and on. They believe both Hitler and Stalin were Christians, because they were baptized as babies.
One heart at a time is the only way.
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TWH: What?
Unless your writing in #80 was extraordinarily sloppy, you’re saying that “any non-Christian” sees “every Baptist as part of the Westboro Church, every Catholic as a child rapist, and on and on.”
Is that your position? Is that what you think all non-Christians think?
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Conan – This was obviously hyperbole, meant to exaggerate a point for effect. Looks like it worked. If it makes you feel better, replace “We have to remember that” with, “It seems as though”.
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Conan – This was hyperbole, meant to exaggerate a point for effect. Looks like it worked. If it makes you feel better, replace “We have to remember that” with, “Sometimes it seems as though”.
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TWH: If it makes you feel better, replace “We have to remember that” with, “Sometimes it seems as though”.
Better idea: Replace “any non-Christian” with “a few non-Christians.”
Hyperbole in this context is indistinguishable from gross overgeneralization. And I do object. Most non-Christians, in fact, do NOT see Christians as you describe. Many non-Christians were Christians at some point in their lives, and virtually all of them have Christians friends and family members.
Describing it as you do sets up an us vs. them mentality and is detrimental to any kind of meaningful discussion. I don’t think it’s helpful, even hyperbolically, to set up an attitude that assumes everyone who doesn’t share your beliefs also sees you in the worst light possible.
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“Weren’t the OWS guys just squatting in a public park? ”
In New York in particular, it was private property. They were tolerated doing that for a long time even after many incidents of vandalism. In most cities, they were tolerated for a LONG TIME camping rather than merely protesting (there is no First Amendment right to camp) and things like that. Even in places like Davis where the response was handled horribly, it wasn’t done within hours of the start of the violations, even when there were clear legal violations. And in New York, they were keeping people off the public sidewalks at times through intimidation, which at least comes close to blocking building entrances.
Yes, there are differences, and I don’t take issue with treating different cases differently. But a LOT of leeway was given to OWS people in a LOT of circumstances. Locally, they were infringing on permitted uses of the public park for a LONG time, and rather than just showing up and carting them off in handcuffs, every time the city had a problem with what they were doing, they “came to talk to them” and did not immediately arrest them for continued non-compliance. It took months before clearly illegal (though non-violent) actions were cracked down on.
I am not chalking this up to anti-Christian bias — I don’t know the motives of the NYC officials. If I had to guess, it would be more based on a greater fear of the OWS political clout versus the relatively small clout of this protest group. But to deny that OWS got a lot more breaks for a lot longer is also not reasonable.
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Some comments by Conan under this story:
When was the last time you visited the real world?
I’m not even going to get dragged into that boneheaded argument
Dear Pot, Quite calling me black. Sincerely, The Kettle
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You know, all this jib jab back and forth is actually quite interesting. Whether inalienable rights or free speech are at stake seems to do nothing but the beg question.
As a Christian, I think reframing the context would be more appropriate.
I have a hard time imagining the early disciples waging war against “the man” because they cannot meet in the pagan Roman forums, or schools.
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Deliverdetroit – As a matter of fact, they DID meet in every public place that existed. This only ended when “the man” persecuted them into hiding. In fact, Paul used the great advantage of his Roman citizenship to avoid being taken back to Jerusalem by the Romans (appeal to Caesar), which would have meant death on the road from 40 Jews sworn to kill him.
Acts 21 – 25 tells the very interesting story.
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Ha. Yes, DeliverDetroit, we love to outrage and to be outraged in our turn. It’s part of the game—war games so to speak—flexing our reading and writing and debating muscles. Just having a good time in the process, and occasionally (very occasionally for some of us) learning a little patience, a little charity and a very little self-restraint.
But to your point, I think we are more accustomed to think of the forum and the schools as ‘ours’ (meaning predominately Christian) rather than pagan. But your description is probably much more accurate.
Welcome to the forum. And may God answer your prayer, and truly Deliver Detroit…and the rest of our cities and towns while He’s at it. :–)
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TWH – Maybe I needed to reiterate the point a little more clearly. As you aptly stated, “This only ended when “the man” persecuted them into hiding” is exactly what I was pointing out.
The few public places that early disciples existed were not permanent structures. Of course, the Synagogues, while Judaism was still in part permitting a ‘new’ Jewish sect, was semi-permanent. The school of Tyrannus, apparently accommodated a larger gathering of a significant band of new converts. However, they mostly met from house to house.
So to say as I originally intended, when, and IF any of those public places were taken from them, there was no protest. They continued meeting from house to house.
And in the case of Paul’s citizenship, had he NOT appealed to Caesar, he would’ve lived.
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James Lee – I guess you changed your name from Deliverdetroit?
The consequences of “protest” were a little more severe under Roman rule than they are in America. The Romans didn’t tolerate any civil disobedience, especially in troublesome outlying areas. I don’t see where the fact that the early Christians didn’t mount visible protests is relevant to the current situation.
Beyond that, I do recommend that you read Acts 21-25. It’s very clear that Paul knew that he was an immediate dead man if he was taken back out on that road to Jerusalem. As it was, much of his ministry, and important writing occurred AFTER this event. Acts 25: 1-3 outlines the plot.
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