Rachel Maddow and my lesson in civility
When one writes about moral convictions, it’s probably a good idea to consistently live up to them. That way people can still disagree with your convictions, but they have a difficult time accusing you of hypocrisy.
Last week at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington, I failed to live up to one of my highest principles. Here’s the background. The story about the Obama administration’s attempt to force Catholic and other faith-based institutions to offer employees free contraception in their healthcare coverage was still fresh. I was asked to be on a panel before what looked like a crowd of about 1,000 conservatives, hungry for “red meat.”
A clip was played from Rachel Maddow’s MSNBC program. It featured her commenting on the subject. I stupidly said before thinking, “I think she’s the best argument in favor of her parents using contraception.” I then added, “and all the rest of the crowd at MSNBC, too, for that matter.”
It didn’t matter that far worse things have been said in print and on TV about me. I am not supposed to behave like that. I co-wrote a book with my liberal Democratic friend Bob Beckel called Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That Is Destroying America. We also write a column together for USA Today. One of the principles in which I believe is not to engage in name-calling, which, to my shame, I did.
The next morning I felt bad about it, so I called Ms. Maddow to apologize. It wasn’t one of those meaningless “if I’ve offended anyone …” apologies; it was heartfelt. I had embarrassed myself and was a bad example to those who read my column and expect better from me.
Maddow could not have been more gracious. She immediately accepted my apology. On her show she said publicly, “I completely believe his apology. I completely accept his apology.” To be forgiven by one you have wronged is a blessing, it’s even cleansing.
Politics has always been a contact sport. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went at each other like the worst of enemies, using some of the most outrageous and slanderous language. I don’t have bona fides equal to their founding of America, so there is nothing of similar magnitude on which I can fall back.
Maddow also accepted my invitation to lunch and we will soon meet in New York. I am looking forward to it. Since the incident, which, of course, garnered a mini-tornado of media and blogosphere coverage, I have watched a couple of her shows. Without engaging in any qualifiers, she is a strong and competent advocate for her position. Why do so many of us only watch programs that reinforce what we already believe? Where is the growth in that? Whatever else she may or may not be, she is my fellow American.
I have many liberal friends acquired over the years. They are impossible to avoid in the media, but I don’t wish to avoid them. They became my friends because I stopped seeing them as labels and began seeing them as persons with innate worth. That is what I failed to do in my first response to Rachel Maddow. One might expect a pro-lifer like me to support the birth of fellow human beings and not suggest they should never have been born.
I expect to like Rachel Maddow because my instinct is to separate the value of a person from his or her political position. For some strange reason (demon possession, perhaps) I failed to do that at CPAC.
So, apology delivered and accepted and lunch will soon be served. I’m trying to decide whose career might be hurt more should someone take a picture of us enjoying a meal and—it is to be hoped, at least by me—each other.
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back to top91 Comments to “Rachel Maddow and my lesson in civility”
I’ve noticed that most of the flubs I make is when I want to be cute or otherwise impress someone. MSNBC is just a couple of clicks down from FoxNews. I have to pass CNN to get there, but that’s easy. I often go there, but get angry at the silly arguments I hear about women’s health etc. So, I go back to Fox. They are concervative, but really are more balanced than the othere. They have several liberals on their staff.
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“Why do so many of us only watch programs that reinforce what we already believe? Where is the growth in that? Whatever else she may or may not be, she is my fellow American.”
Mr. Thomas, I think that was a wonderful apology. Although there is a point where we must “come apart and be ye separate”, I do think it’s a teeny tiny world when Christians only want to hear from those that agree with them. The same could be said for conservatives or liberals. What merit is there to gather in a circle and pat each other on the back?
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Next article: Cal apologizes to Ron Paul for calling him a “crazy aunt.”
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Good for you and Ms. Maddow for the way you handled this but the reason I avoid media from the other side is that it is very frustratng to hear an argument that a 12 year old could take apat go unchallenged and know that people are buying it.
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Mr. Thomas, I mentally shake hands with you for this article. All our tongues get away from us now and again. It is a courageous person who admits when it happens and makes amends.
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Yes, I also applaud Ms. Maddow for her graciousness.
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This is a good example for all of us. I agree with Chas about why we so often make these cute statements. Another is that we practice it, too often, amongst ‘ourselves’. I wince at some of the things I hear said. Often things are said in jest, but we should beware about what we find amusing.
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One of the things that Cal Thomas might like about Rachel Maddow is her interview methodology. She respects ideas over slogans. She’ll offer her full overview of an opposing position, invite criticism, and give her guest the last word. Typically, she begins by saying, “Here’s your wiki: Is what I say about you incorrect?” During the interview, she treats you like a PhD candidate defending your dissertation. Of course, she wants to deliver satisfaction to her liberal audience, but she won’t turn you into a cheap foil for slogans. Afterwards, you might wish you had a do-over, but you can’t complain that her methods were invalid.
My only complaint is that she sometimes giggles too much. Now, lesbians are almost always better company than anybody else, but I rarely find much to laugh about in our political contests. However, lots of people love her mannerisms.
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I usually find myself chuckling along with Maddow even when I think she’s left the business of news behind. She’s not shy about ribbing Democrats, and yeah her interviews are always great. You can get a better sense of what a conservative believe by seeing a Rachel Maddow interview than by seeing him on FOX.
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The world’s Most Intelligent and Powerful Person related to others from a position of humility and respect. We tend to think that when Jesus spoke authoritatively (casting moneychangers out of the Temple / speaking “woe” to religious leaders) that He did it harshly. I think His heart was weeping for them recognizing that they did not know what they were doing.
Telling (or acting like) people with whom we have deep life differences that they are beneath us is both blind and counterproductive.
This reminds me of the phrase that describes The Gospel as simply “one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.”
Thank you, Cal Thomas, for this good example.
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Dont know if he reads these, but if he did here’s what I’d say:
Cal, I have long admired your work from the days you worked with Jerry Falwell. I can now say this episode reveals way more about you than anything you’ve ever done or said. Proud of you. The Lord used this episode to reacquaint you with humility. Count you as a genuine bro in Christ.
I recall a similar apology made by Gary Bauer. I like Chas have had similar moments when I was trying to be cute. Humor can be generational/situational as I’ve learned. Anywho..
Congressman Gerald Nadler was making an argument from the proChoice side. His comments implied the value of a living person was conditioned on the size or level of maturity developmt.
Bauer made what I took to be a harmless mildly funny remark that played up Nadler’s considerable girth.
He was later remorseful about it.
I dont know for sure if Maddow is lesbian. (Long alleged by others) I’ve never seen her show where she put that out first and foremost. A good journalist as Rather pointed out should NEVER allow him or herself to become the story.
To anyone who has ever talked to a gal who’s endured an abortion or miscarriage there really isnt much you can mine from the experience to have anything funny emerge from it.
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#5, #6
Dittos and amen!
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Way to go Cal! Like SAWGUNNER, I too have long admired you, and your excellent work. I saw you live in Oklahoma City several years ago, it was rewarding.
I will pray that your meeting with Rachel Maddow is constructive and fruitful to you both in every way.
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Nobody here has remarked about Maddow’s good-natured acceptance of the apology. See, liberals are good natured, rational, and admirable.
It’s hard for y’all to admit that since the ultimate nuke in the conservative arsenal is ad hominem: you’re going to hell. This is your strength and your fatal flaw.
But to be fair, it’s not so hard for liberals to forgive. Discount Maddow’s graciousness. For us, apology and forgiveness are matters of social and personal responsibility. Accepting an apology is etiquette not metaphysics. We blame your rude attacks on your bad ideology, your patriarchy, homophobia, antifeminism, and authoritarian myths. We tend not to assign blame to individuals when things go wrong. Cal Thomas is a fellow victim, not the perp.
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Good on you, Cal Thomas. Thank you for the gracious example.
We all know that our attempts to be funny before a crowd of like-minded people can lead us to say stupid things.
I don’t watch Maddow often, but when I do, I am usually impressed by her civility toward even dissenting guests and the fairness of her interviews. I appreciate honest debate that lets a person air his views over out-shouting and mic-cutting and using the guest as a stooge while you preach to your faithful audience.
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I often go there, but get angry at the silly arguments I hear about women’s health etc
Hmm…Two nights ago Rachel Maddow highlighted a bill steaming toward passage in Virginia that requires every woman who is considering an abortion to undergo and view not just an ultrasound, but a transvaginal ultrsound, which involves just what it sounds like. This is the state requiring an invasive uncomfortable procedure involving sexual organs. And you think it is silly to bring this to the public’s attention?
If so, kindly drop your trousers, bend over and spr…
And, by the way, any competent physician will also tell you that there lots of health reasons, other than contraception, that women are prescribed birth control pills. They range from acne to a variety of hormonal imbalances. Yet the R’s are now trying to prevent any group insurance policy from paying for them. Maybe they’ll graaciously make an exception if every woman submits to a full color nude photo to be published in the paper to demonstrate that, yes, she does have severe acne and does have a reason for needing to take some pills?
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Nobody here has remarked about Maddow’s good-natured acceptance of the apology.
Re-read the comments.
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14. See post 4, 6, 9 and12. Do you even read the other remarks?
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I didn’t even know who Rachel Maddow was until this article – hadn’t heard of MSNBC until reading this blog.
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Thank you so much for sharing, Cal. Didn’t James warn of us all the troubles that our tongues (our words!) get us into? Out of the same fountain flowing fresh water and salt….blessings and cursings? I’m so glad that, though you sinned, you didn’t let the Enemy have the victory. You didn’t allow him to gloat over you and beat you up. You were disappointed, but certainly not shocked that you were capable of such a thing. No, you saw yourself as you really are: a sinner who sins. You remembered that your righteousness is not by your own merit or doing, but is instead, that beautiful robe of Christ’s that he has covered you with. That kind of knowledge, the knowledge of the state of our heart apart from Christ, made it easier to do what you did: to admit wrongdoing and to humbly, sincerely, ask for forgiveness. Certainly, Rachel Maddow’s gracious response is remarkable and encouraging. I love when the Lord takes what we (or others) have meant for evil and surprises us with the fact that HE meant it for good!
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A hypothetical question here, which Rachel didn’t even raise with respect to the Virginia transvaginal legislation:
Assume a married woman has been diagnosed with a fetus with gross defects—two heads, no arms, extra leg, etc. Multiple physicians have told her she has virtually no chance of carrying to term. She wants an abortion. Her attitude is basically “get this abomination out of my body”.
Does anybody here really think it is an a) fair or b)constitutional use of government power to require her to get up in the stirrups, have an imaging device inserted and then be required to view the images of this horribly deformed fetus?
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I occasionally get my tongue in front of my eye teeth and can’t see what I’m saying.
As already remarked it’s mostly when I’m trying to reply with a cute remark.
–Ken Bland
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A good hypothetical, Aracadia, and one worth considering. I’ll leave it to others to answer it, because my cred around here is pretty low anyway.
But you should likewise consider the opposing hypothetical:
Suppose a young professional woman decides, after some weeks of pregnancy, that she doesn’t want this baby after all. The ticking of her biological clock had led her to decide to keep it, but after further consideration, she thinks it would be too much of an imposition on her career and social life.
The third trimester fetus in her body may in fact be a human being, right? (Or do you know for a fact that it’s not?) She doesn’t know whether it is or not, and right now she’s not thinking about that. Her attitude is basically “get this burden off my back.”
There exists the technology to show this woman the baby she is about to kill. Even if we grant that the fetus’s status as “person” or “not a person” is so open to debate that a woman is within her rights to terminate it either way, do you really think it fair not to require the woman to see what she’s destroying before she destroys it? It seems a “due diligence” issue to me. If you’re determined to kill it (and we’ve said that’s your right), you should at least know what it is you’re killing.
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Please let us not let this good discussion about civil conversation be sidetracked by a hypothetical question concerning abortion.
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Arcadia:
First, I want to say that I have happily been prescribed birth control pills for severe endometriosis (where were these wonderful pills all of my life?). Also, I don’t think it is necessary for them to be covered by my insurance. I will gladly pay for them myself, if need be.
Secondly, I have tried for years to get pregnant, and I have been given the incredible gift of an adopted daughter. I will say that, were I that woman (however unlikely) with a “horribly deformed fetus” growing in my womb, first and foremost, that so-called deformity would be no less than my own child.
Thirdly, thank God my daughter’s birth mom saw her as an individual human being with the right to live, whatever “defects” or “monstrosities” she may or may not have. What a gift she gave us in her courage and sacrifice. I grieve that there are not more girls (yes, a very young girl) like her.
Fourthly, perhaps it is not “fair” or “constitutional” to have we woman forced to endure such egregious intrusions into our bodies for the sake of recognizing that we carry humans there and not monstrosities or “blobs of tissue,” however many arms or legs those blobs may possess. I think it is rather unfair and unconstitutional to have one’s own flesh and blood ripped from limb to limb within her womb as some kind of perverse, dehumanizing and utterly degrading “choice.”
And by the way, kudos to both Cal AND Rachel Maddow for their exceedingly humility and graciousness.
I mean to ill will toward you, Arcadia. Thank you for the comments you have made in the past. I just find this one particularly grievous. Best to you.
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Arcadia, How would those multiple physicians know about those defects? Wouldn’t they have already performed the requisite sonograms?
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Worldreader: I am glad that you can pay for those medications. Many can’t. Why should they suffer? (And, by the way, who is going to pay the taxes to support that severely disabled child if the fetus beats the overwhelming odds and makes it to term?)
Also please note that your answer assumes “personhood” for the fetus. Reasonable minds may disagree there.
No offense taken. Sometimes I feel one must call a spade a spade and make it clear what legislation really means.
L Shaffer: There are other forms of sonograms and x-rays where dx can be made. This legislation MANDATES the invasive one. In all cases. An amendment to strike this parrticular invasive procedure in favor of others was rejected by the heavily Republican R House in Virginia.
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Note that Cal Thomas still strenuously disagrees with Rachel Maddow on most issues, while respecting her as a person. He certainly is far from embracing the post-modern delusion that truth is merely a matter of narrative.
As to Rachel Maddow herself, she has lately quite unfairly mocked Mitt Romney’s statement about not caring for the poor, while paying no attention to the context of his statement that the poor are decently taken care of by our safety net and that if the safety net has some holes he would be glad to fix them.
I’ve watched Ms. Maddow a few times and regard her as a typical fundamentalist liberal with a rather vacuous mind, perfectly suited to MSNBC.
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Arcadia,
1) In order to find out that the child was horribly deformed, the requisite ultrasounds have already been done.
2) Exceptions make poor policy. The vast (VAST) majority of abortions are done on perfectly healthy babies. Exceptions should be dealt with as exceptions; they should not be what the law is based upon.
3) I don’t agree with the invasive ultrasound requirement. Most women can have a regular non-invasive ultrasound done, and get the same results (no, the picture won’t be as clear in the beginning but it will be clear enough). So, I would not be in favor of the transvaginal ultrasound requirement.
So, if we rewrote the law to make it non-invasive, you’d support it … right?
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Based on what happened to Rush Limbaugh (who had a hypothetical conversation, where he was actually purporting to show the opposite of what he was accused of) taken out of context, I have not noticed Liberals to be very forgiving people in general. I don’t know where you come with some of this stuff, Arcadia.
However, I thought this article was a great example on BOTH sides of how to handle something like this.
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Re – Ultrasound law: Ultrasounds for every pregnancy is a good idea. A transvaginal ultrasound is a bad idea, not only is it instrusive but it could increase the risk of infection, possibly even premature labour if done incorrectly – not that likely, but it is similar to a couple of labour induction methods.
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At 29 and 31, please, in a thread about civility, let us not get bogged down in a fervent debate about the intricacies of pregnancy ultrasounds.
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Bravo, Cal Thomas! Brava, Rachel Maddow!
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Neil Evans #24: “Please let us not let this good discussion about civil conversation be sidetracked by a hypothetical question concerning abortion.”
I wholeheartedly agree.
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I rode my hobby horse to the wrong party. Sorry for overlooking #4, #6, and #12 in my haste. Also, apologies to MACRUTABAGA and KBELLS for putting them to the inconvenience of correcting my comment, which I retract.
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Scroop Moth, thank you for your gracious apology.
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36. Ditto
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All things considered, it doesn’t matter. She is not to be trusted with any true apology the split second your back is turned or the camera is off of her or any of the rest of the leftist weasels and snakes on the lying msnbc.
If it weren’t for double standards, Democrats, Progressives and Leftists would have no standards at all.
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Sails: As to Rachel Maddow herself, she has lately quite unfairly mocked Mitt Romney’s statement about not caring for the poor, while paying no attention to the context of his statement that the poor are decently taken care of by our safety net and that if the safety net has some holes he would be glad to fix them.
I would agree with you here except for one thing: Late last year, Romney ran an ad showing Obama in the 2008 campaign saying “If we keep talking about the economy, we’re going to lose.”
That clip was taken out of context. Obama had actually said that someone in the McCain campaign had made that statement. Romney’s campaign cut out the part where Obama said “Someone from the McCain campaign actually said…” to make it appear Obama’s comment on the economy referred to his own campaign.
When people called Romney on it, his spokesperson insisted it was fair even though it was very obviously deliberately deceptive.
When Romney approved that ad, he lost all right to complain about being taken out of context.
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“I have watched a couple of her shows. Without engaging in any qualifiers, she is a strong and competent advocate for her position. Why do so many of us only watch programs that reinforce what we already believe? Where is the growth in that? Whatever else she may or may not be, she is my fellow American.”
First, it feels strange to be lectured by Cal about expanding one’s horizons when he’s only watched TWO … I repeat, TWO of her shows.
It does not matter how strong or competent someone is for their position. Name any of the world’s worst despots and you will find similar qualities. I watch Maddow and Matthews and all the other Democratic shills on MSNBC and CNN ALL the time. It is like a hobby, trying to compare what they say to reality and observe the myth-making machine in full production.
What Maddow engages in is not lying per se’ since her statements in isolation are generally factual by themselves. But coupled with snarky commentary, ridicule and rapid fire interleaving of disjointed contexts she creates an alternative reality where Democrats are all sweet and light and Republicans are evil incarnate.
Maddow and Matthews and so many of the commentators on MSNBC use carefully editing of the truth to distort the truth into something unrecognizable. That is the entire purpose of those networks. It is why they exist. This is what Cal was originally commenting on, but because he misspoke, now he has to pretend that Maddow is somewhat legitimate and go sit in the news media’s version of a time-out.
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Maddow does what Jon Stewart does, the only difference being that Stewart can occasionally be funny.
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Scroop says:
Sorry Scroop, but that has NOT been my experience. Neither Liberals or Conservatives have a monopoly on being rude and crude… And if you don’t believe me, you should rethink your position and just keep your eyes open.
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Conan, at 39, the Romney campaign disclosed from the beginning the McCain context of that quote. Romney in defending the ad remarked as follows:
“It was instead to point out what’s sauce for the goose is now sauce for the gander,” Romney told reporters. “He spoke about the economy being a huge burden for John McCain. This ad points out, guess what, it’s now your turn. The same lines you used on John McCain are now going to be used on you, which is that this economy is going to be your albatross.”
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No Sails, they didn’t. When the ad first ran, it said nothing about McCain, just showed the edited video clip of Obama. It does appear they quoted the full context in a press release, but the ad that ran on TV did not.
When caught, instead of admitting they were being deceptive, they doubled-down and defended the deception.
That makes any words out of Romney’s mouth fair game for the same treatment, in my view.
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Scroop Moth, at 14: For us [liberals], apology and forgiveness are matters of social and personal responsibility. Accepting an apology is etiquette not metaphysics
You’re becoming quite the comic of late. The liberals from the time he first ran for president viciously smeared GeorgeW. Bush without a hint of apology.
Among the worst of this, the liberals conducted an egregious ad hominem campaign to denigrate George W Bush’s intelligence. In fact he was and is among the best read presidents in American history. Starting at Yale, where he majored in history, he became an inveterate reader of first-class non-fiction.
Karl Rove in a WSJ article remarked as follows:
Mr. Bush’s 2006 reading list shows his literary tastes. The nonfiction ran from biographies of Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Carnegie, Mark Twain, Babe Ruth, King Leopold, William Jennings Bryan, Huey Long, LBJ and Genghis Khan to Andrew Roberts’s “A History of the English Speaking Peoples Since 1900,” James L. Swanson’s “Manhunt,” and Nathaniel Philbrick’s “Mayflower.” Besides eight Travis McGee novels by John D. MacDonald, Mr. Bush tackled Michael Crichton’s “Next,” Vince Flynn’s “Executive Power,” Stephen Hunter’s “Point of Impact,” and Albert Camus’s “The Stranger,” among others.
I’ll grant that we conservatives have been rather unkind to Obama, though your claim about the liberals is pure bunkum.
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#32
If you don’t like it, don’t comment on it.
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I also do not want to get bogged down in an abortion discussion, however I do know some cases similar to what Arcadia is talking about.
I know a young man with no legs and a deformed arm. He is a wonderful person and lives for the Lord. (This is not the other wonderful person, who is very similar and on youtube.)
I knew a young women who had multiple birth defects; could not walk, talk or even swallow. Her family loved her, as did many, many others, until she died in her early twenties. Doctors predicted she would die much earlier. Her parents still grieve her death—-not her life. Much good came from her life, btw.
I know a woman who was hounded and hounded by her doctor to get an abortion, when her fetus was known to have a severe defect and expected to die shortly after birth. She kept refusing (it was a 10 month gestation), but the hounding was the most painful thing for her. Her baby did die and she never regretted waiting to deliver.
I could go on and on. I do have one question for those who argue for Personhood. So many of these people say we cannot base our laws on religious or spiritual criteria, yet amazingly, this is one area they appeal to that. Science tells us the fetus etc. is as human as all the rest of us.
I am not going to continue the abortion discussion, but I do want others to know there are alternatives to destroying human beings no matter how badly their physical defects may be.
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#46, I’ll comment as I please.
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#46, I’ll comment as I please.
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“I have not noticed Liberals to be very forgiving people in general.
Tammy @ 30,
Be careful lumping all liberals together. Last May, Ed Schultz got himself suspended for calling Laura Ingraham a “right-wing s***”. When he returned to the air, his first order of business was to publicly apologize to Ms. Ingraham.
While I often disagree with Mr. Schultz, I have no reason to believe his apology was not sincere.
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ScottRobinson, based on Schultz’s past and ongoing record defaming Republicans to the point of “libel,” I have absolutely no reason to swallow his phony on-air apology. It was accentuated by puppy-dog eyes until his next snarky innuendo and lies. Sorry. It’ll take a lot more than a television script to convince me otherwise. He’s a disgrace.
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MAKE IT MAN #42 Neither Liberals or Conservatives have a monopoly on being rude and crude
That’s not at all what I said. Look, I retracted my contribution to that subject on account of my neglectful disregard of a number of other posts. But since you re-open the topic, fine.
My main point is that conservatives tend to assign blame to the individual while liberals blame cultural systems when things that go wrong. This is mostly non-controversial.
A conservative judge says “look in the mirror, you’re evil” when he sends a felon to the hokey. A liberal judge hands down the same sentence but says “get your GED and good luck.”
Remember, you’re absolutists who believe in depravity while we’re moral relativists who reduce virtue to conditioning. You insist on personal accountability and conversion. We discover victimhood and suggest $20,000 worth of psychodynamic therapy.
Liberals have different vices — just as bad or maybe worse — but we don’t in the main assign personal blame for every evil. (Heck, we’ll even treat terrorism as just a “law enforcement” problem rather than as a war of the worlds between Christianity and Islamofascism. )
Thus, poor Cal Thomas suffered pangs of conscience. He feared that he was unprincipled, shameful, a bad example, even demon possessed. These are all his terms! Maddow wouldn’t believe any of it. Liberals assume there is nothing wrong with Cal Thomas that a feminist seminar couldn’t repair. The desires of his heart don’t need to be cleansed — his language, again! His thinking needs to be alligned with modern theory.
What’s more remarkable, repentance or forgiveness? Which is the man-bites-dog story? There’s been a lot more drama criticism here about Cal Thomas’s contrition than about Maddow’s clemency. Personally, I have no problem begging forgiveness. I accepted Jesus as my Savior three or four times. Blaming others, however — well, I blame that deficiency on my Evangelical conditioning.
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Scroop Moth’s analysis at 52 (and even back at 14) is compelling, but I just can’t make sense of a guy who claims moral relativism at one point, then 2 sentences later talks about “vices,” “bad,” “worse,” and “evil.” Is he trying to negate his own argument?
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SCROOP MOTH @52 – There is no liberal or conservative gene. I believe it’s really much simpler. Liberals and conservatives are humans and tend to act like humans. Some times we mess up because of our choices. Our level of civility determines whether or not we choose to make right our wrongs.
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Scroop Moth, While conservatives hold people responsible for their choices, they, also, hold liberals as a group responsible for their erroneous assumptions, especially that government policy is the best solution to assorted social problems.
Charles Murray in his recent book, Coming Apart, shows in spades that the liberal “revolutions” of the sixties and seventies are at the root of contemporary decadence, mostly among the new lower class. The new upper classes are doing rather well, except that in recent decades they have isolated themselves from the lower classes to a extent unprecedented in American history.
Your view that conservatives mostly blame individuals is way too simplistic. Conservatives pay close attention to institutional strengths and weaknesses.
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“Liberals…don’t in the main assign personal blame for every evil.” – Scroop Moth @ 52
Funny comment, coming from the side that blamed George Bush for everything (9/11, Hurricane Katrina, global warming, unemployment, high gas prices, etc.) during his administration.
As your spiritual leader, Saul Alinsky, wrote in Rules for Radicals, “‘Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It (my emphasis) and Polarize It.
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Sails: Charles Murray in his recent book, Coming Apart, shows in spades that the liberal “revolutions” of the sixties and seventies are at the root of contemporary decadence, mostly among the new lower class.
Citing the racist Charles Murray is probably not your wisest choice. But for the heck of it, how are you defining “decadence?”
Moral decay that leads to real harm, such as a growth in violent crime, is one thing, and the causes of it are mutlifold — and probably mostly NOT tied to liberal ideals.
On the other hand, moral decay defined as the expansion of something that Christians consider immoral but that doesn’t do any real harm may be tied to liberal ideals. But it’s also really not decadence … to say more people, for example, are expressing acceptance of homosexuality is bad only if you already think homosexuality is bad. It’s decadence only from a particular viewpoint. From another viewpoint, it’s progress.
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Scott Robinson:
Funny comment, coming from the side that blamed George Bush for everything (9/11, Hurricane Katrina, global warming, unemployment, high gas prices, etc.) during his administration.
Nobody but a few fringe conspiracy nuts blamed him for 9/11, although many of us did think he was too dismissive of the risk al Qaeda posed.
Nobody blamed him for Hurricane Katrina; the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, however, was his responsibility.
Nobody blamed him for global warming, only for policy choices that didn’t consider it as seriously as it deserved to be considered.
Unemployment and gas prices are also largely beyond the president’s direct control, although there are policy choices presidents can make that can have influence.
As your spiritual leader, Saul Alinsky
It’s really funny how the right has suddenly seized on this guy that nobody’s heard of in 30 years and are trying to make him the latest boogeyman. What, George Soros isn’t working in that role anymore?
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Conan, you betray the shallowness of thought when you label Charles Murray a racist. He is lacknowldged by most scholars to be possibly the best social scientist in America.
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Conan, Murray carefully measured white American lower and upper classes according to the classic American virtues of industriousness and honesty along with rates of religious affiliation and marriage/divorce.
He found that since about 1963 the lower classes have precipitously declined, while the upper classes have measured well, though, again the upper classes have isolated themselves from the lower classes. He thinks as a result the country is in deep trouble, something most American sknow at the gut level.
I should suggest that you read the book before making hasty judgments about it. For me, the book was an enlightening experience. No other book in recent times has come close to its depth. One of its virtues is that carefully quantifies what most perceptive well know from common sense.
In relation to the subject of this thread, Murray is quite civil in argument and far from a polemical ideologue. He cares deeply about his country and his put both his heart and mind into this book.
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Excuse me, in the above third paragraph, I meant to say One of its virtues is that carefully quantifies what most perceptive people…
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#48
And, I’ll discuss the topics I choose to.
Now, that we’ve agreed that we can’t order each other around, we can get back to the thread at hand.
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Funny comment, coming from the side that blamed George Bush for everything (9/11, Hurricane Katrina, global warming, unemployment, high gas prices, etc.) during his administration.
To set the record straight, we blamed him for having an IQ not above 120, for being a fratboy towelsnapper, for playing politics in Alabama when he should have been flying for the National Guard, for not getting into UTexas Law School, for his acquired drawl, for his phony cattle-less ranch, for being a drunk well into his 40’s with small children in the house, for lying to conceal his DUI, for using Prince Bandar to make his money, and for not accepting Jesus as his Savior when Billy Graham gave him a personal, customized evangelistic crusade during their private, starlight stroll at Kennebunkport (what a jerk!).
Mostly, we blame him for his sociopathic invasion and occupation of Iraq, for which the decent opinion of mankind wants him at The Hague.
We’re actually grateful for his Katrina fly-over.
We blame the crash and recession on Reaganomics. By the time W announced, “My fellow Americans, we’re really, really screwed,” the man was just a bit player.
I didn’t like him because Evangelicals totally adored him.
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Ah yes, re-education camps are a product of the left, now aren’t they.
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Conan says,
So then doing the right thing because it’s the right thing isn’t your view after all, I guess. Deliberate deception for political gain is good, so long as the other guy did it first. Hmmm.
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CONANTHELIBRARIAN #58 . . many of us did think he was too dismissive of the risk al Qaeda posed.
Al Qaida is determined to attack and Bush tells his briefer, “You’ve covered your ass.” Clinton’s national security proposals sit at the bottom of Condi’s in-box while she and W. dream about the next phase of Star Wars, the fulfillment of Republican campaign promises.
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Scroop Moth, actually Clinton was in total denial regarding the radical Islamist threat. Bush, after 9/11, mounted a serious war against the radical Islamists that even Obama has come to understand and continue including drone warfare and Gitmo detention.
As to Bush, he came from a superb American family, graduated from Andover, Yale, and Harvard, became an excellent Air Force pilot, is rather well read, an excellent Christian and family man who proved to be one of the better of post WWII presidents.
Your vitriolic hatred of Bush merely proves a rather profound ignorance and lack of any sort of reasonable balance. My guess is that your background doesn’t hold a candle to that of Bush.
In relation to this thread Bush during his presidency suffered extreme hatred from his opponents and somehow managed during his presidency and afterwards to maintain a charitable attitude toward his critics,
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W. stands for worst. He will spend the rest of his life at the ranch at the end of his mind and then go to hell.
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SM,at 68, one may understand a sincere critic of Pres. Bush, though your hatred of him is rather sick. Wishing that he or anyone will go to Hell is a grave sin.
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Scroop Moth: This is an honest question: What did W do to deserve hell that O has not done?
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MSNBC is part of the White House myth making machine. NBC is owned by GE, which paid no taxes, and has its CEO as Obama’s economic adviser. Cal’s joke which fell on the humorless is a side show to distract the masses from the wizard behind the curtain.
Here is an example of the myth making that Obama and Maddow actively create.
And so, Obama promotes on the left hand what he is trying to take away with the right. The most infuriating thing about this slight of hand is that the media lets him get away with it and MSNBC actively takes part in mass deception.
If Obama were honest he would praise the workers for holding on to the jobs that his administration actively tried to kill. If the media were honest they would call him on it.
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“W. stands for worst. He will spend the rest of his life at the ranch at the end of his mind and then go to hell.”
…so much for gracious liberal forgiveness….
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Yes, Make It Man, this is the same fellow who wrote at 14:
But to be fair, it’s not so hard for liberals to forgive….. For us, apology and forgiveness are matters of social and personal responsibility. Accepting an apology is etiquette not metaphysics.
The hypocrisy is blatant.
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XION, at 71, the truth is that Obama is a congenital liar. For a good article on this see Peter Wehner’s The Obama Administration’s Systematic Deconstruction of Truth including:
It is also another example of the post-modernism of the Obama White House. Obama and his aides seem to believe facts mean nothing and “narrative” means everything. In other words, they can make it up as they go along. Now the systematic deconstruction of truth is something that happens fairly frequently in college liberal arts courses across America. But it’s something that is far more unusual to see in an American president.
Obama is basing his re-election on the premise that the American people are as indifferent to truth and facts as he is. I’m guessing he’s wrong, but we’ll know soon enough.
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Xion,
A few days ago, on the thread “What Israel’s definition of ‘is’ is,” I wrote:
Xion,
Would you please provide links to 2 or 3 articles that you think make a credible case that the “Palestinian cause” is “illegitimate” (70) or “invented” (82)?
I don’t believe that such is the case — I suspect that there are plenty of legitimate and illegitimate claims on both sides of the issue.
But I also admit that I have only dabbled around the edges of it, and I am willing to read fair and even-handed presentations that you think support your assertions.
Thanks.I’m sure you simply missed my request — the thread was starting to get “stale.”
I look forward to reading whatever links you provide. (Over on the original thread, please!)
Thanks.
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[GAAAaaarrgh! Html fail! "Preview" Frank, "preview"!]
Xion,
A few days ago, on the thread “What Israel’s definition of ‘is’ is,” I wrote:
I’m sure you simply missed my request — the thread was starting to get “stale.”
I look forward to reading whatever links you provide. (Over on the original thread, please!)
Thanks.
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Although Christians are commanded to be peacemakers, W. was a warmonger in the name of God. He invaded Iraq absent the necessity of preventing imminent death. He sacrificed innocent life as a self-appointed avenger to punish a dictator for decades-old war crimes, decades too late to save life. (”Sadam used WMD against his own people.”) He lied about his knowledge of future dangers which he proposed to defend against and prevent. Ultimately, he made war for its own sake, to “kick ### all over the Middle East.” He made war to enact neo-con theories of power without meeting the standards of just war.
Rather than stopping death, W. unleashed death for which he refused to account. Instead of making the Middle East a better place, his negligent and ill-conceived exercise of power produced a grueling fiasco of misery. Even granting his whys and wherefores for the sake of argument, his malfeasance as an occupying power constitutes negligent homicide.
W. put himself in jeopardy of detention and indictment for war crimes (in the City and County of San Francisco as well as across Europe). If he had any honor as a human being he would surrender his person to stand fair trial.
W’s warmongering is comparable to Nixon’s prolongation of the Vietnam War under false pretenses.
W’s clueless economic policies caused the worst recession since the 1930’s which took bread from the mouths of laborers.
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SM, This is a thread about civility, not about the cause of the Iraq War. Your credibility on this thread is rather lost, given your vicious, hateful remarks about Pres. Bush.
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XION #71 . . Cal’s joke . . .
Maybe his soul-searching and apology, his luncheon invitation to Maddow, and the present column are also jokes.
Whether or not Thomas’ words flew out of his mouth in a gust of levity, there’s a question about his underlying meaning, which I believe is fully serious and intentional. Conservatives share amongst themselves the idea that liberals themselves surrender any grounds for claiming a right to their own existence by virtue of the fact that they refuse to criminalize abortion. As Santorum says, “The only difference between me and a fetus is time.” Having thrown away their own right to life, like Essau gaving up his birthright, liberals exile themselves from the community of life and exist at the mercy of conservatives. That’s what Cal Thomas meant. He apologized for his words but not for the hostile thoughts that lay behind them.
I hope he drinks enough martinis to jabber it all out. Maddow will drink him under the table.
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XION #71 If Obama were honest he would praise the workers for holding on to the jobs that his administration actively tried to kill.
The NLRB tried to keep the jobs in Everett WA under union rules, not kill them.
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#80 “The NLRB tried to keep the jobs in Everett WA under union rules, not kill them.”
Wrong. These were new jobs. Obama tried to kill them. And what business should Obama have supporting union thugs who want to prevent the right to work in freedom?
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#79 Scroop “Whether or not Thomas’ words flew out of his mouth in a gust of levity, there’s a question about his underlying meaning, which I believe is fully serious and intentional.”
Oh, paleeeese! You are many things Scroop, but humorless is not one of them. Lighten up dude!
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Xion at #71: I’m confused. You, and the Examiner article you cite, claim that the NLRB tried to close the South Carolina plant at the behest of the evil union.
But the article that the Examiner links to appears to say exactly the opposite: That the workers at the South Carolina plant filed charges against the union, with the NLRB’s help:
http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2011/12/29/union-retaliated-against-boeings-south-carolina-employees-nlrb-charge-alleges/
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Xion,
Please don’t miss my Q to you at (76) above.
Thx …
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#76 Frank, Read A Place Among the Nations by Benjamin Netanyahu.
“I suspect that there are plenty of legitimate and illegitimate claims on both sides of the issue.”
Certainly, there are plenty of legitimate individual claims on both sides. However, that is different than claiming that there was a Palestinian nation, with a flag and currency and language and national identity which was stolen and replaced with a Jewish one.
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#83 Conan, Here is the whole story.
The point is moot since the Federal Government should not have the power to dictate where a private company chooses to invest. The entire case should be tossed as it was. The weird part is that Obama takes credit no matter what happens.
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Xion (85): #76 Frank, Read A Place Among the Nations by Benjamin Netanyahu.
Frank: That’s a 400+ page book. Do you have links to any articles you can recommend?
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I have at times perceived Cal Thomas to have been caustic in his statements about those with whom he disagreed. In this matter, his self-perception & public apology has earned my respect. Good on you, sir.
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Xion (85): … claiming that there was a Palestinian nation, with a flag and currency and language and national identity which was stolen and replaced with a Jewish one.
Frank: As I said, I’m only just now starting to wade into the Israeli-Palestinian Question (IPQ?), so I have a couple Qs:
And of course, I still invite you to provide links to 2 or 3 articles that you think do a good job of explaining your position.
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#89 Frank “Who claims that there was a Palestinian nation, with a flag and currency and language and national identity (before 1948, I presume) which was stolen and replaced with a Jewish one?”
That is the point. None of that existed. There was no such thing as a Palestinian people. They were mostly Arabs or Jews in tents who wandered through. There were few permanent dwellings.
Mark Twain wrote in 1867:
“the people who lived there for the several hundred years prior to 1948 — shared a modern-day sense of “nationhood,” they lived there.”
Not really. They mostly wandered through tending their flocks. The land was barren until the Jews started moving back in the late 19th century. The land began to prosper and there were jobs that attracted the Arabs to come and work in Israel. That is how the population grew. The vast majority of these people were not from Palestine.
“In modern Israel’s early days, how exactly did possession of that land legally pass from the Palestinian “natives” to the Jewish settlers?”
You should read the book. Here is a summary of the history. Israel was granted to the Jews by the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and Transjordan was given to the Arabs. The Arabs wanted it all. Wealthy Jews like the Rothschilds bought a lot of the land. The UN granted the land in 1948 after which the Palestinians were told to flee and join the enemies of the Jews to push them into the sea. They fought and lost. They lost their land through acquisition and war.
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Frank – Another resource would be the book Six Days in June: Israel’s Fight for Survival by Robert J. Donovan and staff of the L. A. Times. They wrote the book immediately after the 6 days war, so there was little time for bias to creep in. I have often found that first-hand accounts of events are more accurate sources than far-removed analysis.
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