Losing liberty
“Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?”—Thomas Jefferson
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government—lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”—Patrick Henry
Liberty is always tenuous. Those who enjoy it seem to be a minority in the world. That’s why liberty must not only be preserved by those who currently benefit from it; it must also be fought for and constantly renewed for future generations, because there are always those who wish to restrict or eliminate our freedoms.
The Obama administration’s ham-fisted attempt to require that contraceptives and abortifacients be offered to employees of Catholic and other religious institutions is a serious threat to our civil liberties. Yes, federal (through EEOC oversight) and state governments already play this role and have for a time. According to the Guttmacher Institute, “Some 28 states have mandated coverage of birth control and 20 of those have some sort of exemption for religious employers.” New York and California are among the 28. But do we really want government to continue to take the place of individual conscience? Should government continue to dictate to its citizens how to order and conduct their lives?
But wait. Didn’t President Obama give in to the concerns of Roman Catholic bishops by excusing Catholic institutions from paying for contraceptives and “morning-after” pills for their employees? Not exactly. The president disingenuously shifted the burden to insurance companies, which have now been ordered to offer the pills “free” to any employee who wants them.
Nothing is “free.” The cost will eventually be added to the price of the policies, which the employer will wind up paying for anyway. The cost will then be passed along to the employee.
The bishops weren’t fooled. After initially expressing “cautious optimism” over the administration’s “first step in the right direction,” they issued a statement, reports The Wall Street Journal, saying they still have “serious moral concerns” and cannot support the announced compromise, despite the fact that many thousands of religious institutions will be exempted from the mandate.
This issue was always about more than contraceptives and who pays for them. It is about individual liberty and whether the government under “Obamacare” has the constitutional right to dictate to private businesses and church-related entities when such orders violate conscience and religious beliefs. Would the administration also order a conscientious objector to engage in combat? It’s the same principle.
If the administration can get away with this, there will be no stopping it. If government can force an insurance company or institution to pay for a birth-control pill or a morning-after pill, it can, under the same authority, conceivably force them to pay for a euthanasia pill for those others have deemed unfit to live.
Too extreme? Most inhumanities begin with extremes. What is to stop the government from such behavior? If the Constitution’s protection of religious freedom is to be annulled, along with the already voided “endowed” right to life written into the Declaration of Independence, by what moral or legal authority can anyone stop government from doing anything? This is more than a slippery slope; this is an avalanche and it threatens our most fundamental rights, without which we morph into something other than the America we have known.
Responding to the president’s remarks in which he pulled back on his insurance company mandate, Amy Ridenour, chair of the National Center for Public Policy Research, weighing in on the cost of providing contraceptive benefits, said, “Here’s the problem: The ’savings’ substantially comes from pregnancy avoidance. That’s what religious-based opponents of the birth control/early abortifacient mandate objected to in the first place.”
There are two possible remedies: A decision expected this spring by the Supreme Court that Obamacare is unconstitutional, or a complete repeal of the healthcare law, which would require a Republican Congress and a Republican president.
What other liberties does the Obama administration want to subvert? In his Super Bowl Sunday interview with NBC’s Matt Lauer, President Obama appeared to complain about the Founding Fathers, whom he suggested, “… designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change that I would like sometimes.” It’s called the separation of powers, Mr. President, and it was created to protect the nation from a dictatorial executive branch.
© 2012 Tribune Media Services Inc.

















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“Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?”—Thomas Jefferson










back to top82 Comments to “Losing liberty”
Good. A column on World about liberty. It’s an important subject.
Cal writes, “The Obama administration’s ham-fisted attempt…“.
Oh good grief! Where was Cal Thomas–where were all these folks–back when W was around? Sheesh.
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#1 MacRutabaga
“Oh good grief! Where was Cal Thomas–where were all these folks–back when W was around? Sheesh.”
What, exactly, did W do that was anywhere near what Obama and ObamaCare are doing?
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I thought this often during the torture and indefinite detention debates, when Republicans were loudly proclaiming that only American citizens had rights which were granted to them by our Constitution.
This is a far more fundamental threat to our God-given liberty than some extra regulations about which people and what conditions insurance companies are required to cover.
To his credit, Obama has stopped the torture. To his discredit, he has not stopped the indefinite detention.
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“Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?”—Thomas Jefferson
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How dare Thomas Jefferson mention God. Did he not know in 2012 the United States of American Government would become Godless… in their endless war on the Christian Faith,.
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Wow. Do people really not see the gross inconsistency? When we want to indefinitely detain or torture Arabic people, then it’s our Constitution which grants certain freedoms to American citizens, and other nationals do not share those freedoms. Many on this board explicitly argued this. Rights are granted by the State, not by God.
But when we want to oppose some government regulations, then break out the Founders’ quotes about God-given liberty.
“Where were you?” indeed. Where are you now?
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“… designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change that I would like sometimes.”
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Mr. Obama has again reveal he does not like the Founder Father of this nation views of Government.
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Rights are granted by the State, not by God.
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The Founding Father’s believe other wise.
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JJF: To his credit, Obama has stopped the torture.
First, the CIA during the Bush administration stayed well within the American and Geneva Convention law on torture. That it did otherwise is a leftist myth.
Second, Obama doesn’t bother with aggressive interrogation of militant Islamists. He simply kills them on the battlefield with drone missiles.
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To push the comparison further, let me point out that Jefferson wrote those lines in his memoir Notes from the State of Virginia about slavery.
In other words, he was reflecting on our awful treatment of “the least among us,” those people who really didn’t deserve the rights we had just fought to secure for everyone else. The defenders of slavery had all kinds of sophisticated arguments why those basic rights didn’t really apply to the slaves. Jefferson saw right through that.
And now come our modern-day slavery apologists with their justifications about why certain people really don’t deserve the rights that are just for American citizens, etc, etc, etc.
But guvmint reguhlashun! Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEEEEAAAATH!
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JJF: Rights are granted by the State, not by God.
Thomas Jefferson: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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No. They did not. Quite simply and plainly, they did not.
Our foreign allies realized it. Our own generals tasked with investigated our prisons realized it. (Look up the comments of General Taguba).
Repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.
I need to leave now, because this is a subject on which I cannot remain civil. To think that Christians who are to represent Christ to the world have become the defenders of torture.
But then many defended slavery, too, so maybe I shouldn’t be so surprised.
Still. It makes me mad. So I’d better just go.
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JJF, come off the faux histrionics. For an incisive statement of the legality of terrorist interrogation by the CIA under Bush have a look at Mark Thiessen’s Washington Post article including:
The CIA created a well-run, highly disciplined interrogation and detention regime, where clear guidelines were established, the safety of the detainees was ensured, invaluable intelligence was uncovered and any deviations from approved techniques were stopped, reported and addressed. Now the special prosecutor assigned by Holder to investigate that regime has affirmed — once again — that this program operated completely within the law.
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“Nothing is “free.” The cost will eventually be added to the price of the policies, which the employer will wind up paying for anyway. The cost will then be passed along to the employee.”
I can bear witness to that. This year, my premiums would have jumped 35 per cent if I had stayed with my previous coverage. Obviously I couldn’t afford it, so I had to drop down three teirs until the premiums were comparable with last year’s…
On average the policies my agent represents increased by 20% this year. It is my considered opinion that most of that is due to the Obama[doesNot]Care bill.
Anyone who has proposed, supported, or voted for this horrendous bill is, in my opinion, considerably diminished in intelligence…
Yeah… I just said it. YOU’RE STUPID!
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Sails – The left will never listen to the truth.
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Thomas Jefferson: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Far from the idea of today that Rights are granted by the State, not by God
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“…President Obama appeared to complain about the Founding Fathers, whom he suggested, “… designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change that I would like sometimes.”
Unbelievable….. this president is a Chavez wannabe… He should be impeached just for thinking this, not to mention saying it out loud. What a constitutional moron.
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MM the problem is there are many people in our Nation today, who believes the way he does. They are a product of the endless assualt on the views of the Founding Fathers.
This assualt has been coming from the “Higher” Education System that has taken control of our School Education Ststem. From the Courts where Judges are looking to other Nations or the Culture to rule against or false miss interp the Constitution.. In their rulings.
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MacRutabaga and jjf,
Kep up the good work, you guys.
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Pastor Roy (7) and Sails (10),
When jjf wrote at (5), “Rights are granted by the State, not by God,” he wasn’t taking that position himself, but he was clearly mocking the de facto argument of torture supporters:
And he’s exactly right.
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I do not at all agree that the reasonable and essential measures of inhanced interrogation (of known terrorists who we also knew had essential knowledge) is the same as “torture.” In fact, the Bush policies ARE what led to the killing of bin Laden and (in my view) to an effective legacy of stopping the spread of terrorism WITHOUT compromising any significant real life liberties. I did not buy into the hysterical politicized hype that rose out of mindless Bush-loathing.
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JJF wrote; “When we want to indefinitely detain or torture Arabic people, then it’s our Constitution which grants certain freedoms to American citizens, and other nationals do not share those freedoms.”
1. It is dishonest to claim that we want to “indefinitely detain or torture Arabic people.” That some of the known mass-murderers we had in custody were Arabic was not pertinent to our policy with such known mass-murderers.
2. And we did not support torture but legitimate enhanced interrogation. Quibble all you want over semantics but I do not have to buy the twisted terms of leftists and angry politicized ideologues.
3. God ordains nations with a particular sphere of authority. Our Founding documents are for American citizens and they are rooted in the conviction that God endows rights and liberties. Many other nations deprive its people (and want to deprive us too) of what God endowed to them. We are not obliged to nor do we have the authority to grant them what God endowed to them but what their own leaders are depriving them of. We have Founding documents that recognize divine endowment of rights and liberties and we want this to serve as an example for the world to follow but we cannot apply or enforce EVERYONE on earth to comply with its terms or share in its benefits. But we can legitimately attempt to help some get closer to that principle.
It is central to the definition of America that rights are granted by the God and not the state.
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President Obama wants cavities and tooth decay to abound and flourish in America. He has been in office for over 3 years now and has still NEVER found a way use tax-payer funds to provide for toothbrushes and toothpaste for all disadvantaged Americans. How heartless and uncaring can you get?!?!?!
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The Democrat Party is posturing that Republicans are anti-women because we do not support the use of tax-payer money to pay for constraceptives for all women to get for free whenever they want. No Republican has tried to restrict constraceptive access or use in any way but we still get pilloried by the left-stream media as anti-women. This is how Democrats and leftist have successfully lied for decades. And Americans fall for it.
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our Constitution which grants certain freedoms to American citizens
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Last, I look those capture on the battle field were not American citizens.
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Accusing Bush of “torture” is just another politicized falsehood that Democrats promoted and repeated often enough to deceive gullible people. But if a Democrat leader just drops bombs and kills with drones and benefits from the enhanced interrogation techniques that helped him find an evil leader and then just takes out that leader, the left-stream media could not care less.
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Joel Mark & Pastor Roy: Even Ezra and Nehemiah admitted when their country did wrong. Waterboarding is torture, because it inflicts physical suffering in order to gain information. And not all of the detainees were captured on the battlefield. Consider the case of the Uighurs, captured and turned over to the US army by unscrupulous bounty hunters: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/23/AR2005082301362_pf.html
Even now, six years later, most of these men are atill without a country.
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Frank, at 19, while human rights stem ultimately from God, they are not absolute, something well established in the law.
In the case of the present legally established war, we have every right to both kill the enemy and to aggressively interrogate unlawful enemy combatants. Free speech doesn’t apply if one improperly yells “fire” in a crowded theater, nor does a militant Islamic terrorist have any right to normal American judicial protections.
Like Ron Paul and his hard-leftist allies, your views on these issues rather lack nuance.
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Phos at 26: Waterboarding is torture, because it inflicts physical suffering in order to gain information.
Not really, after years of trying to prove that CIA interrogators “tortured” unlawful enemy combatants, even the Obama administration has given up. Mark Thiessen in a careful researched book,Courting Disaster, amply proves that the interrogations were within the law.
In a Washington Post article, Thiessen remarked as follows:
Well, no. It would be illegal for a foreign adversary to waterboard a U.S. soldier, even if the technique did not amount to torture. American troops are lawful combatants. They wear uniforms or distinctive insignia, follow a clear chain of command, do not hide among innocent civilians, and do not target innocent men, women and children. Because they follow the laws of war, when captured they receive full privileges as Prisoners of War under the Geneva Conventions — which means it would be illegal for their captors to coerce them in any way, much less waterboard them.
Terrorists, by contrast, are unlawful combatants. They do not wear uniforms or distinctive insignia, or follow a clear chain of command. Not only do they hide among innocent civilians, their primary means of attacking us is to target innocent men, women and children for death. Because they violate the laws of war, they do not receive the privileges that a lawful combatant receives as a POW under Geneva. As a result of their own choices, the United States may lawfully coerce them to provide information about imminent terrorist attacks.
He further points out that the sort of waterboarding that the CIA used was well within American law and the Geneva Conventions rules.
The truth is you don’t know what you are talking about on this issue.
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Sails your quote only justifies the use of waterboarding it does not offer an opinion whether or not its torture. In fact, by stating waterboarding is not permissible under the Geneva Convention more or less admits its torture. He okays waterboarding because the captives are “unlawful combatants”.
That reminds me: Joel Mark;
And we did not support torture but legitimate enhanced interrogation. Quibble all you want over semantics but I do not have to buy the twisted terms of leftists and angry politicized ideologues
Actually its Bush and company who invented terms and quiblled over semantics when they devised terms such as illegal comnbatants and enhanced interogrations
Finally Japanese soldiers were persecuted for war crimes – torture in WWII when they waterboarded American soldiers. Christopher Hitchens a strong supporter of Bush’s policies said after he himself was waterboarded, This is torture.
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Sails – The left has label it as torture, for some that is all the matters.
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Sails @28: The definition of torture is: “the action or practice of inflicting sever pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion.” OED Therefore, waterboarding is torture. That the detainees were not lawful combatants under the Geneva Convention and therefore could be waterboarded is merely a legal dodge, based on a technicality. One may be perfectly legal in one’s proceedings without being in the least moral.
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Actually, the form of water boarding that the CIA used was well within the definition of American law that torture involved lasting physical and mental damage to a person. In fact the CIA was hyper aware of the possibility of liberal criticism of their practice and made sure whenever it was practiced a physician was present. Tens of thousands of American military men and women have been through even worse water-boarding in preparation for becoming illegally treated as prisoners of war;
Bear in mind that unlawful enemy combatant prisoners do not have the same protection of uniformed prisoners; further, that after vigorous investigation the Holder Justice department investigation concluded that no American or Geneva Convention law was broken.
The truth is that the notion that Bush “tortured” prisoners is a generic myth of the Left that has been thoroughly disproven by any dispassionate analysis.
Americans need to wake up to the fact that we are in fateful war with this irregular Islamic Jihadist enemy and that the evasions of the Paleo-Paulian right and the pacifist right are exceedingly naive and dangerous.
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Doesn’t really matter what is required of this law or not, no one will be able to afford it anyway.
My wife’s company offers health care to their employees and families. The average wage for an employee at her company is < $10 per hour. The monthly cost of health insurance for the employee and their family is $1,200. You do the math.
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Excuse me, I meant to say in the last sentence above …the pacifist Left…
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The issue here is not about torture, it is about Mr. Obama desire to grab power.
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It is about this idea of Mr. Obama that our“… designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change that I would like sometimes.”
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So how’d we get off onto torture? You guys wanna get back on topic? OR does the left just wanna distract from the main topic, ’cause they know their man is way off base?
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Make it Man – I am waiting for someone to run ad’s against Mr. Obama using those comment’s
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Should you want to know how the thread got hijacked on the subject of “torture” see Frank in Spokane at # 19, where he spoke of supposed de facto argument of “torture” supporters. Any conservative with cojones of necessity would respond to this.
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Sails — 32 — I already acknowledged that it may be considered legally however that matters not since this doesn’t resolve whether or not its torture. And whether the damage is lasting — and if the water-boarding takes place often and over a long time it will be — it matters not. One could give mild electronic shocks over a period of time without lasting damage but its still torture.
As for the original issue, the US model of providing health insurance through employers guarantees that there will be conflicts between the moral beliefs of employer and employees. Perhaps a different model of health care provision should be considered — single payer anyone. Take the moral questions out of the hands of the employer and give it to every individual.
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Responding to Cal’s use of this Jefferson quote:
A few of us commented on the irony that the very people now talking about how our liberties are granted by God were, not that long ago, arguing that rights are granted by one’s State (or its Constitution), hence foreign nationals didn’t have them.
Let me get this straight…
If the government says that you must purchase a health insurance plan for your employees that covers their contraceptives, well that’s a violation of your God given liberty!
But if the government decides your 15 year old son is a threat, abducts him in the middle of the night, ships him to an undisclosed facility, holds him for 6 years with no charges and no contact with his family, subjects him to stress positions, open-handed slaps (used because they cause no “lasting harm”), isolation, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, sexual humiliation, threats of dog mauling, and waterboarding… well, that’s no violation of his God-granted rights, because a Bush speech writer did a very thorough review and concluded all that was legal!
Jefferson again:
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How about the decorated and highly regarded Major General that the Army tasked with investigating prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib? Is he dispassionate enough?
Because he said Abu Ghraib was evidence of “systemic and illegal abuse” that went all the way to the top.
And “any dispassionate analysis”? That’s an impossibly broad claim you’ve made there, Sails. On what basis do you say it? Because there is widespread international consensus that America has tortured prisoners. Are they not “dispassionate,” either?
I get the sense that “dispassionate” means “agrees with me,” in the same way a Planned Parenthood counselor might tell young women that “any dispassionate analysis” would agree that her baby is not a person.
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Sails (39): Should you want to know how the thread got hijacked on the subject of “torture” see Frank in Spokane at # 19, where he spoke of supposed de facto argument of “torture” supporters.
Frank: Umm … no.
It was jjf at (3) and (5).
To which you replied at (10).
Scroll up and see for yourself.
Not blaming jjf. Just credit where credit is due.
Because he’s right.
Sails (39): Any conservative with cojones of necessity would respond to this.
Frank: And that’s just silly!
Fact is, it take zero cojones to speak in defense of torture/enhanced interrogation if you profess to be a conservative!
It actually takes stones to condemn it if you’re a conservative, because to do so goes contrary to the anti-terror-at-all-costs “conservative” narrative.
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JJF, On Abu Ghraib, a far more reliable analyst than the leftist ideologue, Hersh, is Jeffrey Addicott of St. Mary’s University School of Law who wrote the following after a careful review of the literature:
The investigative Reports and the convictions of the nine soldiers have done a great service to the American people and the world by dispelling the shrill cries of those who blame a secret Pentagon “culture of permissiveness,” for the abuses at Abu Ghraib. While the Schlesinger Report found institutional and even personal responsibility in the tactical chain of command for allowing conditions for abuse to occur at Abu Ghraib, the Report specifically found that “[n]o approved procedures called for or allowed the kinds of abuse that in fact occurred. There is no evidence of a policy of abuse promulgated by senior officials or military authorities.”
America’s fundamental values have been translated into well-rooted rules of law at the cost of untold blood and treasure. Hope remains that the attendant sacrifices in the War on Terror will not be overshadowed by the inexcusable conduct of the few at Abu Ghraib. Indeed, as long as the military maintains its policy of transparency – as it did in the Abu Ghraib abuse case – the nation will understand.
On the matter of CIA interrogations both Attorney Generals Mukasey and Holder authorized independent DOJ investigations of alleged CIA “torture” interrogation that cleared the CIA interrogators. Again, the whole issue of CIA “torture” is a generic myth of the Left. Those who take time to study the issue fairly, end up exonerating the CIA.
Frank, at 43, my apologies for not going back beyond 19 to discover JJF as the fellow that first brought up the “torture” issue.
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JJF @41 Good point.
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Ed Whelan, president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, co-authored an excellent op-ed in today’s WSJ in which he references the the Religious Freedom Restoration Act:
The HHS Contraception Mandate vs. the Religious Freedom Restoration Act–Introduction
http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/289341/hhs-contraception-mandate-vs-religious-freedom-restoration-act-introduction-ed-wh
http://www.eppc.org/default.asp
The birth-control mandate violates both statutory law and the Constitution. The fact that the administration promulgated it so flippantly, without seriously engaging on these issues, underscores how little it cares about either.
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The birth-control mandate violates both statutory law and the Constitution.
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Many of Mr. Obama views and items he has pushed or is pushing violates both statutory law and the Constitution. The Problem is we have an AG in HOlder who does not care for the COnstitution Him self.
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HRW says: ‘Perhaps a different model of health care provision should be considered — single payer anyone. Take the moral questions out of the hands of the employer and give it to every individual.’
Your single payer system gives the decision to the Feds not to individuals. I think that we need to in fact give it back to the individuals and untie it from employers. But giving it to the gummit, I believe, would be much worse.
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Bringing up the issue of torture in a thread about Mr. Obama trying to grab religious liberty is a playground tactic that is unbecoming to this serious subject. (”He bullied me.” “Well, you were mean to Joe three days ago.” “Uh uh.” “Uh huh.”) We’re talking about religious freedom being taken away from the American public, and you’re using playground tactics.
Am I saying torture is a playground subject? No. It’s a serious subject, and deserves a serious discussion of its own. But to bring it in here (”Well, YOUR president detained people and permitted waterboarding!”) is to trivialize a subject that is extremely serious and deserves attention.
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ClayVessel, you are exactly right, which is why I posted at 46 in hopes of getting back on topic.
This is what liberals do: Change the subject and attack. And it’s difficult not to get sucked into their phony arguments.
If it weren’t for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all.
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Clay Vessel: Except that in the context it was raised, it was right on-point — that the conservative-Christian view of what is and isn’t a God-given right and what isn’t is badly skewed.
I understand you would prefer not to face that fact, but JJF made a really good point, not off-topic at all. And it’s not a change of subject, Louise. It’s a valid question: Why do some folks get passionate about the right of an employer to deny contraceptive coverage in health insurance, while ahrugging off torture and abuse as simply a matter of legal definition?
The line of subsequent posts defending it on legal grounds just made JJF’s point for him. That’s exactly what he was getting at. People SHOULD be passionately defending the God-given right of human beings to not be tortured, but many on your side of things said well, if we can find a lawyer or judge to say it’s legal, then it’s ok. But ask a religious employer to provide coverage for contraception? That’s an unacceptable violation of freedom of religion!
I think the moral compass is off about a hundred degrees.
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But ask a religious employer to provide coverage for contraception? That’s an unacceptable violation of freedom of religion!
Well, it is. And it’s not “ask,” it’s force.
By my reading–and JJF can correct me if I’m wrong–JJF’s allusion to God-given rights was tangential to the larger point that conservatives do not give the same pass to O as they did to W regarding civil liberties. Confusing the source of Rights is a part of the dodge.
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fuzzy — single payer doesn’t give control to the gov’t. The gov’t offers the medical procedure and im free to turn it down. if the gov’t doesn’t offer it im free to purchase it on the open market. im still in control and no employer needs to compromise his/her morals or my morals.
Interesting development; the Blunt amendment would allow employer to claim an exemption for any medical claim that offends their sense of morals
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/republican-plan-give-bosses-moral-control-health-insurance
thus the employer health insurance model allows the corporation to control morality. I say offer it for free and allow each individual to decide. Saying that individuals should be left to purchase it doesn’t solve the access problem.
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But how does that help? Under your plan now it is many taxpayers that are forced to pay for something that they think is morally wrong. The only difference is the organization is bigger and more of a bully. It is much harder to go elsewhere to avoid the punishment of being forced to go against your moral convictions.
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You still haven’t shown why contraception should be an insurance issue at all. (or at lease in all but under some extreme medical situations.)
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Taxpayers pay for things against their moral principles especially if they don’t support the ruling party. Right now I pay taxes so my conservative gov’t can build more jails, buy fighter jets, etc all of which go against my principles. Religious pacifists like Quakers and Mennonites pay taxes some of which support the military. Its the price of belonging to a society.
55 — I actually don’t care one way or the other in reference to whether contraception should be covered, however, the pill does have other purposes. And other forms of contraception, eg condoms, are not covered because its strictly for contraception.
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So? Are you saying you are arguing just to argue? Maybe that’s why you makes no sense.
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Clay Vessel: Except that in the context it was raised, it was right on-point — that the conservative-Christian view of what is and isn’t a God-given right and what isn’t is badly skewed.
The point of this discussion should be the government forcing religious institutions to go against their beliefs, not only because it is the subject of the article being discussed but because it is a serious and deserving topic. I don’t care if people on this thread fell into JJF’s diversion, giving legal arguments against what he said. Whether or not what Mr. Bush did to suspected enemy combatants honored their “God-given” legal rights is another discussion. And, btw, you have no idea what I think about the subject. It might surprise you. But I won’t discuss it here.
Because right now, I am extremely concerned that, for the first time that I remember, a president of the United States gave a mandate that directly ordered religious institutions and individual businessmen to go against their religious conscience.
I’m guessing that, since you’d rather discuss the inconsistencies in the thought processes of Conservative Christians, you don’t care about what Mr. Obama did. I wish you’d tell us why, instead of changing the subject to the faults of conservative Christians.
Would you, for instance, have such a Cavalier attitude about ordering Jewish community centers to serve ham sandwiches? Or is that another topic that would pale next to the chance to point out what you see as the inconsistencies in conservative Christianity?
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I will get this italics thing right some day – that first paragraph should have been:
Conan: Except that in the context it was raised, it was right on-point — that the conservative-Christian view of what is and isn’t a God-given right and what isn’t is badly skewed.
and then the rest should have been in regular type.
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clayvessel (58): Because right now, I am extremely concerned that, for the first time that I remember, a president of the United States gave a mandate that directly ordered religious institutions and individual businessmen to go against their religious conscience.
Frank: The conflict between the civil magistrate and peoples’ consciences is nothing new. (Indeed, it goes back to biblical times.) And it’s certainly not new in the US of A.
While some of the details are different in this particular case, the principles at issue are the same.
Consider a hobby horse of mine: Conscription. Biblically speaking, no man should be compelled by the State to kill if it is contrary to his conscience (Romans 14:23).
Even for a just cause. (It still violates his conscience.)
And even if he voluntarily joined the military. (Mens’ moral convictions can change over time. Circumstances can change over time.)
Sorry if some consider this a diversion from the topic. I don’t think it is.
Clayvessel said, “[A] president of the United States gave a mandate that directly ordered religious institutions and individual businessmen to go against their religious conscience.” Like I said, the principles are the same, just the details are different.
It could be the legislature, a judge, or even a popular vote, mandating that individuals go against their religious conscience.
Why is it worrisome here, but not in the case of compelled military servitude?
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Frank in Spokane, to me, your topic IS on topic. I always think of this aspect, when I think of the HHS mandate. I’ve often thought of true conscientious objectors having to pay taxes for the government to wage war. I don’t know what the answers are. It is my opinion that a government should militarily protect its citizens. But that’s where we get into another topic.
Let me ask you this, Frank – aren’t you concerned about this (second?) reach of the government into religious freedom?
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#3 jjf
@jjf
“To his credit, Obama has stopped the torture. To his discredit, he has not stopped the indefinite detention. ”
I suppose you think his drone assassinations are so much better than indefinite detention. Do you support execution for captured terrorists? Do you think every enemy combatant has miranda rights and needs to be read them? Obviously, you think indefinite is wrong because you have a better solution right?
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#60 Frank in Spokane
#61 clayvessel
@Frank in Spokane
@clayvessel
“Why is it worrisome here, but not in the case of compelled military servitude?”
Because if we are invaded and a capable person is drafted and refuses military service they are living like a leech; off the blood of those who actually do serve.*
With Obama’s mandate that everyone pay for condoms, birth pill, and abortions no such equivalent can be made to justify compulsory funding. Seriously, what moral argument can you make that can justify forcing me to pay for some college kid’s condom supply? Note, forcing me to pay for every kid’s condom supply (Obama’s free condoms for everyone) doesn’t significantly alter the question.
*Obviously there are just and unjust wars, but compelled military service is not apriori, abhorrent and unjust.
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I don’t see the military question your way, tearfang, but we’ll just have to disagree.
To me, the point is the government attempting to force people/religious institutions to do something against their religious beliefs. And I do hope Conan and Frank answer my question: Aren’t you concerned about this mandate demanding church institutions and businesses to go against their beliefs?
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Fuzzyface — given that Frank asked basically the same question I did, I do think I make sense.
Clayvessel — I believe Frank (and I) have answered the question. Although mandating contraception coverage may compromise religious beliefs, conscription and mandatory taxation to pay for the world’s largest military is equally offensive to Quakers, Mennonites, etc yet I don’t see the Republican party proposing legislation similar to the Blunt amendment allowing religious pacifists to withhold a portion of their taxes. Nor do I see a groundswell to exempt psychiatric services for Scientology employers. And I don’t expect to see it, simply because its far to inefficient to grant exemptions for different beliefs. This is the nature of a pluralistic society. You either take up Frank’s libertarianism and vote for Ron Paul or you take up my social democratic — both avoid it by making medical coverage individually based not employer based.
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Except providing national security is a basic purpose of a federal government. How is providing condoms and abortificants?
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HRW: Nor do I see a groundswell to exempt psychiatric services for Scientology employers
Thanks for your answer. It’s helping me understand more where you’re coming from, although you still have not answered my question.
My opinions:
Scientology employers or Scientology insurance execs should not have to offer their employees/customers psychiatric services. The federal government shouldn’t even be in the position to mandate them to do so. It is my opinion that, if this should come up, there would be a groundswell against it. Just as, if they mandated Jewish community centers and Muslim community centers to include ham sandwiches on their lunch menus, there would be a groundswell.
The military is more complicated, imo. I wouldn’t have any problem with Mennonites and Quakers being exempted from paying the percentage of taxes that go to the military. I’m not sure why they couldn’t be? When we had the draft, they were exempted. One difference is, if we were attacked by Iran, the Mennonites would be protected by the federal government, along with the rest of us. So it makes it a little less clear for me.
I do think militarily defending your citizens is one of the purposes of a central government. I don’t think providing everyone’s needs/desires, etc. is. To think we should provide birth control for every person is beyond ludicrous in my opinion. As a woman, the “women’s movement” is an embarrassment to me.
One doesn’t have to be either libertarian or social democratic to want religious freedom.
You’ve still not answered my question: Aren’t you concerned with a mandate demanding church institutions and business owners to go against their beliefs, and why?
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I meant to say, “props,” Fuzzyface, for #66
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And I should have added, “or why not?” at the end of my post.
There. my words are finished.
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@HRW
“both avoid it by making medical coverage individually based not employer based.” We can agree that individually purchased insurance is better than corporation based. I don’t support the single payer model as you suggest bc it would have almost every problem ObamaCare does plus lots of additional ones and you can bet there would be more arguments like this over what should be covered. But it doesn’t have to be this way. Given that we agree that individual is better than the employer model, does this mean you would support ending all federal mandates of employer based insurance and a revenue and tax rate neutral way of ending the government tax break to employers and slightly lowering everyone’s taxes? It would level the playing field and likely break the employer health care model. I can’t think of a more effective and just way to achieve such an end.
I am also curious like others to get your take on the central question here: Are the Obama mandates justified and if so what justifies them?
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@clayvessel
From reading your posts I think we both are against Obama’s mandate, but maybe for different reasons. I view this more as a generic freedom issue that is made especially abhorrent bc it is trampling over people’s religious beliefs, but I don’t think religious conscience objections and wavers is the best way to view the issue or handle it. I think the problems are bigger than that. I’m not catholic I have no moral issue with contraception, I do with abortion though. My understanding is that under your model of conscience wavers it would not be permissible to force me to pay for the abortions but it would be permissible to force me to pay for contraception. Of course from a practical standpoint I could lie and get the waver to both, now I wouldn’t actually lie, but I’m sure lot of people would. This is one of the practical problems I see with widespread conscience wavers for things like military (ignoring my previous moral argument), is that suddenly there would be a whole bunch of paper pacifists, and anything else that would save people money. In effect, my honesty would become an honesty tax. Interestingly, similar issues have led a lot of private sector employers to do away with dedicated sick leave and just grant a few more vacation days, but I digress. Perhaps of greater concern, is defining if my objection to abortion is a religious objection. I’m Christian does that make the objection religious? Can the government steal? Are there religious objections to theft, tax wavers too? If you actually can draw such lines for me it would go a long ways towards me accepting the waver model as a rational generic model.
I think there is a better way to view the issue. This is a generic liberty problem of the government trampling on people’s freedom of choice to buy and sell what they please. The government mandate a companies offer products free of charge, is a government with the power to destroy any and every business it so desires. It is not longer the government of limited enumerated powers that our constitution describes. By arguing for religious exceptions there seems to be an implicit acceptance of a legitimate government interest and power to mandate such things. As far as I see it this is giving up limited government. If the government really has the power to trample my liberty in the name of my health through Obama care, and only need worry about religious exceptions, then they can control the food I eat (as long as they give Jews a kosher exception. They can force me to exercise, and regulate, my stress inducing activities- truly nothing will be out of reach. The mandates may also have problems because they don’t offer religious exceptions, but in my mind this is their real problem.
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tearfang and clayvessel
I don’t think the current employer model works as its inconsistent, inefficient,limits employee mobility,etc. I support single payer as its in the national economic interest to have a healthy populace, not tied to one employer for health care, limited personal bankruptcies, lower household debt, less health care bureaucracy as opposed to care, etc.
As for mandating specific health care policies which may run counter to a religious institutions beliefs, I agree that that churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc should be exempt but not religious based corporations such as hospitals, etc. Once they begin to hire individuals who don’t share their religious ideas and/or engage in activities outside of the actual religious sacraments, they need to accommodate the pluralistic nature of modern society. If the US is going to continue to use an employer based health insurance model than the ability for each individual to make his/her health care choices without undue influence (include lack of monetary support) from the employer must be considered.
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clayvessel (61): … aren’t you concerned about this (second?) reach of the government into religious freedom?
Frank: Sorry for the late reply, but yes, I absolutely am concerned.
I think you’re relatively new here, so I’ll let you in on a little somethin’ about me:
I view it as sort of my “job” here on WMB to come and disabuse my fellow Bible-believing Christians of the “two-party” paradigm. To put it another way, I expect the left wing of the bird-of-prey known as the “two-party system” to spend my tax money growing government and attacking my liberty. It’s no more a surprise to me than to the rest of you.
And so to me it’s a waste of time chiming in about how bad the libs are. I prefer to point out when the right wing of that same bird of prey — you know, the guys who are ostensibly on our side — spends my tax money growing government and attacking my liberty. Because they’re the ones who claim to fight that kind of behavior.
I do this a lot. I’m a conservative (i.e. Bible-believing) Christian with a strong libertarian bent. (And I think I can back it up biblically.)
But a few of my fellow WMBers think I’m really a lib — a “leftist plant with a singular aim of dividing the right and Republicans.”
I don’t deny that I try to get my fellow Christians to think outside the “two-party” paradigm.
But I’m hardly a lib or leftist.
Hope that answers your question … blessings!
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cv,
See this 5-min. YouTube of Judge Andrew Napolitano — recently fired by Fox News — on the “Bipartisan Bird of Prey.”
You’ll get a real good idea of just where I’m coming from.
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@hrw
Awesome thanks for staking out your view. I agree with the sentiment in your last sentence that the best way is for “each individual to make his/her health care choices without undue influence (include lack of monetary support) from the employer must be considered”
I think Obama’s mandate does the exact opposite this though. Obama has now given me a mandate that says I have to pay for other people’s abortion and birth control pills. My individual choice has been obliterated. If I don’t like it and refuse to pay into mandatory insurance, the government will fine me. If I refuse to pay the fine, they’ll forcibly take it out of my bank account and probably throw me into jail. Without the mandate, I have several options if I don’t like the insurance option provided by my employer. I have options. I could get another job. I could self employ. I could stick with my current employer and buy insurance I like and see my tax break wasted This last option is kinda like the 1st option under Obama care bc now my tax dollars are subsidizing everyone else who has an employer plan they like, but at least other options exist. I should note that what I talked about in #70 would eliminate this subsidization, and single payer would not. A single payer would actually restrict choice even more than Obama’s mandates bc then instead of only then every provision and aspect of the health insurance would be mandated.
I’m still curious if you think private insurance w/o the tax break would be better than what we have now and why.
Also I’m curious why you think conscience exceptions are required for religious organizations (churches ect) but not religious individuals. Self employed business handy man or family run gas station ect.
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Frank in Spokane (60): Why is [government forcing individuals go against their religious conscience] worrisome here, but not in the case of compelled military servitude?
tearfang (63): Because if we are invaded and a capable person is drafted and refuses military service they are living like a leech; off the blood of those who actually do serve.
Frank: Your answer does not address the fundamental point:
By what moral standard may governments force
their citizensthe citizens they exist to serve to violate their own consciences?I think pacifism is morally flawed. But if another man cannot in good conscience take up arms against even the criminal attacker or the enemy invader, where does government get the moral authority to force him to violate his conscience?
Not from scripture, I can assure you.
That said, as re. your comment “if we are invaded …”, I’ll leave it to you to consider the actual historic contexts in which America resorted to conscription.
Not one “invasion” in there. (E.g., my Dad was drafted to serve in Korea.)
tearfang (63): Obviously there are just and unjust wars, but compelled military service is not apriori, abhorrent and unjust.
Frank: I think John Robbins, in his 1980 essay “The Bible and the Draft” (7-page PFD), makes a good case that it is. (Note particularly his arguments in 1 Samuel 8 and Deuteronomy 20.)
Where Caesar compels any person to violate his conscience in any matter, Caesar has set himself up as God.
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@Frank in Spokane
I think it does address the fundamental point. You asked why it was different, I provided a reason. If you think that reason in invalid pls say why. You agree that pacifism is morally flawed. Pacifist leeching is a form of theft. Pacifism is also a commitment to dereliction of duty, and an invitation for evil. If a father watches his daughter get raped in front of him and all the while has the opportunity to shoot the rapist but refuses to do so, then he guilty of dereliction of duty.
I’ll focus on theft. The government certainly has the power and duty to stop theft and thus the power to compel military service. Military protection is a necessary requirement for the existence and survival of a nation and its peoples. If a nation needs more soldiers than it has volunteers to defend itself a draft is a reasonable proposition. Pacifists enjoy the benefits of protection and survival and yet refuse to pay the necessary costs. That said from a practical standpoint I don’t want a pacifist or a coward standing next to me on the battle field, so I support and even encourage them to serve in non-combat roles.
I don’t think the origins and an exact accounting of the government’s moral authority is required for this topic. It enough to agree that
(1) Government has a right and duty to stop theft
(2) drafts are within government’s powers
(3) Pacifism is a flawed moral theory and form of theft
(4) The government’s authority to stop theft overrides any claim from a flawed conscience objection
(5) Therefore the government has the right to compel military for protection on pacifists and non-pacifists alike.
From previous posts #60 and your Caesar comment it seems like you object to (4). My question here is if someone’s conscience is so screwed up it tells them to steal don’t we still have an obligation to stop them? Or even more extreme, does say an ancient Aztec conscience demanding human sacrifice trump laws against murder?
It seems that you also object to (2) which is a separate discussion. But do you agree with the argument in form, e.g. if the premise can be shown to be true the conclusion also is true?
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On a separate note:
Your link didn’t work for me. 7 pages is a lot. Perhaps you can summarize the salient points? I’m also a bit unclear on the nature of your anti-draft argument. Are you saying that you consider (1) the bible to be authoritative and (2) the bible forbids a draft and therefore (3) you oppose a draft?
Or would you still oppose the draft even if you didn’t think the bible forbid it?
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tearfang,
Please don’t take this as curt or disrespectful, I just want to cut to the chase — i.e., the moral foundation for your argument.
Last first: Yes, I believe the Bible is God’s written will revealed to mankind — His image-bearers — and as such, it is not only authoritative, but ultimately authoritative. All men — even Caesar (the civil magistrate) must obey it.
So, now to back up a bit: A man’s conscience informs him — in light of his best understanding of God (or of ultimate morality and righteousness, if he “doesn’t believe in” God) — as to what he must and must not do. Therefore, for Caesar — the civil authority — to compel by threat of punishment that a pacifist — or even a non-pacifist who thinks a particular war is unjust — to violate his own conscience is to set the civil authority above God.
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/012a-TheBibleandtheDraft.pdf
That’s the link to the article. (Sorry, sometimes WMB does weird things to links.) These 7 pages are not a lot — they read very quickly. I encourage you to read them.
But I will also summarize them for you:
There is a biblical principle that opposes conscription that Robbins does not mention, which I learned from a my pastor several years ago: Personal ownership.
Man does not bear Caesar’s image, but God’s. Jesus taught, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, but unto God that which is God’s.” The clear implication is that there are some things that Caesar has no legitimate claim to. And Jesus’ demonstration of that principle — “Whose image does the coin bear?” — raises another question: Whose image does a man bear? The answer is God’s. Therefore, Caesar has no legitimate moral claim on a man’s labor or his life’s blood.
Caesar may claim my coins — they bear his image — but he may not claim me or my sons.
Lastly, I said pacifism is morally flawed, but not in the same way as is theft or adultery. The very conscience of the pacifist tells him that he must avoid violence, even in self-defense, just as the very conscience of the religious vegetarian tells him not to eat meat. They are both wrong — the Bible permits violence in self-defense, and eating meat. But it also clearly teaches that, if a man cannot do something with a clear conscience, to him it is sin.
Therefore Caesar — as God’s minister to punish evil and praise righteousness — has no authority to compel him to act against his conscience in any way.
In closing, I have two Qs for you:
1. Do you think the Bible is authoritative?
And in asking the second, I seek to correct your opening remark:
I didn’t ask why it was “different.”
I asked, “By what moral standard may governments force citizens to violate their own consciences?”
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… whew! So much for “cutting to the chase.” huh?!
To summarize:
God’s word teaches that:
1. pacifism is not theft; and
2. conscription is theft.
Therefore, I don’t think your claim that non-service is theft is sound. (You need to prove that which you assert.)
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Only one question from me, did Sean Hannity ever keep his promise to be water-boarded?
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Sorry, this is going to be a very long response. But in all fairness I’m not including 7 page links in my response :p
I think the best way to do this is a more in-line method starting with your summary.
Fank
God’s word teaches that:
1. pacifism is not theft; and
Tearfang
The bible does not speak on the issue of pacifism. Since you didn’t try to link pacifism to any bible passage, I’ll leave it at that, and not speculate if you meant to say something different.
In what way is pacifism morally flawed? Are there situations where following it causes one to sin?
Frank: 2. conscription is theft.
Tearfang
You haven’t convinced me. But acceptance of your interpretation of the bible would show the draft to be wrong. Showing the bible classifies it as theft is beyond the scope of arguments you have presented so far. Similarly, so far, I see no reasons given, for connecting the draft and theft.
I do, however, think there are good reasons to think that is it *not* theft.
I think we can agree that liberty is a right among others but no right is absolute. Various things impose duties on us that infringe on liberty that we must do anyways. A man who stands idle while his son drowns next to him in a 2 foot pool of water would be justly condemned. He had a duty to save his child even though it infringes on his right to liberty. Governments isn’t the source of rights, but it is the role and duty of governments to organize their protection from outside enemies; the common defense. Many consider this to be the most essential duty of government; for without it no other duties can be kept and liberty would not exist. Governments don’t’ fight wars soldiers do. If equally calling on people to become soldiers through the draft, can prevent destruction of everyone’s liberty then it is not theft of liberty, but the preservation of liberty.
Frank: You need to prove that which you assert.
Tearfang
If you were using prove in a mathematical sense then I’m afraid I’m going to disappoint in my mind more reason to believe than disbelieve is enough. I am aware that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. I find it hard to believe you completely missed my previous arguments describing the circumstances in which pacifism is theft and reasons why. But if you missed them it would explain your lack of response to them. Various arguments have been in each post on this thread since #63. ” they are living like a leech; off the blood of those who actually do serve” #77 explained it slightly differently but the connection to theft was the same idea.
The circumstances were set up to create a just draft which in turn creates an obligation to serve for those whom it covers.
You have not argued against the analogy. The 2 things you have argued against:
1. You argued that drafts are apriori unjust
2. You argued that a conscience objection trumps everything e.g. In order for a draft to do justice to a conscientious objector it would have to exempt them
I respond to those objections in other sections. I thought the leech analogy’s connection to theft was obvious… It is the same idea as all those bumper stickers after 9-11 saying “Freedom isn’t free” given a just draft, conscription is the price, or in the case of the analogy, blood. The bill comes due when you get called up to serve. Enjoying a good, freedom, and refusing to pay when the bill comes due, is commonly accepted as theft.
Frank: Do you think the Bible is authoritative?
Tearfang Yes; your distinction of ultimately authoritative seems odd; plain old authoritative covers all ppl, no? Is there more to your distinction?
Frank: I didn’t ask why it was “different.”
Tearfang
You did, in #60, which is what started this thread, and what I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion.
Frank: I asked, “By what moral standard…
Tearfang
I admit my response to that was a bit opaque. The sentence just before my numbered list was intended to address it. e.g. I don’t think it is relevant, my arguments were based on agreed upon moral axioms (like, theft == bad) and reasoning. Delving into the nature and ultimate source of morality, and how to escape Euthyphro dilemma, while a philosophical question of interest to me, would make this already long and slightly off topic thread preposterously long and very off topic imho. Perhaps it is enough to say I believe morality is objective, and think the bible’s teachings on morality presupposes it; though never explicitly teach morality to be objective.
Conscience
Frank: “But it also clearly teaches that, if a man cannot do something with a clear conscience, to him it is sin.”
Tearfang
I don’t dispute that. But that is *not* a conscience exemption. It is a conscience condemnation.
There is the don’t cause your brother to stumble stuff in the same passage which I think does provide rational for limited conscience exemptions. There is no exemption for evil. Indeed an exemption for evil would be absurd. Imagine is a murder exemption: oh, I though letting the innocent live would be evil so I had to kill them bc my conscience would condemn me if I didn’t…
The, don’t cause your brother to stumble conscience exemption principle, demands exemptions for otherwise non-moral choices e.g. eating or not eating, bacon, idol meat, vegetarianism etc. If there is nothing evil about refusing the draft, then I think it would require a conscience exemption to prevent it from causing people to sin. If it is theft then no conscience exemption can be allowed.
Frank: “to compel by threat of punishment …to violate his own conscience is to set the civil authority above God.”
Tearfang
I think there are plenty of counter examples to this. Maybe you are assuming conscience cannot be mistaken? Given all the sincerely held competing morals out there, some of them have to be mistaken. There is no exemption for evil. Murder, theft ect, must be punished even if the murder thought he’d sin if he didn’t do it. If you want a biblical reference: “Everyone did what was right in his own eyes”… and God judged them for the great evil they did. It is a very common theme especially in Judges and Chronicles.
bible verses
Deuteronomy 20
A list of exemptions from a requirement to fight presupposes a general rule of everyone being compelled. That sounds kinda like a universal draft. I’m not sure why you would bring this passage up as you are arguing against the draft…
Exemptions 1-3 seem irrelevant. That leaves the fourth: “Is there any man who is fearful and fainthearted? Let him go back to his house, lest he make the heart of his fellows melt like his own.”( Deut 20:8 ESV)
This amounts to a non-combat exemption for cowards. This doesn’t have anything to do with one’s conscience of the morality of a general draft per say. Note the explanation for the rule is given and it is a practical and not a moral concern. As such allowing cowards to serve in non-combat functions where courage is not needed seems to fit that practical concern. Such functions are common in modern times, but were rare in ancient times thus I can’t imagine it made sense to compel non-combat military service back then.
So I think this bible passage does make the case that forcing cowards to fight in combat is unwise. It does not really have anything to say about the morality of apriori compelled military service except that it assumed the Israelites were going to do it (before Israel had Kings) and set out some rules for it. If anything this would be a weak argument of tacit support from silence that this passage endorses universal compelled military service of men during war time, as good and moral or at least permissible, with the few listed exemptions.
1 Samuel 8
Actions not condemned
I disagree with your summary; it was not a list of the marks of unjust rule. It is a list of things the king would do that they wouldn’t like. Something doesn’t have to be evil to be a heavy burden to bear. The NT describes the Law as a heavy burden and good. It is far from clear that God is saying that a king ordained by God wouldn’t have the power to do such things. Indeed, taxes are on the list, yet Jesus tells the Jews to pay their taxes; render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. The NIV puts it like this: “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights” (1 Sam 8:11 NIV) It seems to me he was warning them that part of the deal with getting a king was giving the kings certain powers over them, and thus losing some liberty. God certainly thought it a bad deal, but he gave them a king not another judge. What powers did the king have? I’m going from memory here but I can’t think of any actual kings getting condemned for this stuff, it was usually following different gods and leading Israel astray.
process matters
Military conscription seems the most straight forward reading of what is described. The passage makes no mention of a lottery or random chance though. What is consistently emphasized is the king’s choice. This sounds like arbitrary military conscription at the king’s discretion, not a draft.
Render unto Caesar
Huh? God certainly claims ownership over his creation, but I don’t think that means what you think that means. If I understand your argument right then, it turns the traditional interpretation of this passage on its head. The point was that they had to pay both. Caesar had claim to their taxes *and* God had claim to their tithe. The Pharisees’ trap was to try and force Jesus to choose, he amazed them by showing them the legitimacy of both claims. Having obligations to God does not negate obligations to our fellow man or governments.
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