Marriage redefined: Implications
Only last Tuesday, a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 that California’s voter-approved Proposition 8—a state constitutional amendment that defined marriage as between a man and a woman—was unconstitutional.
Already it seems like old news, but the implications of marriage redefined are anything but old news. Left in the court decision’s wake are the implications of homosexual “marriage,” some of which are obvious.
A universal and divinely ordered institution, marriage also is legally recognized by the state. Marriage is a public legal act and the foundation that orders society, builds families, and supports the rearing of children. Marriage is a social contract between complementary sexes, and children greatly benefit from such unions. Generally, children living with their married, biological parents are physically safer and report better emotional health than children who don’t. They engage in fewer risky behaviors, including substance abuse and delinquency. They’re less likely to have premarital sex or to become pregnant out of wedlock.
Marriage is a relationship of opposites. In redefining it to include people of the same sex, marriage is rendered meaningless, and children are deprived of a normal family. Children from same-sex unions, begat through a known or unknown sperm donor or womb, are deprived of what they long for, even if they can’t articulate it: a mother and father, not two mothers or two fathers.
Allowing courts to redefine marriage as between two men or two women will lead to courts further expanding the definition of marriage. Do you think it’s silly to suggest homosexual “marriage” paves the way to legal recognition of polygamous and incestuous relationships? Not long ago, the mere thought of homosexuals openly declaring their behavior normal seemed just as ludicrous. Now they claim marriage is a civil right, a matter of equality.
Maggie Gallagher, president of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, wrote that once the equality principle is codified, “the next step will be to use the law to stigmatize, marginalize, and repress those who disagree with the government’s new views on marriage and sexual orientation.” Homosexuals have the same civil rights as everyone else, and restricting marriage to one man and one woman doesn’t deprive them of any. But as Gallagher notes, redefining marriage certainly will deprive us of ours.
Homosexuals argue that “marriage” between two men or two women is like interracial marriage. They attempt to co-opt the historic struggle to combat legal racial segregation. The two are not even close. Loving v. Virginia (1967) lifted the racial restriction on heterosexual marriage. Government segregation was about maintaining a subordinate class of citizens based on race, and no one can claim, with a straight face, that homosexuals in the United States are a subordinate class.
The implications of marriage redefined are neither harmless nor alarmist. They are tangible and happening right now. Christians should speak out loudly and often against this wholesale reordering of society while we still can. If we continue down this path, marriage will be meaningless.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top245 Comments to “Marriage redefined: Implications”
DEAR MS. BARBER:
Actually, for Straight (i.e. heterosexual) couples, marriage is NOT being redefined or changing in any way. Most people are Straight, always have been and always will be, and they will continue to date, get engaged, marry, and build lives and families together as they always have. Of course, Straight couples do not need to marry in order to have sex and makes babies, nor is the ability or even desire to make babies a prerequisite for obtaining a marriage license … but that’s beside the point. The fact remains that absolutely nothing is changing for Straight couples, and your marriage will not be affected in any way by the fact that the Gay couple down the street decides to get married also.
The marriage equality movement is nothing more than an acknowledgment that Gay people exist, and that from a purely Constitutional standpoint there is no reason to deny law-abiding, taxpaying Gay couples the exact same legal benefits and protections that Straight couples have always taken for granted.
Now, you might say, “I don’t care if Gay couples have the same legal rights as Straight couples, just don’t call it MARRIAGE!” But even if the legal designation for Gay couples was “civil union,” at the end of the day they would still CALL themselves married, and for all intents and purposes they would BE married, so what’s the difference?
Report comment to moderator
DEAR MS. BARBER:
Allow me to add one final observation about the case of Loving v. Virginia, which you mention. Yes, at one time it was the policy of the State of Virginia to tell people, “You have every right to marry, AS LONG as you marry someone of your own race.” Love really had nothing to do with it.
Today I often hear people on your side say to Gay people, “You have every right to marry, AS LONG as you marry someone the opposite sex.” Sure, it’s a line that guaranteed to get a chuckle in the Sean Hannity Comedy Club, but if you actually KNOW anyone who is Gay, you know how absurd such a suggestion is. You claim that “marriage is a relationship of opposites.” But for people who are Gay, that’s not a marriage at all. You should be smart enough to know that.
Report comment to moderator
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Report comment to moderator
Homosexuals argue that “marriage” between two men or two women is like interracial marriage. They attempt to co-opt the historic struggle to combat legal racial segregation. The two are not even close. Loving v. Virginia (1967) lifted the racial restriction on heterosexual marriage.
—
The problem with their arugment Loving v. Virginia (1967)broke marriage down to be between one man and one woman. It remvoed race from the issue, it promote the sex’s of the 2 people.
Report comment to moderator
Exodus 20:11-13
‘Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you
Report comment to moderator
Ephesians 6:1-3
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”
Report comment to moderator
For those who claim to be a Christian and believe God is ok with same sex marriage.. has a problem with the Word of God. All those passages are clear 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh
and “Honor your father and your mother.”
God does not support same sex marriage.
Report comment to moderator
We have fallen far if as a once Judeo-Christian culture we have fallen to the point where it is necessary to make a law stating the obvious… that a marriage is between a man and a woman.
Wow… I know homosexuality was a common feature of ancient pagan cultures, but does anyone know if they actually went so far as be have state sanctioned marriages of same sex relationships?
Report comment to moderator
At our weekend marriage retreat at The Cove in Asheville NC, the speaker noted how even in secular wedding ceremonies the bride’s father who presents her as a “gift” to his future son-inlaw is a representation of God the Almighty who approached Adam to present him with Eve. (”Eesh Mah Eeesh” for all you Hebrew scholars)
So God himself looked at the problem of man’s aloneness and provided THE (not A ) divine solution. I guess sin nature tells us that God in fact doesnt know or doesnt always know what’s best. As the car mechanics (and later Dixie Chicks) say “There’s your trouble!”
Can you imagine the pre-Incarnate Christ waking up Adam from the divine anesthesia? “Step over here boy, I got something here that’s gonna rock your world!!”
“Of course if you don’t feel attracted to her, meet Brucie!”
Report comment to moderator
Rob @6 You might take a look at the Family Code of Sodom, if you could find one that had been placed in a fireproof vault.
Report comment to moderator
#6 What I find most alarming is the rhetoric of the “homosexualist” viewpoint.
“Relax. Homosexuality is nothing new. In fact, the archaeological record indicates it was quite common and widely practices in the ancient world”
And your point would be..??
It does get back to a concept of normality. How many folks have to do X in modern society for X to be accepted as a norm? Just because something can be done and is widely done will alone never make it desirable or good.
Report comment to moderator
I’ve heard this that may help describe our situation…
Sweden is considered to be the most unreligious country in the world, while India is considered the most religious one. And America is a nation of Indians governed by Swedes.
Report comment to moderator
Good verses Pastor Roy…
Report comment to moderator
Drew – what those who claim to be christian do in order to promote same sex marriage is ok with God.
Is use the culture arugment, first. when that does not work..
they then try to aruge the greek word or hebrew words they are not the best words for those passages. when that does not work..
they then try to fit same sex marriage into the great commission, when that does not work..
when that does not work they throw out the old starwman arugment over divorce.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry let try this again
Drew – what those who claim to be Christian do in order to promote same sex marriage is ok with God.
THEY use the culture argument, first. when that does not work..
they then try to argue THAT the Greek word or Hebrew words , are not the best words for those passages. when that does not work..
they then try to fit same sex marriage into the great commission, when that does not work..
they throw out the old starwman argument over divorce.
Report comment to moderator
Drew – Since those who claim to be Christian know that God’s Word does not support their views and the the Christian Community has reject their views. They must find a way to discredit the Word of God, rewrite the Word of God, or rewrite Christian Histroy in order to prove their point.
Report comment to moderator
A couple who meet in Vegas and get married at a chapel 24 hours later are fine. A person who has been divorced and remarried three or four times and is getting married again, that’s fine. But two people of the same sex who have had a 20-year loving and faithful relationship, oh no, we can’t possibly let THEM get married. It would be a mockery of marriage!
I’m not sure how many times Pastor Roy has been divorced and remarried, but he goes to great lengths to justify it in flagrant contradiction of the words of Jesus Christ himself, and then accuses people who support same-sex marriage of “rewriting the Word of God.”
Report comment to moderator
Drew – I rest my case, with a the first comment by the left here on this site.
Report comment to moderator
2 Corinthians 5:16-18
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Report comment to moderator
Rob at six: I know homosexuality was a common feature of ancient pagan cultures, but does anyone know if they actually went so far as be have state sanctioned marriages of same sex relationships?
Apart from a few contemporary Western societies, no known society in history has allowed homosexual behavior or marriage, a few bizarre pagan rituals notwithstanding. Even in ancient Greece where a small number of the aristocratic elite practiced homosexuality, usually in the form of pederasty, Plato in his Laws strongly condemned homosexual behavior and forbade it in the Laws.
After the West either wakes up to its historical moral sexual standards or falls due to among other things sexual depravity, the world will return to better moral standards. The Judeo-Christian tradition condemns homosexual behavior in no uncertain, though it counsels compassion for those caught in the snares of this disorder of nature.
In America the issue will probably be settled by the Supreme Court, with Justice Kennedy making the decisive vote. Unfortunately Kennedy is a rather slim reed for we conservatives to rely on, though we may hope and pray.
Report comment to moderator
Excuse me in the above I meant to say ….no uncertain terms…,
Report comment to moderator
Conan: Head over to the Focus on the Family website (I only cite Focus because it’s prominent and Evangelical and, therefore, likely to be reflective of Evangelical thought in general) and tell me if you get the sense there that the Vegas wedding and multiple divorces are “fine.”
We have here a news item. It’s something that’s happening now; hence, people are talking about it. Many Christians oppose and lament no-fault divorce laws–and maybe they should be more vocal about it–but that discussion isn’t currently making its way through any courts, nor would any views about divorce negate espoused views on a separate topic.
Report comment to moderator
Sails – We know for a fact that the Roman Empire at one time was heavly involved in homosexuality as was many of the leaders of the Nazi Party
Report comment to moderator
My sister, a Political Science Professor at a major Public university, is proof of the slope. She is married and has one son. She is also bisexual and her female partner is part of her family structure. Two women and one man who are all “equal” partners in the raising of her child. It is ludicrous to believe that extending the definition of marriage will not destroy the institution, My sister is the professor training future policy makers, and she has already chosen to live based on the precedent that has been extended.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, at 15, the fact that all too many Christians indulge in what the Catholic Church properly regards the grave sin of divorce, hardly justifies homosexual marriage.
The Judeo-Christian Bible is clear enough in Genesis and elsewhere that marriage ought to be a one flesh union between a man and a woman in order, hopefully, that they complementarily may best bear and nurture children. Natural-law reason makes the same point.
Your argument that since legitimate heterosexual marriage has become corrupted, then why not homosexual marriage, is essentially corrupt in itself. Simply put, why do two wrongs equal a right?
Report comment to moderator
Pastor Roy: Sails – We know for a fact that the Roman Empire at one time was heavly involved in homosexuality
While homosexuality in Rome, as in Greece, was practiced by a few aristocratic aesthetes, it was generally condemned by the Lex Scantina. For a fine summary of this see the following from Christian Forums:
Even someone with a cursory knowledge of ancient history knows that sodomy was the exception and not the rule in both Rome and Greece, and overwhelmingly condemned as perversion. In the first place, it was more prevalent in Greece than Rome, but its prevalence in both societies coincided with the rise of decadence and the nearing of collapse. In the second place, there were no homosexuals as such but homosexual acts, yet even these were publicly scorned in Rome, where what homosexuality existed was mostly kept secret and usually described in texts of the time in Greek language as homosexuality was thought a Greek custom. Besides the fact that Roman life was male-centered to begin with and scorned all displays of male effimanacy, Roman males were allowed to freely consort with concubines and prostitutes without incurring social penalties or divorce actions: ie, whoring and priapism were all but officially encouraged. Further, the Lex Scantina officially made male homosexuality illegal.
You need to understand that the “gay” militants always attempt to prove that opposing homosexual behavior is declasse, not fit for civil discussion. These people are essentially making a case for sexual depravity and decadence in a way that could actually bring down the Judeo-Christian West.
Report comment to moderator
What Conan is refern to is that I have gone to great length to show that when someone who is divorce and remarried come to the saving grace of Christ. That per 2 Corinthians 5:16-18, when people come to Christ all part of their lives become new.
Now people like Conan love to bring it up here to try and discredit me.
Report comment to moderator
Paul: Two women and one man who are all “equal” partners in the raising of her child. It is ludicrous to believe that extending the definition of marriage will not destroy the institution, My sister is the professor training future policy makers, and she has already chosen to live based on the precedent that has been extended.
And what is the harm?
Is the boy suffering? Is he abused? Mistreated? Unloved?
Other than the fact that it doesn’t meet your standards for what’s acceptable, how is it hurting anyone?
Sails: Your argument that since legitimate heterosexual marriage has become corrupted, then why not homosexual marriage, is essentially corrupt in itself. Simply put, why do two wrongs equal a right?
In your calculus, the serial divorcer and the quick-wedders are, while not God’s ideal, much closer to it than are the sober, committed, long-term-proven same-sex couple.
That does not make sense to me.
Report comment to moderator
Pastor Roy: Because it’s germane. You find excuses for your own failings but are first in line to condemn others.
Report comment to moderator
Sails – It goes beyond the Judeo-Christian West it is an attempt by the enemy of God to trap people in sexual sins.
Report comment to moderator
You find excuses for your own failings
—
been married to the same woman for over 24 years…we have never been divorce. SO good try at a personal attack, but you missed your mark.
Report comment to moderator
Homosexuality is not a legislative issue it is a right in the sight of God issue. You cannot be gay and godly. There is little legislative ground to deny homosexual (or any other) unions, but I can say that your eternal future is damned if you embrace such a lifestyle. There is no wiggle room for that in scripture and THAT is the real rub. By establishing their position as a protected civil people group they pave the way for hate legislation that will limit the ability of pastors and teachers of the Bible to preach what the bible really tells us about homosexuality and salvation. It is an immutable part of scripture and in the end the laws will shift from limiting the lifestyle of a small minority of the ungodly to pacifying the truths of Biblical orthodoxy. You cannot legalize homosexuality without demonizing the Christian faith.
Report comment to moderator
You cannot legalize homosexuality without demonizing the Christian faith.
–
As we see, for some in our Nation, they are more then willing to do that.
Report comment to moderator
I can say that your eternal future is damned if you embrace such a lifestyle.
Why? God will forgive other sins and failings but not that one?
Report comment to moderator
Conan the Librarian: Sails: In your calculus, the serial divorcer and the quick-wedders are, while not God’s ideal, much closer to it than are the sober, committed, long-term-proven same-sex couple.
For a librarian, you have weak reading skill. My argument at 23 strongly criticized both divorce and homosexual marriage. Both are violations of the ideal of a life-long one flesh union between a man and a women in order to that they might complementarily bear and nurture children. Every child is best served by both a father and a mother,
As to your sober, committed, long-term-proven same-sex couple, I should suggest that you reflect on the following from Stanton Jones recent First Things article on homosexual relationships:
Even so, intriguing hints of differences, of “nonequivalency,” between heterosexual and homosexual couples emerge from Peplau and Fingerhut’s survey. They mention one large study that found that 28 percent of lesbians had had sex outside their primary relationship—comparable to the 21 percent of women in relationships with men and 26 percent of men in relationships with women. By contrast, 82 percent of gay men had had sex with someone other than their main partner. However one construes such a striking difference in sexual monogamy, whether as a trivial stylistic difference or as indicative of something fundamental and pervasive, such a finding seriously challenges the equivalency hypothesis.
.
Report comment to moderator
God will forgive other sins and failings but not that one?
–
God will forgive it, the person mus repent from the sexual sin and turn away from it , not embrace it.
Report comment to moderator
Pastor Roy, at 34, you’re right God forgives the sins of the truly repentant. He condemns those who in all too human rebellion against moral law attempt to make a virtue out of a vice, something with which the homosexual advocates on this blog are quite involved.
Report comment to moderator
Why? God will forgive other sins and failings but not that one?
That is somewhat of a misnomer….God does not forgive sins, Jesus atones them.. That is a STARK difference that you need to investigate further.
You have to accept Christ’s atonement before it will be imparted to you, but the only reason anyone would seek Christ is to be made right with God. It is a choice issue… Choose your way (and live with the eternal consequence) or seek God on His terms (Acceptance of Christ being the first step which opens the floodgates of what it means to truly live for and have a relationship with God).
The Homosexual agenda wants to redefine “acceptable” behavior. In the kingdom of God, that right is reserved solely for the Creator.
Report comment to moderator
Sails – What I find interesting, is when you ask those, who claim to be Christian, to back their view on same sex marriage by using God’s Word. The can not do it.
But when we do clearly show where our views are based on God’s Word. They go to great length to discredit those passage and us.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, the “quick marrier” is probably doing something stupid, but with every right to do it, just as I have every right to take a five thousand dollar inheritance or paycheck and spend it all on dark chocolate. No, they aren’t equivalents in terms of level of stupidity, but adults do have the right to make stupid decisions, even marriage. As long as they understand that marriage is forever, there is nothing to keep adults from marrying quickly, as long as the person marrying them consents to perform the ceremony.
And yes, I’m certainly more in favor of a person taking their one chance to marry and marrying without proper judgment than with their “marrying” someone they cannot marry–whether because one or both marriage partners is already married, because they’re related, because the parties are both the same sex, or even because the marrying person doesn’t want to marry a person at all but the family dog, whatever the situation. None of these is a legitimate marriage at all. The quick marriage is hasty and probably unwise, but it is a marriage (assuming it is consummated). Before the wedding, I’d strongly counsel caution; if the person comes to me two weeks after the wedding, crying about how bad it is, I’d be sympathetic but I would treat it as a “real” marriage, not one that can be ended, because it is.
And many of us are absolutely anti-divorce. It too makes a travesty of marriage. But you’re anti-divorce, right? You think it’s legitimate to be anti-divorce without being anti-homosexual relationship and yet one cannot be anti-homosexuality and think that divorce in some instances is acceptable–why is one some sort of hypocrisy and your own choose-one-immoral-option-to-accept stance is not? In other words, you think your hypothetical World blogger condones divorce (though most of us do not), but you seem to condone homosexuals marrying. Both stances are anti-marriage, but you defend yours. Why? Marriage is by definition–worldwide tradition since the beginning of the world–one man and one woman, yet you expect us to accept it just because our society, or segments of it, has decided it’s OK.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl – I know that we do disgree on the issue of when a divorce is ok and what happen when someone who is remarried and they come to Christ, on the status of that marriage….
I find my self wanting to bring hope to people in such marriage and the Lord has lead me to 2 Corinthians 5:16-18.. To bring such hope to them.
I myslef feel that divorce is to easy in our nation. That people jump to quickly into marriage and out of marriage.
Report comment to moderator
Sails: For a librarian, you have weak reading skill. My argument at 23 strongly criticized both divorce and homosexual marriage. Both are violations of the ideal of a life-long one flesh union between a man and a women in order to that they might complementarily bear and nurture children.
Sure. But by virtue of their being male and female, they are automatically closer to God’s ideal than the loving, longterm same-sex couple. You affirm this by implying here that bearing and nurturing children is the sole purpose of marriage.
But what if it’s not? What if that’s only one purpose of marriage, another purpose being to openly live a life of shared commitment to another adult’s well-being?
Report comment to moderator
If you are interested, there are several threads over at the Volokh on this case discussing the various legal approaches. You are focusing on the end result, not the words of that opinion. There’s a lot to work with there. This is NOT the done deal some of you seem to think it is.
Report comment to moderator
If a person with a lit cigarette hanging out of his mouth said, “Don’t smoke, son, it’s bad for you and could cause lung cancer,” would you say he must be wrong, or ignored, because he himself smokes?
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl: I’m not anti-divorce. I don’t think it’s a good thing, but I do think it’s a better thing than a lifetime of misery after making a bad choice of whom to marry (or having that person change into someone you never would have married had they been that way to start with.)
I do think people should take those vows seriously, yes. Divorce should not be an option for a person who is just bored or restless and wanting a change of life. But in some cases, yes, it’s a solution to a real problem and not my place to judge.
As for same-sex marriage, remember, I don’t believe one’s sexual orientation is a choice. People who are attracted to members of their own sex have just as much right to form a legally-recognized lifelong covenant as anyone, in my view.
Report comment to moderator
Paul Shepherd, That is somewhat of a misnomer….God does not forgive sins, Jesus atones them.
Indeed, when one says God forgives the sins of the truly repentant, Christ’s atoning part of the Triune God is predominant.
Report comment to moderator
Something can be one of several purposes, *and* the sine qua non at the same time…
Report comment to moderator
Sure Buzzy, but if we make the ability or desire to bear children the marker of a “real” marriage, then we’re excluding infertile couples, older couples (post menopause) and childless-by-choice couples right along with gays.
The anti-gay marriage people don’t want to do that, but if you make child-bearing the determiner, how can you avoid it?
Report comment to moderator
No we’re not excluding those couples, because the definition is based on the ability to reproduce, and the state’s interest has everything to do with the rearing of children; the definition will admittedly include some couples who do not, in fact, reproduce, and be somewhat overinclusive in that regard, but that is no reason to alter the definition. Your argument is as old as it is predictable, and it has been satisfactorily answered many times.
As for “legal recognition of a lifelong covenant,” why would it be limited to couples who have sex? Why not include lifelong same-sex platonic friendships, or mother-daughter pairs who raise a child/grandchild? Or … if it is to be based on sexual activity, why not be more honest and call it a civil union, since calling it marriage is an exercise in self-deception?
For anyone who wants to truly consider, with an open mind, the implications of re-defining marriage, consider the arguments made by the editors here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/245649/case-marriage-editors
Report comment to moderator
As for same-sex marriage, remember, I don’t believe one’s sexual orientation is a choice. People who are attracted to members of their own sex have just as much right to form a legally-recognized lifelong covenant as anyone, in my view.
They do. They can marry someone of the opposite sex. Remember, it is not the individual or his/her sexual preference that is at issue. The distinction being made by the state is a distinction between different types of relationships, not different types of people.
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy, well said in 47 and 48.
Conan, I think unrepentant adultery is “grounds” for divorce, but I don’t think divorce should be done casually. Marriage is a permanent union, as permanent as my arm joining my body. Technically it is possible to sever my arm from my body, but it is not done in the normal course of events.
Bearing children is clearly not the only reason for marriage; I myself married in the fall knowing I would never bear children. (I am stepping in as stepmother, and probably eventually grandmother, so this union does provide a full family and not only husband and wife, but not my own biological children.) But marriage does require male and female.
It’s odd to me that pretty much everyone thinks marriage turns around sex in some way (the two want to marry because of their attraction), and not, say, just two people who want to live together. Yet many fail to see the absurdity in seeing it as a sexual relationship and yet not limiting it to male and female, which is what it takes to make a sexual pairing. This really is self-evident, and it takes a blind people not to see it.
Report comment to moderator
“Sure. But by virtue of their being male and female, they are automatically closer to God’s ideal than the loving, longterm same-sex couple.”
Being male or female has no bearing on “being closer to God’s Ideal” or whatever confused argument you think you are making.
Males and females differ down to the chromosomes in each individual cell. Even Supreme Court Judge and Liberal darling, Sonia Sotomoyer somehow thought that being a wise “Latina” gave her some privileged insight into the law. Broad swaths of Academia are given over to the study of feminism, in recognition of the radical differences between the way men and women perceive and act in the world. Since men an women are fundamentally different, any relationship between men and women necessarily differs fundamentally from any relationship between two human beings on the same side of the binary sexual divide. To assert a problem of equality here is no more pertinent or appropriate to a comparison of same sex and opposite sex relationships than it is to assert equality between hamburgers and street lanterns.
Report comment to moderator
Inserting the concept of a “right to a legally-recognized lifelong covenant” (#43) lets the cat out of the bag. The state’s interest is not in making people feel good by legally recognizing their covenants, but on the needs of society (and thus the state) to help ensure a proper environment for the raising of children, without which society has no future.
Report comment to moderator
That homosexuality is only a modern problem does not ring true….
The canaanites were judged for homosexuality among other sexual sins such as bestiality. Sodom & Gomorrah was infamous for this sin. According to the Histories of Herodotus (one of the few primary sources of ancient history) seems to indicate the presence of this sin.
Even in our day, it is practiced rampantly in other non-western cultures such as Afghanistan (talk to anyone who has deployed there).
This is not to defend the practice, but to face reality that it has always been a problem since the fall and the concerning aspect in our culture is the growing demands that we not only tolerate the lifestyle but also accept it as a valid alternative.
This issue likely will become the flashpoint for increased persecution of the church in the west.
Report comment to moderator
Yeah, well, maybe it’s that forced homosexuality on boys in muslim countries that’s the real cause of all the violence these men perform.
I’m still waiting to see how far all you parents will let them take your children with their indoctrination.
Report comment to moderator
The truth is that the sexual “revolution” of the sixties and seventies that presaged high rates of divorce, adultery, fornication, and homosexuality has had a disastrous influence on our society.
Just now we are feeling the full impact of this revolution, with much depravity and decadence, though its foundation is badly cracked, and we have signs of a counter-revolution. This very thread would be one example.
Whenever, at the state level, people have had a chance to vote on the question of homosexual marriage, the people have decisively rejected it. Unfortunately, the courts in such states as Massachusetts have usurped the will of the people, and their politicians have found subterfuges to disallow any vote on the issue.
The homosexual lobby is feeling its oats of late due to the recent California court decision though in the long run serious Christians have reasonable faith that in long run in a moral cosmos the truth will find a way to rule.
Report comment to moderator
Hmm, I posted a comment but it didn’t show up. Buzzy said it better in 47 and 48 anyway.
Report comment to moderator
Oh, I see it had me in “offline mode” somehow. Oh well.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, do get it posted. Your thoughts are among the most valuable on this blog. “Oh well” doesn’t cut it.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, thanks. It ended up posting as 49, nothing profound. I just was somehow offline when I checked back later, and it didn’t show up. I was in the middle of something and didn’t have time to remember what I had said and rewrite it. But when I went to post what turned out to be 55, it told me I was “offline” and I realized that was the problem. My “oh well” was in regards to my post 55 that turned out to be untrue.
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy 47 – Thank you so much for the URL to the National Review article. This is far and away the best, most comprehensive statement I have seen on the subject. It doesn’t make moral pronouncements. It doesn’t even mention religion or God because it rightly sees traditional marriage as a “standard feature” of every successful culture in history.
I’m repeating the URL and highly recommend that all on both sides read it.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/245649/case-marriage-editors
Report comment to moderator
About CA; who gets to make laws?
The people or judges?
Prop 8 defined marriage in CA. Nothing more! A definition! And not even a complete definition at that! Only one limitation, one.
The losing side lost. Accept it. Don’t cry. Get over it. Grow up. Babies!!
Report comment to moderator
Buzzy: The state’s interest is not in making people feel good by legally recognizing their covenants, but on the needs of society (and thus the state) to help ensure a proper environment for the raising of children, without which society has no future.
The needs of society go beyond raising children, though. Once we acknowledge that there are people who never will have biological children and yet nevertheless are allowed a state-approved marriage, the cat is, as you say, out of the bag.
A stable society comes when people are able to form committed partnerships with societal approval. Some of them won’t have natural-born children, or perhaps not any children at all, but they still contribute as adults to the greater good. When two people are married, they form a covenant to care for one another through sickness and age until death.
As a practical matter, that relieves the state of some of that burden that it would shoulder otherwise. As a spiritual matter, it creates a bond that unites the two people and their families into a larger extended family, strengthening their small part of the larger society.
This is true whether they are opposite-sex or same-sex.
The argument from complementarity assumes that there is only one purpose for forming a pair-bond — procreation. I believe that procreation is an important purpose, and perhaps the most important, but not the only one.
Report comment to moderator
Sails: Whenever, at the state level, people have had a chance to vote on the question of homosexual marriage, the people have decisively rejected it. Unfortunately, the courts in such states as Massachusetts have usurped the will of the people, and their politicians have found subterfuges to disallow any vote on the issue.
Not true. States are increasingly passing bills to permit it, without the judiciary getting involved. No “legislating from the bench” required.
I’m sure it won’t be long before we start hearing tirades against those darned activist legislators, legislating from the legislature.
I’m also sure that if those laws allowing same-sex marriage are overturned in courts, we won’t hear a peep about “activist judges.” It’s only bad when you don’t like the outcome, there’s no real principle involved here.
But that’s how we pass laws in this country, through our elected representatives. We’re not supposed to have a public referendum on everything, and especially not on things that impact the civil rights of minority groups. Those are not subject to popular vote.
Report comment to moderator
This issue could split the country.. Otherwise, we are probably doomed to become one giant Sodom and be destroyed.
Report comment to moderator
#59: It’s a good editorial, probably the strongest and most sober argument against same-sex marriage I’ve seen. I’m not persuaded by it, because I’ve already thought through the arguments it raises, but it might be helpful for your side with people who are undecided.
Report comment to moderator
Years ago I wondered how Sodom and Gomorrah could have been functional cities, since they sounded completely anarchic and chaotic. The answer is becoming apparent. They were in the last stages of a downward spiral. If God hadn’t destroyed them, they would have destroyed themselves within a short time, and with a great deal more suffering by the few young and innocent.
Report comment to moderator
Conan – Well thank you for reading it. I agree it is probably more oriented towards my “side” understanding why this issue is so critically important to the future of our society.
Report comment to moderator
God’s first directive was to “Be fruitful and multiply”.
Satan can thwart that Divine injunction by having men pair up with men, women with women.
Ultimately isnt that the whole point?
Homosex is a cheap imitation of something He created. And He doesn’t create junk!
Report comment to moderator
Conan, I’m not sure what others would say, but an activist judge, as I understand it, is one who overturns a duly enacted law without clear constitutional grounds. That is true whether the law is an act of a legislature or a referendum.
How laws are enacted is determine by constitutions. Many states allow for referenda; therefore, that is one proper and legitimate way that laws are enacted in some states.
Report comment to moderator
Conan: States are increasingly passing bills to permit it without the judiciary getting involved
Yes, some states are passing such bills, though when a public referendum is called no state has favored gay marriage. In Massachusetts, where I live, twice, when a legitimate petition was put forward for a referendum on gay marriage, the legislators through parliamentary maneuvering rejected it.
Bottom line, the legislators for good reason understood that even in liberal Massachusetts the voters themselves would reject gay marriage.
Report comment to moderator
Some of the arguments for same-sex marriage make false assumptions:
1. That marriage is primarily a civil arrangement.
Marriage is primary a social, and in many cases, a religious arrangement. The state began to register marriages at a time when state and church were virtually the same and did so to make questions of inheritance and of responsibility for the children easier to answer.
As a libertarian, I do not agree with awarding favors to people based on their being married. If we had eliminated government benefits for married couples, we would not be where we are today. That was the first wedge used to get “civil unions”–which were the first step toward same-sex marriage.
As a libertarian, I further believe that marriage should be handled by religious institutions and that legal matters involving marriage should be a matter of ordinary contract law. Registering marriage with the civil authorities simply makes it convenient to prove parental responsibility and inheritance issues. It is not absolutely necessary.
2. That male and female are interchangeable.
It is not true in the physical realm, obviously. But it goes deeper than that. Men and women are complimentary in other ways as well. Fathers provide certain things for children that mothers generally do not or cannot. Mothers provide certain things for children that fathers generally do not or cannot. Together, a mother and a father provide a complete package of the two “sides” of humanity.
3. That you are not harming a child as long as no physical or psychological damage can be proven.
Children long to have a mother and a father raising them together. That’s just a fact borne out by the experience of many people who are close to children. Putting them in some other arrangement doesn’t satisfy their urge to have their own parents loving them and loving each other. (Adopted kids want to know who their biological parents are. Children whose parents are divorced wish desperately that their parents had stayed together. Children from single-mother homes\ wish that Mom would provide them with a father–their actual father, if possible.
4. That discrimination based on sex is always equivalent to discrimination based on race.
In a matter that directly involves the sex of the people, race is irrelevant but the sex of the participants is obviously relevant. It is one of the most relevant factors in some cases. (That’s why it makes sense to allow transracial marriages but not same-sex marriages.)
For the sake of argument, I’m ignoring the fact that race is a tenuous and specious concept to begin with. A so-called black man is just as much a man as a so-called white man; therefore, the whole idea of race would not even enter into our thinking in a perfect world. That’s a whole other kettle of fish from differentiating between people with either X or Y chromosomes and either ovaries or testes. There the differences are real and undeniable.
Report comment to moderator
Ricky W: This issue could split the country.
Yes, this issue is, much like the abortion issue, not going away as long as devout Christians and Jews continue to breath. The gays are hoping that it is merely a generational issue, though in fact it is a serious religious issue.
Young people when they begin having children often take a different view of the issue.
Report comment to moderator
This issue can’t be decided on any other than a scriptural basis, nor can any matter of law; hence, the need for theonomy.
Report comment to moderator
I may be mistaken about this, but I thought that gay couples were already privy to civil unions. The problem for me is that making that civil union legal marriage once again puts the government’s foot smack into the middle of every religious institution. If gay marriage is legal, it is discrimination to refuse to perform a gay marriage ceremony. Am I getting this wrong? If not, I am sure that’s the next step.
What makes a person want to have sexual relations with something other than what it was designed for physically, and what is best for the offspring of a sexual union, is very complex. I was a serial adulturor. I am still amazed as I think back through the years at how God patiently and completely healed that self- and family-destructive behavior. The church held up the standard for me, even as society told me, “It’s better to go with your heart,” etc., blah, blah, blah.
Now the government wants to step in and still that one voice in this godless society.
Report comment to moderator
The author is wrong. So are so many conservative living in a delusional fog. State recognized homosexual marriage will not destabilize society and create a mess for children-heterosexuals have already done the job through no-fault divorce, illegitimacy, adultery, and fornication. Where have you been for the last 2 generations of children?
I’m 38. My mother and father (Baby Boomers) divorced when my brother and I were a baby and toddler. By the time I was 16 my father was divorced two more times. His third wife had 3 children by two different husbands. One of the daughters went on to have 4 children (starting at age 17) by 3 different men, one of whom she married, and is currently single. The son has two children (the first at age 16) by two different women and is currently single. The other aborted hers so there’s only one-not by the man she’s married to.
My step-dad has 3 children by his first wife who he married when he was 20 and she was 16 because she was pregnant with their oldest child. That son has a rocky marriage by his mentally unstable wife who has two children with him and another by her first husband who she married when she was 16 because she was pregnant. The other son and his wife chose not to have children at all. The daughter has 4 children by 3 different men. She’s 41. Again, she was a teen with the first baby and is engaged to a man who fathered none of them.
My biological brother has a son from a fling and is married. Sometimes I help take care of my nephew’s step-sister who visits in the summer (both dad and step-mom work.) Her father (my nephew’s step-dad) has 3 children by 3 different women-one of whom only recently came to his attention as having been conceived when the dad was a teenager. My nephew’s mother aborted her other baby by a man she met before my brother.
My family tree is so complicated, that I have to draw diagrams for my kids before we go to family functions so they have a clue how they’re related. All those legal marriages did not create the stability the author claims they would have. The law cannot transform the heart.
Remember when Jesus said to get the beam out of your own eye before you address the speck in someone else’s eye? If you did not grow up the chaos that children like me experienced, you may be unable to grasp the negative effect it has on children. Far more children are growing up in this kind of craziness and no one seems nearly as upset about it. Where IS all the righteous anger? I suspect many professing Christians and other alleged conservatives turn a blind eye because in the back of their minds they want an escape route out of their own marriages just in case.
Don’t believe me? Start talking amongst a group of them and propose reinstating legal marriage more like Biblical marriage with only proven adultery as a reason out and you’ll hear a lot of hissing and spitting and excuse-making.
Report comment to moderator
Homeschool Mom,
I’m as snobbish toward Evangelicals as anyone, but I can’t get as worked up as you about this issue. There are scores of Christian books, websites and resources designed to strengthen families and marriages, and many of them decry the damage divorce and (heterosexual) dysfunction can do to people. We may hang with different crowds, but there are lots of Christians out here who wish and work for strong, Biblical marriage.
Report comment to moderator
Homeschool Mom in AZ: Where IS all the righteous anger?
Here in my heart. In my daughter’s heart, who teaches school. In almost every Christian heart I know. This society has been on a downward freefall since the ’60s and ’70s revolution promoted “free love” and unjudged divorce, and the society embraced it.
If you’ve been able, with God’s grace, to step out of the lifestyle embraced by your family, you are a heroine indeed, Homeschool Mom. Praise God for you! And (((hugs)))
Report comment to moderator
Clayvessel – Thank you for your honesty. I believe we all have besetting sins, which we can only overcome (day by day) by dependence on God. You were just as “predisposed” to serial adultery as anyone is to homosexuality. The Homosexualists (got that word on this forum) just don’t understand that we recognize sin first of all in ourselves!
I would like to be able to say that other besetting sins don’t have “fan clubs”, but this is changing more and more as our society falters (witness the heartbreaking note in 76). USA Today CHOSE to feature an article about an industry that promotes adultery in their Valentine’s Day edition.
http://yourlife.usatoday.com/sex-relationships/story/2012-02-13/Sites-that-cater-to-discreet-encounters-thriving/53084600/1
Report comment to moderator
No, it won’t create the problem, but it will definitely exacerbate it. Should we just keep gleefully rushing forward tearing society apart at the seams because we’ve already made such good progress so far? “How much worse can it get, so why stop now?”–is that your argument?
Report comment to moderator
It would seem to me, Homeschool Mom, that your background should make you one of the most ardent defenders of genuine marriage, rather than a defender of the “Modern Family” version of society.
Report comment to moderator
The author is right.
But it is also right to decry the rampant divorce in our culture and more disturbing.. within the church.
But while there is no room for pride as a church given our own sin… we still need to stand up for truth.
Report comment to moderator
Barber wrote; “Marriage is a public legal act and the foundation that orders society, builds families, and supports the rearing of children.”
Extremely well stated.
Barber continued; “Marriage is a social contract between complementary sexes, and children greatly benefit from such unions.”
YES! And children are deprived of this general benefit when marriage is intentionally distorted for political (and other illegitimate) purposes.
Report comment to moderator
Some arguments are more complex than either or. Please read my posts carefully. It’s like people committing assault saying to the police, “Aren’t there any murders out there for you to catch? Why are you picking on me? It’s not like I killed anybody. We have to get these %$@$^# murderers off the streets-it’s not safe with them around. Do your job! What, why so judgmental of me? Would you rather I murder? I can’t believe you support murder.” Tolerating sin even corrupts the ability reason.
I didn’t advocate accepting as legitimate homosexual marriage. I am pointing out the hypocrisy that has existed in Christian circles for two generations now. Christians CLAIM their motivation is all about pleasing God and creating a stable environment for children. I haven’t seen much evidence of that until homosexuals recently started pushing for state recognized legal marriage.
If Christians had truly been motivated to please God and create a stable environment for children, then same amount of intensity and political will would have been around fighting against no-fault divorce for the last 50 years. That. didn’t. happen. The same amount of righteous anger would have been directed at fornication, illegitimacy, adultery, and no-fault divorce in social circles. That. didn’t. happen. The church and society threw away its credibility with its silence and tolerance for unjustified divorce, remarriage and loose living amongst its membership. Now society will degenerate further because of it.
My point was that we are at the tail end of the downward spiral with legally recognized homosexual marriage- not the beginning. The blame with the beginning and middle of the downward spiral rests squarely on the shoulders of heterosexuals who need to repent rather than point fingers at their degenerate descendants. Revial is required and that begins with repentance. Churches have to get it right and tolerating this kind of behavior among their membership has to end. If they HAD then generations would be raised with a respect for marriage. Their current view of marriage is not sacred because the marriages they have seen have failed to created any stability. They simply don’t believe you when you say legal marriage creates stability for children-it didn’t create any for them.
Legal and Biblical marriage are two dramatically different things these days. Most Christians seem to forget that and use the term “marriage” to apply to both. Legal marriage is a joke anymore. Why would anyone who has no concept of what Biblical marriage is care if homosexuals wanted to take part in such a joke? Most voting Americans are in that category. THAT’S why losing credibility matters so much.
Getting credibility back is going to be horrendously difficult-even harder when people don’t fully understand the situation. I don’t think the author and most posters here understand how dire the situation was BEFORE we even began addressing the homosexual issue. A doctor who can’t get the diagnosis right is unlikely to do much good in treatment.
Report comment to moderator
Race is not in any way a chosen quality. How and with whom we prefer to have human sexual relationships with is developed by a series of circumstances and choices made by the human being who is responsible for those choices.
Homosexual preferences, orientation and behavior are moral qualities for human beings. This does not mean that biological factors are out of the picture, but that as human beings, we are not controled or defined by those determined factors.
Report comment to moderator
HS Mom @ 84 There is a great deal of unpleasant truth in your post. A spiritual revival is our only hope.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, the problem with calling for theonomy is that the Bible doesn’t call for it. Yes, a wise people will base their law on biblical precedent, but not think that somehow reviving Old Testament Israelite law is a good idea. Christ fulfilled the law, and even Jews are no longer under the ceremonial aspects; much less should Christians seek to be back under the law when Christ has brought in grace.
Report comment to moderator
If this issue does split the country, hopefully a revival will break out in at least some states. The recent growth in homosexuality is a direct outgrowth of the overall decline in our morals and our respect for and adherence to Biblical marriage.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Cheryl,
Mac, the problem with calling for theonomy is that the Bible doesn’t call for it.
Well that’s a matter of interpretation, isn’t it?
Also, you won’t find any theonomist calling for a revival of ceremonial law, or denying the grace of Christ. That’s a misunderstanding of the theonimic view.
Report comment to moderator
Homeschool Mom, I can’t speak for Christians in general. I can tell you that my heart has been heavy all week because of some marital situations (of people I used to know) that aren’t going the way that God ordained marriage to be. I know that one of the most important criteria when I looked to marry was that he has to be as fully committed to marriage for a lifetime as I am, and that his parents’ fifty-plus-year marriage and his own loving his late wife through cancer were more important elements than almost anything else.
I think the vast majority of us Christians on this blog are extremely pro-marriage.
BTW, I don’t like the word “heterosexual.” It gives at least a little credence to the lie that there are two kinds of people, homosexual and heterosexual. But granting for a moment that it is a legitimate term, blaming heterosexuals for divorce and adultery makes no more sense than blaming human beings in general for such things. I no more need to repent of “heterosexual” sins such as divorce or adultery or fornication than I need to repent of homosexuality; I have not participated in any of those. The church perhaps needs to repent for not taking divorce and fornication seriously enough (I see very high levels of fornication among young people in the church, more than I see high numbers of divorces), but to say that “heterosexuals” need to repent because some non-homosexuals are committing other sexual sins is overkill.
Report comment to moderator
Polishbear wrote: “Actually, for Straight (i.e. heterosexual) couples, marriage is NOT being redefined or changing in any way.”
This is flat-out disingenuous. It is being redefined for our entire society, or in the case of Prop *, the entire state of California. We are dealing now with a society-wide attempt to redefine marriage initiated on political grounds precisely because the redefintion is intended to be forced on us all.
Report comment to moderator
Polishbear wrote: “Most people are Straight, always have been and always will be…”
But many move in and out of being “straight” or otherwise.
Report comment to moderator
If we also redefine marriage to allow large polyamorous groups or incestuous same-sex marriages or marriages with beasts or with inanimate objects, that will ALSO not directly effect individual marriages of heterosexual couples. So what? We are not talking here about individual marriages and Prop 8 was not about individual marriages. It was about an entire society’s definition of marriage.
We also are talking about a wholesale abrogation of the will of the people in Calif.
Report comment to moderator
Adding to JM – The Homosexualists long ago defined a hierarchy of “attitudes” about LGBT. I don’t remember the exact categories, but they are similar to “hatred, tolerance, acceptance, support, advocacy”. At first, “tolerance” was defined as not being Homophobic. That was changed to “acceptance” 10 or 15 years ago. Now they are in the process of deciding that even “acceptance” is Homophobic, and “support” is required.
Report comment to moderator
“Marriage equality” is a disingenuous phrase. Real “marriage equality” advocates would support EQUALITY for polygamists, polyamorists and same-sex incestuous marriages. All such options involve consenting adults who are in love and none of these options directly changes the personal individual marriage of heterosexual couples.
All of the above applies to so-called “civil unions” too. How about civil unions for polygamists and polyamorists? Why not?
This is not just about semantics.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, I suppose it depends on how you define your terms. But does Scripture ever demand that somehow we make laws of a secular society based on its laws? It seems to me that Christians ought to know and obey the law of God, and some laws (against murder, for example) are obviously for everyone. God will someday judge based on His law. But God’s law and man’s law are different, and God doesn’t seem to demand that laws be somehow based on Scripture. Nor, in secular government, is there any way it’s realistic to expect it. What is a sin (e.g., homosexuality, fornication) and what is a crime are different, and there is no way around that. We aren’t a theocracy.
Report comment to moderator
Trust me, we know that. I don’t remember seeing you on this blog before but people here have made that point repeatedly.
People do understand that.
Report comment to moderator
I accidentally posted before finishing. My response to that last quoted comment was to be,
No doubt, but in the meantime, we shouldn’t just withdraw from the culture.
Report comment to moderator
The best argument against theonomy would be Islamic Shari’ah Law. One of the reasons Muslim nations do so poorly is that they attempt to combine state and religion, which gives the state too much power and compromises religious freedom.
Some of the New England Puritan ministers, especially John Cotton and Cotton Mather wished for theonomy, though this was successfully resisted by more sensible men who understood the genius of British Common Law and the danger of combining religion and state. American black-letter law needs to have a moral not a religious foundation. The Puritan who best understood this was Roger Williams whom the Constitutional Framers heeded well.
Tocqueville remarked that Christianity was much stronger in America than in Europe mainly due to the separation of church and state.
While Christians need to fight hard against the assorted forms of depravity of the sexual revolution, it would be a mistake to attempt theonomy.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks, Sails. Very well said.
Report comment to moderator
Theonomy in the OT was ordained by God.
In NT times, the church is now the nation of God and is international in character comprising peoples of all tribes nations and tongues.
Nonetheless, Righteousness exalts a nation.. but sin is a reproach to any people.
Report comment to moderator
Great points, Sails. I learned most of what I ever knew about Roger Williams earlier this week! Albert Mohler’s “Thinking in Public”.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/02/13/tip-john-barry-temp-title/
Report comment to moderator
The best argument against theonomy would be Islamic Shari’ah Law. One of the reasons Muslim nations do so poorly is that they attempt to combine state and religion, which gives the state too much power and compromises religious freedom
Sails: The problem there is TOO MUCH “religious freedom” on the part of the Mullahs who control not just the government but the religious doctrine.
That appears to be a growing problem in this country as well.
With “religious freedom” the question is always doctrine (certainly should be free) vs practice, which is governed by other considerations. Any other person’s personal freedom must begin at the tip of the believer’s nose.
An unconstitutional religious belief is not unconstitutional. When it is put into practice, it becomes unconstitutional as applied to others.
Report comment to moderator
As an Evangelical I can say that Ms Barber’s column is irrelevant. A couple of points…1. “God gave them over…” 2. The U.S. is NOT governed by Biblical law, it is governed by the U.S. Constitution, which is 100% secular. The only answer to the abortion and homo-sexual issue is an amendment to the Constitution. Ask yourself why there’s been no serious move to amend the Constitution in the case of abortion, even in the first 6 years of the Bush 2 administration or in the Reagan administration. There are many answers there.
Report comment to moderator
We are pro-marriage the porblem is the GLT Community desires to have their standard of marriage to be the standard for the nation. an if you speak out against them, you are label a bigot.
Report comment to moderator
luke15 – in order for an amendment to the Constitution to pass and go to the States. It must first get 2/3 rd votes in Congress the left will never surrender their morval of defeat to pass an abortion amendment or surrender their desire to redefine marriage.
Report comment to moderator
Marriage in the US has been between one man and one woman. That is why the Mormon Church changed their standard, in order for Utah to become a State.
What is happen now are judges and people who have been bride while in power, to change that standard even when the people have voted against it.
Report comment to moderator
It isn’t the ‘Left’, it’s the American people expressing their will. Right?
Report comment to moderator
In the case of CA you had a Gay Judge ruling on his own rights.
Report comment to moderator
The left only want those who support this views to have the right to express their will. The desire to silence anyone who views differnetly or who refuse to bow down at the altar of same sex marriage and abortion companies.
Report comment to moderator
sorry should read
The left only want those who support this views to have the right to express their will. They desire to silence anyone who views differnetly or who refuse to bow down at the altar of same sex marriage and abortion companies.
a great example of this are the hate crime laws and the new bullying rules being force on kids.
Report comment to moderator
Arcadia, at 103: That [too much religion controlling the government] appears to be a growing problem in this country as well.
I agree, Secularism, the current Leftist religion, just now dominates American culture and government, especially under Obama. We are in danger of the establishment of Secular religion that among a lot else favors the sexual “revolution” of homosexuality, no-fault divorce, fornication, adultery, and polyamory and regards those who oppose such behavior and marriage as Christian bigots. You oppose your virtuous Secular religion to that of the evil Christian religion.
Being a Secular religious fundamentalist, you have become a
classical righteous moralist rather prone to wearying sermonizing.
Report comment to moderator
“Homosexuals have the same civil rights as everyone else, and restricting marriage to one man and one woman doesn’t deprive them of any. But as Gallagher notes, redefining marriage certainly will deprive us of ours.”
I’m a teenage girl, I’m conservative, and I’m straight. I live in WA state where a gay marriage bill was just signed into law by Governor Gregoire (we still have the option of voting it down). I strongly believe homosexuality is wrong. I’m a Christian, and I know that God has revealed His divine plan for marriage, and that is between one man and one woman, no room for homosexuality. But as our country is based on freedom of religion (that doesn’t mean that there is no room for religion in government, it just means we are able to believe what we like) it does seem biased to me to not allow for gay marriage. I mean, it’s sin, and it’s wrong, especially to Christians, Catholics, Jews, and Muslims. But if people are legally allowed to have premarital sex or commit adultery, which from what I can tell, those two sins are just as bad as gay marriage to God, then why is gay marriage going to deprive straight people of their rights? Could someone answer this question for me: How exactly will making gay marriage legal be depriving straights of their rights?
Report comment to moderator
And I hope my comment is not misunderstood. I am completely against homosexuality in all forms. No exceptions.
Report comment to moderator
Could someone answer this question for me: How exactly will making gay marriage legal be depriving straights of their rights?
—
It shows that children do their best when they are raised by a father and a mother. In same sex marriage they do not have that.
Also people involved in same sex marriage can not have children. Two men and not produce a child and two women can not produce a child. So it goes against nature.
now why should we in soceity after all these years change our standard of marriage to support such a small group of people?
Report comment to moderator
Aubry – My brother is gay, he has been with is partner for over 10 years… He left his wife and his kids for this man. My mother and father are the one’s who are raising his kids.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Cheryl: Yes, I do believe scripture demands that we make laws based on those given by God to Israel, which laws served as an example to all nations. Deuteronomy 4:5-8 depicts Israel and her laws as exemplary. Romans 1, 2 and 3 show that God’s laws have always extended to Gentiles. Pagan nations are commanded to kiss the Son (Ps. 2). The magistrate is to discern good from evil (Ro 13). How so, apart from God’s law?
Appeals to Natural Law, popular opinion, or anything apart from scripture all induce the same question: Says who? No single man, or collection of men, is immune from grave error trying to read the moral language of natural revelation—just look at this current debate. For the record, theonomy is not synonymous with theocracy.
Sails: I love the prejudicial language of your posts! Classic. Textbook.
The best argument—pro or con—regarding theonomy will be found in scripture. Despite your talking up common law and black-letter law and moral vs. religious foundations, you’re still left with: Says who? We’re on the verge of making homosexual “marriage” a nationwide reality. Arguing against that on the basis of “morals”—whatever those are—is going to fall flat, just as any unscriptural response does on these matters. Without a Biblical mooring, it’s just one man’s opinion against another’s.
Report comment to moderator
Aubry, at 113, you are arguing from an essentially relativistic point of view. You claim to be conservative and straight, though you concede that, due to present ambiguity about various forms of immorality, we must somehow accept them.
I admire your decision to adhere to traditional morality but question your relativistic tolerance of immorality.
Report comment to moderator
Aubry, great question.
I’ll take a stab at it, though I have a hunch others will say it better.
First off, there’s a huge difference in allowing sin (fornication, adultery, or homosexuality–or any other sin) and accepting it in law. We can say that some people are thieves without having a legally protected class of thieves practicing an alternative lifestyle.
(BTW, I had to go get supper started, so others may have answered by now.)
So we can say, “Some people will practice adultery” without granting a special sort of society approval on it, or on homosexuality. Marriage is saying this is a socially recognized family–that’s a lot higher level than merely tolerating someone’s sin.
How will it hurt regular families to have homosexuality recognized as a family relationship? In several ways off the top of my head. First, it hurts children to see sin normalized and recognized by society. Let’s say a second-grade schoolteacher is a woman with a live-in lover. It makes a huge difference to the children she teaches whether (1) the lover is never mentioned at all; (2) the lover is mentioned but as a friend; or (3) the lover is mentioned and emphasized as “family” (whether that lover is homosexual or not, the non-marriage family is now seen as something a beloved teacher engages in).
Second, businesses will be seen as discriminating if they deal with marriage or family (e.g., wedding photography, adoption placement) and refuse to treat homosexual couples as married. Pastors may also face legal sanctions for calling it sin. Foster parents, school teachers, and other adults interacting with children will get in deep trouble if they refer to it as sin. Groups such as Boy Scouts will face increasing pressure to allow homosexual leaders, children who are deciding what sex they are, etc. And adoption agencies are more and more not allowed to refuse to give children to homosexual families.
Third, it coarsens culture to have homosexuality publicly flaunted. It also makes it harder to maintain same-sex friendships without having people “wonder”–how many single men are even willing to have male roommates now? Homosexuality is a deviant choice, and often those who are choosing it are also flaunting it–public displays of affection and the like. It also brigns new diseases into public society; AIDS and other diseases are a threat not only to those who practice homosexual sex and illicit drug use, but also at times to innocent parties–babies, those who receive blood transfusions, etc. It is not a healthy lifestyle, and it isn’t “healthy” for culture to celebrate it.
Again, I’m sure others will answer this too, but I wanted to give you a quick answer at least. Something that is bad for the people who engage in it, culture, and children in those families should not be publicly recognized as the same as a family.
Homosexuality is also, as you mentioned, a sin in every religion, and has never in any culture been recognized as marriage. There is no NEED to do so today, and there is strong reason not to.
Report comment to moderator
Legally recognized homosexual marriage is a symptom-not the cause. It’s simply another branch on the tree roots of promiscuity. You can lop off that branch all you like but it will just grow back. You have to uproot the tree, and there isn’t any way the government can enforce that.
If you can’t clean up your own churches, you are not going to be able to clean up society at large.
Most Christians have a VERY lax attitude about fornication, adultery, and unjustified divorce or they are biblically correct in their thinking and silent in their speech on the subject. The evidence is all around us.
1. There are few if any social consequences for people who do not honor their marriages. PC culture has absorbed much of the American Church.
2. Church discipline is rarely applied anymore when it comes to people to do not honor their marriages. Most churches, the truth be told, fear the disapproval of men and the possible loss of financial contributions if they preach about the Biblical standards of marriage. You just can’t serve God and money. Nothing will send some church leadership running from the plain truth faster than the fear of someone using the word, “judgmental.” With so many professing Christians willing participating in unbiblical divorce, most pastors can’t afford to preach a strong sermon on marriage.
3. The Gospel has been watered down to theological nonsense. A person cannot grasp the good news until they understand the bad news. Fear of labeling things as sinful and requiring repentance before accepting people into the local church assembly is considered puritanical and archaic. Church membership is granted to all and in doing so, the church is corrupted.
4. Some of the proposed “cures” actually feed the disease. I sat through the Love and Respect video series hopeful that the church would be getting some good solid biblical views on marriage. I was praying lightening wouldn’t strike me for being present after watching such garbage. We don’t need the Dr. Phil approach with a few Bible verses scattered throughout.
By the way, I’ve only ever attended churches that were fundamentalist/evangelical types and this is what I’m witnessing first hand (Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, Bible churches, etc.) Imagine all those in more liberal leaning churches.
You can’t hope to win any battles when your army is a chaotic mess. It’s time we got our act together. Remember The Great Awakening? It happened in the pulpits and the street corners-not the ballot box. In a nation of the people, by the people, for the people, our representatives are a reflection of the nation as a whole. Our nation is made up mostly of heathens.
Report comment to moderator
Now here is the catch he hates the fact my parnters are raising his son and have already raised his daughter… But he will not raise them himself. He is a drunk an a mean one. He has a history of mental illness, he hates the Christian Faith so much, per his son, he wants nothing to do with me.
Now I have meet his parnter many times and the man seems to be a very nice man. We treat each other kindley. He helped me last year get a jersey. He has no problem with my views.
Report comment to moderator
Most Christians have a VERY lax attitude about fornication, adultery, and unjustified divorce or they are biblically correct in their thinking and silent in their speech on the subject. —-
—
not around here, none of us are VERY lax attitude about those issues. I can tell you my CHurch is not VERY lax attitude .
Report comment to moderator
Mac, at 117, Where exactly does Scripture advocate theonomy? Western civilization advanced in the long run due to the ancient Greek and Jewish Biblical good sense of being skeptical of giving any bunch of priests supreme political power. Power, as our Framers understood, is best checked and balanced.
Any close reading of the Old and New Testaments makes certain that is best to separate priestly and worldly power, as their combination has proved to be historically lethal.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, quick answer here. Note that Romans 1, 2, and 3 include sins that cannot be considered crimes, such as the homosexuality we are discussing here. So I don’t find that passage convincing. There is a difference in saying, “This is against God’s law, and it’s sin,” and “This is against God’s law and a crime and, therefore, a sin (because we are supposed to obey the law).” Both are legitimate. God never says that one can only drive 45 m.p.h. on such and such a street. The law that limits the speed might well be based on God’s law, respect for another’s life and property, but it isn’t directly from Scripture.
I am not arguing for random laws. I do think God’s moral law is the basis of just law. But there is a difference in that view and theonomy, which would expand crime to include more things that are sins. Scripture tells rulers to be just, and it tells us to obey. Beyond that, the specifics are not set. It definitely seems to be implied that laws will vary greatly from one nation to another. With more Christian leaders, we may well have a foundation for more just laws, but to think that somehow non-Christian leaders are morally required to search Scripture and base laws on it–or even that Christian leaders are required to present such a foundation when they bring forth a new law–is to go beyond Scripture, and also to seem to focus more on law as the purpose of Scripture than Scripture itself does. Scripture’s purpose is to present Christ. Focusing on its law code has an unfortunate tendency to exalt legalism and not Christ.
Report comment to moderator
Mom in AZ (at #76) wrote: “Where have you been for the last 2 generations of children?”
Conservatives been paying attention. We have been watching marrige & family in America being systematically destabilized in multiple ways (adultery, shacking up, illegitimacy, divorce, etc.) and this has taught us how crucial it is to stop the unacceptable slide into deeper deparvity. Allowing homosexual marriage just adds to the firther destruction of marriage and family and makes even a bigger mess for children born to this culture.
Report comment to moderator
Aubry @ 113 and 114 I appreciate your faith and moral position and your courage in asking your question. Cheryl did a great job at @ 119. I might add that many of our laws are based on morality taught by our faith. This is why a man can’t marry two women or an animal. The Mormons had to modify their official position on polygamy before Utah could be admitted to the Union. One critical point is whether there are “gay people”. Until 15 years ago most Americans (including many active homosexuals) acknowledged that homosexuality was a choice. The book “After the Ball” which was written by two active homosexuals 20 years ago outlined a cunning public relations effort which has worked beyond their wildest expectations. As part of this plan people (particularly young people) are taught that people are “born Gay”. The truth is much more complex than that.
Report comment to moderator
Homeschool Mom, I seriously doubt your assertion that “Most Christians have a VERY lax attitude about fornication, adultery, and unjustified divorce or they are biblically correct in their thinking and silent in their speech on the subject.”
Calling oneself a Christian doesn’t make one a Christian. It may be that many of the people you are seeing are not genuinely Christians. Others probably are untaught and immature, and in our culture fornication is considered as normal as eating. (We haven’t yet normalized adultery and homosexuality to that extent, but it is simply assumed that single people are having sex.) I think some pastors may be blind to the seriousness with which the younger generation is bathed in this cultural understanding, and I don’t think youth groups help it much at all, as a rule. (They’re mostly led by young, immature, popularity-seeking adults, and they give too many opportunities to build church-sanctioned relationships that aren’t watched well enough. Everyone assumes church kids are good kids and church activities are “safe.” That isn’t true.)
I do think these are sins the church needs to take more seriously, but I really don’t think it can be said that genuine Christians have a very lax attitude on these issues.
Report comment to moderator
Mom in AZ (at #76),
All the sexual chaos you described that has impacted people you care for is NOT an argument for even more, or for it to be sanction by new laws that increase sexual chaos even more.
And Jesus’ teaching about getting the beam out of your own eye is also not an argument for intentionally increasing the size of beams in more people’s eyes (which is what I think would happen if we sanctioned homosexual marriage).
Report comment to moderator
Sails:
Any close reading of the Old and New Testaments makes certain that is best…
Classic! Love it!
You didn’t really advance the discussion beyond what I had mentioned in 117. Israel was exemplary; Gentile nations were expected to follow suit and kiss the Son.
Cheryl: Why should the moral component of God’s law be separated from the legal–even granting they’re extricable at all? Those sins deserving death were criminal–death was the penal sanction.
No theonomist suggests the Bible speaks specifically about traffic laws. And theonomy does not call a crime anything that scripture has not already labeled as such.
When you note that non-Christians are not morally required to search the scriptures in making law, what do you make of Psalm 2, referenced above? Can you flesh out your legalism charge a bit, especially as it relates to anything I’ve posted so far?
Report comment to moderator
Aubry – I have often asked myself the same question. In our post-Christian society, is there a really good secular arguement against permitting gay marriage? There is a link in post #49, which provides a pretty good case that marriage is for the purposes of procreation and therefore, cannot include gays. We can also argue that the resulting disorder from permitting gay marriage will cause more chaos in our society, and that is true too. We can also argue from history, that even in societies like Ancient Greece, where homosexuality was considered normal, marriage was still reserved for a man and a woman, and we could quote somebody like Plato on that. However, the most powerful argument we have is from the Bible – the sword of the Spirit (Hebrews 4:12).
Marriage was originally created because “It is not good that the man should be alone” (Genesis 2:18-25). So marriage between one man and one woman was the perfection of creation, but after the fall it was distorted into polygamy and all other forms of sexual perversion. It was not until Christ came, that the original purpose for marriage was again emphasized: “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” (Mark 10:5-9). I would encourage you to read both the Genesis and Mark passages through. We as Christians may not be able to stop laws like this from being passed, but we are the light bearers and salt preservers of our nations. We can set the standard, whether anyone else follows us or not.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Cheryl, that helps a lot. Since our country is a free country, I know that as Christians, we can’t necessarily win our case by using what the Bible says when we are arguing with non-christians. They just won’t believe what we do. But, what you say makes sense. Gay marriage will hurt children and would just be another thing that children will have to be protected from. It also hurts business, especially religious ones, and since we have a right to our own beliefs, making us accept a homosexual couple as married would not be real freedom. Thanks again!
Report comment to moderator
All of this might be true but it’s still irrelevant. The Constitution is the issue and Biblical arguments will have no standing. Repeat, the Constitution IS the problem. Patrick Henry and others tried to inject a religious element to it but failed.
Report comment to moderator
Aubry – Pastor Roy gave a very pertinent anecdote. May I also recommend an article which Buzzy pointed out at 49. It is the best defense of traditional marriage throughout history that I have seen. It includes a lot of information about why this isn’t just a question of giving a group “their rights” without unintended consequences on the society as a whole.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, the problem for non-Christians is that they refuse Christ, not that they don’t pattern their law after Israelite law. Give a NT passage where Israelite law is NOT a pattern to show us our need of Christ, but is instead a governmental example for us to follow in writing our own laws. I think this is a misunderstanding of law and also of the connection between law and grace.
I didn’t call you a legalist, didn’t intend to. But I think there is a very real danger of either legalism or antinomianism when we misunderstand the law–and legalism is obviously the danger for those who over-emphasize the law. I don’t think the Israelite law was ever intended as an example to, say, have today’s secular nations putting people to death for sins such as homosexuality and adultery. Even for Israel, the law didn’t work. They needed Christ. Israel was a theocracy, with government and religion mixed together in leadership. The church is never told to “lead” today’s government, and I think we lose sight of our real calling when we try to.
That’s probably the best I can explain my position; it isn’t something I’ve spent endless hours figuring out. But I know that that isn’t the purpose of the law, and Scripture never tells us it is. Again, for individual leaders to go to Scripture as a wise guide, no problem, but I think if we go beyond that, it’s likely to be a misuse of Scripture and a misunderstanding of the law.
Report comment to moderator
Aubry,
Sounds like you are the sort of girl I would be proud to have as a grand-daughter. It is clear to me that you are a decent young lady who wants to do right and please the good Lord.
Aubry wrote: “But as our country is based on freedom of religion… it does seem biased to me to not allow for gay marriage.”
You’re right, it is biased AND it is right and justified too. Sometimes a decent bias with solid reasons is not a bad thing, Aubry. You see, it is ALSO biased to not allow polygamous marriage and to not allow marriage between seven people of both sexes who love each other and want to marry. But it is good to have a bias against those crazy things. Homosexual marriage (and other wild re-definitions of marriage) leaves the children growing up in our society horribly confused about what we want them to apsire to with regard to sex and marriage. It also means that fewer and fewer children will grow up in homes with their mother and father together! To avoid all bias, we would have to allow all sorts of new definitions for marriage wouldn’t we? That would be very bad for the children who are growing up in such a twisted and confusing society.
Aubry, there will never ever be a time when all bias is eliminated, nor should there be. We must sort out which forms of bias are healthy and needed and which ones are not. That takes wisdom and a long difficult political process to sort out in a society.
In America, “freedom of religion” was never meant to allow an ‘anything goes’ society. It does not mean that whatever anyone says is a religious right or duty is really one. In America, you can found a new religion that advocates marriage to insects or siblings, or multiple sexes. But that does not mean the legal definition of marriage should change toi satisfy EVERY new religion.
In America, people are allowed to have homosexual sex and pre-marital sex whether we Christians like it or not. But the definition of marriage by law is a different matter. We must do what is best for our children and not what some group of adults claim is best for themselves.
Report comment to moderator
Well said, Joel Mark.
Report comment to moderator
Where is the definition of marriage mentioned in the U.S. Constitution? And where is polygamous marriage made illegal in Scripture?
Report comment to moderator
Luke15 – Answer to second question: Matthew 19:5 “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh” (See also Mark 10:7-8, Romans 7:2-3, I Corinthians 7:2 & I Timothy 3:2,12).
Report comment to moderator
#137 – Polygamy is mentioned in the Bible because the Bible tells the truth about the flawed culture and people that God chose to work with. But God’s will regarding marriage was made clear from the beginning:
Jesus was referring to Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24 when he said, “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?” (Matthew 19:4-5).
Jesus added; “So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6).
God’s original will is clear:
* Male and female…
* Leave father and mother…
* Unite with wife…
* Two (not 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7) become one…
* God does the joining.
* Man should not mess with this sacred joining of one man and one woman.
Report comment to moderator
#137 – “Where is the definition of marriage mentioned in the U.S. Constitution?”
Read it–it’s not there and no one said it was. But “we the people…” IS there and that is what is so unconstitutional about the way a few leftist California judges defied and disrespected the clear will of the people.
Report comment to moderator
I’m a Californian and I agree with you but that’s how our system works. This will eventually get to the USCT and our references to Scripture and tradition won’t carry the weight we think they will. BTW, ‘we the people’ has nothing to do with it. We are a representative democracy and the USCT is the final authority. Your point that marriage isn’t mentioned in the Constitution is exactly the problem.
Report comment to moderator
Sails: Secularism, the current Leftist religion, just now dominates American culture and government, especially under Obama. We are in danger of the establishment of Secular religion that among a lot else favors the sexual “revolution”
What is the deity of this “religion”? What doctrines must its adherents cleave to in spite of all evidence to the contrary? What commandments did the deity hand down? What is its holy book? Where are its infallible ministers, preachers, churches, and what special tax exemptions is it entitled to. Has anybody ever been excommunicated, shunned or driven out? And what are the posthumous rewards of membership?
Sorry, this line of drivel is just that. As someone once commented, it’s not worth a footnote in the history of piffle.
Oh, and what gives you the right to challenge Obama’s religion, or his profession of religious belief? Are you so superior in your faith that no one can be be more or better faithful than you? Is your understnading of “Christianity” superior to his, or just differnt?
Report comment to moderator
Mac,
As Christians, our primary allegiance is to Christ and our primary sphere of influence is within our own families. And as Christians, we are part of the body of Christ. Government has its own role and its leaders are responsible to God, but I think one of the problems with theonomy is at least its perceived idea that we change the culture by trying to change laws.
Even from a theological perspective, we know that the law doesn’t change hearts; it exposes what is in the heart. The Christian should want to obey God’s law, and is empowered to do so. But a culture without Christian influence on its people’s hearts won’t act like a “Christian nation” just because its laws are derived from Scripture. So when we focus on laws, no matter how just, we aren’t really changing much of anything. Writing more and more laws only creates more and more lawbreakers. Seeking overly much to influence laws distracts us from the true calling of the church, which is distinct from a government calling. (I am not saying no Christian is ever called to government leadership, but that most of us are not. And for those who are not, the attempt to sway government is more likely a distraction than a help.)
Without Christian leadership, laws will stray more and more from Christian principles, but that truly is not our concern. Under Nero Christians were told to obey their rulers and love their enemies; the command is the same today. It’s the church that should concern us more. We probably have little say over whether homosexual marriage becomes legal in our community or our nation (though we should speak out or vote when given the chance), but we may well be able to answer questions of young Christians as to why God’s standards of sexuality matter. We may well be able to teach biblical truth to a class of young couples who mostly grew up in broken homes and don’t really know how to live as Christian spouses.
I think, in other words, that theonomy distracts us from our true Christian calling, to our families, our communities, and our local churches (and through them to missions to the wider world). If we are called into politics, we can do our best to write just laws; but as private citizens our calling is to be good citizens, but primarily citizens of heaven and not of America.
Report comment to moderator
Luke wrote; “BTW, ‘we the people’ has nothing to do with it.”
Huh? It has everything to do with it. You asked “Where is the definition of marriage mentioned in the U.S. Constitution?” I replied that it’s not there and that no one ever claimed it did. But “we the people…” is in the U.S. Constitution and that principle should be respected. It was wrongfully dismissed in California in practice and in principle and THAT is the problem. It is NOT how our system should work to have a few activist judges overturning legitimate legislation on false and politicized pretenses as was the case here.
What is the “USCT?” Do you mean the US Supreme Court?
Report comment to moderator
Arcadia asked, “What is the deity of this “religion”?
The almighty Self.
“What doctrines must its adherents cleave to in spite of all evidence to the contrary?”
Moral relativism, and extreme intolerance for alternative faiths, to name a couple. Another bedrock belief for secularist religion is the use of the state and gov’t machinery and funds to tear down other faiths and establish the religion of secualrism as the state [ir]religion.
“What commandments did the deity hand down?”
Thou shalt follow your personal feelings as the ultimate guide for all morality.
“What is its holy book?”
“The Audacity of Hope.” Or any issue of the New York Times.
“Where are its infallible ministers, preachers, churches, and what special tax exemptions is it entitled to.”
The left-stream media are their main preachers as well as Democrat Party leaders who get far far more than just tax-exemptions–they live completely off of tax money!
“Has anybody ever been excommunicated, shunned or driven out?”
Sure. Countless conservatives have been smeared and lost their careers for making mis-steps that offend the leftist secular elites. Scourgings and high-tech lynchings are common–remember Clarence Thomas and more recently, Sarah Palin.
Report comment to moderator
Very well put, Cheryl.
Joel, yes I mean the Supreme Court. You’re missing the whole point on this. We don’t operate on popular vote. If we did Al Gore would have been president. Right? The courts are the final resort on this stuff. You might not like it but that’s how our system works.
Report comment to moderator
Joel, Clarence Thomas was a whining scoundrel. The one who was smeared and nearly destroyed was Anita Hill, an evangelical. She had taught at ORU for heaven’s sake. Joe Biden saved Thomas’ bacon when he refused to allow any of the 3-4 other women to testify. We should be ashamed for what we did to her.
Re: Sarah Palin…she quit before half of her term was over. Why do we feel sorry for her?
Report comment to moderator
Luke,
Of course I get the whole regarding “we the people. Don’t be unreasonable. It is just silly to deny that the voice of the people is not involved here at least to some extent. That does not mean I think everything is solved by a popular vote or that we should eliminate the elcectoral college. Don’t be silly, sir. But the system was violated in this case by asctivist judges and the will of the people was wrongly overturned.
Report comment to moderator
Luke, your evil and vicious personal name-calling smear on Clarence Thomas was telling. I no longer respect your comnents at all. Not even slightly.
And Senator Joesph Biden was even more disrespectful of Judge Thomas than you are. I remember it clearly.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl #143, very well said!!!
Report comment to moderator
I remember listening to the Thomas hearings while working on my car in the driveway. It was, indeed, a high tech lynching. Interestingly, the comedian and talk show host Dennis Miller counts that travesty as the point in time he realized that he was a conservative.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Cheryl, thanks for your thoughtful responses.
I don’t think the Israelite law was ever intended as…
I respect you and appreciate what you have to say, but what you or I think doesn’t determine Biblical doctrine. Legalism is a danger for anyone, but if nobody is demonstrably guilty of it—as you seem to say I am not, though with reservation—there’s no need to trot out that specter.
Give a NT passage where Israelite law is NOT a pattern to show us our need of Christ, but is instead a governmental example for us to follow in writing our own laws. I think this is a misunderstanding of law and also of the connection between law and grace.
Why would that onus be on the theonomist? I’ve already cited passages that speak to an abiding character of even the civil aspect of the law, or its application beyond Israel to pagan nations. Wouldn’t the task be for the non-theonomist to show how that isn’t the case? How, exactly, does theonomy detract from the notion of grace? I’ve always been a bit stumped by that assertion, given that most theonomists are reformed in their soteriology, emphasizing our utter dependence on Christ for our salvation apart from any work on our part at all.
I think one of the problems with theonomy is at least its perceived idea that we change the culture by trying to change laws.
Again, I’m not sure what sources you’re consulting for your understanding of theonomy. The “idea” of theonomy is that we do whatever scripture commands us to do. Changing the culture or an individual’s heart is not what drives the doctrine.
I think you pose a false dilemma when you pit the Christian’s role in the church (or family or community) against his or her role in government. I don’t follow the logic that says going to scripture to discern good law means we’re detracting from our work in our own families.
Report comment to moderator
Kyle: Conan, I’m not sure what others would say, but an activist judge, as I understand it, is one who overturns a duly enacted law without clear constitutional grounds.
Technically that’s probably true. In common usage, though, the phrase gets tossed around anytime a judge overturns a law that conservatives like — even when there are good grounds for overturning it. It’s become a meaningless epithet through overuse.
How laws are enacted is determine by constitutions. Many states allow for referenda; therefore, that is one proper and legitimate way that laws are enacted in some states.
In some states for some laws, but all states have legislatures and governors who handle the bulk of legislation. And in no case does a majority vote override civil rights — that’s when the so-called ‘activist judges’ correctly overturn bad laws.
Report comment to moderator
Phos: Luke15 – Answer to second question: Matthew 19:5 “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh”
In no way does that exclude polygamy, as Luke asked. Compare 1 Corinthians 6:16:
Paul doesn’t appear to be saying that a man who has sex with a prostitute is married to the prostitute as a result. (And if he is, he’s implicitly endorsing polyandry, as the prostitute would have many such husbands.) A married man who is “one flesh” with his wife and then hires a prostitute is also “one flesh” with her — one man, two women, so the phrase “become one flesh” in no way implies a limit of one man, one woman.
Report comment to moderator
Arcadia, Joel Mark brilliantly answered your questions about the de facto secular religion. I would only add another of its sacred books, namely I’m OK, You’re OK.
Report comment to moderator
Mac,
I can’t sleep but am not going to go into a lengthy reply. But I will reply to one of your questions: Why should the “onus” be on the theonomist to show that theonomy is true? Well, first of all I must admit that I’m biased and unpersuadable, simply because both my denomination and my husband have called it error, and I am a woman under authority. (Well, technically my denomination has called federal vision error, and I admit I have trouble with the varioous nuances of how all that fits together. But I do know there is a connection.)
But apart from that, you hold the minority position, and yet you seem to be assuming that it is obvious to the rest of us. It isn’t. Scripture gives us an example of one government that was a theocracy, shows us that even theocracy doesn’t “work” in changing people’s hearts, and then shows us the fulfillment of the Law in Christ. Since we already know the theological purpose of the law, if we are to believe that the Israelite law is an example for other nations that they are required to follow in writing their own laws, there must be some place in Scripture where we are told that is the case. Instead, if anything we see the opposite in the New Testament; we see Jews who have come to Christ and who are now telling other Jews that they are not under the Jewish law. Nowhere do we see that the Jewish law should now expand to cover Gentiles. (I do believe that the Law still has a purpose today, and still shows us God’s holiness. But much of that Law–like God’s ordaining marriage for a man and a woman–isn’t “law” in the legal sense. Dealing with murderers is clearly given to the government, and the right to enforce other lawbreaking is too, but the details of that law don’t seem to be given.)
I do believe that Christian leaders will be guided by Scripture in all that they do, including making laws. I believe that fewer laws are better; one blind spot, perhaps, in the Founding Fathers’ vision might have been that they failed to see that a legislature that was in session year after year would over time write too many laws, and gradually chip away at our freedom.
A nation in which most of our leaders are Christians, and law is just starting to be written, will sensibly look at Scripture for a foundation point–how do we know whether a law is just, for example? The Old Testament principle of restitution makes more sense than locking up a thief and further burdening the state with his care while restoring nothing to his victim. Some laws are indeed unwise or unjust.
But I don’t believe that calling for theonomy answers the problem. First, because I see no evidence that Scripture calls for it (indeed, what I think isn’t the guide for what is true–but the Bereans were applauded for searching Scripture, and I’m a middle-aged woman who has a lifelong grounding in Scripture, so I am trying to base my perspectives on Scripture). Second, we already know that the law doesn’t change hearts. And third, the church is supposed to be the ones representing the truth, so if the culture is off track, correcting the church is the first place to look for the problem.
But it’s still sleep-time here, and that’s probably enough from me on the subject anyway.
Report comment to moderator
TWH [to ClayVessel]: You were just as “predisposed” to serial adultery as anyone is to homosexuality.
Not likely.
Adultery is a matter of chosen behavior. Homosexuality is a matter of innate orientation. The first is something a person does; the second is something a person is.
A homosexual who chooses to remain celibate is still a homosexual. That’s the definition of to whom he is sexually attracted, whether or not he acts on it.
An adulterer who stops having affairs and returns to his spouse is no longer an adulterer. It’s not an orientation, just a behavior. But once a homosexual chooses to stop having sex, he is still homosexual in orientation.
Report comment to moderator
Thank you, again, Cheryl, for your reply. Respectfully, though, you didn’t speak to what I’ve already posted here a couple times before, and in fact, reiterated some things I’ve already denied (e.g., the motivation to change hearts, using theonomy to “answer the problem”). You’re free to respond or not, but I’d be curious to know where you or your husband get your data on the theonomic view. You’re not representing it too well. I assume you, too, are in a minority–being Reformed in a world of pre-mil dispies–so I imagine you have some understanding of feeling like your view is misunderstood and caricatured.
Report comment to moderator
It sadden me that people who claim to Christian’ are wiling to let people be trapped in sexual sin
Report comment to moderator
Conan – I am not surprised we disagree on this point, and it is a key one. You sort of provided your own answer in the last sentence. We are talking about the difference between a person who is “homosexual in orientation” and one who practices homosexuality. BIG difference.
Notice the language of all addiction/compulsion therapy. Those who have been controlled by the desire for alcohol and are now “sober” greatly prefer to call themselves “recovering alcoholics” rather than “former alcoholics”. In fact, they emphasize that they will always BE alcoholics.
Christians who have a grounding in the faith are IMMENSELY aware that we are all subject to various sins on a daily basis. 1 Cor 10:12: “Therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (NAS)
Paul even confessed that he suffered with “besetting sin” in Romans 7:23: “but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.” (NAS)
Report comment to moderator
Mac, it isn’t a view I’ve studied all that closely, and not one that particularly interests me. (Politics is not my field; I have no such calling, and there’s nothing I can do except vote. Long ago i stopped signing petitions, for example.) I did listen to some tapes of whom at least some of the speakers were theonomists; I don’t know where my husband has gotten his information. We haven’t really discussed it. He just wanted to be sure I didn’t follow federal vision before he started courting me, and I was able to tell him I’d read the federal vision position paper written by the PCA.
Yes, I am Reformed; dispensationalism is a new position in church history so I don’t feel all that threatened by it. I did grow up in churches that taught it, and got my degree from a Bible college that mostly taught or assumed it.
I’m sorry if I haven’t addressed everything; as I said, it isn’t something on which I feel well versed, or have interest in studying. But I haven’t seen where you have explained it yourself or have given its scriptural foundations, either. So all I have to go on is the tapes and various places where I have seen that all laws of all countries should be based on Israelite law, and any law that cannot be linked to an Israelite law cannot be written. Since Scripture doesn’t say that, the best we can say is that laws must be just and must defend life and property, and that Christian lawmakers may do well to look at Israeli law for an example of how to do so.
But I have to do my taxes and I need to go.
Report comment to moderator
TWH: Notice the language of all addiction/compulsion therapy. Those who have been controlled by the desire for alcohol and are now “sober” greatly prefer to call themselves “recovering alcoholics” rather than “former alcoholics”. In fact, they emphasize that they will always BE alcoholics.
Yes, and that’s in line with what I’m saying. Adultery is rarely on the level of addiction. The old phrase “once a cheater, always a cheater” really is not true. People very often succumb to that temptation at one point in their lives, and later wise up and don’t ever fall into it again.
Addiction is a physical dependency on a substance. (I don’t believe that one can be “addicted” to porn, or video games or other such things … addiction is a condition that has to do with chemical interactions. It applies to drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, and nothing else.) Once that dependency is established, it can be easily re-awakened, so the recovering alcoholic is well advised to not risk it.
Sexual orientation is still not well understood, but it does appear that it’s established long before puberty, and that it really doesn’t have anything to do with upbringing (there are numerous cases of twins, raised by the same parents in the same environment, who have different sexual orientations.) The most likely case is that is indeed something inborn. But even if it isn’t, it’s still a powerful factor that is not changeable for most people. (Can you imagine ever “choosing” to be homosexual? If not, why would you think homosexuals could choose not to be?)
Report comment to moderator
Hi Cheryl. With you, I reject Federal Vision.
I haven’t pretended to have explained theonomy comprehensively, although what I did offer can be supportive of it. It’s those things I don’t think you responded to, specifically. Your replies were more along the lines of why you have a sense theonomy isn’t true–which is fine. I get the sense myself, though, that you harbor perceptions about the doctrine that are far afield of its actual content (e.g., your implication in #87 that theonomy calls for revival of OT ceremonial law). Scripture doesn’t “say” a lot of things directly–you probably know this as a member of a church that subscribes to the WCF, which confession can certainly be argued to advocate theonomy! But I appreciate your posts, and I hope you get lots back on your taxes.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, I agree that there is a lot in Scripture that isn’t said directly. But since much is said about the purpose of the law, that would seem to be a strange omission; that’s my point.
We probably agree on more than we disagree.
Blessings.
Report comment to moderator
Sure, and of course, the disagreement is whether there is an omission at all.
Report comment to moderator
THe Being that invented marriage and who also had an instuction book written, gives at least 6 purposes for marraige.
1 Companionship
2 Pleasure
3 Completeness
4 Fruitfulness
5 Protection
6 Illustration
Just a casual look will reveal, that a one man, one woman marriage is the “gold standard”, and meets all 6 purposes. Anything else falls short.
“He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. “
Report comment to moderator
Five55, I’d add provision, unless that is included under something else.
Report comment to moderator
Conan @154: Yours is a strange interpretation of a verse which condemns fornication. I Corinthians 6:16 is oart of a whole section on fornication vs. marriage from chapter 6:12 through chapter 7. In fact, I referenced one of them, I Cor. 7:2: “Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” In other words, to avoid the perverted ‘joining’ with a prostitute, marry (See also Romans 7:2-3).
Report comment to moderator
Phos: I brought it up only to show that the phrase “one flesh” does not connote some mystical profound reality that’s confined to marriage. In Paul’s theology, it pertains to any two people who have sexual relations, regardless of their emotional, spiritual or legal relationship, or lack thereof.
When you have relations with your wife, you become one flesh with her. When you have relations with a prostitute, you become one flesh with her.
To become one flesh is just to have sexual relations. Paul was pleading with the Corinthians to see themselves as members of the Body of Christ and not to join Christ with a prostitute. Perhaps that’s a worthy thing to exhort, but it also means that the phrase doesn’t suggest that one man, one woman is the only marriage God recognizes or approves. Polygamy certainly was acceptable to God in the olden days, despite the efforts today’s Christians make to deny it.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, I agree with you on polygamy. But God condemns homosexuality. And by the way, a person who has never committed this sin is not a homosexual any more than a person who has never stolen is a thief.
Report comment to moderator
It is disconcerting (and a bit amusing) to see Conan claim that a verse that clearly says one thing simple says another, just because Conan says so.
If marriage involves two becoming one (Matthew 19:5,6), that excludes polygamy from what God intended for marriage “from the beginning” (Matthew 19:4f).
1 Corinthians 6:16 in no way endorses or advocates polygamy nor does it contradict Matthew 19:4-6. 1 Cor. 6:16 reiterates God’s intent for us NOT to have sex outside of marriage. It is a teaching point.
Paul was conveying the absurdity and wrongness of a married man who is “one flesh” with his wife hiring a prostitute and becoming “one flesh” with her. That is exactly what God does NOT intend for us or for marriage.
Conan wrote; “…so the phrase ‘become one flesh’ in no way implies a limit of one man, one woman.”
Bizarre! That is EXACTLY what it DOES limit. Become “one flesh” is precisely what the Bible cites to limit us to being only with our spouse.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, if you use “acceptable” in the sense of “permit,” as in God permitted Cain to kill Abel, the Israelites to worship idols, and the priests to act corruptly, then yes polygamy was acceptable to God. If, however, you mean that polygamy was fine with God and fit right in with His good desire for people then I think you are really misunderstanding the OT. The spiritual adultery of Israel is one of the primary things God condemns in the OT.
Report comment to moderator
Conan – Polygamy, like divorce (since they are two sides of the same coin) was allowed, as Christ put it, “For the hardness of your heart..” (Mark 10:5) In fact, if you read the Mosaic law, it nowhere expressly says polygamy is allowed. It simply says, “If a man have two wives… (Deuteronomy 21:15-17), accounting for polygamy as part of society. All that changed when Christ came and held up a new standard. As Paul said on Mars hill about paganism, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” (Acts 17:30)
As for the twain becoming one flesh – it is not just about sexual relations, although that is its outward symbol. Marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church. Ephesians 5:22-33 makes that quite clear: “For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”
That this change to monogamy is a feature of Christianity is apparent from Paul’s instructions to the early church. Church leaders had to be the husbands of one wife, widows provided for by the church had to have been monogamus (I Timothy 3:2,12 & 5:9) When Paul uses the picture of becoming one flesh with a prostitute, he is saying that fornication is a distortion, a mockery, a blasphemy of the unity of Christ and the Church. Or as the author of Hebrews put it: “Marriage is honourable in all and the bed undefiled: but whoremongerers and adulterers God will judge.” (Hebrews 13:4)
Report comment to moderator
Joel, what you think of me is of no import but by implication you are smearing an evangelical woman named Anita Hill. You have a much bigger problem than I as evidence continues to show that Thomas was exactly who the women said he was.
Report comment to moderator
Joel: If a married man who hires a prostitute is “one flesh” with both women, obviously the phrase does not mean an exclusive bond. You’re the one distorting the meaning to suit your agenda.
Report comment to moderator
Neil Evans: The spiritual adultery of Israel is one of the primary things God condemns in the OT.
Spiritual adultery was about worshiping other gods — sometimes under the influence of foreign wives, sometimes not. But nothing in the OT suggests even slightly that having multiple wives was wrong.
God was not shy about saying “thou shalt not” when he wanted to forbid something. Polygamy and slavery were two things he expressly allows that modern Christians twist themselves into all kinds of knots trying to deny.
Report comment to moderator
To be clear, I’m strongly Pro-Life, with reasonable exceptions. I’ve walked the walk in front of many clinics. I’m also strongly against civil unions and homosexual marriage. Neither should be recognized by law. But, and it’s a big BUT, according to the Constitution we are a totally secular nation. Our appeals to Scripture are irrelevant. The Constitution IS our enemy and appeals to science will have more appeal than Scripture. Our only REAL argument is to the history of the human race. Our appeals regarding the need for two opposite-sex parents are futile because of the disastrous condition in so many American families, including evangelicals. Our solution is simple. Vote for the candidates that represent our views and preach John 3:16-17 over and over (unless you’re a 5 pointer). Our mission is one and one only and that is to take the Good News to every nation and make disciples. Our forays into politics have caused us to lose focus and wasted hundreds of millions of dollars. Our refuge is in Christ, NOT in the U.S. Constitution.
Report comment to moderator
Luke 15, the constitution is not our “enemy”; it is the wise law of our land and our authority.
For the record, five-point Calvinists believe very strongly in Scripture, and we believe in evangelism.
It’s best not to argue in hyperbole.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, there is a very significant difference between God “allowing” polygamy and His “approving” it. There are many things that God does not approve but allows for a variety of reasons.
I mentioned spiritual adultery because it describes the infidelity that God hates in any realm.
Report comment to moderator
Luke wrote; “…what you think of me is of no import…”
I did NOT even comment, sir, on what I think of you. I only commented on what I think of your comments (I totally disrespect them for the reason I gave). I don’t even know you at all.
Report comment to moderator
Luke wrote; “…by implication you are smearing an evangelical woman named Anita Hill.”
That’s ridiculous and unwarrented. It’s false too. I actually disrespect your comments even more now. I never many ANY reference to Anita Hill whatsoever. You did. You try to put thoughts and words into my mind and mouth that were never there and then condemn me for them. That’s sick.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, if a married man who hires a prostitute becomes “one flesh” with her, then he has sinned. He has broken his vow and stands in desperate need of forgiveness. But what that sinner has done has nothing to do with what God (through Scripture) clearly teaches about God’s definition and intent for marriage.
God does intend for the marriage bond to be an exclusive bond and just because an adulterer breaks it does not change anything about what God’s will is. Don’t be silly and don’t try to figure this out with strained legalistic technicalities of language that have nothing to do with the real message.
Report comment to moderator
Correction: I never made ANY reference to Anita Hill whatsoever.
__________________
Report comment to moderator
The Constitution IS our enemy —-
wHAT??????????????????????????????????? Who taught you that lie?
Report comment to moderator
Neil Evans – Here the real question about God “allowing” polygamy. What happen to the families of those who involved in polygamy?
Report comment to moderator
Pastor Roy, regarding moral issues it is because it contains no moral laws at all. There is nothing in it about abortion or marriage. In our country at present science trumps Scripture. The opinions of sociologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. will trump biblical law every time.
Report comment to moderator
Joel, then what is your opinion of Anita Hill? Her testimony is what set off the high-tech lynching comment.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, regarding moral issues the Constitution IS our enemy. It is a TOTALLY secular document. Regarding 5 pointers, you don’t believe that God loves everyone and that Christ died for all. Many of you can’t even look at your own children and tell them that God loves them and Christ died for them.
Report comment to moderator
Conan @ 157 I’ve got a surprise for you. Most males are “oriented” toward adultery. It is our faith that prevents us from acting on that impulse. I can’t speak for women.
Report comment to moderator
Luke, the Constitution’s purpose isn’t to decide what is right and wrong; it isn’t supposed to be. It is no more our “enemy” for not doing so than algebra is our enemy because it doesn’t tell us adultery is wrong! The Constitution seeks to limit how the government can interact with our lives, including hindering Congress from interfering with our worship. As we are to submit to our leaders, and as the Constitution was specifically written in order to best allow us freedom (including freedom to worship God), seeing it as our enemy truly makes no sense.
As to whether Christ died for all, if He died for all people, then all must be saved. If Christ died for all sins and our disbelief keeps us from being saved, the Christ died for all sins except the sin of unbelief. Since we don’t believe in universalism, then we must believe some will not be saved. Therefore, God either demands payment for sin twice (Christ’s death for the unbeliever plus the unbeliever’s death as well) or not all sins are covered by Christ’s blood.
Bottom line, this is a theological disagreement more complicated than just “You Calvinists are ridiculous and you don’t believe the Bible, so there.” Those who aren’t Calvinists tend to believe that believers can convince unbelievers into belief; basically that God doesn’t decide who will believe, but the dedicated believer can “do the trick” if he ends up saying the right thing. There’s a limit on God’s sovereignty, and there’s a tendency to see faith as a work (if a person is smart enough, he will choose to believe), whereas Scripture says that faith itslf is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) and that all whom God chooses will make it all the way to glory (Rom. 8:30); also Matthew 6:65 (that none can come to Christ unless the Father calls him–or drags him, as I understand is the idea in the original).
I’m not trying to convince you of Calvinism; you sound like a person who isn’t easily convinced of anything. I’m simply showing you a handful of passages in which Scripture is hard to read any other way than that God choose who will believe. For me, it is much, much easier to understand that God chooses than to accept that the Christian can talk someone into belief or can say the wrong thing (or do the wrong thing) and end up damning the unbeliever, and yet God will count the unbelief against the unbeliever who doesn’t believe and not the believer whose fault it is. In other words, I’d ratehr trust God than man with salvation.
But enough of this, you already know exactly what you believe, so oh well.
Report comment to moderator
Note: Somehow I have ended up being the one defending / explaining many different aspects of this subject, including some that have nothing at all to do with the original subject. Enough of this; I’ve said more than enough. Goodbye.
Report comment to moderator
After the FBI had judged Anita Hill’s confidential statement of charges against Clarence Thomas as inconclusive, the Senate Judiciary Committee decided not to pursue the matter.
But her statement of outrageous charges was illegally leaked to reporters and, after a media frenzy developed, under pressure from liberal women’s groups and Democrats in Congress, Hill was summoned before the Judiciary Committee to testify, which turned proper and decent hearings into a circus and national disgrace for all decent women.
She is still revered and celebrated today by radical feminist groups as an alleged victim and symbol of sexual harrassment. Pitiful.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, I’ve been in and out with not much time. You have explained your position very well. Also, I clearly agree with your sense of futility in discussion with this Calvin critic.
Report comment to moderator
Since this thread has already gone off topic and into a discussion of “Calvinism,” I’ll just add something.
Cheryl said it very well, but I just wanted to address Luke15’s reference specifically to John 3:16, as if this verse somehow contradicts our beliefs. It doesn’t. The gospel is for everyone who believes–that’s not in dispute between you and us.
Also, I just completed Martin Luther’s The Bondage of the Will, a treatise that I’d recommend for all Christians. It’s certainly a clear reminder that God’s absolute sovereignty over salvation isn’t something unique to John Calvin. In fact, it’s absolutely foundational to the Protestant Reformation.
Report comment to moderator
Whatever I think of Anita Hill, Luke15, I have never and would never call her the vile and vicious name you smeared Clarance Thomas with.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark: Conan, if a married man who hires a prostitute becomes “one flesh” with her, then he has sinned. He has broken his vow and stands in desperate need of forgiveness. But what that sinner has done has nothing to do with what God (through Scripture) clearly teaches about God’s definition and intent for marriage.
Correct but irrelevant to the point. A married man who hires a prostitute is “one flesh” with both of the women. Therefore, the phrase “become one flesh” does not mean a man can be of one flesh with only one woman. Paul makes that very clear here.
Report comment to moderator
Neil: Conan, there is a very significant difference between God “allowing” polygamy and His “approving” it. There are many things that God does not approve but allows for a variety of reasons.
Why would God explicitly forbid such trivial things as eating shellfish and wearing mixed fibers in the Mosaic law and neglect to mention that he also doesn’t like polygamy or slavery?
Sorry, that reasoning just doesn’t pass muster. God gave the Jews 613 mitzvot. It’s simply not plausible that he would have given very specific and detailed rules about whom one may or may not have sex with, and under what circumstances, and when to abstain (such as during menstruation) and not include a ban on polygamy, if indeed he wanted to forbid polygamy.
Report comment to moderator
Ricky Weaver: I’ve got a surprise for you. Most males are “oriented” toward adultery. It is our faith that prevents us from acting on that impulse.
Actually, the vast majority of men are faithful to their wives, including the ones who don’t share your beliefs.
Most men avoid it by not really being inclined to do it, and by being decent human beings. If you really need the help of your God to avoid committing adultery, perhaps you should figure out why that is.
I can’t speak for women.
You can’t speak for most men, either.
Report comment to moderator
Conan @ 198. I need God’s help not to commit adultery because I am sinful. I am not a decent human being. I am a sinner saved by grace.
Report comment to moderator
There are three principals of Burkean Conservitism. I won’t go into all of them now, but one of them is “Loyalty to the nature of things.” This means that we must maintain God’s system, and follow His Design for how the world works, or trouble will ensue. It seems to me at least, that Liberalism does the very opposite. If there is a way to rebel against God’s nature of things, liberalsim will do it. From allowing gay marrige, to abortion, they actively seek to bring Christianity down around our ears.
Report comment to moderator
What seems “trivial” to you is, to God and to his covenant people, a profound picture of God’s very nature and plan. If the instructions weren’t given, and weren’t given explicitly, there would be no lesson.
But God’s revelation is progressive, and the disordered nature of polygamy was less apparent before the revelation of Christ and the church. And slavery is a much more complicated and nuanced issue than most contemporary Westerners acknowledge. But what seems to you to be self-evident, that we’re better off without slavery, is only self-evident because of the gospel. It was only within the context of Christendom that the evils of slavery were recognized, debated and discussed, and eventually acted upon. just
I’m not a man, but I have ears to hear and eyes to see. Our whole culture is obsessed with sex, and you can say, presumably with a straight face, that most men are faithful and monogamous–and that they are so by virtue of their innate “decency?” Apparently you haven’t yet heard about the pornography epidemic that’s been getting increasingly worse for the past few decades.
Report comment to moderator
In a way, gay rights, abortion, and debt are all branches of the same liberalist tree. We can’t give in to any of these sinful or wasteful practices, because if we give an inch, they will take a mile. Compromise is not an option. But we must also focus our attack on the Trunk of the tree, not on the branches. Like I said before, Liberalism seems to be the embodiment of the rebellion against God. And even in places where it isn’t plain sinfull, it usually is just so focused on the future, that it loses it’s grip on the past. Most liberalists want to create “freedom” by making everyone equal through micromanagment. It never works, and has never worked. The fact that most people today don’t see liberalism for what it is is either a sign of great marketing or just plain scary.
Report comment to moderator
Re polygamy: It isn’t a good idea, and in the New Testament elders and deacons are held to being a man with only one wife. But it seems as though in the Old Testament it wasn’t forbidden, though it was never God’s “ideal.”
Perhaps it wasn’t forbidden because in an era in which many men were killed in war or in dangerous occupations, too many women would have been without husbands if each woman had to have her own husband. (And being without a husband was not a good thing. She was left without anyone providing for her in many cases. Having many unattached women would have been troublesome for the whole culture.) Perhaps it wasn’t forbidden so that men could see for themselves it wasn’t really a very good idea. (There is no Old Testament story about polygamy that has no friction in it, usually tension between the wives.)
But the levirate law says that the brother of a man who died should take his brother’s widow and marry her . . . and it says nothing about his having to be single to do so. David was told that God had given him his wives, plural. God chose to use one man and four women to produce the twelve tribes of Israel. Etc. There is much evidence that it wasn’t forbidden early in earth history–just as incest wasn’t forbidden in the very early days of earth history.
That doesn’t mean it was a good idea, or God’s ideal. But it’s reading into the text to say it was “forbidden” in the Old Testament. There is no evidence of that.
Report comment to moderator
#194 Ree It contradicts your belief in that you have to try to make the word ‘world’ mean ‘elect’. God commands us to love our enemies but He doesn’t?
Report comment to moderator
Conan, your comment at #196 is convaluted and I can make no sense of it. Could be me. But I still think there are two ways that any reader gat get some wisdom and clarity on all this:
1. Just go read the passages in the Bible related to marriage (Matthew 19:4-6) and fidelity (1 Corinthains 6:15-20), prostitution (1 Corinthians 6:15-20) and on homosexuality (Romans 1, 1 Corinthian 6:9-11), etc. They speak for themselves clearly enough.
2. Or, read Conan’s comments and take the most opposite views you can decipher. Then you will have a much clearer and straighter understanding of the issues at hand.
Polygamy was common in ancient cultures. God chose to work His will in and through some flawed ancient peoples in flawed ancient cultures. The Bible tells the truth about the practice of polygamy in those cultures but that does not mean God specifically intended it or actively approved of polygamy itself. What God intended on marriage “from the beginning” is made clear in Genesis 1-2 and affirmed clearly by Jesus at Matthew 19:4-6, and it is not polygasmy.
Report comment to moderator
Ree: But God’s revelation is progressive, and the disordered nature of polygamy was less apparent before the revelation of Christ and the church.
In Christian theology, the disordered nature of just about anything would be less apparent before the revelation of Christ. That didn’t seem to stop God from explicitly forbidding theft, murder, adultery, wearing mixed fibers — 613 specific rules, but not one whisper against polygamy.
Really, that doesn’t strike you as unlikely?
Cheryl: (There is no Old Testament story about polygamy that has no friction in it, usually tension between the wives.)
There has never been any marriage anywhere, of any type, without some friction.
Polygamy was not something practiced by just the few whose stories are told in the Old Testament. It was the cultural norm of the time. The stories about polygamous marriages with friction would have been taken by the original audience as just stories about normal people in normal family configurations.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark: Conan, your comment at #196 is convaluted and I can make no sense of it. Could be me.
It could be you, yes.
In fact, it certainly is you, because there’s nothing convoluted about what I said.
Report comment to moderator
Conan – You imply that there is some inherent contradiction between polygamy in the OT and the NT. Yet Abraham married his half-sister and, 400 years later, the Mosaic law bans a man from marrying his half sister (Genesis 20:12, Leviticus 18:11). The same thing happens with divorce, the Mosaic law allows it, Christ forbids it (Deuternomy 24:1, Matthew 5:31-32). So, no, there is no contradiction in polygamy being permitted in the OT and banned in the NT. As we increase in the knowledge of the nature of God, so our responsibility to Him increases.
Report comment to moderator
Phos: It isn’t banned in the New Testament either. The closest it comes is in restricting positions of church authority to men with only one wife.
And that’s what’s called “the exception that proves the rule.” By specifying that men in certain positions must be married to only one wife, it implies that being married to more than one wife was common and acceptable, for everyone not in those particular church roles.
Report comment to moderator
If the definition of “marriage” continues to be expanded, my golf partners plan on marrying their clubs so that their health care plans will have to pay for the annual cost of regripping. I may marry a Learjet or a mansion which is badly in need of repair in order to take full advantage of Obamacare’s prohibition on discrimination based on a pre-existing condition.
Report comment to moderator
Conan – Divorce and marriage to another wife is adultery according to Christ, so how would keeping one wife and marrying another wife be any different. God created one man and one woman at first, not one man and two women, and it was this historical fact that Christ referred two when He stated that they two become one flesh. True marriage is between one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others – this has always been the view of the church since the apostles and has influenced every culture in which Christianity into contact with. I Corinthians 6:16 is the exception that proves that rule, since it is a logical proof of why Christians must not commit fornication.
Report comment to moderator
Unlikely how? God explicitly forbade that which he chose at that time in redemptive history to explicitly forbid and he did not forbid that which he did not choose to forbid. Polygamy (and slavery) are not consistent with the created order, but they were not forbidden. The things you listed were forbidden because God chose that time and those people to reveal something about Himself. The Christian world did come to recognize that slavery and polygamy, on the other hand, although never explicitly forbidden in Scripture, are inconsistent with the created order and, therefore, they came to be forbidden in the Christian world.
Yes, but the fact that it was acceptable and common doesn’t show that it’s consistent with God’s created order and should, therefore, remain acceptable in society. As Christianity took root, society progressed. We’re now in a post-Christian regression.
Report comment to moderator
Luke15,
“The world” means different things in different contexts in John, and there’s no exegetical defense for it meaning every single person without exception in this verse. James White exegetes John 3:16 in about as detailed and explicit a manner as I’ve seen if you’re interested. Scroll down to the John 3:16 portion of this letter to Dave Hunt if you’re interested.
John 3:16
I was certainly God’s enemy and he certainly loved me and redeemed me, so I don’t know what you’re talking about here.
Report comment to moderator
In Gen 3 God described marriage as: “a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife and they shall become one flesh.” That unique and committed one man/one woman relationship has always been God’s pattern for marriage. God has permitted people to try every alternative imaginable. To argue that since God has not specifically condemned a particular alternative does not mean that His original pattern has been, or ever was altered.
Adultery, (physical and spiritual) is repeatedly condemned throughout the Bible. It is a real stretch to suggest that simply marrying multiple spouses would make the relationships non-adulterous.
Report comment to moderator
Phos: Divorce and marriage to another wife is adultery according to Christ, so how would keeping one wife and marrying another wife be any different.
Because in a divorce, the first wife is sent away and denied marital rights that are given to the second wife. In a polygamous arrangement, all wives have those rights simultaneously.
God created one man and one woman at first, not one man and two women, and it was this historical fact that Christ referred two when He stated that they two become one flesh.
The first recorded multiple marriage in the Bible is that of Lamech, in Genesis 4. After that it’s not mentioned again for a while. But nowhere is it even hinted that it’s not an acceptable arrangement. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God even declares that he gave David multiple wives.
Also note in that story, David had married several wives already. Nathan doesn’t come to pronounce God’s displeasure with him until he takes another man’s wife (Bathsheba.) If marrying multiple wives was a grave error, doesn’t it seem like Nathan would have spoken about that long before?
True marriage is between one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others – this has always been the view of the church since the apostles
Really?
Martin Luther:
Augustine supported polygamy, but only for procreation and only when the custom of the land allowed it. He considered polygamy in his own time to be a “sin against custom” but NOT a sin against nature. He wrote:
John Milton, of Paradise Lost fame, defended the morality of polygamy with exacting reason. One short excerpt:
http://home.comcast.net/~walkswithastick/DeDoctrina.html#Polygamy
Report comment to moderator
Just curious…. Conan, how would your wife feel about you taking additional wives? How would you feel about your wife taking additional husbands? You are arguing that the Bible (God) supports polygamy; do you support it in your own life?
Report comment to moderator
Conan,
So you’ve responded to Phos’s argument, but since I and others here (and now your own witnesses from church history) have been saying, polygamy is not forbidden in Scripture. (And neither is slavery, under certain conditions). Yet Christendom came to reject them both, not on the basis of an absolute command, but on the basis of their inconsistency with a Christ-centered view of reality.
But to make a blanket assertion that these authors you cited “supported” polygamy is misleading, at best. If you want to have a discussion, I’d be happy to do that.
Report comment to moderator
As a physician, I think gender and sexual preference are largely formed by genetics and the biochemical/ hormonal in utero environment . I think few people “choose” or experiment with these.
Biblically, same gender couples are sinners. But, when two monogamous people of the same gender want to live in a loving relationship (although not sanctioned by the Church/Biblically)
and hope for the same legal covenant as married hetero couples, I do not see why they cannot have such a legal union. What is wrong with “Garraige” (Gay marraige). I always understood marriage referred to the union of opposite sexes. I do not want to deny any couple the misery, torment and having to divide all assets, possessions etc as a divorcing hetero couple may. I thought thee marriage issue in the rainbow community was about assets, power of attorney, being able to health care guardian or power of attorney for a dying or ailing partner etc….all the rights a partner of same sex may not have protected presently under the law.
Report comment to moderator
Conan: Augustine agreed with me:”That the good purpose of marriage, however, is better promoted by one husband with one wife, than by a husband with several wives, is shown plainly enough by the very first union of a married pair, which was made by the Divine Being Himself, with the intention of marriages taking their beginning therefrom, and of its affording to them a more honourable precedent.” – On Marriage and Concupiscience
Luther was a great man, but he compromised the Scripture on many points, and his permission to Philip of Hesse to take a second wife was one of them. Milton was a great poet, not a great theologian, and his views on divorce and polygamy were regarded by some as heresy even in his day.
You acknowledge that monogamy is required for church elders. To put it in the words of Tertullian (c.160-225AD): ”
Come, now, you who think that an exceptional law of monogamy is made with reference to bishops, abandon withal your remaining disciplinary titles, which, together with monogamy, are ascribed to bishops. Refuse to be “irreprehensible, sober, of good morals, orderly, hospitable, easy to be taught;” nay, indeed, (be) “given to wine, prompt with the hand to strike, combative, money-loving, not ruling your house, nor caring for your children’s discipline,”— no, nor “courting good renown even from strangers.” For if bishops have a law of their own teaching monogamy, the other (characteristics) likewise, which will be the fitting concomitants of monogamy, will have been written (exclusively) for bishops. With laics, however, to whom monogamy is not suitable, the other (characteristics) also have nothing to do. (Thus), Psychic, you have (if you please) evaded the bonds of discipline in its entirety! Be consistent in prescribing, that “what is enjoined upon certain (individuals) is not enjoined upon all;” or else, if the other (characteristics) indeed are common, but monogamy is imposed upon bishops alone, (tell me), pray, whether they alone are to be pronounced Christians upon whom is conferred the entirety of discipline?” – On Monogamy
Report comment to moderator
#213 Ree Thanks but no thanks on James White. I’ve read all his stuff and his work on John 3:16 is nonsense. He once said that in the rape of a 10 yr old girl, God decreed it AND caused it and that those that even said God allowed it were too emotional and God-haters, the same kind of terms he used to describe those who disagreed with him on John 3:16. I’ve been involved in rescuing under-age sex-slaves in Cambodia for 13 years and I think that White needs to repent if he wants to enter the kingdom of God.
So, God loves all His enemies? White’s take on ‘world’ is ludicrous. There are thousands of Greek scholars, including me, who can take him apart on this.
Report comment to moderator
Luke15,
Yeah, and he’s obviously wrong that his critics responses are appeals to emotion and not to exegesis, huh. I mean, just look at your well-reasoned, exegetically unassailable response.
“James White supports child rape, and I could beat him up in the Greek studies department with one hand tied behind my back if I wanted to. I just don’t want to.”
Can’t argue with that, I guess.
Report comment to moderator
Phos,
Luther was not a perfect man, but he’s also one of the most slandered figures in church history. I’d urge you not to take what you hear about him at face value.
This link, in response to Roman Catholic criticism of Luther’s response to the Philip of Hesse incident is a good one.
Report comment to moderator
Ree- Thanks for the link, Luther always seemed to take impulsive action and then realize his mistake later. Don’t misunderstand me, when I said Luther was a great man, I meant it. However, there is not a Christian in history that didn’t have their weak points. Luther, Calvin, C.S. Lewis, Augustine, Wesley, Edwards, Whitefield, Moody, Spurgeon – they all are patterns for us in many ways, but care must be taken to always check their teachings with the Word of God.
Report comment to moderator
#221 Ree I didn’t say that White supports child rape. I said that he said that God decrees and causes it and anyone who disagrees with him is too emotional and a god-hater. It’s on the web, go look it up. It was on the Bible Answerman show.I didn’t say any of the rest of it. BTW, do YOU think that God decrees and causes every evil deed..? The young ladies we rescue are raped anywhere from 5-10 times a night. Am I wrong to be emotional about that? Do I hate God because of that?
Report comment to moderator
No Calvinist would call it wrong to be emotional about evil, and it’s certainly right to rescue the victims. But our theology shouldn’t be based on our emotions, but on Scripture.
How do you feel about people going to Hell? I’m guessing it makes you emotional. It certainly does me. So should we base our theology on our emotions and eliminate Hell from our theology?
There are some things about God that Scripture reveals that we can’t fully understand and we can’t always reconcile with our emotions. God’s sovereignty over evil is one of them. But unless you’re an “open theist” who rejects God’s omnipotence and omniscience and, instead, worships a God who’s thoroughly subject to the whim’s of man, your theology doesn’t escape the same charges you make against Calvinists, anyway.
Report comment to moderator
REE # 225 … very well said!!!
Report comment to moderator
Neil Evans #216: I would not practice it in my own life, no. But that has no bearing on whether or not there’s a case against it from the Bible.
Ree #217: Yet Christendom came to reject them both, not on the basis of an absolute command, but on the basis of their inconsistency with a Christ-centered view of reality.
In what way is polygamy inconsistent?
Slavery is, yes .. but slavery was still accepted in America as recently as 149 years ago, and Christians were as likely to argue for it from the Bible as against it. So the realization dawned very very slowly in that case.
Report comment to moderator
Conan, again, I’m sincerely curious… Why, would you not practice polygamy? What thinking goes into that decision; where did your ideas come from?
I think there is some possible connection to how the Bible portrays polygamy. If the Bible has influenced our culture and our culture has influenced our thinking then there is some connection.
Report comment to moderator
I would not because I am somewhat the jealous type. I couldn’t relinquish feelings of possessiveness enough to be comfortable with another husband, not would I want to require my wife to deal with another wife.
But, I have over the years known a handful of people who practiced polyamory — triads with either two men or two women — and for them it worked very well. I do not insist that my experiences or feelings must apply to others, so if it works for them, that fine, I just don’t think it would work for me.
The polygamy practiced in the Bible was in a male-centric culture where a man could have multiple wives and the women were expected to accept it. Their feelings were not part of the equation. Our society has changed because women have become unwilling to put up with that, not because of any divine command.
Report comment to moderator
#225 Ree But that’s exactly what White said. Look it up.
Report comment to moderator
#217 Ree American slavery was not ended by a change in view. It was ended by a brutal war. You’ll still find many Christians, especially in the South, who believe that slavery was good and ordained by God. The only folks who fought to end slavery were the 190,000 blacks who quickly saw an opportunity to free their brethren. R. L. Dabney was and is a greatly honored Calvinist theologian (but not by me) from Virginia. After the war he wrote ‘In Defence of Virginia’. You can find it on-line. There’s not one chance he’ll be in Heaven.
Report comment to moderator
#231 “There’s not one chance he’ll be in Heaven.”
The Pharisees probably said that about the Thief on the Cross. They certainly said it about the woman caught in adultery. And they were oh so thankful that they were not like “that sinner over there.” Our Human nature has not changed.
Report comment to moderator
Neal,
Thanks.
Conan,
The New Testament reveals marriage as a type of Christ and the church. Paul says in his letter to the Ephesians,
One man and one woman coming together as one flesh is the pattern for marriage. A man shall leave his father and his mother to cleave unto his wife, not his wives. And the fact that lifelong monogamous marriage is a requirement for church leaders shows that it’s the ideal. People in polygamous marriages weren’t commanded to put away all but their first wives in order to become Christians, the way adulterers were commanded to stop their adulterous behavior because polygamy isn’t forbidden. But neither is it good according to the ultimate standard, which is Christ. But the fact that, as long as we’ve been in discussions, you’ve been unable to comprehend the Biblical standard as anything other than a list of rules keeps you from seeing this.
I won’t dispute that it was realized slowly, but slowly or quickly, what’s your point? God is patient.
Report comment to moderator
Luke15,
I don’t have to look it up because I don’t doubt that he said something like that. My beef is the way you twist it be implication. I can assure you that James White and every other God-fearing Calvinist is as appalled and as grieved by evil as you are. But what we learn from Scripture is that God has as purpose in which evil is ordained for ultimate good. This is plainly seen throughout Scripture, and most pointedly in the crucifixion of Christ.
It was ended by both. And in Britain it was ended without the brutal war. It seems fairly apparent to me that it would’ve ended here, as well, even without the brutal war.
I can think of no proper response to such a comment or to one who would make such a comment.
Report comment to moderator
#232 Neil Read it for yourself. There’s very clear Scripture about his eternal state. Read it and see what you think.
Report comment to moderator
#234 Ree have you read and listened to White’s comments yet? If you haven’t then you better hold your peace. He said that God decrees and causes EVERY single evil deed and that if we disagree with him you’re too emotional or even a God-hater.
Re: the end of slavery in the U.S. You are incorrect.
Re: The blacks who fought in the Civil War. You are also incorrect. You really need to bone up on your American history. You’re really quite ignorant and make us look bad.
Report comment to moderator
Luke, You have gone too far in your condemnation of Dr. Dabney.. He had an amazing career as a chaplain, pastor, writer and professor. He even served briefly as Stonewall Jackson’s chief of staff. I would read Christ in the Camps before I judged Dr Dabney. This is an account of the revivals that swept through The Army of Northern Virginia. Dabney was active in these revivals. Who can say with certainty what our position on slavery would have been had we been born 150 years earlier.
Report comment to moderator
#237 Ricky Have you read ‘In Defence of Virginia’?
Report comment to moderator
It’s so amusing reading everyone debate about the undeniable truth already elucidated in the actual article. Seriously now, why do people think they can argue against a published author who is indubitably fluent and informed in the subject matter? Homosexuality is wrong, same-sex “marriage” is wrong, both have devastating psychological and sociological effects on our culture, and the Bible is irrefutable. End of story.
Report comment to moderator
Luke @238 I’m reading it right now. Thanks for letting me know it is available on the web. I had previously read several articles by Dr. Dabney, but this book is really interesting.
Report comment to moderator
Luke,
I just told you that I don’t have to hear James White state the Biblical position on God’s sovereignty over evil. If you want to argue against his exegesis, argue on Scriptural grounds, not on some sense of personal disgust. I’m not interested in hearing about how horrible you feel about it.
And I didn’t say anything about the black soldiers who fought in the Civil War. My amazement was at your insistence that it was only black soldiers who fought against slavery. That’s not only a statement of ignorance, but a rather uniquely bizarre one at that. I’ve lately been in the process of typing and editing the memoirs of my own great great grandfather, who was as white as I am, and was an officer in a regiment of black soldiers, so I’m certainly not disputing that there were black soldiers fighting for the North.
Report comment to moderator
#241 Ree you’re a coward. Above, Ricky’s reading the article I suggested and then we’ll have a spirited discussion I’m sure. But I’ve made some serious charges against White and you don’t have the integrity to check it out. BTW, White does not do exegesis. I know what it is and can do it but he doesn’t. He’s a classic proof-texter, citing a few verses and stories that have now been used for about 500 years. There are numerous good articles on the web refuting Calvinism and White’s brand in particular. Are you afraid to investigate?
Northern whites DID NOT as a whole fight to end slavery. Any researcher knows that. They fought to preserve the Union. Kudos to your grandfather, though. I grew up across the street from a man whose great-granddad was in the 2nd Kansas Colored. I’m doing a book on him and the 2nd KS Colored. Most whites assigned to lead blacks were disgusted by the thought and only after seeing them fight were they convinced that maybe blacks should be free.
Report comment to moderator
Luke, I do find some irony in the fact that the first 94 pages of Dr. Dabney’s book (that you are sending him to Hell for writing) are spent supporting a primary point which you have made on this thread (Yankees were not consistently against slavery).
Nevertheless, I thank you for the reference. You have inspired me to read other 19th century books.
Report comment to moderator
#234 Ricky I’m not a Yankee apologist. Can you think of a Scripture or two that might cause me to say that he wasn’t a Christian?
Report comment to moderator
Luke15,
Your “serious charges” against James White are that he’s a Calvinist. That he believes God decrees all things. That he believes that hating the God in Whom he believes–the God who decrees all things–is hating God. If you really want me to look something he said up, you can give me a reference, but since I don’t have any problem with what you say he said, there’s no reason for me to cross-check it. I’m taking you at your word, and I’ve made that quite clear. What do you expect me to get out of looking it up and reading it for myself?
I also read some of the work you cited by Dabney. And like Ricky, I don’t know what you’re sending him to Hell for. For arguing that Scripture doesn’t condemn slavery as an institution? It doesn’t.
Sorry, Luke15, but your offended sensibilities just aren’t an argument. And you can claim that you’re the best Greek scholar and the most gifted exegete around all you like, but that doesn’t convince me of anything either. And I’ve seen plenty of back and forth between Calvinists and Arminians over the past ten years or so, and so far, I haven’t seen anything approaching Biblical exegesis from the Arminian side. Mostly just outrage at and slander against Calvinists. And like I said much earlier in this thread, the doctrines you hate so much aren’t just taught by Calvin, but by Luther as well. In fact, they were foundational to the whole Protestant Reformation.
I’ve made some points about the ramifications of your own theology that you’ve failed to consider, or at least to answer. So I don’t see any reason to continue the discussion. But as for your work rescuing sex slaves, I commend you for that.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's Community section to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!