Santorum’s birth control scruples
Newt Gingrich wants to colonize the moon. Mitt Romney is not concerned about the poor. Ron Paul defends the right of Iran to develop nuclear arms. Now, just when Republican primary voters thought that Rick Santorum might be the trouble-free conservative, he has managed to scare the general American public with his comments on birth control.
In a primary season that has been a carnival of the bizarre, this is just the latest sideshow spectacle. The subject came to national attention when the Obama administration, implementing new Obamacare mandates, attempted to force religious institutions such as Catholic hospitals to include coverage for contraception and sterilization in their employee health insurance plans. Though 99 percent of non-virgin women between the ages of 15 and 44 have used artificial birth control, a practice the Roman Catholic Church forbids, people of all religious and political persuasions were appalled at the administration’s heavy-handed indifference to religious liberty. (Read Joe Carter’s excellent summary of the issue at The Gospel Coalition.)
Media attention then turned to Santorum, who is known to hold very conservative Catholic positions. The press, always hungry for controversy, did not have to go back very far to find this 2010 Caffeinated Thoughts interview with Shane Vander Hart in which Santorum resolved that in his upcoming presidential bid he would talk about the moral dangers of contraception:
“’It’s not OK because it’s a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be within marriage; they are supposed to be for purposes that are, yes, conjugal, but also procreative. That’s the perfect way that a sexual union should happen. We take any part of that out, we diminish the act. And if you can take one part out that’s not for purposes of procreation, that’s not one of the reasons, then you diminish this very special bond between men and women, so why can’t you take other parts of that out? And all of a sudden it becomes deconstructed to the point where it’s simply pleasure. And that’s certainly a part of it—and it’s an important part of it, don’t get me wrong—but there’s a lot of things we do for pleasure, and this is special, and it needs to be seen as special.”
Christians in political office cannot leave their religiously inspired moral views at home. There is always and necessarily a moral dimension to political decision-making, so when you vote for someone, you are voting for that person’s entire moral framework. As the senator points out in the interview, contraceptive use is not simply a private matter. (Is anything?) It has profound implications for character formation, family and social stability, and even economic prosperity. Insofar as it has enabled the sexual revolution, the widespread availability of artificial contraception is as legitimate a subject for public policy discussion as that revolution itself.
But if a political leader—whether aspiring or elected—gets too far out ahead of the moral consensus of the community, unless he has remarkable gifts of moral leadership, he can expect to pay a political price. There is a time and manner for addressing these issues. To use a presidential primary campaign as the setting in which to address what almost all Americans see, perhaps mistakenly, as a narrowly parochial moral scruple shows imprudence. A good president chooses his words carefully—as well as when and where to say them—for the greatest public benefit.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top155 Comments to “Santorum’s birth control scruples”
“’It’s not OK because it’s a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be within marriage; they are supposed to be for purposes that are, yes, conjugal, but also procreative. That’s the perfect way that a sexual union should happen. We take any part of that out, we diminish the act. And if you can take one part out that’s not for purposes of procreation, that’s not one of the reasons, then you diminish this very special bond between men and women, so why can’t you take other parts of that out? And all of a sudden it becomes deconstructed to the point where it’s simply pleasure. And that’s certainly a part of it—and it’s an important part of it, don’t get me wrong—but there’s a lot of things we do for pleasure, and this is special, and it needs to be seen as special.”
—
What is wrong with this statement?
Report comment to moderator
You want a controversy look at Mr. Obama Statements.
Report comment to moderator
Obama suckered Santorum into a cultural debate that should be way out of the realm of any presidential decisions.
Report comment to moderator
At least Romney told Stephanopoulis it was a silly question to ask whether or not contraception could be banned by the states. And now we know he was just a front man for Obama’s trap.
Report comment to moderator
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the man’s statement. It’s a sight better than the Weasel-In-Chief’s response:
That’s above my pay grade.
Report comment to moderator
Santorum has made it clear that while personally he opposes birth control, at the public level he has actually supported measures that favor it. The truth is that the liberal media often excerpt damaging bits and pieces of his statements that even conservative pundits fall for.
For his basic view here is a clear statement of his view on contraception given in a 2006 video from CN8, a cable-news station in Pennsylvania:
Host: So, would birth control be covered by that notion of freedom without responsibility?
Santorum: I’m–look, I vote and have supported, you know, birth control because it is not the taking of a human life. But, you know, I’m not a believer in birth control–in artificial birth control. Again, I think it goes down the line of being able to do whatever you want to do without having the responsibility that comes with that. And I don’t think it–it breaks what I think–now, this is from a personal point of view. From a governmental point of view, I support, you know, Title X, I guess it is, and have voted for contraception–although I don’t think it works. I think it’s harmful to women, I think it’s harmful to our society to have a society that says that, you know, sex outside of marriage is something that should be encouraged or tolerated, particularly among the young, and I think it has–and we’ve seen very, very harmful long-term consequences to a society. So birth control to me enables that, and I don’t think it’s a healthy thing for our country.
Santorum is honest enough to give his personal view of the matter, while having the sophistication to understand that many good people disagree with that view. In my view he is probably too honest on these issues, though I prefer his honesty to Romney’s elastic views.
Some brilliant Protestant thinkers, including Elizabeth Anscombe, have opposed contraception; this is not just a Catholic position, though Pope Paul VI likely gave probably the most incisive statement on the matter with his Encyclical, Humanae Vitae
Report comment to moderator
Louise, maybe I missed something but I don’t see how Santorum was “suckered” into anything. Remember, they had to go back into the past to dig up this statement in order to pretend that a “cultrual debate” was raging. This is the left-stream media trying to create an issue and define a candidate on their own terms.
Report comment to moderator
Santorum will do nothing politically to ban or restrict the decisions of any American regarding birth control. He also would not force the entire American population to be forced to pay for those private decisions either.
Obama is the over-reaching political dictator here.
Report comment to moderator
This is the issue that the left and Romney will attack Rick S over.
Report comment to moderator
Regarding the Catholic teachings on this: it rarely helps a church to condemn things the Bible does not really clearly condemn.
This also goes for the prohibition of their clergy from getting married. NOTHING in the Bible hints that this should be forbidden. The choice to remain unmarried is fully commendable but to extract vows of celibacy on the clergy can do zero good (and can do much harm) for many inside or outside the church.
Be gracefully silent where the Bible is silent. The Bible has enough in it to guide us in salvation and sanctification and we don’t need to add laws and bans that are just not there.
Just saying.
Report comment to moderator
I love how Ron Paul’s view that a sovereign nation have the right to act autonomously to do the same thing our own country has already done is lumped in with looney ideas of other candidates.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark, the Bible was written at a time when artificial birth control was beyond imagination. Since then, Christian thinkers including Elizabeth Anscombe and Paul VI have come to doubt the wisdom of artificial birth control.
In my view it is a mistake to strictly limit our thinking to the Bible, though for sure the teaching of the Bible is true and beyond doubt.
Report comment to moderator
The idea of birth control being a sin, is up to people to talk to God about. If God directs them that it is wrong that is their personal conviction.
Now the problem is what is include in the idea of birth control. Is it just the pill or does the morning after (death) pill included. Is where a real debate is and should be the focus.
Report comment to moderator
This a sleeper. Rick is Catholic and apparently a practicing one so no big surprise here.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark 7, I think we’re in agreement. But IMO Rick Santorum’s pontificating on the topic gave the Dems an unnecessary issue to blow all out of proportion and lie about. The Obama campaign knew exactly how to do this based on Sanotrum’s well-known, strong stand for life, now being turned upside down into a charge against women’s health. Makes me very angry.
Report comment to moderator
Sails,
I have no problem with anyone expressing their doubt regarding the wisdom of artificial birth control. But if they call it a sin in any sweeping sense, they have gone farther than I think they are justified and they border on playing God. You need some solid biblical ground (in principle or in specific) to call something a sin.
And I do not at all mean to suggest we should strictly limit our thinking to the Bible. I am saying we should limit our condemnations regarding the behavior of others to what can clearly be supported in Scripture in principle or in practice. Birth control does not necessarily dishonor or extinguish human life. Abortion does.
Report comment to moderator
This shows again The White House wants to run against Romney. So they are having their people in the media attack anyone who challenges Romney,
Report comment to moderator
Pardon me if I am confused, but how will Santorum’s firm grasp on the negative impact that the sexual “revolution” has had on women deter his current supporters? The use of contraceptives to enable “casual sex” has devalued feminine (and masculine) virtue to the point of scorn. The feminist movement has done more to destroy the stability of families than any other paradigm shift in history (emasculating the genuine male and robbing women of their right to femininity in exchange for gender equality). Even Darwinism took almost a century to catch on. I don’t think Santorum has separated himself from the voting public, I think that he has endeared himself to men and women of the highest moral character. And the sway of these individuals may be broader and more influential than pop-media anticipates.
Report comment to moderator
Paul Shapard, you are right and I could make the case for myself being a “victim” of that “sexual revolution” now seriously on the other side. Santorum could have simply adapted JFK’s statement that he is a Catholic and abides by those tenets of his faith, without belaboring the drawbacks of “libertinism.” It was too much.
Report comment to moderator
But, hey – I’ve been wrong before.
Report comment to moderator
I thought this might be fof interest:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-loudest-closet-left
Report comment to moderator
10 — Joel — wow we actually agree on something. I’ll use your line the next time someone tries to convince me the Bible endorses capitalism.
Louise — you’re right, I don’t think this was a carefully laid trap but I do think Obama et al knew and still know they have a winning issue here and are quite happy to let this issue fester.
Pastor Roy — are you serious? Obama would be quite happy to run against Santorum or Gingrich as opposed to Romney. Romney is the only candidate who even comes close to defeating Obama.
Report comment to moderator
HRW, I couldn’t agree with you more about Romney being Obama’s least desirable opponent. “It aint’t over, til it’s over.”
Report comment to moderator
The Leftys at the lunch table are praying for Santorum to win the nomination because they believe that will be a shoo-in for Obama.
Report comment to moderator
For fairness sake… here is the government funded Planned Parenthood’s approach to the issue.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hooking-kids-on-sex-graphic-new-vid-report-shows-how-planned-parenthood-is-creating-future-customers/
Report comment to moderator
Louise,at 19: Santorum could have simply adapted JFK’s statement that he is a Catholic and abides by those tenets of his faith, without belaboring the drawbacks of “libertinism.” It was too much.
You could be right that Santorum’s speaking the truth about the devastating impact of the sexual revolution is too much for the 60s and 70s yuppy voters involved in that “revolution,” though back in 1860 Lincoln was similarly criticized for being too idealistic for opposing the extension of slavery to the North. In Santorum’s case, he is exactly right that our nation suffers grievously from moral failure. He quite understands that lifestyle libertinism has become a disastrous influence on our society. Santorum is also no slouch on economic and international issues.
This Republican nomination comes down to a contest between a quite able, somewhat conservative candidate, Romney, and, and an, also, quite able, consistently conservative candidate, Santorum, both of whom could give Obama a sharp challenge.
Personally, I favor Santorum, though I should be glad to support Romney. Either one of them might just have the quality to become a great president like Reagan and to a lesser extent, George W, Bush.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks NJL – interesting confirmation. I’m not double-minded in the negative meaning of that phrase, but I’m perfectly comfortable with God being in immediate and ultimate control while I go along my own lights as I think He leads me right now. Glad your tummy-churning is over for today. Take advantage of your longer weekend to relax and refresh. Gutenacht.
Report comment to moderator
It won’t deter Santorum’s followers. But it will most likely be used to kill any support with independent voters.
And whoever wins the presidency will have to do so with a majority of the independent vote in this country. It also takes the 2012 debate off of what is arguably the GOP’s best-shot issue: The economy.
It’s a race down a rabbit trail that the Dems would be glad to run — and they’d likely win.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, can’t argue with you on any of that and so glad to read the way you put it. I just lean slightly more towards Romney having the edge against our failed incumbent. Yet, we all know it’s still a long, long way to November.
Report comment to moderator
DonnaJ, those Independent voters are the mystery, especially as they seem to be abandoning the middle to one side or the other these days. Some analysts think that pollsters have over-rated their influence. I don’t know. And the plotting of snapshot polls are more volatile than ususla I think.
Report comment to moderator
Independents are a growing category and they do tend to lean conservative. But they are more assuredly conservative on fiscal matters than on social issues (at least that’s been the case so far). They mostly went with Obama last time. But with the economy in ruins, they’ll be more likely to vote for a fiscally conservative approach.
The GOP needs to give the country a candidate with a vision who can inspire. So far, I don’t think anyone has emerged who fills that role. While Obama’s image is tarnished, if those who waffle in the middle aren’t given a compelling alternative — or are spooked by the alternative that’s out there — they’ll probably (even if reluctantly) vote Obama or just stay home.
I still lean toward Romney as well. But he’s got some weaknesses to overcome.
Report comment to moderator
I agree with the closing line in this post: “There is a time and manner for addressing these issues. To use a presidential primary campaign as the setting in which to address what almost all Americans see, perhaps mistakenly, as a narrowly parochial moral scruple shows imprudence. A good president chooses his words carefully—as well as when and where to say them—for the greatest public benefit.”
Twisting this into a national debate on contraception — which the Dems are trying to do and in some ways are succeeding — will, right or wrong, not play well for the GOP with most Americans. I’m just saying …
Report comment to moderator
@Sails
Thanks for pointing out Santorum’s consistent approach to the issue as a matter of policy.
I’m disappointed that such information wasn’t included in the article proper. By leaving such relevant information out the article creates a very different picture of Santorum.
Report comment to moderator
#16 Joel, I agree completely.
Report comment to moderator
#26 sails, so you’re OK with Mormonism? I wonder what God thinks of it.
Report comment to moderator
#31 donna j, so you’re also OK with Mormonism?
Report comment to moderator
Tearfang, at 33, thanks, I agree that D.C.Innes in the article above seems to have fallen for the liberal media view of Santorum.
Serious Christian writers need to be careful regarding Santorum to make sure they fully understand his position. He is certainly not above criticism, though this need to be fairly arrived at, something that Innes in this article lacked.
Report comment to moderator
Danke, Louise!
Report comment to moderator
#36, No, not particularly. I wish an orthodox Presbyterian were running.
But alas ….
Again, we’re not electing a church elder, we’re electing a president. Frankly I have no idea how truly Christian any of our presidents have been. Only God knows, I suppose. Some sound more orthodox than others.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Santorum. I agree with his positions. But I also agree with most of Romney’s (and I especially like his grasp of the financial issues) — and, while I may be wrong, I still think between the two of them, Romney has the better shot at it.
Report comment to moderator
I think I understand where Santorum’s coming from and I agree and really respect it. Of all the candidates, he strikes a genuine and authentic chord (though I wish he were stronger on the economy). His position on contraception is a minority view in our society at this particular time. And that can (and will) be blown out of proportion and be made to sound really quite scary to most of my neighbors. I think we can start to see that process taking place already.
That’s unfortunate. I wish we lived in a different world. I wish people in this country had ears to hear. Maybe God will bring us as a nation to our senses in another generation or so, I don’t know. But the goal now is to rite the ship, to turn it around, however gradually, to get us all headed back in the right direction again.
Report comment to moderator
Luke 15, at 35, actually I regard Mormonism as a rather bizarre religion that I don;t come close to understanding; however I admire Mitt Romney’s adherence to his family;s ancestral religion and his sincere attempt to live a moral Christian life. In my business career I knew many Mormons well, most of whom were of exemplary character.
Frankly, I abhor Christians who won’t vote for Romney due to his Mormonism. The ones whom I’ve talked to with this position struck me as rather ignorant, self centered souls who lack an understanding of what America is about.
Report comment to moderator
Hmm. I suppose “rather bizarre” is one way of saying it. What’s admirable about adherence to a false religion?
Report comment to moderator
counter to how things are supposed to be
Says who?
The same fellow who cursed women and was fond of condemning them to be forced eat their offspring and have the flesh of their thighs rot? The same one who promoted the death penalty for virtually any kind of sexual dalliance? Yet whose most favored supporters had hundreds of “wives”?
Yep, according to Rick the only good woman is either completely chaste or pregnant. There is no other alternative. Otherwise they are worthless. I bet he rues the day when they were first allowed to own property or vote.
Report comment to moderator
Or, if all of that is just too OT for you, how about the fellow, somebody’s son, who denied his own mother? You did your job, Mom, now shut up and get out of the way…
Report comment to moderator
HRW, as you may have noticed, I have never been one to claim that the Bible specifically endorses capitalism. I am a strong supporter of free-market capitalism as a proven blessing to humanity beyond any other “ism” and there are biblical principles that are consistent with it. But a sincere non-capitalist (though a sinner like the rest of us) has not necessarily sinned due to his politics alone. And I was no less a Christian back when I was a Democrat than when I was a Republican. I can argue strongly against socialism and even use a few verses, but I do not make it a test of faith and never have. The “ism” is not necessarily what keeps anyone from God. Our ongoing refusal to repent of our sins is.
It is too cheap and easy to define sin merely as external misdeeds or as various political stances. Sin enslaves us at a far deeper level than that. And redemption through Christ transforms us at a far higher level than merely replacing one “ism” for another or fixing up a few behavior habits. He cleans up our hearts and lives through and through and that can lead to huge changes, not defined by politicians or preachers but by the Holy Spirit who lives inside the repentant believer.
HRW, I don’t even think you would have to give up your socialism to be a Christian. But I will continue to argue against your socialism in earnest and I hope it is always taken with respect as an honorable difference between us.
Report comment to moderator
Because of a serious collapse of independent intelligence in America, it is extremely easy for the left-stream media to define a candidate on its own terms and control the discourse in ways that turn him into a perception-riddled candidate that does not exist in the real world. But I have never believed that perception is reality and reality has better staying power than contrived perception. I guess I’m glad for the duration of campaigns, at least for the reason just stated. The left-stream media cannot always hold their charades together for long anymore (though they did in 2008). There are more independent media sources now to challenge their flimsy pretense and leftist campaign games. But many will still be fooled.
Report comment to moderator
Paul Shepherd wrote; “The feminist movement has done more to destroy the stability of families than any other paradigm shift in history…”
Well stated, sir. This paradigm shift also wrought a devastating sea-change in the rate of babies born to unwed mothers in America. Around 1960, approximately 6 or maybe 8 percent of American babies born were born out of wedlock. Today, the number is 42%. This is staggering and unconscionable.
And i agree that Santorum has endeared himself to men and women of the highest moral character.
Report comment to moderator
Mac: What’s admirable about adherence to a false religion?
While the religion has some dubious doctrines, Christ is still at its center and it outshines most Christian religions in its ability to instill strict morality and a work ethic in most of its adherents who routinely tithe their income.
The Mormon system of welfare is the most extensive and best organized of any religion in the world. During Hurricane Katrina and other emergencies the Mormons quickly sent hundreds of large truckloads of food and water, while the government is usually scratching its head and trying to get organized.
Christians who sententiously look down on Mormons with scorn would do well to have a bit of charity.
Report comment to moderator
For “fairness sake” — let’s remember who founded Planned Parenthood — eugenicists. So whenever you hear of a PP campaign of any sort, confront those people with the truth and tell them their government (OUR government) is no better than Nazi Germany. It is a sad day when we have to admit — if we’re honest — that Hitler was more honest and open about his goals than the US Govt., the govt. that couches its plans interms of women’s health care. I don’t know which word is worse: “health” or “care” in this one.
Report comment to moderator
If Romney attacks Santorum on this, he risks offending Christians who agree with Santorum, and he needs us. It would be better if he just shut up.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark, a Leftist can’t see that the Bible isn’t about government or economic systems. They can’t understand what it’s about.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, it’s a false Jesus Christ who is at the “center” of Mormonism–just as false as the Jesus in Islam. (They too believe in Jesus.) The “Jesus” or Mormonism was conceived by human means and is a brother to Satan. His “father” is now god of this planet but not the only god. “As man now is, God once was. As God is, man may become” is a “cute” saying sometimes seen on Christmas cards, but it’s actually Mormon error. This is not a branch of Christianity, nor is it reverence for Christ.
Paul said it best: “If we or an angel from heaven [Moroni] preach to you any other doctrine, let him be accursed.”
The false doctrine doesn’t necessarily disqualify someone from the presidency, but it is definitely an error, and not a little one, and it’s enough to make me hope someone else is the eventual candidate. (Whether or not I’ll vote for Romney if he is the candidate, I don’t know yet. If he is the candidate, I’ll want to talk it over with my husband and do some further research on Romney’s political history. I’m not really very impressed with him.)
Report comment to moderator
N J Lawyer, at 51, there is a Letter to the Editor in todays WSJ that nicely addresses the Bible’s view on socialism:
The New Testament says much about money, but let us be clear that, contrary to Max Ballard’s letter (Feb. 4), it does not teach socialism. Yes, the Book of Acts records the early church in Jerusalem practicing a form of socialism, but this describes historic (temporary) practice, not propositional teaching. In fact, this practice was a profound failure, plunging the church in Jerusalem into a generation of poverty.
St. Paul spent years planting churches in Asia Minor and Greece, and from every church he collected gifts in order to help the impoverished Jerusalem church. Paul taught that people should willingly give to the poor. Such giving should be intentional, proportional, regular, joyful and not done under compulsion (2 Corinthians). He also taught that people should be industriously self-supportive, “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat” (2 Thessalonians: 3:10, ESV).
Michael S. Beates, Min.
Report comment to moderator
Thank you, Sails. You gave me some “ammunition” there!
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, at 52, I shared your view on Mormonism until recently reading a First Things February article, Mormonism Obsessed with Christ, including:
I too used to think of Mormonism as little more than an exotic and abnormal addition to Christianity. When I taught Mormon history to my students, I emphasized its remarkable spirit of endurance, its organizational savvy, and the sheer scope of its religious imagination. Yet I regret to say that I did not try to hide my condescension.
I have come to repent of this view, and not just because I came to my senses about how wrong it is to be rude toward somebody else’s faith. I changed my mind because I came to realize just how deeply Christ-centered Mormonism is. Mormonism is more than Christianity, of course—most obviously by adding the Book of Mormon to the Bible—and that makes it much less than Christianity as well. Nevertheless, the fact that Mormonism adds to the traditional Christian story does not necessarily mean that it detracts from Christianity to the point of denying it altogether.
This fellow Webb is a professor of religion and philosophy ay Wabash College.
Report comment to moderator
Sails – The problem is the jesus the Mormon focus on is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Book of Mormon is a false gospel and Mormonism is a false religion.
Report comment to moderator
Now, an audio of Santorum speaking to Ave Maria College in 2008:
“We all know that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic but the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant Judeo-Christian ethic, sure the Catholics had some influence, but this was a Protestant country and the Protestant ethic, mainstream, mainline Protestantism, and of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it.”
Liberal Christian denominations which approve of same-sex marriage come to mind, but I’m wondering how much political noise this will start and whether or not it will be worth a discussion among his opponents.
Report comment to moderator
Louise, thanks for this further example of Santorum’s truth-telling. I’d be willing to bet that should Santorum get the nomination the media will find a way to cite this with glaring headlines: “Santorum Claims Mainline Protestants Gone from Christianity.”
Report comment to moderator
Sails,
You have to remember that though Mormons use the same terminology they use the terms to mean different things. But, partly because Mormonism is a works based religion, many Mormons have high moral practices. We agree with them on many things in the culture war, but to call them Christians is a stretch.
Christians trust in Christ for our salvation, but while Mormons might twist the meanings of the words and say the same thing, their trust is more in their good works.
A few years back I heard of a Mormon bishop who found Christ. He decided to use his position in that Mormon church to tell his congregation about Christ. He tried for a year but realized that they didn’t understand a word that he was saying so he left his position. It’s like they were on zombie mode.
The problem is that Mormons use the same words to mean something else.
This doesn’t mean a Mormon would necessarily make a poor president. Many are good people. As far a presidential candidates go over the years, most have professed Christianity. My guess though is that many were in reality not.
And being a Christian does not necessarily make someone a good president. There are many skills necessary for the presidency, good character being only one of them.
Report comment to moderator
I agree with the Mr Innes that this issue will not be a winner to push too hard for Mr Santorum given the full acceptance of birth control by our culture and largely by the church
There are a few aspects of BC that should give us pause though….
Firstly, from a medical standpoint, oral contraceptives have many side effects- some of which can be very dangerous such as Pulmonary Embolism (clot in the lung).
Secondandly, though not directly addressed in the Bible, the entire counsel of scripture indicates that children are a blessing, and why would we purposefully say no to God’s blessing us?
Report comment to moderator
Sails, please research it more. Top to bottom, Mormonism is a false religion that uses a lot of “Christian” words. But it is heresy, and a grievous distortion of Christianity that presents a false Jesus and a false salvation. As such it is a lie of Satan and an accursed religion.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Cheryl, from the beginning I’ve regarded Mormon doctrine as bizarre and false. I’m mostly impressed with the religion’s ability to instill strict morality and a work ethic along with tithing and welfare for its poor.
Regarding Romney, should he be nominated, I hope you will find a way to vote for him, as the prospect of another four years of Obama would be disastrous for the country, especially if he were able to appoint one or two more members of the Supreme Court
Report comment to moderator
A disaster, Sails, that I’m fearing is the more likely scenario.
Unless …. ?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/us-usa-campaign-convention-idUSTRE81G1ZF20120217
Of all years, you’d think the gop would have/could have found a consensus candidate. But sadly there seems to be something of a confused/scattered leadership vacuum among political conservatives at this point.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Donna, this could well end up with a brokered convention, in which case the best of all the Republicans, Mitch Daniels, might win.
Report comment to moderator
Louise,
It’s interesting that you refer to the fall of mainline Protestantism. I’d suggest that much of our moral decline rests on the downfall of mainline Protestantism.
The moral consensus of the 1950s required an institution to embody that consensus. Mainline churches had historically performed that function, at least since the mid 1800s. Then, starting in the late 50s, neo-evangelicalism (referred to today merely as “evangelicalism”) emerged. The leaders of that movement urged more theological conservative believers to jettison their mainline churches and form denominal networks that were more theologically pure. This led to the downfall of mainline churches, as many mainline churches gradually fell into the hands of their more liberal elements (that had never previously held power).
Mainline churches didn’t fall because they adopted liberal positions. Rather, they fell because a number of more conservative Christians jettisoned mainline churches for congregations that were more theologically and socially homogeneous. The rise of social liberalism within mainline communions only arose later.
Evangelicals often bemoan the loss of our national moral consensus. On the other hand, evangelicals are largely at fault for destroying the institutions that had historically embodied that moral consensus. The anti-traditionalism that allowed neo-evangelicalism to emerge is the same anti-traditionalism that allowed the sexual revolution to emerge. But once tradition goes out the window, you lose both the good and the bad.
Report comment to moderator
Evan, I can’t really analyze your analysis because I don’t know all that much about evangelicalism prior to the seventies. (It has been many years since college when I read some earlier history.) But from more recent history, my hunch is that your theory is wrong. The PCA split from the PC(USA) because it really had no choice, and so with those who left the Episcopalians to become Anglicans. The initial denomination in those cases (and probably others) was too far removed from orthodoxy for believers to stay.
Many today are staying in the United Methodist camp, hoping to change it from the inside, but as with those others, it really seems to be a losing battle. Once a denomination jettisons biblical authority (usually starting with such issues as women in the pulpit and homosexuality being biblically acceptable), there isn’t a lot of point in the faithful staying and keeping their families there.
Report comment to moderator
Evan, very interesting theory and one I’d not heard.
My view is similar to Cheryl’s (both from my own study and from first-hand experience) — that liberal theology began to sweep mainline seminaries away from orthodoxy. Many stayed, but with time it became untenable.
What I do agree with, however, is that many of the popular “para-church” organizations launched by modern-day evangelicals served, inadvertently, to undermine and take resources away from the church proper.
Report comment to moderator
Evan: Mainline churches didn’t fall because they adopted liberal positions. Rather, they fell because a number of more conservative Christians jettisoned mainline churches for congregations that were more theologically and socially homogeneous. The rise of social liberalism within mainline communions only arose later.
Not really, Mainline churches fell mainly to 18th and 19th century liberal theologians including Ritchl and Schleirmacher and in the twentieth-century, Bultmann and Tillich. These people came to seriously doubt the theology of the Incarnation and Resurrection.
Many American theologians fell in line with the Germans, establishing a vacuous Mainline theology. Some brave American theologians including B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, and Reinhold Niebuhr manfully objected to this liberal assault on orthodoxy, though the Mainline churches fell for it and continue to do so.
Conservative Christians within Mainline churches felt forced to find more orthodox evangelical churches, as they found the liberal churches too much to bear.
In the case of my family, with forebears going back to the early Seventeenth-Century, we have stayed within a local Massachusetts Congregational church and tried to fight the liberals, though I should say that this is a losing battle. Just now, I am seriously thinking of joining a local Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.
The problem with your view is that it tends to blame the victims, not the real culprits.
Report comment to moderator
Innes left off the parts that, I think, give most pause:
That Santorum honors the Church’s teaching on birth control is one thing. It might seem a matter of his purely personal belief. But the concern is that he might use the office of the Presidency to push other Americans to do the same.
He says he will “talk about” these issues whether it’s considered appropriate to the office or not, whether the American people want to hear it or not, because that’s who he is. He says contraception is an “important public policy issue” that has a “profound impact on the health of our society.”
That sounds very much like his case for making it a national issue.
(In other threads, Santorum supporters have brought up more recent quotes where he says that birth control would not be part of his platform. Perhaps they’ll do so again. Regardless, he did indicate in this interview that it would be.)
Report comment to moderator
Well, I would say that people don’t/didn’t leave a mainline church because their faith needs were met but rather because they weren’t. It isn’t hard to know the Bible, then listen to a service that doesn’t follow it and figure out that you no longer belong there.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, 68, good post. That’s been my understanding of the history as well. It’s been a gradual drift since then, spreading from one to another denomination, beginning in the seminaries — often times you had congregations that remained fairly orthodox, but their pastors were no longer very orthodox at all.
You then had more orthodox branches of the denominations — which much more closely reflected the original denomination itself — develop and thrive as the old mainline churches withered.
Report comment to moderator
Sails,
Excellent post at #53.
Report comment to moderator
I recall reading that when Dietrich Bonhoeffer came to America in the years before WW2, he went to mainline Protestant churches and was disappointed in the lack of authentic biblical or gospel preaching. Where he did find what he considered to be gospel preaching was in some of the black churches (in Harlem and such).
But don’t think for a minute that Bonhoeffer was simple-minded or unaware of the influence of German theology behind the weak preaching in mainline Protestant churches. He just had a grip on the gospel itself and knew it when it was missing in the message.
______________
As far as “para-church” Christian ministries, they often do a lot of good and I rarely see them in competition with local churches, nor do I see any undermining going on (though maybe some instances can be cited). God bless them.
Report comment to moderator
I ask you: how many of you have followed Obama’s version of Christianity?
People don’t do that unless there’s truth in it, but then again, that could be what they’re afraid of — hearing the truth.
Report comment to moderator
Joel, I, also, have read that Bonhoeffer was disappointed with Mainline American churches and found serious religion in Black churches. Further, in his view, the Mainline churches offered what he termed cheap Grace. In his book on Christian Discipleship, he distinguished sharply between easy or cheap Grace and disciplined Grace that often involved suffering.
Bonhoeffer ended up suffering through being hung in April 1945 at age thirty-nine by the Nazis for his part in attempting yo assassinate Hitler- disciplined Christian Grace indeed.
Report comment to moderator
#52 Cheryl, extremely well put. I studied Mormonism thoroughly when I was a pastor when some parishioners requested it. It is a vile, blasphemous cult started by a womanizing nut-job, who wanted to accumulate a harem. Mormons only abandoned polygamy because the U.S. wouldn’t allow Utah to become a state otherwise. If God allows Romney to become president it will be to bring judgement to us. It’s God who matters here and 2 John is clear about our relationship to false teachers. Read it and study Mormonism before it’s too late.
Report comment to moderator
# 73 Joel, Bonhoeffer is a hero of mine but he was probably neo-orthodox. We can’t be sure of some of his theology.
Report comment to moderator
#68 Sails, I tend to agree with you. Our PCUSA Presbytery is the most conservative in the U.S. and it’s agonizing to go through all this. Many are leaving and I can understand it but many are staying and trying to keep up the good fight.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark – As far as “para-church” Christian ministries, they often do a lot of good and I rarely see them in competition with local churches, nor do I see any undermining going on (though maybe some instances can be cited). God bless them.
I agree they do good work — and any “competition,” if you will, with the church certainly is/was not intentional, I’m sure. But many of these independent groups drew large numbers of young evangelicals who I think often perceived them as their main corporate spiritual body. Perhaps the void was created by our weakened Christian churches, however.
We just need to remember that the church is the church — other ministries should operate within a realm under and connected to the church’s authority.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, if you haven’t already done so, I recommend you make your views on Mormonism known to your session.
Report comment to moderator
Mac’, I have no clue what you mean by the term “session.”
Report comment to moderator
I ask you: how many of you have followed Obama’s version of Christianity?
People don’t do that unless there’s truth in it, but then again, that could be what they’re afraid of — hearing the truth
What truth? The more I read this board, the less I understand what the truth about Christianity is for the posters. Once you get beyond sex and marriage and abortion, what other “truth” concerns you? What “Christian” economics or economic policies? What “Christian” politics? What “Christian” foreign policy principles (beyond Israel)?
Luke15: Pretty strong stuff in post 76. What do you mean by If God allows Romney to become president it will be to bring judgement to us?
Incidentally, Santorum took a swipe at Obama’s theology today. Somewhat presumptuous of him I think. He mentioned absolutely nothing specific to complain about.
Report comment to moderator
Session = elders.
I don’t think Sails denies that Mormonism is heretical. Seems all I read was an acknowledgement that as a group Mormons can legitimately take credit for maintaining strong families and for tithing.
Again, I agree that if your doctrine is heretical, “strong families” comes in a very long-shot & weak second place in my mind. But still, credit given where it’s due on that front. (While Mormons may acknowledge Christ, it’s a warped view of Him & of Scripture with an extra-biblical text seen as more central in many ways to the faith — as someone, Sails I think, said, it is quite bizarre.)
But I would disagree that Romney being elected somehow means that will be God’s judgement on the U.S.
God does judge nations, but I think we need to tread carefully when suggesting this person or that person becoming president is somehow going to be one of the means of his judgement.
Report comment to moderator
And I do think there are individual believers within many off-beat denominations and religions. They may be few, but I think sometimes people are rooted in these church traditions through family ties, etc., but they are believers in Christ and His full atonement for sin.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl (66): The PCA did not split from the PCUSA. The PCUSA didn’t even exist in 1973; it formed in 1983. The PCA left the PCUS (i.e., the Southern Presbyterian church). The PCUS was not a liberal denomination. It contained liberals. But those liberals never had any real power in the PCUS until after 1973.
Sails (68): Warfield and Niebuhr were both mainline theologians for the entirety of their lives. Machen led a schism from the mainline church in 1936, and then died a year later. I believe that if Machen had lived to see the dysfunction of the OPC, he would have joined Edwin Rian in returning to the mother kirk.
Mormonism has also leaked into the discussion. I’ve often found it interesting that evangelicals feel the need to rail against Mormonism. As Howard Bloom noted many years ago, American folk Christianity (i.e., evangelicalism and fundamentalism) is not really different at all from Mormonism. Mormonism is just explicit about its departure from orthodoxy. Evangelicals, in contrast, have attempted to redefine orthodoxy to suit their narcissistic theology. The chaos of evangelicalism makes me very glad to be a eighth-generation mainline Southern Presbyterian.
Report comment to moderator
Arcadia, “The more I read this board, the less I understand what the truth about Christianity is for the posters.”
You have a much better source available to you than this blog or its posters. So, with the Bible at your finger-tips, your understanding is your responsibility. Faith is first of all between you and God, not anonymous posters, no matter how well meaning.
Report comment to moderator
Donna J,
Point well taken.
Report comment to moderator
Joel — I know you haven’t asserted capitalism as biblically ordained but my comment was a subtle dig at RWHawk from an other thread — he asserts capitalism as ordained by the bible. Just as celibacy and birth control aren’t explicitly commented in the bible neither is economics, — thanks for your support.
Report comment to moderator
I gotcha, HRW. Point well taken. Lifelong celebacy (for clergy or anyone) enjoined strictly as a mandate or birth control expressly prohibited, that is. I can respect one who makes certain specific moral decisions for their own lives and their own reasons, rooted in prayer, but what I am opposing is using the Bible (without sufficient support) to create bigger and heavier legalistic burdens (which actually can cheapen true godly morality) than God intended for us.
Report comment to moderator
Evan, at 85, BB Warfield quite rejected the views of the mainline New Princeton theologians. J Gresham Machen said of Warfield when he died that he was the last of the Old Princeton orthodox theologians. Further, I seriously doubt whether Machen would have returned to the mainline Presbyterian church.
As to Reinhold Niebuhr, he began as a mainline and social-gospel Lutheran pastor, though he later quite recanted these views. In a 1939 Christian Century article he remarked as follows:
….About midway in my ministry which extends roughly from the peace of Versailles [1919] to the peace of Munich [1938], measured in terms of Western history, I underwent a fairly complete conversion of thought which involved rejection of almost all the liberal theological ideals and ideas with which I ventured forth in 1915. I wrote a book [Does Civilization need Religion?], my first, in 1927 which…contains almost all the theological windmills against which today I tilt my sword. These windmills must have tumbled shortly thereafter for every succeeding volume expresses a more and more explicit revolt against what is usually known as liberal culture.
Following the logic of your view that those who jump ship from mainline churches are disloyal schismatics, both Luther and Calvin could be similarly regarded.
I do agree with you that one ought not lightly join some narcissistic Christian sect, though there are orthodox alternatives for mainline Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists caught in the snares of liberal theology that C. S. Lewis regarded as Christianity and water.
Report comment to moderator
And back to Santorum … These are the kinds of remarks that I’m afraid will only become a distraction and were probably better left unspoken in the context of a presidential campaign:
http://townhall.com/news/politicselections/2012/02/18/santorum_surges_but_scrutiny_intensifies
My growing sense is simply that Santorum would not make a particularly strong or effective general election candidate.
Report comment to moderator
Reading these posts, I can only hope that the Supreme Court does a better job of understanding and explaining the issue.
It doesn’t matter what the belief is or what theologian follows this or that. It is unconstitutional for the govt. to compromise sincerely held beliefs. No law means no law.
Report comment to moderator
Sails (90):
My point is that neither Warfield nor Niebuhr committed schism. While they were critical of liberal theology, they saw no reason to leave the church. Machen had no choice; he was defrocked–for reasons that had nothing to do with his theological commitments.
Of course, by the 1940s, much had changed. Machen’s OPC had become dominated by Cornelius Van Til and his followers, who rejected the theology of Old Princeton in favor of the Christian transformationalism of Kuyper and Dooyeweerd. It was at that point that Edwin Rian repented and returned to the mother kirk. Had he lived, I suspect that Machen would eventually have left the OPC and returned to the church of his nurturing, the Southern PCUS, which would have welcomed him back with open arms. Meanwhile, there had been a resurgence in orthodoxy within mainline Presbyterian communions, as the Christ-centered theology of Karl Barth took root in place of the liberalism that Machen had criticized. Had Barth taken hold in the US in the 30s instead of the 40s, I suspect that there would never have been an OPC.
My point is this: For Warfield, Machen, and Niebuhr, ecclesiology was not about enforcing ideological purity. That’s a view of ecclesiology that owes itself to fundamentalism, and which was also adopted by Carl Henry and the neo-evangelicals of the 1950s.
I’ve recently been reading Charles Murray’s new book, “Coming Apart”. Murray would probably argue that the downfall of mainline Protestantism was inevitable. Maybe he’s right. But I certainly think that its downfall was exacerbated by the arising of competing denominations that offered people the opportunity to hang out with people who were more like themselves.
Report comment to moderator
What do you mean?
A great many Christians have sincerely held beliefs against war. Some are pacifists, and some believe wars should only be used defensively and as a last resort (and not, say, to effect regime change in another country, or to prevent another country from getting a nuclear weapon).
Nevertheless they are forced to pay into a system that uses their tax dollars for wars they — in their sincerely held belief — find unjust. Is that unconstitutional?
On the other side, a great many Christians are against abortion. Nevertheless, they are forced to pay into a system that uses their tax dollars to support organizations that perform abortions. Is that unconstitutional?
Christian Scientists have a sincerely held belief that immunization is wrong. Nevertheless, they are forced to pay into a system that uses their tax dollars to immunize children. Is that unconstitutional?
And Catholics, of course, believe contraception is a sin. Is it then unconstitutional to require Catholics to pay into a system that covers contraception?
I ask those questions because I think your standard — if you have a sincerely held belief then it is unconstitutional to require you to pay into the system — is too broad. It would mean nobody ever had to pay taxes.
Report comment to moderator
Donna J, at 91, much as I admire Santorum, I’m not sure he is the best Republican to deal with the paramount issue facing the country, namely whether we can bring federal government spending including “entitlements” under control.
The hard reality is that federal government spending is dangerously out of control, to the point that sometime, probably before 2016, a Treasury debt auction will fail or flounder, much like those recently of Greece and Italy, sending financial markets into a tailspin that would likely end in a deep American depression, not just a hard recession.
Santorum is right that the country needs to right its moral course, though his economic proposals don’t come close to dealing with the drastic fiscal problem. He is essentially a moralist and lawyer with limited economic wisdom.
Romney is a smart businessman, though, if you analyze his economic policy, it too is lacking. He doesn’t really seem to understand the depth of what is really a fiscal crisis that will likely occur sometime before at most, 2016.
Only two prominent Republican national Republicans understand the depth of our fiscal crisis, namely Mitch Daniels and Paul Ryan. Of the two, Mitch Daniels has the executive experience and wisdom to best deal with the crisis that he has termed a lethal Red Menace.
Frankly, at this point, we may only hope that Romney and Santorum become stalemated, leading to a brokered convention that nominates Mitch Daniels or Paul Ryan, or possibly Jeb Bush, another fiscally savvy fellow.
Another very real possibility is that Obama gets reelected and is forced to deal with an inevitable fiscal disaster due to his $trillion dollar deficits, likely followed by a depression and a 2016 election that is forced to get real about fiscal matters.
Report comment to moderator
What do I mean? Think about it.
They have passed a law (regulation) that interferes with free exercise. War isn’t in the First Amendment.
Report comment to moderator
Declaring war is a direct power in the Constitution.
Report comment to moderator
Evan, at 93, actually, Warfield, Machen, and Niebuhr presaged what has become the present reality, namely that the Mainline “Christian” churches, including your vaunted Presbyterian one, have abjectly caved to the pieties of the currently dominant secular religjon.
You might have an orthodox Presbyterian church down South, though most of them around the country are essentially in the secular camp.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, how could a brokered convention end with someone who isn’t in the race winning it? I personally don’t even know if that is possible, but certainly don’t think it’s likely. If Daniels wanted to run for the White House, he’d be running.
Report comment to moderator
100!
Report comment to moderator
Sails, the PCA and some others are still strong, at least in most churches.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl,at 99,, I hope you’re right. Living in Massachusetts, as i do, most Presbyterian churches that I know of are solidly in the secular camp favoring such such politically correct goodies as abortion, sodomy, no fault divorce, fornication, and assorted other evils.
Report comment to moderator
Excuse me, Cheryl, in the above at 102, I referred to your 98.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, I know that a lot of Presbyterian denominations aren’t really churches anymore. But some of us are holding firm; pray that we continue to.
Report comment to moderator
Neither is contraception in the First Amendment. But that’s irrelevant, because you’re making a very broad claim about the extent of the First Amendment that would encompass both war and contraception and a great many other things.
You seem to be applying a very broad interpretation of the First Amendment: the government can pass no law or regulation which spends public money on something that is against some citizens’ religion.
If that were the case, the government could not build roads because of the Amish, or pay for vaccinations because of the Christian Scientists, or build Predator drones because of the Quakers, or offer low-cost contraceptives to poor women because of the Catholics, or fund women’s programs that offend Muslims, or spend a dime of public money supporting Christian charities because of the Muslims and Jews and atheists, etc. Spending public money on something you’re against, or making a regulation about something you’re against, cannot be the standard for “making a law respecting the establishment of religion.”
Report comment to moderator
#82 Arcadia I agree that it’s strong but if you do an in-depth study of Mormonism, using their own historical documents, you’ll be trembling as I am. God will not be mocked on this issue. As Cheryl wrote earlier Mormons are under a curse because they preach a false Gospel. Read Galatians 1 and 2 John. As Christians we are required to defend the faith.
Report comment to moderator
A brokered convention could occur if no single candidate reaches the convention with enough delegates for an outright nomination on a first ballot.
In that case, the dealing begins. Delegates can be freed (though I’m not sure who makes that call) to transfer loyalties and a new candidate could merge out of that. It’s the way conventions used to operate, but not for a very long time now so it would be unusual (and it remains unlikely) but fun to watch.
There would be a lot of behind-the-scenes deals being made in what would be a power struggle. But it’s also possible that a fresh consensus candidate — like a MItch Daniels or a Paul Ryan, who previously have taken their names out of the running — could be persuaded to step into the fray.
Seriously, I think at this point, as unlikely as it sounds, it might wind up being the only hope.
Report comment to moderator
It will be interesting to watch Michigan later this month. Romney, by rights, should win that primary. But Santorum now is leading in the polls and if he takes it in an upset, that would not bode well for Romney as “Super Tuesday” approaches.
Report comment to moderator
I don’t know of any NAPARC church that favors abortion, sodomy, no fault divorce, or fornication. I doubt notes from any Synod could be supplied to demonstrate they do.
Report comment to moderator
need a like button for 105
Report comment to moderator
I need an applause button for 109 disputing one of the more bizarre charges concocted in any thread of my memory.
Report comment to moderator
Donna, my hunch is if it goes to a brokered convention, they won’t want to pull out a new name “nobody has heard of.” If all the standard candidates have been too bloodied, possibly they’ll pull somebody from outside, but I suspect it would be someone better known than Mitch Daniels or other candidates who’ve been mentioned. Someone without baggage. Me, I think I’d love to see Daniels in there, or Paul (or Rand Paul), or someone other than Romney or Gingrich. But I have a hunch the Democrats are thoroughly enjoying this boxing match in which their man gets to rest and then play a tired, beaten-up, limping winner.
Report comment to moderator
Mac, at 109, I wasn’t speaking of the rather assorted, though admirable NAPARC churches; rather of PCUSA that has by far the overwhelming number of members of the Presbyterian church. Let us not play word games here.
Louise, exactly what are the more bizarre charges?
Report comment to moderator
If I may speak for Louse, given the context of the discussion above, it wasn’t too clear you were talking only about the PCUSA, Sails. No word games. Let’s not be babies.
Report comment to moderator
Speak for yourself Mac, neither you nor Louise made any attempt to qualify your remarks in context of the discussion at hand. Had you done so, I should have been glad to praise the NAPARC churches.
Report comment to moderator
Even in the PCUSA, there are plenty of churches that are very much opposed to the liberal agenda of the denominational leaders. They just happen to be small churches in rural areas where they have little influence. My husband and his fellow conservative pastors and elders from other small towns go to presbytery meetings and try to stand for what they believe is right, but there is more representation from the larger churches in the big cities, and the conservatives are out-voted.
My husband used to say he would leave the PCUSA if they ever approved ordaining practicing homosexuals. But when it came to that point, one or two of his colleagues from other small-town churches convinced him that the small, conservative churches needed pastors like him to lead them.
Report comment to moderator
Well, Daniels and Ryan and others are hardly unknowns. They were heavily courted to run, said no, but things change. In many ways, I think these guys were on the top of most people’s list — but we were left with what we were left with, the usual suspects.
Either way, my sense is that the GOP is just letting this one slip through their fingers.
Report comment to moderator
As in, it’s probably too late to “fix” things now anyway.
But maybe that’s just me. I’m not feeling very optimistic these days.
Report comment to moderator
I’ll speak for all of us, ol’ Sails. You didn’t give any impression above (and the context didn’t indicate) that you were excluding denominations.
You’re kind of grouchy.
Report comment to moderator
Pauline, at 116, God love your husband for quietly but firmly standing up up to the liberal theological onslaught. Pastors like your husband are far more courageous than those who move on to more conservative churches.
Personally, I am an 11th generation Congregationalist in our local church involved in an ongoing civil but firm attempt to hold this church to reasonably traditional Christian doctrines, something that’s far from easy. I’m tempted to join a local Missouri Synod Lutheran church, though from a combination of stubbornness and inertia I’m hanging in there.
Report comment to moderator
Sails, pastors who stay in drifting denominations can still exert influence; parishioners often cannot, and they also risk exposing their own children to error in God’s name. In other words, it may indeed be more “courageous” to stay, but it isn’t always the right decision. I’d think it would take time with God to know whether to stay or go.
Two of my closest friends are married to men who have chosen to stay in the United Methodist denomination; in both cases the wives (with permission) are attending a church that is more theologically sound, while the husbands stay but hold little influence. (Neither is a pastor.) At some point a Christian may need to say, “This is not a church; it only calls itself one. I’m getting my family out.” Again, pastors may make a different choice, and parishioners in strong churches may make a different choice. But I really don’t think I’d judge someone who leaves a “church” that doesn’t honor Jesus Christ; at some point that is the bottom line.
Report comment to moderator
Donna, Daniels and Ryan aren’t unknown to those who keep up with conservative politics–but I think they’re rather unknown to a huge percentage of Ameircan voters, including independents. That might well prove to be a good thing–people who want to vote against Obama but don’t want to vote for any of the current crop of candidates might well be brought back into the voting column. But it also might mean that there’s too little name recognition to make much traction. People tend to “vote for” known names in our culture, whether it’s buying a known brand of applesauce or voting for an incumbent.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, that’s true I suppose. It would be a very short vetting period, but one that would see a substantial amount of money perhaps as backers from the other (failed) candidates came onboard.
Probably an unlikely scenario. But I don’t have a lot of confidence right now that any of the current candidates could mount a successful campaign against the incumbent.
Report comment to moderator
Me neither. I think they all have “baggage,” whether of their own making (Gingrich, Romney) or of being too far outside the mainstream to be “acceptable” to most voters (Santorum, Paul). But I’d be happy enough with Santorum, I think, if he’s the nominee.
Report comment to moderator
I have liked Santorum as well, but he’s making some huge strategic mistakes at this stage which really does make me question his wisdom and preparedness for the presidency.
He was pretty much raked over the coals today by the conservatives at pwoerlineblog. And while I’m obviously sympathetic to a lot of Santorum’s cultural views, the way he’s handling his race is just plain suicidal.
I’m going to go cry now.
Here’s the link followed by a snippet of the post:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/02/are-there-republicans-who-think-this-is-a-good-idea-seriously.php
“With Santorum launching one social issues bomb after another, there is no time to talk about the economy. Is this the Democratic Party’s dream, or what? In a national poll that came out today, Santorum is leading Mitt Romney by eight points among likely Republican voters. Can Republicans possibly be that foolish? Is it conceivable that a president with Obama’s lousy record could coast to victory, virtually by default, because the Republicans nominate a candidate who would rather talk about gynecology than debt? At the moment, that prospect does not seem far-fetched.”
Report comment to moderator
Agreed, Donna. I personally would love to have a president with high standards . . . but a president had sure better understand that our finances will sink us any moment now!
Report comment to moderator
I’ll take my chance at this lateness of discussion and hour to chime back in at the end of the Lord’s Day and before I catch up on posts since #114 or so (my screen doesn’t show 3-digit #s).
I appreciate that and thank you Mac, precisely my dilemma in that it was not at all clear to me per the baffling 109 reference. So, putting that much aside, I value Sails comments and hope that we’ll all hold true to the same Word of God in 21st century applications while the secular world seeks perfection through its own coercive utopians. We know that’s whre our battle lies and which is actually the Lord’s.
That was a short comment interrupted from much earlier this afternoon, as good as deleted by now. How much of it really matters?
Report comment to moderator
What is not in the Constitution is any justification for forcing American taxpayers to buy some woman’s controceptives, or ALL women’s constraceptives either.
Sheesh.
Report comment to moderator
Or forcing insurance companies to pay for them too. Such forcing is all far worse than people of faith deciding for themselves whether to use them or not or even trying to freely persuade others regarding their use.
Report comment to moderator
Donna J,
I went to that link you provided and I don’t agree with you. Reading the transcript, Bob Shiefer was the one who seemed clueless to me. Rick Santorum comes off fine when he speaks for himself. And the writer of that power line article was biased against Santorum from the very start. If fact, he lost me when he used the word “ludicrous” about Santorum’s candidacy and he did not give sound reason for his emotive knee-jerk opinion.
We can do better than these critics. Rick Santorum rises above them all in my estimation.
Report comment to moderator
I think the powerline critics are correct on this one — this has become a complete distraction. Santorum’s allowed himself to be dragged into a losing debate with the wider culture; it’s political suicide. I don’t know what else to say.
We may agree with him on some (most/all?) of these issues. But I think it shows a complete lack of wisdom for the candidate to take off talking about Obama’s “theology” and how contraception has harmed women.
Now I’ll say it: Sheesh.
This is turning into a comedy (or is it a tragedy?) of errors.
Report comment to moderator
(my screen doesn’t show 3-digit #s).
———————————————-
Do you have a compatibility view icon on top of the page next to the refresh icon? Click it.
Report comment to moderator
Or you could browse with FireFox. Which also underlines miss-spelled words as you’re typing.
Report comment to moderator
I’m with Donna on this one.
I watched the Schieffer interview. It was nothing short of a long, slow train wreck. Further, it wasn’t as though Schieffer was asking him about comments he’d made years ago: the interview focused exclusively on stupid comments that Santorum had made within the previous 24 hours!
What’s worse is that the whole discussion was completely avoidable. Santorum should have apologized quickly for questioning the President’s Christian faith. But he didn’t. Instead, he offered an awkward justification that was rambling and incoherent. And on the prenatal health issue, Santorum had the opportunity to clarify his statements and convince voters that he wasn’t just pushing a women-as-chattel vision of family life. Santorum fumbled the ball on this one too.
It’s looking more and more like we’re going to get four more years of President Obama. That says a lot about the state of the GOP…that it can’t seamlessly nominate a candidate who can compete effectively with one of the worst Presidents of the past 50 years. And I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of evangelical Christians–who seem to believe that we can restore our economy by denying women access to contraceptives and by engaging in discussions about an advocate of liberation theology is more of a heretic than a Papist.
Report comment to moderator
I wish he would of used the word “Worldview” instead of theology. Then he could make a clear contrast between worldviews.
I’ll lay the blame for a landslide Obama victory squarely on the feet of the 50% of the population that receive a Gov. check each month. They know(at least the ones that I’ve talked to) that the country can’t keep going on like it is, but they are not ready to give up that check just yet. They will be even less ready in another 4 yrs, but it’s impossible to reason with people that think only to the end of this week.
Report comment to moderator
“…denying women access to contraceptives…
Isn’t it bizarre how this language has been assumed? As if some law was passed that actually did deny women access to contraceptives. You have to admire the artfulness.
Report comment to moderator
The conversation here is indicative of the larger divide that is tearing the Republican party apart.
Some like Santorum precisely because he takes a strong conservative stance on social issues. Fair enough.
Some agree with Santorum’s socially conservative stances, but wish he’d talk less about it so he can get elected in the general. This I find troubling and even dishonest. The American people should know whom they’re electing. No “sleeper agents” for President, please. I actually like about Santorum that he is honest and straightforward about his views. Romney has a serious deficiency in this area (maybe because he doesn’t really have views beyond those required to win the next contest).
Some (none on this blog that I’m aware of) think Santorum’s social conservatism is backwards foolishness that will lose Republicans the election, which is really all about setting a pro-business and anti-regulation agenda. These are the establishment Republicans and big muckety-mucks.
Some have allied themselves with the Republican party because they think it only slightly better than the Democratic party on issues of individual liberty, and Santorum is exactly the sort of candidate that represents all that is wrong with the Republican party.
That is the current civil war.
If Santorum gets the nomination, Obama will trounce him. Nothing will motivate liberals and swing independents like the idea that this upcoming election is about whether women ought to have access to birth control or be allowed to serve in the military.
Report comment to moderator
And one more note about the overwhelming unelectability of Rick Santorum.
The very top “issue” on the “issues” page of his website:
Top spot. Issue #1.
Indicative of two things: (1) Santorum is running primarily as a social conservative who will use the power of the federal government to enforce conservative social norms, and (2) the “great middle” of American voters will not vote for this man.
Report comment to moderator
Donna J,
Are you one who (like John McCain last time) believes that the candidate and his supporters should not mention Obama’s close relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his hateful phoney church? A lot of decent people thought that way and I just think its strategicly wrong. Kudos to Rick Santorum for telling the truth!!!
So, I think the Powerline critics are strategicly wrong (a respectful disagreement) and the last major election proved that.
Report comment to moderator
(#139) Nope, I was not particularly wild about John McCain. I can’t even remember who else was running in ‘08, to be honest. But I was less-than “wowed” by the nominee though I voted for him and hoped he’d manage to pull it out.
And I think Obama was given an outright pass on the Rev. Wright and so many other issues by most of the media and most of the electorate. No one seemed to care all that much. I shook my head in disbelief over the inane and silly “Obama-mania” that seemed to sweep the country.
Unbelievably — and sadly — there was no stopping that train and now we’ve all paid a heavy price.
(However, I did hope that Obama might do better than he has; and I’d hoped, too, that he and his family might be drawn to a church that really did preach the gospel once they were away from their Chicago roots. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, hoping that perhaps they were simply “stuck” in a very bad church. But for a candidate now to publicly criticize Obama’s personal “theology,” whatever that is or isn’t, seems to be crossing the line of presumption.)
So this is my take on Santorum as of now (it may change): As Evan pointed out, Santorum appears incapable of directing even his own message. Floundering, he finds himself mired in rambling explanations of his social views (which, though many of us here are clearly simpatico with, are at odds with the vast majority of our fellow citizens).
There’s a time & place (and a way) to discuss these issues which I think are important; in the middle of a presidential campaign in which the nation is on the brink of bankruptcy probably isn’t one of them.
Nobody thinks contraception is a key 2012 issue, I’m sorry. For good or ill, that train left the station in the 1960s. (Though it’s clearly been in the news again as a result of the government’s strong-armed tactic in forcing Catholic agencies to violate their religious conscience on the matter — and that’s clearly a battle worth fighting.)
Strategically, Obama’s primary weakness — as perceived by a majority of Americans — is his failure to deal with the economy. We’re sinking and we’re sinking fast. And it’s getting more than scary.
For a GOP candidate to allow himself to get caught up talking endlessly about issues like contraception, etc., will only make *most* Americans think that maybe Obama isn’t so out of touch after all.
At this point, I think Santorum would be creamed in a general election. And then it’ll be four more years of what we’ve had — and perhaps then too late to ever get this economy or anything else back on track.
In short, we need a conservative who majors in the economy (but who still holds socially conservative values — someone who can present them in a winsome way and who will appoint good, smart, conservative people).
Santorum, I’m afraid, has now effectively been defined — fairly or not, but in part it’s his own inability to present a broader, more coherent message — as the “anti-contraception” candidate.
Report comment to moderator
JJF, at the end of #138 wrote two things. The first is a falsehood and the second is just wrong in my opinion.
1. Santorum is not just “running” as a social conservative, he genuinely is one. But it is misleading to claim he will “use the power of the federal government to enforce conservative social norms.” The enforces on social issues are mostly on the left. Santorum will oppose the enforcers on the left and that’s what has them making false claims about him. Santorum will not violate the “we the people” principle to push his convictions of faith.
2. I think the America people are sick and tired of the enforcement agenda of the left to “fundamentally change” the social norms of America by using the force of gov’t and judges. The “great middle” of American voters will support this man. But if not, then we deserve what we get.
Report comment to moderator
And I don’t mean to leave the impression that I think social issues are secondary.
They absolutely are not. These issues are hugely important to me and to the survival of our nation. But my sense is that it’ll take much more than an election to bring this country back, nothing short of a spiritual awakening. These are changes that happen from the bottom up, though a good leader can offer much influence.
A president can appoint judges who will be pro-life; judges who will be strong defenders of religious liberty. This is vital.
But it won’t ultimately change the hearts of the people all around us who are so adrift, calling good evil and evil good.
“Fixing” all of that can’t be done in a presidential election. Our moral decay hasn’t occurred overnight (though sometimes it seems like it’s been almost that swift!).
At the least, the person we elect will be in a position perhaps to stem the negative tide.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Donna J.
I agree with what Santorum said about Obama’s theology. I also admire Santorum’s straight-forward way of saying what we all know is true (even if the “intelligentsia” doesn’t like it).
It reminds me of Reagan’s willingness to call the USSR an “evil empire.” All the experts reamed him for that (did I spell “reamed” right?). Reagan stuck with what he knew was true.
But Donna, I don’t agree that Santorum has allowed himself to get “caught up talking endlessly about issues like contraception.” That’s just not fair. The left-steam media does this and it is silly to blame Santorum for what the media does and will keep doing. But Santorum has every right and obligation to make responses.
I think Santorum will win if nominated.
Report comment to moderator
I don’t say otherwise. In fact I said in #137, ” I actually like about Santorum that he is honest and straightforward about his views.”
Look at the issues page of Santorum’s website. Issue #1: Pornography. Click “read more.”
That is using the power of the federal government to enforce conservative social norms.
Report comment to moderator
I’m quite sure you’re wrong. Maybe we’ll get a chance to see.
For now, anyway, Obama is, on average, 7.5 points above Santorum in head-to-head polls.
Report comment to moderator
Paul Shepard @#18: The feminist movement has done more to destroy the stability of families than any other paradigm shift in history (emasculating the genuine male and robbing women of their right to femininity in exchange for gender equality)
I am copying your entire post and keeping it. Please say more, often.
The press is doing their job vetting the next possible president. Unfortunately, they only do it to Conservatives. Had they been this conscientious with Mr. Obama, voters would have known what a radical they were getting and exactly what a radical is.
Under such fire, I don’t find it odd that no Republican candidate can seem to hold up and maintain. They mention one aspect here, we all go down different trails, from Mormonism to birth control to the respectability of the faith of the Protestant movement. I don’t think this is bad – it’s people processing who would be the best next president, and it’s people processing what happens after a grenade explodes. Exploding grenades do expose things, down to the ground. They also disrupt, confuse and kill. The mainstream media uses PR bullet-point questions for the left and throws grenades at the right. What’re you going to do?
Report comment to moderator
And it’s all still leading to continued talk of an alternative to “all of the above”:
“Indiana GOP Chairman Eric Holcomb, one of Gov. Daniels’s closest advisers, revealed to POLITICO that ‘the whispers have become shouts, the knocks on [Daniels’s] door have become fist pounding.’ ”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73070.html
Report comment to moderator
I’m watching Brit Hume right now, he’s expressing exactly what I’ve been thinking regarding Santorum.
Report comment to moderator
The following statement (article & video link below) at a recent congressional hearing by Dr. Allisan Garrett, Senior VP for Academic Affairs at Oklahoma Christian University, closes the case for good:
http://www.oc.edu/news/allison-garrett-appears-at-congressional-hearing
Report comment to moderator
FIVES55 132 – Thank you! That took care of it
Report comment to moderator
Joel, thanks much for the link at 150 that does indeednial the issue,
For an excellent defense of Sanatorium see Rirch Lowry’s article,The Effrontery of Rick Santorum: The media can’t tolerate social conservatism. including:
Although his critics will never credit him for it, Santorum’s social conservatism brings with it an unstinting devotion to human dignity, a touchstone for the former senator. The latest position for which he’s taking incoming is his opposition to a government mandate for insurance coverage of prenatal testing often used to identify handicapped babies who are subsequently aborted. For his detractors, his respect for the disabled is trumped by his unforgivable opposition to abortion….
As Jeffrey Bell, author of the new book The Case for Polarized Politics, notes in a Wall Street Journal interview, Santorum’s style of social conservatism is deeply American. No other Western country saw the rise of such a social-conservative movement after the social upheaval of the 1960s. Bell traces American social conservatism back ultimately to the God-given natural rights enunciated in the Declaration of Independence. Sure enough, Santorum is given to quoting the Declaration.
Report comment to moderator
On the other hand John Podheretz in an article today claima that Santorum’s problem is not social conservatism, rather that he’s an unelectable sourpuss, the article is Here
Report comment to moderator
From townhall:
” ‘There is something called agenda control,’ said one unaffiliated GOP strategist. ‘Santorum does not have it. Instead of talking about the economy, he’s been going down rabbit holes for the last four or five days.’ Santorum’s emphasis on cultural issues may intensify his conservative and evangelical support and help him win the nomination … The fear is he may also be narrowing his support in a general election population. …
“Mitt Romney’s inability to close the deal has also raised eyebrows – and angst. And the anxiety will only intensify should Romney lose his home state of Michigan in the primary on February 28, several senior Republicans told CNN. ‘Michigan is the whole shooting match,’ said one senior GOP strategist not aligned with a campaign. Says another: ‘If Romney loses Michigan, all hell breaks loose.’ Given that real possibility, one knowledgeable GOP source confirms that some Republicans are circulating the deadlines and the basic math that would allow another candidate to get into the nomination fight and take it all the way to the convention … ”
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2012/02/21/if_romney_loses_michigan_all_hell_breaks_loose
Report comment to moderator
Santorum may be a social conservative but he was a big pork barreler when he was in the Senate during the Bush 2 era when the size of government exploded and the deficit began to explode with it. He got slaughtered in his last election bid. Interesting to me that guys like Santorum, Boehner, McConnell, Cantor, etc. were there during Bush 2 and now they want to cut spending and without saying how. Did they have a come to Jesus moment like Newt or is it the same old GOP hypocrisy that started with Nixon.
Report comment to moderator
#159 Joel I’ll bet that 99% of the female staff at that university are using contraception. BTW, I agree that the president’s position is clearly wrong but let’s be realistic. Most Catholic and Evangelical women use contraception but the religious institutions just want them to pay for it themselves. Right?
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's Community section to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!