Metaxas brings down the house at National Prayer Breakfast
WASHINGTON—Speakers at the annual National Prayer Breakfast in the nation’s capital usually keep their talks diplomatic. After all, the room is filled with ambassadors, lawmakers from both parties, Cabinet members, and people of various faiths from around the world.
But Eric Metaxas, the featured speaker Thursday morning and the author of biographies on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and William Wilberforce, talked to an audience of 4,000 important people about false religion, human depravity, poverty, slavery, and abortion. But the New York author delivered his sharp commentary with his trademark wit, which kept the audience roaring with laughter. (See below for video of the event.)
The halls of the Washington Hilton, the hotel that hosts the breakfast, were buzzing afterward as people discussed the speech—Metaxas’ speech, not President Obama’s, which followed. Outside the hotel, a protestor asked, “Is it true what I’m hearing, that Eric Metaxas talked about Jesus?”
It was true. At one point, Metaxas led those in attendance in the singing of the hymn “Amazing Grace,” and the president joined in. The author attacked “phony religiosity,” which he struggled through as an agnostic studying at Yale before he became a Christian.
“Jesus was and is the enemy of dead religion,” Metaxas said. “He came to deliver us from that.” Prayer, he said, emanates from “real faith in God,” adding that faith in Jesus leads to courageous acts like those of Bonhoeffer and Wilberforce.
At one point Metaxas handed his biographies on Wilberforce and Bonhoeffer to Obama, mentioning that President George W. Bush had read the Bonhoeffer book. “No pressure,” Metaxas added. Afterward Obama almost left the room without the books but came back and tucked them under his arm. … MORE >>

















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back to top109 Comments to “Metaxas brings down the house at National Prayer Breakfast”
He certainly did, as I subtley tried to describe this morning. He was absolutely fantastic! Unfortunately some posters were discouraged by comments confusing this with another group. The video is definitely a keeper.
God is good.
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Why doesn’t someone clarify for socialists, such as President Obama and Jim Wallis, that all the Scriptures they quote have nothing at all whatsoever to do with government.
They have to do with we as individuals taking care of our brothers and sisters, helping the least of these, etc.
Socialists, aka Obama and Wallis, break the 8th commandment by stealing from their neighbors through high taxes to the government – where most of those taxes are eaten up with overhead – and then giving what’s left of those tax dollars to their other neighbors.
BTW, they also encourage Americans to break the 10th commandment by fomenting covetousness and envy of their neighbor’s land, home, bank account, etc. “It’s not fair that other people have more than me.”
So by thusly distorting Scriptures, can they be said to be breaking the 9th commandment as well, Thou shalt not bear false witness?
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Mr. Obama again show that he has no idea what a pray breakfeast is about.
“The president also advocated higher taxes for the wealthy. “I think to myself, am I willing … to give up some of the tax breaks I enjoy?” he said. “It coincides with Jesus’ teaching, ‘To whom much is given, much is required.’”
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Eric Metaxas focus on God..Mr. Obama focus on himself.
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Obama referenced partnerships with Catholic Charities and said his administration is “linking arms with faith-based groups across the country.” (Catholics at least might dispute the “linked arm” imagery after his administration recently cut off anti-trafficking grants to Catholic Charities, which is considered one of the most effective agencies in that field.)
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Only with the far left groups, he has not partner with the Christian Church.
The proof is seen in Mr. OBama pushing the GLTB Community Life Style onto the Military and his endless attack on marriage and he Christian Faith.
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I’ve had the pleasure of reading Metaxas’s excellent biography of Bonhoeffer. He is the real article, a former secular Yalie who has become a seriously orthodox Christian.
Bonhoefer is an example of a brilliant theologian who was effective as a pastor and had the courage to illegally run a seminary and fight Hitler for which he was hung in April 1945.
Bonhoeffer was the opposite of the many Christians today who wish to avoid their virulent secular enemies and withdraw into a comfortable cocoon of like minded folk who lack any clue as to what it takes to deal with a serious enemy. Like Ron Paul, they live in a dream world.
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Loved the speech…I too have Bonhoeffer yet was unfamiliar with the author. Great job Mr. Metaxas.
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Buckeye, then you’d also like this speech of Metaxas on his Bonheffer book:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/297062-1
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HRH40 asked; “Why doesn’t someone clarify for socialists, such as President Obama and Jim Wallis, that all the Scriptures they quote have nothing at all whatsoever to do with government. They have to do with we as individuals taking care of our brothers and sisters, helping the least of these, etc.”
They already know it. Socialists like Obama and Wallis just want to parade themselves and compassionate, but they want others to do all the giving. They want to be seen as the heroes while others do all the sacrificing.
That’s liberalism in America today.
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I listened to President Obama’s speech…and find it very difficult to reconcile “linking arms with faith-based groups” with his administration’s blatant restrictions on religious freedom, or his talk of helping “the least of these” with his administration’s support in allowing the murder of “the very least of these.” When Nancy Pelosi exhorts us to “ask God what He wants us to do,” in these very important areas isn’t His will already abundantly clear?
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Metataxes was interviewed on FamilyLife Today, about Bonhoeffer. I have assigned that book for my boy’s reading so we listened to it, and it became part of a discussion on how we can live out our faith in troubling times.
Go Eric! You are modeling a very winsome approach.
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Bonhoeffer’s execution came just a few weeks before Hitler’s suicide and the end of the Nazi regime. It came as a surprise to read that Dietrich had the chance to remain in either England or the USA but instead chose to go back to Germany. The Nazis even tried to get him (in a last ditch effort at “peace”) to approach the allied forces and attempt to broker a peace deal. He refused.
There was a man before Bonhoeffer earlier in the earliest days of the 3rd Reich who won a Nobel Prize but was not permitted to go to Sweden to receive it. The Nazis executed him too.
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Tychicus – Mr. Obama iddea of “linking arms with faith-based groups” is forcing them to surrender their moral values to support his ideas.
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This has never happened before but where the vidseo is, I get just a blank space. Is anyone else not getting the video?
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I really enjoyed that speech, As Karen said, Metaxes has a very winsome approach and he is an example of the admonition to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. He got away with not only drawing a quiet but searing condemnation of abortion, but also cut on the other side by the section on loving our enemies. It is amazing what can be said, if it is said with love and humour.
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What’s up with that odd grin on Obama’s face?
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mrs.news2me
you have a pro-abotion, pro-gay man in Obama,listen to a Christian speak the truth. Could be a little conviction of the Holy Spirit.
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Metaxas gave Obama a book?!
Doesn’t he know that Obama doesn’t read?
Just ask him. Uh, uh, I read the NY Times and uh, on-line stuff. (like emails and texts from my adoring minions)
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That looks like a video worth watching. I’m very glad to hear Metaxas boldly addressed abortion. Good on him.
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Joel Mark (14): The video requires cookies to be allowed.
Do you not accept cookies?
–Ken Bland
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Mrs.News, my thought is, for one thing he appeared uncomfortable speaking after Eric Metaxas, and I wondered if he changed his remarks while recounting his visit with Billy Graham. I’m just not too sure how I felt about Obama stating that he felt compelled to pray for the Rev. Graham. But I’ll not read too much into that and give his motive the benefit of the doubt.
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Taxes are no more stealing than capital punishment is murder.
Anyway, in one sentence you say God’s commands are for individuals not governments, and in the next you say taxation (a function of government) is breaking the 8th commandment. That’s inconsistent.
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My wife gave me Metaxas’ book on Bonhoeffer for Christmas, but I haven’t read it yet. I feel motivated to start it.
It is amazing to hear Obama say that he implements wealth redistribution because the Bible tells him so.
The Bible does instruct people to give, but what Obama wants to do is take. He implements the Golden Rule with other people’s money. And as HRH40 pointed out it mostly enriches politicians and very little ever makes it to the poor.
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Xion – Mr. Obama problem is the Word of God talks about giving to the Church freely to help the poor and the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which brings freedom into people lives.
Mr. Obama idea is to force people to surrender their money to the Government for the spreading of Government programs that will enslave to Government hand outs.
It is a big different.
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JJF 22
Where does it say that our taxes should go to abortion?
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Where does it say that our taxes should go to every congressman’s pet project?
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Our congressmen took the money from our retirement (Soc.Sec.) to spend on other stuff. Did they pay it back? No!
Now they tell us it is broke and if we want it we will be stealing from our children.
THAT IS STEALING!!!
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Our city put our taxes in putting in a LAKE (cement pond) in the desert and very costly upkeep.
We just found out that they spent money to make our GOLF COURSE professional.
They have a whole list of Social Programs.
Our city keeps telling us we have BUDGET PROBLEMS. YA THINK?!
Our laws say they are supposed to make sure the roads are paved. Not happening. Hasn’t for some time now. Pot holes everywhere.
They raised our property taxes recently from already over the property’s worth. They raised our city sales taxes.
And now they are going to put in a “street car.”
They just finished putting in a tram/train.
But we are told transportation has BUDGET PROBLEMS so they cut back services. (It is already VERY COSTLY to ride the bus.)
If THAT isn’t STEALING, what is?!
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mrs.news2me – I know what Mr. Obama was think… I wish I could speak like that with out having to use a telapromter… With a speech writen for me by my handlers.
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Bonhoeffer was the opposite of the many Christians today who wish to avoid their virulent secular enemies and withdraw into a comfortable cocoon of like minded folk who lack any clue as to what it takes to deal with a serious enemy. Like Ron Paul, they live in a dream world.
******Rude and inaccurate, and, once again, showing a HUGE misunderstanding of Ron Paul and his supporters. You really ought to be ashamed, Sails, at this blatant and uncalled for ad hominem attack.
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Is this only place where METAXAS SPEECH is located?
I can’t find it on youtube.
The c-span connection doesn’t work very well.
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Bonhoeffer was the opposite of the many Christians today who refuse to take their Christian faith actively into controvertial politicized arenas. As a real Christian, he was not afraid to “get political” and get persecuted for it. He knew that being Christ-like can call us into all arenas of human concern. Bonhoeffer understood that the state needs the active input and involvement of true Christians at every level. He understood that it was not watering down his faith to take it into the political realm.
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If Bonhoeffer was alive today, he would sacrificially and passionately resist the efforts of activists and politicians to redefine marriage just to please a political constituency. He would NOT be passive or just regard marriage as a private matter. It is a public issue if there ever was one.
I have read one of Bonhoeffer’s wedding sermons and he was a ardent and passionate advocate of the sacredness of that institution as God ordained it. Bonhoeffer would oppose the marriage distorters with as much or more vigor as he opposed the Nazis.
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Ken, my computer gives me no options to accept anything. The place where the vidoe is supposed to be is just totally blank.
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Joel Mark – That is where he would be in conflict with RP. Whose view (RP) of send it back to the States would lead to Same Sex Marriage become legal through the Courts.
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In today’s world there is major pressure on the Christian’s to keep his and her faith to themselves, and not speak out agianst issues.
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The absolute disgusting shame of the news coverage of this, so far at least, is the praising of Obama’s appearance and his admiration of Billy Graham – almost as if this breakfast was his idea, totally out of context – in contrast with GOP candidates who are campaigning.
Next, the lefty cranks and radical conspiracy nuts will probably gear up to make excuses for his appearance at a prayer event sponsored by this “secretive Fellowship.” That was part of the opening beauty of Metaxas’s speech, when he preemptively and “wryly” mocked the bigoted anti-Christian charges.
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Louise – Obama speech was all about Obam,a not God, not the Nation but Obama. An it is shamful.
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For those having trouble viewing the video, we have it posted here and on the main Web Extra article. It’s also, of course, posted at C-SPAN’s site. Eric Metaxas’ remarks start at the 35:20 mark. President Obama’s speech follows Metaxas’.
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Tammy, at 30: You really ought to be ashamed, Sails, at this blatant and uncalled for ad hominem attack.
This was an assessment of those who, like Bonhoeffer, engage in a humble Christian way with their enemies as opposed to avoiding them, as Paul does; you assert, though hardly prove an argumentum ad hominem.
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Roy, I wish it were that simple. Obama and the rest of his lefty travelers conflate God and government, call it the Golden Rule, and condemn those who work against the threats of government domination of our lives.
It has less to do with the man than the philosophy, except to the extent that a man can fool the gullible into trusting him personally and confusing it with a political/religious philosophy.
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Thank you Web Editor
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It sadden me that Mr. Obama, took today’s pray breakfast, instead of focusing on God and the Spiritual Condition of the Nation. He try to turn it into a 2012 Obama reelection campaign stop. He focus on just himself and all he has try to do. Not on God, Not the Nation, but himself. Shame on you Mr. President, Shame on you.
I want to thank Eric Metaxas for focusing on God and given a great message and warning. Thank you for standing up for Christ.
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Louise – The Issue is we, the Christians, need to stand up and tell him no. You actions are not the actions of a born again Christian. We need to tell his supports that also. Even if it means upseting people.
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We must remember that obama does not speak from any great conviction but rather for convenience. His words are intended only to persuade others toward or deflect attention from the current situation. And he does it well. He has no concept of truth and therefore is not grounded in any singular position. This allows him to offer inconsistent and even conflicting messages without concern (ie speaking Christianese at a prayer breakfast). He is an unpleasant mix of egotistical politician and professorial academic. Others attribute to him great intelligence but I believe he is only the well-spoken pawn of far more focused and deliberate handlers.
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Roy, that IS happening, one by one, one on on, every day. God is working His Will. Amen.
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Interesting contrast by Tammy and Sails between Ron Paul the libertarian and Bonhoeffer the would-be assassin.
I don’t fault Bonhoeffer for his desire to assassinate Hitler, however I strongly disagree with him when he ties it to the church. It is not the mission of the church to assassinate people and I loathe his attempt to coin the term ‘costly grace’ in this manner.
John Birch was another great Christian missionary and military man, but he didn’t confuse the Christian mission with the killing of a secular enemy. I view Bonhoeffer as a great man who gave his life for what he believe in. Who can find fault with that?
However, his theology in certain instances reminds me of others, including Obama, who view their mission in life as making this temporal world a better place, rather than preaching Christ who has the eternal answer.
Which would have had a greater impact, dying for the public preaching against evil in the spirit of Martin Luther against overwhelming odds or secretly carrying a bomb to kill a bad guy?
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* one on one – and we pray for our President.
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I just watched the Metaxas speech again, ending with the audience standing to join him in the a capella singing of Amazing Grace. Lovely.
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BillK 45, Obama is not even well-spoken. That’s a myth belatedly deserving of someone to make the politically incorrect observation that, “The emperor has no clothes!”
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Xion – I also have some issues with the idea that Christians should be involved in plots to rid themselves of evil rulers. I have to say that I have not read Bonhoeffer’s writings on this. However, the plots that Bonhoeffer was involved in were on a far more complex scale that a simple carrying a bomb to kill a bad gut. The Abwehr, as the the intelligence wing of the German military, had long quietly opposed the policies of Hitler, using their position of influence to try to counteract the worse policies of Hitler. They were the competitors of the SS. They only gradually came to the conclusion that they must eliminate Hitler in order to save Germany. There was support among the army and even one or two of Hitler’s cabinet. Bonhoeffer was never a direct carrier of any bombs, he was actually an intelligence courier, one of a chain that was horrendously snapped and crushed when the second assassination attempt failed. In fact, Bonhoeffer was arrested before the second attempt, and was only executed when it failed.
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XION, Luther engaged his opponents and founded the Reformation. It made no sense for him to assassinate his enemies.
In Bonhoeffer’s case the costly grace of being involved in a plot to kill Hitler made perfect sense, though no doubt he agonized over the matter. I doubt that Christ regarded this as sinful.
It turns out that Bonhoeffer’s actions during the war are regarded historically as a redemption of a church that included not a few members who were caught up in the wicked national fervor for Hitler.
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Louise50, You are correct. obama is not technically ‘well-spoken’. He does however have the ability to captivate and even enchant tens of millions of Americans with his charismatic, smooth talk. Stalin said: “If you tell people what they want to hear, it becomes their truth.”
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BILLK #53 – Not to mention that Obama is a better singer than Mitt Romney.
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#51 Phos, To say the issue is more complex is a rationalization strategy. I am not opposed to anyone’s attempt to assassinate Hitler. I only oppose the idea that is has anything to do with Christianity.
Bonhoeffer did not carry the bomb in the Valkyrie operation, but he helped plan it. To say that does not mean involvement sounds like Obama’s defenders who say he didn’t assassinate American citizens because he only authorized their murders, but did not actually pull the trigger.
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Nope, Jesus would have been shocked and appalled at the thought of the most powerful entity in society, its government, actually helping the poor out. It would have been abhorrent to this man who believed above all else that what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours, no matter what. The very thought that a man like Mr Romney with his seven mansions and his 22 million in unearned income every year should have to part with any of that MONEY to help some one buy milk for their hungry baby never would have occurred to him. Mitt and his intact millions would be welcomed with open arms into whatever the Mormon version of heaven is. Just like all the preachers and cardinals, and popes with their golden mitres and grand cathedrals.
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#52 Sails “XION, Luther engaged his opponents and founded the Reformation. It made no sense for him to assassinate his enemies.”
Are you implying that Christianity occasionally supports such a notion? Did Christ?
“In Bonhoeffer’s case the costly grace of being involved in a plot to kill Hitler made perfect sense…”
OK, this is a major problem highlighting Bonhoeffer’s misuse of the term grace. Grace means “kindness to people who don’t deserve it.” If you think about it, this is a very radical dangerous idea. Yet it was the core of Jesus’ teaching. No one would assassinate another person for any reason having anything remotely related to grace. GRACE WOULD LET THE EVIL GO FREE!
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Mammon 1:4 The man to whom much is given, should straightaway stash it in another unneeded house. Or offshore account.
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#56 Arcadia, One could just as easily take your words and plug in Democrats. Romney gave 20% of his income to charity. Your messiah gave less than 1% and Joe Biden gave a whopping $369 bucks which wouldn’t care for any mother and child for a single month!
If you truly cared about the poor you would not pay to keep them impoverished for generations. Conservative policy is to give everyone a chance at the American dream rather than guaranteeing endless poverty.
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Thanks Emily Belz for sharing with us your experience of our “Annual National Prayer Breakfast.”
Think about the amazing ingredients of the President of the United States participating and with
him another 4000 important dignitaries listening to Eric Metaxas as the chosen main speaker!
What marvelous grace of God to have for THIS audience an effective rehearsal of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
and his heroic witnessing with the deed even to the sacrifice of his very life.
Question: “Emily do you know of ANY OTHER COUNTRY where such an experience as this is an
annual treat? Suggestion: Let us COUNT our BLESSINGS and then PRAY for an outpouring of God’s
grace upo this AMERICA, LAND OF THE FREE!! My fellow Christians, this annual National Prayer
Breakfast -which I attended twice- needs to fill our hearts and minds with fervor, with “ORA et
LABORA” pray and WORK by planting, sewing, cultivating and harvesting! This is my PLEA !
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Perhaps “shocking,” relative to the brazen-ness, is a better word. Here, Metaxes (one of the truly orthodox, Bonhoefferian “prophetic” – if I may use that term loosely – voices in the US today) talks about phony religion to a president who is the very epitome of that exact thing, and who then even stands to applaud, essentially certifying his phoniness. I found this article both disturbing, as well as helpful in that it illustrates how the left is attempting to co-opt real faith, either through incredible ignorance of truth, through incredible arrogance, or both. Jim Wallace of Sojourners is another one (whom Marvin Olasky at World Magazine caught lying about taking money from George Soros) This is the same president who, as senator, had the temerity to be the only one to vote in support of partial birth abortion (The Born Alive Act, vote was 99-1). Metaxes notes that faith in Christ leads to courageous acts, such as those of Bonhoeffer and Wliberforce. Interestingly, during Deitrich Bonhoeffer’s July 23, 1933 radio address he warned that “when a people idolize a leader, then the image of the leader will gradually become the image of the ‘misleader.’ Thus, the leader makes an idol of himself and mocks God.” Unfortunately, as the last sentences were being read, the microphones had been mysteriously switched off.” (Cited from When a Nation Forgets God – 7 Lessons we Must Learn from Nazi Germany, Erwin Lutzer, p. 132) Of course, today, instead of turning the switches off, the socialists just turn off free speech by their Orwellian named “Fairness/localism doctrine,” SOPA/ACTA/PIPA and except for Fox and talk radio, simply use intellectual brownshirts to shove all others who disagree out of the conversation. Time Magazine or NYTimes, anyone? “Bonhoeffer warned that if the church should ever substitute one Lord for another, if the cross of Christ was replaced my any other cross, the Gospel would be betrayed and the church judged.” Today, the cross and gospel is being replaced, even in many churches, with social “gospel” (before I stopped going to church as a teenager, I literally only recall hearing sermons about Vietnam – there was obviously more, but that’s literally all I can recall).
Metaxes talked about depravity apart from God’s grace – but of course the Obama administration clearly thinks salvation lies in the state. Depravity of man? Not anything we can’t deal with with yet another czar! Other comments border on the Alice in Wonderland, such as Obama “defended his administration’s measures reigning in financial institutions, insurance companies, and “unscrupulous lenders.” Who in tarnation is he talking about? Jon Corzine, who has been let off the hook after stealing $1.2 billion in private funds? Franklin Raines, another leftist at Fannie who walked off with just a bit less? George Kaiser, who got bailed out before the bond holders who should have been before him at Solyndra? Eric Holder, who has not only perjured himself, but left people actually dead? “Linking arms with faith-based groups” is another howler. Think of the Catholic groups in various states who can no longer do adoption services, and Obama denies their right of conscience to not do gay adoptions. Think of various denominationally based hospitals being forced to do abortions and day-after pills. Maybe we should think of “Rev.” Jeremiah Wright’s church as what he really believe in – for that is where he sat for 20 years.
Worst of all was his hackneyed misused of “I believe God’s command to love your neighbor as yourself,” the president said. “I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper” and “speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.” Would that he would do that. God’s command was for ME, not the STATE, to love my neighbor as myself. I didn’t know the state actually “loved” anyone, and whatever “compassion” it might show is inefficient and impersonal. As a matter of fact, I can do one thousand times more, with a million times more love, for 1% of the money than his nanny state full of crooks, corruptocrats, cronies and unelected czars could even dream of doing. Moreover, if he wants to love his neighbor as himself, perhaps Michelle could have given up her $400k/yr do-nothing job at U. of Chicago Hospital, or they could give up just a couple more uber-vacations or rounds of golf per year. Perhaps he could go help in the massive tent cities HIS policies have created all over this country. Perhaps he could donate the cost of just one vacation the help drop the record number 46 MILLION people his policies put on food stamps just a small fraction. Perhaps – before spending TRILLIONS on the fraud of global warming he could listen to the 31,486 scientist signatures, including 9,029 with Ph.Ds, disagreeing with anthropogenic global warming (the minimum qualifier to be on the petition is a BA in a field related to climate change.). For given the TRILLONS spent on this non-issue, many, many people will die.
Finally, Mr. Obama has the temerity to say “I think to myself, am I willing … to give up some of the tax breaks I enjoy?” he said. “It coincides with Jesus’ teaching, ‘To whom much is given, much is required.” I suggest he start with cutting back just ONE vacation and ONE round of golf per year. Moreover, even if the rich were to pay 100% of their taxes – forgetting the fact that that money might now not be invested in things like factories, startups like Apple, etc., the fact is that – thanks to his socialism, this wouldn’t even make a minor dent in our problem.
The reality is that Mr. Obama is a Fabian socialist, and using religion is just part of the Alinskyian game. As Hitler, head of the National Socialist Workers’ Party told the German church, as long as it stayed in inside its walls, it could do what it wanted. It just dare not go outside the walls of the church, or claim God was sovereign over the state (the early Christians has the exact same issue). And if Mr. Obama had listened, or knew his history, he might have realized that it was Bonhoeffer – whose name Metaxes was invoking – was the one who spoke out against the apotheosis of the state.
It was interesting that Obama “forgot” the book Metaxes gave him. One wonders if it were a book on golfing if it would have been left behind.
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Xion – From the little I do know of what Bonhoeffer said about his work as a double agent, he undersood that as a Christian, he would answer to God for his all actions of good or ill. The rights and wrongs of all that even we as Christians do in this world are not always clear to us.
Even the Bible, with its honest portrayal of the moral ambiguity of Rahab’s lie or Judah’s incest or Ehud’s assassination of the Moabite king, does not provide all the answers of how God viewed these sinful actions that His people took in order to accomplish ultimate good. We only know that God worked all these things together for good.
We have all been or will be in situations of moral ambiguity, where we have perhaps made or will make a choice which we knew was wrong but saw no other option. We all have to trust that the grace of God in Jesus Christ will cover all our sins.
BTW, to compare the actions of an individual pastor, who published a book about costly grace in 1937, four years before he joined the Abwher, to the actions of a world leader with a sworn responsibility to uphold the laws of his land, is a bit of a stretch.
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Revision to #62: The sentence “The Bible… does not provide all the answers of how God viewed these sinful actions that His people took in order to accomplish ultimate good” would be better written, “The Bible… does not provide the right actions that would be alternatives to these sinful actions that His people took in order to accomplish ultimate good.”
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#62 Phos, I do not condemn Bonhoeffer, but regard him as a having lived a noble life and died a noble death. A soldier who does his job well and dies in the line of duty is living out his faith. No greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends or his country.
However, I do not believe that the Bible speaks with moral ambiguity. Assassinating people is not a mission of the church. Jesus said that if his kingdom were of this world, then would his servants fight. The church has to do with the next world, which will continue on into eternity.
You see, there are two kingdoms. We live on earth and are to do good works and even die for others, but that is not our ultimate purpose. It is no one’s ultimate purpose. The Kingdom of Heaven is what matters.
Obama talks about taking from the rich and giving to the poor and fancies himself noble in the eyes of God. But paying off the poor for cheap political gain with other people’s money is not noble in the eyes of God. It costs Obama nothing. He already has his reward.
Jesus could have solved poverty and disease with a blink of his eye, but he did not. He provided a few lunches, but the real food was the bread from heaven. The social gospel is nothing like the actual gospel. I wish Bonhoeffer would have focused on the latter more, but I do not fault him. He was a great man, far greater than I.
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To put it succinctly, Our lives are not about ourselves or what we have accomplished. True and eternal life is about Christ and what he accomplished.
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XION, when you sharply distinguish the Two Kingdoms to the point that Bonhoefer was not justified in attempting to assassinate Hitler, you have fallen into the trap of cheap grace.
Bonhoeffer was offered a position at the American Union Seminary in order to protect him from Hitler. He was sorely tempted by this but understood that costly grace required him to return to Germany and suffer with his people, a decision that in the end cost him his life.
The truth is that when one doesn’t engage the forces of evil in the world, one is involved in cheap grace. Just now Christians are being forcefully attacked by radical secularism and Islamism. The worst thing a serious Christian could do is not to intelligently engage these forces, hiding behind some Two Kingdoms theory.
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#66 Sails, You are saying two different things. Christians should engage radical secularism and Islamism with the truth of the gospel. That’s quite different than going around assassinating people.
I do not judge Bonhoeffer. I am glad people were trying to kill Hitler. There were a number of his top generals who were complicit in the coup. Look at all the lives they would have saved. What I am saying is that killing people is not a mission of the church. What an individual does it between him and God. But compare that with what Luther accomplished with words. The pen is mightier than the sword.
Also, Bonhoeffer’s concept of cheap and costly grace is misleading. Christ’s grace was costly, period. It is how we value His grace and what we do in response that matters. I believe that is how Bonhoeffer originally meant it, but it seems to get lost in translation.
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The Word of God talked about giving to the Church to help people and the spreading of the Gospel not giving to the Government to grow Grovernment Program
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Xion: That’s quite different than going around assassinating people.
I’m certainly not arguing that any Christian should go around assassinating people. However, Bonhoeffer was confronting radical evil; therefore, he was justified both as a Christian and German citizen in joining a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.
Bonhoeffer, as well as Luther and Calvin, well understood the limitations of strict Two Kingdoms doctrinal theory.
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“…he was justified both as a Christian and German citizen in joining a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.”
Got any scripture to back that up? Of all the activities a pastor should be busy with, I don’t see assassination listed. Jesus did not advocate the assassination of Caesar who slaughtered many. With the blink of an eye he could have been dispatched. Instead, God used the Roman army to create the diaspora of his own people according to prophecy. Perhaps God was using Hitler to bring them back to their land and Bonhoeffer was just getting in the way.
Pastors should busy themselves with the shepherding of souls, not bomb making.
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Metaxas closely related Wilburforce’s fight against the slave trade and Bonhoeffer’s resistance to Naziism WITH today’s courageious opposition against abortion and the defense of Christian sexxuality and Christian notions of sexuality.
The implication that defending traditional marriage & family today is just as ethical and necessary today as the fight against slavery and the nazis was yesterday. I agree.
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XION, your post at #47 was pathetic.
XION wrote; “It is not the mission of the church to assassinate people and I loathe his attempt to coin the term ‘costly grace’ in this manner.”
XION, it is the mission of the church to toally ignore it when a mass murderer is slaughtering millions and committing genocide. Jesus dies and rose again so that Christians could avoid controversy and pretend that we care about human sufferring.
Sarcasm off.
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XION wrote; “I view Bonhoeffer as a great man who gave his life for what he believe in. Who can find fault with that?”
At #47, you just did, XION. Stop pretending otherwise.
Bonhoeffer as a Christian did not think he had to choose BETWEEN working sacrificially on making this temporal world a better place, and preaching Christ who has the eternal answer.
Hey, Jesus ALSO thought he could heal & feed people and seek temporal improvements AND that he could preach the words of eternal life too!
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XION, Bonhoeffer was well aware that Hitler was involved in large scale slaughter of Jews and other groups of people. The Bible has numerous examples of justice done, including Jael driving the tent peg into Sisera’s temple. The Judeo-Christian tradition doesn’t necessarily play beanbag with its enemies.
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XION asked; “Which would have had a greater impact, dying for the public preaching against evil in the spirit of Martin Luther against overwhelming odds or secretly carrying a bomb to kill a bad guy?”
Bonhoeffer did both, XION. I recommend you study up on him before commenting unthoughtfully. Actually, he did NOT carry any bomb anywhere but he did know those who planned it for Hitler and after intense prayer and consideration, he supported their plans.
XION, we humans are not called to measure impact in the long run because that is God’s sovereign realm. We cannot always see or know the impact of our faithfulness. It can look bad or look good to us, others or the world. But like Bonhoeffer, we act to please God, not the world. We act in faithful obedience to Him humbly knowing that we cannot see all the ramifications of our impact. Christians act in the name of TRUTH, not consequences.
If there had been no real resistance to slavery and naziism by Christians, that would discredit us deeply and hurt our Christian witness eternally. And now if we do not see Christian opposition to the destruction of the family today, that will discredit us deeply and tear down our influence eternally.
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PHOS wrote; “I have to say that I have not read Bonhoeffer’s writings on this.”
Bonhoeffer’s writings are the best source, Phos, but I also read Mary Bosanquet’s excellent book, “The Life and Death of Dietrich Bonhoeffer,” and found it to be fantastic–perhaps the best bio I’ve ever read. I look forward to reading Metaxas soon.
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Sails wrote; “I doubt that Christ regarded this as sinful.”
Fine post and I agree but I just wanted to add the paradoxical notion that Bonhoeffer himself (in great humility amid the agony of his considerations) did face the possibility that what he did would demand his repentance. Indeed, he believed his worst option–which he did not take– was to do nothing, but in NOT taking the worst option on his plate, he did not presume that the better option (to support the assassination attempt; a lesser evil than doing nothing) would still call for his repentance. It’s tough reading but some of the deepest practical theology I’ve ever read.
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Sails, you have nailed it. In my opinion, Xion is hiding behind a too sharply distinguished Two-Kingdoms theory. The Kingdom teaching of Jesus included much overlap with the temporal world and it’s struggles and aspects. Like Jesus himself, the kingdom of God engages this world as well as the next.
Xion, I think, is also hiding behind a cliché’ about the mission of the church not being to assassinate people (which no one said it was in those terms)–which Xion is treating as a mantra on this thread. The mission of the church is mirrored in the mission of Jesus who came to the world to engage with it, love the lost, protect children (strongly implied in Matthew 18), heal diseases, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, clothe the naked and reconcile men to God.
Look at how Jesus defined His mission in Luke 4. There is no stark separation of two kingdoms in Jesus’ view of his mission in Luke 4:18-19. Referring to his own calling, Jesus quoted Isaiah:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
(Luke 4:18-19)
The mission of the church is to follow Jesus. Bonhoeffer as a Christian did just that, in my view.
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Let’s see…
Liberals are fine with our President killing American citizens with Hellfire missiles and some Christians are fine with pastors who plot to kill heads of state with bombs.
Oddly, both groups are enraged by a libertarian position which opposes such things.
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@47 Xion, excellent post.
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Heaven does take priority over the things of this earth for Christians. But it creeps toward the ancient heresy of gnosticism to separate these concerns too starkly. Christians must stand between the cheaply distorted extremes of the social gospel on one side and gnostic isolation on the other.
Xion wrote; “Jesus could have solved poverty and disease with a blink of his eye, but he did not.”
Agreed, but he clearly did actively care for the poor on earth, he fed them, healed them and told us to carry on that outreach (not the gov’t but us, his followers).
Xion can disagree, but I see in his comments approaching the gnostic side. Just my imprtession from his posts. I look forward to him speaking for himself on this thread.
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Joel Mark, thanks. I understand the idea that hard as it is for any Christian, reality may on rare occasion necessitate a lesser evil. I understand that military chaplains use this thought when trying to comfort warriors who often feel serious guilt when killing enemies on the battlefield
Thanks, also, for the recommendation of the Bosanquet biography of Bonhoeffer that I intend to read. Having read Metaxas’s biography, I expect that you will enjoy that also.
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Xion, the Libertarian position, as you present it, does not care about human suffering or about people. It cares ONLY about theory and extreme ideology that cannot adjust to anything, not even the horror of Hitler.
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Debra, we differ very radically but I am glad you get your say here.
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Joel Mark: Xion can disagree, but I see in his comments approaching the gnostic side.
My sense of XION is that he’s coming from the Anabaptist, quietest side that tends to want to withdraw from the evil world rather than engaging it. Ron Paul has the same tendency. This is similar to gnosticism, though without the intellectual arrogance.
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Good point, Sails, although I have known some in the Anabaptist or Mennonite tradition who were intellectually arrogant and extremely judgmental against those who believe in just war. But that’s anecdotal. I generally respect those traditions and agree with you.
And I presume nothing regarding Xion’s background nor do I see any arrogance in him. I should not have used the word “gonstic” personally for him but just to refer to an excessively stark separation between the two kingdoms (earth and heaven). Gnostics put a huge wedge between flesh and spirit. There are differences and the NT does distinguish them, but the gnostics drove the distinction farther than was ever intended or practical.
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Things eternal do come first and are more tied to our mission as Christians than things earthly. But being first does not mean I cannot apply, like Bonhoeffer, ML King Jr, James Dobson, Churck Colson and others, those first principles to many concerns and people this side of heaven, including active engagement in politics, or police work, or military service, family friendly programs, the arts, athletics, or humanitarian work. When politicans institutionalize sin, Christians shold have something to say and do about it, here on planet earth, because we care. I especially admire the political, ethical and social work of church-belonging Christians like Wilberforce, Bonhoeffer, James Dobson and Chuck Colson!
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#85 Sails “My sense of XION is that he’s coming from the Anabaptist, quietest side that tends to want to withdraw from the evil world rather than engaging it. “
Sheesh! Where’s the love? How many thousands of times do I need to repeat that I am not saying Christians should disengage from the world? Jesus commanded us to be engaged in this world, but he didn’t mean bomb making.
Rather that all the name calling and saying how pathetic I am and cries of heresy and accusations of Gnosticism and all the other straw men, I would respectfully ask Joel and Sails to explain why it is a proper role for a pastor or church to make bombs and try to kill heads of state. Scriptural support would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much, beloved brethren.
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Thanks again Joel Mark. Like you, I like and respect Xion, though I do have a fundamental disagreement with him. He is obviously a devout and quite articulate Christian. He, also,has a nice sense of humor.
I am most impressed with this WorldMag Blog that somehow successfully allows serious Christians for the most part to civilly disagree with one another. I hope to stay with this blog and make a small contribution to it.
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It’s a tricky thing for the church leadership—particularly a pastor or bishop—to actively participate in espionage even for a good cause.
Civil disobedience or other non-violent resistance such as Cory Ten Boom participated is more understandable because these activities are not bearing the sword. But planning bombings is much more problematic. Undoubtedly God does call people to perform those kinds of soldiering duties,(even Roman soldiers were praised for their faith) but I cannot find anywhere scripturaly where the leadership of the church is called to such activities.
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XION, believe me, We can disagree on issues and even speculate on basic assumptions with the love and respect still real. Truth is, I pay careful attention to you whom I know to be a devout Christian with considerable biblical knowledge.
On the issue of Bonhoeffer, I tried to answer your questions at 66, 69, and 74. I guess at this point we shall have to agree to disagree and root for the Pats tomorrow.
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LOUISE 21
I wondered the same thing about the Billy Graham letter and if Obama knew ahead of time about it.
It seems Obama wants everyone to know that he too was welcomed and prayed over by Billy Graham like Presidents of the past. But Obama turned it into a “me” thing when he began talking about how he prayed over Graham.
Obama seemed to choose his words carefully which makes me think he added stuff not on the teleprompter.
I am hopeful that something in the visit with Graham had an impact on Obama.
Someone should ask Michelle what she thought about the visit with Graham. Does anyone ever ask her about her faith?
It always seems like Obama is trying to keep up appearances as a Christian for political reasons without losing his identity as a Muslim.
The next 4 years are going to be interesting.
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#90 Debra, Thank you for understanding my point. Acting for one’s life and country is one thing. Doing things in the name of Christ is another.
#91 Sails, I love you and our conversations and my brother Joel too. This is why I think we can do better than just agreeing to disagree. Iron sharpens iron. Learning is a hard road, but we can learn together.
There is something important here that makes Christians uneasy. The same occurs when we discuss the failings of Luther and Calvin. We are imperfect people used by God to accomplish his perfect will. It is OK that we are imperfect in relation to Christ. But let us not begin to stain Christ’s name with our imperfections. Let us rather basque in his glory and leave our filthy rags behind.
Solomon explained it best, “All is vanity under the sun”. The temporal, secular, mundane world moves one way in the morning and another way at night. Vanity of vanities. What gives life meaning is that which is above the sun, namely spiritual matters which live on into eternity.
Jesus called the cares and affairs of this life Thorns which choke the Word. He said to not seek the things Gentiles seek, i.e. getting caught up in the rat race. He gave those who followed him a lunch or two, but continuously emphasized how perishable the things of this life are and to seek the bread from heaven and the water of life. As Paul said, think on heavenly things. Seek those things which are above.
What the officers involved in the Valkyrie Operation said is that they did it out of love for country. Hitler was not Germany and so they wanted to save Germany from his evil. Fine. But why drag Christ’s name through this mud? You don’t have to be Christian to make a bomb. It has nothing to do with Christianity. What would Jesus have done? He would have preached, of course.
Contrast what Bonhoeffer did with Brother Andrew’s life, who smuggled Bibles and preached to the most evil of men, his life hanging in the balance. He visited Muslim terrorists in prison. Later these men asked him to preach to them in the heart of Gaza.
And so, I can praise the men of Valkyrie, including Bonhoeffer for a secular operation, and at the same time fault Bonhoeffer for attaching Christ’s name to it.
Hitler was declared Lord of the German Church. There was also a spiritual war going on. Should German pastors have chosen rather to fight that war for the hearts and souls of the people rather than take up arms? Is not the pen mightier than the sword?
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:33
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Thanks XION, I see your point, though still think that even a Christian pastor, given the radical evil of a Hitler who would not brook any critical pen or word, did the right thing in involving himself with the Valkyrie operation.
He quite understood the guilt that he took upon himself, as the following from his book, Ethics indicates:
when a man takes guilt upon himself in responsibility, he imputes his guilt to himself and no one else. He answers for it…Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace.
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One reason so many Jews died during the Holocaust is because the world did not know. The world was in darkness and so where were good Christians who would bring this truth to light?
The officers involved in the Valkyrie operation certainly knew since some were part of his inner circle. Did Bonhoeffer know? Could his talents not have been used better to run an operation dedicated to exposing this to the world?
Valkyrie was a secret operation, run in secret and failed in secret and the perpetrators were executed in secret. Would the outcome have been different if the light of God’s truth were able to dispel the darkness?
I started reading Metaxas’ book on Bonhoeffer and he makes the point that Bonhoeffer’s actions were unknown until after the war. When the world was ready to heal, Bonhoeffer’s story helped people see that all Germans weren’t complicit in the evil. But the war was over at that point.
I study Hebrew at a local synagogue and they are holding a 10 week series of seminars on Shoah (Holocaust). Yad Vashem (literally Hand of God) is the Holocaust museum in Israel. They have refused to honor Bonhoeffer with the title of “Righteous Gentile” because,
In other words, Bonhoeffer chose to act in secret. Christians are called to bring light to this world, not to hide it under a bushel. We are to confront evil boldly with the truth. This is the opposite of being disengaged. Let us engage, but in a way that exemplifies Christ.
Christians also need to face the truth that our heroes are imperfect. Luther had an anti-Semetic streak and Bonhoeffer spoke in a Lutheran way at times concerning the Jews who refused to convert. Calvin had his imperfections and Augustine and Paul and Peter and so on. It is OK. But let us not pretend otherwise in an effort to defend their every action. It is OK to make mistakes, but let us not pretend that they were otherwise.
Bonhoeffer was a great Christian and I don’t mean to diminish his great life and faith in any way. But he was not right about everything and bomb making is not a good model of the Christian faith. It is not what Christ would have done.
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XION, you’ll learn soon through Metaxas that in the early and middle thirties Bonhoeffer through the Confessing Church openly opposed the Nazis, especially their extreme anti-Semitism. The Confessing Church itself was founded in opposition to the Lutheran Church, which found a way to support the Nazi regime.
Theologically, he viewed Christianity as having superseded Judaism and that in the end the Jews must accept Christ. It is this view that the Jews abominate, not his so called secret opposition. See a decent short article on this by Elihai Braun including:
The opponents of Nazi interference in Church affairs formed the “Confessing Church,” and some members, including Bonhoeffer, advocated open resistance against Nazism. The more moderate Protestants made what they saw as necessary compromises to retain their clerical authority despite expanding Nazi control. But under increasing Gestapo scrutiny, the Confessing Church was soon immobilized.
Bonhoeffer returned to Germany to teach at Finkenwalde, a Confessing Church seminary, where he continued to train clergy for the Confessing Church. But the official church barred his students from taking its clerical posts. In August 1937, the regime announced the Himmler Decree, which declared the training and examination of Confessing ministry candidates illegal. Finkenwalde was closed in September 1937; some of Bonhoeffer’s students were arrested.
So, Bonhoeffer became involved in covert Abwehr activity only after he made a courageous attempt at openly opposing Hitler, something that in the end cost his life. Would that any of us could show such courage in a similar situation.
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Sails,
If you read my previous reference you will see that it wasn’t because Bonhoeffer believed that “Christianity superseded Judaism” or that “Jews must accept Christ” that offended Jews. Jews understand this and are not offended by it. They are happy for Christian help which is why they honor it. What disqualified him was that he resisted in private, but in public supported some of the initial anti-Jewish measures.
Corrie ten Boom, on the other hand, was honored by Yad Vashem as a “Righteous Gentile” in 1967 specifically because she acted in concert with her religious beliefs. The ten Boom family were members of the Dutch Reformed Church, which openly protested Nazi persecution of Jews as an injustice to fellow human beings and an affront to divine authority.
Looking at the issue objectively then, can you see how speaking the truth and mobilizing the church to shine brightly in the darkness would have been better than fomenting secret plots. Assassinating people in secret is what our President does. I would expect more from a pastor.
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XION: What disqualified him was that he resisted in private, but in public supported some of the initial anti-Jewish measures.
Could you give us specific backup for the assertion that Bonhoeffer resisted in private but publicly supported some of the anti-Jewish measures. Neither the biography of Bethpage nor that of Metaxas -that I’ve read- make such an assertion.
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#98 Sails – I would like to see that myself and will try to track it down. My reference merely provides Yad Vashem’s reasons for disqualifying him, but does not provide the back up data.
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“Apart from God we cannot see that they are persons as well,” he said.
I rest my case. The personhood of the fetus can’t be detected without ESP.
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JR #61: Metaxes talked about depravity apart from God’s grace – but of course the Obama administration clearly thinks salvation lies in the state.
You lost me here. Is this mindreading on your part or has the Obama administration expressed this thought in words?
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Scroop Moth you may rest your case, though in doing so you badly miistate that of Metaxas who in this part of his address clearly spoke with compassion for the unborn through looking at them, as it were, through the eyes of their Maker. Sorry to rain on your malevolent parade.
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#101 JR – “…the Obama administration clearly thinks salvation lies in the state.”
Scroop – “You lost me here. Is this mindreading on your part or has the Obama administration expressed this thought in words.”
Obama talks about collective salvation all the time:
He repeated these same words in many speeches, such as at:
Knox College, Galesburg IL, June 4, 2005
Pritzker School of Medicine, Chicago IL, June 10, 2005
Southern Illinois University of Medicine, Springfield IL, May 20, 2006
Northwestern University, Evanston IL, June 16, 2006
Xavier University, New Orleans LA, August 11, 2006
Wesleyan University, Middletown CT, May 25, 2008
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1. “Collective salvation” is not equivalent to “salvation lies in the state.” Obama’s language allows salvation to lie outside the state, although for some that could indeed be a life inside “government of the people by the people and for the people.” Salvation lay within the state for my brother in law, who devoted and risked his life for the administration of law. Service to the state was his service to society and to a purpose above his own personal well-being. But everybody doesn’t need to work for government. There’s also a distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions for personal salvation.
2. The quotation comes from a commencement address that Obama used to give before he became president. He wasn’t telling the graduates to enter politics, but to work on behalf of community. Based on Obama’s other writings, I’m sure he was alluding to MLK’s idea of community.
3. You can’t give a quotation of President Obama or his administration saying, “salvation lies within the state.” The man deserves not to have Evangelicals stuffing their dirty words in his mouth.
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For me the beauty of personhood is that it can be apprehended by ordinary perception and understanding, and thus universally shared. So I’m not surprised that Metaxas can’t see it in a fetus without divine intervention.
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Despite Bonhoeffer’s failed attempt to end the war early, WWII played itself out to the bitter end and good ultimately triumphed over evil, perhaps for the last time on the world stage.
Evil which failed to come through the front door is having quite an easy time of it coming through the back. Practically every decision made by the US government these days is bad for America and will only get worse. People who advocate socialism and fascism have become popular. Communists hold the highest office. Baby killing is all the rage and anyone who attempts to cut its funding will be demonized. Success has become a dirty word.
The media gives evil a free ride and demonizes anything that attempts to hinder it. The Prince of the Power of the Air is doing very well. The church will continue to diminish in influence and liberty will continue to be squashed by progressives.
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YES, THE TRUTH. I only wish this speech had full press coverage in ALL the news media !
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#105, “personhood… can be apprehended by ordinary perception and understanding, and thus universally shared.”
Yes, you are right Scroop! History agrees with you too!
Obviously, Black people have the mark of Cain upon them, and thus are clearly not persons, and we really must go back to counting them as 3/5 of a person.
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Scroopmoth: For me the beauty of personhood is that it can be apprehended by ordinary perception and understanding, and thus universally shared. So I’m not surprised that Metaxas can’t see it in a fetus without divine intervention.
For me, the beauty of personhood is the beauty of personhood. It goes so much deeper than what people can apprehend by ordinary perception and understanding. And it does take divine intervention to perceive that deep beauty, whether in someone seemingly kind, someone physically beautiful, someone simple in mind, someone weathered and wise or someone just beginning to grow and live. It’s sad to me to think you miss that mysterious beauty, and that you would relegate a tiny soul to not worthy, in your estimation, of personhood.
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